Dr. Adi Jaffe: The Truth About Addiction, Trauma, Shame, and Breaking Free

What if everything you thought you knew about autism and
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the way you see it. Welcome to Why Not Me?
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is where understanding begins. If this kind of conversation matters
to you, then follow the show so you don't miss
what comes next. Joining us today is doctor Adi Jaffi,
a UCLA trained psychologist, ted X speaker in one of
the most forward thinking voices in the addiction space today.
He's also the author of Unhooked, a book that pushes
back on the traditional labels and stigma surrounding addiction and
ask a very powerful question, what if addiction isn't a
disease but a deeply human response to pain, trauma, and
unmet needs. He doesn't just study addiction, He's lived it.
In this conversation, we're going to explore what it really
means to break free from destructive patterns, why willpower alone
isn't just the answer, and how understanding the why behind
behavior might be the key to lasting change. It's a
great story, so let's dig into it. Thanks for joining
us today.
Yeah, I appreciate you having me man, Oh.
It's my pleasure. Let's start out with what you do
and how you got there?
Sure, I mean nowadays I do a lot, but I speak,
I coach and consult especially executives and professionals, and then
I run a company called ignited igntd that offers mental
health and addiction support for people through software and we
created So that's my hope, my attempt at being able
to give help to people who can't afford high end
care and just really need support and so you know,
think mobile based. We've been doing that since twenty eighteen,
so before COVID and everybody went online, and I have
helped thousands and thousands of people who struggle anything from
depression and anxiety all the way to addictions.
So what is your focus? You have a great spectrum there,
as we all know. You can have one end of
the spectrum to the other, but in the middle is
probably where you'll land and what you'll focus on. So
what is that focus or in your case, maybe specialty?
Yeah, good, good call. I mean my main focus now
is on trying to help people who are struggling with
where they are find a way to a better place.
And that takes a ton of different approaches, and it
depends on the client and money, time availability, all those
things right in terms of what they can do. But yes,
that is the central theme to everything.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. What are some of the
more common issues that you face on a daily basis?
Yeah, I mean one of the main most common issues
is people are used to behaving the way they used
to behaving, and they've been doing it, oftentimes for decades,
and so even when they want you know, we've all
heard the thing, right, if you keep doing the same
thing and keep getting the same results, right, that's easy
to say, really really hard to change your habits. I
was actually just leading a group yesterday and talking you know,
there's so many books on habit change. Atomic habitage is
obviously one of the ones that really comes up for people,
but that comes from a book called Tiny Habits by
doctor bj Fogg and other books on behavior change, and
so people are often preoccupied with hout to change their behavior,
but they don't really want to change their behavior. They
want to change their life, they want to change their outcomes.
So on the executive professional side, they may look like
somebody who feels like they want to advance more. They
want to move up in their career. They want to
make more money, you get a bigger title, be in
charge of more. But there's something they keep banging ahead
against the wall. They can't reach that level or it's
going too slowly for them. On the addiction side, it
could be somebody who you know, they've been over drinking
for fifteen twenty years. They know it's a problem, they
know it's caused them issues, it's causing issues to people
around them, and they can't seek to get their head
around it. But you know, for so many people that
I've worked with on the family front, it's they keep
gagging fights with their wife or their husband, and they
can't get themselves out of it. I look at all
those things through the same lens, and that is you're
stuck in a habit. It's a loop, it keeps playing.
In order to get the results you want, you've got
to be able to change their behavior. So when I
talk about in my book, and you know this is
my most recent book on Hooked talk about is the
way to get that change is not actually to try
to change the behavior itself, although that's a small part
of it. It's to understand what is driving the behavior
underneath the surface. Go change that, and then you'll get
the changes you want in your life.
When people think about addiction, lots of times they think
about substance abuse. When you really get into what addiction is,
lots of times it's a reason to go to something
to get away from something. How do you approach that
When you get into that type of scenario, you can't
depend on something else to fix it. Sometimes you have
to take control yourself.
You have to fix it yourself. You have to confront
the situation that you're in and be honest about it.
I'll tell you a story. It ended up being I
don't think in this book, it's in the previous book,
but I had a woman who came to me and
she had been struggling with drinking. And when she walked
through the door, it was the classic line, Hey, I'm
an alcoholic. I've been trying to slow down or stop
drinking for a number of years now. It hasn't work.
My husband is threatening to leave, et cetera, et cetera.
