A Tragedy in Texas | The Mistakes Series

00:00:15
Speaker 1: Bushkin.

00:00:20
Speaker 2: Many years ago, I was on the board of a think tank called the RAND Corporation out in Los Angeles. It was one of the coolest things I've ever done. RAND does all kinds of work on healthcare and energy in the environment, and most of all they consult with the Air Force, which meant from time to time various Air Force dignitaries would come and brief us. And they were two I've never forgotten. The first was a four star.

00:00:46
Speaker 1: General named David Goldfein.

00:00:48
Speaker 2: From twenty sixteen to twenty twenty, he was Chief of Staff, the highest military post in the Air Force. Here's a Dave goldfiend story that sums him up. I was once in an elevator with him at some conference and we were all locked in conversation with the conference host, and there was a man in the corner of the elevator who clearly worked for the hotel, older guy in a maintenance uniform who I'm ashamed to say we all treated like he was invisible, except for General Goldfin, who stopped the conversation, reached over, shook the man's hand. Hi, I'm Dave Goldfein. How is your day? In my experience, most powerful people do not notice the anonymous maintenance guy in the corner. Second memorable person who came to RAND when I was there the Secretary of the Air Force, Heather Wilson, the political appointee who runs the service along with the chief of Staff. I met Heather Wilson almost ten years ago now, and my friends will back me up on this. I have not stopped talking about her. In my perfect universe, Heather Wilson would run for president. I don't care which party, it doesn't matter. And if she did, not only would she win easily, but she would restore everything about that office that has been damaged over the past generation. And we decided to look at some consequential mistakes people have made for this mini series. I remembered something that happened back when Wilson and Goldfein were running the Air Force, a tragedy that unfolded in Texas, and a story about the mistake at the center of it, or more accurately, a story about how to respond to a mistake, and I wanted to share it with you. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is my conversation with doctor Heather Wilson and General Dave Goldfinfore.

00:02:50
Speaker 1: We go on.

00:02:51
Speaker 2: I remember you were in you were in the same Air Force Academy class.

00:02:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, we started at the Air Force Academy on the same day. I'm in the class of nineteen eighty two, and we didn't know each other really well as cadets in our careers, cross paths several times after graduating from the academy, but we came back together at the end of our our federal careers as Service Secretary and in chief. So in some ways our values were formed at the same institution at the same time.

00:03:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, now I will I will add that one of us graduated in four years, became a Rhodes scholar, congresswoman, started her own company, became university president and secretary, and one of us didn't.

00:03:36
Speaker 1: You were how datas did something useful?

00:03:40
Speaker 4: Dave?

00:03:41
Speaker 2: How far down in the graduating class were you, Dave? I've forgotten.

00:03:45
Speaker 4: Well, I will tell you that I was part of the group that made the top half possible.

00:03:51
Speaker 2: But you said something just then. I keep calling you, Dave. I should call you General Golfing.

00:03:57
Speaker 4: No, please call me Dave.

00:03:58
Speaker 2: Okay, So I just want to why do you guys just I don't know which one of you wants to start? Tell me how this all, When, when this began, how it began, how you found out about it, go from there.

00:04:09
Speaker 3: It was one of the worst days is still probably the worst day in my professional life. So it was a Sunday in November twenty seventeen. I was in the upstairs of my row house in Virginia. I got a call from the Inspector General and he said, I don't know if you're watching TV, but there's been something terrible that's happened in Sutherland Springs.

00:04:33
Speaker 1: Texas overnight.

00:04:34
Speaker 5: The quiet town of Sutherland Springs, Texas trying to come to grips with the nation's latest horrific mass shooting. More than two dozen people were killed during Sunday services at the small Baptist church, the victims ranging in age from five to seventy two years old. We also learned a short time ago that between twelve and fourteen of the dead are children.

00:04:59
Speaker 3: And I of course immediately went on and found out what was going on. Someone walked into a church in Sutherland Springs, Texas and open fire and killed when he was twenty six people. In the end, it was just awful.

