Harriet the Spy with Jenna Ushkowitz

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the bec Del cast. The time has come, the woman said to the other woman to talk of many things, of shoes and ships and ceiling wax, of cabbages and queens. Wow, Caitlyn, and why the sea is boiling hot? And whether pigs have jeans to rhyme with queens jeans? Oh, I was like, I was like, is that a feminist thing? Jeans instead of wings? Rest just needed to That's true, and that's you know, that's my bad. Jeans are a prison for all genders. Um, And so in that way, it's a very inclusive piece of restrictive clothing. In conclusion, I liked your palm. Thank you so much. Um. It is from today's movie. But before we get there, Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our feminist movie podcast where we examine the representation of women in film, and we use something called the Bechtel test. Jamie, what is that? Even? Well, I think I remember. Here's what if memory serves, Here's what it is. The Bechtel test is a media metric invented by cartoonist Alice and Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires a piece of media do the following. There has to be two female identifying characters with names for our purposes, who speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more. Most movies can't make it happen, absolutely can't. I just watched that new movie with Chris Hemsworth on Netflix, and I had to say, it doesn't pay and anything. It doesn't pass the good movie test. It doesn't pass the Bechtel test. It doesn't pass the I finished the movie test. A lot of movies don't pass it. Which one is that extraction? Extraction? More like I want to extract myself out of this movie watching experience. I haven't seen it yet. Um yeah, but today's movie. I feel like today's movie will do okay on the Bechtel test. Not to not to spoil it would be imagine how deeply got wrenchingly disappointing it would be of this movie somehow did not pass the Bechtel test, right, it would be devastating. Well, we'recovering Harriet the Spy, and before we even introduce our guest, who we are very excited to have on the show, we wanted to jump to a quick conversation that we had with a friend of the show. She played Janey in the movie Harriet the Spy. It's Vanessa Lee Chester. Hi, Vanessa, welcome back him so excited to be back. I honestly, when I got Caitlin's email, I was like, what is going on because I had just been thinking about you guys, And I was like, yeah, you posted something on Instagram and I was like, she's so fucking funny. And I literally was like, I had such a great time chatting with you guys, and all my friends who like listen to the episode, we're like, this is such a fucking legit show. And I was like, I know, right, And so when you guys hit me up, I was like, they like me, we love you, welcome back. I'm excited so so recovering Harriett the Spy, and I guess we just wanted to start by talking to you about, like your experience on that movie. How do you how do you remember that time and that shooting experience? Now, it was fantastic. Like I can't speak for a lot of other child actors, but I loved being on that set so much. I feel like, of all the characters that I've ever played, I feel like the most similar to Janie. Like she's weird. She's very expressive in the way that she dresses, and that denotes so much of her character. She's passionate about science, which is something that you don't see a lot in young women, and I'm obsessed. I swear that Bill ny is my friend, but we've never met, and it's just like in my mind, like Neil degrass Tyson is my uncle and then his best friend is Bill n I and we're just all this huge, great family. Um. But yeah, Like working on that set was just so fantastic. I feel like the story is just it's like everything a precocious, curious kid wants to live out and then getting a chance to actually bring it to the big screen with such an honor. Like I loved every moment of it. Yeah, I'm still like I'm still friends with everyone. Like Greg and I talked, Yes, Greg is like my boy like I he will have a special place in my heart for the rest of my life. Yeah. And then so now you're later what for you or just based on you know, because I'm sure that people talk to you about it, Uh fair amount? What is what is the legacy of this movie sort of like become over time? Um. I feel like that's a really difficult question because I feel like there's something really special about this movie, but it resonates in different ways for everyone. I got a really sweet d M I want to say at the end of last year from this lady on Instagram. And I'm only saying her race because it's relative to this it's important to the story. And she happens to be white. And she was like, um, hey, you know, I just wanted to reach out to you and see if there was any way you could possibly send me an autograph from my sister. She's adopted and she happens to be black. And we used to watch Harry at the Spy all the time when we were little because we were like, Janey and Harriet are basically sisters, and we looked at it like us like two little girls who are you know, outcasts, but are complete grounded and who they are, and I was like crying reading the d M, you know, and I sent her like I sent her an autograph copy of my DVD and like a poster and I was like, this is for you, your sister and your brother, because like you guys are basically Janey, Harriet and Sports. Yeah. It was really sweet, like we're friends on LinkedIn now. We're just so random and like, do you think I actually have like a dope job. I'm an actor trying to like be on more movies. It always surprises me when I hear from fans of Harriet the Spy and just how it resonated for them. And I feel like a lot of girls who I've heard some women from the LGBTQ community say that, like I kind of felt like Harriet may have been like the first lesbian that I've read about, you know, And I was like, whoa, That's something that I've never thought about. And I just think that that's cool that like it's almost up for interpretation, but you can see yourself in it regardless for the best. I love it. Um A quick question I had because neither Jamie nor I have read the book that the film was based on and we were trying in our research to figure out if the Janey character was specifically written as black, and we couldn't find anything out about that. So we were wondering if if you knew about that, or if maybe the character was just written kind of ethnically ambiguous, and they cast it's no, it's really interesting that you brought that up. I'm glad that you said that, because I was going to bring it up myself. Um, once you guys asked me to do this, I st I picked the book back up and I was like, I need to like refresh myself and see what this is about. And in I want to say, the second chapter, when Harry is going back to school, they're describing all of the kids and they described Janey and they're like, Janey is a shy, meek girl with freckles and like doesn't really like making eye contact with people. And I was like, WHOA. I mean, freckles could be any race, but they're generally, you know, associated with people who are going to be Caucasian. And I was like, whoa, you know, and it kind of made me think, like I feel like Janie might have been white. But the director didn't want that, and I remember auditioning and they were like, we want you to be bold, and we want you to be like charismatic and have a lot of confidence, and like I loved it. I was like, she's wild, Like this is the version of me that I wish I could bring to school every day. But it seems as if Janey in the book is actually a little bit more questions herself a little bit, which I thought was an interesting adaptation. Oh that's cool. Yeah, yeah. Janey in the movie definitely feels like an aspirational like character, like you want to be like her? Oh my gosh. I remember, like I knew I was getting paid, but I didn't really care. I was like, but how can I have Janey's entire wardrobe? That's what we really need to talk about. Like I get it, like I'm gonna go to college with this money that I'm allegedly making. But what about those suspenders that you guys made? I want those? Did you get to keep anything? Um? I don't remember. To be honest, I'm sure I did. And who knows? Justice for the overalls I got to find them. They're like in some type of like it's a wrap type of thrift store in Burbank, and I just got to find them. Um, do you have any other kind of final thoughts that you want to share, any thoughts at all about your experience being in the movie or just with the story itself, for anything along those lines. Well, now that we're chatting, I'm really excited to revisit the book and just read it now that I'm older and like have a different type of analytical eye, because you know, when I was younger, I remember starting the book and just dropping it because I was like, oh, like, I don't even want to read the rest. I just want to get a notebook. And I thought it is really funny because I was actually in the movie. I had just finished shooting it, and I went back to school with a notebook, And I think it's really funny as an adult looking back on Heat. How even though I knew that I had filmed this entire spectacular movie, Like my imagination was so sparked by what she was doing. All I wanted to do was like run on roofs and spy on people. And my mom was like, don't try