She could kind of, you know, tell the quick essential story,
three kids, Orange County, well off drinking soccer mom. Right, Well,
we started working together and within three days of working together,
it turned out her marriage has been an unhappy marriage
for about the last fifteen years. She and her husband
met in college, and she didn't realize that when she
got married and once the kid came, she would have
to give up her life. So she was on her
way to becoming a lawyer, gave that up to raise
the kids. Now she's stuck at home, really frustrated. She
never made anything of her life on a daily basis.
Her identity was giving her struggles. And then every time
she interacted with her husband, who was a traveling salesman,
so he was gone five six days out of the week,
home for the weekend, back out on the road. And
then the relationship is a nightmare too. And I said
to her, I said, look, we're not going to be
able to help you drinking until we fix the way
you feel about your day to day life and fix
what's going on with the relationship. Because even if I
stopped you from drinking, you're going to go to something
else in order to fix the fact that you don't
like your life. And that's just an example of one
of thousands of stories that always follow will almost always
follow the same line, and that is, I'm really unhappy,
I'm miserable. I'm using fill in whatever the blank is
for you to deal with it. How can you help
me stop you with this through drinking, using porn, drugs, whatever.
And it always, like you said, it always goes back
Tony to figure it out. Well, what is the struggle?
What are you struggling with on a daily basis? What
is hurting you? What is making you anxious, angry, frustrated,
What is hurting your belief into yourself? What is you know,
removing your hope or a better world. We've got to
get to that, and once we solve that, we'll solve
the addiction.
Now, I'm sure you've heard this many times. People will say, well,
that comes down to personal responsibility. All that is is
a couple of words people use many times. I'm sure
people feel like they've lost control and they're trying to
gain that control back. So do you phrase it in
such a way that by taking control back, you are
actually taking your own personal responsibility back and hopefully that
makes them feel better In the end.
I want to answer that in a few different parts
if I can. There's certainly a ton of personal responsibility.
But all of us started in a place in the
world we had absolutely no control over our lives when
we were children. We didn't have a say, We didn't
have a say in where we were born, what we
did on a daily basis, what culture, what habits, what
world environment in our home we were born into right now,
for many of us, the environment was relatively safe and
maybe casually traumatizing and stressful, but not in a severe way.
But for a subset of people, and the subset I'm
talking about is fifteen and twenty percent of the population,
that's not true. They grew up in our version of
hell for that sub section. That's why I'm going to
answer this in a few different sections. For that section
of the population, they are fighting an uphill battle because
those experiences of childhood shifted the way that their brain
processes the world in a way that for many others
is unfathomable. I've never struggled with this, but I've dealt
with hundreds of clients who were sexually abused as children.
It's hard to only rest on personal responsibility when that
happened to you as a child, and you're also still
right the abuse happened ten, fifteen, twenty thirty years ago.
You unfortunately, it's not fair, but you, unfortunately are now
saddled with a ton of work to do to overcome
something you had no role in doing.
Yeah, that's a very tough situation.
I favorite therapeutic kind of retreats environments that I went to.
The practitioners there had this saying that I really like,
which is everybody's guilty and nobody's to blame. What does
that mean? I'm here now. All the people will hurt
me in the past may be guilty of hurting me.
They have their own reasons. They tried whatever in their
distorted version of reality was the best. And I'm still
the one sitting here trying to change my life. They
can't do it for me. So it still falls in
line with what you were talking about, Tony. It's still
your responsibility, but you're saddled with this way. For many
of the rest of us, there's a version that I
want to answer, which is a much more subtle version
of what happens to those who've been heavily traumatized as kids.
Most people don't know this. You know, the way memories
and the way habits are formed in the brain is
biologically structural. What do I mean by that. There's this
concept and neuroscience called heavy and synopticity. It's the idea
that neurons have fired together, wire together. I literally ran
a group on this a couple of days ago in
my program. But so I want the labor an hour
long explanation of this. But the idea is this, when
you have parts in your brain that work together a lot,
they become more entrenched. They literally there's these things called dendrites.
Your neurons grow like these bigger, thicker roots to connect
areas of the brain that are regularly connected. It's literally
like the cable the wiring that is connected and becomes
thicker and better.
Okay, yeah, that's really interesting. Can you dive a little
deeper on that.
That happens for people and for things that happen regularly.
