Green and novel: the future of energy generation

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Physics.

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World. Hello and welcome to the
Physics World Stories Podcast.

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I'm Andrew G. Lester. In this episode,

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we're gonna hear about some
fascinating technologies,

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which are hopefully building
towards our carbon neutral future,

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or at least the one that we're
being promised later in the podcast,

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we'll hear about how Tidal stream
energy might join the energy mix in a

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considerable way
relatively soon. But first,

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we'll go to the European Space Agency,

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where the Solaris project is
looking at using solar energy

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from space right here on
earth. Here's Nicole Kaplan.

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I am an exploration scientist at the
European Space Agency based in Nord Vike,

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uh, on the coast of the Netherlands,
um, which is nice and sunny today,

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but it's not always sunny. See, I'm
jumping straight into the topic.

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Oh.

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Well, yeah. So tell me what it's,
tell me, tell it's Solaris, right?

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Which to me sounds like a rather
wonderful old Russian sci-fi film.

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You, you are not wrong, um,

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in thinking that it's related to
sci-fi because the original concepts,

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um, were indeed, um,
sci-fi. So Solaris, uh,

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in essence is space-based
solar power that is, uh,

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beaming energy wirelessly, um,

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from the sun to solar panels in orbit

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to a receiving station on
earth through the form of

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microwaves, converting that
energy into usable power, um,

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for the grid for people like you
and me and everybody else. The,

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I the idea itself has been around,
um, for, yeah, I think just over,

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over a century. I think the earliest
evidence that we found, uh, of this,

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uh, was in the 1920s, um,
a Russian theorist, um,

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called Constantin Kovski. I
think I'm pronouncing that right.

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My Russian's not very good proposed
deploying gigantic mirrors in space,

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um, to, to reflect the, uh,

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solo energy back down
to earth and adorably.

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This was in the context of boiling,

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I think it was 10 cups of
coffee within two minutes.

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Um, but, but he, um, he decided
that clouds could be a problem. Um,

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so I don't think ever took that
idea further. You mentioned sci-fi,

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so a little later on in the
1940s, uh, Isaac Asimov, uh,

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wrote about weatherproof,
uh, microwave beams.

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This is in historic reason or
reasons. I, I don't remember. Um, and,

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and this was beaming
microwaves from space, uh,

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to power things not only on
earth, but uh, uh, in other,

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in other space destinations or wherever
we would need power on, on the moon or,

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or beyond. Um, and so it, it's,

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it's sort of rooted in, in, in science
fiction. Um, but then since then,

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uh, there's been a trend of
interests coming and going. Um,

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multiple space agencies, big
industries have discussed this,

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but the barrier has usually been
related to unsurprisingly the cost

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of the thing, uh, launch costs.

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As that landscape is changing and
things are generally becoming cheaper to

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center space, um, we can put
it on the table again. Um,

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and we are not the only ones doing
this, so it's quite an exciting time.

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But is it.

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I mean, is like a real feasible
thing that might actually happen?

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So at the moment, and I, <laugh>
can see your face looking at me,

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<laugh> filled with, uh, skepticism
<laugh>, um, and rightly so,

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because this is an enormous,
enormous operation.

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It'll be a big engineering
challenge. Um, at the moment,

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uh, what Isa European Space Agency
are doing, um, and I'll speak,

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I'm not an engineer, but I
will use engineering speak
for just a hot moment is,

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uh, phase zero or pre-phase A
studies. And what this means is, uh,

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the feasibility study, so we're,
um, picking this concept apart,

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um, involving, uh, industry
industrial partners, um,

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to help us ascertain whether or
not this is a viable thing. And,

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and we've already done a few things, uh,
because as I mentioned a bit earlier,

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the, the biggest barrier
historically was cost.

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So first things first money talks,

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and we had the advice of two
independent studies on cost benefit

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analysis,

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and they both determined
that this could be viable.

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Um, but it just depends
on a number of factors.

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But things getting cheaper means
that that could be going, uh,

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in a positive direction.

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Okay. What's getting cheaper?

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Uh, the cost of sending anything
to space, um, per kilogram,

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um, and things that used to cost, uh,

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a hundred billion would now cost 1
billion, uh, for example. And that's,

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that's a really like rudimentary
kind of statement to make. But, uh,

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the cost of, of anything per kilogram,
uh, in general is getting cheaper.

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SpaceX, for example, um,
who have completely, um,

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revolutionized the landscape and changed
the game with sending things to space

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and also making it better,
I suppose, in terms of, um,

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the reusable launches.

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Could you tell me a bit more
about how it would work?

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How'd you bring the energy
from solar panels in space?

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If you imagine a solar farm
on earth, um, at scale,

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and these are actually getting
bigger on earth, um, imagine this,

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but in orbit, so out in space, um,

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and we're targeting something
called, uh, geosynchronous orbit. Um,

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so that would be quite far away, um,

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far enough away from Earth
that it would receive. Um,

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there's high enough in the atmospheres
that it would receive this, uh,

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solar radiation, um, or sunlight
all of the time. So 24 7,

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and that would also be unfiltered.

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So unlike on earth where
you have the atmosphere

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clouds in space, you don't have that.
We don't, we don't have space clouds.

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We do it with, with cosmic dust, but
I'm not gonna get into that. Um, so,

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so you have this, uh,

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high intensity solar energy
that would essentially

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interact with the photovoltaic cells.

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So you would have these large solar
panels, if you like, all joined together.

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And when I say large, I'm, I'm
not talking about just, um, yeah,

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the size of the I s s, which is the
largest object that we've put in space.

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I mean,

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this would be an order of
magnitude greater if it was
to produce the power that

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we needed. So we're talking an
enormous, enormous structure.

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So just imagine this huge, um,
solar farm. It's out there in space,

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it's hanging there, and it's
receiving energy from the sun.

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Then power will be beamed
via the microwaves energy

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from this structure, um, hanging
out there in space, um, to, uh,

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a rec 10 or a rectifying antenna
array that would be still

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fairly big, but not as big
at a given location on,

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on ground. And then what that would do,
that receiving station would then, um,

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take that energy and, um,

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and process it and transfer it to
usable energy to be fed into the grid.

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And you're nodding because it, I
mean, it is an enormous, an enormous,

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uh, it's just an ambitious project,
really. And yeah, there are still many,

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many questions to do with feasibility,

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which is the whole reason we're
performing these feasibility studies.

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But the technology, uh, or
the physics, should I say,

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the physics isn't new. Um, and
there are several players that have,

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um, demonstrated that this can
be done. And most recently, um,

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in the United States, uh, Caltech,
um, did a small, uh, tech demo,

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um, obviously yeah, nowhere near, uh, on
the scale of what we would like to do.

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Um, but they put, uh, they put us
a, a smaller structure in space and,

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uh, and being the energy
back down, uh, to us,

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and it's reported to be successful.
I'm still waiting to see the,

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the full details to come
outta that study. Um,

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but so this is nothing new.
Um, but we're doing it.

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And if it can be done and it can be
scaled up and it's cost effective

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and it's safe, um,

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then it could contribute significantly

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to the energy mix that we have
on earth and try and lessen

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our grip on fossil fuels. And so
it'll take it on a huge role in,

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in decarbonization and achieving net,

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the European goal of net zero by
2050. So within the next decade,

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we would hope to see the
first, um, gigawatts of power,

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um, beamed to earth. Oh.

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Right, okay. The energy
from the sun is, you know,

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for the lifetime of humanity,
always going to be there. If we,

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if we could do this,
could it power everything?

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That's a big question, <laugh>.
Um, I, at this point in time,

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I do not think that it would be
able to take over from all of

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the other, um, sources of energy, um,
that we currently use. But indeed for,

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for what's known as base load power,
so that's uninterrupted power,

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so non intermittent, um, sources of
power, it could really be a goer. Um,

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the problem here with other,
um, energy alternatives,

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brilliant ones such as
wind and hydropower, um,

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they're weather dependent and also
location dependent. And so space, space,

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solar power is, um, is free
from those constraints.

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Mm-hmm. I mean, I pre
I presume it would be,

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you wouldn't need batteries as well,

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because you know how much power
you're getting all the time. It, it.

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It would be a constant. Yeah.
Um, and so one of these,

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to put it into context, one of
these, uh, orbiting solar farms, um,

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could replace a nuclear
power station. Just.

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For a further bit of context,

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a one gigawatt power plant in space
would be comparable to the top five

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solar farms on earth.

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And a power plant with a capacity
of one gigawatt could power around

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875,000 households for one year.

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But let's get back to that
conversation with Nicole in the,

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in terms of the location and
space, is that gonna be an issue?

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'cause there's quite a lot of
stuff in space already. There's.