that ship, do not even try it. Like I went to school with a notebook, Like basically pretending I was Harriet before the movie came out. Like that's amazing. I had the same experience where I saw the movie as a young child and was obsessed with Harriet and her notebook spy gear, and I just like I wanted to be Harriet. Yeah, And that's what's so amazing about it, Like we all wanted to be Harriet, you know, like it just there was something so courageous about her, Like that's what we all want to do, is like pretend we're older and like that. The thing that I find to be very endearing about Harriet is a lot of young kids, we all feel like we're adults. Like I remember telling my mom I could run the country, attend like I was confident that I would be a better president than all the people that I saw on TV. And maybe I was right. I mean, are you wrong? I know I was, like you're still out, who knows? Like I was a pretty woke little nine year old whatever. But it's amazing how mature Harry is. And like in the book, they denote the parts that are specifically her writing in her notebook with a different font, so you know that those are her thoughts. And there's a part in the book where Old Golly says to her, like you need to write down everything. You don't need to like sugarcoat it, write down things in the way that you see it, you know. And as you guys remember the movie, like her friends see the notebook and everyone loses it. And I'm like, when I was little, I used to be like, oh my god, Harriet's so mean, she's so messed up. But like now that I'm older, like she's a child, and children are amazing because they're so honest. Like she wasn't actually trying to be malicious. She was just documenting and writing down what she saw without trying to impress anyone, because she didn't feel like her thoughts would be out in the public. You know, I don't know, it's just a thought that I had, No totally I have. I have the same feeling. Yeah. Yeah, Like he's like Janey's weird and might blow up the world. Yeah, if you had a friend who was like always talking about blowing up the world at ten, you might be a little skeptical a little there. That That's why, I mean, that's like part of what I really love about the movie, like is that it makes like friendships with kids like it takes their friendship seriously and they're like complicated, but they're also like, yeah, of course a kid would say that if they were I mean, and yeah, if they didn't think anyone else would ever see it. So you can feel for her but also be like you can't do Janey like that. I mean, that's a really great point, is like it definitely brings like a drama that's like that's their world, and you know, we're sitting here, we're like, you're in sixth grade, it'll be fine, but like sixth grade is everything when you're in sixth grade, right, So yeah, I love that point, Jamie, that's really legit. Well, Vanessa, thank you so much for contributing, for giving your amazing thoughts and firsthand experience of being in the movie. And thank you for being in the movie. Yes, you guys are so amazing. Thank you so much for inviting me back. This has been such a great little piece of joy during what we're all going through. Um being able to discuss one of the projects that I've been in that I absolutely adored being a part of, and I cannot wait to hear this episode and how you guys break it down because you guys kill it and I know you're going to do with justice. Yes, thank you again, and we'll have to have you back for like a legitimate episode, like a full episode. Yeah, like don't don't play me. I will stock you if you don't know that it's all on. We've got it documented. We accept the challenge. Love it all right. You guys are awesome you to talk to you. Thank you so much, have a good day. Yay, thanks again Vanessa for chatting with us. And that brings us to our wonderful guest for today's episode. She is a podcast host, a producer, and actress best known from Glee. It's Jenna Ushkowitz. Hello, what's going on you guys? So excited to be here. Oh, we're so excited to have you. Love a good Quarantine record. You know it? You know it. Oh yeah, it's a good time to watch lots and lots of movies. It's true. It's full on escape Zone. I love it. Right. Tell us about your relationship and your history with Harriet the Spy. Well, I loved Harriet the Spy. This is totally like we're similar in age. Michelle Tractonberg and I and when this came out, I was like, finally a girl who can wear jeans and sneakers and doesn't have to wear dresses all the time, and like somebody who kind of like is wearing what I would want to wear. It. That's the first thought I had when I when I saw Harriet the really cool little yellow raincoat. And I started acting when I was really really young, and I would do voiceovers a lot, and I got a call to do some looping, which is the background voices throughout the film that they need to fill in like a playground or at school or whatever. And so I went in to do looping for Harriet the Spy. So in some of these scenes, I'm actually like whispering, like especially in the carry like blue paint scene, I whispered like into the girl's ear and it was so cool, that's your voice. And so I still get these like mini checks from Paramount for ten cents um from Marry the Spot. Yeah, every once in a while it'll be like sixty cents. You're like we're going out and uh yeah. And Michelle and I actually modeled together a lot growing up. We were just, you know, we kind of like cross paths a lot in the business so um. But I love the film and I actually also loved it so much that I got a note a marble notebook, and I you know, duplicated the private on it and I wrote all these like crazy things about my family in them. And one day my walking my room, my mom's like what is this. She's like what did she write? And she's like, this movie is no good for you? And I was it was like all made up stuff, but she was like, I was like, you're reading my diary. Parents have an interesting relationship with this movie because they're like, I'm sure, I'm sure. That's such an amazing connection to this movie. That's so cool. Yeah, your voice has a press since life in the movie. Yeah. I very vividly remember standing in like this big voiceover room and like booth. It was a really big booth though, and the movie was like in this on this massive screen on the wall and they would just start and then you would you have to play and like being a playground with like other kids. It was like the most fun. That's so cool. That's so fun, Jamie. What's your relationship with the movie. I have a very complicated relationship with this movie in that I was not allowed I was. I was pretty I was like I was like three or four when this movie came out, so I didn't see it when it first came out. But I wasn't allowed to watch it when I was little because I had like I had. I was like a full on undiagnosed o c D child, and so I took a notebook literally everywhere, and I would get in trouble at school about it because I did this thing from I first remember doing it in First Raid. But I had this like real child O c D fixation on writing down when everyone in a room was wearing and saying for no reason. Like it was unlike Harriet. I had no end game. There was no objective or career goal attached to my notebooks. But I just did it compulsively and I would get in trouble for it all the time, and people were like, this is this makes me uncomfortable. Why should she keep writing down that I'm wearing a yellow shirt? And so it was like such a chronicle problem for me that my mom was like movie about girl with notebook, we can't have it in the house, like, so I didn't get to see it, and I'm so bummed because now now that I've seen it, I'm like, first of all, my mom was kind of right, and it definitely would have made made my notebook problem a million times worse and it was already pretty bad. Uh. But second of all, it's such a good movie and it's so like, I don't know, I just like I love it in every single way. I love movies that let kids be like complicated and kind of messy but not fall into that like precocious child trope that is so annoying. And I don't know, I don't think it's so well done. I love like the direction style of it. It seems like everyone in the movie is like having the time of their life. And I just wish I could have seen it when I was younger. But um, I'll hand it to Jill. She was probably right not to show it to me. Jim. Yeah, Jill being a good parent, which, well, she's just like, I don't want my kid to get bullied at school for her horse notebooks anymore than she already is. Uh. What's your experience with this movie, Caitlin. I did watch it when I was a youth. I was deeply impacted by this movie, But what I remember way more than the movie it'sself was what I did in response to the movie. Like I think I probably saw it maybe only once or twice. It came out in nine I was ten, um, so I was like kind of the exact right age for it. But I think I saw it few enough times that I don't remember what the story was at all. But again, it impacted me so much that the movie made me want to be a spy. I had my mom get me a notebook just like Harriet's, one of those like marble notebooks. I put together this little like kit of spice stuff, anything I could get my hands on, which was mostly just like a magnifying glass and like a pen. But it was like, I'm going to be