So habits that you have in your everyday life, they
become like physical structures in your brain. You can think
of it as a groove. Imagine like you walk through
the jungle, and if you walk the same path a
thousand times between your feet stopping on the ground and
the machete moving around and cutting down some trees. There's
now going to be a really clear path in the jungle.
Right now, Technically you could cross the jungle through other paths,
but this path is really clear, and you're going to
want to go through the clear path because it's easier.
That's what habits do in your brain. It is easier
to follow the same habitual route. So even for the
rest of us who don't have highly traumatized paths, the
way we learn to do things at a younger age
and through our development become soft, easy, automatic path And
when you decide that you want to change, you again
are now fighting against the built in physical mechanism. And
I try to explain that to people because so many
people get disturbed or anxious, resentful, upset that changing their
habits gets hard, and then they read a book like
Atomic Habits that says, hey, you know, just make the
hard things easier, make the easy things harder. Connect to
an identity of somebody who wants to change, and go
out there and do it, and they try and they fail.
Sometimes failure is the path to success.
What I try to explain to a lot of people
is odds are you will fail multiple times in trying
to recreate a new route through your jungle. That's okay.
Next time, get back up, remake the commitment to try
to go down that new path. Over time, you can
forge another new path. Number one, Number two. There was
a massive disservice done to us a couple of decades
ago when this idea of a twenty one day habit
change thing became a reality.
Yeah, I remember that.
I think that's complete. BS. You don't change your habitage
one days. I don't know who picked that frickin' number.
It's like picked out of a half. The number of
days that takes to change a habit is totally variable.
You can start it as early as twenty some thirty days,
forty days like that's on the lowest end. It can
go up to a year or more. The average seems
to be more around sixty five seventy seventy five days.
And if you think about that, that's two and a
half months of war on something to change. I'll give
a stupid example, but it'll serve the purpose. I brush
my teeth with my right hand. If I want to
start being able to brush my teeth with my left hand,
for somewhere between a month to two to three months.
I'm gonna have to wake up every morning and remind
myself that the thing that feels natural and easy, which
is just doing this, is not what I'm doing today.
I'm going to go do this and it feels awkward
and it's weird and I'm not covering my whole mouth.
But if I stick with it day after day after day,
two three months later, the thing that feels weird is
going to feel normal. And so what I really try
to enforce for all my clients, No, there's a process.
So in the book, there's a path in which I
help people understand where is my behavior broke? Where am
I screwing up? And then there's another process, a loop
that I take them through which helps them understand how
to change it. I call it the eat loop. The explore, accept, transform, explore,
identify where the loop is broken except and there's a
process for acceptance. But you can't change where you haven't
accepted about yourself, because then you're fighting an internal battle.
So acceptance means reducing shame about it. It means having
compassion forgiving you yourself and others who have brought you
to that place, and once you get to that place,
you're ready for transformation. And transformation is normally, not always,
but normally less about stopping the bad behavior and more
about replacing it with better alternative behaviors. And there are
a whole set of different ways to get that done.
I'm glad you brought up a shame part of it.
That's a big thing that people really don't think about.
If you took the shame out of whatever it might be, addiction,
put a term toward anything, how would that change the
way that people perceive themselves and perceive the world.
To help make that change.
I think shame is one of the most insidious emotions
we have. It plays a role, right if you think
back to tribal times and when we lived in small
communities and you know, twenty thirty fifty people. You know,
shame is the idea that I am different, less than
the people around me. And the different part is what matters, right,
because if my insights don't match what you need from me,
I could get ostracized, right, I could be shunned. Nowadays,
if I'm shunned, less of a big deal. There's a
huge community out here. I'll go find some other friends
think evolutionarily. If my community kicks me out, I'm on
my own out there in the wilderness, I may die.
So there's a real need to belong, and shame makes
you feel like you don't belong. I have a really
weird example. I hope this lands for the listeners, but
I just went through it in a group. We were
actually unpacking this in a group. I was just leading.
And I believe all of us have unhealthy beliefs about
ourselves that create little moments of shame. There's big shame
right like again, if you were molested as a child,
A lot of people have shame around that. I'm not
even talking about that. Shame very crucial, very important, very
very problematic, But there are these little micro moments where
we feel shame. So we were unpacked people's unhelpful beliefs
about themselves. And this one woman who's very high functioning,
but she said she had a belief to share, and
the initial belief she shared that was upsetting to her
when she thought about it was that if she has
a request of others, if she needs something from others,
they may judge her. I think some of us can
understand that, right, if you need help from other people.
