# 371 - Caroline Jones on Becoming First Female Member of The Zac Brown Band + Her Solo Career and Touring with Tim and Faith, Jimmy Buffett, Kenny Chesney and Who Has the Best Food Backstage + Exploring New Zealand in a Campervan

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Speaker 1: Episode three seventy one with Caroline Jones. Known about her for a long time. She is the first female member of the Zach Brown Band, so she's been a solo artist, will remain a solo artist. But she's so proficient. And she was opening for ZBB and they were like, hey, won't you be a member? Zach was crazy, So I want you to hear the story from her. Let me she play so many instruments, she's basically a musical master. And she lives in Nashville. Also in my car story when she moved to New Zealand, that's pretty crazy for quite a while during the pandemic, and she said they didn't have pandemic there because they shut everything down so they got to roam freely. It is a really good interview. I really enjoyed the time and it all, and it got to the point to where we started challenging each other, which I enjoy the most. A lot of back and forth. It's not favorite thing to do. When I don't know that we weren't arguing, but it was just like, oh, what about this point? Okay, I see your point. What about That's my favorite kind of do. Honestly, it's so enjoy follow her at Caroline Jones even if you want to see what she looks like, because sometimes it's good to have a face when you're listening to this. And here we go. It is Caroline Jones, episode three seventy one of the Bobby Cast. Right, we're here with Caroline Jones, Caroline going to see again. Likewise, I think we saw each other the opery recently, and it's one of those weird things where you feel like you know somebody, but maybe because you've only watched them on social media, I guess I don't know you as well as I felt like I did, because again, I think it's called like a para social relationship, or you're watching somebody on social media and you're like, oh, And then when we met, I was like, I'm not sure if we've ever met a person or not. Yeah, we hadn't, and I'm a huge fan I've been for a long time, and the same I feel like I know you, So I just went up and introduced myself. That was a fun night. I got to cover Copperhead Road at the Opera. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah. So I mean I just remember thinking I can't believe I hadn't met her yet, because again, I seeing so much of what you're doing or who you're out with, or you're playing shows and stuff, so, um, it was really cool to officially meet you. Um. And then I'll just start with what was in my head first when I heard you were coming to do this, was that, So are you playing with Zach now? So what what what's happening there? Okay, So I am now an official member of the Zach Brown Band? So what does that mean? Because I saw that too, What does that mean? That means that I not only will tour with them now, but I'll also make their records with them and be involved in the studio process and any and all things that they do. And that's very interesting because you are such a strong artist yourself and you're also going to play with Zach, Like, what does that mean for your music world? Does that mean anything different? Are you still going to be Caroline Jones front facing artists that's writing songs and playing Are you really going to be with Zach? No, I'll still be my own artist. And actually, when I kind of had this official conversation with Zach or this heart to heart if you will, that was really my only hesitation because I love playing with Zack Ground Band. It's an opportunity for me as a musician that is like a once in a lifetime opportunity. And um, I've never been a sideman before. It's great discipline, it's great for my musicianship, it's great for me as an artist, singer, songwriter, performer. But if anyone knows, like the poll that you have towards the conviction of your own dreams and your own artistry, it's Zach. You know. He understands that he has been grinding away that since he was a teenager. So that was really my only stipulation is like, I just have to find a way if I'm going to say yes full time and fully commit because also they deserve that, because they're an incredible group of musicians that are fully committed to Zack Broun Band. And I said, I just have to find I have to find the balance. Really, it's just time and scheduling. Um, because I don't I feel that they're not mutually exclusive in the least, like I feel that being Zack Brown Band adds to my artistry, my musicianship and me being a solo artist. The more tickets that I can pull, the more that I can add to their band, hopefully, and the better musician I am an artist I am, the more I can add to their band, whether it's musically, performance wise, songwriting, any of that. So for me, I just feel like I hit the jackpie. What was the response when you had that, A somewhat uncomfortable conversation of yeah, this is awesome, but you know what does he say to that? Well, Zack is a very straightforward person, very honest person, and he really values that over anything like he's a very loyal person. Um, So I think he hopefully that's one of the reasons that I'm in the band. You know, there's better musicians than me, better performers than me. But just the combination of that and feeling like family and someone that they can trust and that they trust the intentions of is I think a big part of it as well. Um And he just said that he understands and that it's something that he knows it I'll need to balance and that if in when I can't do both, that everyone in the band will be really happy for me and I. Again, it's like something that you just can't you can't really script or try for that kind of like genuine friendship. It's like really a mutual um because he he really championed me as an artist the first person. That's what my assumption was that he saw you actually performing and you are a multi instrumentalist, and you know, we'll get to all that, but that's how he was exposed to you. Was so he was the first person to ever take me under his wing. I really owe the career that I have so far to touring um. Zach was the first person to invite me out on the road. I was supposed to open two shows for him and ended up opening the whole tour and opening for them on and off for three years and just became a good friend of theirs, kind of a part of their family musical family. And like I said that, those are my first big tours, so I felt like I had dined and gone to the like and that opened the door for me to open for Jimmy Buffett and Kenny Chesney and Faith Hill and to mcgrawl and other tours that I was able to get on because Zach had taken that chance on me. But then the pandemic happened, and so when everyone started announcing their tours again last year in twenty one. I just kind of assumed I'll just do my own thing. I was working on my second record and Zack just called me out of the blue and said, can you come out on the road with us and play some guitar and play some banjo and play some B three? And I was like, I don't play B three and he's like, I don't Organs sorry, And I was like, I don't play B three and he's like, but you play keys, right, And I was like yeah, and he's like, you'll play B three by August. So I had to do like a B three crash course and Clay and Coy who played B three and Zack Brown Band are just amazing B three players. Um So that was extremely intimidating, um as if all the other stuff wasn't. But I was super surprised when asked me to come out and tour with them. And so I came out and toured with them last year, and I remember we got to c m as and some stuff like that, and he was kept asking me to come and like be in their pictures and I was like what is because I just thought I was kind of a sideman in the group on the road, and he kept asking me two different opportunities and like dream scenarios like playing on c m as with them, and I just couldn't believe it. And then, um, just recently we kind of made it official and we'll come back to that because definitely to me, not