LIV Ratings, PGA Tour Telecast Changes, and Other Golf-on-TV Topics

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a.

00:00:06
Speaker 2: Bride Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg.

00:00:11
Speaker 1: Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

00:00:23
Speaker 3: And Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today we're talking about various happenings in the world of golf broadcasting. We're going to discuss Live's new deal with the CEDW and how that's working out so far, as well as the recent changes that CBS and NBC have made to their PGA Tour telecasts. My guest is Josh Carpenter. Josh is an assistant Managing editor at SPA Orts Business Journal SBJ breaks a lot of news at the intersection of sports and business. You may be familiar with the work of Josh's colleague John Rand, who does a lot of reporting around media rights deals that has become very relevant in this new age of the war between the PGA Tour and Live Now. Josh, in addition to knowing the sports business landscape very very well, is a golf nut. He's a presence on golf Twitter and somebody I've gotten to know through that. I think that this is really a hinge year in golf broadcasting. I think Josh agrees with me about this. You've got Live with its first US media deal, and it's a bit of a strange one with the CW. You know that people know the CW primarily for teen dramas like One Tree Hill, and you know, back in the WB days it was Dawson's Creek, and you know that's what you go to the CW or the WB for. You don't go there for this breakaway golf fleague. But it that deal might make a little more sense than you think it makes, and Josh and I will discuss that in this episode. Now, in addition to all of that, you've got the PGA Tour entering a new era with designated events and also a new era in terms of its media rights deal. They made this deal with NBCCBS and ESPN in twenty twenty. But the results of that deal, the kind of after effects of it, are only really becoming apparent. Now. Things are starting to slide into place and the broadcasting networks are making some serious changes to the way that they show golf on TV. So that's another big subject that I want to touch on with Josh. Now, this past week, Live had its first event at Mayacoba, and it went head to head with the PGA Tour's Honda Classic, which is the first event that I think felt truly non designated. There have been non designated events so far this year, you know, the American Express was clearly not designated the Farmer's Insurance Open, but the Honda Classic came between the Genesis Invitational and this week's Arnold Palmer Invitational, so it was really non designated. There were no top fifteen players in the world at the Honda Classic at PGA National this week, and so I think it was our first opportunity to see what a non designated event truly felt like. And in addition to that, it was going up right against the Live season opener, so it was sort of a big week for the battle between the PGA Tour and Live and also for all these questions around golf broadcasting that I've wanted to talk about for a while on the podcast, and that I think Josh Carpenter is the perfect person to dig into with. So We're going to start off by talking about how this past weekend went for both Live and the PGA Tour, and then we're going to dive into the specifics of Live's media and business strategies. There's a lot of different dynamics here with what Live is trying to do, a lot of unknowns and a lot of really really interesting stuff, so we'll get into that. Then we'll discuss some of the changes that are happening with PGA Tour broadcasts in this new age of designated events. So that's all ahead, Let's just throw it to me and Josh Carpenter. All right, So, Josh, there was a bit of a ratings battle this past week between the Honda Classic on Golf Channel and NBC and the first live event of the year at Mayacoba on the CEDW. How did that battle turn out?

00:04:44
Speaker 2: You know, on the surface, and I forget the exact numbers, I think Live was at about, you know, in the two hundred and eighty five the two hundred and ninety thousand range on the CEDW both Saturday and Sunday, because of course they're broadcasts are only on the app on Fridays, right, So that wasn't rated by Nielsen and the PGA Tour, you know, was was well above that. So yeah, on the surface, I think, you know, if you want to compare those, fine, it makes for good Twitter fodder and you know, golf Twitter was all over it this morning.

00:05:17
Speaker 1: That's that's great.

00:05:19
Speaker 2: It is a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Just you know, if you look at the two entities, you've got the Tour, which has been around for a long long time. They've built up this reputation. They're on NBC right, very popular, and I'll even say, like, I think the tours broadcast from Honda was actually down seven percent from last year, right, So that got a little bit swept under the rug this morning, and a lot of the you know, the reporting and everyone wants to just show Live versus the PGA Tour. As for Live, like you could look at their numbers and say they might view it as a positive not compared to the PGA Tour, but compared to what they were drawing on YouTube last year, you know, and they are like, yes, they're bankrolled by the PIFF and have billions of dollars at their disposal, but it is a second year entity and it's their first broadcast on broadcast TV, so drawing in the two.

00:06:14
Speaker 1: Hundred ninety thousand range.

00:06:16
Speaker 2: You know, we reported this morning, Yes there were a lot of sports telecasts that it did not measure up to, but there were also plenty airing on some of the ESPN networks other sports centric networks that Live did beat out, you know, So I think there's just a couple of ways you can look at it. When I reported the numbers this morning, like I kind of just presented them.

00:06:37
Speaker 1: I didn't.

00:06:38
Speaker 2: I did present them side by side, right, so people could get a gauge. But you know, it's kind of tough to say that the tour walloped Live just on the surface. You got to dig a little bit deeper.

00:06:50
Speaker 3: Well, you can let people on Twitter say that the PGA Tour walloped to Live and just leave it at that, even if it's even if that's not really the conclusion we can draw. So before we get further into this past week, because I think this past week was interesting, maybe we should just do a little rundown on the deal that Live Golf made with the SEEDW that produced the State of Affairs where Live is now airing on the CW app on weekdays and on the weekends on the SEEDW channel, which people of my generation may be most familiar with as the WB, the network that used to air Dawson's Creek and you know other such shows. So it's a little bit funny that Live is showing up on this network now, but it it may make a little more sense than people think. So what was the nature of this deal, the media rights deal between Live and this network.

00:07:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I forget the length of the deal. I think it's I think it's in the two year range. So it's not like a long term deal that you would see, you know, a very established network sign or a very established league sign with it with a network like an NBC or Fox or something like that. But I think just getting this deal done in year two for LIV on the surface as a win.

00:08:06
Speaker 1: Just if you think about it.