00:05:16
Speaker 5: We are told now that the parents of the shooter's ex wife worshiped here. They were not at church yesterday.

00:05:24
Speaker 3: The Inspector General General Samsayid said, we're not sure, but we think he was an airman and even more than that, he may have been dishonorably discharged for a violent offense while on active duty. And we might have failed to inform the FBI, which would have if there was a way to put somebody on a list so they can't buy a weapon.

00:05:52
Speaker 1: And so Dave.

00:05:53
Speaker 3: And I talked that Sunday afternoon. We agreed we would meet at nine o'clock in the morning in our conference room and find out the facts and then and take it from there. But it was awful. It was just awful.

00:06:08
Speaker 4: Yeah. So you know, as it all came together, most important thing for us was to sort of get as many facts as we could that we when we gathered the people on Monday, to get everybody together.

00:06:22
Speaker 3: And it was so when we got together at nine o'clock in the morning, the Inspector General General say confirmed that yes he was an airman, Yes he had been convicted of a violent offense while on active duty, and that the service had failed to inform the FBI and put him on the list so he couldn't buy a weapon. And then you think it you know, you think at that point it can't get worse, but it did because the next thing we found out in that meeting was that the Defense Department Inspector General had done a review three years earlier of whether all of the services were appropriately notifying the FBI and putting people on them you know, can't by a weapon list, and said there were problems. So we had been told that the system didn't work. There was an audit finding, and we didn't fix it. So it was not a good day.

00:07:27
Speaker 2: So you have we have a case of somebody who is dishonorably discharged for a violent offense, and what's the internal mechanism in which the way that case is dealt with within the Air Force.

00:07:41
Speaker 3: When systems screw up, when when things fail, it's usually not because of somebody intended to make a mistake. Is because you know, the person who did that job moved on, or nobody wrote down the procedures, or people weren't adequately trained, and the way it was supposed to work in the service is that a felony offenses. Unlike minor offenses, felony offenses are handled by the Office of Special Investigations and a military prosecutor. Once there is a conviction, it should have been reported on a system by that Office of Special Investigations to the FBI and then it is closed out and you know, put on file. That didn't happen. And so it was a combination of systems and processes and training and uh, and it wasn't done right. And we were told that in advance when the d D Inspector General did an audit of all of the all of the services, and in fact that the Air Force had been doing it, doing better on it than the other services. But that didn't matter. We still knew we had a problem and we'd fail to fix it.

00:08:59
Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more of my conversation with General Goldfein and doctor Wilson. After you get that call, doctor Wilson, who do you call? Who's your first call?

00:09:24
Speaker 1: Is it Dave?

00:09:25
Speaker 3: My first call usually was to Dave. Now we also talked to the General Counsel and so forth. It was actually out of town, as I remember on that day, but one of the things, and this is one of the things about our relationship is service secretary in chief. The chief has an obligation to give his best military advice to the civilians appointed to run the department. As a secretary, there's nothing that says that you have an obligation to ask for it. But I generally did a much better job when I asked for it, because Dave Goldfeen may be a much better secretary.

00:10:00
Speaker 2: You said you guys were shaped by the same values, and this is a really important part, and I want you to talk a little bit before we go on.

00:10:08
Speaker 1: I want you to talk about it. What do you mean by that?

00:10:11
Speaker 4: So each service has a set of core values that are infused into every member of the institution, normally during basic training and then reinforced throughout their time in service. And so you could go to each service and find those core values. For us, it's integrity, service, and excellence. And so you know, integrity first is how we're taught to approach all things. So you know, in terms of how we approach this, it started off with ownership because we needed to ensure that we were true to the values of the institution and that we were representing the institution correctly as its leaders, and so integrity first, service before self, meaning that we you know, we look at this opportunity to lead as a gift that's offered by those who were privileged to serve, and each day we asked the question, are we worthy of that trust and competence not only of the airman that we were privileged to lead, but also the American people that entrusted us with their sons and daughters. And so those core values drive, you know, how we choose to handle things throughout our careers.

