Temple Grandin: Part 1: Charting a New Frontier - Unleashing the Power of Autistic Minds in Society and Industry

Welcome to Why Not Me the World? Podcast hosted by
Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. Join
us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will
make you laugh, some will make you cry. Real life
people who will inspire and show that you are not
alone in this world. Hopefully you gain more awareness, acceptance,
and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi,
I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to Why Not Me the World.
Today's episode is a very special one. It is the
first episode for the beginning of my second year of podcasting.
I want to thank everyone that supports it, shares it,
listens to it, and of course those that have been
on it in the first year of its existence. Today's
episode is the first of two parts. She's known throughout
the world as an autistic thought leader, an author, animal behaviorist,
and she was portrayed in twenty ten by Claire Danes
in the Emmy and Golden Globe Award winning self titled
biographical film released by HBO. I'm so honored to have
Temple Grandin on my show today, So thanks for coming on.
Thank you so much for having me.
Oh the pleasure saw mine So one of my first
questions I'd like to ask is you was diagnosed at
an early age and it was about I think three
years before you could start talking. What's one of your
first childhood memories and what does it mean to you?
The gun into therapy by two and a half years old, okay.
And I didn't get full speech until four okay. Now
slow to responding, slower in my speech until about age five, okay.
And I can remember the absolute frustration of not being
able to communicate.
Okay.
And I would pitch a big tantrum because I couldn't
tell people how I if I wanted something right.
And I remember of the day I didn't want to.
Wear a hat and I just was screaming and throwing
out the car window we were driving to the speech
therapy school.
Okay.
And the first thing you've got to do is give
these little kids a way to communicate.
Sure, you know it's just a picture poort, but something right.
So they communicate some needs like they need to use
the toilet, they are they're cold. You'll just basic things
like that.
Okay. So now you just mentioned school. Once you have
the ability to speak and communicate the way that you
wanted to. Then you transition to school, So how was
your school experience?
Let transition into a small local school into a normal
first kindergarten class at age five, and when for half
a day it was very small, and that was important.
I would not have worked in a thirty kid classroom.
I would have had to have had an aid, and
mother and the teacher worked together. Okay, the rules were
the same at home and school really really good. I
had a tantrum like in first or second grade on
there will be no television that night, whether it happened
to school or it happened at home. And I was
very good at art, okay, and my mother always encouraged
my ability at art. And I'd draw the same horse's
head over and over again, mother's old straw, the whole horse.
Then she'd encourage using other media than pencil, like maybe
watercolor paints. Doing different always a broadening. You know, if
a kid is fixated on a certain type of truck,
then let's other kinds of trucks. There's other trains other
than Thomas the tank engine. Sure you want to broaden it, right,
and you can tap into that fixation, but broaden and
develop the area of strength, and so I had a
good time in elementary school. High school was a disaster
of bullying and teasing, just a disaster. And the reason
I got through the primary school or elementary school without
bullying is Missus Deech, the head teacher told the other
students that I had a disability that was not visible,
like a wheelchair. They explained that to the other children.
So I managed to get through sixth grade up twelve
years old without being bullied. And high school was just horrible.
And the only places I was not bullied was where
there was a shared interest I was. I played just
picked up volleyball, and then then I got kicked out
of a regular school for throwing a book at a girl.
I was actually going to ask you about that.
I went to special high school.
I was terrible students, so he put me to work
on taking care of the horse barn, cleaning stalls every day.
But if I went riding with my friend, then I
was not bullied. Okay, friends who shared interests. I cannot
emphasize enough. My science dator had a model rocket club. Okay,
you know today it's going to be robotics club. Sure,
but those are the kind of places where a child
would not be bullied.
Friends who shared interest super important.
Okay, you brought up your teen years and being in
high school. So that's one of the toughest times is
during the high school years, and especially for females.
It's a worst part of my life, absolute worst part
of my life. I had reporters to ask me, what
would you tell your younger self.
I tell my teenage self. Oh, after your teenage years,
things will get a lot better.
