Building a quantum future using topological phases of matter and error correction

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly

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podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.

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This week, I'm in conversation with Tim Shea

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of Canada's Perimeter Institute

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for Theoretical Physics.

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We explore some of the hottest topics in

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quantum science and technology,

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including

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emergent phenomena,

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quantum error correction,

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and quantum simulation.

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This episode is supported by the APS

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Global Physics Summit,

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which takes place on March

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2026

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in Denver, Colorado

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and online.

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At the largest physics meeting in the world,

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you can join thousands of physicists,

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students, and policy leaders for a week of

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connection and collaboration.

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Immerse yourself in the cutting edge science that's

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shaping our shared future,

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and be part of the global physics community

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driving innovation

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forward.

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Explore the meeting at summit.aps.org.

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Earlier this autumn, I had the pleasure of

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visiting the Perimeter Institute

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where I interviewed four physicists

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about their research.

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This is the third of those conversations

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to appear on the podcast,

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And it's with Tim Hsieh,

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whose research focuses on quantum information

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and quantum matter.

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Here's that conversation.

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I'm at the Peruner Institute in Waterloo, Ontario,

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and I'm very pleased to be joined by

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Tim Shea.

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Hi, Tim. Welcome to the podcast.

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Thanks a lot, Himesh. Thanks for, being here

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visiting with us. So Tim, we're gonna talk

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about quantum matter,

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and I think we need to we need

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a definition here.

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I mean, aren't most, if not all material

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properties

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defined

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by quantum mechanics. So what is quantum matter

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as opposed to

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just matter that's

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defined by quantum mechanics? Yeah. That's a that's

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a great question. So it it's true that,

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you know, everything is dictated by the laws

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of quantum mechanics, but it turns out that

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in certain materials,

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the really counterintuitive

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laws of quantum mechanics,

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play a much bigger role than in other

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materials, which look more classical.

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Right? Like, so for example,

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you know, given our phones, our our computers,

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you know, we have a deep appreciation of,

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semiconductor

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chips, right, like silicon,

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things like that. Right?

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And these,

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you know, for for these these,

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very useful materials,

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quantum mechanics already plays some role. Right? Like,

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the the the power exclusion principle, for example,

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is,

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really important. Right? We wouldn't be here if

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it wasn't for the Pauli exclusion principle. Yeah.

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Yeah. Ex exactly.

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And and so, you know, in in coming

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up with,

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a theory of, band gaps in semiconductors,

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for example,

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we already need quantum mechanics. But this is

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more quantum mechanics at, at a single particle

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level.

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Right? We're basically dealing with,

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you know, how,

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a single electron moves in in a whole

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crystal array.

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And, by analyzing that, we can already, you

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know, derive a lot of

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the, useful properties of of semiconductors, for example.

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Okay. So that's, like, that's kinda like level

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one quantum materials.

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But then it turns out that there are

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even more exotic,

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like, higher level quantum materials where,

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quantum mechanics plays a much

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deeper and complex role.

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So some of which we haven't even completely

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understood.

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Right? And and that's because, for these, you

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know, more exotic quantum materials,

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we're not dealing with a a single particle

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moving into crystal. We're dealing with, like, a

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whole collection of interacting

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electrons

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or or spins, magnetic moments.

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And so now,

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you know, we have

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a a a many body problem in which

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we have to apply the laws of quantum

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mechanics are.

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We have to apply the laws of quantum

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mechanics.

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And so that that can give rise to

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a lot of new,

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emergent

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phenomena that we didn't expect at the single

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particle level.

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Right? And so one one example is, for

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example, superconductivity,

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right, or,

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our what what we call quantum spin liquids.

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These are where we really have to deal

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with the the whole system, like, you know,

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10 to the 23 or more,

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electrons degrees of freedom interacting.

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Right? So so these, I would say, are,

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much of the focus of modern,

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quantum matter research.

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And I I wanted to ask you about

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emergent

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phenomena. I think it was it Philip Anderson

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who said more is different Right. Right. In

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the sense that when you when you have

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lots of things interacting

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Mhmm. You can have very strange well,

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structures pop out of it. Right. Right. And,

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you know, I suppose these are it's not

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just in the quantum world. You know, if

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you go to a beach, for example, you'll

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see lovely ripples in the sand. Mhmm. Things

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like that. So we're we're sort of used

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to,

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collections of small things

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organizing themselves into big patterns. Right. But how,

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how does this work in in the quantum

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world? Yeah. Yes. You gave a few examples.