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A, there's a lot of stuff in space.
<laugh> indeed. Um, uh, yeah,

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we have some very clever folk here at
Issa working on exactly where you would

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place, um, place such a, a
large scale solar farm in space.

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And of course, the orbit
is very important, um,

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because of the day night cycles. So
you're going to have to have, um,

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the, like I mentioned earlier,
a geosynchronous orbit,
so it would follow, um,

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it would follow a,

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a particular location on earth
in order to beam that power

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continuously. But also the shape
of the, the solar farm itself,

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um, would need to be created,

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such as that you wouldn't get
total darkness. You would,

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you would always have some
illumination, um, on these solar panels.

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So I would imagine something like
a, like a lattice. Um, I mean,

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I'm a biologist,

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so I think of everything in a double
helix kind of configuration <laugh>, um,

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just like a big, big bit of d n a made
of solar panels. That'd be quite cool.

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Mm-hmm. How, just quickly
while we're there,

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how does a biologist end up doing this?

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Good question. Um, so I joined the
project, um, a couple of months ago.

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Reason being is because although
we have all of these grand plans,

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there are a lot of unknowns and there
are a lot of unknowns that we would

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really enjoy, uh, learning more
about from the scientific community.

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So my role is research scientist,
uh, on this, on this project.

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And I am coordinating, uh,

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various research activities that will go
into informing, uh, a safety case, uh,

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for this. I mean, we already know
a lot about radio frequencies, um,

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and microwave radiation. I think
generally speaking, you can, one,

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one could understand that this sort
of radiation isn't ionizing, um,

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but, or does microwave
radiation equal heat?

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And so the effects that,
um, a beam of, of microwave,

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uh, microwaves coming from the,
the sun, uh, would have, uh,

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would have on humans, on
plants, on animals. Um,

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we really need to
understand this better. And,

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and then there's also the case of what
would happen, uh, to infrastructure.

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If you are, if you're beaming, uh,
these microwaves at a site in frequency,

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what are the implications for,
um, interference, uh, with other,

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uh, telecommunications devices, um,
other satellites, other spacecraft?

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Um, could, could that be a problem? Um,

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as well as what the interactions with
the atmosphere itself are and the

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ionosphere. So there's all of these, um,

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specific topics which we're really
interested, um, to learn more about. Uh,

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and here's a little bit of a plug.
There's actually a call out now. Um,

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if you go on the ISSA website, uh, ideas,

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er t uh, you can apply, uh,

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to be a part of this research. If you
are, um, an expert in the field of,

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uh, of iono spheres or atmospheric,
um, atmospheric science,

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um, and microwave radiation <laugh>,

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that would be very useful to.

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Us. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure there's
people listening who will be, uh,

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experts in those fields. So, yeah.
So come aboard. Yeah, absolutely. Uh,

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we obviously, we'll post
links to that on the,

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on physics wealth website as
well for, for those sorts of, uh,

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people who are interested in
that. There's fusion energy,

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00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:22,710
which is always promised
30 years in the future.

219
00:14:23,410 --> 00:14:25,910
And that's why I'm slightly
more excited about this.

220
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:28,550
'cause you've said maybe the first
gigawatts in the next decade.

221
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,710
Yeah, it seems a little
bit closer. And then, um,

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I also wanted to just go back and
talk cost for a moment. I mean, a lot,

223
00:14:37,510 --> 00:14:42,030
a lot have been, has, has been
invested into, into fusion tech. Um,

224
00:14:42,690 --> 00:14:47,280
and I don't know how
much has even been spent

225
00:14:47,580 --> 00:14:52,470
on, um, oil exploration.
Um, I mean, in the,

226
00:14:52,670 --> 00:14:56,790
I think in the last couple of years
it's been in the hundreds of millions by

227
00:14:57,220 --> 00:15:01,350
certain oil companies. Um, so if you,

228
00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:03,630
if you think about the cost,
'cause people say, well,

229
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this is just going to be too expensive.
If you contextualize it like that,

230
00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:08,950
then perhaps not. Um,

231
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and then the build of a
nuclear power station,

232
00:15:12,450 --> 00:15:15,710
if you take your local example
down the road in Bridgewater,

233
00:15:15,910 --> 00:15:19,470
I think Hinckley point C is
reported to cost in the region of

234
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:24,310
$40 billion, which is what
about 30, which we say 33,

235
00:15:24,930 --> 00:15:29,030
um, billion euros. Uh, something
like this is going to cost

236
00:15:30,730 --> 00:15:33,290
a similar amount. Um, at the moment we,

237
00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:37,970
we are looking at 15 to
20 billion for the first

238
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,530
operational phase. Um, and
of course there's gonna be
additional costs with, uh,

239
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:44,610
with the, with the maintenance.

240
00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:47,050
'cause this thing is going
to have to be maintained.

241
00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:49,450
Space is a really harsh
environment, so, um,

242
00:15:49,630 --> 00:15:52,330
that's going to have to be
taken into consideration. But

243
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,060
it is it expensive? Yes.
Um, but it's, I would say,

244
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,620
no more expensive than
alternative energy sources.

245
00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,960
Uh, presumably it's all gonna be
remotely fixed when it goes wrong, right.

246
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,480
<Laugh>, we, we would, um, we would have,
uh, yeah. Robotic assembly of these,

247
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:15,640
of these vast solar
arrays. So no crew needed.

248
00:16:16,110 --> 00:16:17,800
Okay, I'm on board. Great.

249
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:19,113
<Laugh>.

250
00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:23,440
I'll sign you up. I I'll be one of
those, um, um, solar energy, uh,

251
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:24,520
door-to-door sales salespeople.

252
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,280
<Laugh> to planet though,
isn't it? Instead.

253
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,720
Instead, instead of having these
on your roof, how about you just,

254
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:34,520
you just look up, actually, um,
that's a really interesting, uh,

255
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:38,440
interesting point as well. Somebody
asked me, um, an astronomer said, well,

256
00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:42,200
isn't this going to cause light pollution?
Is this just going to be another

257
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,720
thing in the sky that's going to get
in the way of my lovely, um, astro,

258
00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:51,000
you know, astronomy and,
and, and photography? Um,

259
00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:56,720
and we are going for something
that is so far away, uh,

260
00:16:56,990 --> 00:17:01,120
that it should not, uh, cause
any light pollution. Mm-hmm.

261
00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:04,600
So we won't see them in
any, but like if I got,

262
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,080
if I pointed a telescope in the right
direction, would I be able to see the,

263
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:09,133
the solar.

264
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,880
Probably if you were looking for it.
Yeah. Um, maybe at certain angles,

265
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:19,400
if it was, if it was shining. Um,
but, uh, but on the whole note,

266
00:17:19,570 --> 00:17:24,160
we're trying to be Yeah.
Uh, discreet. Yeah.

267
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,920
With this one, yeah. But I don't
want to ruin the night sky, but.

268
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,760
This, right, there's this one, but
may, if this works right, then this,

269
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:32,680
this is a really good solution. And maybe,

270
00:17:33,650 --> 00:17:37,330
maybe we need 150, a.

271
00:17:37,530 --> 00:17:39,570
Thousand maybe. And, and,

272
00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:43,930
and as the technology for beaming these

273
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,480
vast amounts of power, um, gets better,
if we can beam them further and further,

274
00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:54,880
uh, then we could send things
further away. Thus, you know,

275
00:17:55,060 --> 00:17:58,560
not having the, uh, the space space
junk, I mean, it wouldn't, it would,

276
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,880
it would eventually be space junk, um,
that we would have to retrieve and,

277
00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:05,360
and d orbit. Um, but as part of, um,

278
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,520
European Space Agency has a clean
space initiative, and that is the,

279
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,960
anything that we're
sending up to space, uh,

280
00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:15,120
we need to think about the whole
lifecycle, cradle to grave, um,

281
00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:18,800
so that we're not adding to Yeah. The

282
00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:25,760
vast amount of, uh, of space
junk that is floating up there.

283
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,560
'cause it is, it is a real problem.
Yeah. Especially for human exploration.

284
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,240
If we want to go out there,
we don't wanna be dodging.

285
00:18:32,890 --> 00:18:34,160
Solar farms. <laugh>. No,

286
00:18:35,100 --> 00:18:37,600
you're quite nice to plug your
spaceship in though to the,

287
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,400
to the solar farm as
you were going. Can you.

288
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,640
Imagine like a little welcome break
for your, uh, if you orbiter, that'd.

289
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,960
Be amazing. I mean, so, but solar
power is nothing new in space, right?

290
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,320
There's plenty of spacecraft
is powered by solar energy.