Okay, So during your formative years, did anything happen or
what did that do to help you become what you
are today?
When you say formative years me younger school.
Years, probably your teen years between thirteen and nineteen.
Well, I it was very good at building things. I
did a lot of that kind of activity.
Okay.
One thing I learned those at the boarding so I
learned how to work.
A lot of autistic kids today are not learning work skills, okay,
out of the fact that basically I was in charge
of the school's horse bark Okay.
I cleaned stalls, I put them in and out, I
fed them.
Okay.
A lot of autistic kids aren't learning work skills. I'm
seeing too many fully verbal, smart autistic teenagers who have
never gone shopping, They've never ordered food in a restaurant,
they don't.
Have a bank account.
Okay, but to.
Learn these skills, sure, and they're not being taught.
Okay. So you managed to get through your high school years.
Then after that you found your way going to college. Yes,
So how was the transition from high school to college?
How did that work out? Oh? Way much better.
My science teacher when I was in high school got
me motor to study. Now, I couldn't do higher math,
one of these visual thinkers.
I can't do higher math. I failed the SAT in algebra.
I went into college on probation, but at this point
I had decided to turn it around and study.
I was motivated now to study.
Okay.
When I failed my first math was I got tutoring
and I managed to get through it with a ton
of tutoring. And then I majored in psychology to avoid
the math classes. And I had some bullying even in college.
Wow.
And one of the things that helped me was, I
think it was in my junior year or so, there
was a big variety show that my college put on.
I went to small college and only had five hundred
few hundred students, and I went in this variety show
that they had and I made scenery for it, and
I sung a silly song that helped my social life
a whole lot. Okay, I can't that's a shared interest.
I can't emphasize that enough. And then I went out
to my aunt's ranch. That got me up. But I
was going out there even when I was in high school.
But I can't emphasize enough exposing these kids to enough
different things so they can get interested in the things
that can become a career.
Right.
Well, my cattle exposure all started as teenager.
Okay, So you learned by being around cattle on farms
while you was a teenager, and then that grew and
you went to college. When did you decide that this
was going to be a calling and how did that happen?
Well, I've then started the year towards a master's degree
in experimental psychology that did not work out.
Okay, So I went over.
To the animal science department and ran into a professor
named Philip Style. Okay, I got to thank Philip for
getting me into that.
He let me go on field trips with his food
technology class, even though it wasn't enrolled in the class.
He's one of these professors that were teaching was his
primary thing, right, and he helped you make the switch.
I gotta really thank him for doing that.
Okay.
I got to thank mister Carlock, my science teacher. I
can't emphasize how important these mentors are. And you see,
by this time, I got decent grades. I was serious, right,
and I got a C in statistics. Had to be tutored.
I had another graduate student tutor mate.
Okay.
And one of the things I did right is when
I failed my first quiz, I got help.
Okay.
Too many students today wait until they're failing the end
of the course before they ask for help, right, I
asked for help when I failed the first quiz.
Okay. So now you've made the transition into the cattle.
When did you start to realize that this just maybe
your calling to help change the way people thought about
treating cattle humanly.
First of all, I just was interested in designing equipment.
And I went out theiry feed yard and I worked cattle,
and I saw good things in the designs, bad things
in the designs, and I kind of thought I could
design a self managing cattle handling system.
Okay.
And then for another thing I did for job standpoint,
it was really good.
Okay.
There's a scene in the Temple Brand, an HBO movie,
where I get the lot the editor's card from our
local state farm magazine. Okay, and I start writing for
that magazine. That was very important for my career. And
I had the guts to go up.
And get the card. Okay.
A lot of people wouldn't have had You know why
you had the guts because in the fifties, right, oh,
elementary school kids had sell candy for charity.
Yes, you had to talk to people.
Elementary kids the seven or eight years old in my generation,
when the parents had a party, you put your good
clothes on and you greeted the guests and your little
host and hostesses.
Right. That taught going up to people and talking to them.
