Quiet Quitting, Beautiful Boundaries, and Fall Fun

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and sixty seven, airing in mid September of twenty twenty two. We are going to be talking about quiet quitting and different ways of working in general. We will also be talking about fall fun. Many alliterations, as Sarah just pointed out to be though, we seem to like repeating consonants in things. So Sarah, as we're talking about how people work, you recently shared the news both on this podcast and on your blog about changing your work situation. So real quick for anyone who is just coming to us now, can you sort of give a quick recap of what's gone on yeah, well, there have been a number of iterations over the years. I at of residence or at a fellowship, took a full time clinical job. Then a few years later, I think I dialed down to eighty percent, but then I ended up adding a leadership role in graduate medical education and kind of found that that more knowledge work type of role didn't necessarily lend itself as much to being so part time, as I felt like my work was bleeding into my quote unquote off time, and then eventually went up to ninety percent and then up to one hundred percent as that kind of evolved, which made sense. But then I reevaluated and realized I really missed the freedom and flexibility of being part time, and twenty percent no longer felt like enough, and for complex reasons, I decided to step down for my leadership role. Really a bitter sweet decision, but I think the right one for me right now, and settled on sixty percent as a good compromise where I think I can really continue to make a clinical impact and enjoy my clinical work three days a week and then devote the rest of my time to more flexible pursuits such as those related to this podcast. Yay. Exciting. Well, we know a lot of our listeners and your readers are excited to think that they might be getting more shoe content in the course of this trade off. So is it going to be the same three days or how does that even work when you set up clinical time? I mean, what does that mean practically? Yeah, it's going to be like ultimately a Monday, Wednesday, Friday situation, so that I can feel on Tuesday and Thursday like I am not on the clock for my workplace. I still will be taking call, although at a proportional amount. And yeah, I think it's going to work pretty well. And was there any pushback from your organization about going part time or is that something that people do relatively frequently. I don't know how frequently it's done at my organization, but I have to say they were incredibly supportive and I am really grateful that they have let me make all these changes. I'm not sure that would be true everywhere. Yeah, Well, we wanted to sort of branch out from that to talk about, you know, how people are interacting with jobs and job expectations and sort of the number of hours they work and all that. Many people know that I am interested in work hours and how people work them. There's a phenomenon where, especially people who are in jobs that are a little bit more free flowing, and things happen at different times and it's not the same sort of in a place every day. There is a tendency to sort of overestimate how many hours we work, sometimes to a comical degree. I often talk about a study that found people claiming seventy five plus hour work weeks were off by about twenty five hours, that that eighty hour work week is in fact fifty five hours, and fifty five hours is very long, but it is not eighty, which is a different number. I have tracked my time for a great many years. I was probably working roughly forty hours a week for a long time, and then I think these days it's probably more between thirty five and forty on average. Some periods of time it winds up being less just because of more household responsibilities. This summer has been on the lower side because of various things. I'm really hoping to ramp it back up a little bit this fall and hit closer to forty, because I do think it matters, like especially you know, in jobs where you aren't doing the same thing with all those forty hours. There are things you wind up doing when you're working more hours, obviously to a point of diminishing returns, but that you sort of invest in moving your career forward. I mean the things like the networking, investing in knowledge or improving your skills, all the things that I talk about paying into your career cappital And I know that from my perspective, those things do wind up getting short shrift when my hours go too low. So yeah, it's always a question of you know, figuring out what you want to be investing in. I know Sarah is looking to invest in lots of different, you know, creative projects right now, which is really awesome. There's been a phenomenon Sarah has been following this of quiet quitting. What drew you to this phrase that you keep looking fighting and mentioning Sarah? Well, first, it's an alliteration. It's an extremely catchy phrase. So once I heard it, I would just sort of thought it was very interesting. I think I initially saw it on a little NPR piece, maybe Life Kid, or maybe just some little blurb on the news, and then have delved into it a little bit further in part because I wondered if I had accidentally done a version of this. And I don't mean to say that really, because when I read about quiet quitting, it tends to have an angle and we'll talk about what it is in just one second, but I feel like it tends to have an angle of like like a negative. I don't know, like, how dare you exploit me? I'm gonna show you kind of a vibe to it, And that certainly was never