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Can you maybe give a a few more?

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Sure. Sure. Yeah. So in in indeed, it's

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true that even in, you know, macroscopic

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classical systems, you know, without any, you know,

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quantum mechanics necessary, there's already immersion phenomena, like

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like the type you described.

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For for large or, you know, macroscopic

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quantum systems, you can have even more interesting

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phenomena.

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One of my favorites is, something called

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the topological order.

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And that that's when,

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you know, you can have

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systems of, you know, individual,

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bosonic

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degrees of freedom. Right?

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But whose whose interaction

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give rise to some state in which you

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have immersion fermion

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particles,

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coming out. Oh, really? That's that's really interesting.

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So the the

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how can bosons team up to make a

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fermion? Yeah. Yeah. So I could see fermions

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teaming up to make a boson, but Right.

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Right. Right. The opposite seems a bit odd.

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It's it's it's pretty amazing. Like,

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one way to think of this is that,

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you know, you can you can imagine the

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individual

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constituents of the system

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as being composed of even smaller degrees of

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freedom.

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Right? So so in in in, you know,

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fundamental particle physics, there's there's this old idea

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of, partons. Right? Like, our our,

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you know, our protons, our neutrons are made

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out of smaller particles called quarks.

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Right?

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So it turns out to be

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somewhat valuable in thinking in terms of that

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perspective even for, like, you know, these these

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tabletop systems or materials. So you you can

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imagine your individual constituents consist of smaller

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degrees of freedom. Like, you can imagine a

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boson that's composed of two fermions bound together.

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Right?

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And for,

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you know, what I call trivial

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phases of matter, you can imagine that these

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these these, you know, imaginary fermions are, like,

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bound together tightly, and each boson is doing

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its own thing. So you never really see

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the fermions by themselves. Right?

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But you could imagine the possibility that these

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bosons,

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each of which have, like, a pair of

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bound fermions,

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are interacting so much that these bound fermions

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become deconfined.

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Right? It's just like how in again,

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using a particle physics analogy,

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if you have, like, protons and neutrons, like,

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high enough temperature or pressure,

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in principle, you could have quarks that are

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deconfied.

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And you you could see the individual constituents

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in in a very, you know, extreme setting.

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Right? Here, it's like the the strong interactions

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between,

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in this case, like bosons,

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that lead to the deconfident

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of this imaginary

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constituent of this fermion. And this is how

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this fermion becomes, like, unbound due to strong

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interactions

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of many collective degrees of freedom.

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And and some of these emergent phenomena, they're

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not I mean, it's not just a theoretical

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curiosity, is it? Right.

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Right. Right. Yeah. You you know, you mentioned

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topological

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Yeah. That's definitely not. So useful for computing,

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couldn't you? Yeah. So this this has, you

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know, gone all the way back until the,

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the the nineteen eighties. So,

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there there's a system called the the fractional

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quantum hall effect, right, which basically is like

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a two d electron gas in a very

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high magnetic field at low temperature. And

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and here, there there's already this phenomenon of,

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this fractionalization

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of individual particles into some smaller constituents.

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So one of the simplest example is, like,

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you have these this this two d electron

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system. You know, it's built out of electrons,

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but, again, due to strong interactions,

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you have fractionalization

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into,

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pieces of electron. For example, a third of

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the electron charge with with a third of

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its,

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particle statistics in some sense. And so, yeah,

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these these fractional quantum ball systems have been,

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seen experimentally,

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since since the eighties. So these systems, you

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know, remarkably exist. And,

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yeah, that that that's what makes this phenomenon,

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of course, even more, interesting and relevant. And

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and and it can be useful as well

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because I think, you know, for example, topological

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properties,

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perhaps resistant to noise, and that could be

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handy when you're trying to build a quantum

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Exactly. Exactly. So exactly. One one approach toward

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encoding this, you know, very fragile quantum information

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is to encode the information into

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the fractionalized

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pieces of the individual degrees of freedom. Right?