a spy. And I started eating mayonnaise sandwiches because I didn't like tomato, but so I didn't want to eat the tomato part of the tomato and mayonnaise sandwiches that Harriet makes, but I liked mayonnaise, so I would just eat just plain mayonnaise sandwiches. I would do this thing where I would slurp soup very obnoxiously and then say good soup like Harriet does in the movie. Like I had I picked up all these habits from the movie, but I rewatching it to prep for this episode. I realized that I had no idea what this movie was about. I like had completely forgotten everything about the story. Um so, but again, it really it really had a major impact on me when I was a child. So that's it's it's iconic. It really is. It had such a like it's so interesting and had such an effect even though you didn't even get to see it, Like it was really impactful and like finally seeing a girl who's not so dainty and like wanting to have a notebook to write things down, Like I just I think it was impactful in like a positive way, even though parents probably had a very toward relationship with the film for their children. Um but I feel the same way. I definitely made those sandwiches, and I definitely like I felt very like I just wanted to be her. I wanted to replicate her. I wanted to be her. She made it really cool, like she she was really cool. Totally. I feel like, yeah, this is this movie is good representation for people who double down on disgusting sandwiches, and I include myself in that community of someone's like Yeah, this is the worst food you could possibly eat every single day, and I'm doing it proudly. You're like, all right. I mean it also just speaks to and I'm sure we'll talk about this a lot, but it just speaks for the need for representation of movies about little girls like doing cool things and doing things that like other little girls or little children as viewers can aspire to, because there's just isn't much of that still, and the fact that this movie exists and was so impactful for so many people just like speaks to that need. Yeah, and just being like reflective of what a sixth grader's interests actually are, because I feel like movies for like targeted at young girls and and sometimes young young boys as well, is like eleven year olds that are like there's a crush narrative that's a it takes up a ton of real estate that like, I don't know, there's so many like sixth graders are weird and their interests are weird, and their friendships are like intense, and I like that this movie kind of reflects all of that for sure. Well, should we talk about the story and then go from there? I say, yes, Okay, couldn't hurt. Okay. So we meet Harriet. That's Michelle Tratchenberg of course. Um. She is a young girl who wants to be a writer. She learns everything she can and she writes down everything she sees in this private notebook that she always carries around. And that's why she's a spy. She's a spy because she's gearing up for a career as a writer. Um. We cut to her at school. She and her best friends Sport Gregory Smith and Janey of course, played by Vanessa Chester who you just heard there in sixth grade, and Harriet is nominated for class resident along with her arch nemesis Marian Hawthorne. And the best perk of being class president is being editor of the sixth grade newspaper, which is a weird thing that was I was like, wow, what a strange two powers to connect. It seems like the president shouldn't edit the newspaper. Yeah, that would be like if Donald Trump was like the head of all news. Right now he's the head of some news. Yea. All had to say, it seems like a conflict of interest to me. I agree. Also, I don't know about like your schools, but like We didn't have a sixth grade newspaper. There was no journalism of any kind is for me. Yeah, it was like high schools when school newspaper, right, okay, just just making sure before that it's just all you just trust what you hear over the loud speaker and if that isn't a totalitarianactly. I was very envious of those classes where you'd see, like they have the morning news, where you got to be like a newscast, because I would have totally been that girl, but like I didn't. We didn't have that. Yeah, I didn't have that. We had like a teenager that went to the principal's office to do the announcements every day so the principle wouldn't have to. We just had the principle outsourcing their job to children. Rude. Yeah. Well, unfortunately for Harriet, Mary and her enemy wins class president. Then after school, Harriet goes off on her spy route. She spies on this guy who has a bunch of cats, um, dozens of cats. And now it's a great time to mention cats. Facts with Caitlin. Cats have eight nipples and there were many cats. I don't know how many cat nipples there were but there's a lot. Anyway. I was counting my cat's nipples the other day and I couldn't. I couldn't get to eight. Some of them don't have that many. My fact is actually spread because that's what Google told me. The one time I looked it up. Fakeness canceled me. Cat Fax's fakeness anyway. Okay, So Harriet's on her spy route. She's looking at the guy with a bunch of cats, and she spies on the Hong Fat family at their supermarket. She spies on the delivery guy who she thinks is stealing vegetables, and she's writing all of this down in her notebook. Then we meet Harriet's nanny, Golly, played by Rosie O'Donnell. She is a very important figure and mentor in Harriet's life. She's like, she's a better parent than Harriet's parents, Right, who are these kind of upper crusts don't seem to spend a lot of time with Harry. I think her dad is like a comedy screenwriter or something. There's that exchange of dialogue where he's like, I'm the funny man. I do the comedy. Do you other guys are the money men. I like to think this is commentary on how most male comedy writers are actually very uptight and not funny at all. Yes, I agree, what an interesting choice of job for this upper crust family. Right, what were you writing on, sir? Yeah? Is he like what show? Because this show kind of like, well, part of what I love about the aesthetic of this movie is like it could kind of happen basically whenever, Like they do that cool thing where there's not any dated tech really included in the story, so you can kind of project it to be whenever. But yeah, I'm like, what what if he was like, I'm a Seinfeld writer and you're like, no, that canonically, what is he supposed to be writing? That's really I was kind of thinking that, Yeah, who knows. Anyway, one night, Golly invites a date over and it turns out to be the vegetable Steeler guy and they go out for dinner in a movie and they're like getting back to Harriett's house and when they return, Harriet's mom is super worried because she's like, where I didn't know where Harriet was? So she fires Golly um but then like immediately takes it back. But even so this all transpires to Golly deciding to leave. She's like, it's time for me to go. Harriet has grown up enough now and I'm gonna peace out. Also, Harriet's mom was being very unreasonable in that situation. Yes, like this woman is raising your child for you. Can you chill? Yeah? I mean, well, women be lashing out, so, you know, good things. She has her comedy right, her husband to keep her in check. It's like, what anyways here? His parents are weird? Yeah they are. But Golly leaves and her parting words to Harriet are you know, keep being a by and keep writing. So she does. Um, she goes. She does her normal spy root with the cat guy and the hung fat market, and then she sees her friend Sport struggling to pay for groceries, and she pretends that he dropped a dollar outside so that she can help pay for his groceries. And then she snoops around Eartha Kit's house. What a treat? What a fun treat? Because you hear Eartha Kit before you see her, and so I was just like, no way, what what what? And then she it's it's her, and it's just it's clear that she was on set for five hours, and then I was so what a treat? So happy to see Oh yes, But it's at Eartha Kitts house that Harriet gets caught, and good spies never get caught, so she's super down on herself for having been caught. So the next day, instead of doing her usual spy route, she decides to play with her friends. She's like, I don't deserve to be a spy. I'll do normal kids stuff. So during a game of bumper tag, Harriet drops her notebook and her nemesis, Maran Hawthorne picks it up and starts reading it to a group of kids, and it becomes clear that it's basically a burn book where Harriet is just saying pretty mean stuff about all of her classmates, including her best friends Janey and Sport. So now that this is all out in the public, everyone hates her and her friends ignore her, and the kids at school are like passing around notes saying that Harriet smells. And they build a clubhouse for catching spies and just a it's a cool clubhouse. It's I want that clubhouse, right, They duck tape it together. It's it's a it's built the way that kids would build a clubhouse, and I appreciated that. Then her parents are like, you're obsessed with being a spy and it's not healthy, and they make her give up her notebook. And then there's an incident at school where Marian and her friend's dump blue paint on her and she freaks out. She goes home, she rips her notebook up. It's a very big fat liar. Even though this movie came out before big