Making science careers more accessible to people with disabilities

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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In this episode, we look at how careers

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in science

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can be made more

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accessible

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to people with disabilities.

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Our guest is Francesca

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DiDato,

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who is co author of a white paper

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called towards a fully

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inclusive

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environment

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for Disabled People in STEM,

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which was published earlier this year by The

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UK's

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National Association

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of Disabled Staff Networks.

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A physicist at Lancaster University,

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Francesca is in conversation

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with Physics World's Michael Banks.

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Oh, hi, Frankie. Hi. It's great that you

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could join us today on the podcast and

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great to have you to talk about this

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new important report from The UK's National Association

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of Disabled Staff Networks.

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So entitled Towards a Fully Inclusive Environment for

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Disabled People in STEM,

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the report examines the many issues facing disabled

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people in science.

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Written by the association STEM Action Group,

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which consists of people from across The UK

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and and across different disciplines,

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the report offers solutions to those issues while

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at the same time raising awareness of the

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inequity

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and discrimination

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experienced by disabled people in science.

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So, Frankie, one thing I was really struck

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by when looking through the report

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was that while twenty two percent of working

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age adults in The UK are disabled,

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less than seven percent in science have a

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disability.

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So what do you think lies behind this

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difference?

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Okay. There are a number of different factors

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that are at play here.

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There's firstly, the issues around disclosure, whether someone

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feels safe to disclose that they are disabled

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or not, especially in the climate that we're

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in where there's a lot of negativity

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coming out of politics, out of the media,

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around people's perceptions, there's society's

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perceptions of disabled people,

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and there's also

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the environment within academia itself and people being

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afraid

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of going, hey, what if I lose my

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job if, I disclose I'm disabled, which is

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very much the case in quite a lot

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of cases.

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There's also the matter of whether someone identifies

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as disabled or not.

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Like, someone,

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might have what's

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legally,

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disability,

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but they might not see themselves as being

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disabled.

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There's also the issues around

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discrimination,

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the societal

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climate that we're in, as I was alluding

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to earlier,

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with the way that people are perceived,

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if they disclose that they are disabled. And

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for that, I include,

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people who are neurodivergent

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and people who have chronic long term health

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conditions.

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The,

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there's matters around discrimination

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and,

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about that, which also again ties into the

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societal attitudes.

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There's also the physical digital barriers, whether the

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environment

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is accessible or not.

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Can you get the support that you need

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in order to be able to do your

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job?

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And there's also

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the matter of funding issues

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and

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whether you can get funded. And unfortunately it's

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very often the case

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that disabled people ended

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up being

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stuck in lower grade roles and struggle to

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progress through their careers. And one of the

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things that we've identified is that where it's

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around the 7% mark for early

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career researchers

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and academics,

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that

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percentage decreases the more senior

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that you look. So within sort of like

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higher,

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management,

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senior roles,

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senior academics,

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that figure drops to more like 4.5%.

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Wow. It's really stark, isn't it? Mhmm. And

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and in the report, it also outlines, you

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know, you touched you've touched on them,

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in the previous answer a little bit, but

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it outlines the many barriers that are faced

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by disabled people in science. You know, these

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are social,

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physical, digital, and and financial.

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And maybe we can go through through these

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one by one. So what what about some

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of the kind of physical barriers and what

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what what are some instances there?

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Okay. That can be the building access. So

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is a laboratory space

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accessible?

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Can you get into the building even? Such

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as, is there

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a ramp access that's suitable?

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Even sort of like the inclination

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of the

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ramp can

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cause

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a building

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to be completely inaccessible for, say, someone with

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reduced mobility or someone in a wheelchair?

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Are there

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handrails?

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What's the surface made of?

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Are there accessible

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doors?

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Can you press a button to get you

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entry even into the building? And when you're

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dealing with a lot of very heavy

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fire doors,

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those can be a massive barrier

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where even if someone is walking but has

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reduced say muscle strength,

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they will say be reliant on someone else

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to open the door for them. And so

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even getting into the room can be an

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issue. And that's for laboratory spaces, teaching spaces,

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the works.

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There's also issues within offices.

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Are there sensory issues going on such as,

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physical

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issues with the desk heights,

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the surfaces that,

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textures of the fabrics that,

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chairs are.

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What about lighting conditions? Are those suitable?

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If someone,

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is say sensitive to light,

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for whatever reason, be it an allergy

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or is prone to migraines or they need

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good light levels, say for example, if they

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have reduced,

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vision,

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they might need better lighting. So is that

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suitable? That can be a barrier. What about

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adjustable

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desks? Are the desks too high for someone

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who's, say, in a chair or someone who's

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shorter in stature?

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Can

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they even sit at the desk?

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Are the shelves too high? Or say fume

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cupboards? There are a huge amount

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of range of what

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physical barriers there are in place.

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Mhmm. And I guess some some of these,

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you know, during the construction of a building

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itself, for example, in a bit of that,

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that these

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these types of barriers are removed at that

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point when, you know, during the planning process,

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for example, I guess it's much more difficult

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to implement these later on, you know, when

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when a building is already existing, for example.

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So I guess that those kind of considerations

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need to be taken in, you know, as

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soon as as soon as possible, I guess.

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Absolutely. It really is so much easier and

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more cost effective as well, which a lot

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of places don't consider and being a part

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of the

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equation really,

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is thinking about inclusion,

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from the get go, which it really should

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be. And

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it's really startling just how many places,

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even in this day and age,

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will leave the accessibility

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part

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until being an afterthought if they think about

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it at all. There are even instances where

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I've encountered lecture theaters that are brand new

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multimillion pound,

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facilities that have been built,

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where even things like, the lecture theaters are

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so steep,

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where the steps are

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really high and really narrow. They're sort of

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designed with tall men in mind. So even

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if you don't have a disability of any

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kind,

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but say you are a more petite woman,

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you might struggle

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and you don't feel safe because there's no

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handrails except for grabbing onto the desks.