00:11:24
Speaker 3: I would say on the integrity first part. Once on that Monday morning, we knew the truth. We knew that he had been an airman, We knew that he had been convicted of a violent crime, and we knew that we should have reported at to the FBI, and we didn't. Those were facts we knew by Monday morning. And as I said, our general counsel was out of town, but there was a more junior lawyer around the table there and everybody was just man was just a somber meeting. But the lawyer when we kind of went around the table and said, all right, what do you think we should do next? On this one? It was very often that Dave and I came from things from a slightly different perspectives. You know, we we'd see different things, and I think we made better decisions because ste sharpened steel. We'd engage a lot with each other, but in this one, there was no daylight between us. From the very beginning, we knew the truth and we thought we needed to just say it, and so we made a decision at that meeting that we would release a statement by late that morning. We gave them a deadline of eleven. I think it took us till one. It always takes a little longer, but to say, to say what we knew, and we also thought that that would allow our institution to focus on fixing the problem rather than denying it or delaying things, or trying to duck accountability. And David and I also did a press conference or press availability with the Pentagon media the following morning, which was you know, that wasn't fun. But some ways, when we just said these are the facts as we know them, and this is what we're doing to fix the problem, what could they ask? You know, we weren't going to deny things. It was really unpleasant, but it was the truth, and I think Dave and I were both committed to just telling the truth. Well, good afternoon, Paps open up with a couple of remarks. The offenses for which the shooter in Texas was court martialed should have been reported, and that's why we launched a full scale review of this case and all others like it. Since Sunday night, the Air Force Inspector General has talked to about one hundred people involved in this case. We are looking at all of our databases and if we have problems that we find, we'll fix them.

00:13:53
Speaker 2: David, you can you can you give us your memory of that press conference?

00:13:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, you know, it's uh. I think we both expected to get, you know, really tough questions and we were prepared, you know, to own up. But it was, like Heather said, right once we opened up with hey, we own this. You know, we we the United States Air Force goofed this up, and we as the leaders, represent the institution that guped this up. And so we take ownership and our focus is now on ensure that we understand all the facts and we are going to fix this to ensure that it can never happen again. Once we started off with that statement, you really could have sort of felt the air go out of the room. And then the questions at that point were just more about detail, and I don't remember getting any really pointed, you know, attacks or questions. It was more okay, well tell us what you know about this, and how are you going to handle that? And so I think that, you know, my recollection of it was it accomplished what we were hoping it would accomplish, which was taking ownership.

00:15:09
Speaker 3: One of the things that somebody around that table on Monday morning said was, well, you know, you and the Chief weren't the leaders of the Air Force at the time this prosecution happened and they failed to report. And both Dave and I had the same reaction was that doesn't matter. We represent the institution. And Dave couldn't take the four stars off of his shoulders anymore than I could take the Airmen symbol off of my lapel. When you are the leader, you own the institution and you represent the institution, and you have to take ownership for the institution and lead it forward. And so the fact that it didn't happen on our watch, that's no excuse. We're not going to make an excuse. We're not going to say it was somebody else's problem.

00:16:02
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. What happens next.

00:16:19
Speaker 2: You have this press conference, You've you've told the world we're looking into We're going to go over every single case, make sure we've done the right thing, but we still have the aftermath.

00:16:31
Speaker 3: In Texas, this was a this was a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, and then some of the victims were the family of an airman who was deployed overseas, and Dave took the lead on that part, and I'll let him tell that part.

00:16:49
Speaker 4: So we reached out to the community and because there was a series of funerals they were holding, and reached out to the mayor of San Antonio, Ron Nuremberg at the time, and asked if it would be appropriate and it would be acceptable for me to travel to the San Antonio and attend the funeral in uniform representing the service, knowing that we were, you know, we were responsible for everything we've been talking about. Because I wanted to make sure that we weren't contributing to any increased pain by me being there, and I offered to also come into the entire if that's what they preferred, and they said, no, we'd appreciate if you would be here in uniform. So I met with the mayor first and we talked about, all right, how do we ensure that this is not just you know, once and done, that we have a long term commitment to this community. As the community works to recover from this tragedy, how do we ensure the Air Force is continually plugged in for the long term. So that was what the agenda working out with the mayor.