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So so if you if you didn't have

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fractionalization, if you just have information encoded directly

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at the physical level,

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then, you know, the that physical

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that physical degree of freedom can be corrupted

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easily by some some noise. But if you

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encode it non locally in in terms of,

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you know, fractions of the original degrees of

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freedom that are separated in space,

276
00:10:39,264 --> 00:10:42,144
then it's much less likely that some noise

277
00:10:42,144 --> 00:10:42,644
event

278
00:10:43,105 --> 00:10:45,745
will collectively corrupt all three and lead to

279
00:10:45,745 --> 00:10:48,459
a logical error. Right? So this this nonlocal

280
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,339
encoding of of information is more,

281
00:10:51,799 --> 00:10:53,500
robust, and this is why,

282
00:10:54,199 --> 00:10:56,039
you know, we have this pretty promising approach

283
00:10:56,039 --> 00:11:00,139
of topological computation using these fractional oxide fractionalized

284
00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:00,860
excitations,

285
00:11:01,915 --> 00:11:02,975
to do computation.

286
00:11:03,835 --> 00:11:05,995
And, Tim, I wanted to move on to,

287
00:11:06,634 --> 00:11:07,695
quantum computers.

288
00:11:08,075 --> 00:11:09,754
Mhmm. I mean, I suppose you could think

289
00:11:09,754 --> 00:11:11,855
of a quantum computer as essentially

290
00:11:12,475 --> 00:11:15,690
a piece of quantum matter that physicists can

291
00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:17,149
control very precisely.

292
00:11:18,009 --> 00:11:20,029
Mhmm. If we were able to create

293
00:11:20,409 --> 00:11:23,449
large scale quantum computers, let's say using those

294
00:11:23,449 --> 00:11:23,949
topological

295
00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:25,049
qubits Mhmm.

296
00:11:25,690 --> 00:11:26,909
What sort of emergent

297
00:11:27,289 --> 00:11:29,485
phenomena do you think we could see? Or

298
00:11:29,485 --> 00:11:31,245
or maybe we don't know and we'll have

299
00:11:31,245 --> 00:11:31,825
to wait.

300
00:11:32,285 --> 00:11:34,384
Yeah. Exactly. I think I think this is,

301
00:11:35,245 --> 00:11:37,024
at least for me, the most

302
00:11:37,565 --> 00:11:38,065
exciting

303
00:11:38,684 --> 00:11:41,425
thing would be to, you know, see some

304
00:11:41,980 --> 00:11:44,299
phenomenon that we don't know yet how to

305
00:11:44,299 --> 00:11:46,059
understand. Right? I think that that's always the

306
00:11:46,059 --> 00:11:47,519
most exciting mode

307
00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:50,320
of of physics being done. Right?

308
00:11:50,779 --> 00:11:52,220
This for example, this is what happened for

309
00:11:52,220 --> 00:11:54,700
the the factional quantum hall effect. Right? Like,

310
00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:56,080
like, there was no prediction

311
00:11:56,475 --> 00:11:58,495
of this very interesting phenomenon beforehand.

312
00:11:58,954 --> 00:12:00,634
And so that, I think, is also true

313
00:12:00,634 --> 00:12:01,034
for this,

314
00:12:02,634 --> 00:12:03,294
you know,

315
00:12:03,914 --> 00:12:06,154
for for the quantum computers being developed right

316
00:12:06,154 --> 00:12:07,674
now. You you can think of it as

317
00:12:07,674 --> 00:12:08,975
kind of probing a new

318
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:12,090
probing a new extreme,

319
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:14,570
of, complexity

320
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:16,730
access. Right? So,

321
00:12:18,310 --> 00:12:20,470
as you probably know, like, a lot of

322
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:22,105
the the big breakthroughs,

323
00:12:22,565 --> 00:12:25,625
you know, in seeing new phenomenon from experiments

324
00:12:25,764 --> 00:12:28,904
leading to new theories has come from probing,

325
00:12:29,845 --> 00:12:30,424
in a extreme,

326
00:12:32,004 --> 00:12:33,625
point in some parameter.

327
00:12:34,259 --> 00:12:35,240
Right? Like, superconductivity,

328
00:12:35,620 --> 00:12:37,399
we're cooling down to very low temperature.

329
00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:40,100
Right? For pressure quantum ball, it's like reducing

330
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:40,600
dimensionality

331
00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:43,379
to, you know, like, a two d plane

332
00:12:43,379 --> 00:12:46,179
applying a really high magnetic field. Right? And

333
00:12:46,179 --> 00:12:48,100
so this, you know, this this,

334
00:12:49,514 --> 00:12:51,934
development of quantum computing is, like, probing,

335
00:12:52,875 --> 00:12:53,375
this

336
00:12:53,834 --> 00:12:55,934
new access of, like, quantum coherence.