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And there might not be necessarily enough space

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for someone who's in a chair to come

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and sit or looking at things like the

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fire escapes.

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Are those accessible for someone with impaired mobility?

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Like, it's no good having a fire escape

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that's up steps.

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And how about the digital barriers? So what

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are some kind of examples there?

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Oh, there's loads.

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Is there sufficient software?

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The

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for example,

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is the documents

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screen reader,

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accessible? Like, can they be read properly?

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Looking at the fonts used, looking at the

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colors,

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for the fonts.

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You want to make sure that the gold

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standard is being

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followed with select ideally

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font size 12 to 14.

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Font size 14 is the absolute gold standard

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is the best that you can go for

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as a base level. And yet normally people

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will go for really small print and they

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will use low grade paper when printing documents.

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Looking at the contrast to the colors. And

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unfortunately,

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one thing that is,

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really good highlighting of that sometimes you will

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have,

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people's needs will clash with other people's needs

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Is looking at,

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somehow some people might need low contrast,

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not too many colors on the page,

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such as in the cases of, some autistic

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people might find that it's much easier for

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them,

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and be

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less prone to sensory overload is if they've

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got a very soft color palette going on

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where there isn't too much high contrast and

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lots of pops of color. Whereas say someone

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who is ADHD,

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they might need lots of pops of color

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to hold their attention.

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So that again can be a digital barrier.

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There are many different things. And one of

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the things that's so useful, but again, you

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still need to check it, is you can

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get these fantastic toolkits,

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that

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let you adjust

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the color scheme. So something say black and

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white contrast

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or inverted colors or increasing the font size.

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Or

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for example, many other ranges like that but

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it's all along that sort of range.

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But you need to check that with the

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color schemes that you're using,

286
00:10:45,355 --> 00:10:46,654
the fonts you've chosen,

287
00:10:47,595 --> 00:10:49,754
do those work when you apply the different

288
00:10:49,754 --> 00:10:52,160
filters? Because sometimes it can be very much

289
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,559
the case that once you apply something it

290
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,960
will still not be accessible. And I've even

291
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,019
encountered cases

292
00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,660
where trying to apply these toolkits

293
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:02,660
filters

294
00:11:03,065 --> 00:11:05,404
makes things actually even worse for accessibility.

295
00:11:06,745 --> 00:11:09,384
Right. And these toolkit filters, they're something that

296
00:11:09,384 --> 00:11:11,625
you can just kind of download or or

297
00:11:11,625 --> 00:11:14,024
something like that? Yeah. There are lots of

298
00:11:14,024 --> 00:11:15,085
different ones available.

299
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,839
Right. Okay. So how what about if we

300
00:11:17,839 --> 00:11:19,600
move on to then some of the social

301
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,279
issues then? So I mean, so I guess,

302
00:11:21,279 --> 00:11:22,480
you know, these are some of the kind

303
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,220
of more everyday

304
00:11:23,759 --> 00:11:25,839
things that you that disabled people in science

305
00:11:25,839 --> 00:11:26,580
may encounter.

306
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:27,620
Mhmm.

307
00:11:28,235 --> 00:11:29,115
Oh, many.

308
00:11:29,514 --> 00:11:30,975
There is a lot of discrimination

309
00:11:31,514 --> 00:11:33,934
and bias against disabled people's

310
00:11:34,475 --> 00:11:34,975
abilities.

311
00:11:36,634 --> 00:11:37,375
We've perceived

312
00:11:37,914 --> 00:11:38,654
as being

313
00:11:40,235 --> 00:11:41,375
not very smart,

314
00:11:41,940 --> 00:11:42,679
not capable,

315
00:11:43,059 --> 00:11:44,040
not so productive.

316
00:11:46,179 --> 00:11:48,660
There's a lot of discrimination and that's very

317
00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:50,840
much wired into society.

318
00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:53,779
So if you're looking at inclusion, you can't

319
00:11:53,779 --> 00:11:54,254
just

320
00:11:54,815 --> 00:11:57,615
look at it within the context of just

321
00:11:57,615 --> 00:12:00,654
higher education alone or within STEM,

322
00:12:01,134 --> 00:12:01,634
itself.

323
00:12:02,014 --> 00:12:04,174
You have to look much further afield and

324
00:12:04,174 --> 00:12:06,835
look at things on a more national scale,

325
00:12:07,215 --> 00:12:09,955
looking at society wide barriers

326
00:12:10,629 --> 00:12:12,169
and biases and prejudices

327
00:12:12,789 --> 00:12:13,929
against disability.

328
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:15,370
And

329
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:18,629
so that is something that really needs to

330
00:12:18,629 --> 00:12:19,129
change.

331
00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:22,730
And unfortunately,

332
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:25,065
it ends up being the case that disabled

333
00:12:25,065 --> 00:12:27,565
people in STEM are significantly

334
00:12:28,825 --> 00:12:29,325
more

335
00:12:31,945 --> 00:12:34,125
exposed to bullying and harassment.

336
00:12:34,665 --> 00:12:36,365
The figures are really quite stark.

337
00:12:37,889 --> 00:12:40,929
It's been identified that over sixty percent of

338
00:12:40,929 --> 00:12:43,750
disabled people, including neurodivergent people,

339
00:12:44,129 --> 00:12:46,870
are subjected to bullying compared to

340
00:12:47,250 --> 00:12:48,309
about forty percent

341
00:12:48,769 --> 00:12:52,470
of non disabled people and that's really quite

342
00:12:53,414 --> 00:12:53,914
horrifying.