really how I ended up lessening some of my extra work committees and activities. But at the same time, that's what drew my attention. Okay, so a little background, and I did a little googling, a little like googling, and I read via BBC work Life they wrote. The phrase quiet quitting was popularized by user at zk chillin. I don't know if that's a I think it's a TikTok user in a July twenty twenty two video that now has three point five million views, spawning an online phenomenon. You're not outright quitting your job, but you're quitting the idea of going above and beyond. He explained, You're still performing your duties, but you're no longer subscribing to the hustle culture mentality that work has to be your life. The reality is it's not, and you're worth as a person is not defined by your labor. This was his quote, not mine, so I read further and it sounds like, you know, one version of quiet quitting is you're clocking in at when you're supposed to do. Maybe it's nine o'clock, maybe it's a thirty, and you're leaving on time, and you're doing all of your kind of required job descriptions. You're cranking out whatever wiges you're supposed to crank out, but you're not going at all above that expectation, and you're really not giving any additional hours to your work. And I don't know. I like Laura's going to talk about like this not being new, and I agree with that. I don't have a value judgment on that necessarily as being good or bad. I mean, to some extent, I wonder if people that kind of are more careful with not doing a lot of extra stuff, how do I put this? They might be more sustainable in their jobs over time because they do have time to sleep or take care of themselves. They might be you know, just living more balanced lives and in spending more time doing other hobbies. Who knows, maybe they'll bring more creative and original ideas to their actual work during work hours. Like I don't think this is so incredibly black and white. I don't know. I just have really mixed feelings about it. I also don't think that I really quiet quit, but again, there was sort of some version of that in that spawned by the pandemic. I ended up on all these committees that were meeting on WebEx, which is like our version of Zoom, and that was really sustainable when everything was virtual, and then when it wasn't, I was like, no, no, no, my life is a disaster. And how did I end up on ten committees? And I don't want to do you know, I don't want to start work every day at seven thirty am. How did this happen? And then I kind of scaled back to just my core responsibilities. So this was way before deciding to go part time, and I did not know the term quiet quitting whatsoever. But then when I look back on it, I'm like, does it look like I did? I don't know. Well, I think one of the reasons that this becomes a thing that's then written about is because it can bring about so many different interpretations. So there's one version where this is just a new name for doing the bare minimum at your job, which is what many millions of people have no doubt done for eons. Right, Like there's always been people who, you know, for whatever reason, there's some folks who, let's say, are three years from retirement and are just phoning it in at this point but waiting for a pension to vest. And so, yes, you come in, you do exactly what you're supposed to do, You do nothing more, you leave when it's done. You know, there are people who are in a stage of life where they don't care about a particular job for one reason or another. They need the money, but it's not where their their mind is. You know, some people don't enjoy working in general, right, I mean, there's all sorts of reasons that somebody might do the bare minimum of their job. I think, you know, then there's other interpretations of it, which is that, you know, some jobs are by their nature meant to be kind of we're all consuming, and people pushing back against that, and I think that's a different matter, right, that's somebody setting more boundaries, which may be more what you were doing that you just you know, decide like I don't need to push for every single extra thing. You know, it's fine to do a good job. So we're not talking the bare minimum of the job, but doing a good job, but not necessarily being like I am angling to be, you know, the CEO of my hospital system in two years, and so I'm going to do everything to make that happen. Right. That's that's sort of you know, a different version of it, which I think a lot of us could be way more into. I mean by that means we're all quiet quitting. I think that is such an important as you were saying that, that actually like litt up light bulbs on my head because no, no, no, I want to be excellent. I don't even just want to be good. I want to be excellent during work hours. I want to take excellent care of my patients. I just got to a point where I didn't feel like I wanted to do extra things heaped on top of that that weren't really my primary job role, but like might have had career like leadership implications later on, if that makes sense, And I guess maybe that's not the same thing as quiet quitting. To me, that's okay. Whereas the idea of like going to work with a scowl in your face and like basically dumping work on other people and doing the bare miniam not to get fired like that, that does sound very negative to me. And I guess I'm unclear on which which one. Yeah, I think that's it. People could interpret it all sorts of different ways. And then I mean, there's a third sort of view of this, not just not even so much quiet quitting, but one person that was interviewed in a story on