337
00:12:56,875 --> 00:13:00,315
Right? Of, like, basically, how how big of

338
00:13:00,315 --> 00:13:01,834
a system can we have,

339
00:13:02,554 --> 00:13:04,830
you know, superposition of states.

340
00:13:05,309 --> 00:13:06,830
And right? So it's this it's this new

341
00:13:06,830 --> 00:13:08,690
regime of, like, quantum complexity

342
00:13:09,389 --> 00:13:12,450
that's being now, you know, newly available.

343
00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:14,129
Right? And,

344
00:13:15,149 --> 00:13:17,149
and, yeah, again, to be I think it'd

345
00:13:17,149 --> 00:13:19,274
be the most exciting if we see, you

346
00:13:19,274 --> 00:13:21,454
know, some new phenomena that might suggest

347
00:13:21,914 --> 00:13:23,674
even, like, a, like, a breakdown in the

348
00:13:23,674 --> 00:13:26,954
current laws upon mechanics. Right? Yeah. Now that'll

349
00:13:26,954 --> 00:13:28,954
be obviously very, you know like, we we

350
00:13:28,954 --> 00:13:30,735
we don't expect it right now, but,

351
00:13:31,309 --> 00:13:32,909
that would be, I think, the most exciting

352
00:13:32,909 --> 00:13:35,230
thing. Yeah. I mean, that is a that

353
00:13:35,230 --> 00:13:37,389
is an interesting thing, isn't it? An idea

354
00:13:37,389 --> 00:13:38,129
that's emerged,

355
00:13:38,669 --> 00:13:40,990
you know, sorry about the pun, over the

356
00:13:40,990 --> 00:13:43,629
last little while is that you, you know,

357
00:13:43,629 --> 00:13:46,029
you could see that crack in in the

358
00:13:46,029 --> 00:13:47,009
standard model.

359
00:13:47,495 --> 00:13:49,334
Right. That's right. In a in a quantum

360
00:13:49,334 --> 00:13:50,955
computer rather than smashing

361
00:13:51,414 --> 00:13:53,815
particles together. You know, you could get your

362
00:13:53,815 --> 00:13:54,934
first glimpse of,

363
00:13:56,134 --> 00:13:58,534
of physics beyond what we know. That's right.

364
00:13:58,534 --> 00:14:01,529
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. So for

365
00:14:01,529 --> 00:14:03,690
for, I guess, beyond the center model, there

366
00:14:03,690 --> 00:14:04,590
were kind of,

367
00:14:06,090 --> 00:14:08,190
we're kind of looking at this, like, reductionist

368
00:14:08,809 --> 00:14:11,850
paradigm, right, where, you know, we have, like,

369
00:14:11,850 --> 00:14:14,410
you know, basic degrees of freedom that and

370
00:14:14,410 --> 00:14:16,855
and their laws, and we're trying to see

371
00:14:16,855 --> 00:14:18,695
what the complete description of those basic degrees

372
00:14:18,695 --> 00:14:20,615
of freedom. But but in this in this

373
00:14:20,615 --> 00:14:22,455
other axis of, like, you know, building a

374
00:14:22,455 --> 00:14:23,434
a big controllable

375
00:14:24,054 --> 00:14:24,955
quantum computer,

376
00:14:25,495 --> 00:14:27,815
right, it's like more of like a I

377
00:14:27,815 --> 00:14:29,735
don't know. The opposite of reduction is, like,

378
00:14:29,735 --> 00:14:30,235
constructionist

379
00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:33,899
philosophy. Again, this philosophy of of emergence,

380
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,399
you know, coming from basic degrees of freedom,

381
00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:38,539
which we already understand,

382
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,419
you know, what laws are describing them, but

383
00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:43,960
together, they lead to these emergent laws that

384
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:44,715
that we don't,

385
00:14:45,274 --> 00:14:46,654
really know about. Right?

386
00:14:47,675 --> 00:14:50,875
So so we've chatted a bit about quantum

387
00:14:50,875 --> 00:14:52,975
computers, and I know that that's one

388
00:14:53,595 --> 00:14:55,434
interest that you have in terms of your

389
00:14:55,434 --> 00:14:55,934
research.