fat liar. I'm just like, oh, yeah, PAULIATI got blue painted too. It happens. Oh yep, I haven't seen that. Why is that a children's movie trope? Just getting dumped on by blue paint by blue paint, blue paint? I don't know. I don't know, alright, I think peace on it, please. And then Harriet decides to get revenge on her classmates for doing this, and she carves like a hit list into her desk and she gets revenge by cutting off a girl's ponytail. She ruins various school projects. She tells Mary and that her dad doesn't of her. Pretty traumatic things like that, very rebellious, very rebellious. Yeah, she's listen. Harriet's a flawed character. It's true. We'll talk all about it. And then there's like there's little moments too where like I love Harriet so much, but I'm like, oh, yeah, she's also a rich brat where sometimes she'll do things where I'm just like, oh, you just like have so much privilege you can't see. She lives in an enormous apartment, really nice and the Upper East Side, but I mean, I mean so much it boggles the mind. And it's also such a cool movie house. It's rank controled you guys there they pay seven a month to live there. She inherited it from her grandma's grandma. Okay, it's like friends, right, right. So her parents are like, oh, something's happening with our daughter. She's really lashing out. So they take her to a child psychologist. And this is when she's maybe starting to realize that what she was writing in her notebook was kind of nasty and it hurt people's feelings. So her parents give her notebook back and Golly comes back for a visit, and Golly is like, here's the thing. You need to apologize, and you need to tell some white lies because white lies are okay, and also maybe try writing something other than notes. In your notebook. So then Harriet goes to apologize to Jane and sport. They're still sour at first, and then in class, Harriet suggests that people besides just the class president should get to write the school newspaper. So the kid with the purple socks is like, yeah, I agree, and Harriet is a really good writer. I nominate her to be the editor of the newspaper. It's kind of incredible how much the kid in the purple socks ends up coming through and having narrative significance in right, and they don't see it coming, don't see it coming. And this is someone who Harriet said should hang themselves. It's really and he really gets over it. He this is the thing piece I want. The kid with the purple socks went home and was like, you know what, sticks and stones may break my bones, but good journalism is good journalism that he advocates for her. He sure does. So everyone else is like, yeah, Harriet, you're the new editor of the newspaper. So then she writes a retraction, apologizing saying the things that she had written before weren't fair. She was too quick to judge people and jump to conclusions. And then The movie ends with her class dancing around during their winter pageant, like in a gravy boat. In a gravy boat, Harriet is an onion. I think they're The costumes are pretty fun. It reminded me so much of does anyone remember that episode of Hey Arnold? Were their fruits in the play? Yes, that's another like fun children's media troupe, like we got to dress up the kids like food. People love it. It's so good. Uh, And that's the story. So let's take a quick break and then we will come right back to discuss uh where where to begind um with Harry? I mean, should we just start by by talking about Harriet? I suppose so? Um. I think there's no better play. The first thing I want to say, I think is that because I didn't remember what the movie was about, like my ten year old brain just comp really forgot. I assumed that this story was going to be kind of like a Nancy Drew type story, where like Harriet would have to like solve a mystery because she's a spine and she comes across a thing that she needs to figure out. Interesting, But I think what happens in this movie is way more realistic to what an eleven year old girl would get involved in, rather than like somehow being able to solve this like this mystery. So I thought that was actually really cool because as I was watching it, I was like, what's what's the missy? When's the mystery going to happen? When are they going to establish And I'm like, oh, wait a minute, that's not what this movie is about. It's about her. Yeah. I like that she like they make it clear that she's like devoted to what she does and she is good at it. But you're also like, but like what is she doing? Which is how all of us when we were eleven did things Like we were just like yeah, this is important and this is cool, and then at the end they're like, well what did you accomplish? You're like nothing, nothing, I got into a fight with my mom. Harriet is such a cool, complicated character. Where I was, I was really like kind of like really impressed with how this movie just like goes there with like parent conflict and um, the like subtleties of like communicating that Harriet's parents are like kind of have like failed her in some ways and that there has to be a conversation about how they have failed her in some ways and how they just don't really understand her. And there's like class stuff tackled in this movie where like Harriet doesn't clear I mean clearly to demonstrate through how she treats sports, like doesn't understand class really at all, um and like has to learn that and she like fox up. But it's still I don't know. Yeah, it's like the movie tackles so many different things that are all like stuff that affects kids, but it does it in a way that is still appealing to kids. It's like it's incredible. Yeah, they do a good job because it's it's Nickelodeon. I think it was one of the first movies that Nickelodeon had released, And I was reading about it because I think it's interesting that the book by Louise fits You is has been banned. It's on banned books lists for different like school like children's libraries and school libraries and things like that. Yeah, I don't remember ever seeing it in a school library, which is like because it goes back to the thing of like our you know, parents probably have this weird toward relationship with the movie because it's like the parents failing and they're not, you know, failing their child and not being there for her. But I like the idea of like the power of words, like teaching the kids what the power that they have with their what they say and what they think and how they express it. I also was thinking about like sweet little Gali Um and her relationship up. I love that that relationship between the two ladies. But um, you know, I was like, Oh, this is how I'll be able to teach my kid about how to white light and how that's okay. I was like, I'm gonna take that even. I mean, like that scene is such a cool, like big swing of like I don't know, like just like that just shows how seriously the like writers of this movie take their kid audience of like they don't doubt that that will like, you know, resonate with them. Yeah. I mean I think like the whole way through with Harriet, like she is flawed. So I go back and forth and like, am I supposed to be cheer like rooting for her this whole time? Where am I supposed to kind of I'm learning things as a thirty four year old woman from Harriet Um. But you know, at the end of the day, like with that sweet scene at the end, it's like sometimes you have to lie, but to yourself you must always tell the truth, Like that's it, you know. So I think there were really really great messages along the way for a nuggets for these kids to actually take even though you know, our tenure o brains were like I want to be a spy, you know. And then but like having uh these like nonconformist women at the helm of a film where you go like, oh, I you know, the underrepresented is represented in a way. I love her relationship with Golly. I think like her relationship with Golly is so beautiful and cool, and I feel like a really good model of like how adults can treat children not with kid gloves and it can be like a very like that that's just like how you should treat a kid generally. Um. I love like that scene where um, Golly like listens to Harriet, she cares about her interests, she supports what Harriet's interested in, and then also like does that cool thing where like it's like an adult takes you seriously and then tries to like spanned your knowledge where she like brought her to see that movie about Mata Hari and she knows about Josephine Baker and like all these female spies or yeah, I think like Golly is such a cool character and and the fact that we also get a little look into her personal life and her interior life, because they feel like in India's movies that mostly hang out in like the upper crust class, the only poor characters you see have no interior life that we're made aware of. But it's like Golly has a life, and she has interests and she and she advocates for herself when like Harriet's mom, you know, like treats are like ship She's like, no, I'm out of here. I don't I don't need to put up with this. I also love the fem Fatale uh movie theater. Like I was like, okay, yeah, because they went to like a fem fatale like film festival, right yeah, yeah yeah, and then they like saw think it was a real movie that was like based on like Mata Harris adventures. And I don't know, these were like women that I wrote a like a