291
00:18:50,510 --> 00:18:53,800
Sure. And, and, and this isn't, this isn't
a new concept at all. I mean, if you,

292
00:18:53,940 --> 00:18:58,560
you could even think of this as a huge
telecommunication satellite, um, it's,

293
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:03,360
it's still sending energy, it's sending
information, but it's just, yeah,

294
00:19:03,550 --> 00:19:05,800
it's just a different,
different utilization. Okay.

295
00:19:06,220 --> 00:19:10,600
So you talk about the
feasibility studies, um, as a,

296
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:12,200
but how do people get involved in that?

297
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:13,560
Is that something people get involved in?

298
00:19:14,540 --> 00:19:19,080
Um, so the feasibility, um, is
currently underway with industry.

299
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,720
We have selected our
industrial partners to, uh,

300
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,760
a couple of industrial partners
actually, to, um, to, to,

301
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,760
to do the feasibility and
also, um, d design. Uh, so,

302
00:19:28,940 --> 00:19:33,920
so actually putting plans for the
architecture, um, to us, for us to review,

303
00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:37,480
um, to see if they make
sense. Um, but for,

304
00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:42,280
for getting involved on the
research side, um, we have this, uh,

305
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:45,720
have this announcement of
opportunity on our website, um,

306
00:19:46,050 --> 00:19:50,280
which is specifically
soliciting for, um, ideas,

307
00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:53,320
uh, to help us better understand, um,

308
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:58,120
the effects that the microwave
radiation could have on, um,

309
00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:03,240
humans, animals, plants, um, atmosphere,

310
00:20:03,370 --> 00:20:06,400
atmosphere and uh, and
infrastructure itself.

311
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:10,920
If people who are maybe not
necessarily research scientists,

312
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,200
but want to know more about
what's happening at Eissa,

313
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,160
is there anything they can do?

314
00:20:15,310 --> 00:20:19,840
Well, we have something very
exciting coming up. Um, uh,

315
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:23,440
in October we will have
our annual open day. Um,

316
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:27,680
this is taking place weekend of
seventh and 8th of October. Uh,

317
00:20:28,020 --> 00:20:31,400
and this is where we open our doors to
the general public and they let people

318
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,080
like me out of their cages
to come and speak, to speak,

319
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,600
to speak to you about, uh, anything
that you want to know about space. Um,

320
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,760
I also want to draw particular attention
to the event that we're hosting on the

321
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,320
seventh that is specifically
for, um, people, uh,

322
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,520
with disabilities. So this
is, um, exclusively, um,

323
00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:58,080
exclusively inclusive <laugh>
<laugh>. So, so this is, uh, yeah,

324
00:20:58,150 --> 00:21:03,000
just a going to be a quiet day
because the open day itself can be a

325
00:21:03,020 --> 00:21:07,000
bit of a challenge. If you need, for
example, mobility aids to get around site,

326
00:21:07,470 --> 00:21:10,480
lots of people in a small space might
not be an easy thing to, to navigate.

327
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:14,880
So we have this, uh, special day on
the 7th of October, which is, um, uh,

328
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,000
for folk with disabilities
to come along and meet us.

329
00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:21,840
And then on the eighth we have the
general open day. So same again, um,

330
00:21:22,030 --> 00:21:23,440
just a bit busier.

331
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:28,120
And that is over in Nord
Vike in the Netherlands, um,

332
00:21:28,340 --> 00:21:32,680
not far from, from Amsterdam. Um, and
it's free to free to come along. Uh,

333
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,720
you just need to go to our website,
um, and the links are all there and,

334
00:21:35,740 --> 00:21:37,400
and you can, you can
sign up there for free.

335
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:46,400
Just as the sun always
shines in space on earth,

336
00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:51,000
the tides are a potentially
never ending source of power.

337
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,280
Tidal stream energy is a way of harnessing
the energy from the daily ebb and

338
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,920
flow of the ocean's tides,
which as you'll know,

339
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:05,320
is primarily driven by the gravitational
pull of the moon on the earth.

340
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:06,840
Here's Danny Coles,

341
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:11,320
a research fellow at the University of
Plymouth working on the Tiger Project.

342
00:22:11,650 --> 00:22:16,280
Tiger is title stream industry
Energizer project, a, uh,

343
00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:21,840
almost 50 million Euro
project involving universities

344
00:22:22,380 --> 00:22:26,480
and industry and development
agencies in the UK and France.

345
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:28,333
And really,

346
00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:33,560
tiger is designed to try and
accelerate thet stream energy sector.

347
00:22:34,340 --> 00:22:39,200
Um, and so it's a huge
amount of collaboration going
on between academics and

348
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,880
industry partners in order to, you
know, get turbines into the water,

349
00:22:44,820 --> 00:22:45,580
um,

350
00:22:45,580 --> 00:22:50,360
get sensors into the water that can
allow us to better understand the

351
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,400
tal characteristics and tal flows,

352
00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:57,440
and also to drive cost
reduction and better understand
cost reduction within the

353
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:57,690
sector,

354
00:22:57,690 --> 00:23:01,800
which ultimately is gonna get us to a
point where tidal stream can deliver,

355
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,440
um, you know, sort of electricity that is,

356
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,760
that is affordable and provides
system benefits as well.

357
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,960
I think that my main question really
about Talal energy is why don't we have it

358
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,000
already? Yeah.

359
00:23:13,540 --> 00:23:17,640
That's, that's a question a lot of
people ask, and I think if we take the,

360
00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:19,840
the sort of selection of
renewables, if you like,

361
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,600
that we have in the UK
specifically, um, solar and wind, i,

362
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,280
I sort of see as the low hanging fruit,

363
00:23:26,910 --> 00:23:31,680
they're the cheapest to develop in
those initial stages. Um, so, you know,

364
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,480
from sort of 20 years ago or so,

365
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,200
30 years ago that they started getting
developed and obviously because onshore

366
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:39,720
wind and then solar as well is,

367
00:23:40,220 --> 00:23:44,240
is more easily accessible because
it's installed on land, um,

368
00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:46,720
that makes it cheaper. And so it's, it's,

369
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,520
that's why I say it's
the low hanging fruit,

370
00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:53,120
but what we're seeing now is that now
that we've brought on a lot of solar and

371
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,200
wind onto the system, and we'll
obviously need to continue doing that,

372
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:57,840
and rightly so. Um,

373
00:23:57,910 --> 00:24:02,400
that does also provide additional
challenges as well. Um,

374
00:24:02,430 --> 00:24:07,240
when it comes to things like, um,
balancing supply with demand, for example.

375
00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:11,800
So obviously the sun doesn't always
shine and the wind doesn't always blow.

376
00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:15,680
And actually what we're seeing from
a research perspective is that by

377
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,280
diversifying the different types of
technology that we are using to generate

378
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:25,080
clean electricity, we can actually
enhance supply demand balancing.

379
00:24:25,660 --> 00:24:28,840
So, you know, when the wind doesn't
blow or the sun doesn't shine,

380
00:24:29,390 --> 00:24:34,200
then maybe tidal energy or wave
energy or whatever else can pick up

381
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:38,240
that sort of shortfall in order
to make sure that we're, you know,

382
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:39,240
balancing our system.

383
00:24:39,580 --> 00:24:42,200
How does this tidal stream
system work then? You know,

384
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:43,800
compared to using the waves? So.

385
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,240
Tidal stream energy is effectively like
putting a, a wind turbine underwater.

386
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:52,240
And so, you know, when the tide
comes in and out every day,

387
00:24:52,260 --> 00:24:54,880
as you see if you visit
the beach or something, um,

388
00:24:55,580 --> 00:24:59,400
the flow of water over
those blade turbine blades,

389
00:24:59,790 --> 00:25:04,520
it's rotating the blades and that turns
a generator to create electricity.

390
00:25:05,580 --> 00:25:09,640
Now that's very different to
wave technologies that, uh,

391
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:12,480
are using the sort of up and
down motion, if you like,

392
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,560
of the waves in order
to generate electricity.

393
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:19,320
And that can be done in different
waves. Um, so for example,

394
00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,440
one approach is to use an
oscillating water column, um,

395
00:25:23,450 --> 00:25:26,160
which is essentially a cylinder, um,

396
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:31,240
that uses the wave motion to
pump air through a turbine,

397
00:25:32,180 --> 00:25:34,200
and, and that again,
generates electricity.

398
00:25:34,620 --> 00:25:39,320
So they're two very
different technologies. Um,
and we see that also the,

399
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:40,440
the way that the,

400
00:25:40,590 --> 00:25:44,320
that the generation is affected
by the resource is also different.