343
00:12:54,855 --> 00:12:57,274
You also have issues within the department

344
00:12:57,575 --> 00:12:58,075
of

345
00:12:58,774 --> 00:12:59,674
poor training,

346
00:13:00,455 --> 00:13:01,274
poor understanding

347
00:13:02,134 --> 00:13:04,554
of what a disabled person's

348
00:13:05,654 --> 00:13:06,154
challenges

349
00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:07,940
that they're facing are,

350
00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:11,440
or not really being aware of how a

351
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,820
disabled person might communicate differently if they're neurodivergent,

352
00:13:15,199 --> 00:13:15,860
for example.

353
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:18,980
There are a lot of different

354
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,179
attitudes at play and that really does

355
00:13:22,615 --> 00:13:23,514
need to change

356
00:13:24,375 --> 00:13:24,875
desperately.

357
00:13:25,815 --> 00:13:27,595
It's time for

358
00:13:29,975 --> 00:13:30,475
attitudes

359
00:13:31,175 --> 00:13:33,995
to become better and healthier because unfortunately,

360
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,940
things are untenable as they are.

361
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,159
Yeah. I mean, that's really a, you know,

362
00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:42,320
really stark statistic that, you know, almost two

363
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:42,820
thirds

364
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,919
of, you know, disabled people in science are

365
00:13:45,919 --> 00:13:47,679
bullied. I mean, that's, you know, that's really,

366
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,355
it's an incredibly high statistic there. Yeah.

367
00:13:51,815 --> 00:13:53,335
And so what about I mean, not many

368
00:13:53,335 --> 00:13:55,495
people might think in terms of, you know,

369
00:13:55,495 --> 00:13:56,315
there are significant

370
00:13:56,774 --> 00:13:57,835
financial barriers.

371
00:13:58,695 --> 00:14:00,134
So maybe you could outline a little bit

372
00:14:00,134 --> 00:14:01,595
about what what they may be.

373
00:14:02,375 --> 00:14:02,774
Oh,

374
00:14:03,495 --> 00:14:05,039
things such as being able to get,

375
00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:06,019
funding.

376
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,220
Unfortunately,

377
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,000
because a lot of disabled people end up

378
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,620
stuck in lower grade,

379
00:14:12,639 --> 00:14:13,139
roles,

380
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,600
it ends up being harder to progress and

381
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,100
it becomes harder to get funding as well.

382
00:14:18,799 --> 00:14:21,065
And it's where you get

383
00:14:21,365 --> 00:14:24,485
really stark statistics such as that only one

384
00:14:24,485 --> 00:14:25,865
percent of applicants,

385
00:14:26,804 --> 00:14:28,024
disclose being disabled.

386
00:14:29,125 --> 00:14:30,904
When you look at UKRI's

387
00:14:31,445 --> 00:14:31,945
data,

388
00:14:32,965 --> 00:14:33,625
for applications

389
00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:36,809
for grants. And it ends up being that

390
00:14:36,809 --> 00:14:38,409
a lot of the line share of the

391
00:14:38,409 --> 00:14:38,909
funding

392
00:14:39,529 --> 00:14:40,429
goes to

393
00:14:40,809 --> 00:14:41,789
specific groups

394
00:14:42,250 --> 00:14:44,649
who tend to be in much higher already

395
00:14:44,649 --> 00:14:48,269
established positions. And so disabled people get unfortunately

396
00:14:48,330 --> 00:14:49,184
pushed out a lot

397
00:14:51,105 --> 00:14:54,065
from that respect. There's also issues around having

398
00:14:54,065 --> 00:14:56,404
time to apply for funding

399
00:14:56,784 --> 00:14:58,625
when things can end up taking a lot

400
00:14:58,625 --> 00:15:01,264
longer for a disabled person because managing their

401
00:15:01,264 --> 00:15:02,085
health conditions,

402
00:15:02,929 --> 00:15:05,829
struggling with the workloads that are already expected

403
00:15:06,049 --> 00:15:06,789
of everyone

404
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:08,389
with little concession,

405
00:15:09,809 --> 00:15:12,610
that things can take longer for someone who's

406
00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:15,250
disabled, say, to to read something or whether

407
00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:16,904
they might have to take rest breaks

408
00:15:17,305 --> 00:15:18,365
because of their disabilities,

409
00:15:18,825 --> 00:15:21,485
because they might have fatigue issues, for example.

410
00:15:23,305 --> 00:15:23,805
The,

411
00:15:24,745 --> 00:15:25,565
there's no

412
00:15:25,865 --> 00:15:29,245
give really. And so if funding bodies can

413
00:15:29,465 --> 00:15:30,845
give provision for

414
00:15:31,789 --> 00:15:33,870
a longer time, and this would again would

415
00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:37,309
be another case where changes for a disabled

416
00:15:37,309 --> 00:15:39,169
person actually benefits

417
00:15:39,789 --> 00:15:43,250
everyone really. So having more time for

418
00:15:45,725 --> 00:15:47,904
being able to put a funding grant together,

419
00:15:48,605 --> 00:15:52,204
being able to acknowledge the roles of, early

420
00:15:52,204 --> 00:15:52,704
grades,

421
00:15:53,725 --> 00:15:54,225
researchers,

422
00:15:55,324 --> 00:15:57,424
and looking at how they can,

423
00:15:57,884 --> 00:15:58,384
mitigate

424
00:15:58,769 --> 00:16:01,110
the issues around being disabled,

425
00:16:01,889 --> 00:16:03,889
is something that funding bodies could really do

426
00:16:03,889 --> 00:16:06,450
a lot of, a lot more of. Or

427
00:16:06,450 --> 00:16:07,410
looking at how,

428
00:16:07,889 --> 00:16:10,230
support can be given to help,

429
00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:11,430
someone

430
00:16:11,970 --> 00:16:13,350
translate, say a three-dimensional

431
00:16:13,810 --> 00:16:15,184
concept of some research,

432
00:16:16,605 --> 00:16:18,545
into the correct format

433
00:16:18,924 --> 00:16:20,705
for putting a proposal together,

434
00:16:21,085 --> 00:16:22,625
as well as also ringfencing

435
00:16:23,245 --> 00:16:23,745
funding

436
00:16:24,205 --> 00:16:24,705
specifically

437
00:16:25,165 --> 00:16:25,665
for

438
00:16:26,205 --> 00:16:27,210
the extra cost

439
00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:30,830
associated with being disabled.

