A Nightmare, A Butterfly, & the Disbanding That Reveals Nibbāna | Willa Thāniya & Eliza Day

[music]
Welcome to a interview with Clear
Mountain and our good friends Will Tania
and Elizabeth Day. So good to have you
both with us.
>> Yeah, we're very pleased to be here with
you both. Yeah, thank you.
>> So brief introduction. Both Willatana
Reed and Elizabeth Day were trained in
the monastic lineage of the Thai Forest
tradition in which teachers offer dharma
reflections in response to the present
moment, the here and now Dharma. They
speak informed by the graduated
teachings of the Buddha drawing on
primary texts relevant to the unfolding
inquiry of Dharma. They live in Kihi
Kihi where they have established a
practice community. They teach locally
in Aaroa, New Zealand and
internationally primary in primarily in
the Pacific Northwest near us.
Elizabeth works as a professor of
psychotherapy and also offers individual
therapy and dharma guidance. Willa is
currently in the process of retiring
allowing her to further orient orientate
to providing dharma guidance. They are
intending to spend next year offline in
meditation retreat. Appreciating that
time is short, they will be cultivating
what is most precious, but we managed to
get them before that. So, uh Willa
Eliza, it's so good to have you on. Um,
we first encountered you in person at
Aloka Vihara several years ago and since
then have just um maintained these warm
connections and then realized we hadn't
interviewed you yet and thought that was
just absurd and we're so glad to finally
be able to have you meet our community
and our community to meet you.
>> So lovely to be with our venerable
brothers and and have a conversation
after such a long time.
>> Yeah. and to really see the flourishing
of your community and what you're
offering.
>> So, yeah, just it's such a joy.
>> Maybe to begin with, um, instead of a
full-on biography, um, I wondered if you
two might share some key moments of
inspiration and faith in your life that
guided you to on your dharmic path. So a
few of those landmarks that kind of
stand out um in you know highlight
maybe beginning with well whichever one
of you would like to begin.
Well, maybe I can begin. Um,
yeah, it's an interesting question. I
think if I if you I stop and think about
it, you know, my life now feels long,
but I if I really recognize where my
impulse to dharma comes from, it comes
from when I was really little. Um, and I
lived with a Buddha ruper. And amongst
all the kind of chaos and loss of my
childhood, there was something about the
Buddha's ongoing
smiling, this ruper smiled that um was
of great solace to me. And I did a you
know at that age like many of us I was
doing meditation. [clears throat] we
seem to when we're little and I had real
understandings both of the qualities of
the Buddha in terms of meta and also
that present moment pulling away of
everything which brought a kind of sense
of fearlessness.
So I guess the impulse for the Buddha
donal was there for as long as I can
remember. But I did have a time in my
20ies where you know I had there was no
Buddha Dharma around at all as far as I
could find it. But there was um Hindu
teachings and my sisters and I had
cultivated in terms of different Hindu
practice pathandanda
and others and I was doing a lot of
meditation like owls and really doing
the practices that bring the mind in
union with Brahma you see all the
formless chanas and it was just so
incredibly painful to have these very
elevated qualities of mind and then the
no way of making sense of my world and I
was living in Paliston North Palmy at
the time and I was standing on a street
doing something and I saw a monk
actually it was ugl
get into a car
and there's just this huge um feeling
that overwhelmed me that there was a
path out of suffering.
So from then I was just I took myself to
the monastery. I took myself to Thailand
where child is still alive. It was just
um there was no doubt about what I had
to do where I needed to be.
So
maybe that's enough. I mean as you know
as we go along things just keep
reinforcing that confidence
in the past but I guess those were two
kind of seinal things in the sense of
having felt lost and suddenly
being found.
>> That's perfect. Yeah. Thank you Will and
Eliza. Are there any moments in your
upbringing that really come to mind
right now? There are there are some key
[clears throat] moments in childhood
that that come to mind because my very
first fully formed memory is is in a
Buddhist temple in Malaysia. Um, we were
living in Malaysia
[clears throat] and taken to a temple
and I remember being drawn to this
figure, this upright figure who was
obviously in meditation and I I stood in
front of her and looked up at her face
and she must have felt me right in her
face and and opened her eyes and I just
felt this wash through my whole being of
of meta, I guess. Um, it was something
that kind of nearly blew me away and um
something I've never forgotten. I
certainly knew what it was like to feel
loved in my family. This had a different
quality to it that was um that stayed
with me as as something of of
importance.
And then and recently I I've turned 60
and I was sharing with my family that uh
when I was about to hit another zero age
10, you know, people made a lot of back
then like, oh double figures, you're
coming to double figs. And I remember
thinking, what does that mean? What's
double figures? Why is everyone making
fuss? What do I have to do? You know,
[laughter]
what is this turning 10 all about? And I
remember contemplating what's changing,
you know? And there was the sense of the
yeah, the body. I'm I'm growing up.
Body's not like it was when I was six or
four or two or one or not to speak of
zero or before then. And you know, the
mind's changing. I I could see that. But
then there was this sense of recognition
of this intimacy, this sense of me or I
am or subjectivity. And I remember
thinking that kind of feels more like a
continuity. That feels a bit more like
something that doesn't really age.