390
00:14:56,555 --> 00:14:59,370
Where are we at the moment with quantum

391
00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:02,090
computers? What what are the challenges facing people

392
00:15:02,090 --> 00:15:04,090
who are trying to develop them at the

393
00:15:04,090 --> 00:15:06,809
moment? Is it this this coherence problem dealing

394
00:15:06,809 --> 00:15:09,529
with the noise that Yeah. Destroys your quantum

395
00:15:09,529 --> 00:15:11,210
state? That's right. So that that that is

396
00:15:11,210 --> 00:15:13,975
the biggest challenge because, you know, quantum information

397
00:15:13,975 --> 00:15:17,355
is even more fragile than, classical information.

398
00:15:17,735 --> 00:15:20,075
Right? Because quantum information, you have to

399
00:15:20,695 --> 00:15:21,915
worry about noise,

400
00:15:22,615 --> 00:15:25,089
pretty much in along different axes. Right? So

401
00:15:25,089 --> 00:15:27,089
in in in the classical world, you only

402
00:15:27,089 --> 00:15:28,149
have one basis.

403
00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:30,230
Right? Like, one zero,

404
00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:32,210
up or down. And if you worry about

405
00:15:32,210 --> 00:15:35,190
noise, like flipping bits in that one basis.

406
00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:36,230
But,

407
00:15:37,169 --> 00:15:38,769
as you probably know, you know, a a

408
00:15:38,769 --> 00:15:39,830
qubit is,

409
00:15:40,394 --> 00:15:41,834
in some sense, almost like a like a

410
00:15:41,834 --> 00:15:44,254
continuous space. Right? You can have arbitrary superpositions

411
00:15:44,475 --> 00:15:45,995
of zero and one, and so you could

412
00:15:45,995 --> 00:15:48,894
have noise acting along all these different directions,

413
00:15:49,274 --> 00:15:50,975
along the block sphere. Right?

414
00:15:51,595 --> 00:15:53,274
And so, you have to work a lot

415
00:15:53,274 --> 00:15:54,240
harder to protect

416
00:15:54,559 --> 00:15:57,139
any quantum information that you've you've encoded.

417
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,259
But but that said, there's been remarkable

418
00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:03,839
experimental progress in in, a whole variety of

419
00:16:03,839 --> 00:16:06,899
approaches for quantum computing, like trapped ions, superconducting

420
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:07,605
qubits,

421
00:16:08,164 --> 00:16:09,625
red brick arrays, for example.

422
00:16:10,644 --> 00:16:12,164
And and so I think it's it's really

423
00:16:12,164 --> 00:16:14,725
exciting time where, you know, people are scaling

424
00:16:14,725 --> 00:16:18,264
up, their quantum simulators in computers. The controllability

425
00:16:18,485 --> 00:16:20,824
is improving. Their gate fidelities are improving.

426
00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:22,620
And so now this is really,

427
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,460
like a new playground for for theorists

428
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,259
to, at this point, you know, predict,

429
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,679
new types of phases, for example, that can

430
00:16:32,679 --> 00:16:33,820
emerge in these systems,

431
00:16:34,445 --> 00:16:35,345
things like that.

432
00:16:36,205 --> 00:16:38,284
And, Tim, am I right that you you

433
00:16:38,284 --> 00:16:41,245
work on some quantum error correction? Is that

434
00:16:41,245 --> 00:16:43,565
right? Yeah. So, yeah. I I've been Now

435
00:16:43,565 --> 00:16:45,164
can you talk a bit about that? Because

436
00:16:45,164 --> 00:16:47,004
that, I mean, you know, as well as

437
00:16:47,004 --> 00:16:49,370
improving the fidelity or quality of a of

438
00:16:49,370 --> 00:16:52,089
a quantum Right. Right. Right. The I suppose

439
00:16:52,089 --> 00:16:53,149
for the time being,

440
00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,009
error correction is is a really important Right.

441
00:16:56,089 --> 00:16:57,929
Issue, isn't it? Yes. So what will what

442
00:16:57,929 --> 00:17:00,329
is quantum error correction? And Yeah. So so

443
00:17:00,329 --> 00:17:03,289
quantum error correction is is how you, you

444
00:17:03,289 --> 00:17:04,095
know, protect

445
00:17:04,414 --> 00:17:06,434
this logical infer this quantum

446
00:17:06,734 --> 00:17:10,115
information you're encoding against noise. Right? And so,

447
00:17:10,654 --> 00:17:12,835
typically, you have to, you know, measure

448
00:17:13,214 --> 00:17:13,714
certain

449
00:17:14,095 --> 00:17:14,595
syndromes

450
00:17:14,974 --> 00:17:17,234
in in your in your system, repeatedly.