401
00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:45,400
So with tidal,

402
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:50,160
we see these four periods
of tidal generation per day
as the tide comes in and

403
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,000
out twice a day, especially around the
uk. Whereas with wave, what happens,

404
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:58,800
generally speaking, the waves
is created by the wind. Um,

405
00:25:59,140 --> 00:26:03,800
and so what we'd see if we had a wind
turbine installed next to a wave device is

406
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,520
that the wind would start generated,

407
00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:07,960
the wind turbine would start
generating electricity first,

408
00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:12,240
and then the wave resource sort of
lags the, the, the wind resource.

409
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:16,200
So that that would come later. And
again, as I alluded to earlier,

410
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,360
that that sort of provides those system
benefits because it helps fill the gaps,

411
00:26:20,460 --> 00:26:24,160
if you like, because of the
intermittency of, of renewable power. So.

412
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:28,280
With the tide or turbines, is that
working in the same way that a, uh,

413
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,960
a wind turbine is working on land?

414
00:26:30,140 --> 00:26:32,800
Do they have to be much
stronger to be in the sea? Yeah.

415
00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:34,800
So yeah, exactly. So there's some, some,

416
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:37,800
some similarities and differences
if you like. So yeah, if,

417
00:26:37,820 --> 00:26:41,360
if you were to look at a, a tidal stream
turbine, generally speaking, they,

418
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:45,760
they look broadly similar in that
they have sort of two or three blades.

419
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:49,560
They're, um, orientated
sort of horizontally. Their,

420
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,800
their axis is horizontal to
the, to the flow direction. Um,

421
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,980
but, but, but yeah, the difference,

422
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,820
the main difference at the moment is
that tidal turbines can be significantly

423
00:27:00,890 --> 00:27:02,940
smaller than wind turbines. And,

424
00:27:02,940 --> 00:27:07,700
and the reason for that is that
the water is significantly more

425
00:27:07,710 --> 00:27:10,820
dense than, than the wind or the air. Um,

426
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:16,140
and so it's actually possible
to, to extract, um, a,

427
00:27:16,300 --> 00:27:21,100
a significant amount of energy
from a tidal flow, um, using a,

428
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:22,533
a sort of, well,

429
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,260
the scale of these things are sort
of roughly 20 meter diameter rotors,

430
00:27:26,530 --> 00:27:30,700
whereas wind turbines are getting far
in excess of a hundred meters. Um,

431
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,380
so that's one difference. Um,

432
00:27:32,450 --> 00:27:35,980
what we're seeing with tidal also is
that you can either connect the tidal

433
00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:40,460
turbine to the seabed sort of in
a similar way to you do with a,

434
00:27:40,540 --> 00:27:41,373
a wind turbine,

435
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,660
or what we're also seeing now is
floating tidal stream turbines.

436
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,620
So it's essentially a, a,

437
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,220
a sort of almost like a big
cylinder that floats on the,

438
00:27:51,220 --> 00:27:55,140
on the free surface of the water.
And then the turbine or turbines,

439
00:27:55,140 --> 00:27:59,500
sometimes there's multiple turbines
connected to a floating structure are, um,

440
00:27:59,610 --> 00:28:01,300
just underneath. Um,

441
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,180
and that has some benefits when it
comes to access to the turbine. Um, if,

442
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,780
for example, there needs to be some
maintenance done or you know, that,

443
00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:12,540
that sort of thing, um, that
it's far easier to access the,

444
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,860
the components by floating the device.

445
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:19,260
And it's the tide, the, the, the amount
of energy that's generated by the tides,

446
00:28:19,260 --> 00:28:23,500
is that a constant thing or is
it d does it ebb and flow? Sorry.

447
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:26,380
To stop. No, no, no. Yeah, so
you're absolutely right. So yeah,

448
00:28:26,380 --> 00:28:30,260
there are different types of sort of
tidal behavior that are important to

449
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:35,380
consider. Um, so the first
one is, is the flood and ebb.

450
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,940
So the, the change in direction of the
flow, um, that happens on a sort of,

451
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,500
uh, what sort of six
hour, um, cycle. Um, and,

452
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,460
and you know, you get a flood tide
that comes in, um, and then that's, uh,

453
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,060
the, the tide then changes direction
and we call that slack tide,

454
00:28:53,310 --> 00:28:57,380
where there's not really much flow
speed, you know, in that period at all.

455
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,540
And then the direction changes, and then
we get the air tide that comes out. Um,

456
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,020
and then there's also spring
neat cycles. So spring tides are,

457
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,980
um, are when the, the sun and the
moon are aligned with the earth.

458
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,020
Um, and because of that, the gravitational
force of the sun and the moon,

459
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,340
uh, combining, um, we see,
uh, significantly higher, um,

460
00:29:22,810 --> 00:29:26,300
sort of tidal range or,
um, in, in those periods,

461
00:29:26,770 --> 00:29:31,300
whereas in, um, ne tides, the sun,

462
00:29:31,570 --> 00:29:34,980
moon and earth are, are not aligned. Um,

463
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,820
and so the gravitational force is
no longer sort of combined together.

464
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,920
And for that reason, um, the tidal
range becomes, is, is reduced.

465
00:29:44,270 --> 00:29:48,520
Near where I live. And indeed where the
physics world offices are in Bristol,

466
00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:51,280
in the southwest of England
is the seven estuary,

467
00:29:51,450 --> 00:29:54,680
which has the second largest
tidal range in the world.

468
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,800
I wondered if that sort of range makes
any difference to this tidal stream.

469
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,720
There's important distinction to make
there between tidal stream technology and

470
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,160
tidal range technology. Um,

471
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:11,760
so tidal stream turbine sort of, I
say using the, the, the stream of,

472
00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:15,800
of, of tidal flow in order to turn
a turbine to, to turn a generator,

473
00:30:16,150 --> 00:30:20,800
whereas a tidal range
scheme is, is using the,

474
00:30:20,820 --> 00:30:24,920
the height difference, um, of the
tide in order to generate. And,

475
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,560
and how that works with the
barrage there is that the wall,

476
00:30:28,780 --> 00:30:32,920
the tidal flow comes in
through the barrage wall, um,

477
00:30:32,980 --> 00:30:36,840
and then the barrage wall is sort of
closed, so no more flow can get through.

478
00:30:37,420 --> 00:30:37,740
Um,

479
00:30:37,740 --> 00:30:42,720
and then as the tide changes and
the tidal height reduces outside of

480
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,160
the barrage, um,

481
00:30:44,380 --> 00:30:48,640
the water within the barrage is released
and that turns a turbine to generate

482
00:30:48,730 --> 00:30:51,640
power. So they're quite two
quite different technologies,

483
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:56,400
but generally speaking, with
a tidal stream turbine, um,

484
00:30:56,950 --> 00:31:01,800
devices that are installed at the
moment are roughly about 1.5 megawatts,

485
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:03,160
uh, in capacity.

486
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:08,160
So you can compare that to sort of the
largest wind offshore wind turbines,

487
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,000
which are now sort of 15 megawatts
if you like. So we see technologies,

488
00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:15,880
um, smaller, um, but,

489
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,600
but there's now work being done to
increase the scale of these tidal stream

490
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,760
turbines, um, in order to
achieve more energy per turbine.

491
00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:28,720
And that helps reduce the cost of
energy through economies of scale. Um,

492
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,120
a single turbine typical turbine that's
installed in the water at the moment,

493
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:35,170
um,

494
00:31:35,170 --> 00:31:40,000
would be expected to power
approximately 1,500 homes over

495
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,120
a year. So yeah, so it is a,

496
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,640
it is a significant amount of
electricity being generated.

497
00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:47,200
So if you, if they were
literally hooked up to that,

498
00:31:47,550 --> 00:31:49,840
they wouldn't need anything
else for the entire year.

499
00:31:50,390 --> 00:31:54,480
Well, so there's some caveats
to this <laugh>. Yeah. Um,

500
00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:55,880
in that, you know,

501
00:31:55,910 --> 00:32:00,320
obviously the tide is not
always generating when you need

502
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,320
electricity, for example. And,

503
00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:06,080
and so a lot of the work we're doing
at the university at the moment is, is,

504
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,280
is looking at trying to understand
how you could combine energy storage,

505
00:32:10,460 --> 00:32:15,280
for example, with a tidal stream turbine
or tidal stream turbines in order to,

506
00:32:15,460 --> 00:32:18,960
um, help match supply with demand, um,

507
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,240
continuously throughout the year. But,
but realistically, yes, we'll need a,

508
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,320
a wide range of technologies, wind,
solar, tidal wave, and, you know,

509
00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:28,400
geothermal and,

510
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,200
and nuclear and all those things in
order to ensure that we can match

511
00:32:33,220 --> 00:32:37,840
supply with demand every single second
of every single year, you know? Um, and,

512
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,360
and that's a real challenge moving
forward given that renewables are an

513
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,720
intermittent source of, of, of energy.