What's what's that about? And starting
to get a a sense of there's something
really important here to
investigate and come to understand. So
those were kind of key points in
childhood. There were other ones.
children are quite connected, aren't
they? And so other other moments, but um
and then in my learning about death when
my grandfather died and just a sense of
lying down and reflecting on that and
the body just heart pumping different
fluxes and flows in the body, but re
recognizing this isn't me. This is just
going its own way, you know, and just
these sort of moments in existential
moments that got me. I was quite a
contemplative young thing and um
unfortunately I didn't have a Buddhist
context in which to make sense of some
of some of these inquiries but um I
started to notice my breath all the time
present and I complaining to my mother I
breath gets in the way of my thinking
what's that all about and she ended up
taking me to her GP who was a Tibetan
Buddhist practitioner who taught me some
meditation um when I was young. So there
were there were moments like these, but
there was always a sense of um the
absurdity
of of everyday life. And uh and probably
lastly, a really key point for me was
around the age that children are being
really strongly gendered. I remember
thinking this is absurd. There's nothing
in this. There's no substance to this. I
don't understand what people are going
on about. Are you a boy or a girl? I
used to be asked. It's like um neither.
You know, not sure. what does that mean?
And anyway, that led me into an inquiry
when I went through my university years
into um non-selfconsciousness and
non-self. And so I did some I started my
doctoral research, my PhD looking at at
this question through a literary lens.
Actually, I won't bore you with the
reasons and details of why. Um and then
through that inquiry, I started to
practice meditation. And when I
when I read the sutas and some of the
core Buddhist teachings, it it just came
with such clarity and sort of
obviousness in a way that it it set a
lot of those other inquiries to rest. I
I still finished the PhD under
sufference, but I' I'd moved into a
different frame for inquiry that I've
I've stayed with ever since.
>> Could each of you maybe take us on
through the next steps? you talking
about this initial just spontaneous
natural uh affinity with something
divine or something more meaningful as a
child and then maybe not having so much
context for it and then Tanya seeing
this monastic and then uh Eliza with um
yeah just moving in the direction of
meditation each of you did eventually uh
go into ordination at in the Ajan Cha
tradition could you speak about that
that next step how this initial energy
got channeled. Maybe starting with Eliza
if you'd be willing.
>> Oh, sure. Um
really what comes to mind is a
pilgrimage to India
actually. Uh so I was I was practicing
at the um Buddhist Society of Victoria
uh maybe for about seven years at that
point, five to seven years. And um there
were some really wonderful teachers
there for me at that through those
years. And one of them Rakita Terra was
um was in the forest hermitage in Candy
um or had come out to spend some time in
Australia and um he invited a group of
us to go on a pilgrimage and I remember
thinking I was in my 20s that's a bit
religious that's a bit edgy I'm not but
really having a longing a longing to go
and um and there were some obstacles I
just started a job and I didn't have the
cash for tickets up front and then
[clears throat]
I received that week I received a an
email, a mail in the post back then of a
credit card from my bank. That was
[laughter]
in the days when they were just trying
to build up customer just sending out
credit cards. So I thought, well,
that'll be handy for the tickets.
[laughter]
And then uh then I went to my workplace
and said, I know I've just been here for
four or five weeks and um you know,
we're understaffed and all of that, but
I'm actually going on a pilgrimage to
India for 5 weeks.
Is that okay? I am going and and the
manager said okay see you when you get
back. So um
no real obstacles and had five weeks
with a group four in India one in in Sri
Lanka and uh you know we were we were
living on the eight precepts. So living
as a a small traveling SA with this uh
monk um whose teachings I found really
very transformative and um something
shifted and coming back to Melbourne, a
city that I love and where I where I am
at the moment for a few months um it
just felt very landscaped and um kind of
disconnected from the world and I' I'd
been in India where life is really lived
in the raw but touched the earth at
those sacred places and um and that
really that really clinched it. Um I had
a partner at the time and uh we felt
similarly we'd been practicing together
for years, 7 years or so and we decided
actually
wanting to do this full-time, wanting to
live this life in a full-time way. So um
made the moves towards I think a couple
of years later got our lives in order
and went went across to um Amraati
in in England and uh I was there for
about six years all up Amirati test.
Yeah.
would um will you like to uh continue
and and say your trajectory and then
both of you can also interested in
seeing how you kind of came to where you
are at the moment as well from there.
>> Yeah. So there I've had this really
still moves me this um site you know one
of the four signs really and it was just
so powerful. So then it was there's no
question I thought well who is this
where are they from kind of and found
out and then realized there was a
monastery about a couple of hours south
just really starting to get established
and so I spent time there but it was
really funny because the first night I
of first morning I was heading down I
got a phone call about 6:00 in the
morning from my mother and she said,
"I've had this terrible nightmare. You
have to tell me it's not true. I've had
this terrible nightmare. You're a
Buddhist."