00:08:07
Speaker 2: It's the CW as many jokes are made about it for Judge Judy airing on it and you know all that stuff. It is a major broadcast network, it's not a cable network. It you know, is in one hundred and twenty million households. So that's one of the things that you know, Greg Norman and co. Kind of set out last year and they said we're gonna sign a broadcast deal. I think, you know, early reporting and what most people thought is when they said something like that, they're thinking they're gonna sign with Fox. So they're gonna sign with you know, Honestly, there weren't a lot of other opportunities just because all those other networks between CBS, NBC, ESPN.

00:08:43
Speaker 1: What are they what are they tied up in?

00:08:45
Speaker 2: They're tied up with a PGA tour, right, So LIV couldn't really sign with with those networks. So the CW was an interesting choice for sure. But I mean, like I said, they're a broadcast network. Most people have it. Like I personally can't get the seed. I'm an extreme cord cutter, and so I had just have like antennas to draw in my TV signal and I looked for it this week and then I wasn't able to pick it up. But that might just be because I have an old antenna.

00:09:11
Speaker 3: You know.

00:09:11
Speaker 2: I was watching on on I downloaded the app, I watched it on there, And as far as that, I mean, it was a pretty seamless experience. It was easy to open up and go from there. I mean it it was pretty simple. But I think that's the nature behind this deal. They wanted to be in that many homes, you know, so that they could show like we're on a big network, We're in hundreds of millions of homes.

00:09:34
Speaker 3: Could you just speak generally about why a network like the CW, which is associated with other kinds of programming, not sports programming at this point, why the CW would want to get into live sports, Why that would be such an important move for them that they would end up going with a kind of upstart, very new league like live golf.

00:09:54
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, honestly, here, if you look at TV ratings week in week out, if you at the reports that come on every Monday and Tuesday, the highest rated events every single week are sports broadcast. And usually it's far in a way. I mean, occasionally you'll have some original programming on a major network that does well, but by and large, those live sports are the bread and butter of every network. So anytime in a smaller network like the Seed, and I say smaller even though they're in one hundred and twenty million homes, you know, if they're wanting to build out, then then yeah, like live sports is kind of a maybe the way to go. And honestly, I'm not sure what other live sports rights are available at this point. You look at other emerging sports right now, like pickleball, like, I don't know, I'm blanking on some others, but I mean, you know, live is kind of it's an emerging entity. It's not a new sport, right Obviously, Golf's went around for you know, a really long time, but Live has kind of a new twist on things from the team aspect, from all that. So that would be my best guess as to why, you know, CW would want to get in on live just because because you know, live sports are are what they are. I mean, you'll see every weekend it's like a sports league will come out and their numbers will come out on Monday or Tuesday, and everyone says, oh, man, such and such is down ten percent from this time last year. Yeah, but it's still the you know, the biggest, the biggest guy in the room. It's still drawing well outdrawing everything else on TV in most cases.

00:11:30
Speaker 1: So to me, that has to.

00:11:32
Speaker 2: Be one of the key reasons why why CW would kind of get in on Live.

00:11:37
Speaker 3: And is this in part an effect that this value of live sports that exists now. Is this in part an effect of the streaming revolution, where you know, platforms like Netflix and Disney Plus have really put out scripted programming that has had more of an impact than what the networks and the cable channels are putting out right now. And so what the networks and the cable channels have left basically is live sports. Because Netflix right now, you know, there were some rumors about them getting into F one broadcasts, but right now, streaming platforms are not really big in live sports, whereas the networks and cable channels are. So is that why we're in this place where live sports are so valuable that a network like the CW is trying to get into it.

00:12:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, potentially.

00:12:25
Speaker 2: It's actually a little bit of a mix and what we're seeing right now, Like some like Netflix, for example, has put a big emphasis on docky series like Full Swing, like Drive to Survive, like the tennis series that just that just came out The New York Times were in a piece last week or the week orfore on. How like you know, Netflix is among these streamers, like let's lump them in the same group with Amazon with Apple, right, Netflix has kind of stayed away from live sports, while if you look at Apple, Apple has live rights to some MLB games. They just did a huge deal with MLS to air you know, UH to air MLS every season. Amazon with their involvement with the NFL airing Thursday Night football and that sort of thing. So yeah, I think certainly, like as far as Liv's numbers do they report, you'll see you'll see like what was reported today, Let's let's be clear, linear TV ratings, that's our TV. I don't even say ratings, viewership, that's all linear that was reported today. Live still has the CW app that'll be separated out from what was reported today, the UH Live Golf Plus app that that they rolled out last week right before the tournament started. How viewers can you know, people can watch worldwide, that'll all be split out. And so I think streaming certainly is going to be a big part of this, and that might be a way that you know, if they're if they're linear TV numbers aren't that great initially, you know, I think you might see Live come out and be able to say, well, we drew x amount of viewers on Live Golf Plus worldwide or x amount of viewers on the CW app or you know, Greg Norman was posting on social media this past week about how, you know, the Live Plus app was one of the most highest downloaded apps on the Apple Store. So I think that's kind of how that linear versus streaming thing will kind of intertwine. Another thing, like we reported the NBC numbers today on Honda that didn't include any of their streaming, whether it's across Golf Channel or Peacock or whatever. So it'll really be interesting to see, Garrett kind of what the reporting structure on viewership is, say in five years. You know, John put out a zero point two overnight rating for Live earlier in the week. We haven't I think, you know that was put out mainly it was just kind of the first like concrete number around a live broadcast, and so it was good to put it out. But like those are very prelimited. Not to get too into the weeds, but like overnight rating, just see an event happen on Sunday and then on Monday the rating or something like that. Those are so preliminary, and you know, Nielsen kind of changed the way they rate things a few years ago. We used to report, you know, Monday, we would report NFL overnights from a Sunday of games five years ago. We don't even report those anymore because of the way some of the metrics have changed. So it'll be interesting to see in a few years what that reporting looks like, just from how all the all the different ways you can watch something is kind of lumped together.