514
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,840
Tidal stream energy is more
consistent than wind energy.

515
00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:51,800
Yeah, exactly. And it's
predictable as well.

516
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:56,120
So we know exactly when a tidal stream
turbine will be generating, you know,

517
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,720
even a hundred years from now,
we could say at this time,

518
00:32:58,880 --> 00:32:59,760
a hundred years from now,

519
00:33:00,220 --> 00:33:03,280
how much power would we expect the
tidal turbine to be generating?

520
00:33:03,820 --> 00:33:08,560
And that's really important when it
comes to things like designing the grid

521
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,160
system for the future and how much storage
we'll need and all of those sorts of

522
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,080
questions because we already know how
much power would be generated at any given

523
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,040
moment in time. Um, and so yes,

524
00:33:21,060 --> 00:33:25,360
it becomes much more compatible
with energy storage, um,

525
00:33:25,540 --> 00:33:29,840
and much more compatible with things like
demand response as well where you can

526
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,720
shift your demand to when the electricity
is being generated by a renewable

527
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:35,330
source.

528
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:37,000
We'll return to dunny
later in the podcast,

529
00:33:37,460 --> 00:33:42,400
but of course there are concerns about
putting any kind of machinery into the

530
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,040
marine environment.
Here's Douglas Gillespie.

531
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:49,780
I work at the Sea mammal research
units at the University of St. Andrews,

532
00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:55,060
although the, um, the units dominated
biologists and we're studying biology,

533
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,020
my background is actually in physics,

534
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,820
so I specialize in making underwater
tracking systems for marine

535
00:34:02,930 --> 00:34:05,980
mammals, mostly using passive acoustics.

536
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,180
So that's picking up the sounds that
animals make when they're foraging,

537
00:34:09,540 --> 00:34:13,660
communicating, et cetera, and
using those sounds to track,

538
00:34:14,220 --> 00:34:17,860
identify and monitor the
behavior of animals underwater.

539
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,420
But recently, some new active
sonar tools have become available,

540
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:25,900
which were becoming
increasingly reliant on,

541
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:30,100
particularly for studying animals which
don't vocalize very much in UK waters

542
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:35,020
such as some species of seals. So
there's two seal species in UK waters.

543
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:39,180
There's um, gray seals
and harbor seals and yeah,

544
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:41,420
they're pretty much all
around the UK coasts.

545
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,620
But certainly in the case of harbor seals,

546
00:34:43,620 --> 00:34:45,740
the populations have been
declining in recent years.

547
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:51,120
So they are of conservation
concern and um,

548
00:34:52,270 --> 00:34:53,800
it's very important to us to,

549
00:34:55,700 --> 00:34:59,040
as we introduce sort of new technologies
into the marine environment,

550
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:03,560
our kind of role as the sort of national
marine mammal lab in many ways is to

551
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,840
try to understand how animals are
interacting with these devices.

552
00:35:09,020 --> 00:35:13,640
So some research that colleagues have
done on wind farms has actually been shown

553
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,000
a very positive effect in the animals
appear to be foraging around the

554
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,840
foundations of the wind farms, but
of course with tidal energy devices.

555
00:35:22,220 --> 00:35:24,120
And they look like a kind of short squat,

556
00:35:24,830 --> 00:35:28,440
wind turbine mounted on the sea
floor that, that of course got,

557
00:35:28,510 --> 00:35:30,640
have got moving parts underwater.

558
00:35:31,300 --> 00:35:35,480
So just as some birds do
get killed by wind turbines,

559
00:35:35,710 --> 00:35:39,800
there's of course a risk that marine
mammals and obviously fish species and any

560
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:44,400
animal moving in that environment could
be hinged or killed by the moving parts

561
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,680
of a turbine. Now I,

562
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,480
I won't even put my neck out and say
whether we think that's likely or not,

563
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,920
but our job is certainly to study that
and find out how animals are moving

564
00:35:54,140 --> 00:35:55,680
around these devices. And.

565
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,200
What are you finding? What can
you tell me that you're finding?

566
00:35:58,600 --> 00:35:59,960
I can't tell you where
that's a tricky one.

567
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:03,920
We're moving towards publishing this stuff
in the next few months and we've got,

568
00:36:04,610 --> 00:36:08,990
so we've just finished a data
collection period where we monitored

569
00:36:10,030 --> 00:36:15,030
a, an operational title turbine off
the north coast of Scotland for,

570
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:19,030
for a 12 month period
operating 24 hours a day

571
00:36:20,010 --> 00:36:21,970
with, you know, multi-beam,

572
00:36:21,970 --> 00:36:25,210
active sonar mounted on a
platform close to the turbine.

573
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:30,970
And we have detected a lot of seal
tracks going quite close to the turbine.

574
00:36:32,030 --> 00:36:36,770
And we're currently just in the final
stages of analyzing how those tracks

575
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,570
move relative to the
turbine raters. No, I can't,

576
00:36:40,610 --> 00:36:44,810
I can't tell you any more than that at
the moment because we really are just at

577
00:36:44,810 --> 00:36:47,210
the stage as in all
research, you know, some,

578
00:36:47,210 --> 00:36:51,690
this is novel devices and a novel
environment and yeah, we're,

579
00:36:51,690 --> 00:36:55,410
we're learning how to use these things
and we're in the process of sitting

580
00:36:55,410 --> 00:36:58,850
around the computer screen staring at
these things thinking what are the metrics

581
00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:03,210
and what are the parameters and how do
we turn these kind of pictures of tracks

582
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:07,640
into kind of good, um,

583
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:09,080
good sort of repeatable science.

584
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:13,600
So we're sort of looking at the initial
trajectory of the animals relative to

585
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,400
the turbine blades. Are
they swimming towards them?

586
00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:20,800
Are they swimming across them?
We're looking at changes in um,

587
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:24,040
changes in behavior, obviously
in response to the turbine.

588
00:37:24,420 --> 00:37:28,320
Is there a sudden change in the
angle that they're swimming at?

589
00:37:28,820 --> 00:37:32,800
But then a lot of it's just the
kind of boring sorting out the data.

590
00:37:33,020 --> 00:37:37,200
So I just got sent a massive spreadsheet
of title data from the turbine company

591
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:38,033
yesterday.

592
00:37:38,260 --> 00:37:42,840
So obviously our sonars are
giving movement of animals
relative to the ground.

593
00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:44,020
We can,

594
00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:48,320
we now need to calculate movement to the
animals relative to the water to see if

595
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,360
they're actively swimming or
drifting and relative to the turbine.

596
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:56,680
So we're kind of in the
process of bringing all these
data sets together and you

597
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,000
know, we'll have
publications ready I hope,

598
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:01,880
in over the next six
months and I'll be very,

599
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,800
very happy to share them
with you when they're there.

600
00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:07,920
But at the moment I genuinely dunno
what the results are yet. So <laugh>.

601
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,220
<Laugh>.

602
00:38:09,220 --> 00:38:10,560
But we, we do see tracks.

603
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:13,800
Okay. But they, they will tell you the,

604
00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:18,120
the behavior of these
mammals, seals, es, et cetera,

605
00:38:18,610 --> 00:38:21,680
based on your measurements.
You won't need to, for example,

606
00:38:21,860 --> 00:38:23,800
put cameras in there
to actually observe it.

607
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,240
You'll be able to know what they're
doing from the data that you're getting.

608
00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:27,613
No,

609
00:38:36,430 --> 00:38:39,450
the easiest analogy is you get something
that looks very like a radar image

610
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:43,000
outta it. So you've got,

611
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:47,880
they work out to about a 50 meter range
like and most people are familiar with a

612
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,560
radar which is looking at
360 degrees all around you.

613
00:38:50,610 --> 00:38:55,280
These are looking at over an angle
of about 120 degrees, 120 degrees,

614
00:38:55,860 --> 00:38:58,840
so a good cut of wide wedge
of data around the turbine.

615
00:38:59,660 --> 00:39:02,640
And within that they give us the
positions of animals to actually a few

616
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,040
centimeters accuracy. So you
can see the shape of the animal,

617
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,080
you can see its swim behavior and
that all helps identify to species.

618
00:39:10,060 --> 00:39:13,960
And you know, they collect data at a
rate of about 10 frames per second.

619
00:39:15,060 --> 00:39:18,240
So you end up with something which
looks very much like a video of animal

620
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,920
movements around the turbine. So
it's very, very fine scale data.