[laughter]
But it set the scene for other events in
my life. But but it was just so funny
and you realized, "Yeah, these energies
are really powerful. Mind is really
powerful."
And so I went down um practiced there.
Um it was a monk's monastery. Ajan vi
was really wonderful. Even Ajan Karuna
was there at the time. Um but it was
very clear they did not feel they could
ordain women.
So Arjent V said to me, "You'll have to
go somewhere else.
if if you come back after 10 years,
we'll make a place for you. So I
thought, wow, okay. So naturally, my
next movement was to Thailand. Locha was
still alive. Um
so that was a really powerful draw
because teachings like that most of the
teaching wasn't of course present yet
but Bodana was available
and his directness and the quality
really of the forest traditions
teachings really just spoke to my own um
affinity with the natural world and a
kind of practical sensible kind of way
of approaching DMA
and so so I went to Thailand was there
anat
around in that area for 6 months. So
then looking for
um the different teachers, they said,
"Well, you have to go to England,"
which was one of the places I promised
myself I'd never have to go.
[laughter and snorts]
It
ao turned up and I requested permission
to go to England to practice there and
he he granted permission. Later I
realized he wasn't in a position to do
such a thing but
it's actually a community thing but he
said yes please come.
So then I I'd already um committed to go
on pilgrimage to India for a number of
months. So I did that was very profound.
Um yeah, I'm glad I didn't just go to
the monastery but went did my Indian
pilgrimage,
sat under the Baldi tree for days and
weeks
and then really went back to New
Zealand, got my things in order,
tried to get a visa to go to England,
eventually came through and then went
was in Amarati
for the first year or So then down at
Chitter then took ordination. Actually
most of my time about 18 years was at
Chittas monastery
which a forest monastery. So I felt very
at home home in the mud.
[laughter]
It was a real mark of the kind of
English lanes and English forests and
>> yeah very very precious time.
And um what drew you both um you know to
where you are now and and how has how
have you found the ways to integrate
those Dharmic principles um into into a
life as uh lay teachers as well and
practitioners in in a different context.
>> Maybe I just blow on the the leaving the
monastery. Yeah. is really I guess um
certainly for me know it's saying
fertilizer it's kind of heartbreaking.
So uh we had to switch cameras just in
case people are wondering why we look
completely different now. Um but uh
Eliza and Willa um maybe to just
continue um with the the theme that you
touched on when you move through those
times of heartbreak whether it's from
you know I think many people have had
moments in their path where they've uh
felt lost or or lost faith in a
community or a teacher or a teaching
even. Um, how how have you sustained
yourself through those dark times and
what advice would you give to others
moving through them?
>> Well, maybe
Liza will have her own answer to that,
but for me it's a case of in a way
you've got to get your heart arms
around, you know, the way your arms
around your heart. How do you how do you
hold that in a way and come into
presence and compassion with it
rather than into that place of oh this
is wrong it shouldn't be happening
actually this is the way things are
and be able to actually metabolize and
understand the conditionality of what's
happening
rather than um blaming it outward
blaming
just come into right relationship and
you know that I think we have to be
cultivating day in day out with small
things, big things so that the heart
actually has the strength to just remain
present even with the things that most
devastating
and I've found I don't things don't have
the They're
not as raw as they once were in my early
life. You know, when I was younger, much
more there was much more emotional
strength to what happened. But it at
that time I really found it chanting
and devotional practices life saving
bowing um chanting and I would I used to
have things I chanted like recollections
of epic violence and they were like
medicine
but even though there was this
turbulence it's not the it's not the
only thing Present with this moment. No
there is awareness nibana is present in
every moment. So to keep
this capacity not to be drowning in
conditions but always maintain a
reference to the unconditioned seems to
be critical.
>> Thank you so much Eliza.
I do have
>> uh yeah the heart heartbreak of existing
in this world really it's full of
heartbreaks isn't it and you know we
will spoke about the heartbreak of
leaving the monastery I equally felt
just devastated so I left despite
wanting to give my life to that form and
I realized in the leaving um I'd given
my life to the Buddha Dharma Sana and
that that took different shape and
different form So um I think dealing
with heartbreak is is personal you know
for each of us but when I think about um
my practice life I think there are so
many facets to practice um there's the
there's the deep um intimacy of practice
there's the there's the social element
of practice um psychological
physical environmental and these are all
supports
you know the Buddha touched the earth at
that powerful moment of of
[clears throat] doubt
you know it's presented as mara an
external force um saying what right do
you have prove that you have a right to
um to awaken
um but that self that doubt and that
touching the earth gesture I found
profoundly resonating and supportive for
the embodiment of of practice and um
you know when we live in some kind of
harmony with the the cycles of the
seasons and the the cycles of life
around us then then the environment
offers supports as well um people in our
lives. So there's there's a sense for me
that we need to find whatever medicine
gets us through um painful loss.