451
00:17:17,809 --> 00:17:20,630
And based on those the syndrome measurement outcomes,

452
00:17:21,009 --> 00:17:21,509
decide,

453
00:17:21,890 --> 00:17:23,569
you know, what is the most likely error

454
00:17:23,569 --> 00:17:26,049
that occurred. Right? And then you'll apply some

455
00:17:26,049 --> 00:17:27,109
feedback to,

456
00:17:27,410 --> 00:17:28,549
reverse those errors.

457
00:17:28,849 --> 00:17:31,169
So that that's that's the basic idea. But,

458
00:17:31,410 --> 00:17:33,410
remarkably, that like, quantum error correction, I think,

459
00:17:33,410 --> 00:17:36,365
is extremely deep and has a lot of

460
00:17:36,365 --> 00:17:37,505
relevance to,

461
00:17:39,644 --> 00:17:43,164
beyond its, original practical intention of preserving logical

462
00:17:43,164 --> 00:17:43,664
information.

463
00:17:44,445 --> 00:17:46,605
For example, it, you know, it it provides,

464
00:17:46,605 --> 00:17:48,065
like, a new angle for,

465
00:17:49,070 --> 00:17:49,789
for interpreting,

466
00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:51,490
the the holographic

467
00:17:51,789 --> 00:17:53,330
correspondence, right, between,

468
00:17:53,950 --> 00:17:56,849
like, a, a system in one lower dimension

469
00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:59,330
and one in higher dimension with gravity.

470
00:18:00,109 --> 00:18:02,444
And and also for for me, there are

471
00:18:02,444 --> 00:18:04,125
a lot of deep connections between quantum error

472
00:18:04,125 --> 00:18:04,625
correction

473
00:18:05,164 --> 00:18:06,704
and quantum phases of matter.

474
00:18:07,325 --> 00:18:09,325
Right? So so my my interest is has

475
00:18:09,325 --> 00:18:10,704
been in kinda understanding,

476
00:18:12,284 --> 00:18:15,325
you know, the the error correcting regime versus

477
00:18:15,325 --> 00:18:17,744
the non error correcting regime as two different

478
00:18:18,029 --> 00:18:19,730
types of phase of matter.

479
00:18:20,029 --> 00:18:21,869
Right? Again, we'd like, going back to what

480
00:18:21,869 --> 00:18:23,230
you said, we can think of this quantum

481
00:18:23,230 --> 00:18:24,609
computer as some macroscopic

482
00:18:25,470 --> 00:18:27,730
quantum system, right, to be analyzed

483
00:18:28,269 --> 00:18:30,670
on the same footing as some quantum material,

484
00:18:30,670 --> 00:18:31,730
which we would conventionally,

485
00:18:32,914 --> 00:18:34,615
label as some phase of matter.

486
00:18:34,914 --> 00:18:36,914
Right. And and so yeah. So does that

487
00:18:36,914 --> 00:18:38,434
go back to, you know, you you were

488
00:18:38,434 --> 00:18:41,554
talking about top a topological state where the

489
00:18:41,554 --> 00:18:42,054
quantum

490
00:18:42,674 --> 00:18:44,275
well, the as as well as the quantum

491
00:18:44,275 --> 00:18:45,255
state is distributed

492
00:18:45,954 --> 00:18:46,434
between,

493
00:18:47,075 --> 00:18:47,974
several different

494
00:18:48,569 --> 00:18:50,250
entities. Is that I mean, is that an

495
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:50,750
example

496
00:18:51,289 --> 00:18:54,569
maybe of a an error corrective Exactly. Yeah.

497
00:18:54,569 --> 00:18:56,089
Yeah. That that's a that's a very nice

498
00:18:56,089 --> 00:18:58,809
example of a of a topological phase of

499
00:18:58,809 --> 00:18:59,309
matter

500
00:18:59,690 --> 00:19:02,509
serving as a quantum error correcting code.