report on Mata Hari when I was a kid, like oh, spies, but it's yeah, their relationship is great and it made me cry when Colly left the first time. It's really like maybe I'll travel. You know, You're just like I want to go with Golly, right right. Some other things that I like that we've already touched on, but like I guess in terms of um, Harriet's friend group, so you know, you you you heard what Vanessa had to say. But the fact that, um, you know, Harriet's two friends are Janey, who is a woman of color in STEM. It's so rare to see little black girls doing science on screen or having an interest in science in any media. That that was really remarkable. And and it also doesn't like make a big I feel like a big thing. There is also just like normalizing it and not making it this like big focal point. It's like, yeah, Janey likes science. This is what she does, this is how she acts, blah blah blah, and like it just is. She's also has like a fascination with very destructive science. She's like, I love the h bomb crowd, Manhattan Project, Let's do it. And we're like, she's obsessed with laser beams that would like disintegrate people. She'll work it out in therapy later. Right, all these kids are in therapy, like, oh yeah, yeah, Janey is awesome. And I was also, um, kind of just based on other movies that we've covered in like tropes that we've noticed over the years. Um, I think I'm thinking of the craft where yeah, normally, you know, in a movie where there's only one person of color, and usually specifically a black character, you don't get to see their home life or their home life is kind of excluded from the narrative. And that again, it's just like not the case for Janey, and it's done in a very like just a normalized way of like you see her mom, her mom's like stop blowing things up, and you're like, all right, cool, there we are. Um, you get a peek at the home life and and like I guess to be fair, not in the same amount of detail that we get for Harriet and for Sport Um, but you do get to see her home life, her relationship with her mom, and it's you know, it's like a meaningful part of the story. And then I mean, speaking of Sport, I also like that the movie normalizes girls being friends with boys, because I think a lot of media targeted to children would try to emphasize a divide between girls and boys, and like how girls were turning in to like a crushed narrative too. But they're just you know, platonic friends. There's no indication, at least in the movie that any of them have any you know, little crush on anyone else. You know, they're busy, if they're too busy being spies and you know, making spores in their bedroom and stuff like that. And then with with Sport, there is, like you said, Jamie, um, some attention is drawn to class because you know, Harriet comes from a well to do family, whereas Sport I mean to say the least, I mean her dad, Larry David, Like, how is a comedy writer having that house? Who knows? Yeah, Sport comes from a poor family who his dad is also a writer. But you know, there's that line where Harriet says something like, my dad would call guys like your dad a starving artist, get a real job. Yeah, why want Harriet's dad staff sports Dad? If he's the showrunner of Seinfeld, give Sports Dad a job on the show. Right, But like, but if he's a shitty writer, um, that could be it. Well, he does sell something for ten dollars at the end, so that's true. That's that's something. I like the sweet little scene where she climbs up and she's spying on Sport and like she sees Sport with his uh with his dad and they're running around like with you know, having this like grand old time with a chicken hat or whatever. That thing was. Um, but yeah, I think it also shows that like happiness comes in different forms and being fulfilled in a different way. For children to kind of understand that, like that you don't need money to have a happy family was also like pretty pretty powerful, I thought for sure. I mean, there's definitely an existing trope where children from poor families or just poor families in general are miserable, and often there's like this idea that like, oh, earns of a poor family are abusive or negligent or you know any any manner of like really negative stereotypes, and we don't see that at all with Sports family. Well, I will say just a little bit that like Sport, I guess I think that sports Dad is kind of weirdly written in some moments of like he's not a good parent. He's not written to be a good parent, because like Sport is the one who is like doing the cooking and like buying groceries because his dad is depressed to write his shitty book. So I feel like it is not like entirely like I don't know a fair point that yeah, I feel like I mean this, this movie and this story goes out of the way to give kids a lot of agency, but like Sport is literally seems to be running the house and he's yeah tenor a weaven, I mean, which does mean we see a little boy doing a lot of like domestic chores, which we never see the context of it. Though I don't know. It doesn't like is I don't I mean, yeah, it seems like he has, you know, a depressive parent, but then it's like that thing where they're like, well, depressive equals art, so best not to deal with it. So I don't know. I was a little concerned for Sport even when things started working out for the family, uh, because I'm just like, are we does does sports still have to cook tonight? Like? Can this dad learn how to make a box of mac and cheese for his son? Please? I was just worried about Sport. There there is an exchange of dialogue that I thought was really powerful, and I think would have been especially powerful to see if I had remembered it as a child when I saw it. But you know, Harriet says something like I hate money, and Sport replies with, you'd like it a lot more if you didn't have any, which is such a like, you know, Harriet's coming from this really privileged place, so of course, like she gets to hate money because money doesn't a lack of money isn't affecting her, Like she doesn't have to worry about that. She's never had to Yeah, she's never had to really think about it. Um. One of the things where I feel, okay, so Harriet. I like that the that there is some like class diversity in in this movie as well. And one of the I think cool things that Harriet does as a little rich New York kid um is that she gets to go to therapy. And I was kind of like when this scene came up, I was like, oh, you know, it's like nineties six. You don't really know which way this is going to go because I feel like, especially during this time, there is still like significant stigma against any kind of therapy, and you would sometimes see therapy characters made out to be kind of like cookie and like kind of like snake oil salesman, and you know, they're like, how are you feeling, and they don't actually understand, they're not actually listening. But I I really love the direction that this movie takes it, which is that it is helpful for Harriet, like and and the fact that she went to therapy even though she herself was skeptical of it, um ends up improved. I mean no, I mean like really improving her parents understanding of her more so than her understanding of herself. But I was happy to see that therapy and like mental health stuff was not made a joke of because I feel like that's an easy joke that you kind of see a lot in movies in the like nineties early two thousand's. Yeah, I think you have a long way to go with therapy still and mental health, even though we're moving in a forward motion. But I I'm actually we're watching Sopranos for the first time right now, where I think they're doing a really wonderful job with the way in that world, like you know, handling and approaching the topic of mental health. But like they bring their son to you know, their sons not paying attention. They think he has a d D. He's going to get tested. It's like, I want to see people go who don't have major overlaying issues, meaning that like you have to go to therapy because just because of that, Like I we always see kids being brought to therapy because they're troubled, rather than just being able to say, like therapy is okay for everybody, true, you know, and it's ultimately in this case, it seems like Harriet is being Part of the reason to Harriet is being sent to therapy is because her parents are not doing the work they need to do to understand, like it's just as much of them, like they should also be in therapy, and I hope that they are right. Right, Well, the movie kind of frames the Gali leaving is the catalyst for trauma. Yeah, it's it's it's Harriet's trauma, and it's why she sort of lashes out and because like what happens is that people find her notebook where she has said all these you know, perhaps truthful but still mean things about all of her classmates, and then they retaliate against her because they're like, you can't say this horrible stuff about us, that's mean, and they kind of shun her, but she retaliates against them again for having been really doubles down. She doubles down, and it's like, but like, that's also a realistic thing that I think a lot of eleven year olds would do. I honestly, watching this, I'm like I anytime I see a movie where kids like kind of act out in a funny way, like, oh, I wish I was I wish I was like a bolder child, and I like recognize at the time and like, this