Ken Rosenthal: Struggling teams, Inside Konnor Griffin’s long deal negotiations, Umps upset with ABS?

00:00:05
Speaker 1: It's the inside scoop Ken. I took some time, like to really read through your article about the ABS Challenge system and really enjoyed it. I thought, I have so many questions, so I'm going to jump right in here, and let's start with the overall tone that you think is out there right now from the umpires who did agree to the ABS challenge system. Do you think it's more positive or more negative?

00:00:30
Speaker 2: I would say more negative. And it seems to me that not all fans, but some fans, including some of my children, think this is a great thing because it's making the umpires look bad, and it's showing that they aren't great at their jobs, and it's correcting mistakes and all of that. The bottom line is the umpires are grad at their jobs. They're really great at their jobs. But like anybody else, they're human, and they're dealing with pitches that break like never before, are thrown harder than ever before, and their job as plate umpires is more difficult than ever before. So it was written the story with the idea in mind that, hey, these guys are doing a good job, and Baseball's put them in this position, even though of course they did agree to it in collective bargaining where they're kind of getting embarrassed. And part of this was about showing more sympathy to the umpires I feel that should happen, and part of it was just kind of an expanded discussion of ABS and where this is because the other aspect of this is that some umpires believe that this is not such a great thing for the game. And what I mean by that is they believe that there are going to be more walks and that pitchers and catchers eventually are going to get upset and agitated over losing so many strikes, and that's what's happening with the system. So this all remains to be seen whether that actually happens. In many ways, ABS is overwhelmingly positive and I've written that I like it. I do like it, But in talking with some umpires over the last couple of weeks, there have been some concerns raised, and those are valid concerns. And when you're talking about ABS, it's not simply oh, man, I love this, it's great. There are layers to it, and that is what I wanted to get into here, the different layers that are going on.

00:02:22
Speaker 3: Nobody wants to be embarrassed in their job. Do they have any ideas or thoughts about how it could be implemented differently? We still have ABS challenge system to take away the embarrassment part of it, like that they feel like Major League Baseball has kind of put them out on an island, like, oh, you got it wrong and everyone forgets it's by you know, a tenth of an inch.

00:02:48
Speaker 2: Well, the margin for ERA has been an issue with this all along, and the ABS system is not perfect, and I've written about this. Jason Stark has written at length about this, about how there is a margin for ERA that it is accurate to a very high degree but not totally accurate. Guess what umpires are accurate to a very high degree but not totally accurate. So is this better than what we have before? Yeah, in many ways it is. But what the umpires ultimately wanted, or originally wanted, I should say, was the same kind of buffer zone that existed under the previous system before ABS, which was a zone in which a ball could be missed but falling into a given area where they're not penalized for it. Now, in the old days, they were not penalized in their evaluations in this, it would be you're not penalized for missing a call that is maybe within a certain margin for error. Now, the problem with that, according to Major League Baseball, and I see their point here, is that if you have that kind of margin, ferreh, let's play this out a little bit. Pitch is called a ball, and it's actually a strike, but it's within a certain amount let's say a tenth of an inch, and you put it on the screen. It's shown as the strike, but you're giving the umpire the margin for era. Then it's a ball, and people get confused and they get upset. People being fans, you don't want that. I understand that. But at the same time, again, the umpires aren't getting the benefit of the doubt, even on calls that may be correct, but by the machine are shown not to be correct. And that to me is kind of a flaw in the system. I'm not sure it could be corrected. But I got into that in the article as well.

00:04:35
Speaker 3: All Right, one more human element that he brought up kind of in the article talking to I think it was Seth Lugo. Yeah, talking about Seth Lugo and about how Andy Fletcher there was like eleven overturned calls or eleven challenged calls in the game, and they were concerned he was getting upset. This is something that I think I would love to hear what an umpire has to say about, like are they upset in game? Like are you serious you're challenging again? Or is it like a oh, they're feeling bad about themselves. Dang it, I just wish I was better. What's the reaction that you.