But in the case of leaving the
monastery, there are different losses,
but in the case of leaving the
monastery, it was a deep reinforcing of
of where the practice really sits. And
so it was a helpful in the end, it's a
helpful um process as well. And I think
I think for many people um when you talk
about the kind of loss of um trust or
faith in a teacher or teaching that's
its own particular kind of pain
and you know again it can be once one
has the supports one one needs at the
human level to move through the pain of
that
there's the possibility to really come
more fully into um owning is not really
the truest word but owning owning one's
practice that sense of continuing to
deepen because this is a path inward if
we want to use that metaphor and and
outward supports if we continue with the
metaphor of in and out um are a part of
that but as the Buddha said in his last
breath you know each one of us we we may
do it for the benefit of all beings the
benefit of ourselves the benefit of both
but we have to do the work each of us
don't we um and so there are stages es
in practice there can be for people as
we know um where there's some projection
outwards to a great teacher or whatever
it might be great person someone we look
to look up to um all of that has to go
you know all of it goes at some point
and sometimes it goes before we feel
ready
goes for different reasons
but um you know we can I think there
grat Gratitude is a very powerful
support as well. We can be grateful for
the the the support we've received. It's
not to be taken for granted and it's not
there for everybody, you know. So,
there's the preciousness of the
opportunities we've had mourning the
losses and and and then here's the path
again. It hasn't gone anywhere, you
know, the dharma here and now apparent
outside of time. So remembering coming
back to remembering these things in and
amongst all the other supports that we
might might need as as quivering humans
on this planet that's spinning in space.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. Thank you both for being um so
honest and upfront forthcoming um about
that pain and um Willa in there's a book
called Awakening Presence that I think
came out in 2005 or 2006 with different
um siladara um from the Ajancha
community in in England and you have an
essay in there I think called is here
colon mara sparklers and awakening or or
the present moment And um it's a really
fun uh article which was probably a talk
and in there you talk about SA you talk
about SA as the I think it's the uh
movement to actualize the quality of
awakening. Could you could you say more
about that? It's it's very poetic and
very beautiful and it rings true, but
I'd love it if you could could talk more
about that movement to actualize.
Yeah, it's it's
>> it's like what do we mean when we take
refuge in the Buddha Dharma Sa? Yeah. So
we can think of them as the historical
Buddha. We can think of the teachings
which are really beautiful that we are
inheritors of. We can think of the SA as
those practicing or the Arya SA those
who have had realization. There are
different ways of considering that and
all of them are helpful. But to me the
most critical thing is that quality of
the Buddha knowing the dharma. Yeah. The
sense of knowing the way things are and
and [clears throat] having that as
refuge. So the that in any moment
whatever is going on we can wake up to
what is here. And I would say that is
the gesture of SA. It's the lived
um the lived reality of that practice.
The embodied
moment by moment living
of the Buddha knowing the SA
knowing the dharma is really what SA is.
It's a it's a alive practice. So that it
it it's here. It's just not it doesn't
mean I have to be sitting with other
people or though that's really helpful
but to know every moment of waiting into
presence
has the three refugees present I find
really helpful. So I'll sit and and
[clears throat] you know there's a sense
of really feeling the lineage of
teachers and
um
Siri my sisters and brothers and
practice right back
the Buddha himself and feel like here we
are in this flow this flow of waking up
but it's flowing forward thought. Yeah.
>> But but in every moment the refues are
fully here.
>> So I guess that sense of not having them
as some abstracted external thing but as
a moment by moment lived reality.
I'm um just talking about SA and that
embodiment of these you know qualities
of knowing and the you know the awakened
mind in a human being I I feel there's a
very clear resonance and uh important
conversation adjacent to that just about
loving kindness and you even talked
about how trembling trembling human
beings are quivering human beings and as
you both know the word anuka uh which is
one word for sympathy and Buddhism means
to tremble alongside and you know meta
um recently it's just been a very
powerful recollection for me but um one
issue I've had with it in the past I
know others have is you find a meta
phrase that works for a time and then it
kind of stops working for a long time um
and you find things are dry again but it
it's such a powerful quality of heart
and uh we recently talking to teachers
who said Meta isn't a mental event. It's
you kind of tuning into something very
very profound. How what skillful means
would you give people for maintaining
that that doorway open to that depth of
heart when it seems to close so so
quickly for most of us?
>> You know those heart qualities are so
critical to practice, aren't they? um
you know the Buddha
saying that he moved from these
qualities in interaction with others.
This is this is how to live. Actually um
uh on our on our recent on the recent
pilgrimage to India um I I took with us
a chant meta karuna mud pekka and we
used that as a as a support for practice
for coming back to refuge as a way to
manage the the onslaught of of everyday
travel through um India such a large
population so much going on um and you
know people seem to find that a very
deep support um it's one of my main
practices um you know the cultivation of
the Brahma vha it's something that we
both practice and and teach quite a lot
so to your question I mean how do we how
do we maintain a heart open when like
the the that metaphor of the cow at the
crossroads you know skinless with flies
landing the kind of pain of embodied
sensitive humanity right the tendency
for the heart to those I I I don't think
of meta as an add-on. I don't think of
it as a series of phrases. I think of it
or I experience it as a a deep energetic
flow.