That's so good. I'm really glad that you brought up
your HBO movie. Hollywood has a reputation at some times
of putting some things in that just embellished the facts
a little bit. Was you happy with the HBO movie
they did and was it pretty true what really happened
in your life?
Let's talk about the stuff that's absolutely accurate. Okay, it
shows visual thinking absolutely accurately. I also discussed visual thinking
in my book Early autobiography, Thinking and Pictures.
I've got another book that just came out on visual thinking.
My visual thinking is shown accurately in that movie, all right,
and the projects I designed are all accurate.
Those two things are really accurate.
The main people and at the ranch, mister Carlak and
my mother are shown very nicely. Okay, that's on the
most important stuff.
Yeah, they had a wild horse and now it was
kind of excessively crazy, but the things that were really
important were accurate. Also, Claire Days, I perfectly imitated my
voice and mannerisms. I gave her every ancient VHS tap
tape I could find for her to study.
Okay, So once they did the movie and it was
out there, your life got exposed more to the world.
How did that change your life? And what happened? And
after the movie came out, well, that a whole lot.
Busier was speaking engagements, Sure.
And I have. I was just out in Illinois. Has
some parents come up to me.
I could come to me in an airport, right, tell
me that they heard one of my talks.
Ten years ago.
It read one of my books ten years ago, and
their kid is doing really well in their job and
they thank me.
Yeah.
One of the problems I'm seeing on the fully verbal
end of the autists spectrum is parents do too much
for their kids, overprotect them.
All right.
They aren't learning enough basic skills. Okay, like okay, like
ask their question at the conference. Mom will start to
ask the question, and I go give the mic to
your son. Yeah, and I get that son to talk
to the whole room.
Right, ask his question. Yeah. That's awesome. That's the building
upon the person. Yeah. Yes, And I'm so glad that
you brought that up. I've spoken with so many parents
over the last year, and the common statement that I
get is that they have to love their kids unconditionally
and show them that they can have a decent life.
I think you're the perfect example to show this. You've
written books, you've gone to college, you're one of the
top ten professors in the country. You do public speaking
around the world, you change the complete industry of cattle,
and you had the documentary about your life. People look
at you as such an inspiration. I had one autistic
woman tell me that you're her hero because of all
the things that you do. So I think what you've
done shows all these people that may have gone through
or are going through some of the same things that
you have. You give them hope because you did it,
so they feel they can. Well, that's true.
And the thing is, there's some accommodations you do need, okay,
and one of the things that work that's really important.
I cannot remember long verbal sequences of information.
Okay.
So if I have to work at Baulmart and I
have to close out the cash register, please give me
a pilot's check list, okay, with the steps to close
out the cash register right, the written bullet point directions
save a lot of jobs.
Okay. That's great. So now I'm really glad that you
brought up the topic about jobs. I was speaking to
a person just last week and he was telling me
that in the autistic world, at least seventy to eighty
percent are either unemployed or underemployed. That's true. So what
can we as a society do to help them integrate
into the workforce and show these people that are actually
hiring that autistic people can contribute to their bottom line.
Well, and autism comes in three types, right, what the
fully verbal, the object visualizer like me who thinks in
fotablistic pictures which are show in the movie. We're good
at mechanical things anything mechanical art, photography, and animals. Then
you have a mathematical type okay, thinks in patterns, and
then a word thinker that's very, very good with facts
about their favorite subject. Now, I worked with a lot
of people that were definitely autistic, owned metal fabrication shops
and they were.
Inventing mechanical equipment.
But these are people my age, my generation, and I
have granddads and grandmoms come up to me all the
time where they were employed in good jobs because they
learned how to work at an early age. They had
paper routes, okay, and we got to find substitutes for
paper routes where they're working for somebody outside the family, okay,
like maybe a church volunteer job, or walking the neighbor's
dog or helping out at the farmer's market something. That's
because a lot of the fully verbal ones were employed.
I think one of the worst things they did in
some of the school was taking out hands on classes.