00:05:10
Speaker 2: In this particular instance, Lugo related to one of our reporters, Cody Stavenhagen, that he thought the umpire was going to get upset Andy Fletcher, but it turned out Andy Fletcher said, you know what this is? Okay, I'm learning from and I'm learning as we go along. And granted, this is a new system now it's been tried out at TRIPAA and used in spring training, but it's a new system, so there is always going to be with any new toy that's introduced, an adjustment period, and that is what has happened here. There has been an adjustment period and there will continue to be an adjustment period. Some umpires are more comfortable with it than others, and some aren't. We talking about a group of I don't know how many people, but it's a large group. And in any large group, you're gonna have some who are okay with something and some who aren't okay with something, and you're seeing that division of opinion to some extent. I don't know that empires unanimously feel one way about any aspect of this. So for some umpires yet they've seen it as something where okay, it's a different strike zone. That's one of the big issues here, a different strike zone. I've got to adapt to it. I've got to get better at it. And if they challenge and challenge and challenge, that's how I'm going to learn.

00:06:22
Speaker 4: Also, some kind of worrysome about the boss operator. I know you've talked about this a little bit when it comes to umpires too. Can you go over that a little bit and see why umpires are a little mix match on this too as well.

00:06:35
Speaker 2: It was brought to my attention Todd that the people who are matching the strike zones with the hitters, and obviously every hitter has his own strike zone now because it's based on height his height, those people are not all full time employees of Major League Baseball. Some are hourly employees. Now there are hourly employees throughout Major League Baseball. The question a couple of THEMS rays were, well, should hourly employees be in charge of such an important thing and matching those strike zones? And it's the same with pitchclock operators. Some of them are hourly employees as well. It seems we haven't had any controversies along these lines. But again speaking to the concerns of the umpires, and that was one of them that was expressed to me.

00:07:20
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00:07:43
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00:08:20
Speaker 3: Umpires would want umpires to run those, so it's more employment for more umpires. I like that. Good good by them. My question to you is young guys versus old guys. Is there a clear division of guys that have used this in the minor leagues and said, you know what I see, it's very similar to what's happening in the minor leagues. Or is it the you know, quintessential old guys are like, ah, whatever, you know, we don't even I don't even need this.

00:08:48
Speaker 2: I don't know that it's that clear cut. Now, I would assume younger guys are more comfortable because the ones who have come up through the minor leagues have dealt with abs and understand it, understand the strike zone that ABS has introduced, and are just more experienced with it, and you have some older ones who are less experienced and are going to have more problems with it. Some players have expressed that that is their feeling, so that's understandable. And I don't know that it's as simple as this old guy is old school and hates it, this young guy is more progressive and likes it. It's never that simple, but it's probably fair to say that the younger umpires who have experienced with ABS are going to be more comfortable with it.

00:09:33
Speaker 1: It's a great article. I encourage everyone to check it out because it's it's pretty in depth, so you'll learn some things like I didn't even know the whole Boss operator system there Ken, And I'll finish with this. Is it perfect no? Is it going to get better yes? Is it good for the game yes, we're getting more calls right? And is it entertaining yes? So more yes than no. Not a perfect system.

00:09:56
Speaker 2: I would agree with that, Scott. And again, as I point out in the article, I like it, and don't get me wrong, I like it, and I think overall it is good for the game. But it's the job of a journalist to kind of look at all sides of it, and that's all I was trying to do here.

00:10:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was great. We got really good insight from many around the sport. Let's get to another article that you put out this week, the Connor Griffin extension. Yes, this has been talked about for a minute. But the thing is, we also again learn new things from your story. So can you enlighten us on some of the things that you learned and found interesting?

00:10:30
Speaker 2: For me?

00:10:30
Speaker 1: For example, how long it actually took These conversations went on for almost what half a year?