really isn't going to have that much of an effect on my life. I should just do some fucked up weird stuff. She gets like there, she really doubles down in a way I would not have been brave enough to attempt as as an eleven year old. It's inspiring, yeah, because I think maybe a movie that had a lesser understanding of like children's behavior and psychology would just to have it so that her book got found all of her you know, mean notes were revealed, and then she would just be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Everyone better now. But like, no, that's not It spirals out of control and I could like totally see myself like me, I don't think I ever did anything quite like that. But like you know, when you're a kid and you don't know how to hold yourself accountable for any misdeeds you did, you're gonna keep lashing out because you just don't know how else to process anything. I had a really embarrassing thing like not I mean not as it wasn't a mean thing, but when I was in fifth grade, I left an open document at the computer lab saying that I was like trying to I don't know anyway. My teacher was Mr Brewster, and I had typed the words Mr Brewster hot, and it became a thing that was you know, it was not an easy time to have been the girl that typed Mr Brewster hot, because I meant it as a question, not as a statement, not that anyone would believe me. I meant Mr Brewster HoTT, but the punctuation wasn't there, and so and and and and I just doubled down in saying that it was a question and not a statement, which made the whole thing worse. And being a child is a full full fledged nightmare. It's traumatic, you really, I think about it all, like, even thinking about it now just still puts a pit in my stomach of like, damn, should have just pressed backspace, like it would have been so easy. That's basically the plot of Love Simon. By the way, I yes, I was. Uh, it's actually based on me and Mr Brewster story. They licensed it from us. Incredible. Yeah, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back for more discussion and we're back. There are some as as well as this movie does at exploring the intricacies of what it's like to be an eleven year old girl with abundant resources and um parents who don't seem to be able to keep track of where their daughter is most of the time because she's off doing spy stuff and a New York version of New York that is very safe, very safe, and quite white. Um, which brings me to some of the issues that the movie has. So one of her spy targets is the Hong Fat family, and she says something like, oh, they have a son, Frankie. He's cool American style, and then the parents are cool Chinese style, and then she like makes a comment about how the parents would rather have Frankie working in the store selling milk and bread and lizards. So it's this joke made at the expense of like this immigrant family and like, oh, this thing they do that's unfamiliar to me, it must be gross or it's weird, it's other does not age well, especially because it's like there's no I mean that's the end of there's no commentary. Like it's just like there's so many things and it sucks because I I wanted to believe better of this movie. Of there are so many things in this movie that Harriet is wrong about and then she learns that she's wrong and get some perspective on it. And you would think that this would be a great opportunity for you to be like, no, you're like a rich little white girl. You don't know what you're talking about here, Like, but it just it never comes for this um storyline. No, it does, unfortunately, not, does it not? UM. I was also kind of bummed that, um, I don't even she they give this character a name, but Marian's I guess, like sidekick. Yes, her name is Rachel. Yeah. I don't love how that character is treated as one of the only like non white students that we get to know, and that she's kind of like relegated to this sidekick role, and I also felt, I mean, Marian's character in general, I don't know how. I well, I guess I don't know how. There's another weird class thing happening here because we've got Sport who was very clearly from a low income family. We've got Harriet who is rich, but then Marian is even richer, and so she's the villain. It's like it's right, and it's like, I don't know, I know that like rich people technically have feelings that we're supposed to really care about it, but it was just that whole story a lote. I was just like, what is this like? Because it's like I don't want to It's just like a rich girl being mean to another rich girl and then being like, actually I should have thought more about the richer girl. And there you're just like, I don't know, who care about any of this because it's like demonizing extra extreme excessive wealth and marrying because they like have her say these really goofy things like, oh, horseback riding if you can afford it is a super fun activity. And then her idea for like a fun game that all the children can play is let's role play buying a Volvo. You'll pretend to be the rich couple, and you'll pretend to be the car salesman, and everyone's like, boo, you're an idiot. Um, so it's like kind of hates her, like, but then it's like, Harry, you're also rich, Like what do you like? She's like, I guess slightly less rich than Mary, and so Harry, it's like cool by everyone else. I don't know, Like I ended up just kind of shrugging because I'm just like, I don't I guess that we're I made to an extent, we're supposed to like just be like we love Harriet no matter what. But it's like, yeah, Harriet, like check yourself a little bit here. You're like you're in You're a three per center and Marian's a one percent er. What's the fucking difference? Everyone to relax. Also, during that scene where like all the children are pitching games that they might play, someone says something and then Harriet says, no, that's our word. She says the R word, which, again a very nineties thing to do, even a very like two thousand to some degree two thousands tens things to be like that word was being used very casually. It's still kicked around to this day, to our infinite frustration. UM, yeah, I was. That was I like jumped. I was like, no, no, there, how did you get here? How did you get in here? Can we talk about the queer reading of this story? Please? So I was doing. I've been known to do a little context corner myself every once in a while. Um, not to step on your toes, Jamie, I know. I'm so sorry. Don't worry, don't worry. But I was doing some reading and um, full disclosure, I have not read the book that this is adapted from. It was banned. It was, it was, it was so the author, Louise fitz Hugh, was a queer woman. The book has a pretty substantial queer following the way, and I think it has a lot to do with the way Harriet was described in the book and just various actions and behaviors of hers throughout the story. I wanted to read an excerpt from an article that I found from The Guardian entitled Harriet the Spy Helped Me come to terms with my queer identity by Cat Patrick. Quote Harriet the Spy blurred the lines between right and wrong in a way that liberated my nine year old brain as a kid who already felt left out by the mechanisms of femininity that everyone around me seemed to adopt with ease. Harriet was the blue denim baby Butch I needed among the endless Balderina narratives. Back then, I didn't have the words for what I felt fizzing through my inside, and even now, fifteen years after coming out, I'm only just learning to feel comfortable with how I present non binary Butch end quote. I recommend reading this entire article because the writer goes on to offer a queer reading on Harriet's spy route, the idea of having to tell you know, little white lies to survive, but also remaining true to yourself. All of these themes that are explored. Queer listeners. Let us know how the movie resonated with you and the book, if you've read it, if you could get your hands on one, if you can even get your hands on it. I think, I mean, as far as the movie goes, and we're we always want to know more about what our our queer listeners think and what your read is. But I think that like a strength of the movie is that it doesn't force heterosexuality on its child characters, like they're just being kids. There aren't like those constructs aren't. There's no external pressure for that really coming from any direction, which is very I didn't realize. I mean I didn't even I was like so refreshed by it. Then I'm like, wow, this really does happen in every other kid's movie because it just like is it makes create so much room in this story for interpretation and just doing other things, um by by not taking up too much real estate with like boy girl crushes, which is also just boring and bad writing. Yes, um, I have some context stuff on the production, please, yes, this movie there, I mean I pretty much love all of it. Uh So this was directed by a woman, A pretty young women as well. I think she was like twenty eight or twenty nine when she directed the movie. It was her first big production. Her name's Bronwyn Hughes. Everything I've read about her love She still is directing mostly like Prestige TV. Now. She directed a Better Call Soul episode this year like She's out here. But this was her first movie, and I just was really interested in how she was able to direct kids in a way that feels so