Yeah, I agree, that taught a lot of people, a
lot of good trades.
And I discussed that in visual thinking.
That's for my kind of thinker, right, But then half
the people that build computers and all that kind of
stuff are probably on the spectrum. Yeah, and program computers.
They are the mathematical side of it. And then you
have the word thinker, and where those people can be
really good and there's been some real successes is specialized
retail because they'll memorize every car on the lot and
help somebody buy the right car, not the most expensive car,
the right car.
Sure, And there's been some big successes with auto dealerships,
really big successes. I'm selling sporting goods, selling specialized business insurance,
selling specialized banking products I did at Top of the
bank and something that's highly specialized, and their knowledge is
appreciated by the customer.
Yes, that's so true. Now. That is one thing that
I have taught with with numerous people, and that is
about people that are so focused and how they will
dig in and learn everything they can about that particular subject.
That's right.
So what can we do as a society to help
people that are that focused and are willing to put
the time in to learn and make that transition into
the workforce.
Well, we need to be where we're really falling downs
on the job front. I'm seeing students graduating with honors
from college and not handle the workplace right because they
never had any working skills. Now, ideally, I'd like to
have two summer jobs under that built before they graduate
my school.
Okay, And I.
Want to emphasize it's never too late to start. But
a sudden, you know, Okay, all of a sudden we
throw them into the workplace. That's not going to work.
The other thing we need to be doing is let's
just get rid of all the interviews and things like
that and work on backdoors in the jobs. Okay, because
I sold the jobs, I learned to sell my work.
Here's one of my drawings right here, it's in thinking
and pictures.
Okay, I would show off my work.
I learned to sell my work rather than myself.
Sure, well, that makes perfect sense. That's what I did.
And the thing is, we need the skills right right now.
We've got a huge skill loss situation in people that
can fix mechanical equipment and invent mechanical equipment, like, for example,
you want to build a chicken processing plant. You've got
to buy the equipment from Holland Owes. Back to ninth grade.
A kid can pick university or pick tech. We stick
our nose up at tech.
Yeah, unfortunately, that's so true.
And there's a lot of stuff we're not building. Lots
of food processing equipment comes out of Italy.
Right, and.
These for the visual type of person like me, those
are perfect jobs. Sure, then you have the Silicon Valley
computer type jobs.
Good for the mathemat mathematicians.
Some bad stuff just recently elementary school, fourth grader, third grader.
Make them do baby math over and over again.
They get bored and they turn into behavior problem. Right,
that kid that's a brainiac in math.
These we moved ahead in math. Right, Absolutely, I'll make
them do boring baby math. Move them ahead.
Yes, yes, it might need help and reading, but move
them a head in math.
Right. It comes down to common sense.
Think we're losing common sense?
Yes, I totally agree.
And I think common sense.
Is visual thinking.
Okay, well we have a school system now it's screening
out visual thinkers. Right, I don't some states I couldn't
graduate high school because I can't pass ELF.
Never have Yeah, right, that totally makes sense. So once
we get past that, we have another big issue for
autistic people, and that's housing. Everyone I talk with in
just about every state says that housing for autistic people
is so slim and it's a real big issue for everyone.
Well, it's problem with enough low income housing.
That's a huge problem.
Like in the fancy ski resorts, Right, people run the
lifts and stuff like that. They can't afford the housing. Right,
These are non autistic people can't afford the housing.
Yeah, exactly.
And then I read a hideous article just the other
day about these investors buy up a whole bunch of
apartment thillings and using computerized systems that vict tenants.
I was just about look very angry when I read this.
You're stealing. Yeah, different states have different ages, but usually
between eighteen and twenty one they age out for being
able to get help. That's right. So how can we
help those that are diagnosed in a later time in
life to learn because because I had one lady that
she said she was diagnosed like around forty five, and
she said, I lost four decades of my life because
it took me three to five years to figure it out.
And then fifties was great and she just turned sixty
and she's had a great, great ten years. So how
do we help those that feel alone and feel kind
of cast out, Well, those ones.