your identity. That was just the newest thing that I guess I read about you in the last couple of days and I was like, dang, I'll ask her about that as soon as we get started. But I do. I think my audience who listens to this, they're they're really curious about how people got here, you know, and not just you know, what's the last three songs you wrote, but like where did you grow up? You know, what's the what was the family dynamic like for you? And when did you start playing music and who kind of pushed you in to do music or encourage you to do music. Well, I don't really come from a musical family. Grew up just outside of New York City in the northeast, so not listening to country music at all. My dad is from Memphis, He's a country boy, but I didn't grow up listening to any country uh. And I grew up really just with a love for writing, for poetry. That's how it started for me. And as soon as I learned to read, I would just write all day. I've always been kind of an introverted person, and when I was about like nine or ten, I started singing in school, and then I begged my parents for saying lessons and realized that I could put all those poems and stories to music and never wanted to do anything else after that. Were you playing anything at nine or ten? Did any piano lessons? I took piano lessons as a kid, but I wasn't super intuent. Can you imagine like a four year old on the gospel Oregan? Um? No? But I actually I had started writing songs and I started demmling them. I had a manager around like sixteen seventeen, and he said, you know your music kind of your songs are kind of country, like the sensibilities are kind of country pop. And I was like what, I couldn't. I just didn't. I hadn't grown up listening that. The extent of country that I knew was like Shannai Twain um. And he was like, yeah, you should really go down to Nashville. So I went down to Nashville and I went to a show with the Bluebird, and that was it for me. So organically, your writing style was like poetry, it was authentic. It was country music, I think. So, I mean I had some sensibilities there. I wouldn't really say that I was country, and definitely not consciously, but I think that when I came down here and I went to a show with the Bluebird, and I saw because I loved like Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Americana now yeah, and I didn't realize that there was a whole genre of music that was built around authenticity, that was built around storytelling, a musicianship. And when I saw the people at the Bluebird, the songwriters, I think I saw Leslie Satcher like tell a story about how she wrote a song, and I was like, this whole town own is full of people like that. And I just could not get enough. And so when I went back home after that trip, I started at the Carter family and went all the way forward and just listened to every country artist and UM started with old country, and like I said, went all the way to present day. I just fell in love with it. And it's cool it's a cool age to fall in love with it, like eight, because you're so you know, that's the music that really makes an impression on you. Um. And I just became a student of it and fell in love with it. And I wouldn't say I'm traditional country by any stretch, but I love country music, especially love old country music, and I feel like that was the missing piece of my songwriting artistry. Discovered that most really good country artists aren't traditional country because traditional country is always evolving, and when there is any sort of evolution, there's new people coming in or new styles that actually supplement a genre absolutely well. And in this day and age, you know, purism is kind of a lost art form. And I think that's why these past few years you've seen the rise of traditional country more, which is such a cool resurgence. I love seeing that. Um. But in this day and age, none of us in this generation grew up listening to one kind of music or one genre music. I mean, that's true, that's download and streaming. It's napster, you know. I say that too about even my career, where I was very fortunate that when I was a teenager, napster existed and popped up and when I was in college, and because I had all those influences at that exact time of my life and what I wanted to do. I was young for my job, but I knew all these different types of music. I was kind of the first generation and you were one of your audience. Yeah it was. It was one of the first generation that was influenced by everything, but still knew who I was and said, hey, I'm this, but I also have all all these outside things that are affecting me at this point. That's okay because music and media used to be regional. So where you grew up, that's what you heard or you need tapes and CDs, right, they sent it to the Walmart or the music store. And in the southeast, you're exactly right. They mostly got country right, and what was on your radio station was what was popular in your area. And same with news. I mean, even the information, the amount of information that we consume now is so unnatural compared to what you would have known about your town, your community fifty years ago. It is, and that's a great point. I love it, and I often I won't say argue, but I often have healthy debates about a similar type subject and even when it comes to country music and at the evolution of it in general, where the first time that Bob Wills had an electric steel in his band, people started screaming that's not country or drums with at the opera. I mean, you're you're looking at all, and you see it happened so many times over and over again. You would think that people would go, oh, we should stop doing that, but they don't. But you know, I have a theory about this because I feel like country now, there's lots of traditionalists in every industry and everything we need, but I feel like country has a lot to protect, even more than say a genre like pop, where lots of trends come and go. Like, I feel like the country has a family feel and a legacy that is the cornerstone of the genre. And so I feel like that's why old habits can sometimes die harder in this genre because I feel like there is a lot of integrity and a lot of values to protect. And I don't know if a lot of other music genres have that, but definitely not ones as commercial as country. I can agree with you in that you need traditionalists because if not, you'll see, you know, you're you have two sides constantly pulling, and if you don't have traditionalists, you don't have an identity. It's completely lost. But if the traditionist traditionalists hold on so tight and it doesn't at all advance or progress, it dies one it's it's a creative Yeah, It's like, that's what it is. It's so funny that I'm arguing for tradition. Like if anyone who knows me would be like Carolines arguing for the traditionalists right now, they would laugh because I'm I'm very creatively free and I'm so grateful to live in a time where artists like me can exist more. And what's funny again, on the opposite side of that, as I grew up so traditional with absolute traditional country music values because my grandmother raised me on absolute traditional country music and gospel. But the more I've been around it outside the industry and inside, and then you just look at it over time and you see that every generation. And I've been lucky enough to to talk with a lot of artists who have been affected in a negative way at the time and told you're not country and made to feel less than I can go through. I can go through guard any of them. Yeah, we can go through the even newer ones with like an al Dean when he's first here, a Sam most recently Dan and Shay. But then you can go to Garth, you can go to all of the Whalen and all those guys to Bob when they put an electric steel and they're like, you're not a country. So imagine if the traditionalists want all those imagine that we'd have no steel guitar. No, elect're still guitar. You don't be able to hear it for you have no drums. But see great art winds and great art. Absolutely I agree with that. I just think sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes it shouldn't be like you're trying to escape prison to get a chance. I also think great yes, And when you say great art wins, I don't think great art succeeds without it being good. Meaning I don't think you can throw a bunch of synth and electronic and hip hop on country music and just be like, well that's gonna do good. No, it's gotta be good. Come from his genuine, absolutely creative place, which is like what's happened in the past ten fift years. I mean You can argue that there's lower quality music made with that, but there's lower quality music made with real instruments, So it's not about that. There's amazing, creative, innovative music that has come out with program drums and synthpads and snacked vocals, and it's just par for the course when you look at where pop music is. I would also say the same argument. I really, I'm already really enjoying this conversation. This is like next, Well, this is like the stuff I like talking about. I could talk about this stuff all day. I would also say that when with the advent of the electric guitar, the same conversation was at just the advent of it, where they're like, well, that's not the same. You can hit one note and it holds. Well, this is not the same. This is cheating. The same thing that's being said about computers, the same thing that will be said about it is so cyclical, and it repeats itself over and over again. I guess sometimes I just go, how are people not seeing that? It's the same argument over and over and over and it's not wrong. It's the I mean, it's right, but it's not wrong. Well, and just because it's your taste or not your taste or not what you grew up with or not conventional doesn't mean it's wrong. And I think especially as I I'm in my thirties now, and I feel like I'm vowing to myself to just try to stay open minded the older that I get because young people always get it because they're living it. They're the ones innovating. And not that I'm not young, but I think you being an innovator in your field it allows you to see that in another field and art in a way that a lot of people who maybe don't allow themselves to think innovatively or creatively can Yeah. I just want to be allowed to be wrong, honestly, that's what it is, because if we're allowed to try things and be wrong, it makes the rights so much better, stronger, pure more. If that's a hard lesson to learn sometimes, but it's so especially in creativity, if you have the opportunity to stretch yourself out and you're not going to die if you fail, you try things, and with efforts and a new creative comes really fantastic things, but also really big turds too, honestly, and you need people around you who are creatively open that way, because it's really hard if you have that kind of spirit and that kind of mind, that kind of heart, and everyone around you saying no, play, it's safe, do this, this works, this, you know, this is commercial this, And as an artist, that's a constant struggle that you have to And then you find a tribe of people who support you want to try things, but it's supposed to be fun and creative and exciting. Yeah, I like that. Do you have anyone because that the last five years or so, I have really open to my I've been secure enough in the last five years to open myself up to go, hey, what am I doing? That sucks? Not not to the world, because they'll tell me all the time. Every day. I get that that's fed to me with a spoon every five minutes, and you can't discern what's true in that, and it is opinion. So it's nothing is true, nothing is false. But it's mostly from people who are going to spend their time doing that. Those aren't necessarily people you want to give validity. So let me ask you who tells you and who do you believe when you're like, this is what I'm doing, This is what this is my aim, this is what it did? Where am I there? Who do you trust? Because you can't have fifty people you trust? Who do you trust? And are you good at listening to people's idea and ideas? And that's different one. UM, I would truly say, the first person I trust is myself. Like, even if someone says it's really good, and I know that I can do better, I know it's not. UM. I really trust myself there creatively, and I trust myself on what feels true and authentic. UM. But I can also go down a real rabbit hole of being my own echo chamber and being super self critical. So I trust, I would say to people I trust um my manager and business partner Rick wake Uh creatively. Yeah, And I trust my husband my husband. I'm a newly wet I got married, gosh, I guess almost a year ago now, thank you so much, UM. And I had never thought I would get married, and never thought I'd settle down or any of those things. But I've come to trust him creatively as much as I trust him in any other area of life, because not only will he tell me if he doesn't like something, like, he'll always tell me the truth. I there's lots of people who will tell me that their truth, their opinion. But he'll also really push me outside of my comfort zone. And that's something that I've with everyone else in my life. I've always been able to guard around or like avoid um, and he just knows all the back hallways of my mind and will actually like go straight at it and say, no, you need to push yourself here, or challenge yourself this way, or get out of your comfort zone here, Like your opinion isn't the be all and end all of everything, Like maybe there's more to you that you don't know about yet. And so I really appreciated that. And I will listen to him in a way that I won't listen to anyone else. That's great. I bet it's difficult. I know it's difficult because I deal with that too. And I can tell you I had a show on Saturday night, and so I do this like hour long show that I kind of wrote, and it's comedy, but it's also inspiration. It's called commedically Inspirational, and I wrote it. It's kind of a different type show. It's got I've never seen a show like it, which meant it could have been a disaster could have been amazing, and it kind of started off slightly more on the disaster side, but now we've pushing towards Yeah, it's now it's getting pretty good. But um, I have a couple of jokes that I do during the set because it's a mixture of stand up and kind of motivational speaking. And my wife's like, you shouldn't do this joke anymore and it kills every time, and I was like, you know, but everybody always laughed because you're just better than that joke now. And I'm like, I like, yeah, but everybody laughed, like that's a big, big laugh m And she's like, you're right, it is a big laugh, shes But you could slip on a banana pill out there too, and people would laugh at that. And she's like, you're like, it's low fruit. She means, that's exactly what she said. She's like, they laugh, but you are far better than that. So I would say, please don't and I'm like, I'm doing the joke. I told us I'm doing the joke. I'm doing the joke, you know what I'm talking about doing the joke. And then I get out and now it's in the back of your mind. Well, then I'm like, if I have once, I have five minutes not being what I feel um being defensive or threatened, which I'm not being threatened at all. She's just we have this relationship where I asked her to say stuff and then she says it, and I'm like, oh, there are my feelings, and then I get over it real quick and go, wow, that's great. She said that to me. I didn't do the joke. So I remember, I didn't do the joke, didn't say the joke, got off stage, everything was good, and I said I didn't do the joke, and she goes, I noticed a good job, and I was like, thank she never does a good job and so and she does. But you know, it's kind of a similar thing where I trusted her to say, you know what, I think you're a little better than that, even though everybody else think that's pretty good, because I think you're I think you're better than It's really nice when someone challenges you and is honest with you. It just I mean, even in business, in creative relationships, all kinds of relationships, um, sometimes it's hard to