00:15:31
Speaker 3: Right, No doubt there will be a new method. Nielsen ratings have been around for a while and perhaps are a little bit a little bit outdated. But as you said, your colleague John Rand at Sports Business Journal sent out a tweet that went kind of semi viral where he said oof. He started with the word oof, a point two overnight rating for live golf in the twenty six metered markets that carried it on the CW. And so you've introduced some nuance into what that point two numbers can tell us and can't tell us. But I want to be clear here, that's not good, right, that that just number alone, Like, that's not good at all.

00:16:08
Speaker 1: One, it's not good.

00:16:11
Speaker 2: You know, a zero point two like you got a factor and like you said, the twenty six markets, not all affiliates where you saw various people saying, oh, my channel in San Francisco or the ex channel in Philadelphia was not even carrying.

00:16:26
Speaker 1: The event this weekend.

00:16:28
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of a double edged sword. Like Live signed this deal with the CW, I guess knowing that some of these affiliates could could opt out, which in turn could hurt their could hurt their numbers. So yeah, I want to be clear like the like you said, the zero point two not a good rating. I don't know how many people on golf Twitter know if you just went to them last week and said, what's a zero point two rating? They would have no idea what that meant. I mean you could say that you know, obviously it's not a ten or something like that, but yeah, it's it's not a great start. But like I said, I think you just have to kind of look at it from a thirty thousand foot view and see, you know, the different factors at play.

00:17:10
Speaker 3: Okay, so you mentioned some of the problems with local CW affiliates opting out of airing Live. My code, but I'm not sure that this is going to continue. But there were some pretty big markets for the CW that did not air Live. Do you think that that's a substantial threat for Live right now, that these local affiliates for the CW could just choose not to air it.

00:17:35
Speaker 2: It could be it could be a week one thing where some of these affiliates wanted to opt out and see what the numbers look like, and then you know, in a month when they when Live is in Tucson, they say, well, we'll put them on because maybe anything, I'd have to look and see what the CW is airing in past, you know, past kind of timeframes that they Live event aired, So maybe maybe they see that, well, Live did a lot better than you know, something else that we air in that time slot. Maybe when they're in Tucson, they'll they'll be they'll decide to air Live. I'm not sure exactly how that works, Like they opt out for week one, if that means that they're done for the entire season, I wouldn't think that would be the case.

00:18:12
Speaker 1: So that'll be interesting to see.

00:18:14
Speaker 2: I think one thing to think about too with Live's ratings going forward. Golf dot Com reported this a couple of weeks back, that all of their international events basically are going to be on tape delay, So you could have an event, you know, airing in Jetta in the middle of the night, Well that's not going to air until many hours later on on the CW. So it'll be interesting to see how Live goes about promoting that, Like do they do they want to spoil it on on their social channels?

00:18:46
Speaker 1: Are they gonna I don't.

00:18:47
Speaker 2: I don't think Live is gonna go dark on social when they're in Australia and they've sold sixty thousand tickets or whatever for that event, just so they don't spoil what's on the CW right the next day. But that's one thing that it's kind of peaked my interest will keep me watching as they get into some of these international markets later in the season.

00:19:08
Speaker 3: Right now, so people had a little bit of fun with some of the shows that outrated Live may Acoba this past week. I believe World's Funniest Animals on the CW got got a higher rating than Live may Acoba. But I want to remind people that, you know, Jeff Shackelford on his blog for years has had a recurring bit about the various bits of ridiculous cable programming that would beat out lower tier PGA tour events. You know, reruns of Expedition, Bigfoot, Flavor of Love, you know, things of that nature. Right, This is a this is a something that's existed for a while with golf telecast, especially in the sort of post Tiger era when he's not at most events. A lot of these less significant events on the PGA Tour don't rate very well, in fact, rate stunningly poorly. But this is golf, right. I want to remind people that the golf audience is very specific, and there's a reason that CBS, NBC, ESPN Plus or you know, the corporations behind them, we're willing to pay the PGA Tour something like seven hundred million dollars a year for the privilege to broadcast golf events. So could you talk a little bit about why the golf audience is valuable and what that means in terms of ratings, right, how we should interpret ratings in light of the specific nature of the golf audience.

00:20:36
Speaker 2: I think the golf audience, like as much as people want to say the golf audience is getting younger, and it seems like if if you just lived on Twitter and then you would say, yes, the golf audience is very young. But I think sometimes people get a little bit too skewed with their view on Twitter. They think that's the only view in the world, and if you're not on Twitter, then you're not you know, operating in a normal There's plenty of golf fans, and I would say a lot of golf fans still skew toward that in that older demographic, which Live has said, like we want to get younger. If you look at some of the ratings that were reported this week, viewership that was reported this morning, LIVES numbers in that kind of eighteen to forty nine demo were pretty small. That was a pretty small percentage of their overall viewership. So I'm sure that's something that they want to build on. It's certainly like with their golf but louder slogan, you know, the parties, the music, all that stuff.

00:21:35
Speaker 1: That's who they want to cater to.

00:21:37
Speaker 2: And I certainly think there is an audience for that, But that core golf audience is still in that kind of like fifty and older demographic. That's still who's sitting down to watch golf every single weekend. They're going to turn on, you know, the Puerto Rico Open this week, despite having like Jonathan Kay and Derek Earns and Jeff retired Jeff Ogilvie in the field like it's gonna be on, you know, in their living rooms. Maybe it's just background noise, but it's gonna be on. You know, is a twenty five year old golf fan gonna turn on the Puerto Rico Open unless they're betting on it?

00:22:17
Speaker 1: Maybe not? So I think that's that's why you set like why.

00:22:22
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, the tour in NBC and CBS and ESPN do these deals because they realize there's still a very large group of people in the older demographic that are watching that are watching this.