00:17:59
Speaker 2: Tell me more about going to that funeral, you're how did you feel on the flight down?

00:18:06
Speaker 4: Well, it was I knew that we had airman that was deployed and several members of his family. This is a young airman. Several men member of his families were killed and we were going to be several, yes, members of his extended family because a member again. Sutherland Springs is a bedroom community for Randolph Air Force Base, which is one of our largest Air Force training bases. So the number of people that come through Randolph, that's probably one of the most traveled bases. So when you talk to airman right and ask them of their common experiences, many of them will share a period of time when they went through Randolph Air Force Base or Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. So San Antonio is known as Military City, USA. Is one of the the monikers that it's used because there's so much military. You can't go to the airport in San Antonio without seeing a large number of young airmen who are who are arriving for basic training or leaving, and so you know, on the way down, I'm traveling in uniform to Military City, USA, and I'm going to meet with this airman. And having had the unfortunate opportunity to meet with a lot of airman and families over the course of my career, especially in the two years I was the Air Component Commander for Central Command where we lost a number of soldier, sailors, airman Marines while I was there. I'd had experience with handling the tragedy of death and talking with the families, and so I had a good sense of what I was stepping into. I'll never forget, you know, going to the funeral and I met with the pastor of the church, Frank Pomeroy, and it continually remains perhaps one of the most profound spiritual moments that I had as chief. When you know, Pastor Pomeroy stood up and started off by asking us if we would pray for the shooter and his family, and he did so while his fourteen year old daughter was in a casket because she they had lost her in the shooting. I don't know if there's a better example of spiritual courage, right we forgive those who trespass against us. I don't know that we're going to find a better example of that. And so being there for that airman, being there for those families was, you know, both profound and also I think every time there's a setback or a failure in an institution, it's an opportunity for the leaders to teach the next generation how to handle failure because we all get knocked down. All institutions have failures. The question is not whether you're going to fail. The question is how do you handle it when you do fail? Do you take ownership? Do you step up? Do you get back up? And do you teach the next generation of leaders how to handle failures so that they can be more prepared when it comes to them, because it's going to come to them. My concern on this particular one was would there be a hostile reaction by the community to my being there, because it's a hostile reaction not to me, but a hostile reaction to Ni States Air Force. And there was none of that. It was a welcoming opening. Sutherland Springs is an incredible community. And again I go back to Pastor of Frank Pomeroy, who is just an incredible and incredible spiritual leader. I think he set the tone for all of us when he asked us to pray for the shooter.

00:22:07
Speaker 1: And there was there wasn't a hostile reaction because you showed up.

00:22:14
Speaker 4: I don't know how much of it was, because I think it was more we were all there for the same purpose, right. I was not there to do anything other than I mean, I didn't sit in I didn't sit in the front road. They tried to, you know, move me up to the front row, and I said, no, I'm I'm part of this community today, and so I want to sit with the community, and I'd like to sit in an area that is, you know, with the families that are represented here. And and so this was not a you know, we made a point. I made a point of my team. I said, uh, do not please make this a big protocol event for the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. This is Dave Goldfing coming here to show my respect, my love for these families, and to represent the institution that let them down.

00:23:13
Speaker 1: M hm hm.

00:23:15
Speaker 3: So I don't think I could have done that. First of all, I think Dave was Now there's a when people think about the American Air Force, they don't think about somebody in civilian clothes the secretary. They think about our uniform military And so I think Dave was the right one to represent us there, and he and I talk about this. I also think I'm not sure I could have done what he did. I mean, it was it was just pretty amazing as.

00:23:42
Speaker 1: A leader to do that.

00:23:45
Speaker 3: But I don't mean with the humility that he did it, because he's that way. But just the whole thing's just so incredibly heartbreaking.