440
00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:32,970
So being able to have a support person

441
00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:35,529
in place who can do certain tasks for

442
00:16:35,529 --> 00:16:37,370
you that you might not necessarily be able

443
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:38,190
to do yourself.

444
00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:40,029
But it's not

445
00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:43,355
them doing your job for you. It's having

446
00:16:43,355 --> 00:16:45,355
someone in place so that you can actually

447
00:16:45,355 --> 00:16:47,274
then do your own work, do your own

448
00:16:47,274 --> 00:16:49,914
science yourself. It's just having someone there to

449
00:16:49,914 --> 00:16:51,134
support you as made.

450
00:16:51,674 --> 00:16:53,294
Or having someone that can,

451
00:16:53,995 --> 00:16:56,815
help with tasks like email replies

452
00:16:57,434 --> 00:16:59,750
or the like. You can have a scribe.

453
00:16:59,809 --> 00:17:03,089
And again, these are all things that aren't

454
00:17:03,089 --> 00:17:03,990
just menial,

455
00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:06,309
unskilled

456
00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:07,190
jobs.

457
00:17:07,809 --> 00:17:08,869
You need someone

458
00:17:09,250 --> 00:17:11,190
who has a scientific background,

459
00:17:11,815 --> 00:17:14,695
someone that understands the jargon, that understands the

460
00:17:14,695 --> 00:17:16,775
skills and techniques, who has all of that

461
00:17:16,775 --> 00:17:17,994
in place themselves already.

462
00:17:18,775 --> 00:17:21,654
And so but, again, it's still someone who's

463
00:17:21,654 --> 00:17:22,795
in the support role,

464
00:17:23,255 --> 00:17:25,434
or having, the funding available

465
00:17:25,815 --> 00:17:28,330
to be able to purchase specialist equipment.

466
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:30,250
And

467
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:32,890
it really is so very telling.

468
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:33,930
Like,

469
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:35,210
you

470
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:37,849
yeah. There isn't even,

471
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:38,970
wheelchair

472
00:17:39,269 --> 00:17:39,769
accessible,

473
00:17:41,414 --> 00:17:42,714
lab coats available.

474
00:17:43,095 --> 00:17:44,554
They're not a standard thing.

475
00:17:45,095 --> 00:17:45,595
And,

476
00:17:46,294 --> 00:17:48,375
yeah, wouldn't it be better if lab coats

477
00:17:48,375 --> 00:17:49,575
didn't just come in sort of like a

478
00:17:49,575 --> 00:17:51,815
warm cut that's really very much designed for

479
00:17:51,815 --> 00:17:53,869
men? You don't even have,

480
00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:58,109
lab coats that are suitable for women's figures,

481
00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:01,070
let alone people who are in a wheelchair

482
00:18:01,369 --> 00:18:02,670
or has easy

483
00:18:03,289 --> 00:18:04,890
access so that they can be put on

484
00:18:04,890 --> 00:18:07,390
and taken off easily if someone's got reduced

485
00:18:07,724 --> 00:18:09,345
mobility in their hands, for example.

486
00:18:09,724 --> 00:18:10,384
And yet

487
00:18:10,924 --> 00:18:11,984
we have PPE

488
00:18:12,285 --> 00:18:12,785
that's

489
00:18:13,404 --> 00:18:15,644
designed for service dogs to be able to

490
00:18:15,644 --> 00:18:16,625
go into labs.

491
00:18:17,404 --> 00:18:20,045
So surely they can design wheelchair accessible lab

492
00:18:20,045 --> 00:18:20,545
coats.

493
00:18:21,644 --> 00:18:23,160
And again, all of this

494
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:24,140
is

495
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:25,980
money that people go,

496
00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:28,460
oh, but it's too expensive to fund,

497
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:32,359
disabled people's needs. It's too expensive. It's too

498
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,240
difficult to do. And yet surely, you get

499
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:35,740
return,

500
00:18:36,825 --> 00:18:39,224
from that through being able to enable that

501
00:18:39,224 --> 00:18:40,204
disabled person

502
00:18:40,664 --> 00:18:42,744
to do their jobs because otherwise they can

503
00:18:42,744 --> 00:18:44,744
get pushed out and you're going to lose

504
00:18:44,744 --> 00:18:46,525
all that talent, all that knowledge.

505
00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:48,845
And it really is

506
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:50,659
a shame

507
00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:54,480
and a waste of that experience and knowledge,

508
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:54,980
really.

509
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:55,859
So

510
00:18:56,799 --> 00:18:59,440
that needs to be changed as part of

511
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:00,899
the changes in attitudes

512
00:19:01,605 --> 00:19:02,345
to funding,

513
00:19:04,005 --> 00:19:05,304
disabled people's needs.

514
00:19:06,005 --> 00:19:08,005
Yeah. And and you also, in the report,

515
00:19:08,005 --> 00:19:08,664
it also,

516
00:19:09,365 --> 00:19:11,444
recommends in terms of looking at these issues,

517
00:19:11,444 --> 00:19:12,664
you know, series of recommendations,

518
00:19:13,045 --> 00:19:13,865
looking at

519
00:19:14,244 --> 00:19:16,345
a short, medium, and long term.