They may look down to you, okay, but I wanted
more information, so Tony, I asked her, Hey, can you
give me an example, because it sounds like you're talking
about something pretty specific. And she started getting embarrassed. That
shame started building up.
You know.
She thought about it for a second and she said, yeah,
you know, the other day I had to go return
something that I bought at the store. She wanted credit back,
she wanted a refund for it. You could see her,
you know, blushing and getting embarrasseds thinking about this moment.
But she said, I thought to myself that as I
walk into the store with this item that I wanted
to return. She started getting anxious just thinking about it
because she thought, you know, the clerk at the store
would judge her, maybe the people standing around would judge her. Now,
I know that's really small, but think about the sort
of belief somebody must have about themselves and the world
to think that if I bought something and then I
want to return it because I don't like it, people
might look down at me. In what other places in
her life? Does she not ask for what she needs?
Does she not say what she wants to say, does
she not raise her hand in the class or tell
somebody she's in a disagreement with that she disagrees with them,
because the fear shame is that if I do this thing,
I will be different than I will be laughed at,
I will be looked down at. Right now, I think
most people listening right now have had at least a
couple of experiences in their lives where they can relate
to feeling like people are going to look down at you.
The fear and the feeling is semi natural. If you
start stopping yourself from doing things in the world because
of that feeling, or if you start having to drink
or use drugs or in some other way escape the feeling,
that's what we develop some serious problem. I always used
to have a lot of social anxiety, and so I
would have to get really drunk before I would go
to events because I didn't want to be judged. But
the judgment was happening in my own head, right So
that's where a shame, I think comes in the moment
we remove And it's funny as we get older, we
care less about it. Right when I was fourteen eighteen
twenty five, I really cared what people thought about me.
I'm almost fifty. I'm not going to say I don't
care at all what people think about me, but I
don't care about it all that much, and that provides
a lot of relief so that I can act in
ways that are more more aligned with who I want
to be.
I think what you're describing really comes down to a
sense of personal comfort within yourself. When you're younger, you
tend to be more focused on what others think, trying
to fit in, trying to belong, trying to meet expectations.
But as you get older, something begins to shift. You
have more comfort in your own skin, more confident in
who you are, and less dependent on outside validation. You
reach a point where you can be completely alone and
feel at peace, or you can stand in the middle
of a thousand people and still do exactly what feels
right to you without worrying about judgment. It's like you
create your own space, your own sense of belonging wherever
you are. What you said makes a lot of sense,
but the truth is getting to that place isn't easy
for everyone.
It's a good to get there for some people, definitely
difficult to speed up that process. You know, we didn't
talk about it much, but I went through a lot,
and not that early in life, right, I was in
my mid to late twenties, early thirties, but including my
own addiction story, getting arrested, spending time in jail, by
my late twenties early thirties, I was confronted with a
reality which was parts of my life were going to
make people feel uncomfortable because I'd sold drugs, I'd used drugs,
I'd gone to jail, I had nine felonties on my record.
You know, everything is double sided, right, Everything is good
and bad and an interesting way. The experience was negative,
but I had to figure out how to live in
a world where you know what, Tony. I knew for
a fact some people will judge me, and I had
to be in some moments where somebody listened to my
story and they just didn't want to spend time with
me anymore because they didn't trust me. I could play
the victim, or I could understand, Hey, you know, I
understand that for somebody who's never lived on the side
of the tracks that I lived on and didn't do
the things that I've done. Sitting next to a nine
time felon there's been in jail may be uncomfortable, and
they may just not want that. So I had to
play this game with myself of judging myself less because
I'd been there and I made it out, and now
I was trying to live in normal life, or my
version of normal anyway. But then Tony, I learned not
to judge them as well, because what's right for me
does not have to be right for everybody else. We
all need to discover our version of what works for us.
And again, for people who are stuck in depression and
anxiety and addiction, or in any other version of being
malcontent with their own experience in life, some part of
it may be external, but a lot of it is internal.
A lot of it is their own judgment of the
experience and that they don't feel like they're getting what
they want out of live.
How do you help people move beyond their preconceptions, especially
when what they believe turns out to be completely different
from reality. How do you present your lived experience in
a way that allows them to see the value in
it so they can begin to lower those internal walls
and become more open to understanding.
Let me just say that not everybody needs the same thing.