00:22:33
Speaker 3: I love that you called out Jonathan Kay and Derek ernspite it by name there. I think that if if people didn't know that you were a golf geek so far, that they'll that that will be confirmed by by your ability to pull those names off the top of your head. So you are at your most certainly, there.

00:22:51
Speaker 1: Are some other ones I get.

00:22:52
Speaker 2: I think Omar Eurestes in the field this week, and I mean there I could, I could before I came on. Me and a colleague we're kind of going over the field for Puerto Rico. It's pretty it feels like two thousand and five in some respects with that with that field.

00:23:06
Speaker 3: So yeah, the Puerto Rico field is sort of like the uh that that old dead Spin bit where they did let's remember some guys. Yeah, that's that's kind of what the Puerto Rico.

00:23:16
Speaker 2: What was funny this morning is a lot of people were saying, well, the PGA Tours weakest field of the season and killed Live and I was kind of like, boy, you haven't seen the you know, Frank Licklier got on the Puerto Rico Open this morning, like, you haven't seen the Puerto Rico Open field yet.

00:23:29
Speaker 3: So so speaking of you know, trying to get younger and what that might mean for a golf league. This past week, Alan Chipnook, who is at Maya Cooba, tweeted Live says that two thirds of its viewership is under forty five, and I loved an antifoulder response to that. Yeah, but how old is the third viewer? Got a big kick out of that. But but this is the serious point here is that this is Live's line right now. Greg Norman was on a podcast pass with the economist Stephen Levitt, right of freakonomics fame recently, and Norman was very eager to talk up the youthfulness of Liv's audience, and Levitt kind of accepted that it face value when Norman said it, now, it seems like, you know, the proof in the pudding so far is that Lives audience TV audience in that eighteen to forty nine demographic that you were mentioning earlier is not really showing signs of being that different from the PGA tour's demographics. What do you make of these claims out of Live that their audience is younger. Is that wishful thinking on their part or do you think they have an actual basis for making that assertion in the media right now?

00:24:45
Speaker 2: I think it would be hard to make that assertion with any degree of I mean, maybe they have data that I don't know about after how many events. They've had nine events now, right, So maybe they can make that assertion after nine events that most of their their fans are young, and that's certainly a possibility. Is that is that the data they have, or is that who they want to target and that's kind of their overall messages, that's who they want to go after. I think that's probably the more likely thing. Like you can keep saying like, yes, we want to target this younger demo and build toward that. But to me, it'd be hard after nine events to say, well, our our our fan base is eighty percent, you know, eighteen to forty nine. Again, maybe that is maybe that is from from all the tickets they've sold and data they've they've scraped.

00:25:33
Speaker 1: You know, maybe that is the case.

00:25:35
Speaker 2: But to me, they're still just very very early on in there and their kind of journey. You know, we've played one event in their second season, right, so if if their goal was to have everything mapped out and figured out by nine events, and then they know a lot more than I do, so I would say that it would probably take a few more years really to kind of figure out really at your hands around that kind of data and and who their fans.

00:26:03
Speaker 3: Are in general. You know, we've just been talking about the US part of this deal, like the US TV deals, the US product, but there's a whole international part of liv's operation. There are these international TV deals and so you know, just you know, broadly speaking, do you think the international audience for live is really monetizable and that if we just talk about the US audience that we're kind of missing a big part of it, or is that always going to be a relatively small part of their you know, revenue potential.

00:26:36
Speaker 2: I think, I mean the international, Like they've made a big push on international, right, and so they did make a big deal about signing the deal with the CW and one hundred and twenty million view homes and all that. So obviously that's a big part of what they're selling, but also the international piece is huge, and so like, I think it'll be pretty popular in Australia because obviously you have the best Australian golfer on the planet playing for Live right now, right, there's any question about that. So I think Australia will be really hot. Like South America should be pretty interested, I would think with players like Jaqe Neeman and Meto Pereira and those guys, I think the international interest should be there.

00:27:14
Speaker 1: You know.

00:27:14
Speaker 2: I know, the PGA tour has gone to South America and they have the Latino America Tour. They've been to Mexico that sort of thing. But yeah, I mean the PGA tour is largely kind of ignored Australia, right and I think that's.

00:27:27
Speaker 1: A lot of lives.

00:27:28
Speaker 2: Kind of planning and how they've gone about things has been finding you know, weak points in the PGA tours schedule or just kind of how they operate Australia is a big part of that. You've seen their events like, yeah, of course Live's not going to schedule an event up against the Phoenix Open, right, They're going to schedule against the Honda Classic. I'm not sure what's opposite the Tucson event next month, but I would imagine it's not another designated event. So I think it's all part of their strategy, right, is to find those kind of pain points on the tour and uh and take advantage of those. So but internationally, sure has been a huge part of their of their push and and UH. Again, it's one of those things that it's going to be hard to say after two or three events, or even nine events is a very small sample size so to say what that what that level of interest was and right now, like the viewership numbers that are reported today, those are US only, right, so we haven't seen any numbers internationally what the interest was like in Asia or in Australia for their their opening event this past week, So it'll just as is with with most things would Live. I think it'll just take a little bit longer, a little bit more of a one runway to kind of figure out what the what the metrics look like.

00:28:45
Speaker 3: And I think the big question going forward for Live is that even though they have the backing of the Public Investment Fund of Saudi Arabia, even though there's an enormous war chest behind this, the big question is whether Live can generate meaningful revenue, whether it can do anything like what its boosters have been saying it can do as far as being a generator of revenue, And so, you know, what are you looking out for in that vein? I would imagine you're not just looking at the media rights deals that there's also some thoughts that you might have about the franchise model, the teams, the sponsorships, things like that when it comes to the question of whether Live can can start to produce significant revenue. So what are some of the things you're looking at there and what are your expectations about that?