be honest with other people. But whenever anyone's honest with me, I really appreciated it, and you appreciate it immediately, because sometimes I get defensive because I feel like I'm being threatened or they think I'm not worthy or less than, and then I appreciate you well. I think that's part of being an artist, is like you immediately take everything personally like the worst. And also you just assume the worst, you know, like if someone gives you constructive criticism, I always like you almost take it, like you read too far into it, like they're trying to say all these bad things about you or how you have all these weeks, like I'll go way down the route hole there. But if I can get over that, like you said, and if I can look past that um to the actual suggesting that they're trying to give or the truth that they're trying to tell, then you can take that. And you don't have to take that as you know, holy grail. But when you find people who really really get you and are truly in your corner and get your mission and then are giving you advice and telling you their opinion, like my husband or Rick, that that's the best. I don't think I'll ever mature to the point where I'm just like, give me all the bad stuff. But I do feel myself growing in that even though it hurts the same I can also have a little conversation going, you know, in like twenty minutes you're gonna really value Yes, yeah, I have that. I just have to go away with a little bruise ego then come back and talk about it more. I guess it's it's easier to fight back from the bruise because the bruisie goes a great thing. You have a you have a bruisie go. It's easier to fight back from the bruise if you know that, and if you're smart, like I'm not in an arrogant way, but I'm smart, and you're smart like you can you can defend yourself really well, and you can justify yourself really well and say why you're right. But in the end, you don't grow that like that. And you know what, usually even though presenter of the excellent argument, I'm not right right, Like I'll present the argument that I'm right. No walk away going day he was right, but I'm walking away going god, yeah I'm so wrong. Yeah, Or you're just feeling and secure, yeah, Yeah, that's that's Uh, that's cool that you have that with your husband. It's so cool. Is he creative? Does he have a job, that's it all creative? No, he loves music. I mean he's a huge music fan. He has a great ear, and he always says it's great because he has no idea what he's talking about. So he's like from a lay person's perspective, which means he's also not jaded by exactly. Um, he's a professional sailor, so he sails boats around the world, which is really cool. That means he's probably cultured then in an interesting way, very much. So he's lived literally everywhere like Middle East, Australia, Africa, Asia. I want to ask you a question about one of your songs. I listened. We could do this for two hours, just talking about theory of I'm down. Yeah, Like I feel like we could just dial in, but I just have so many questions that when I know you were coming that I made note to ask first. This maybe a weird question you. Um, I want to go Mike, play play come in. And then I have a question about the clearing the throat clearing. Yeah, okay, can you play that? Come in? That's all I need for there, So one more time place coming. Okay, there's always a conversation about this after it's recorded, because my assumption just let me assume for a second and you can correct me or not my correct My assumption is you're just doing the thing where all right, and then you start, well, now you have it on tape, and do you hear it back and go, you know what? Somebody to say, who goes that could be cool to leave in or the whole time was up the plan the ladder. That was actually with that particular song. Sometimes you get cool accidentals that end up making it. But with that song, I had actually written it like that, Like I started like, and I don't know, it's a very sassy song. Hello, hello, yeah, I kind of like, excuse me, yeah, yeah, um, that's a very sassy song. And I kind of wrote it as a joke, like very tongue in cheek. It's a very old country lyrical trope to like take a colloquialism like come in and make yourself comfortable and flip it like that's the oldest country lyric trick in the book. I love that, and so um, when I knew I was writing a song with that, I just I wanted to make it sassy, So that's why I started with the throat clearing. It's so funny now because in sound checks, if I ever go like or whatever, like my whole band going come in beause we're just so used to it. What do you play if I were to put it in from I'm not saying play at the level that you deem play, because there's a difference, But what can I put in front of you and you could play a couple of songs? What instruments? Um, banjo, guitar, dough bro, harmonica and piano, the harmonica? What point did you learn to play that? I'd say. In my early twenties, I was doing solo acoustic shows at high schools and colleges all over the Northeast, and so I started picking up different instruments to try to make my show more interesting, because nothing is more humbling than playing in front of a bunch of like six year olds and they're like nodding their nose and like falling asleep. So I just tried to pick up like I picked up the six string banjo first, and I um got really into like old blues for a while in my early twenties, and UM started playing in the open tunings UM and realized that that's the same way a banjo's tuned or a doll bro And then so it just organically happened. But initially I started picking up those instruments to try to make my solo show more interesting. And then when I got really into production and came here and did a session with mac mcinally and some of the A list players here and saw the level of musicianship that they have, and I just got fascinated by knowing everything about production because I used to hear records when I was a teenager and be like, how the hell did they make it sound like that? Like it just sounds huge? Like how do they make a chorus explode like that? Like what instruments are in there? It's like eating food and being like what ingredients make it taste like this? And and so when I got really into production and into the natural studio scene, that's when I took improving my instrumental abilities more seriously, because I wanted to know how the layers fit together and how to produce. If America was going to say, Okay, we're all getting together at seven o'clock all of America. We're all get together a seven o'clock. We're gonna watch Caroline playing instrument, and we're gonna critique her. What instrument do we correct? Um, probably guitar or piano. Probably guitar. Probably guitar. Yeah, because I tall that's what I spend the most time on. Do you feel strongly that? Where would you rate your guitar? Noists? Let's say I'm giving your report card overall A through F. What what kind of Are you an? Not a roll student? Are you an A minus student A plus? Do you mean in terms of my work ethic or in terms of my ability? I have No, I'm not assigning it in any way. I'm just saying we had not a person. Um, are you in a No? I wouldn't say not in this town. No. No, I wouldn't say I'm an a student. Um gosh. If I'm comparing myself to my heroes, I'd say I'm a solid C plus. So she's probably a B plus bordering a minus because she's also smart enough to know that you've got to play down just a little. Well, yeah, you definitely don't want to, especially in this town. You don't want to oversell yourself, that's for sure. I've seen you play I think your holiday even even in this town. I was just gonna see what you would say. That's very nice. Um, there's so many incredible musicians in this town. But other musicians and able say that about you too, Like they say that you are a great player. Wow, well that means a lot to me. And and being in the background band to me, like that's such a huge seal of validation musically, because I have nothing but more to learn from each and every single one of those guys. There not only