621
00:39:22,460 --> 00:39:26,400
Cam cameras underwater are notoriously
difficult to use just 'cause the water's

622
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,000
so murky that you generally
only get a range of a few meters

623
00:39:31,340 --> 00:39:32,173
if you're lucky.

624
00:39:33,180 --> 00:39:37,160
And obviously we've got turbine
blades at about 20 meters across.

625
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,920
I think they're 18 meters in diameter
though people are talking about putting

626
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,880
larger ones in.

627
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:46,960
So we're monitoring out to a range
of about 55 meters at the moment,

628
00:39:47,130 --> 00:39:50,120
which gives us quite good
coverage around the turbine,

629
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:52,920
whereas cameras just
wouldn't be able to do that.

630
00:39:53,870 --> 00:39:58,480
And of course Scotland in winter, you
know, you haven't got a hope really.

631
00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,673
<Laugh>.

632
00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:03,040
You're gonna remember also we're working
in some of the fiercest title currents

633
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,620
in the world. So it's incredibly
difficult to work there.

634
00:40:06,620 --> 00:40:11,580
You can't put down all of our marine
operations that I'm with remote

635
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:12,460
vehicles, you know,

636
00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:17,700
robotic vehicles and quite large ships
that can work in that environment.

637
00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:19,660
It's a ridiculously hard place to work.

638
00:40:20,290 --> 00:40:24,180
Okay, so there's, there is some
research that's been uh, published,

639
00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:25,380
which I just,

640
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,780
the title of this Harbor Porus presence
is reduced during tidal turbine

641
00:40:29,780 --> 00:40:31,140
operation. Can you tell me about that?

642
00:40:32,090 --> 00:40:35,860
Yeah, that's right. So, well we've been
working with the tidal turbine company,

643
00:40:36,850 --> 00:40:41,180
have got four sort of turbines in or
up to four turbines in on the north of

644
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:43,980
Scotland since about 2016.

645
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,060
And the first thing we did was we
installed passive acoustic monitors that's

646
00:40:49,060 --> 00:40:52,940
underwater microphones on the foundation
of one of their turbines. And again,

647
00:40:52,940 --> 00:40:55,100
we operated that for a couple of years.

648
00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:57,180
I think the original plan
was to go for a year,

649
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:01,820
but we kept going for another one
in the pandemic and so they could,

650
00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:05,460
those underwater microphones went and
pick up seals 'cause they very rarely make

651
00:41:05,460 --> 00:41:08,940
any noise underwater. But they're very
good at picking up harbor porpoises.

652
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,740
So harbor porpoise is just a small dolphin
species of which is probably the most

653
00:41:13,740 --> 00:41:18,300
common marine mammal in European
shelf waters. There's thousands,

654
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:19,620
hundreds of thousands out there.

655
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,340
And we could use this array of these
underwater microphones to track

656
00:41:25,340 --> 00:41:28,060
the fine scale movements of
animals around the turbine.

657
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,180
We found two main things.

658
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,040
One was that there were fewer animals
around when the turbine was operating.

659
00:41:35,420 --> 00:41:39,960
So clearly there is some kind of
avoidance response. But we also,

660
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,520
there's a second paper which actually
showed that as well as there being just

661
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,840
fewer animals even coming anywhere
near our microphones when the turbines

662
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,680
operating that the ones which we
did track close to the turbine,

663
00:41:51,260 --> 00:41:52,360
all of them went round it.

664
00:41:52,420 --> 00:41:55,640
And there's quite a strong avoidance
response where they just basically go

665
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,280
around the turbine blades,
which is, you know,

666
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,320
pretty much what you'd expect
an animal to do. In fact,

667
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,240
I think it was in something like
400 or 500 days of monitoring,

668
00:42:05,860 --> 00:42:10,680
we had one animal track that went
clearly through the kind of rotor area,

669
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:13,680
but that happened while
the rotors weren't turning.

670
00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:17,600
So there were obviously of no danger
at that time. So it's a kind of,

671
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:19,040
it's a bit of a funny one. This is,

672
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,800
'cause obviously there's
a general principle,

673
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,440
we don't want to disturb marine mammals,

674
00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:29,560
but this is a case where we
do wanna disturb them a bit
'cause we want to around

675
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,040
<laugh>. So they've gotta get
around the turbine, not through it,

676
00:42:32,380 --> 00:42:34,840
but on the other hand, we don't wanna
disturb them too much, you know,

677
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,720
we don't want them to leave the area
or if this forms an important migration

678
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:40,240
route, you don't want
them to stop using it.

679
00:42:40,420 --> 00:42:45,200
So trying to understand their behavioral
changes that both these scales

680
00:42:45,220 --> 00:42:49,320
is actually quite important.
So, you know, you know,

681
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,600
they're not stupid animals but,

682
00:42:52,060 --> 00:42:54,840
and they can definitely sense
the presence of the turbine,

683
00:42:55,540 --> 00:42:59,200
so you would hope that they would
go around it. But on the other hand,

684
00:43:00,300 --> 00:43:00,560
you know,

685
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,120
these turbines are making a bit of a
natural reef out there and there are

686
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,440
certainly the possibility of fish
aggregating around the foundations.

687
00:43:08,820 --> 00:43:10,360
So again,

688
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:14,560
if there's a kind of cheap meal 'cause
fish are kind of schooling up behind the

689
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:15,350
turbine,

690
00:43:15,350 --> 00:43:19,480
then animals might be quite motivated
to take a risk to go in there to try to

691
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:20,320
forage on those fish.

692
00:43:20,940 --> 00:43:24,000
But all of these things we don't know
and we're trying to answer. Okay.

693
00:43:24,180 --> 00:43:26,720
And are they noisy these
turbines? Do they make a,

694
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,240
a significant noise in the ocean?

695
00:43:28,390 --> 00:43:29,600
Yeah, they're noisy again,

696
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,550
they're not so noisy that they're gonna
damage the hearing of a marine mammal,

697
00:43:34,970 --> 00:43:36,870
but they're a big bit
of machinery. And again,

698
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:38,430
anyone can experience this for themselves.

699
00:43:38,430 --> 00:43:39,950
You go and walk under a big wind turbine,

700
00:43:40,220 --> 00:43:44,710
there's a big bit of machinery grinding
away and it's, it's not, you know,

701
00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:49,030
necessarily louder than your own car,
but it's, you'll sense that it's there.

702
00:43:49,090 --> 00:43:53,830
And there was a paper published
by colleagues in the LABA open

703
00:43:54,450 --> 00:43:56,910
and they showed that you should be
able to hear these turbines a couple of

704
00:43:56,910 --> 00:43:57,743
kilometers away.

705
00:43:58,940 --> 00:44:02,320
So all Murray mammals have good hearing,

706
00:44:03,060 --> 00:44:07,520
so porpoises and seals would all be able
to sense the presence of that turbine.

707
00:44:08,060 --> 00:44:10,480
And of course all of the cean species,

708
00:44:10,540 --> 00:44:14,040
all of the dolphin species and the
porpoises, they're also echolocating.

709
00:44:14,060 --> 00:44:17,560
So they're using their own kind of sonar
beam to sense the environment around

710
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,360
them. And this will be a very, very big
target for their sonars. So they'll,

711
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,190
they'll know that that turbine
is there, but as I said,

712
00:44:24,190 --> 00:44:26,910
we dunno what motivations
they have to use those areas.

713
00:44:28,510 --> 00:44:32,560
And so if there's cheap food or it's
an important migration route, then,

714
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,960
you know, they might be strongly
motivated to go through there.

715
00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:39,320
But I mean, the noise in the
ocean is a problem anyway, right?

716
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,480
With shipping and things.
Is this just adding to that?

717
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:43,360
It's not significant. No.

718
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,520
I would say the Pendleton ferry that goes
through that site four times a day is

719
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,870
probably making more noise. But it's,

720
00:44:48,930 --> 00:44:52,110
it is not a significant contribution
to noise. No. And again,

721
00:44:52,110 --> 00:44:53,070
it's in this thing where you,

722
00:44:53,070 --> 00:44:56,350
you probably want them to make a bit
of noise just to make sure that animals

723
00:44:56,350 --> 00:44:56,990
know they're there.

724
00:44:56,990 --> 00:45:00,790
The last thing you want is a big
turbine blade moving completely silently

725
00:45:01,340 --> 00:45:04,230
through the environment. The
animals, you know, especially seals,

726
00:45:04,230 --> 00:45:06,470
which they hear, they don't ate,

727
00:45:07,410 --> 00:45:10,790
though I suspect they're very
sensitive to vibration. Um, you,

728
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:12,870
you want 'em to know that this
device is there. So again,

729
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:14,670
a bit of noise is probably a good thing.