00:29:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the biggest thing right now is, like you mentioned the franchise model and how that plays out, and like that's what separates Live from PGA Tour Golf. As they've set up these these franchises, they want to operate like an NFL team, basically like an NHL team where basically, you know, you saw the team, you know, the team event, the crushers one on on Sunday, Like, most of that money goes into the team's coffers. And it's a big difference between last year where like Live just bankrolled everything, you know, caddy pay and flights and all the lavish parties and all this stuff. And I'm sure LIV will continue bankrolling some of that, but when it comes to you know, the teams themselves, I think that's that's what we're looking as, like are the players still going to be You've heard like various reports in the last couple of weeks, well, oh, ex players are kind of starting to grumble a little bit about it's not what they sign up for this and that, like, and I don't want to speculate, but it's like, how do those players respond once you know, yes, they win the team event, but then x amount of money that they want in that is just going into the team coffers, and that's what's paying for their flights and it's not just going directly into that player's.

00:30:50
Speaker 1: You know, bankroll for the year. Like that's that's how it's operating.

00:30:53
Speaker 2: So that's to me, like the biggest point of interest really, or there are a couple of points that are really like interesting me, but that's one of the bigger ones is like how do these teams monetized throughout the year? We saw last week Dustin Johnson and Adidas parted way which was a huge, I mean a huge deal. Like we saw the Adidas didn't renew its deal with with Sergio, But like dustin In is his deal with Adidas so he can sign a team sponsorship, Right, How are these players gonna gonna unwind the various sponsorship deals that they have now so that they can all be just kind of a blank slate like Joaque Neeman still sponsored by Adidas, Harold Barner still sponsored by Jordan Brand.

00:31:38
Speaker 1: Right.

00:31:39
Speaker 2: So you see some teams, the Majestics, you know, this and that have kind of the team wide you know, a blank shirt they've got their team logos on. And then you see other teams like the Range Goats, where they're all still kind of wearing their you know, Taylor Gooch has his Callaway branding on and h V three as his Jordan brand, you know, clothing on it and that sort of thing. So it's like some of these deals obviously, like Joaquin Neman, like when did he sign that Adidas deal? How long does that run through? And at how was he twenty one years old? Is even twenty?

00:32:10
Speaker 1: I don't even know if he's not old.

00:32:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he might be twenty two at this point, but yeah, I mean it's it's got to feel like a huge risk for a player that young.

00:32:19
Speaker 2: Amidas to take a hike like exactly, you know. So that's that's one of the things I'm really interested in. And also just like buzz wise for Live as far you know, all the all the buzz that we saw last year was I kind of compare it to the NBA, Like the NBA offseason, Like free agency is the biggest thing, right people want to see what players join and what team, and I always think it's more interesting and important than who wins the championship. Every year like that seems to generate the most discussion, and Live really was that same way last year with you know, all is camp Smith's gonna go to Live and is Cam Young gonna join Live, and this and that and so this this more or last night, James Corgan from the London Telegraph report that Live is not signing any more players for twenty twenty three. Of course there could be some injuries here and there, and you could have guys sub in, but I don't think you're gonna see the level of a Cam Smith joining Live this year. You know, Xander Schoffley was highly rumored to be joining Live. Obviously he's with the TGL now, so that's not going to happen. But I think like that was one of the main buzz generators for Live all last year, like who's gonna sign now? And now if that's done, we've seen the viewership for this first event, what's it going to look like in eight weeks, twelve weeks at their fourth event, when the teams are the same, or maybe they'll be the same, I don't know. You might see some trades or something like that. I don't really know how all those work. But and I think that that buzz, you know, buzz translates to viewership, translates to sponsors might say there's not a lot of buzz around Live. I don't want to get involved in it, so that can really be a you know, a domino effect to to the revenue that these teams are are generating.

00:34:15
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00:36:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent.

00:36:37
Speaker 2: And this is something I reported on back around the start of the year, the Week of Century around both CBS and NBC. But and then before that, I talked to some people at ESPN based on what a ESPN plus is.

00:36:49
Speaker 1: Doing around PGA Tour Live.

00:36:51
Speaker 2: And you know, their message to me is that they've been making efforts to improve the broadcast the last few years. Right say that Live cause them to really kind of innovate. But I think anyone can kind of look at that and say and look at these new innovations that you've seen this year and say, man like Live's arrival really kind of forced their hand to improve these broadcasts, because, you know, me writing that story, the biggest complaint you see on on golf Twitter is so there are too many commercials.

00:37:22
Speaker 1: The broadcasts aren't innovative enough.

00:37:24
Speaker 2: And so I think that's why you've seen, you know, CBS having their predictive shot tracer where it shows the dot on the screen. You've seen the walking talks with the players, which have been hugely popular, I think, and not just because they're just you know, they didn't want to go in and just say, well, we're talking to a player, we're asking him about his family as he's walking down the hole, like they made a considered effort. They are asking golf questions that golf nerds like myself are going to love. What's the strategy behind a t shot out of par five? And even if you're in the fairway, maybe it's not a great spot because thens on you know the You get what I'm saying, So.

00:38:03
Speaker 3: Yes, shout out Trevor Immlman. He's been doing a fantastic job asking those questions. Trevor is tuned into what golf fans really like, and he's been asking those questions that get guys like Colin Morikawa to talk about golf, and Marcawa I find when he's talking about anything else, I find it pretty dull. You know, when you're just asking him the usual questions about, you know, what's the pressure like or what does this tournament mean to you? He gives the blandest possible answers. But if you ask him about golf specifics, you start to see who Colin Marcawa is. And that's why I thought that Riviera interview with Colin on the tenth hole was really successful. So totally agreed there that the questions are the right ones.