520
00:19:17,045 --> 00:19:18,619
So I wonder whether you could just address

521
00:19:18,619 --> 00:19:20,059
a little bit about what, you know, say

522
00:19:20,059 --> 00:19:20,559
colleagues

523
00:19:21,259 --> 00:19:23,740
everywhere on a day to day basis, you

524
00:19:23,740 --> 00:19:25,039
know, what can they do,

525
00:19:25,419 --> 00:19:26,079
to help?

526
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:29,099
Oh, there's loads of little things that can

527
00:19:29,099 --> 00:19:31,724
make a huge amount of difference. Even just

528
00:19:32,204 --> 00:19:32,704
asking,

529
00:19:33,085 --> 00:19:34,144
how can we help,

530
00:19:35,325 --> 00:19:38,365
is a huge thing. Letting a disabled person

531
00:19:38,365 --> 00:19:40,065
say what their needs are

532
00:19:40,525 --> 00:19:43,644
and letting them have their voice is really

533
00:19:43,644 --> 00:19:45,825
bad at all. One thing that we desperately

534
00:19:45,884 --> 00:19:47,819
need is more allies.

535
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,220
People that will speak up and

536
00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,099
defend and back up a disabled person,

537
00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:55,960
if they run into issues such as if

538
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,500
there's bullying and harassment,

539
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,139
or if there are problems in the workplace

540
00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:01,259
with other colleagues.

541
00:20:02,644 --> 00:20:06,105
Things like, can they provide colleagues provide

542
00:20:06,404 --> 00:20:07,625
notes in advance?

543
00:20:08,884 --> 00:20:11,785
But again, it will help a disabled person

544
00:20:12,164 --> 00:20:14,105
and non disabled colleagues

545
00:20:14,404 --> 00:20:16,345
just as well alike. And

546
00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:19,000
there's that little shift.

547
00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:21,159
Also looking at how,

548
00:20:22,099 --> 00:20:25,779
workloads can be managed, changing perceptions about progress

549
00:20:25,779 --> 00:20:27,000
through one's career,

550
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,200
looking at

551
00:20:31,295 --> 00:20:32,994
the promotions criterias and mitigating,

552
00:20:34,575 --> 00:20:36,815
for example, needing to take career breaks or

553
00:20:36,815 --> 00:20:39,134
that something might take longer. For example, a

554
00:20:39,134 --> 00:20:39,954
piece of marking

555
00:20:40,494 --> 00:20:41,875
that someone might,

556
00:20:42,494 --> 00:20:44,434
be able to do in, say,

557
00:20:44,894 --> 00:20:47,680
two, three hours. It might take a disabled

558
00:20:47,740 --> 00:20:48,240
person

559
00:20:49,099 --> 00:20:51,519
four, five, six hours, double the time,

560
00:20:52,299 --> 00:20:54,480
just to, like, give them that general idea.

561
00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:57,359
But that, again, it varies,

562
00:20:58,059 --> 00:21:00,694
because it's not one box fits all.

563
00:21:01,634 --> 00:21:05,315
So having that leeway and give being able

564
00:21:05,315 --> 00:21:07,474
to speak up and defend people when there

565
00:21:07,474 --> 00:21:08,054
are issues.

566
00:21:09,075 --> 00:21:11,654
So, yeah, it's part of that allyship and

567
00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:15,269
changing that culture, changing that attitude

568
00:21:16,130 --> 00:21:19,669
towards how disabled people and how disabled people's

569
00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:20,289
career,

570
00:21:21,009 --> 00:21:21,509
pathways

571
00:21:22,210 --> 00:21:22,869
are affected.

572
00:21:23,809 --> 00:21:25,724
That can be a huge

573
00:21:26,264 --> 00:21:28,444
change. As part of that movement towards,

574
00:21:28,984 --> 00:21:31,464
as we've laid out in the white paper,

575
00:21:31,464 --> 00:21:32,204
the goal

576
00:21:32,585 --> 00:21:33,644
of making

577
00:21:34,184 --> 00:21:37,004
research culture and teaching culture for that matter

578
00:21:37,384 --> 00:21:40,764
much more inclusive and accessible for disabled people.

579
00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:43,890
And all round, that would be healthier for

580
00:21:43,890 --> 00:21:45,829
everyone because as things are,

581
00:21:47,089 --> 00:21:48,470
STEM is pretty toxic.

582
00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:51,809
Higher education is pretty toxic in terms of

583
00:21:51,809 --> 00:21:52,390
the workloads

584
00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:55,174
that are expected of us, the hours,

585
00:21:57,714 --> 00:21:58,855
the life that's

586
00:21:59,234 --> 00:22:01,575
expected of us that we're almost

587
00:22:02,035 --> 00:22:03,954
just need to be perceived as being just

588
00:22:03,954 --> 00:22:06,194
robots where we just work and just churn

589
00:22:06,194 --> 00:22:08,134
out paper after paper after paper.

590
00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:11,730
It's not healthy for anyone really.

591
00:22:12,109 --> 00:22:13,570
So having these attitudes

592
00:22:14,029 --> 00:22:16,049
benefits everyone really. And,

593
00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:17,890
yeah.

594
00:22:18,829 --> 00:22:20,690
And, and what about some of the

595
00:22:21,309 --> 00:22:23,674
longer term goals and that's that's highlighted in

596
00:22:23,674 --> 00:22:24,875
the report? I wonder if you could just

597
00:22:24,875 --> 00:22:26,474
outline a few, a few, a few of

598
00:22:26,474 --> 00:22:26,974
those.

599
00:22:27,434 --> 00:22:27,934
Okay.

600
00:22:28,555 --> 00:22:31,434
Whilst we're wanting to move towards things like

601
00:22:31,434 --> 00:22:32,654
the improving of funding,

602
00:22:33,674 --> 00:22:35,055
changing people's attitudes,

603
00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:38,250
We've all it's all in the movement towards

604
00:22:38,309 --> 00:22:40,309
trying to make things more inclusive as I

605
00:22:40,309 --> 00:22:41,690
was just saying.