730
00:45:14,850 --> 00:45:18,590
So based on the research that
that that's happened, may,

731
00:45:18,590 --> 00:45:20,510
maybe not even the
research that's published,

732
00:45:20,530 --> 00:45:25,190
should I be hopeful that that tidal
turbines are going to be part of our

733
00:45:25,410 --> 00:45:30,070
energy mix in a way that isn't
harmful to the marine environment?

734
00:45:30,530 --> 00:45:31,270
Yes, I,

735
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:34,150
I think of all the things we've done to
the marine environment over the years,

736
00:45:34,940 --> 00:45:36,670
over the, over the last
couple of centuries,

737
00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:39,510
especially since basically
since we invented propellers,

738
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,270
we've been injuring whales and dolphins
and for some species in some areas

739
00:45:45,380 --> 00:45:47,150
that is a very significant problem.

740
00:45:47,650 --> 00:45:50,350
So I've done a lot of
work on North Atlantic,

741
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:55,030
right whales in my life and
there's a remnant population. Yeah,

742
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:57,150
they're decimated by whaling and um,

743
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:01,230
there's a remnant population of a few
hundred animals and they seem to favor

744
00:46:01,230 --> 00:46:04,310
living very close to the shipping lanes
on the east coast of the United States.

745
00:46:05,010 --> 00:46:07,500
And there's a possibility that, you know,

746
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:10,380
animals are being killed every
year through collisions with ships,

747
00:46:10,570 --> 00:46:12,180
they're being injured by propellers,

748
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,380
as are other sort of endangered
populations around the world.

749
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,780
And this is a problem. So

750
00:46:19,510 --> 00:46:24,490
how much tide energy
kind of contributes to

751
00:46:24,490 --> 00:46:28,540
those pressures is, is what we're
trying to study at the moment.

752
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,340
And it's possible that there's areas
where you just shouldn't build tidal

753
00:46:34,380 --> 00:46:38,150
turbines maybe, and there's possible
that there are areas there aren't,

754
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:42,270
but we can't say we're doing the research
to try to find out at the moment.

755
00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:47,520
But again, that's not
ultimately, you know,

756
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,120
you change from being a scientist who's
there to provide information and also to

757
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:53,400
provide mitigation strategies.

758
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,360
So we're looking at automatic
detection strategies using, again,

759
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:57,520
passive and active sonar,

760
00:46:57,770 --> 00:47:02,400
which could potentially slow or shut
down a turbine or plant an alerting sound

761
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,280
which could encourage animals to
move away. So we're looking at a,

762
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,880
is there a problem? B, can
we mitigate against it?

763
00:47:09,380 --> 00:47:13,480
But then ultimately that is up to
our governments and our regulators to

764
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,700
decide what the, um,

765
00:47:19,870 --> 00:47:22,330
decide on the sort of relative
costs of these things. You know,

766
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,810
what is the most important,

767
00:47:23,830 --> 00:47:26,610
if it is having a serious impact
on a marine mammal population,

768
00:47:26,610 --> 00:47:30,400
what is the most important, the clean
energy or the marine mammal population?

769
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:35,240
And that's a sort a societal question
about most human activities. And yes,

770
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:38,120
I've got my opinion, but
that's my private opinion,

771
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,480
which is no more valid than yours
or any other person who gets to

772
00:47:43,070 --> 00:47:44,880
turn up at the polling
stations on the voting day.

773
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,200
A lot of it comes down to good
governance, <laugh>, you know, again,

774
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:53,360
you one person's good government will
be one that allows the industry one's,

775
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,280
one will be one that protects the
marine mammals. So, but quite honestly,

776
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:56,560
you know,

777
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,760
the threats to marine mammals from climate
change are so vast and that's coming

778
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:02,160
down the tracks really fast.

779
00:48:02,180 --> 00:48:07,120
If you look at the recent warming
of our ocean and what that's gonna

780
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,360
do to some of the prey species that
marine mammals are dependent on,

781
00:48:10,750 --> 00:48:14,360
they're the big threats to our marine
mammal populations and they're the things

782
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:19,240
that are gonna really seriously change
their distribution and the viability of

783
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,080
some populations. So

784
00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:27,580
you do have to be a little bit careful
about overprotecting in one area

785
00:48:27,650 --> 00:48:31,980
when actually is stopping humanity dealing
with the biggest problem that we've

786
00:48:31,980 --> 00:48:35,700
faced in a long, long time. So, but again,

787
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:38,460
that's hopefully what governments are
there for is to make those decisions.

788
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,900
As the oceans warm on our planet.

789
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,900
And sea levels rise conditions
which bring about tropical cyclones,

790
00:48:47,270 --> 00:48:48,780
hurricanes, and typhoons,

791
00:48:48,990 --> 00:48:53,900
which carry higher wind speeds and
more rain are likely to be more

792
00:48:54,180 --> 00:48:56,940
prevalent around the globe.
I wondered how these storms,

793
00:48:57,090 --> 00:48:59,700
whether increasing or
even staying as they are,

794
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,980
are a concern for tidal stream
turbines. Here's Danny Coles again.

795
00:49:05,450 --> 00:49:09,180
Yeah, so, so certainly, um, from
an engineering perspective, um,

796
00:49:09,370 --> 00:49:12,860
designing the turbines for these
sort of extreme cases, you know,

797
00:49:12,860 --> 00:49:16,140
where you have large, very large waves
coming through is a real challenge.

798
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:17,940
And trying to just to
even understand, you know,

799
00:49:17,940 --> 00:49:22,220
what is the loading on a tidal turbine
in those, in those conditions is,

800
00:49:22,220 --> 00:49:25,700
is is challenging in itself. Um, you know,

801
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:28,900
so I guess going back to the
design of the turbine, um,

802
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:33,340
I was talking earlier about floating
devices versus devices that are put on the

803
00:49:33,340 --> 00:49:37,740
seabed. You know, obviously that's a
a, a bigger consideration I guess for,

804
00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:38,120
for the,

805
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,380
for the floating devices in that
they're more directly affected by those,

806
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:45,140
those surface waves. But, but also it,

807
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:47,660
it is a very serious
consideration for the,

808
00:49:47,660 --> 00:49:51,300
for the devices on the
seabed as well. Um, so yeah,

809
00:49:51,300 --> 00:49:54,820
there's a lot of work going into that
in order to design for these sort of,

810
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,500
you know, 50 year wave sort of things. Um,

811
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,340
so I can't really sort of comment more
than that in the, I'm sort of not,

812
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,460
not really on that side of it,
but, um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

813
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,460
I'm certain that that's something
that's very much <laugh> in the,

814
00:50:07,460 --> 00:50:09,380
in the minds of the
designers. Yeah. Where.

815
00:50:09,380 --> 00:50:12,860
Where is the best place for these turbines
to be because you've got the shipping

816
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:15,940
lanes where, where is
the best location for.

817
00:50:16,050 --> 00:50:17,380
With the seabed devices,

818
00:50:18,130 --> 00:50:22,660
there's actually a clearance between the
top of the rotor and the free surface,

819
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,900
you know, top of the water
column, um, that, that,

820
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:30,040
that does allow certain types
of vessel to, to pass over. So,

821
00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:34,520
so that's one way of addressing,
addressing that sort of problem. Um,

822
00:50:34,820 --> 00:50:38,200
the other point to make is that
often the tidal resource is,

823
00:50:38,220 --> 00:50:41,640
is located in sort of
channels where, you know,

824
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,840
the flow is basically being funneled
through sort of narrow constriction that

825
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,760
accelerates the flow and creates
this high energy region. Um,

826
00:50:50,140 --> 00:50:55,040
and in some cases they are the
locations that vessels don't tend to

827
00:50:55,340 --> 00:51:00,000
to navigate. Um, and so, you know,
in some cases that's the case also.

828
00:51:00,420 --> 00:51:01,560
And then in other cases, yeah,

829
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,520
it's gonna have to be a case of sort
of working in collaboration with,

830
00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:11,760
um, sort of n navigation, the
navigation sector if you like,

831
00:51:11,780 --> 00:51:14,880
in terms of understanding, well,
where are these vessels going and,

832
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,280
and how can we work
together in order to, to,

833
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:20,920
to create those necessary
shipping lanes, um,

834
00:51:21,540 --> 00:51:24,760
and respect those shipping mains that
already exist in terms in, in, in,

835
00:51:24,940 --> 00:51:27,920
in order to, to develop
projects side by side. So.

836
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,360
You've just been doing some outreach,

837
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,560
I presume you've done a fair
bit over the time. What, what,

838
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,480
what's the public response
to this sort of thing?