amazing musicians, but they fit so well together. They really know how to fit into a mix. And actually I've learned so much just this year just playing shows with them because I kind of got thrown in, Like we never rehearsed or anything. They were just like the first time I played like of the set with them, they rehearsed a couple of songs from their new album, but like of songs they play on stage. The first time I ever played it with them was in front of so what do they say, just learn it and ride along? Yeah? Yeah, And and they and I also have like a database of songs that they might play because they change their set list every night, so I kind of had to prioritize, like They're like, we'll definitely play these songs and then we might play these other thirty so I'd be like, okay, Well, I remember the first night that they because I knew it was coming at some point. They've covered about Heemian Rhapsody, which is like not a chike. It's awesome, but it's a freaking hard song to play and sing. There's lots of not only tempo changes but key changes. And I remember the first night and I was like you you got this one? Like are you okay? And I was like yes, but I um. I was like I knew that day was coming at some point, but I kind of learned it kind of because I knew that they played that rarely. They used to play it a lot more, but it was kind of out of the rotation. But yeah, so a lot of that. The point that I was trying to make is that just learning the last year because there's eight people on stage, it's full, it's a full band, like it's a full sound, it's a full mix, so learning how to fit in, like what part do I play that I can even be heard, you know, or that adds a little bit to the song because they don't really need much if anything. Um, they definitely don't need me, so um that's been a great lesson in production too, and an instrumentation. I was talking to John Mayer once and he had just started playing with The Grateful Dead, and he said it was the most nervous he had been because one he had to go and learn all these songs. So he took his guitar and he went to Montana hold Up and just learned all these songs. Him was nervous. His practice was nervous as he played with him the first time because it wasn't his different type of nerve by him screwing up somebody else's baby instead of his own. Yeah. Well, and especially because he's filling in for an iconic player with a very iconic voice, like a very particular voice, and and that fan base is is um, very very dedicated. But I'm comparing this a little bit to you. You're not filling in for an iconic player, but you are with a band who I think is the greatest country group of all time. And I also think that they have fans in a similar fashion that are so dedicated that if you weren't just up to the elite standard that ZBB presents, they would let you know and it probably wouldn't be fun. Yeah, gosh, that's terrible to think about. Well, I, if anything, I'm just overly like I like to over prepare. I like to um be really respectful and and um pressure. Is there pressure that you don't normally have when you're by yourself when you're playing with them? Is my point? Did you feel a different kind of pressure now that you are taking care of somebody else's kid not your own? Definitely feel a different kind of pressure, But in some ways I feel like I'm more suited to that. It pushes me harder. I have to get out of my comfort zone more as my own artist. Like one thing I know how to do is if someone assigns me something says learn this, be ready for this, Like I can do that. I'm really really have a strong work ethic that way. Um, In terms of the responsibility that I feel to them and to their fans and to the music, I don't know that. I don't want to say it just comes naturally to me, Like I I will work my butt off to make sure that I do a good job for that, um like I would for my own music, like I do for my own music. UM. So the pressure there isn't as strong as if I'm ever out front and set are with them, like where they're really counting on me for a specific part or specific performance or something like that. Then I definitely feel more nervous, But mostly I would just feel lucky to be on stage with them, like trying to fit in. And it's really actually quite a creative endeavor because like I'm trying to figure out how to fit into their mix and what I add, like what I can bring and contribute. You moved during the pandemic to the other country, New Zealand. Ok yeah, okay it was New Zealand. I knew was somewhere, but New Zealand had the crazy strict lot. So why New Zealand And how did you get in and give me that contact? Yeah? This is a great story. Actually, So I met my husband during the pandemic. I was always super career focused, liked percent music like I wasn't that social, didn't have that many like relationships, never really dated around and like I said, never thought I would get married just into my career and I met my husband at the beginning of the pandemic, and um, we'd known each other about six weeks before. He's like, I have to move to New Zealand for a year to be in the America's Cup, which is kind of like the super Bowl of sailing, and they get down there a year before to train in the place, and um, all my tours are being canceled. I was supposed to tour that ear with various artists and it was all canceled and I'm just sitting at home, and so I ended up going with him. We were he went like three or four months, and then I moved and met him. I didn't know I was moving at the time. I thought I was going to visit him, but then I just never came home for like eight months. And it was so cool, Bobby, because it was like having a gap year when you're thirty, Like it was like being suspended in time, Like we didn't have job. I mean, he had a job. I was where I was over in New Zealand like a tourist, like a kid, like just having and so in love. I mean, I'm sure you can relate, but when you meet your person. It's the best feeling in the world. And um, and so I went over there. I was able to get a visa through his team like espousal visa U Yeah, for his girlfriend of two months. And um, so I went over to New Zealand, and as you said, they had a really strict lockdown. I had to quarantine in a hotel for two weeks. And that's when my family and everyone was like, Okay, Caroline is in love, Like she's sitting She's sitting in a hotel room in New Zealand for two weeks for this guy. Um. And then but once you got out, there was no COVID, there was no masks, there was no lockdown, there was no cases. If they had like two cases in the whole country, they just shut the whole place down for like a week. They shut the whole place down. Um. And you know, you can argue now in retrospect that maybe that wasn't that smart, but at the time it was amazing. It was so cool. And New Zealand is Yeah, I've only landed there to go to Australia, so I haven't actually got to spend time. I mean, it's it's the most beautiful place in the world where you guys like, yeah, so once so Um, they actually got eliminated quite early. He's gonna laugh at this conversation. But they got eliminated, um from the America's Cup. And so we had two months in New Zealand when now he didn't wasn't working. So he got a camper and we went around North Island and then we went around the South. Did he have to stay, Um, No, but nobody wanted to go home. Pandemic in America and completely understanding what're done, the same thing. But if there was like a rule like he kicked off survivor they don't let you go home yet some people know, No, they got they had their visas through April through the end of the cup. If they had one, it was sad, but it was also good that they lost because we got to explore and what he said, it was good they lost, Umbre. That's a good question. I don't know, because in some ways he would say it was because we got to go He loves surfing and he got to go surfing for two months. But in other ways, obviously he wishes they didn't lose. Um. It's a you know, it's an amazing race and amazing. Sailing is a really cool, like small niche world that's pretty intense, pretty