And so, um I have found it helpful in
the past when I was first learning the
practice or really coming back to what's
natural in the heart um that this notion
of kindling, you know. So, there can be
phrases if that's helpful. May all
beings be well, peaceful, happy. Um, may
this being be well, peaceful, happy.
There can be phrases, but it's there can
be images, but it's whatever um brings
us to heartfulness and allows that
quality to um reveal itself. And that
quality has an energy with it that can
flow through the body. It's an embodied
experience. And so the way I teach it,
the way I hear Willow teaching it,
though we have some variations is around
this um kindling this energetic quality
that's that's always present beneath the
waves.
Feeling [snorts] it, learning to
recognize it. For some it might feel
that it can change, but it might feel
like the coolest of breezes. It might
feel like a tingling or a um a sort of
seeping warmth. But re trusting and
recognizing how it shows up
and and keeping it in heart, keeping it
in mind, using the breath to amplify can
be very helpful and to disperse through
the body a bit like working with pa in
anapanasi practice with pity. So um
massaging it through the body until the
body's absolutely steeped in permeated
with this quality this energetic quality
and then it um radiates out like it has
no choice like like the fragrance of a
flower as it blooms. [clears throat]
It radiates out and then you know there
can be intention alongside that to um
direct it send it into you know ever
widening circles or whatever. however
works for you to to keep it growing and
keep it um bring it towards
boundlessness.
So if I had to think of it as an idea,
it wouldn't work cuz there's other ideas
competing. Ideas about how the politics
are in this country at the moment or how
whatever is and those ideas jostle it.
But meta isn't just another idea
adjacent to these ideas. And that can be
a risk I think when sometimes when
people grasp it as some concept now I've
got to be metaphorful as well as
everything else you know how do I become
that and identity gets in the way and
co-opts it. So it's it's coming back to
what's very natural and allowing having
trust and confidence getting tastes of
it and allowing it to grow and um and
permeate the body. So it becomes a lived
experience that's delicious and um and
inviting um us to return again and
again.
>> I I just added a little what if we
considered it more as being friendly
with everything that's here
>> that whatever is is whatever experience
is coming into our awareness
>> there's no
contention with it.
It's just this deep friendly
friendliness for everything that's
manifesting.
>> And and that's an embodied friendliness,
a felt experience.
>> That's right. To kind of
softness, a softening into everything
rather than an armoring or huging.
>> Could you each give us one of those fire
starter kindling recollections that's
worked a lot recently? I've been
thinking about all the little beings
around me and just the ones that no one
thinks about and that's really gotten me
every time. I've heard baby owls as a
good go-to. Do you each could you each
give us just one one kind of gem to take
away with us that kind of can open the
door for both of you or be the fire
starter if things are a bit soggy in
there?
[laughter]
>> It to be honest it tends to be just a an
invocation now meta and then there it
is. But um I did hear one of my first
teachers was saying he was from Burma
Uatika a brother monk of Utania and he
was saying I'm really surprised he was
so metaphorful and he was saying I'm
really surprised that some western
practitioners western oriented
practitioners have trouble loving
finding love in here or loving
themselves and and others. And he said
um I asked a woman um can you just
invoke love for you know yourself? No.
How about for a family member? No. How
about for No, no, no. And then how about
for little puppy? Okay. [laughter]
So, yeah. So, she she started to
practice with with um the you know the
innocence of little puppy that image for
her touch that loving part of of the
heart. So, it's it's anything anything
in our lives. I mean,
this is going to be really corny and
schmaltzy, but for me, it was my mother
when I first started practicing because
I love my mother. My mother's showered
with me with love all my life. And so
there's a kind of immediate feeling of
love. Um you know nothing's no
relationships aren't complicated but I
can re could very much and still can
very much tune into that love that was
shown to me by my mother. And then just
just that sort of sense of I used to
always pray for my family when I was a
young Catholic girl. Um pray for each of
them every night and send them light.
And so that sense of invoking family and
and light has been very helpful. I know
that won't be the case for um people
where family feels more complicated.
So it can be the Buddha, it can be
anything. Anything can trigger love.
Yeah.
It's
>> I mean after a long time it's just there
isn't it more natural way to meet the
world but if if I'm feeling a kind of
that quality of arati or a kind of
grainness then just to come into my own
trembling but the trembling of the world
then it just arises the
actually what it's like to be manifest
where you're in form that's going to
disintegrate and bring pain and every
other being shares that.
So I guess in that way my doorway may be
through compassion and to matter
>> and you know currently um in Australia
we've just um had a
a terrible um terrorist attack on a
Jewish community who's celebrating the
first night of Khan
um at a famous spot Bondai Beach and you
know just taking care of the chitter a
sense of the devast devastation, the
pain, the um the hatred that can bring
this about, all of that, the ignorance.
Um but then there's the people who
stepped forward to protect others. You
know, the woman who lay on a little
girl, her own child was taken off by her
husband to safety. She lies on a little
girl until little girl's family come.
The man who tackled one of the gunmen
and so on. So there are there are ways
to turn our attention to goodness um
that don't that doesn't deny all the
other that goes on but takes us back to
refuge.