That are diagnosed later in life. I have a book
called Different Not Less, where eighteen people diagnosed later and
I tell about their experiences.
Okay, he's all had jobs, all different kinds of jobs.
Yes, helped with relationships. That's where the diagnosis really really
made a difference. Their relationships became a whole lot easier. Sure,
and that's something that's really important.
Yeah. I think that's very important because I think one
of the things they need to learn is that they
don't need to be forced into society. They can fit
into it all by themselves. Well, that's right.
And another problem is I had horrible issues with anxiety,
which I discussed in my earlier book Thinking in Pictures. Okay,
and I've been on antidepressant medication for forty years. Okay,
and all the stress related health issues I had with
colitis and stuff cleared up.
And I would.
Recommend if you have a lot of anxiety to read
the chapter and hear about the medication, because I don't
think i'd even be alive today if I hadn't gone
on the right medication.
Now, way too many drugs are giving out the little kids.
It's disgusting, absolutely.
But a little bit of the right thing can sometimes
really make a difference. Because my problem with the constant
anxiety was biological, okay.
And my fear system was just turned on for no reason.
Right, biological right. So now I'm really glad that you
brought up the anxiety because that kind of leads me
into my next question for you. This concerns a very
serious issue and unfortunately affects a lot of artistic people
around the world. The numbers are staggering on this, and
we have to do something about it, because if we
don't change this, then everything we've talked about doesn't matter.
I have read that autistic people make up one percent
of the total population in the world, an alarming sixty
six percent of the people have thought about this, with
eleven percent actually following through with it, which makes it
the second most leading cause of death among autistic people
in the world, and that's unfortunately suicide. How can we
as a society help them so that they can change
everything and look at life a little differently so they
can have a better life without all the anxiety.
Well, getting them into decent jobs, because well, I worked
twenty five years in heavy construction, Okay, it would have
been seventies, eighties and ninety. I was out on construction projects,
supervising installation of equipment that I had designed, right, working
with people that owned shops that were autistic. Okay, And
they had decent jobs. And I'm not going to say
their lives were totally stress free. They weren't, right, but
they're definitely not committing suicide.
Right.
I mean, this is one of the reasons why we
need to get people into.
Really good careers.
Yes, And I tell business people we need their skills.
I have been on very questionable elevators lately.
Okay.
I found that elevator the other day in a hotel,
their brand new hotel. Piece of white paper in there
for the inspection certificate. Okay, it's not getting serviced. Elevators
making weird screeching noises.
Wow.
And for the visual fingers like me, you can't do math, right,
Elevator mechanic could be a perfect job.
Airplane mechanic.
Right, there's all this trouble with bowing, Right, who do
you want assembling your rudder?
Bolts.
Yeah, I'd rather have somebody autistic putting together the rudder
pedal mechanism. The pilot goes to lay in the plane
and the rudder pedals don't work. I yeah, I want
to steer the plane absolutely. And what I learned working
in construction is that I worked with a lot of
mechanical people that were definitely autistic, and they were the
best people you had right for building things, figuring out
mechanical stuff, taking care of it. Yeah, we need skills,
and then you have the mathematicians. Let's go back to
the food processing plant.
The mathematicians will design the boilers and refrigeration, and the
visual thinkers like me build and invent mechanical devices for
food processing.
Yeah, exactly. I spoke with one person and he said
that if you walk into a pharmaceutical lab, chances are
if you throw a dart, you'll hit someone that's working
there that is definitely autistic.
Well, exactly, we need the skills.
Yes, statistic mind gets really interested in the stuff they do, right,
I mean I just well that's out on a plan.
One time talk next to a lady and we talked
about tilt up warehouse construction for the entire flight.
Now, that's a good flight.
Yes, yes, yes, that's just so interesting, right, right, it's
just so interesting. Right. So, now you've seen the best
of autistic world, and you've seen the worst of the
autistic world. Have you seen it change since you was
a young child to now? Because I know that it's
changed dramatically, but we still got a long ways to go.