501
00:19:03,045 --> 00:19:04,725
Right? But then you can ask, you know,

502
00:19:04,725 --> 00:19:07,045
if you try to corrupt this, you know,

503
00:19:07,045 --> 00:19:09,924
with environmental noise, like, what's actually happening on

504
00:19:09,924 --> 00:19:12,565
the experimental quantum computer, at some point, it

505
00:19:12,565 --> 00:19:15,205
will lose the quantum information. Right? At some

506
00:19:15,205 --> 00:19:17,519
point, you will destroy this order. Right? So

507
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:19,220
here, you have a case in which the

508
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,000
the error correction threshold, right, that the point

509
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:22,660
at which

510
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,840
you're, you know, you're you've lost the ability

511
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,680
to store quantum information gets,

512
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,640
destroyed, and that coincides with a a phase

513
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,580
transition. Right? So

514
00:19:33,414 --> 00:19:35,494
so, what I've been very interested in is,

515
00:19:35,494 --> 00:19:36,954
you know, applying this

516
00:19:37,255 --> 00:19:39,515
perspective of phases of matter and phase transitions,

517
00:19:40,454 --> 00:19:40,954
to,

518
00:19:41,575 --> 00:19:43,575
error correction, like, viewing that as a phase

519
00:19:43,575 --> 00:19:45,335
of matter and, you know, importing a lot

520
00:19:45,335 --> 00:19:46,855
of the techniques we have and thinking about

521
00:19:46,855 --> 00:19:47,755
phases of matter,

522
00:19:48,309 --> 00:19:51,109
into this, air correction setting. Yeah. Well, that's

523
00:19:51,109 --> 00:19:53,509
really interesting because I've I've always maintained that

524
00:19:53,509 --> 00:19:55,750
if there's one thing a physicist loves, it's

525
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:58,009
a phase transition. Yeah. That's true.

526
00:19:58,309 --> 00:19:59,210
That's true. Yeah.

527
00:19:59,590 --> 00:20:01,509
There's, you know, a huge amount of insight

528
00:20:01,509 --> 00:20:03,224
into a system that you can get, isn't

529
00:20:03,224 --> 00:20:05,224
there, by watching? And there's a lot of,

530
00:20:05,304 --> 00:20:06,744
you know, like, notions of,

531
00:20:07,144 --> 00:20:09,224
universality. Right? The whole the whole idea of

532
00:20:09,224 --> 00:20:10,664
thinking about a phase of matter is that

533
00:20:10,664 --> 00:20:13,005
you don't have to deal with every individual

534
00:20:13,224 --> 00:20:16,285
system, right, and their, you know, different microscopic

535
00:20:16,505 --> 00:20:19,089
properties. You you care about the universal long

536
00:20:19,089 --> 00:20:21,589
distance physics, what's common to the whole,

537
00:20:22,210 --> 00:20:23,349
set of these systems.

538
00:20:23,809 --> 00:20:25,250
Right? And that that's a powerful way of

539
00:20:25,250 --> 00:20:27,329
thinking that I think, again, gives you some

540
00:20:27,329 --> 00:20:30,470
insights into these error correcting or not regimes.

541
00:20:31,964 --> 00:20:34,045
And and finally, Tim, I I wanted to,

542
00:20:35,085 --> 00:20:36,845
to to, you know, ask you about,

543
00:20:37,644 --> 00:20:40,204
your wish list Mhmm. For for quantum. You

544
00:20:40,204 --> 00:20:41,184
know, let's say,

545
00:20:41,884 --> 00:20:43,884
sometime in the future, not too far in

546
00:20:43,884 --> 00:20:46,710
the future, Mhmm. You know, people are able

547
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:47,850
to build

548
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:50,490
reasonably large quantum computers.

549
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:54,009
Uh-huh. What what I mean, what sort of

550
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:56,309
well, I don't know if if is program

551
00:20:56,309 --> 00:20:58,255
the right word? What would you like to

552
00:20:58,255 --> 00:21:00,095
run on a quantum computer? What sort of

553
00:21:00,095 --> 00:21:01,555
system would you like to simulate

554
00:21:02,015 --> 00:21:03,954
or create on that computer?

555
00:21:04,255 --> 00:21:06,815
What what would be your first? Mhmm. I

556
00:21:06,815 --> 00:21:08,434
see. Yeah. That's that's a

557
00:21:09,055 --> 00:21:10,115
that's a good question.