>> Yeah. Thank you both. Um just also in
that essay um by uh Willa um in
awakening presence you have this line
which kind of is very much in line with
what you're saying now in terms of at
least in the framing of meta just
accepting you know what what is right
now being with what is but there's a
line in that that there is there are no
demons there are no demons and how how
do you hold that sentiment I mean it
seems like a very good device for
working with meta for opening up one's
heart but when you do as Eliza is
pointing to like you have you know
extreme anger and violence in the world
and even like in a in a Buddhist uh
conceiving of things you know in early
terra you do have this figure of mara
and you actually you know real demons uh
on one level and so how do you it does
this teaching that there are no demons
is that a skillful means with specific
ific boundaries or do you feel like
there is a a helpful
time or place in practice to actually
acknowledge that there are kind of
negative uh kind of harmful violent
forces that one should be be wary of or
is it just no demons all the time?
>> Well, there are
>> I think there are harmful forces here
but there are no demons. So the sense
that
everything arises due to conditions.
Yeah. So
things aren't
they're not fixed. They everything is in
movement. Everything's a verb. So that
kind people can concretize and harden
around these ideas rather than actually
coming into well what actually is
happening here? What where does this
come from? Because if we make demons,
we're in real trouble. Where if we see
the conditionality of things, we become
supremely committed to generating
skillful conditions.
Yeah. And rather than coming with anger
to hatred, we come with compassion.
We know
You know, hatred does not see through
hatred only through love. This is the
eternal law. So to see conditionality to
me is really the pathway. And then
something I becomes clearer and clearer
to me is this kind of coming into the
uju the embodied uprightness of the
heart and really not believing any
leaning out into ill will or grasping or
anything you know in a way stealing and
um making things out of things. So my
more now it sets it up to make anything
out of anything
and to keep the heart really upright
come out of that. A de the idea of a
demon is a grasping and it's an
unhelpful grasping
and to abandon that
upright
very helpful perspective and I feel feel
like both of you are very good both at
the uju and the mood. So the uprightness
and the the softness, you kind of both
embody that uh in [clears throat] at
least my own interactions with both of
you. And I'm curious this way that
you're speaking um Willa does kind of
just remind me just reading your
biography uh Eliza that you got a
doctorate in inter subjectivity and have
practiced gestalt psychotherapy and did
either one of those inform your your
practice? It sounded like when you were
giving your biography earlier um that
you got those before you were so much
into meditation, but maybe I missed
that. So, how how do those terms do they
play into your your understandings of
interubjectivity and gestalt or whole
picture awareness? Do those uh affect in
a positive way? Are there skillful means
that you've taken from those domains
into your meditative practice or
teaching?
Um the short answer to that would be
yes. Slightly longer answer is um I I
did actually complete my doctorate
before I'd done some counselor training
but before I um trained in Gestalt
psychotherapy. In fact, I can I trained
in that after I left the monastery as a
direct result of experiences in the
monastery
um with with a kind of um that you know
the the community was growing and
developing in its understanding of
psychological health and well-being. But
um I found it quite concerning that each
year we'd have um you know groups of lay
people coming in to support the winter
retreat and it wasn't uncommon for each
year someone had to have a a psychotic
break which is quite hard on the on the
brain. It's not something to encourage.
It can be seen as a spiritual
breakthrough as well. U but it's pretty
intense way to do that. Um and so and
there's something about coming into a
space that's got a lot of charge in it.
Um and and and some degree spiritual
purity developing in it and to come into
that um unready
you know we know that the challenges of
that the the importance of of ethics in
in in the practice um ethical life
living but mental health is also really
supportive. You know, I've I've often
wondered about sometimes the simple
phrases in the sutas like um I I'll I'll
broaden the gender, but you know, a a
person of a good family, you know, sits
at the root of a tree and establishes
mindful mindfulness before them. And I
I've often thought about that good
family and the translation of it. and
that it can seem um you know privileged
in some ways or who knows classist
clanist but there's something about if
we take it more broadly
someone who's got supports I don't mean
material support someone who's actually
ready to sit at that root of a tree and
do the inquiry and what helps us to be
ready and um relative mental health is a
great support and and having said that
you know lots of people come to the path
through overcoming or working through
anxieties, depressions and so on.
There's no stigma around any of that.
But um yes, I having been through living
in community and seeing some of the
challenges that that were there, I
thought it would be um a a useful way to
spend the latter part of my life while
um you know cultivating dharma myself to
um to support people to clear away what
gets in the way of dharma practice.
So in that sense I I have found some
some of the insights
um especially around into sububjectivity
and embodiment really supportive myself
and and for clients and I I do find I
only have a small psychotherrapeutic
practice at the moment because I'm a
full-time academic um and and I teach
yoga and meditation so there's not a lot
of space left in the days or weekends.
Um, but I've I've found that I'm not um
applying a Buddhist um intervention
deliberately with clients. I'm I'm open
to whoever comes through the door, but
almost inevitably as they go through
their process, they loosen up and open
up and start to inquire spiritually.