Well, A big thing when I was a young child
is that they blamed mothers for That's absolute rubbish. That's
gone away. Okay, and we're doing a better job now
with little kids. You know, you're on certain states. Some
states have very good programs for early intervention with little
children that are not speeding. Yeah, but where we're falling
down it's a transition to the work work.
Okay.
They're not really any life skills in the high schools.
It's all you know, academics.
Right.
What good is having a Magna cum laudy debris if
you just end up in your bedroom playing video games exactly,
that's not very good, right, And these kids are not
becoming video game designers, right. You had to get them
off the video games. Something's been very successful auto mechanics Okay,
it's actually been very successful and they've gotten good jobs.
And I tell business people, we need these people. You
live in a fancy a part the building, was you
like the water system to work in that.
Building, right, right exactly.
But to have somebody that cares about the water system
absolutely right. Now, we have computer systems failing in weird ways.
Right.
A T broke down, yeah for four hours, and it
broke my United messaging thing for United Airlines in a
very strange way. Wow, it's perfectly in Minneapolis and I
only get one text message in Denver, one to another city.
I got half the text messages. Well that's very weird.
Yeah, yeah it is.
It breaks it differently in different places.
Well, I can tell you why.
Because you've got old systems on top of old systems
on top of old systems, right, and they're starting to
fall apart now because the people who made the old systems.
Were tiring right, right exactly.
Then they can remember, well, we used some forttran to
do this. And I can't believe some of the antique
equipment I've seen. I was at the airport recently and
watched this file drawer opened up behind one of the
gate desks. It's an an antique teletype.
Machine in there. Wow.
Wow, I'm going I looked at that and I'm going,
you're using that antique You've kind of kidding, Yeah, major airline.
Yeah, I mean remember which airport was? Was not Denver,
my own airport.
Yeah, but I just saw it.
I just now in this figure of this drawer opening
like a bioline cabinet, this antique in it, like something
I used in the late seventies and early eighties.
Right. I think one of the things that we absolutely
have to get out there is for people like me
a year ago, I knew nothing about autism, and I
think that people need to get a better understanding because
I think they have this perception that if you are
diagnosed autistic, then it's a death sentence, and it's so
far from that and in the real.
World, well, it's a different operating system. Might be a
good way putting in. Einstein didn't speak into lage three,
he'd be labeled autistic today, exactly a Langelo autistic. Steve
jobs Ewan Musk's come out that he autistic, right, He's
also very badly bullied as a child and thrown down
the stairs and has face smashed.
Yeah, yeah, there's just no reason for that. No, So
how do we take and get there? As a society.
We need to figure this out because everyone needs to
learn and understand more. I've always said that you can
accept something because you're aware of it. But just because
you're aware of it doesn't mean you understand. And that's
the biggest problem because if you don't understand, you can't
relate to it. So how do we bridge that gap
for understanding?
Well, that's what I've tried to do in my books.
I was write a lot of practical stuff like okay,
for don't don't burden the autistic person with long strings
of verbal sequential information. Make pilots checklists, right, let's keep
them out of the rapid mullitasking chaos jobs, or to
takeout window right, some things like that, get rid of
led lights at flicker.
See, those are very very basic things that you can do.
Right.
Having been somebody that worked in a very high end
skilled trades, sure the best people they had were autistic.
Yeah, at what's happening now?
Like you take meat plans for example, Now, right, doyn't
have anybody.
There that can fix anything?
Well, everything you said certainly does make a lot of
great sense.
I take a very practical approach and there's no theory
in my.
Talks, absolutely, and this has been a great conversation. I
hope that everyone listening has enjoyed it as much as
I've enjoyed bringing it to you. So with that said,
remember next week is the second part of the interview
with Temple, and mark it down on your calendar because
we're going to be covering more great topics. Thanks again
for coming on to the first episode of my second
year of podcasting, and I look forward to having you
for even more. Thanks for taking the time out of
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