cool. I'm gonna ask you a tough question, probably the toughest question you've ever been asked. Oh good lord, and I would like an answer, and not at one big pivot because that happens occasionally, But of all the tours you've been on, who has the best catering? That's right, the food, the dinner? Okay, well I have to answer Zack Brown Band, but that's also the truth. M let's remove the band you're in now, like Kenny, Tim and Faith uh Juice of the Eagles. Okay, can you believe that Buffett who had the best when you went? You're like, wow, come on this one. I'm talking about right here, all this food, all the options. I would say Faith and Tim. I only did a couple of shows with them, but that was pretty amazing. Honestly, their whole setup was really top notch, like it was beautiful. Um, but everyone has I'm very grateful for everyone's options, but honestly, Zack Brown Band has the best. Like they're known for their catering even after now that they don't do their eating greats anymore but they still have really good food. Yeah, part of the brand. Yeah it is, Yeah, that's part of the brand. We opened for Garth and he had like eleven types of cake and I was like, this is it. Yeah, they have They regularly have like three or four or five dessert options on zackground. Nothing like when they have that many types of cake, you know everything else is gonna be Yeah. Exactly did you write your own valves? I'm always curious about that as an artist and a writer. Did you write your own vows when you getting ready? Yeah? We wrote them the morning of we He did too, he wrote, UM, we kind of eloped. I guess you could call it. We had like a wedding window. We never want to have a big wedding, um, and we had what we called our wedding window. We're like, we know, I have this time off. We know we're traveling and we'll just feel the fields and get married when its right. And um, because of the was it the delta I can't remember the last variant, but last year, Um, we're supposed to go out of the country and we ended up not being able to because we had a New Year's Eve show? Was that Brown band? I didn't want to get stuck. Um. And so we ended up going to Colorado, to our friend's house in Colorado, and we got married like on the top of a cliff in the snow. So cool. Very last minute, yeah, very last minute. And but it was. It's so funny. People see the pictures and it looks like it was like planned by like a wedding. It looks so beautiful. Um. But we planned it in like two or three days because we just said, I if I already had a ring from engaged, being engaged, and so I just said, if I get him a ring and I got a dress and we just travel with that, we can get married anywhere. Um. And so yeah, the morning of he trecked. He and a couple of our friends trecked all this stuff up the mountain and um, we wrote our valves in the morning and I was freezing. We had like a like a stand up tent where because we had to um, not snowshoe, it's called skin. We had to skin up the mountain to get there. There's like no road. Um, it's not like a long It was like fifteen minutes, but in all our snow gear. And then I had to change into my wedding dress in like this stand up tent the talentan mountain, and then because we knew once I put that on, like the clock was taking because it was like twelve degrees and so I just was so cold, just shivering and crying and shaking and sobbing my way through my vows. But it was really beautiful. It was really special, and it was just it was me and him and three other people. And that really does sound great. You're like, oh, it's called it sounds great, it sounds like a Really it was beautiful. It was so beautiful. I wouldn't have done it any other way. And he's a real like he has a real heart for adventure. So having it be very last minute and we didn't it was very d I y, and so it's very special to us. You do a show similar to this where you talk about music and song writing, who do you like? Who have you spoken with? And you leave and you go, why, I really am not that I didn't expect, you know, just not enjoying it, but I like, wow, look at this, this is actually a lot of fun. Like who was the most unexpected positive I wouldn't say she was unexpected, but At the time that I spoke to her an interviewed her, I didn't know about her as much as I know now. M Amanda Shires. She's so talented and she's a really really deep, smart person. Um. I love talking to her. But I love like I could talk about this stuff forever. I love talking to artists and musicians and intellectuals about this stuff. Um. I love podcasts, like long form podcast I'm so glad that that's a that's a commercial art form now because I just I can listen to those all day. Yeah. Same, It's almost like I need it in two ways, ten seconds for an hour and twenty minutes, and I don't want anything anymore. Don't want a seven minute thing. I need it quick like a TikTok or I want a long form podcast that I can just spend time and invest Isn't it fun? Like I'll go for like a hike or something to just turn on like a two or three hour podcast with someone that I really respect or I'm interested in, and I'm just on the edge of my seat the whole time. I just so I love that stuff in the same way too. You feel like you have a relationship with these people because you spend so much time with them. I mentioned social media, and what's that called that? Para social relationship. The same thing with listening to a podcast, Like I have a podcast that I listened to. I've never met people, but I feel like I know them and they're my friends. Yes, well that's how I feel about you. That's how I feel about lots Zane Low or folks I listened to I think are just amazing interviewers. And the same with artists, Like when artists really open up their chest and are human on these podcasts, it's so refreshing. Say the name of your last record antipoties, See you're smart. Most people try to say and they're like antipoets. I wasn't gonna try, but I knew no one would say it right, and I knew no one would know what it meant. I mean, that was kind of part of the appeal for me. Antipoity is is a term for basically New Zealand, Australia for the opposite side of the world. My mom's Australian, so I'm half Australian and um, obviously New Zealand is really special to me and my husband, especially with that record. I wrote and recorded a lot of it there. How did you record it there? Did you do like a little track situation or did you go into us? We did both, UM, and we were zooming with my engineering producer here. Um you can, yeah, I mean it's pretty high tech, like the way that we ended up working it out. UM. My engineer UM is kind of a ninja, and he worked it so we had like zero latency. He could hear everything latency from that far and play PlayStations on Buddy down the Road. Well, we had to use like three PlayStation We had to use like three or four different Um. Obviously we were recording through proachels, but we were recording there, so the approach like the DW was there, and then through zoom you could talk like in a HIM. But then we had this other thing going called audio movers where you could listen in real time with little to no latency. There were there were there was a lot lay. Yeah, it sounds like I'm trying to think of. You know, what would be cool is if you because again, if you can record, Let's say we'd record here and sometimes I do the show from here and some of the other guys are in their studio or I'm in another state, right, I travel a lot the do the show at the radio show, and you know, even though there's a little bit of latency, but we can work from two different places and hear each other. But it would be cool if musically there was some sort of translator. And maybe there is where you can play a note and it understands it and it doesn't have to actually send the note again, send the data from the note and the the tone through you know, ones and nose to the other. And maybe that's a thing where you can translate music from far away. I'm not I'm not a tech head to the degree that you're discussing now. I have endies and engineers who are who