So, um I I do see it as a supportive
pathway. It's it's a pretty European
oriented practice, psychotherapy in
particular. And um I think that you know
we all come out of contexts and the
context for a lot of western trained
minds um has some loss in it around
community and has some alienation in it.
And so um I see these um these practices
as supports not for sharpening itself
but for supporting clarity and and and
that trembling that trembling quivering
allowing someone to come into their
their strength and sense of safety and
then all sorts of things open up.
we've uh touched on some of the kind of
darker more tender pieces of of or
threads of life and um and I I find it's
very refreshing this movement in
Buddhism where you're allowed to touch
the earth as you said and then something
rises quite and it becomes you know
there's plenty of sparkle and brightness
right there as well and certainly you
two embody that um so I wanted to we're
coming towards uh the end of our time
and haven't done nearly enough of it But
I didn't want to end without asking
about any dava stories or uh kind of
stories of extra serendipity which we
might be able to draw out of you two. Um
any sparkle for us?
>> Oh that's quite confronting. There's
plenty but it'sing how much to share
into into this context.
>> [laughter]
>> We we can also ask a different question
or edit this out, but uh we wanted to
put it out there just to see.
>> Well,
mostly I don't talk about that level of
stuff cuz there can be a lot of
misunderstanding. But
one of the sweetest
times of feeling the energies of the
dvatars was when I was in Buddha on
pilgrimage
and I'd it had taken a lot of work. It
was the hot season. It was sakapulja but
I'd got permission to sit all night
under the bodhic tree and for various
comet reasons I was allowed inside the
gates. So was actually just able to be
there. Only one there apart from four
men with big sticks. Um and then in the
morning the the kind of sweepers in
attendance came and
they were going to be hauling water out
of a kind of wells to to
water the bodhic tree. So just as I'd
helped them with the sweeping which was
radical for them, I took over the
watering of the Bodhi tree and I felt
such um gratitude and love as I was
pouring the water on the tree and then I
heard all the data tubas.
They were so pleased
that I was there. It was just so it was
still feels moving that sense of um the
beings that rejoice in our goodness
and really feeling their tremendous
excitement.
you know, you really share. There are
very special places and there are beings
who really rejoice in our faith and our
gratitude and the very wholesome
qualities of heart.
>> So,
thank you both of you. Yeah.
>> And Eliza, anything you'd be willing to
Yeah. share? Yeah. [laughter]
Um,
>> all the cool kids are doing it.
>> Oh, well, in that case, [laughter]
I get my ticket in. Um,
a few brief ones in a in in a way, you
know, I I love this this mudra of
touching the earth and the earth
responding. And I think, you know,
pantheists weren't entirely wrong,
aren't entirely wrong. No, deep movement
is. And and the earth does respond. I I
know I've had um you know very important
questions for myself in my life where
I've said okay this thing's driving me
crazy. I I need to know if if this is
the case let a butterfly come and land
on my left shoulder and that happening.
And you'd think what are the what are
the odds of that? And then the sort of
there's this response of oh yeah that
sense that you're not alone in your
aspirations and in your
you know that there's a connectedness
that we're not seeing and and and and
beings respond through form as well. And
at the um at this DMX stuper in Sarnath,
that's a place very special to me. Um,
when I first went on that pilgrimage
with Rakita Terra and and a group from
the Buddhist Society of Victoria back in
the '9s and uh
uh I remember just sitting um by the
stuper and touching my hand to the earth
in mimicry of of the Buddha and feeling
the earth, feeling the vibrations
through the earth, you know, um you're
here, you belong. A kind of sense of
yes, this happened here. Just this
strong rumbling up through the earth and
up through my body that that gave me um
a sense beyond thought and words of um
the connectedness of realms and that um
we we don't know all there all that's
that is to be known but we are um held
in something that is supporting our
movement toward awakening.
Uh and then more recently on um on the
pilgrimage that I took a group through
in uh November this year, November,
December, we were at an ashram of um
Nim Karoli Baba and uh very beautiful
energy there at that ashram even though
people have now moved through barriers
quite quickly and there are guards with
whistles if you stay too long. So
beneath all of that noise and in respect
of all the different people who who want
to go there, um two of the people on my
group received a very clear message, got
a very strong one got a very strong
message about the person standing beside
them
conveyed it and something quite
profound, you know, was was opened up.
So that sense of going in with with a
commitment, an open heart and um a
commitment to awakening and and an
openness to forces does allow forces to
to move through. Um the weirdest one on
pilgrimage for me 5 years ago was when I
put my credit card into a an auto teller
machine and it went clunk clunk and it
got swallowed up and I thought, "Oh
dear, this is complicated." I was in the
middle of a transaction but also I
needed access to funds and uh went back
to my room and I I just reflected on
pilgrimage and and opened up and and and
recognized well things happen that's all
right and um I went back the next day
and asked them to check in the machine
and there was nothing there and I opened
my wallet and the card that I had seen
swallowed up was there in my wallet and
I thought well there are beings that
support people who are who are um
focused in on on paying homage to the
sacred sites.
>> It's really beautiful. Um thank you so
much for sharing that with us. I means a
lot.