So the way that I do it is not the
right way for everybody. We've all seen that, David Goggins
kind of you know, motivation by Marine Corps. You know,
get up off your butt and do what I told
you kind of a version. Some people need that, by
the way, and it works really really well for them.
That's not my version. So the way I do it,
the way I go about it is by trying to
actually understand the person's path so that I can mirror
back to them the lesson you just said, because you
said something really important, which was, how do you get
somebody essentially who doesn't believe in themselves or only looks
of darkness, only looks at what's wrong. How do you
get them to understand that their experience is actually motivational, hopeful,
et cetera. Right, easy to say, hard to do, man
hard to do, because when somebody has always looked at
what doesn't work, there's this concept in the brain. It's
called a confirmation bias. Their brain is now trained to
look at what's broken. And in a way like I'm
an entrepreneur, you know, you've had this podcast for a
long time. In a way, if you wake up in
the morning and think about all the things that aren't working.
You may be really good at achieving things because you'll
be there the first thing in the morning to fix
the thing that didn't work, and you'll spend all night
up in bed, unable to sleep because you can't stop
yourself from thinking about the forty things that need to
be fixed tomorrow in the twelve you didn't do right today.
You're constantly trying to make things better because you can't
calm down until they're perfect. But they're never perfect, So
in a way that might be debilitating for you, but
it might actually cause high achievement.
Yeah.
I call that the comfort zone. People will stay there
because they feel safe. The truth is, if you never
step outside that comfort zone, you're never going to grow.
You're never going to take the risks that might push
you forward or even knock you down. Life is always
going to be hills and valleys. Some days you feel great,
others not so great. Sometimes a bad day turns into
a bad week, then it starts to feel like everything
is going wrong. After enough of those moments, you get
to the point where I can't keep doing this, Maybe
it's time to give up. Then sometimes It only takes
one small moment, one sliver of hope to break through
that wall, and if you can grab onto that, it
can shift everything, because in the end, it's not just
the circumstances holding people back, it's the mindset.
And once that's.
Starts to change, that's when people can begin to move
forward and create again.
Yeah, you know the way I say that, I love that.
That's so true. The way I always talk about that is,
you know, there's that saying we make plans and God laughs.
In case everybody listening to this doesn't already know this,
I'm sure you do. But we have zero control over
what happens in the world. Zero. We barely control what
we do, and this is hard for a lot of
people to believe or understand or just accept. Even though
we control what we do, we rarely control the outcome
of what happens when we do it right. Yes, there's
the story I use in my program, my online program
that when I first heard it was such a good
example of this. I'm old enough to remember Queen Latifa.
Do you remember Quen Latifa? Oh yeah, yeah, all right, perfect.
There's so many people that are too young listening right now,
probably for this, but go look her und Queen Latifa
came from a very poor neighborhood. Mom had nothing. I
think her mom was a school teacher. I don't remember
this is exactly, but poor family, poor family, had nothing.
You know, she started rapping, got famous with her little group,
then started producing. She made it. She made money, and
one of her biggest joys having money was being able
to give back to her family that didn't have much.
So she got I think she got her MoMA house first,
but then afterwards, I want to say, for his eighteenth birthday,
she got her brother this bike that he had been
dreaming of, motorcycle that was like a Suzuki GSXR nine
one thousand or six hund or something. Anyway, the bike
that he had been He had posters of this bike
on his freaking wall. Right, she bought him his dream bike.
He killed himself on it two months later. Two months
she got everything she wanted in life. She gave her
brother everything he wanted in life, and the gift that
she gave him killed her, killed him. You know, you
look at that and you go, damn. You know, I'm
damned if I do. I'm damned if I don't. When
I was broke. I couldn't get him the bike he wanted,
and he was sad about it. When I made all
the money in the world, I got in the bike,
he died on it. We do not control what happens
in the world. And for me the moment I started
realizing this, because when I was younger, I was stupid
and I thought I did control what happened in the world,
and so I was always looking for the best way
to control it. Once this dawned on me, the amount
of relief. Some people have a really hard time with this.
For me, it provided a massive amount of relief, because
here's the thing. If I already don't control what happens
in the world, and the way I look at it is,
we only have a couple of options. We can just
give up control and just wake up every morning and
not do anything because the world is going to do
whatever it's going to do anyway. Or we can just
show up and do our damn best every single moment,
because then I'm giving everything I can and the rest
I leave up the chance, which I was going to
have to leave up the chance anyway. And so the
way I try to get to people is to say look,
you did your best until this moment. It's just that
you can change what your best means moving on. I
love you. Know you said something essentially, but you could
have a whole bad week, man. I was. I was
just in that place three days ago. Every day I
was talking to my wife on the phone. It almost
ended when the right front wheel on my new truck
was this close to falling off.