00:38:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know, a lot of the discussion to this point has said that, you know, see I think the general consensus on golf Twitter, which again it's it's not the best gauge, but they would say CBS has done a better job. I think of a kind of innovating with their broadcast in NBC. I will say NBC, Yes, they had the TC in January, that was their first designated event. I'm interested to see this week at API will be their first full field field designated event, and I think you're likely to see a few more bells and whistles there than you've seen, you know, at Honda this week or at AMX when when Golf Channel had the broadcast back then, so you know you saw it at Capalua you had Tommy Ry running the drone following the ball down the fairway. I know NBC did roll out. I think it was at Honda this week. Some more mics, better improved mics so they can pick up on player caddy conversations that sort of thing, you know, and talking to them. There had been some thought to micing up a caddy so that you could really pick up on that, But the idea was that they have such good mics now you don't really need to you can pick up on a conversation from from far away. So yeah, I think you know, See has talked to me about having different you know, boat cameras at some events, and you've seen fly cams and you're going to see more of that. Like really, I would say at the elevator slash designated events, you'll see a lot more bells and whistles on the broadcasts throughout this year than we've seen in years past. And that's just a concerted effort by those networks to really improve the product because that's what people have been asking for. One one really big hit coming out of Kapalu is when Callaway sponsored the Final Hour to make it basically commercial free. You know, I talked to someone at Callaway this past week for a story. He said they've talked about potentially doing that for an LPGA event maybe down the road. Things like that, Like that's what people want to see because you know, the golf fans, we just want to see golf, right and anything additive onto that is from a tex standpoint, is certainly certainly helpful.

00:40:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, from my point of view, the innovations that I'd really like to see are along lines of what you're talking about here, the kind of long periods of golf at the right time without an ad break. So the sponsored stuff is great. Callaway did it at exactly the right time during the Tournament of Champions. It was during the last round, right, it was. It was really really good that way, and it gave you uninterrupted golf at exactly the time that you want it. And then the other one for me is just hearing some of those player caddy conversations, Like I think that that would be such a significant ad to the broadcast, and I know that some players and caddies are resistant to it. But what's coming to mind for me right now is during Tom Kim's miked up segment at the Waste Management Phoenix Open, he had a conversation with his caddie, Joe Scavron, sorry if I'm mispronouncing that name, that was so interesting where basically it started off with Tom Kim thinking that he had to hit a shot about two hundred and fifteen two hundred twenty yards. Immediately, Joe knew that he had to take fifteen yards off his player's number in his head, and he could see him immediately go to work, like you know, bringing up these different points and just working and working and working. Forty five seconds later, Tom Kim was thinking, I'm hitting a five iron two hundred yards at most, and that was fascinating to me.

00:42:20
Speaker 1: And see Tom Kim hit it to about ten feet right.

00:42:23
Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, that's right. He hit it absolutely stiff. It was a perfect encapsulation of why golf is really interesting. There are these little stories that happen with each shot, and I wish that more telecasts would embrace that kind of storytelling and not just think that this is just for the golf nerds. The casual fan isn't going to appreciate that. I think anybody could have understood what happened on that shot. So do you think that, you know, there's some move towards hearing more of that kind of material on telecasts, and you know, do you think the player pushed back to that is ultimately going to win out a little bit more.

00:43:04
Speaker 2: I think it's only gonna continue and expand. I mean, as you see, you know, yeah, you might have a player here or there that they do a walk and talk and then they hit their next shot in the water or something like that. But I think by and large, if the networks and the players choose the right time to do it right, They're not going to do it on the second nine on Sunday at Augusta. They're not going to go to X player when he's a shot off the lead, right, They're going to choose some of these you know, early, round early, you know, stuff like that. I think the players buy and large are going to start to realize that this isn't that big of a deal and in the end, we're helping ourselves, right. Max Homan did that at Farmers out of Tory, and that's all anyone talked about. It's a Friday night in January primetime, and granted I follow a lot of golf people on Twitter and social media, that's all anyone is talking about.

00:43:58
Speaker 1: You wouldn't have known that.

00:44:00
Speaker 2: Ryder had an X shot lead at that at that point, it was that Max Homo just did a really interesting interview on CBS talking about how he plays a part five and so you know, you couple that with them realizing that it's not that big of a deal, and then you think about the pip and implications at the end of the year. Is Max Homo gonna win the PIP over a guy like Tiger, No, he's not, But is it going to jump him from sixth place to fourth place? Which is a pretty sizable dollar difference, right. I think players will start to see that and realize that it's largely beneficial them doing stuff like that. And you know, sure there's going to be one or two here there that they do an interview and after that it doesn't go so well, and they might blame it on that, but by and large, I think you'll start to see a lot more of it.

00:44:49
Speaker 3: So this week's PGA Tour tournament Arnold Palmer Invitational at Bayhill designated event, and this new structure designated and non design designated is really starting to come into focus, because you know, we've had a run of designated events recently, the Phoenix Open, the Genesis Invitational, the API coming up here, the Players Championship, and we also had a non designated event, the Honda Classic, wedged in between them, and so this dynamic between these two different types of events is starting to become a little bit clearer. What do you think the implications of this are going to be maybe just with TV ratings, like we could just start with that. Do you think there's going to be a really big impact with these different types of events on the landscape of TV ratings for the PGA Tour.

00:45:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they certainly has the potential to. I mean, I think what you're going to do is you'll see, you know, you've got this year's designated events, and you have your kind of tent pole designated events, like API is always going to be designated, right, Genesis is going to be designated. But you know, Jack Nicholas revealed it this this past weekend at Honda, like he's already saying that that Waste Management is not going to be a designated event next year. Now, did the viewership total for Waste Management? Was that what it was because it was designated?

00:46:17
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

00:46:18
Speaker 2: This year, Like, yes, you had some bigger names, and I think people buy and large are still going to watch Waste Management, especially you got Scotty Shuffler and those guys in the mix. But where I think it will have a positive effect is you know, Jack mentioned that Pebble Beach is going to be designated next year.

00:46:32
Speaker 1: So Pebble Beach which you.

00:46:34
Speaker 2: Know, Justin Rose won on a Monday finish. This year, their field has really struggled, and in the last I would say five years. I mean you've had players going over and play in Soaudi, inter National, that sort of thing. But if you have a designated field at Pebble next year and you've got Rory and John Rahm squaring off, you know, in the final round instead of Justin Rose and.