00:23:55
Speaker 1: M One last question. It's such an extraordinary story.

00:24:01
Speaker 2: Can you reflect on what this ought to teach us, what this taught you, and what this ought to teach us about what a leader is.

00:24:12
Speaker 3: You know, there's a variety of lessons I think woven into this. I actually had to go up to Capitol Hill and testify in front of the Senate several months after this happened, and anybody who testifies in front of the Senate needs to be prepared, to be grilled, to get really hard questions. And I've had harder questions on more benign topics than I did on that day. And I think part of it was because I did in my opening statement pretty much what Dave and I had done the day after it happened, which was to own it and to tell the Senate what we were doing to fix it. And I, of course had met individually with the Senators, mostly the Senators and House members most directly affected. I remember we had a wonderful Director of Legislative Affairs, General Steve Bash, he called him Bash. He was a B two pilot, very experienced in legislative affairs and an aviation and he was sitting behind me in his very stoic way as he did as a two star, and helped prepare me. He had been there Monday morning, sitting through the meetings. He had gone with me to the Hill for all of the one on ones. He had been involved in all of this, and he was he was a very straight guy, very professional guy. And when we walked out of that hearing, he said, you know, Madam's secretary, I learned something today that's pretty strong statement coming from a two star with all of his experience. I said, well, what's that bash? He said, The result of today's hearing wasn't decided today. It happened in the twenty four hours after the incident, when you and the chief took ownership. And by taking ownership, by owning failure, we not only allowed the institution to focus on fixing the problem and focusing on the future rather than on kind of trying to mess around and deny the past. But it also you know, sometimes when institutions screw up, they get sued or their just claims or whatever. And yes, the government did get sued. The Air Force got sued by the families of the victims. But for it as the institution, the families also were. If we had denied responsibility, the relationship between the communities and the service would have been completely different. And because it would have been you know, range linked difference with lawyers talking to lawyers, and it would not have allowed them to heal either. And so I think it mattered to the institution to be able to say, okay, when things get screwed up, the best thing to do is to own it and fix it even when it really hurts. And it's also the best for the people who have been impacted by the failure.

00:27:17
Speaker 4: I'll share with you that I've come to believe over the years that the journey to becoming an inspirational servant leader is a journey that actually never ends. I'm still not the servant leader I want to be, but I'm working on it. And I think if we ever get to a point where we plant the flag as leaders and believe we've figured it all out and got it all maybe that's a pretty good indication of it's time to retire, because we stop learning, we stopped listening, we stop growing as leaders. And so, you know, leadership as a servant leader is a gift, and it's a gift that's offered by those you're privileged to lead, and you've got to earn and re earn that gift every single day. And you earn trust and confidence as a leader over weeks, months, and years, but it can be lost in a single moment of indiscretion or bad decision making or bad behavior. And so for us, there was an opportunity that was presented for us to teach that next generation of leaders what servant leadership looks like. And so perhaps part of the you know, the positive outcome of this incredibly terrible tragedy for these families in this community is there's a there's a story here that can help the next generation when they face something similar and how to step up as leaders and take ownership.

00:28:48
Speaker 2: I'm going to change what I said at the beginning. I don't just want Heather Wilson to run for president. I want the two of them on the ticket. Doesn't matter which party, doesn't matter which order. Wilson and Golfing are Goldfing and Wilson. Wilson and Golfing in twenty twenty eight to remind us.

00:29:05
Speaker 1: What real leadership looks like.

00:29:08
Speaker 2: If you want to know more about the two of them, they wrote a wonderful book together, Get Back Up Lessons in Servant Leadership. Links to the book are in our show notes. Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird, Lawrence Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadafh Haffrey. Our editor is Karen Schakerji, fact checking by Angelie Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence Owen Miller and Sarah Bugeer. Original music by Luis Guerra, Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorsky. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, coming next week on our Mistakes series.

00:29:48
Speaker 1: He's like, YO, I need you to make a record, and I said what he said, make a record with j Low and put jaw on it and make it a duet