606
00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:44,650
And that includes things such as,

607
00:22:46,150 --> 00:22:46,650
endorsing

608
00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:48,009
an intersectional,

609
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:49,450
framework

610
00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:50,570
for disabilities,

611
00:22:51,424 --> 00:22:52,325
as well as acknowledging

612
00:22:52,704 --> 00:22:53,525
the compounded,

613
00:22:54,065 --> 00:22:54,565
impact

614
00:22:55,184 --> 00:22:58,005
of someone who is safe, ethnic,

615
00:22:58,625 --> 00:23:00,164
racial, and minority group,

616
00:23:01,664 --> 00:23:03,825
as well as being disabled or a woman

617
00:23:03,825 --> 00:23:05,044
who's also disabled.

618
00:23:06,809 --> 00:23:07,549
The barriers

619
00:23:07,929 --> 00:23:08,429
and,

620
00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:10,430
inequalities

621
00:23:10,809 --> 00:23:12,029
faced from each group,

622
00:23:12,650 --> 00:23:13,630
they're all cumulative.

623
00:23:14,250 --> 00:23:16,910
So having a framework that is intersectional

624
00:23:17,369 --> 00:23:18,349
as well as

625
00:23:18,890 --> 00:23:20,029
disability inclusive

626
00:23:20,565 --> 00:23:23,444
really is needed. And it's quite stark that

627
00:23:23,444 --> 00:23:26,724
we don't have a framework that's out there

628
00:23:26,724 --> 00:23:28,184
yet completely and utterly

629
00:23:28,484 --> 00:23:31,704
like Athena, Swan or the Race Equality Charter.

630
00:23:32,085 --> 00:23:34,105
There is work in progress towards,

631
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:35,200
establishing

632
00:23:36,059 --> 00:23:38,400
the framework for disabled people,

633
00:23:38,779 --> 00:23:40,799
but there is still work to be done.

634
00:23:41,180 --> 00:23:43,740
So that's one movement. Looking at things such

635
00:23:43,740 --> 00:23:44,400
as accountability

636
00:23:45,259 --> 00:23:46,079
within organizations

637
00:23:47,044 --> 00:23:47,704
and within,

638
00:23:48,085 --> 00:23:49,065
funding bodies

639
00:23:50,005 --> 00:23:52,105
for poor practice, looking

640
00:23:52,484 --> 00:23:52,984
at

641
00:23:53,525 --> 00:23:54,025
whether,

642
00:23:55,525 --> 00:23:56,904
if someone is,

643
00:23:58,085 --> 00:24:00,825
sort of like discriminating against a disabled person,

644
00:24:00,884 --> 00:24:02,460
not bullying them, harassing

645
00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:05,440
harassing

646
00:24:06,140 --> 00:24:08,159
them, holding those people to account

647
00:24:08,619 --> 00:24:09,440
and recognising

648
00:24:10,299 --> 00:24:10,799
when

649
00:24:11,339 --> 00:24:11,839
institutions

650
00:24:12,779 --> 00:24:15,099
have got good policies in place and are

651
00:24:15,099 --> 00:24:15,919
doing things

652
00:24:16,539 --> 00:24:19,724
like removing some of those physical digital barriers

653
00:24:19,785 --> 00:24:21,325
that I spoke about earlier

654
00:24:21,785 --> 00:24:24,365
and trying to make things more inclusive

655
00:24:24,664 --> 00:24:26,525
for the disabled staff members

656
00:24:26,904 --> 00:24:28,825
because that's one of the things that's really

657
00:24:28,825 --> 00:24:31,404
commonly found for disabled people

658
00:24:31,785 --> 00:24:33,799
is that in higher education

659
00:24:34,099 --> 00:24:35,079
across the board,

660
00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:38,579
it tends to be that disability inclusion is

661
00:24:38,579 --> 00:24:41,319
focused almost entirely on disabled students

662
00:24:41,859 --> 00:24:44,200
and disabled staff get ignored

663
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,819
and swept under the carpet a lot. And

664
00:24:46,819 --> 00:24:48,794
that's something that needs to change. Again, it's

665
00:24:48,794 --> 00:24:51,214
part of the cultural societal changes

666
00:24:51,755 --> 00:24:53,454
that, yeah, a disabled student,

667
00:24:54,234 --> 00:24:56,954
can drop and then find themselves as nowhere

668
00:24:56,954 --> 00:24:58,894
to go in STEM unless

669
00:24:59,595 --> 00:25:02,014
things are changed with the attitudes and acknowledged

670
00:25:02,450 --> 00:25:04,549
that, and it's not acknowledged that disabled people

671
00:25:05,089 --> 00:25:07,589
are existing in STEM as professionals.

672
00:25:08,529 --> 00:25:10,609
And so trying to get that framework in

673
00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:12,869
place is really important. Holding people,

674
00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:13,990
institutions

675
00:25:14,849 --> 00:25:17,904
to account for when there's poor practice and

676
00:25:17,964 --> 00:25:19,984
rewarding things when things are good,

677
00:25:22,045 --> 00:25:22,545
improving

678
00:25:23,244 --> 00:25:25,984
the support for access to work. And unfortunately,

679
00:25:26,045 --> 00:25:26,945
it's the case

680
00:25:27,325 --> 00:25:30,365
that just as disability benefits such as PIP,

681
00:25:30,365 --> 00:25:31,019
which is

682
00:25:31,580 --> 00:25:32,640
meant to be

683
00:25:33,019 --> 00:25:33,519
for

684
00:25:35,339 --> 00:25:35,839
supporting

685
00:25:36,380 --> 00:25:39,200
that disabled people have a higher living cost,

686
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:42,539
that's being decimated as being much harder to

687
00:25:42,539 --> 00:25:45,244
get with the criteria, which are already brutally

688
00:25:45,244 --> 00:25:45,744
hard.