558
00:21:12,015 --> 00:21:12,515
So

559
00:21:13,369 --> 00:21:16,029
I guess, you know, given my condensed matter

560
00:21:16,730 --> 00:21:18,990
background of, you know, dealing with very

561
00:21:20,330 --> 00:21:21,230
hard models,

562
00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:24,250
you know, that we think describe real quantum

563
00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:26,330
materials that we have yet to solve, I

564
00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:28,154
think I would still like to, you know,

565
00:21:28,154 --> 00:21:29,375
probably use a quantum

566
00:21:29,755 --> 00:21:32,715
computer to gain insights into those effective models

567
00:21:32,715 --> 00:21:33,695
of quantum materials.

568
00:21:34,795 --> 00:21:37,035
For example, there are, you know, these these

569
00:21:37,035 --> 00:21:39,855
thing called Hubbard models, which are effective descriptions

570
00:21:39,994 --> 00:21:41,934
of, like, high temperature, superconductors,

571
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:45,980
things like that. And, you know, they're they're

572
00:21:45,980 --> 00:21:46,480
very

573
00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:50,539
they're somewhat intractable for our classical computers to

574
00:21:50,539 --> 00:21:52,140
handle. And, also, we don't have that many

575
00:21:52,140 --> 00:21:53,599
great analytical techniques

576
00:21:54,059 --> 00:21:54,884
often to do.

577
00:21:55,605 --> 00:21:58,644
And so, you know, using some analog quantum

578
00:21:58,644 --> 00:22:00,984
simulator or maybe even a digital quantum computer,

579
00:22:02,484 --> 00:22:04,404
if we can get insights into, you know,

580
00:22:04,404 --> 00:22:06,105
like, the finite temperature properties

581
00:22:06,724 --> 00:22:07,285
of these,

582
00:22:07,684 --> 00:22:08,424
you know,

583
00:22:08,884 --> 00:22:10,265
strongly directing Hamiltonians,

584
00:22:10,819 --> 00:22:12,519
right, or, you know, like, the dynamics,

585
00:22:13,619 --> 00:22:15,380
I think that would be very, very useful

586
00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:16,519
and insightful.

587
00:22:17,299 --> 00:22:19,640
And I suppose beyond, you know, the

588
00:22:20,099 --> 00:22:21,160
the the pure physics,

589
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:23,460
if you could get a handle on those

590
00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:25,654
materials. Mhmm. That I mean, that would be

591
00:22:25,654 --> 00:22:28,394
a revolution in material science, wouldn't it? Right.

592
00:22:28,535 --> 00:22:30,075
Right. Yeah. You could design

593
00:22:30,454 --> 00:22:31,275
some amazing

594
00:22:31,815 --> 00:22:34,214
material. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So

595
00:22:34,214 --> 00:22:36,855
maybe maybe learning more about these effective models,

596
00:22:36,855 --> 00:22:39,095
their, you know, their final temperature properties would

597
00:22:39,095 --> 00:22:41,320
would give us insight into

598
00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:44,500
maybe, you know, how to design materials with,

599
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:46,359
like, higher TC, for example.

600
00:22:47,140 --> 00:22:47,640
Yeah.

601
00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:50,500
Well, thanks, Tim. Thanks for for speaking to

602
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:52,740
me, and, I hope that your dream will

603
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:55,255
come true. Yeah. Yeah. You'll get to, to

604
00:22:55,255 --> 00:22:58,294
do those those calculations or experiments or whatever

605
00:22:58,294 --> 00:23:00,054
you want to call it Yeah. Yeah. On

606
00:23:00,054 --> 00:23:02,294
the quantum computer sometime in the future. Thanks

607
00:23:02,294 --> 00:23:04,954
for coming on the podcast. Thanks, Alish. Thanks.

608
00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:16,269
That was Tim Shea of the Perimeter Institute

609
00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:17,869
for Theoretical Physics.

610
00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:20,910
Thanks to Tim for a fascinating discussion

611
00:23:21,289 --> 00:23:22,910
about all things quantum.

612
00:23:23,450 --> 00:23:25,789
And thank you for listening to this podcast,

613
00:23:26,204 --> 00:23:28,224
which is supported by the APS

614
00:23:28,845 --> 00:23:30,384
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615
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616
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617
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620
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631
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632
00:24:08,289 --> 00:24:10,849
We'll be back again next week with our

633
00:24:10,849 --> 00:24:13,109
top 10 breakthroughs in physics

634
00:24:13,410 --> 00:24:15,109
for 2025.

635
00:24:15,570 --> 00:24:19,029
Thanks to Fred Iles for producing this episode.