839
00:51:33,550 --> 00:51:36,800
Yeah, I think, uh, really supportive
actually. Um, so yeah, we've been,

840
00:51:36,970 --> 00:51:41,800
we've been doing some outreach at
Green Man Festival in Wales. Um,

841
00:51:42,220 --> 00:51:46,400
we have a stand there, uh, demonstrating
wave tidal and, and wind energy.

842
00:51:47,140 --> 00:51:50,320
Um, and I think in general there's a,
there's a really high level of interest,

843
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,360
especially in wave and tidal in that this,

844
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,360
there's not as much sort of knowledge
about about those two technologies,

845
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,080
obviously wind turbines, everyone's
sort of aware of. Um, and,

846
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,720
and really an acknowledgement
that, you know,

847
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:06,600
we have this incredible resource
around the UK's coastlines, um, and,

848
00:52:06,740 --> 00:52:10,080
and harnessing it seems like
such a, such a sensible and,

849
00:52:10,140 --> 00:52:14,600
and and necessary approach in order to
achieve our net zero goals. So yeah,

850
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:17,720
I think, I think in general the
feedback was great and I think kids,

851
00:52:17,910 --> 00:52:21,520
kids are really interested in,
in these technologies that,

852
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,160
that are really quite innovative.
Um, and so I think there's a real,

853
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,520
a real sort of, um, alignment there in
terms of h h the feedback we've had,

854
00:52:31,980 --> 00:52:34,960
um, and, and where we're taking the
research. So it's really nice to see.

855
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:39,160
When might I be, uh, turning
on my kettle and, and,

856
00:52:39,420 --> 00:52:42,640
and knowing that it's powered
partly by the tides. Yeah.

857
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,960
So there's already tidal stream
turbines installed, uh, in the water,

858
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,000
especially in Scotland.

859
00:52:47,180 --> 00:52:50,400
So there's the European Marine Energy
Center up there that's specifically

860
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,160
designed as a sort of stepping stone
for developers to take their tidal

861
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:56,960
turbines, test them in
real life conditions,

862
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,960
real offshore conditions before then
moving to a commercial project if

863
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,080
you like. Um, and then there's also
the Magen array up in Scotland as well,

864
00:53:06,140 --> 00:53:08,800
that's got four turbines installed, um,

865
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:12,720
and is generating power and has been
doing that for the last sort of, um,

866
00:53:13,220 --> 00:53:14,160
six years or so.

867
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:17,880
A really important sort of step change
that we've seen recently is that

868
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,160
government have now, um, decided to, uh,

869
00:53:21,190 --> 00:53:25,760
provide specific funding subsidy support
for title stream energy projects.

870
00:53:25,820 --> 00:53:29,760
So for example, the project I
mentioned in at Magen that has,

871
00:53:29,830 --> 00:53:31,920
that has attracted subsidy support,

872
00:53:31,950 --> 00:53:35,080
that will mean that more turbines are
gonna be installed in the next sort of

873
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:40,000
four or five years. Um, so in terms
of the installed capacity, uh,

874
00:53:40,060 --> 00:53:44,400
within the UK waters, that's
gonna increase significantly, um,

875
00:53:44,740 --> 00:53:46,400
within those sorts of timescales.

876
00:53:46,460 --> 00:53:50,240
And hopefully what we're hoping is that
government will continue to provide that

877
00:53:50,290 --> 00:53:54,600
level of subsidy support as it's
already done for wind and solar, um,

878
00:53:54,740 --> 00:53:57,360
in order to continue that sort
of acceleration and growth.

879
00:53:57,420 --> 00:54:00,080
Energy security is something that
people are talking a lot about.

880
00:54:00,340 --> 00:54:01,120
It. Uh, I guess,

881
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,040
I guess a good example of this would be
to go back to the start of the energy

882
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,960
crisis back in 2021, um,

883
00:54:08,650 --> 00:54:11,680
where we had a scenario where, um,

884
00:54:12,130 --> 00:54:16,440
there was a significant reduction in
the amount of wind power being generated

885
00:54:16,540 --> 00:54:21,200
around Autumn 2021 as a result of
just the wind not blowing as hard as,

886
00:54:21,220 --> 00:54:23,760
as we expect for that time of year. Um,

887
00:54:24,140 --> 00:54:29,000
and that was combined with really
high electricity prices that were,

888
00:54:29,110 --> 00:54:33,280
were, were from, from imports from
Europe as a result of, you know,

889
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,880
the world coming out of covid, uh,
things getting back up and running again,

890
00:54:37,410 --> 00:54:39,440
those sorts of things. Um,

891
00:54:39,780 --> 00:54:44,240
and what it really highlighted was the
energy security risk that the UK is

892
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,000
facing in other countries as well. Um,

893
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:49,560
and really I suppose where
the research is going,

894
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,280
both from a Tiger perspective and also
the University of Plymouth is, is,

895
00:54:53,300 --> 00:54:57,120
is trying to understand well
by installing tidal turbines,

896
00:54:57,460 --> 00:55:02,360
how does that improve and enhance our
energy security and our energy resilience,

897
00:55:02,540 --> 00:55:03,040
if you like,

898
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,560
against these sort of events that we
know are gonna come up in the future. Uh,

899
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,240
we don't know when and we don't know
how, and we don't dunno by how much,

900
00:55:10,300 --> 00:55:11,720
but we know they will come up.

901
00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:16,600
And so protecting protecting the energy
system in those cases is gonna be really

902
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:17,260
important.

903
00:55:17,260 --> 00:55:21,280
So I think the research is now providing
a really solid evidence base for,

904
00:55:21,340 --> 00:55:22,440
for how it can do that,

905
00:55:22,580 --> 00:55:26,880
by enhancing supply demand and
all of those sorts of things. Um,

906
00:55:27,380 --> 00:55:30,240
and, and that can be a real
benefit to the UK moving forward.

907
00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:33,920
So I think that's where we wanna
take the research further, um,

908
00:55:34,710 --> 00:55:37,600
from a security point of view. Um, and,

909
00:55:37,620 --> 00:55:41,480
and we're seeing that reflected in
government now in terms of their move to a

910
00:55:41,570 --> 00:55:44,600
department for energy
security and net zero, um,

911
00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:48,440
to really sort of acknowledge that this
is something that energy systems of the

912
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:49,600
future need to be designed for.

913
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:51,950
Hmm. Because the Tiger project is.

914
00:55:52,860 --> 00:55:54,630
It's actually, it's coming to an end now,

915
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:57,990
so it's been going for the last four
years and it's coming to an end, uh,

916
00:55:57,990 --> 00:55:59,310
it'll finish it at the end of October.

917
00:56:00,370 --> 00:56:03,030
So we are just at the process
of now sort of, you know,

918
00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:04,910
finish finalizing all the reports and,

919
00:56:05,010 --> 00:56:08,110
and getting everything submitted in
order to, uh, to get that finished off.

920
00:56:08,110 --> 00:56:08,700
Yeah,

921
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:12,350
it's also worth mentioning actually that
the Tiger Project has a website with

922
00:56:12,350 --> 00:56:14,950
all of the outputs from
the project and um,

923
00:56:15,060 --> 00:56:17,630
it's a really good sort
of knowledge base there.

924
00:56:17,690 --> 00:56:19,950
So very much worth checking out. We'll.

925
00:56:19,950 --> 00:56:23,560
Post links to that and everything else
that we've talked about on this episode

926
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:24,960
of the Physics World Stories podcast,

927
00:56:25,790 --> 00:56:30,160
including that opportunity for you to
get involved in that research that the

928
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,640
European Space Agency is doing into the
Solaris project on the physics world

929
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,880
website, physics world.com.

930
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:41,240
You may also be interested to know that
IOP Publishing has recently launched a

931
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,680
new open access journal called
Environmental Research Energy,

932
00:56:45,970 --> 00:56:50,640
which is a new edition to the IPPs
Expanding Environmental Research

933
00:56:50,700 --> 00:56:51,533
Series.

934
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:55,920
And you may also like to know that i o
p publishing have an upcoming conference

935
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,920
called Environmental Research 2023,

936
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,640
a series of free to attend online
events from the 16th of October to the

937
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:09,040
23rd of November that will bring
leading environmental experts together

938
00:57:09,540 --> 00:57:14,120
to exchange knowledge and address
crucial challenges related to the

939
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,640
environment and sustainability. Of course,

940
00:57:16,930 --> 00:57:20,320
we'll share a link to that
on the physics world website.

941
00:57:20,570 --> 00:57:24,800
We'll be back next month when we'll be
bringing you that promised episode on the

942
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,520
International Year of Basic Sciences
for Sustainable Development.

943
00:57:28,860 --> 00:57:30,600
And thank you very much for listening.

944
00:57:35,230 --> 00:57:36,360
Physics World.