organic. Because Caitlin and I have like joked around before like the way that some child actors are directed, it just does them no favors. And the way that some child characters are written does them no favors. But like here the spy feels like this big outlier and so um I wanted to learn more about her direction style, and everything I read about her was that they were just like she just had like the highest energy and she was like dancing with the kids all day, and so like takes what happened right after, like Michelle tracton Berg was like dancing around and then Brown when used to be like okay, now go, and that would like bring the energy into the scene. So here's a quote from Michelle Tractonburg about it. She says, I don't remember her not dancing on set and music was always playing. It was really cool and in terms of performance art, she was pretty ahead of her time. It was also a great way to direct children and keep things alive, and so I I just I don't know. I ended up finding a new director that I really want to see like more of her work just based off of and even like the pacing of it has like such a cool like jazzy kind of pacing and some of the shots you're like, oh, this is like kind of like art school for for a kid's movie. I like it. Yeah, thats just the colors, and like the tone of the whole thing is like it's like a little quirky but yet still like a little gritty at the same time, like you had that New York grit to it. And I agree. I just wanted to know more about her because I thought she did like a fabulous job. And it's really hard to direct kids. I mean, I'll tell you, Like when I was a kid, they would always just like there would be really good directors and really bad um and I recently had to direct a child and he's a bit younger, so that was even harder. But like it's it's a it's a big mighty task to take on. Yeah, and she just like kills it and brilliant and you have to imagine that having a female director on this movie made a big difference to and just like how do we see the kids? And so there's also two credited writers on this movie. One is a man named Douglas Petrie who has done a ton of mostly TV writing, but on shows with a pretty good reputation for representing women. You have. He was like a staff writer on Buffy the Vampire Slayer Forever, he wrote an Angel, He's written a lot of well regarded female comic book characters. I don't know about books don't at me. Uh. And then the other writer is Teresa Rebec, who is famous for she's like a legendary female mystery writer and is known for writing like mysteries that have like a feminist character at the center. So it seems like they just really brought together a really solid team of majority women to make this movie happen, and it's it feels like a great example of like a great product that you can get if you just kind of get some at least some of the right people in the room. I wonder how passionate they were and in finding the director and finding bron Wyn, like, how passionate they were about finding a female director for this film, because I think it could have been completely different film without a female director um and a per female perspective. And like you know, nowadays there it's it's a requirement for a lot of films, and so I I would just be curious in that time you know, how much of a stickler they wore for it, or if she was just the right you know, like who was pushing for it. It's interesting because I feel like, especially in this era, like Nickelodeon has kind of a better track record with how it's females characters are written and treated than you know, if if you're going pound for pound against Disney, which you know their history with women is maybe not so great. I was also kind of surprised that this movie was not particularly well reviewed. It was not at the time, and and a lot of this I will chalk up to, especially in the nineties, older white male film critics being like but and see anything. This wasn't for me, and then just kind of being like Sia, but yeah, it seems like it was a movie that was misjudged in its time as well, which is which was just, I guess kind of strange to me because I've truly never heard a bad word about this movie. But for going back to the original reviews, and I disagree with all of them, they're like, where's the mystery? Like there, she didn't even solve a mystery. I'm pissed. I had the same thought. Am I bad you're double campbook. But in any case, it's it's definitely I think a movie that's reputation has really like solidified over time. Apparently it didn't in the moment. I mean, it has to be a bit of a cult following, right, like a little bit, and I I think totally those weird you know that art feel that I think I think you mentioned earlier. It's like some people get it and some people don't. And the tone of this is really quirky, um, a little off kilter. And I feel like if you're if you know, you're not the blockbuster that they're looking for or the mainstream, it's not going to be well reviewed, but other people will get in. Yeah. I feel like the core that the intended audience of this movie got it, and like it wasn't written for old guys and so they perhaps did not get it. I also wanted to mention just because I'm like, this is interesting, Teresa Rebec she wrote the screenplay for the Halleberry Catwoman movie, and you're like, oh, my cinematic masterpiece, Catwoman. Yeah, so you know, people contain multitudes. They sure do. Um. I wanted to touch a little bit on some of the adults in the movie one. I appreciate that the teacher was not villainized the way that a lot of kids movies will vitainize educators. She was maybe made to seem a little oblivious, perhaps, but she wasn't this like mean authoritarian teacher the way that a lot of again, like kids movies will be like teacher bad um. And I understand, like the kids perspective perspective, sure teachers suck or sometimes they're hot. Something to consider hot question mark or not question mark. The teacher also magically disappears after cleaning up Harriet with the blue paint, which also gave me a slight panic attack. I was like, everybody, get off of her. She just disappears. Yeah, she's like, let's clean Harriet up. And then you know, Marian's like spill and then where's she? Where's the discipline? Um? But yeah, that was just a quick little thing I had. And then another quick, very quick moment in the movie, but I appreciated this. It's after Harriet has tormented her entire class and cut their hair off and strung a bra up on the flagpole and like all this stuff. She is at home and her parents come in and they are trying to figure out, like what's happening, why did she do this? And her dad comes in and he says something like I used to mess around in school too. He's like trying to make light of the situation, and then her mom says something like you always do that, you always make jokes, and then I have to come in here and be the grumpy one, which like, it's not what this movie is about at all. It's like this tiny little moment that you would probably blanket you miss it kind of thing, but I just appreciate that small attempt to show that it is in a like mother father household, it is often the mother who has to bear the kind of emotional burden and the emotional labor of like being the disciplinarian, whereas the dad gets to be like, um, goofyld fun. I don't know how to discipline my kids. It's not my job. I think we talked about this a lot in the Mrs Doultfire episode, and that's also true of I mean, every family show I remember watching as a kid was like, you know, shrewy mom that occasionally has a scene that's like, but I love you, and then like goofy, Dad, Right, it's cannon it maybe I remember my dad used to get really mad about it. He's just like, I don't know, I mean, it's not really a fair of like who cares. But he was just like, not all dads are stupid. I'm like, yeah, how does it feel to be negatively portrayed in media? Dad? I just like just the mom acknowledging that, and like acknowledging that frustration of like you get to be the fun one and I have to come in here and be the grumpy one. Like I found that just to be a little, a little sliver of something I enjoyed, just a nugget, just leave it there. And and and I liked that you do get a scene with Harriet and her mother where like Harriet, I mean we we as an audience already know that Harriet's parents are very flawed parents that don't really understand their child because they haven't spent time with her and listened to her, Like if they had spent the same kind of time that Golly had, they would under have a better understanding of her. And I like, I mean, it's just like another shade of gray that this movie shows you with, like how kids relate to people in their lives. That I thought was really nice of like her mother admitting that she was wrong and that she doesn't always understand her daughter and that like that can be true and she can be trying to be better, and you know, you hope that moving moving forward that like, I don't know, it's it's nice that Harriet got because Harriet dies does like deserve an apology from for how her parents treat her, and it would have been nice for it to come from both parents. But I did like that mother daughter scene where you even though I'm like this mom needs to get it together, You're also like, well, okay, she acknowledges that she, you know, has work