00:47:00
Speaker 1: Pardon me, I forget who forget whoever might have been mixed in there.

00:47:06
Speaker 2: Yeah he was in. I know, I had hovelin and won and done. He was somewhat you know, in the mix. But so yeah, I think it could have a huge effect.

00:47:14
Speaker 1: Honda.

00:47:14
Speaker 2: Like I said, this week was down seven percent from last year. It's an event that's really been kind of it's this year it's right in the middle of four designated events, so of course you're not going to have a lot of the big names playing that. But next year, if it's if it's elevated, if it's designated, then yeah, some of those big names are going to be there. And that's a tournament that always has you know, buy and large and exciting finish.

00:47:34
Speaker 1: Right.

00:47:35
Speaker 2: This week was an incredible finish, even despite it not being you know, a great field. So if you add a lot of those big names to the mix, like you saw at Honda with a decade ago, Honda was i would say, one of the strongest tournaments on the tour schedule, So you could really, you know, in the matter of a year. Jack didn't say specifically whether they were going to elevate that event next year. I know he said they were getting a new date and they were moving some things around. But if they do make it elevated, yeah, absolutely, I could see that having a positive effect on the tournament itself. And then that's just you know, a net positive for the viewership figures as well. So and you could see that across the board. We've talked about how many times has it been mentioned, like is that John Deere going to get elevated status in a couple of years. I would tune in to watch John Deere more. I'd be more likely to tune in if if Rob and Rory were facing off there instead of you know whomever else. So yeah, I think it could be hugely positive for the tour going forward.

00:48:31
Speaker 3: Okay, And part of that bullishness of yours is based on this fact that designated events are going to move around, that different events are going to get the designation in future years. Now, that'll be complicated, but it would also be reassuring to sponsors of this year's non designated events, of which Honda is one. Right in Honda's fleeing from that data Andbruary. Now, if there are events that will never be designated, and I assume that there will be because there there just might be sponsors who don't want to pay up for it, what do you think sponsors of those non designated lower tier events are going to think of this change. Is it going to be hard to find those sponsors for the PGA Tour?

00:49:21
Speaker 1: Do you think it might be.

00:49:24
Speaker 2: I think it's going to depend on how the tour is going to couch those smaller events. I think it got off to a good start. You know, I know Honda wasn't the first non designated event this week, but I think it goes into how those events are going to tell stories, how they're you know, how it's going to be positioned this week at Honda. Yes, you didn't have the biggest names, but you had Eric Cole, a thirty four year old kind of journeyman who's made three hundred thousand dollars in his career, you know, squaring off with with Chris Kirk, who hasn't won in eight years, who's battled, you know, alcoholism. He's been very open about that. To me, the storylines around that were fantastic, And so I think that those types of stories are the things that the tour can sell because the tour has the advantage and I'll kind of compare it to Live in this sense, the tour has that advantage of historical context around events. So even if you know any of those events in Texas between the Buyer and Nelson and ben Hogan's events, those might not have the strongest fields this year, but next year, if they're designated, they're going to have a good field. But this year people still know going in, well, I can tell the story of Ben Hogan at this event, or you know, a guy who's never won on tour, if he wins at Ben Hogan's tournament, that's a big deal. That means a trip to the Masters, that means a trip to the Players, that means, you know, likely a spot and you know, the Tour Championship something like that. So I think the tour does have that advantage historical context around these smaller events that yeah, they're not going to be elevated every year, they might rotate.

00:51:06
Speaker 1: The tour hasn't even said that.

00:51:07
Speaker 2: Again, I'm just kind of going off these schedule changes for next year. I'm going based off what Jack said on the broadcast, So quote Jack, not me.

00:51:16
Speaker 3: Who knows when Jack says things that they're not always totally accurate.

00:51:20
Speaker 2: But right, But I mean, I don't I would hope Jack wouldn't go and say that publicly without having some sense of, uh, you know, reliability with that. So I think, uh, you know, we haven't seen a PGA Tour event in a long time that hasn't had a sponsor, so that would certainly be something pretty pretty wild from from our standpoint. But at the same time, you haven't had a schedule like this ever, So there's just a lot of unknowns.

00:51:46
Speaker 3: It's it's brand new territory. And and you know, if I'm a non designated sponsor, and this might just be me being naive and not a business person at all, but if I'm a non designated sponsor and I'm looking at the future of my PGA Tour event, in this new structure of the designated and the non designated, with the fields being what they are, then I'm I feel like I'm thinking I'm getting a lower price here. I'm paying less to sponsor this event, and I have an identity that I could if I wanted to lean into. Because if they're just paying a bunch of money to sponsor a really significant event, I mean that's beneficial in the sense that it's very visible and having John Rahm and Rory McElroy at your event gets a lot of eyes on you. But if you're a company that likes to portray itself as being the defender of the up and comer or being all about the grinder, then it seems like these non designated events are kind of offering that up to you and saying you can take this if you want, you can embrace this. I don't know. Is that incredibly naive of me to think that that might be appealing to some companies?

00:52:59
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. And the no, that's that's my point. You might have an Eric Cole Chris Kirk story coming down the stretch. Now you also might have a real stinker, yeah, and might you know, and maybe it's a maybe it's a non elevated event like the you know, the event in Mexico last year that John rom played and won I think going Away, or maybe he was battling with Kirk Kidiyama late on Sunday. So maybe you'll have some events like that. But then you also do have the potential for some really storybook storylines to get into on a Sunday. I mean, this week you saw a couple guys who Monday qualified into that event and then we're involved late on Sunday. I would say, so big opportunities for those going forward. And I think that's what those those sponsors will really have to lean into in those non designated years if they say, all right, well you're going to be if they tell John Deere, you're gonna be elevated in twenty twenty five, but these next these other three years, you're not right. So it's kind of it's going to cause those events to really go outside the box a little bit to tell stories that they wouldn't normally tell.