00:10:36
Speaker 2: Yes? They started back in the general managers' meetings in November, so yes, that's about half a year. That was one interesting thing that they were talking about, this deal for a guy with ninety eight played appearances above double above class A excuse me, six months ago. And that's how highly the Pirates thought of Griffin and how badly they wanted to get this done. The most interesting thing to me was the back and forth between the two parties, and that's the case in any negotiation. The Pirates wanted ten years, and they wanted ten years of club control. They originally offered eight years with two club options. Griffin's side, Excel Sports Management, was not having it. They talked about eight years with one club option, and they ultimately could not come to a financial agreement there and that is how they landed ultimately at nine years. Now. The most interesting thing, at least from Griffin's perspective, and the most appealing thing I should say from his perspective, is that, Okay, he signed a long deal, and these deals traditionally work in the club's favor. But he will be a free agent again at age twenty eight entering his twenty nine season. Not again, he hasn't been a free agent yet, but he will become eligible for the open market entering his age twenty nine season. That's a win for him, and one hundred and forty million guaranteed is a win for him. The salaries and arbitration are reasonably competitive where you would expect them to be. The free agent numbers might be low if it turns out that he is a superstar. They are about twenty seven to twenty eight million. But at the same time, there were some escalators in there, and he will get another bite of the apple at a relatively young age for a free agent, not as young as he would have been twenty five twenty six, but certainly going into the age twenty nine season, that's still a sweet spot for free agents, so he's in great shape. Put it that way.

00:12:32
Speaker 4: There's been some struggles here in the beginning of the year, not only teams but players too as well. The Averagers have dipped a little bit. I want your or your answer from this question to say, which team right now do you think is the most alarming to you that, hey, man, if this team doesn't get going, we're going to have a big problem here, and they might not be the team that everybody thought they were going to be moving forward.

00:12:56
Speaker 2: I heard you guys talking about Seattle, and that's a good one. I do expect they're going to be better. And I will preface what I'm gonna say here by saying that in looking at box scores every day, it's remarkable how many players are not hitting period now. Part of it's the cold weather, part of it's the early adjustment to the season. All these things come into play. The team I'm worried about offensively is the team I've been worried about offensively all along, and it's the team I'm going to see tomorrow with Fox. That's the Boston Red Sox, and it seems to me from the start they have asked too much of Roman. Anthony asked him to be essentially a David Ortiz type impact player. And yes, we'll good start, but offensively, I just wonder whether this team has enough. And we all know that they have not started great. They're gonna play better, we all know that too, but is there enough impact there? Remember Devors traded, Gregman replaces him, Gregman lost, Wilson Contreras comes in, Caleb Durbin comes in. They have some pieces and it could be that their younger hitters emerge and they're fine, But that's my concern. That's the one team that I look at and I'm still just not sure they're going to have enough offensively.

00:14:14
Speaker 1: Hey, Ken, quick question. I know you're covering the Red Sox and the Cardinals all weekend here with Fox. How do you think Alex Korra and the front office are handling the playing time situation. I'll specifically bring up Jaron Duran. We were gonna do it as a segment. We're not gonna have time. We have too many other things going on. But Chris Catillo, who does a great job covering the Red Sox, put this out on Twitter last night. He said Duran is on pace for five hundred twenty six plate appearances this year after seven thirty five and twenty four and six ninety six and twenty five. He has sat in three of twelve games so far. I mean, this is a guy who looks like he could be an every year All Star. It certainly doesn't help the cause if he's not going to play every day and he's been in trade rumors for two years.

00:14:59
Speaker 2: Right, it's an interesting question. And keep in mind they have Duran, they have Ralphaeela, they have Anthony, they have will your Abreu, they have Masataki Yoshida. Five guys for essentially four spots because they use the DH for these guys as well. And it's going to be a trying situation, but I would expect that by the end of the year it works out okay, at least if they're going the way they've been going now and so far Korra has done a pretty good job of getting all of them in Now. Yes, Duran has fewer played appearances, but Scott, you just said he's still on pace for over five hundred. It's not three hundred, so I expect that ultimately, maybe at the deadline they have to again look at trades. But they've been pretty adamant about keeping these guys, and I understand why. They're all really good players and different kinds of players. But in this kind of circumstance, not everyone's going to get the adbats. Maybe that they got before could be advantageous in certain cases, maybe putting Durant in better situations instead of playing him every day. But what is going on here is going to be a topic of conversation the entire season because it's a delicate situation. And keep in mind, too, Scott, somebody's probably gonna get hurt at some point and that will increase the number of bats for the others who are healthy.