quiet quitting, I'm like, this needs an totally different, you know, other word. But they were interviewing a woman who had in the past done more intense jobs that were more sort of cerebral, and she decided at some point to take a job in a warehouse. And you know, she goes in for eight hours a day, she does exactly the tasks that are assigned her. Nobody's pushing to do anything else. I mean, maybe there are people who, I'm sure, you know, people would probably love to have her end management moving up, But you can, in fact just do the job that is in front of you, and that is what you are supposed to do. You don't have to think about it afterwards. You come in and you are assigned these tasks for the eight hours, and you do them and then you are done and you go home and you don't think about it, right, And so I think that's even a third version of this, which sometimes people want to have jobs like that for various reasons. I mean, maybe they have a very intense side hustle, they are launching or creative projects that they want to focus on where they don't want to put mental energy into whatever it is the job that is then earning them money. Yes, No, that totally makes sense, and that's very interesting warehouse worker like attorney to warehouse worker. To me, there's a little bit of like a i don't know, like a meditative quality to that, Like that's kind of like the modern day version of going to an ashrom for two years, like I'm gonna work for Amazon, I don't know. I mean, though they could be really intense, I don't think it was Amazon because I think there are some conditions there that sometimes has been correct and you know, people worried about with being very intense jobs. I think this is more sort of a job that was taken precisely because it was sort of not a very intense way to spend eight hours. So you know, different places are different, but you know, yeah, do you think this is something that I mean, with the idea of setting healthy boundaries is just entirely different. And what does that sort of look like? I mean, if somebody's thinking about this, if they're thinking, well, I don't want to quit my job, but I do need to make it more sustainable, I mean, what do you think they should be thinking about then? I mean, I would pay attention to what you feel like the core part of your job is, and which parts are maybe either non rewardable or might even be taking away from the core part of your job, and where are they going to lead, Like if you're on not all work is promotable work, And we actually may have a guest with this expertise, and a lot of people feel like a lot of that non promotable work tends to be done by women. And we've actually gotten I've gotten some really mind blowing comments on my blog when I was writing about this, Like there was a woman who was very high up in her organization but was like the only one who knew how to set up like the zoom equipment and order lunch, and like when she wasn't there, all these men were like floundering around and like that's extra work she was doing, but that's not promotable work. I mean that is just like I think she should quietly quit ordering lunch. Like that's not that's not part of that's not going to advance her. She's not learning, she's not, you know, contributing what she does best. So I guess really looking and into yourself and being like what do I want to excel at? Like what am I really here to do? Like what matters in this role and does it fit within the time constraints? Like for me, part of this was Okay, I want to be able to really focus on clinic. When I'm at clinic. I don't want to get fifteen emails about like you have to present at this meeting and that meeting and like be trying to cram to present an X meeting like between patients. Like I actually at some point felt like, you know, these extras were kind of making my core roles more difficult, if that makes sense, and they weren't leading me down any specific track like being on the peer Review committee. Like if again, if I was eventually seeking to be CMO or take some big leadership role, then having a lot of committee memberships and eventually like leading those committees would be important. But that's actually not where my dreams have really ever been. When I searched within myself, I was like, no, I want to be an excellent clinician and I want to like honestly, I mean, now I've finally figured out, after a lot of soul searching, I want to grow my creative endeavors. I don't want to be CWO or CMO or whatever that is. So that helped me figure out where it made sense to set boundaries. And that's why you're right, I do not think I quietly quit. Well, also, you didn't quit, so there's yeah. I mean, and if somebody's maybe this phrase came because it's the alternative to actually quitting. That if somebody is really feeling burnt out in a job, then you you know, many times people think they do need to quit, and so this would be a way to not quit. But to get some of the benefits of quitting is to kind of take away all the pressure you would put on yourself to keep doing more and more. But I think if we just view it in the sense of setting healthy boundaries, then it's an entirely different matter whatsoever. And then, you know, we could go through phrases of quietly quitting, you know, here and there, like I'm going to quietly quit this week because I've just got a lot of stuff going on in my personal life, but then I'm back at it next week. And probably a lot of our listeners have gone through more intense periods and then less intense periods when life, your personal life, for instance, might be have a lot going on and you need to take a