00:54:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, all right, so last question here. You know, obviously two weeks ago the Netflix docuseries Full Swing debuted. It's eight episodes, I think before this series came out that there were some high expectations in parts of the golf world that it could have a Drive to Survive like impact on the PGA Tour, And it's definitely too early to tell whether that's going to happen. Because, of course, Drive to Survive itself, I think took a couple of years to have the impact on Formula one that it ended up having. I think Drive to Survive really took off during the pandemic, actually when people were home and watching a lot of Netflix. So it would be tough to expect that full swing would have that type of impact on the PGA Tour. We don't know yet, but that seems unlikely. What do you think the nature of that impact will be?

00:55:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean backing you up totally.

00:55:04
Speaker 2: Drive to Survive had a couple you know, advantages at play, and that it came to your point, it came out before the pandemic, and you know, I'm not sure how popular was. It wasn't nearly as popular as it became during the pandemic. Second point on Drive to Survive is they had a ton of global stars. I would say F one's largely an international series right until recently they've started to get into the US.

00:55:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's only one American driver this year, and he's brand new, right, So.

00:55:33
Speaker 2: There are a lot of personalities that people didn't know. Of course, the PGA Tour is very international, a ton of international players, but they've all been playing in the US by and large, and I think US viewers already know their stories a little bit more, with the exception of some of the younger guys likes to hit Tagala, you know those guys. So I don't think it's not going to be on the Drive to Survive level.

00:55:55
Speaker 1: It's just not.

00:55:56
Speaker 2: But I do think it has the potential to be to be hugely popular here among casual golf fans. There are a bunch of people in the office I know who you know. They know I'm a golf nut, but they're not necessarily huge into golf. They're coming up to me asking about certain things about the series, saying they loved it. So I think there's you know, we talked about the younger demographic they live is targeting. That's who Drive to Survive is going to appeal to. And then you know, I've got my parents texting me saying, Hey, we're watching this episode on Ian Poulter, and I didn't know he lived in Florida. I thought it was English and you know that sort of thing. So I think I think he can hit a couple different areas. And it seems to be doing well at this point. I mean we're ten or so days, eleven days out from its launch. It's still in the top ten highest, you know, most watched TV shows in the US on Netflix, right, so it's it seems to have a little bit of staying power.

00:56:52
Speaker 1: You know. I really liked it.

00:56:55
Speaker 2: I thought they missed a couple opportunities. They could have told the live story a little bit more. I certainly, you know, as a golf purist, I would say, and religious follower of the sport like I enjoyed it. After every episode ended, I was kind of looking forward to the next one. So I think it has potential to do really well. And it seems like they're already filmed. I know, it's not been confirmed, it seems like they're already filming for season two, so we'll see.

00:57:20
Speaker 1: How that goes. But yeah, I think it's got great potential. Yeah.

00:57:23
Speaker 3: I think the key is that are they going to get to do season two? I think that's the big question right now, because they are filming for it, but I don't believe it's been officially renewed, and you know, perhaps Netflix executives are kind of looking to see how it does to fully follow through on season two. But it seems like it's doing pretty well. And if they get to do that second season, you know, I think that's when we can really sort of assess what this means to the golf world, because Drive to Survive season one didn't have the impact that Drive to Survive seasons two and three had when you put them all together and people just started binge all the seasons and the seasons at once. You know, if there's full swing season two, maybe we start to get into that situation where more and more people get into it and are there's word of mouth spreading about you know, you have to watch this. You know season two is the best season, but you got to watch it from the beginning. I could imagine that that kind of dynamic emerging with it well.

00:58:20
Speaker 2: And how much access do they have, you know, there's already reports that there were no Netflix cameras on the ground in Mexico for the for Live's first event, Right, Yeah, this past weekend and so like, for me as just a golf fan, that's a lot of the intrigue about Full Swing is like I want to know what these guys are saying, what the live guys are saying about the PGA Tour guys, and what the PGA Tour guys are saying about the live guys. So like, yeah, for me, if if the tour kind of puts its thumb on the scale so to say, and Live is no part of this series, that that's going to be a huge blow to me just from a fans perspective, Like, that's the juicy stuff, right, That's what we want to along with the field goods lines like the Joel Damons that sort of thing, Like we want to know these juicy storylines. So that'll be a big, a big thing for me a year two if it happens.

00:59:09
Speaker 3: All right, So, Josh, thank you for coming on the podcast. Where can people find you on Twitter? They can find your written work in Sports Business Journal, along with a bunch of other good stuff from your your stable of reporters.

00:59:21
Speaker 1: There.

00:59:22
Speaker 3: Where can people find you on Twitter?

00:59:23
Speaker 1: Yeah?

00:59:24
Speaker 2: Twitter, I'm just Josh a Carpenter, So I'm on there and again Sports Business Journal dot com.

00:59:31
Speaker 1: We're on there, you know.

00:59:33
Speaker 2: We cover the business of sports. It's a pretty wide array of things that we cover, and golf certainly falls.

00:59:39
Speaker 1: Onto that for me. So excellent. All right, thanks a lot, Gary, appreciate it man.

00:59:52
Speaker 3: This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast was produced and edited by Matt Ruschis. Thank you, Matt. One big thing that you can do for us that would really help is to rate and review the Frida Egg Podcast wherever you are listening to this. Those ratings and reviews help us find new listeners and continue to grow what we're doing here at the Frida Egg. Now at another level of support for the Frida Egg, check out our membership. This is called CLUBTFE and you can find information about it at the Frida Egg dot com slash membership. It is a content focused offering. We have a CLUBTFE blog. We have monthly videos made by the incredible Cameron Hurtis. We have weekly course profiles that include incredible imagery as well as some mediocre writing for me on occasion. We have all sorts of stuff going on in clubtf including a lively comment section where members are really interacting with each other and forming some connections and having really really fun discussions. So clubtfe It's at the Frida Egg dot com slash membership check it out, Thank you for listening, and we'll see you again.

01:01:01
Speaker 1: So