Wow.
And the reason it was this close to falling off
was because I bought some land. It's just land, there's
nothing on it. So I camped on it the night before,
and apparently sometime from the moment I parked it to
the moment I left, I was there for about twenty
four hours. Somebody stole four out of six bolts out
of my right front tire. I realized it just in
time before the wheel fell off. I was late to
a meeting. I was already tired because I've been up
all night like in this camping area, and it was
already a hard week, like you said, Tony, And I
remember I was talking to my wife and this thing
dawned on me. I said, you know what, I'm just
happy I'm not falling apart while this is happening because
day after day after day, it seems like everything is
harder than it needs to be.
It is, there's no doubt about that. For sure.
It's not just our lives now, it's what's going on
in the world. The world is an upside down mode
that it has never been. Yeah, with the world the
way it is creates a lot of stress on people,
and that stress is in so many different levels. Then
when you combine the stress that's going on in the world,
combine with what's going on in your little part of
the world, then with everything that's going on, it just
compounds it. And people say, why do I even try?
Well, I even try.
Yeah, So somewhere deep down you have to find that
motivation to keep moving forward because if you don't have control,
give it your best and see what happens exactly.
And by the way, that's a big understanding shift. That's
a big perspective shift for a lot of people, right
because if everything is going sideways and I don't control
whether it's going to go up or down at any
point in time, all I can do is my best
is the way I look at it. Now. Here's the
other thing that I think is important for a lot
of people to remember, whether you like it or not,
whether you like hearing this or not. We need the
bad times, We need the downs because it's only in
comparison to the downs that the highs feel good.
Yes, that's right.
If everything worked out every moment of every day, whether
you think about it or not, right now, whether you
understand it or not, whether you believe it or not,
right now, you would get so bored of life. You
would get so bored. Like imagine if every single person
you asked out said yes, and every single thing you
wanted to buy you could have, and everything you tasted
was the best thing you've ever tasted in your life,
and every show you saw was the most interesting show
you saw. You'd love the first week, the first month
might be exciting. By the end of the first year,
nothing would matter anymore.
That is so true.
And by the way, the reason I know this because
I've never been I've never gotten to live through that life.
But the reason I know this is I've worked with
a lot of people who made a ton of money.
And some of them made a ton of money because
they sold a company. I'm talking for hundreds of millions
of dollars, right So they went from working their butts
off every day, slaving, slaving, slaving, maybe being comfortable, but
not being rich by any stretch of the imagination, and
all of a sudden, their bank account has nine figures
in it. They can do anything they want, Tony. Yeah,
they can fly anywhere, buy any plane, do anything they want.
You know what ends up happening pretty quickly. Yes, they
get bored, yah and frustrated because nothing is a challenge anymore.
And that's why these people start taking on massive world
challenges because nothing at the lower level becomes interesting anymore.
And I think we can adopt a learning from that,
and that is appreciate the difficult times because you'll remember
them when you're on the other side, and then compare
is how you'll know you're happy.
Tell us how people can get in touch with you,
find you, follow you so they can see what you're doing.
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. So Unhooked is the recent book.
If you want to get that, it's on Amazon and
anywhere else you get it. I have a website called
a Djaffy dot com if you want to either work
with me or watch me speak or read any of
the stuff I've done and then I wore the hat.
IGNTD is the name of the company that offers up
very low cost help for people who struggle with mental
health and addiction twenty four to seven help. You can
literally go on right now, sign up for a very
very small price, and get the help you need.
Yeah, that's great. Well, this conversation hasn't been awesome. There
are so many things that we didn't even touch upon.
We could talk forever on this. It's been a pleasure
having your join us today.
I love it. Thank you, Yeah, thank you for all
the great, great examples and questions. It's been really fun.
It's been my pleasure. Thanks again, Hey, sincere. Thank you
to our guests for sharing their journey with us today.
We appreciate their honesty, courage, and willingness to open their
heart in hopes of helping others. If today's conversation helped
you see the world a little differently, then we've accomplished
exactly what we set out to do. Until next time,
keep believing, keep learning, and most importantly, keep asking yourself,
why not me?