could answer that question much better than I can. I know you can't physically play with no latency with someone else in another state or country yet, as far as I know, And someone correct me if I'm wrong. Um, but what you're talking about is basically like what Middy is. You know, where you play a note and it recognizes it um and interprets it in a computer. So I'm sure that we're getting to where you're getting to the place that you're talking about. I just don't think we're there yet. Like, you definitely can't play with no latency with someone else or sing with someone else with no latency yet. That would be because though you're actually send yes, right, you can't. But that would be because you're actually sending that tone data translation that is almost instantaneous. That would eliminate that. I have no idea to invent that, but I we've got to be close to that. I don't either, Like I'm trying to think if middy is the way to do that, or if MIDDI creates latency. What if we invented like the ultimate recording technique people all around the world in real time right now? Well, I'm sure some of your listeners can answer some of these questions better than none of them. None of them can. There's at least two people I know I'll call after this and see what's possible. I do want to play a couple of tracks here, and I know your record came out last November. Yeah, yeah, so it's been a year or so before I play a couple of tracks here. Um, what are you doing new Caroline Jones music? Yeah, that's that's what I was going to lead up to. What what's the deal. Well, I've been writing a lot. We have two songs done, and I've just been in the last few months I got into another like super creative phase. It's so funny how it comes and goes. Um. But I've been really really inspired. I've been writing a lot by myself. I've been co writing a lot in town um and Yeah, I'm gonna hopefully finish out at least an ap, hopefully a record um December January when we're off the road, and definitely come out with a new song by January February and new music by hopefully spring. Let me play a couple of little Because of legal rules, we only play five seconds. Now we get I know, what would you do? Make a speed it way up like a whole song track? Eight is what have you wanted to play a little bit of this one? Look at you and then give me number twelve. Everybody's rebble till they fall in love. Okay, so I went super Tom Petty. It does not to Tom Petty. It does feel kind of like we play that again. The drums. The drums sound very Tom Petty. Yeah, they you know near Zy who played on it in Gus my engineer they really nailed that, like seventies eighties breezy drums sound, Um, everybody's reble till they fall in love? That's you. Yeah. Yeah, did you write that with anyone else? So you write that about you? In your perspective? And did you feel like you were that rebel and you were never going to fall in love? Yeah? I still feel like that sometimes. I still can't believe I'm married. Um. Yeah, that song is just poking fun at myself because, like I've told you several times during this interview, I never thought I would get married, never thought I would settle down. I just thought it'd be a musical gypsy my whole life. And I truly thought that my career and my job and how dedicated and committed I am to it just didn't allow for a partnership. And I'm so glad I was wrong. I mean, I just had no idea what a partnership could be. Um. But that song basically just pokes fun at myself for all the things I said I would never do that I came around. I relate to that on so many levels. Same. Yeah, it was like, you know what, because I didn't ge married tells forty never had a really serious relationship, and I was like, you know, I've had a sacrifice a lot, and I'm cool with that. I'm just gonna keep sacrificing because I want to be the greatest at what I do. And I thought, I don't know if I have the capacity for it because I'm so dedicated to this. And also, I don't know if you felt like this, but I was terrified that I would promise someone something more than I, like in my heart, could really give. Like I really thought that I had to give so much to my music and my artistry that I would disappoint someone else and and that they would have all these kind of unmet needs and expectations. And I'm really scared of I was scared of that. Um. But like I said, I was just dead wrong. I just didn't know what partnership was. You know, I've been pretty good about that part. I thought the same thing. Pretty I just disappointed her in other ways now that I never disappointer you know, so many other ways. Who knew? Who knew? Okay, so the rest of the year, are you out? Was that, yeah, we're out. We're kind of wrapping up now, and I have a few of my own shows left, um, and I'm going out for a little bit with Home Free, which will be fun. But yeah, it's kind of wrapping up now. We've been touring since April, so it's been a long tour. Retired or do you get home enough to catch up in the middle more the ladder, Like I get home a good amount, but I would say their pockets where I get really Like the last ten days, the what crushed us was a couple of privates that we booked that like, I just kept having to fly across the country that kind of crushed me. I mean we were in um Arizona, Atlanta, Colorado, Seattle, Montana. Like it was just crazy. So I would say this week has been really tiring because then you come home and all the rights and all the meetings and all the good stuff here in Nashville that I want to do that I've scheduled for the one week I'm home, then you're like straight into it. Um. But as I tell tell my manager, like I've only ever dreamed of being this busy, So I feel really lucky. That's so funny you say that. I talked about how lucky and to be this tired all the time. It's like I've always wanted to be this tired. Yeah, I just want to make sure. I just want to make sure I'm able that if a schedule like I always want to be able to give my best. I don't want to ever be at a place where I'm so strung out that I feel like I can't give what I need to give To hit the brakes. I had to hit the brakes because of that same thing. I'm lucky I haven't had to do that yet. But I'm sure you're way busier than I am. You're way more talented than I am. I mean, that's what it is. There's a difference here. We actually have skills. You guys, follow Caroline at Caroline Jones. UM, I encourage you to go check out a record which I wouldn't say because I knew I wouldn't say it right and I want to cool enough antivities I hear you. I'm still not gonna walk down it, but it's spelled antipodes in case you guys, and we'll put it up in the notes here for this. UM, I really like to sell Matt from Old Dominion. Thank you so much. That's a really special that's my nixt story so many. Yeah, so I hope you guys are going to check check it out. And you know, back in the old days, three months ago, we could play a lot more music on this can we might until the music cops came and said, really, what was the process for that? Well, it's been a slow like illegal. So it's been a slow change over the last two or three years because, as you know, the digital spaces a while west until it's not and all the laws, the sheriff's come into town and all these areas of in the digital world, and so you can't put on demand music in a place like if I wanted to listen to your music, I have to go somewhere I have to subscribe to it being on demand. But if I put it on this where you get it for free and you just skip for it and you can cut it out. So mostly it's that you can't put things up that people have to pay for. But is that the idea because this podcast is monetized or is it because like on social media, that's all it is. It's just they they pay music royalty rights for those songs. And the difference for this used to be that we could say we were what was the teritorial editorial because we're news and that doesn't even work anymore. Got it. Well, that's actually my biggest I don't want to say fear, but my biggest concern about the future of country music and for this town is like how the