00:16:21
Speaker 3: All right, let's go to the story he wrote about or the yeah, the story he wrote about Brad Paisley and how the Dodgers have another reason why it's unfair because they have celebrities and artists and singers recruiting their players for them. But what was your favorite part about the Brad Paisley and the Pappy van Winkle getting the job done? Story.

00:16:44
Speaker 1: Wait, but hold on, Ken before you answer it, can I just I just want to add sorry, because this is an important part of the context for people that are like, why are we bringing it up again, because yesterday Brad was on Dodgers' territory and he was playing out some of the stories that you wrote about.

00:16:59
Speaker 2: Yes and this story I wrote with fabi on Ardaiya from the Athletic It was before last season, I believe, or maybe even the year before that. I can't remember exactly when it was.

00:17:09
Speaker 5: You could see there, Okay, well, regardless, it was after their billion dollar off season. We had all these great stories about what had happened and the trades that had happened and signings and all that.

00:17:21
Speaker 2: It was before Yamamoto and Glass. Now that was a yeah, before their first season. So Paisley, I got him on the phone and he told me about the night that Dave Roberts at the entire Dodgers' front office, came to his place in Nashville. The Winter meetings were in Nashville that year, and it was in the middle of the Winter meetings, and it was the day Dave Roberts revealed that the Dodgers had met with Otani. And if you guys remember at the time, everything with Otani was supposed to be confidential, and Dave shouldn't have said that. It shouldn't have been a big deal also, but it was a big to do. So that night, after all this all comes out, they go over to Paisley's house and Paisley greets them at the door with glasses of Pappy Van Winkle. Now, Roberts basically tells a man, I really needed this, And that's how the night began. Now as it evolved, there was a moment when Eric Neander, president baseball Operations for the Tampa Bay Rays, called Andrew Friedman. And Andrew Friedman picked up the phone, but he didn't pick it up right away. He gave it to Paisley and he said, this is Eric Neander. Tell him we need glass now. So Paisley did that. Neander said, wait, this sounds like some kind of AI generated voice of Brad Paisley. And Brad Paisley said it is Brad Paisley. Long story short, the Ray's front office, they all went over to Paisley's house as well. Neander and Friedman talked about the deal throughout the night and when Neander arrived, Paisley pointed to the top shelf his bar. He's got this whole bar in his house, I guess, and he said, that is the good stuff right there. That's the good whiskey. That's the Tyler glass. Now, deal is done. Stuff. You don't get that until the deal is done. Now. It didn't turn out that the deal was done that night, but it was just a hilarious telling, and Brad went into detail about it with Dodger Territory yesterday. I enjoyed watching him recounted again because it was that was a fun story to write, first of all, and just a great a great night.

00:19:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was awesome on the interview. Obviously, the story is great. You can check it out. It's still really good from Ken too. So Ken's getting disrupted there, so it's just a given. It is so classic. Anyway, Ken, I'll let you go. I just want to end on this. Katie Wu said it's her civic duty now as a journalist to find out which I held the exact face planet leading Paisley's house, because he mentioned right now, I didn't.

00:19:55
Speaker 2: Have that my story that night. I did not know that detail that what Paisley said on Dodger chart or was that some executive. He didn't mention whether it was a raised executive or Dodgers executive. Face planted when going to his uber at the end of the night. It ended like at four a m. And Katie diligent reporter that she is, claims or says she's going to find out who that executive was, and I trust that she will.

00:20:20
Speaker 1: Yes, that's the good stuff, the investigative journalism. All right, Ken, tell the housekeeping, just keep you one moment here now we're mini oh mini bar minibar. Very important especially for you. Yeah, we got to make sure Ken's got all the nuts and the snacks and the whatever. Ken, thank you. We'll see you on Fox on Saturday for the game there.

00:20:40
Speaker 2: Thanks guys,