689
00:25:47,085 --> 00:25:49,085
People think, oh, it's just easy to get

690
00:25:49,085 --> 00:25:51,664
PIP. It really isn't. And it's incredibly

691
00:25:52,605 --> 00:25:53,105
traumatizing

692
00:25:53,964 --> 00:25:54,865
to go through

693
00:25:55,164 --> 00:25:56,625
reassessment after reassessment

694
00:25:57,349 --> 00:25:59,450
where you're not even treated as human,

695
00:25:59,910 --> 00:26:02,070
and treated as a liar a lot of

696
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:04,390
the time. So access to work, which is

697
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:07,210
meant to be there to support disabled people

698
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:09,130
and help them stay in work,

699
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:12,015
that needs to be funded properly. And unfortunately,

700
00:26:12,234 --> 00:26:14,394
assets to work, the funding for that's being

701
00:26:14,394 --> 00:26:16,654
cut as well, which is going to, again,

702
00:26:16,795 --> 00:26:17,615
run the risk

703
00:26:18,154 --> 00:26:20,654
of disabled people being pushed out of work.

704
00:26:20,875 --> 00:26:23,615
And it also doesn't really have a setup

705
00:26:23,755 --> 00:26:25,454
that acknowledges that people

706
00:26:25,755 --> 00:26:27,809
who are disabled can be working in high

707
00:26:27,809 --> 00:26:29,670
skilled, high hourly rate

708
00:26:30,130 --> 00:26:31,829
jobs, but they might not necessarily

709
00:26:32,130 --> 00:26:33,109
be able to,

710
00:26:34,369 --> 00:26:35,349
work full time.

711
00:26:35,809 --> 00:26:38,789
And they can but they also need support

712
00:26:39,170 --> 00:26:41,914
even though they're doing this high skill job.

713
00:26:42,775 --> 00:26:44,295
But they need to have the support that's

714
00:26:44,295 --> 00:26:46,455
in play, in place that's right for them,

715
00:26:46,455 --> 00:26:47,275
for their needs.

716
00:26:48,455 --> 00:26:50,154
So there's a lot of those different,

717
00:26:50,934 --> 00:26:52,475
factors all at play here.

718
00:26:53,015 --> 00:26:54,855
Yes. A lot of certainly a lot of

719
00:26:54,855 --> 00:26:55,835
a lot of things.

720
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,099
So you you attended an event on the

721
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,559
March 31 that was at the University of

722
00:27:01,559 --> 00:27:04,680
Strathclyde to launch the report. So what was

723
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,519
kind of the feeling there then at the

724
00:27:06,519 --> 00:27:07,019
event?

725
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,519
Oh, it was so powerful. It was really

726
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:11,019
emotional.

727
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,545
There was so much fantastic discussion there.

728
00:27:15,724 --> 00:27:17,884
And we got a lot out of it.

729
00:27:17,884 --> 00:27:20,125
And it really is very much just the

730
00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:21,585
start of our activities

731
00:27:22,125 --> 00:27:23,984
of what we're planning to do.

732
00:27:24,765 --> 00:27:26,445
And it's going to be something that people

733
00:27:26,445 --> 00:27:29,509
need to check on, the Madison,

734
00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:30,769
STEM Action Group,

735
00:27:31,329 --> 00:27:33,509
web page because we're going to continually,

736
00:27:35,009 --> 00:27:37,009
update that with more plans of what we're

737
00:27:37,009 --> 00:27:37,990
wanting to do,

738
00:27:38,609 --> 00:27:40,369
such as in between now and later in

739
00:27:40,369 --> 00:27:42,630
the year when we've got another launch event

740
00:27:42,724 --> 00:27:43,625
aimed at policymakers

741
00:27:43,924 --> 00:27:46,345
down in London, which we'll be, hosting.

742
00:27:46,884 --> 00:27:49,545
However, one of the things that was noticeable

743
00:27:49,765 --> 00:27:50,505
at the event,

744
00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:52,585
we needed more scientists

745
00:27:52,884 --> 00:27:53,384
present.

746
00:27:53,845 --> 00:27:55,605
A lot of the people present were already

747
00:27:55,605 --> 00:27:58,059
those who care about EDI, who see the

748
00:27:58,059 --> 00:27:59,980
value and importance to it. It was in

749
00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:01,900
a way preaching to the choir, as it

750
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:02,400
were.

751
00:28:02,779 --> 00:28:03,279
However,

752
00:28:03,740 --> 00:28:05,839
we need more scientists listening

753
00:28:06,299 --> 00:28:07,519
and taking action

754
00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,240
and recognizing that disability inclusion

755
00:28:10,700 --> 00:28:11,954
needs to be addressed.

756
00:28:12,434 --> 00:28:14,214
So in a way, it was highlighting

757
00:28:14,835 --> 00:28:16,615
part of the problem that we're facing.

758
00:28:17,234 --> 00:28:18,434
People need to be,

759
00:28:18,994 --> 00:28:21,394
taking account and taking action and getting involved

760
00:28:21,394 --> 00:28:23,394
in this. It shouldn't just be on the

761
00:28:23,394 --> 00:28:24,934
shoulders of EDI people,

762
00:28:25,634 --> 00:28:28,890
and disabled people. Some of us are doing

763
00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:29,390
this

764
00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:30,170
work,

765
00:28:30,570 --> 00:28:33,549
ourselves because of the barriers that we face,

766
00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:35,289
and we're just trying to get our voices

767
00:28:35,289 --> 00:28:35,789
heard.

768
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:38,809
So we need more scientists getting involved in

769
00:28:38,809 --> 00:28:39,309
this.