Hecker songwriters gonna get paid in five ten years, like and because as other types of media take precedence over radio or are as influential as radio, because that's how songwriters make money. And even now it's like so competitive to get a single for a songwriter. Um, I just wonder, like songwriters are the entire backbone of this whole industry that is country music, and I just wonder. I just I know there's people out in the front lines trying to make it happen. But like the fact that songwriters don't get paid properly for streaming and like is mind blowing to me. That's a big one. I have friends that go and testify and they go to d C, and I mean, it's going to happen. It's just you think you think it already would have m right. I think it has to happen because honestly, how to all these there's thousands, there's one thing. There's hundreds of artists whatever, maybe thousands, but there's thousands of songwriters here that all have publishing deals and all rely on this industry to make a living, to like put food on the table and are the backbone of this industry. And yeah, that might downsize a little like labels have or other things have, but they're not really going anywhere. You know, people are always going to write songs here. And I think, yeah, I think they're going to have to monetize streaming. I don't see what argument they even have to not. I think pay songwriters, that the payment comes if the lobbyists are getting paid enough to do the lobbying. You know, I don't think there's ever anybody in Congress it goes Let's just do it because it's right. That's not, that's not that's not how really it works. And it's just so it seems like such an I mean, this is like a bigger political philosophical conversation, but like it just seems like such an easy win for a politician to be like this is right, and it's no skin off my teeth, by the way, Like what is it do for me either way? You know, yes, I'm on your team completely. But then I also understand where there's a lot of money and I won't even mention any streaming services because it's all the same where they're like, wait, we don't want to pay any more money than we have to write. And if they can fund wonderful lobbyists or wonderful folks to actually fight the other, that's all it, it's all, it's it's all bottom lines. I think I'm just too and to listen that way, like, I can't imagine profiting us something that I know other people who are creating it aren't getting paid, Like, I just can't. It's not in me, And I agree with you. It's just how do we find the way because I've been asked to speak on some of these things too, how do we find the way to incentivize them to change it, not because of what the right thing to do is, but how it's going to benefit them? Right, the people making the laws need to know that they're benefiting in some way. That's it. That's it people getting elected or just getting elected because they're only running too, and they're only running, they're only staying in office to get elected again. So it's how do we incentivize them to make it probor and right now, and also incentivizes streaming services to understand that if there's no songwriters, there's no songs, you know. I mean, I know that they feel like they have a hold over everything. But actually this brings me to one more question. And I know we're probably out of time, but um, do you are you still interested in getting into politics because that it's samps to wade into. But we need more people who are good, honest people, but it seems like it corrupts so many people. Yes, it's you need people that are good, honest people that don't need the political system to want to be in politics, which is it's rare. Yeah, and so and it is so gross right now that I really felt like I had a chance to do it this coming up November when the election was last year. But it's it's so disgusting and I don't claim to you mean, like just by like dipping your toe in the water, you kind of saw things that you really awful. And it's all just money too, It's always it's just raising well that's what's so tough, all of it. And then once you get enough money, it is it's vile. So um, you're right because by definition, even to get to a place where someone where you're on a ballot, like you have to raise and spend and kiss, but to get so much money and even that is corrupt, that's all it is. And then all the people you got money from, okay, well they expect something because they're not just giving you money to to go be a good guy. Some might. So you need someone that doesn't need to run for office, to actually run for office, and who wants to run for office but they don't need to run exactly. It's like Bloomberg, like he he was a really smart guy, like he's pretty centrist, like great head on his shoulders, and he just couldn't get and he just wasn't polarizing enough, like he wasn't extreme enough for everyone. It's and that's also how you cut through, right. It's like if you want to be on c An Inner, Fox News or pick any they don't care about moderates because moderates don't get clicks. And these are actual news organizations. But when I say actual news organizations, they have to make money. They have to profit off of ads, and how do you and they're competing with social media, and to make money off ads is by getting a number, by getting a rating point. And how do you get ready point? You put on polarizing figures. And when when we have these conversations, I just feel like sometimes I just feel like, oh my god, we're screwed, Like our culture is so screwed up. Because it is, it's so messed up, and everybody knows it, but it's it's very entrenched in a lot of systems. It's oh yeah, you know everywhere. Um My only hope is that as I and it is funny how we'll go back to this and will end on this, is that as I talked about the cyclical nature of country music and people going, well that it's not country, that's not country. That happens over and over again. The same thing happens in politics. I mean, you can look at you a norm war. You could look at where there were times like now where people are like, this is the worst ever been and it s proably the end of it is the end of the world. And it's been so many times. You could go through there four or five things in America has been around that long. It seems like to us it has been. But no it hasn't not compared to others. We'll call them civilizations, um empires. However you want to define the link that we've been here seven you know, not very long, a couple years. We've had four or five of these that come back around. But we're like, this is it, this is the end um. You can go the wars, you can go Vietnam, you can go with all of this. But what happens is every so often, somebody or something a very for the use of this conversation, a centric force seems to rise. It could be something positive or negative and brings people together. Negative will nine eleven. We were all on the same team for a little bit positive the Rock. But I'm just saying it could be it's that it's going to take something unexpected. It's gonna be some someone that is kind of unsuspecting that's going to happen to them, and they've got a responsibility or something, and that's a metiaor coming down falling at Earth. I do feel like this young generation is more aware in some way. I agree environment and you're right about the cyclical nature. Like my dad, that's what he basically does for a living, is like look at big systems and long arcs of things, and and he always says that he always gives me the forty ft few because it's true. Things just come and go and come around again. And human nature and country music. Yeah, nature and country Caroline. I've enjoyed this, Thank you very much, Thank you so much. I could have done another hour me too. I would love to at Caroline Jones. You guys follow her on Instagram and TikTok and see her out with ZBB. But really, when you get we get your new music, let us know, well, do you get it. I can't wait to hear it. And it's been a real treat to spend this time with you. Thank you so much. You guys, go follow Caroline at Caroline Jones