>> Yes. Some some people might hear that
and think it's airy fairy, but I think
there's something grounded. I mean a lot
of the stories that you just told really
are like physically grounded. You know,
watering the roots of the bodhic tree or
touching the earth in different ways.
And there's a suta which kind of I've
noticed in your teachings pop up over
decades. So in one of your early talks
that's recorded willa um you mentioned
the mulika suta uh which is about all
dharmas have their root in craving. This
is angutra 8.83
and this is the subject of your most
recent both of your most recent um
retreat at cloud mountain. And it's a
fascinating suit. I encourage everybody
to read it. Um, and one of the latter
phrases has always been a bit
interesting for me and I I'm curious to
hear both of your takes on it. Um, and
that line is that vimui sabama.
So all things have vinui or liberation
or freedom as their essence or as their
heartwood or as their their core. So
what is what does that mean that all
things have liberation as their core?
Everything is dharma listen to and
everything has the qualities of the
dharma you know in terms of three
characteristics nicha duka anata so
everything is pointing to the
unconditioned
you know and everything is in a way
dispanding and revealing nibana
you know the The very essence of
everything is emptiness.
>> So the the the
sutra is a real teaching and in
understanding grasping
and what my sense my experience is that
the very grasping of the mind means we
cannot see what's also here. Look talks
about nibbana is as close as your face.
You're just not seeing it yet. So back
to the gestalt
in my experience the very grasping of
the mind means in those gestalt pictures
we're just seeing the young lady with
the hat. Yeah. And the eyes the grasping
of the eyes means we cannot see what
also is there. But if we let everything
soften and relax and relax out of
grasping, all of a sudden there's the
crone. The old lady is there. She was
there all the time.
Yeah. So it is the same that the work is
really to come out of this leaning and
stealing. You could call it a bul calls
it stealing. The way we lean out and
grasp everything as well. When that
relaxes,
something else that was always there is
revealed. And the suit is taking us
through this deep process of seeing and
letting go.
It's not we're not constructing
anything. We're just letting go of what
is in the way.
>> Yes. So I almost have an image in my
mind of a like a in the wind a kind of
um let's say a piece of paper or
something drifting in the wind turning
this way and that way on in on in on
itself knotted entangled and then it
lets go. There's a kind of sense of a
smoothing out. Um, you know, Upasiki's
phrasing of an unentangled knowing, all
outwardgoing knowing cast aside, that
for me cuts to the heart of this this
piece of this suta. Um, that sense of um
awareness and and form in entangled is
where all the trouble is. That's where
all suffering is. That grasping, that
entanglement of consciousness with its
objects or awareness with form. And when
form is seen as such, there's there's a
release
and we're back to refuge.
So again and again I'm not saying any
different anything different really from
what Will has just shared but that sense
of again and again um you know the the
the the truth the heart of reality is
awakened
and it's the it's the appropriation of
of um of nature by mind by chitt the
appropriation of what doesn't belong is
where all the trouble starts. the
conjuring trick of consciousness
>> to use one of the Buddha's simileies.
>> So I don't Mahabu is Go ahead. Go ahead.
>> No, please. You're Please.
>> Well, it just it it brings me back to
another um area of focus for me and for
us in our teachings is Arjun Mahabua
actually and his his particular
teachings on on Chitta I think are
really important. they've been really
helpful in my practice and his um his
enlightenment discourse that's you know
available on YouTube um really blows me
away and I've watched it many many times
and held it as a um as a recollection
how he
you know relentlessly [laughter]
pursues any sense of positionality or
point of view. Um e even that great
luminosity that had him bewitched for
some time, he starts to see it has a
center, you know. And anything with a
center, it's not free. It's not
released. And he just he just zeros in
again and again and again until it's
seen. And when it's seen, the whole
thing breaks apart. It's it's very
moving and um it's almost a textbook
description of of the Buddha's um
awakening as well. I I find that that's
where I take true inspiration that that
description and that way of working that
um
that holds a kind of hermeneutics of
suspicion of any
any um self thing any positionality or
locality.
>> That's that's great. We'll see if we can
put a a link to that that talk that the
word for that center is da da pulp is
Thai of baa. So it's like the point of
becoming or the point of
>> of being and when you solidify around
that that's where all the sara is from.
Not the pope. Not the pope.
>> Not the pope.
>> I'm um the language you used about all
things are disbanding, revealing
nibbana. Um I just find that so
beautiful and for me it really echoes
the trajectory of this conversation, you
know, touching kind of the brokenness of
of the world and and all these things.
And then you know that invoking loving
kindness and a reaction and then you
know the brightness of you know these
other really wholesome elements we touch
with the path um the davas and more just
all therapy also there and then you know
coming to to liberation in the end and
um I just want to honor that that
conversation you two had with us and
being so honest and authentic through it
all. We are very grateful for the
connection and for the gift you both
have given the world and continue to um
please visit us in Seattle soon and we
wish you all the best in this year of
retreat as well.
>> Thank you so much. It's been it's been a
great pleasure.
>> Thanks for all that you do.
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