little step back to deal with that, but aren't in a position to officially go part time or may not want to. So I think that's something people do. Well, We're going to take a quick ad break and we'll be back with the second half of this episode. All right, we're back. And while we were gone, I was trying to think of different alliterations we could use for our version, and I came up with like beautiful boundary setting and powerful prioritization. But I don't think either of those are going to well. I like that take over. Those are great, So we are beautiful boundary setters, and we are powerful prioritizationers. We are not quietly quitting. We're doing other things. Yes, so that's great. Shall we talk about fall? Now? Is it time to talk about falls? It's totally time to talk about fall. We're probably who does They'll be like some heat wave when this is airing in mid mid September, and there always is And of course you don't really have a fall at all, do you. I mean, there's do leaves change, There's no, no way, there's Okay, so there's absolutely no fall, certainly not in the fall months. I mean maybe we have like fall like weather in December or something like that. Maybe in November it cools down. But I have decided, since I'm for the time being not planning on going anywhere else, I'm gonna have to figure out ways to embrace fall even when it's not fall. And so I came up with some things, and I'm planning to try to like really lean into fall this year, even though it's going to be ninety degrees with eighty seven percent humidity like it is every other day of the year. All right, So what is on your embrace fall list? Okay? So I want to do a Fall reading list, and and Bogol always does a Fall reading list, so I will look at her selections and as always use that to help craft my selections. And to me, fall reading is like some darker tone things, like some mysteries, some things set in academic settings are always great for Fall. I think I might help the kids find some like spookier fall selections because we've been trying to work on getting more stuff from our local library and like ordering that ahead of time. So Fall reading list. Having fun with my planner setups because that's just part of my fall rhythm and routine around here, and I'm super excited. By the time this airs. My hope Buonichi Banks from Japan will probably already are riven and I'll be very happy. We started this last year. We do an annual Trader Joe's Pumpkin Extravaganza where you have to go in October. September is too early, they don't have enough stuff. But in October you can go and shop for everything pumpkin and go home with like twenty different products and just eat all of them and it's really really fun. We had like a meal that was literally like pumpkin samosa with pumpkin cookies on the side, with like crackers and pumpkin jo I mean, it was like extra. It was so much fun. I want to bake some kind of apple dessert because I just I never do, and I think that would be really fun. And then even though we don't get fall weather, we still get to some degree less than you do, but to some degree dark, shorter days, and longer nights, and of course we get the October time change. Maybe it's November, but you know, fall time change. And so I want to lean into that by lighting a few candles and trying to kind of like hit that fall mood, maybe some fall sense. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm going to be a fall What is that like, n meg? I don't know. Okay, Well, I will preface this with the fact that one of my favorite podcast, which is Girls next Door podcast, they do a fall fun episode and one of their activities is they buy fall scented candles and they have to guess what the scent is called. And there are always things like pine forest or like caramel apple crumble, or like I don't know, but you know, there is that like generic woodsy automny fallse smell, and I'm sure like missus Myers are not a sponsor, by the way, or other similar products will have some fall scented things I can get my hands on, including candles candy as well. Yeah, no, I have not. Maybe by the time this comes out, I will have published my official Fall fun list, But it always has things like apple picking. Even though my favorite apples are more of a late summer fruit, the honey crisp tend to be August in early September, not October, so keep that in mind. Look, if you have a favorite type of apple, look to see when it actually ripens, because it may not be October, and if you are pairing that with your fall fun fest, you may be bitterly disappointed. I want to do a leaf peeping trip. We'll probably go visit my brother again in Upstate New York. They have a lot of very beautiful trees and leaves there, and it's a little easier to get to than farther north than that. Let's see what else. So yeah, apple picking leaves, huh, I don't know. I mean, I think it's a lot just getting outside and seeing the changing leaves, Like really appreciating those times I do want to read something fall related. Maybe I should listen to some fall music. I definitely did that in the spring and got into Aaron Copland's apple Achian Spring and some pieces like that. So I think maybe if I find some sort of fall music that would make me feel more in touch with the season. But I always do really love fall. It makes me there's something about I don't know, the color that's out there. It's just so beautiful, and it's just, I mean, extravagantly beautiful, Like why do we even get these colors? Makes sense in the spring that things have to flower and attract insects and birds to pollinate. They could sort of see that more rationally, But