to do and that both parents have work to do. And I thought it was handled, you know, pretty well. Yeah, for sure. There's another one last little thing is the movie and this is like hardly anything, but there are two different scenes in the movie where the kids are watching like you're developing bodies going through puberty. This is how it's going to be, like really old videos, so they're like from the sixties or something, um. And then like the fact that Harriet pretty much body shames one of her classmates for like, having grown boobs over the summer is again not something that we admire or recommend children do, but it is again just such a a realistic thing because like you know, as young kids, their bodies are changing, they're going through puberty. They don't know what's happening. They if they see someone else going through puberty first they think it's weird and gross. And like again, every basically everything that Harriet does and her thoughts, well, some of them are like pretty violent and I don't condone at all, like the like the kid with the stocks should hang himself. Um, that other girl someone should just kick her. Like those obviously are not okay and there's no justification for them. But other ones, I'm just like, of course you think that, because that's such an eleven year old understanding of bodies or of like socioeconomic class and you know, just different things like that. So while some of them were quite troubling and violent, other ones I'm like, I mean, I don't like that she said this, but I understand because it's super realistic. Yeah, it's like it's complicated, it is coated with Harry at the spot. You know why that just speaks to like it's so refreshing to see like a complicated depiction of a little girl of any female ki. I mean we like female characters are so often written to be so flat and stock and stereotypical that it is nice to I mean we talk about like women should be allowed to be mediocre in movies, women should be allowed to like funk up and make mistakes, and like that's really most of what Harriet is doing is like having to learn major life lessons, having to apologize for various misdeeds things like that, and um, yeah, yeah, I think it's it's actually very refreshing to get to see like a little girl go through that arc. It's true, this movie is fun. Yeah, kudis to the you know, like Nickelodeon for because they're saying like age nine is like the common sense age and like most would be too pure, you know, and not allow any of these issues to really come to the forefront of the film themselves. Like yeah, I I really yeah, it's I'm like, it's very hard to imagine like Disney and taking a female protagonist this seriously, So I'm glad that Harriet was already there for us. Does anyone else have any final thoughts about the film. I think so. The last thing I want to say is some anist icon Agatha k Plumber a k A. Eartha Kid's character who we own she SUPs to be like Agatha Chris. I was like, is this an Agatha Christie reference? What is Eartha Kid doing in there? I like, there, don't know, but one of the few lines of dialogue she has is she's talking on the phone with someone and she says, I have the secret of life. You simply crawl into your bed and never ever leave it again, which in the quarantine is something that I have been doing, so thank you for that. I get the k Plumber, I got, like, Hey, I'm just like, I feel like it's an act because especially because it's like a female mystery story, and like this has to be some weird I get the Christie at least reference. I'm guessing, Yeah, maybe Shrug does Harriet the Spy past the Bechtel Test by any chance? Yeah? All the time. Lots of different combinations of characters. Harriet talks to Golly, to Janey, to her mom, to her teacher, to marry In. Yeah, lots of different combinations of characters, and they're taught. They're not talking about boys or men hardly ever. And there's also non Harriet combos to like Janey talks to her mom and Maryan talks to Rachel, and there's Yeah, there's a lot of good this. This handily pass the test. Absolutely. Let's rate it on her Nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representation of women. I would I would give this, I think like a four. Um. I'll take some points off for the very nineties punching down humor and language that we see here and there, especially because I read that in the book it's an Italian family that she spies on. It's the De Santi family, UM. So the adaptation deliberately changed it to the hung fat family, UM, and then made Harriet be kind of racist. So you know, you don't get a nipple for that. You don't get a nipple for that. Also, just like I mean, even though the movie does address class, it is still like and here's this you know, wealthy white girl and her story because that's the story that you know, we feel needs to be told more than other people's stories. So, you know, not not a perfect film or story, but I do think it but much closer than most movies we've covered, for sure. So I'll give it four nipples. I'll give one to Janey, Okay, I'll give one to Janey the character, and I'll give one to Vanessa Chester. Um, thanks again so much to her for chatting with us and giving her input. Um. I will give one to your voice, Jenna that is present in the playgrounds or the you know, the various scenes. Um. And I'll give one to Harriet. No. Actually, I'm gonna give my fourth nipple to earth a Kit and her um just wanting to stay in bed for the rest of her life can relate. Yeah, I'm gonna go with four nipples on this too. I think for nine this movie does very well, but it still has I mean, as we discussed, it has its shortcomings, it has its dated nous, and it has, as most children's media, a fixation on uh Rich White family above any other family. It loses the nipple for that, But in terms of creating a fleshed out, um not hyper sexualized female character that makes mistakes that learned from those mistakes, maybe not as mistakes, many mistakes as we would have liked, but more than I expected to be honest. Yeah, just like has a full life and is allowed a funk up and learn and have interests that are not hyper feminine and and eat mayonnaise sandwiches and ship like. It's all great, um and and I do generally I like the small class commentary. I mean, you know, probably could go a little further, but it's a great movie. I really like it. I feel like it. It super holds up in most ways. So I'll give one nipple to Jenna's omniscient voice. I'll give one nipple to Michelle Trachtenberg, one to Vanessa Chester, and I'll complete earth the kids set, give her give her another nip. Incredible, Jenna, what about you? Yeah, I would give it for nipples. One nipple definitely does not get given any any attention. Yeah, for you know, the little uh I don't want to call them slip ups, but the shortcomings with the you know, a socio economic class and this young girl of really who has quite a lot of privilege. But I do I do want to say, like I I give the four for the representation for kids and females to be specific, young girls who like Harriet have sort of found their purpose in the world in a way. Like as a writer and it's just trying to figure out where it fits in the world. And to have a kid who has purpose. I think that's why we, you know, as kids related to her at least I did as a young girl who had a purpose to or I wanted her purpose in that moment in time, and I think that was not and it still is not represented enough um in media. So I definitely give the nipples to Rosie, to Jake Cameron, to Michelle and to Vanessa. Awesome, Jenna, thank you so much for being here, for joining us today. Thanks for having me so much fun to um break down the Harry at the spot Absolutely what would you like to plug? Yeah, I'm I'm mainly on Instagram at Jennashkowitz and my last name is spelled U s h ko w I t Z. Yeah, we have. I have a podcast called Showman Pysically Recap podcast. You can find out where Refined Podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, um and podcast one. And uh yeah, that's that's pretty much awesome. I didn't mention before, but I am a Glee Stan I've seen all of Glee and I love it all of it. I think you were the seasons. Were there six? Oh yeah, I lied. I think I only made it to five. I'm so sorry. So you were part of the pretty good No no, no, that's that was pretty good. Thank you. But it started long before that. Oh that's awesome. Thank you so much. Well, of course, I you can follow. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. At betel Cast, you can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon By going to patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast and subscribing for five dollars a month. You get to bonus episodes plus our entire back catalog of bonus episodes. Hefty, uh, we and we. You can get our merch at public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast if you feel like we're in stuff. And thank you for listening. Oh and thanks again to Vanessa Chester for taking the time to talk to us. Be sure to follow her on social media and go back and listen to our episode with her on the movie Book Smart. She's the best. Yeah. And with that, the spy with social distancing, that's kind of what spying is. It's true, it's just true. Observing people at a distance. Spying is hot right now? He reasonal social distance sir, that's right, all right, Bye bye bye