770
00:28:40,414 --> 00:28:42,255
So that brings me on to my final

771
00:28:42,255 --> 00:28:43,934
question then, really, which is, you know, what

772
00:28:43,934 --> 00:28:45,075
are your next steps

773
00:28:45,375 --> 00:28:47,315
regarding this report? But also,

774
00:28:48,015 --> 00:28:49,934
you know, what what impact do you hope

775
00:28:49,934 --> 00:28:50,755
it will achieve?

776
00:28:51,294 --> 00:28:53,694
We're wanting meaningful change because a lot of

777
00:28:53,694 --> 00:28:55,315
people, they talk about,

778
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,720
doing this, taking that, doing that, doing another

779
00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,220
consultation.

780
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,339
And it really is vital that consultation

781
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,059
of disabled people in STEM,

782
00:29:05,679 --> 00:29:06,419
is done,

783
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,105
is not useful if the wrong group is

784
00:29:10,065 --> 00:29:11,525
interviewed for ideas.

785
00:29:11,984 --> 00:29:14,804
And it's just survey after survey after survey

786
00:29:14,944 --> 00:29:16,005
that needs to change.

787
00:29:16,384 --> 00:29:16,884
Action

788
00:29:17,265 --> 00:29:19,984
actually is needed now because we've had enough

789
00:29:19,984 --> 00:29:20,644
of surveys.

790
00:29:21,829 --> 00:29:23,589
Change needs to happen. And this is part

791
00:29:23,589 --> 00:29:25,930
of the paradigm shift that we're really needing

792
00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:29,109
to take effect, really. We need to move

793
00:29:29,109 --> 00:29:29,609
towards

794
00:29:30,309 --> 00:29:31,849
having research culture

795
00:29:32,390 --> 00:29:34,250
becoming much more accessible

796
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:35,369
and inclusive

797
00:29:36,045 --> 00:29:38,205
for disabled people, which is why we've got

798
00:29:38,205 --> 00:29:38,785
the recommendations

799
00:29:39,805 --> 00:29:42,384
for getting policies in place,

800
00:29:42,765 --> 00:29:43,985
making things more,

801
00:29:45,244 --> 00:29:47,805
equitable as well as accessible, as well as

802
00:29:47,805 --> 00:29:48,305
intersectional.

803
00:29:50,990 --> 00:29:53,630
So we're just getting as much attention, as

804
00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:56,269
much noise as we can, getting the attention

805
00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:56,929
of policymakers,

806
00:29:57,630 --> 00:30:00,529
people in senior positions in institutions,

807
00:30:01,470 --> 00:30:03,970
in the funding bodies, in government,

808
00:30:04,694 --> 00:30:07,335
getting them to listen and engage with this

809
00:30:07,335 --> 00:30:07,835
because

810
00:30:08,214 --> 00:30:08,714
unless

811
00:30:09,095 --> 00:30:09,835
those people

812
00:30:10,375 --> 00:30:11,115
are engaged,

813
00:30:11,494 --> 00:30:14,454
it's going to continue having some of the

814
00:30:14,454 --> 00:30:14,954
barriers,

815
00:30:16,294 --> 00:30:18,349
that we face on the policy level, on

816
00:30:18,349 --> 00:30:21,009
the strategies level, because these are the people

817
00:30:21,230 --> 00:30:24,269
who make these decisions, make these choices, send

818
00:30:24,269 --> 00:30:25,250
out these messages.

819
00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:26,450
And

820
00:30:26,909 --> 00:30:28,750
if we can have pressure coming from the

821
00:30:28,750 --> 00:30:29,569
top down

822
00:30:29,869 --> 00:30:30,929
to change,

823
00:30:31,674 --> 00:30:34,075
it's much more likely that there will be

824
00:30:34,075 --> 00:30:36,954
a shift. So it's absolutely vital that momentum

825
00:30:36,954 --> 00:30:38,255
has kept up about this

826
00:30:38,714 --> 00:30:40,575
and that we keep talking

827
00:30:40,954 --> 00:30:43,775
about these barriers, talking about what

828
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:47,369
changes are needed and actually getting people to

829
00:30:47,369 --> 00:30:48,910
do something about this.

830
00:30:50,730 --> 00:30:52,730
Well, that's great. Thank you. Well, thanks for

831
00:30:52,730 --> 00:30:54,809
your time to, come and explain all of

832
00:30:54,809 --> 00:30:57,210
this to us. And it really does highlight,

833
00:30:57,210 --> 00:30:58,430
you know, the many challenges,

834
00:30:58,904 --> 00:31:01,065
that disabled people in science still have to

835
00:31:01,065 --> 00:31:01,565
overcome.

836
00:31:02,025 --> 00:31:03,005
But I guess also

837
00:31:03,305 --> 00:31:05,225
how, you know, even a few steps taken

838
00:31:05,225 --> 00:31:07,785
by all of us can hugely improve the

839
00:31:07,785 --> 00:31:08,285
situation.

840
00:31:08,984 --> 00:31:11,065
So many thanks again, for joining us on

841
00:31:11,065 --> 00:31:13,325
the podcast today. You're very, very welcome.

842
00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:23,859
That was Francesca DiDato

843
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,859
of Lancaster University

844
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,380
speaking to Physics World's Michael Banks.

845
00:31:29,884 --> 00:31:31,984
Thanks to both of them for a fascinating

846
00:31:32,125 --> 00:31:32,625
conversation.

847
00:31:33,644 --> 00:31:35,984
I'll put a link to the white paper

848
00:31:36,204 --> 00:31:38,304
into the notes for this podcast.

849
00:31:38,924 --> 00:31:40,924
And I'm afraid that's all the time we

850
00:31:40,924 --> 00:31:43,424
have for this week. Thanks to our producer,

851
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,740
Fred Isles.

852
00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:47,619
We'll be back again soon. Bye.