the last gasp of the dying leaves is just like the fact that it's esthetically attractive is pretty exciting. And we definitely live in a place with all four seasons, so try to be outside as much as possible in October and early November while those beautiful scenery are actually happening. Love it. I'm jealous of your leaves. I don't think this is going to be the year for our leaf peeping trip. It's a tough time school calendar wise, but eventually we'll make it happen. We'll have to go up to Pennsylvania or maybe even like I mean my college, the mountains and different colors. Oh my god, it was like gorgeousing. Yeah, well this year, yeah, there's not really good breaks in October. It's like the month where you don't have it. We get October fifth off for yam Kapor this year, but it's just like smack in the middle of the week. I think it's a Wednesday or something, so it's not like you get to planned a long weekend around it. And we do get a long weekend for Rashashana, but it's in late September, so that's way too early. I mean, you'd have to go to I don't know, Canada, Maine very far north and Maine to get the leaves during that trip, which you know, I guess we could but probably won't. So I have to take that trip. We'll just do a quick Saturday a Sunday sort of thing in October you know who knows. But yeah, no, I'm looking forward to fall. Bring out those boots the sweaters again. I feel like I just packed them away. I guess summer's gone. Really quick, but I didn't get around to dry cleaning my sweaters until June or something like that. So stay tuned for all the fall fun lists on the blog. All right, So let's move on to the question, and this is mostly for Sarah here, I think it's for both of us lines, all right, So it was originally submitted, but we have repurposed for this podcast. How and where do you find time for all the little administrative odds and ends that come with having kids? For instance, planning birthday parties, ordering school pictures, submitting school health forms, even ordering kids clothing? Is it during breaks from work? Is it in the evening? Is it on weekend? So Sarah, when do you do these things? And do you have a system? And I actually do have an answer to this question, So I'm glad I knew you did. Thank you. You have a lot of kids, You have a lot of things to keep track of, like really, and a lot of schools which I don't even have. So first of all, before I answer your actual question, I just will say, like, having a systematic way of capturing these tasks so that when you do have times to do them, you're not searching to try to remember what they are is like half the battle for me. So when I see one of these things pop up, I will capture it somewhere, usually my planner on the like if it's something that's fairly immediate on my weekly view, I will put it on my weekly list, and I'll know that I you know, now I have a place where I will go when I do have free time to go tackle some of these things. So I guess make sure you are capturing them in a way that doesn't make you like you are missing all of these loose ends all the time. Then, in terms of like practically, what are my actual real time windows for me, it tends to be sometimes on my lunch break at work, if I power through my morning patients, I can be done with all my notes by twelve, and then my afternoon patients don't start till like one one fifteen, So there's usually some time in there because I'm a fast eater and it doesn't take me a whole hour, so that can be admin time. I might even have like a no show and get some stuff done during that time. Or if on a Friday, I'm done with all of my work admin, I can you know, get a couple of these quick little things done, especially again if I have my list easily available after work, if my kids have earned a little bit of screen time. Sometimes there's some times so kids screen time is a time although that that's gotten a little bit narrow work because we kind of are on a very strict bedtime routine these days. And then my big like get the whole list done, would be on weekend afternoons. The kids are on their iPads. They need like no intervention, they can entertain themselves, and that's usually a few hours for me to take a nap, read a book, and power through a lot of these types of lists. I also feel like a lot of these have rhythms with help, like don't reinvent the wheel. Stick to the same types of brands for clothing. If you get a birthday party, invite like order the gift immediately, like make it something easy. If you always know you order X y Z for a certain age group, it takes like thirty seconds to just put in the order. Always have gift wrap around and just replenish it when it's getting low. And then you did mention help form. So I'll say my one hack is that I always keep versions of the old ones handy, so you can if they're payper forms, you can just copy from one year to another. So there's actually in my upcoming book, Tranquility by Tuesday, one of the rules is batch the little things. This is actually rule number eight. And many of these tasks would fall squarely into the category of little things. They do need to get done, but they tend not to be urgent, and so I would encourage you to designate a chunk of time during what is not your peak time. Right, So, if you are the kind of person who is more energetic and focused in the morning, you should choose a small window of time in the afternoon when you will not be focusing on deeper work or things like that, to plow through all of these things at once. So I create what I call a Friday punch list, and so I power through all these things on Friday. Anything that can wait till Friday that is on this list gets done in a chunk of time on Friday, I go through it, try to get as much done, and I don't know, like an hour, and you can do a lot if you're just sitting down knocking out one thing after another. It can even feel kind of motiving. Because you keep crossing stuff up. I mean, these are like these two minute tasks you crossuff over and over. Now, of course, the fact that they are two minute tasks raises the question because some people then point out the long standing productivity advice that if something only takes two minutes, you should just do it when you think of it. And that's why I heard Sarah mentioned like by that birthday present immediately, and maybe that works for you. I would say that you might want to think about whether you want to do this right, because yes, if a task only takes two minutes, theoretically it would take more time to pull it back up a second time and get in the brain space to do it than if you just did it the first time. But it can be very easy to interrupt ourselves with two minute tasks, and you can wind up with like dozens of two minute tasks, and then you feel like you're only doing two minute tasks, right, Like your entire day is consumed with two minute tasks. And sometimes it feels good because we're crossing stuff off the list, right, Like if you order a birthday present, it's ordered, it's done, like you did it, Yay, it didn't require much thought, and it's done, and so you feel this sense of accomplishment, whereas like sometimes wrestling with deeper matters and harder work doesn't give you that same sense of accomplishment, and so we can distract ourselves from that deeper work to go get the easy win. So I would just challenge you to think about whether you really want to do that right, So, like, carve out time for your deeper work, make a bucket of time, time for all the little tasks. And then when you find yourself, you know, trying to pull away from deeper work, being like, oh, let me just go order that birthday present, let me just go fill out that helpful I have to do it right. You don't have to do it then like say no, no, there's a time for that. Now is not that time? And that can keep you more focused and also make you keep you from feeling like these tasks are taking over your life. I just have to give a small counterpoint to the birthday thing, which is that if I've already been interrupted by a text with a birthday invite and I need to then process that and put it on my calendar, I feel like I've already lost my flow and that is an argument for turning off your inputs, so you couldn't even get an invite when you're doing something important. And if you're not and you're checking your email and that invite comes, then that's probably a time when it would be fine to order the gift immediately, like I batch it with like Okay, I've gotten I've received this thing. I'm allowing that to interrupt me. It's going on my calendar and the gift is being ordered. Period. The event is over, it's done, I'm ready. If that kind of makes sense, I mean, I totally get what you're saying, but I think there is like an element of like controlling your inputs there. That's very important. Yeah, once you've allowed for the interruption, you could see it through completely. But in many cases it would be better not to allow for the interruption, if that is at all possible. One of the things we've been talking about right with us sometimes that we want to focus on the work we are doing and not be interrupted by a million other things. And that's part of not quiet quitting, but beautiful boundaries. Right. So, Sarah, I quit love of the week. Hmm, Well, I can just tell you that my love of the week. This week is that I am booking some theater tickets and I'm super excited. I guess this is more of an anticipation of the week, but I was in Little Shop of Horrors in college, and I'm just super excited. They're they're doing a performance of that at like our local theater, and I just bought them and I'm super excited. Yay, Yeah, sounds awesome. My love of the week, I'm gonna say Nick plus Zoe. I don't know if people say Nick and Zoe or Nick plus Zoe the brand. I've bought a couple of light sweaters, slash, layering tanks, slash other things from them, and I tend to like their cuts, at least the solid color ones of them. They've got some crazy looking T shirts and stuff that I'm not as into, but they also have some fairly classic, like boat neck navy lightweight sweater, which turns out you can wear a lot, or a layering black tank that has sort of a higher neckline and covers your shoulders, so it's a tank, but it's not, you know, like a little skimpy thing that you wouldn't actually wear out anywhere. I'm having to replace this because we got a bit of a moth infestation that I then had to deal with and many of my old clothes got mothholes in them. It's terrible. I hate it mostl the worst because they go for the good stuff, right. They go for linen, wool, natural fibers. They don't care about your polyester cheap shirt. They're not into that. They're going for the real, the steak dinner as it were, when they're they're eating. So been catching a lot of moths and then replacing some articles of clothing that I really liked and that I cannot wear out in public anymore. But dislike of the week would be moths like of the week, Nick and Zoe, all right, this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking quiet, quitting, fall fun, batching little tasks. I don't we don't have a phrase for that. But we will be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds. Podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.