Dear Horse World, It's Dr. Stephen Peters: Evidence-Based Horsemanship & the Equine Mind - Part 1

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Dear Horse World, it's Dr. Steven Peters.

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Well, Steve, welcome to the
Dear Horse World Podcast.

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Well, I'm glad to be here.

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I am so excited.

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I am trying, I'm like, can barely contain
my excitement about everything that

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we're gonna talk about in this episode.

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I want you.

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To share with everybody a little bit of
your origin story, because before we press

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record, you shared some parts of your life
that I actually was completely unaware

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of, and I think it's really remarkable
for you to share a little bit of like,

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what did life look like before you were
an like a neuro practice, neuro practice.

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Probably what people don't know about me.

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I come from a military family,
so when people ask me, well,

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where do you come from?

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I've lived in Japan.

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I've lived in England.

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We've been all over with a
move, uh, every few years.

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I was born in Hawaii when it was
still a territory, even had a horse

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strawberry in Hawaii because like
every kid, uh, who's looking at

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that black and white TV with rabbit.

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You know, ear antennas, uh, I
watched a steady diet of raw

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hide and wagon train, et cetera.

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And so that's what I thought I
really wanted to be all along.

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Uh, I was a Navy officer, uh, because my
dad was a Navy pilot, so, and the, the

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military lifestyle was one I was really.

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Comfortable with.

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So, um, for five years I was a
Navy officer, but I had been dating

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my wife Fat's time before she
was my wife during that period.

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And I knew that I would spend a lot of
time at sea and that probably wasn't

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gonna be healthy for, uh, for a marriage.

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So she's a New Yorker, a city woman.

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And, um, I interviewed time and time
again because there's a quite a process at

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Goldman Sachs Investment Bank, and I went
to work there, um, for about two years.

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My dad, during this time, uh, began
to have seizures and we found out

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that he had a, a brain tumor that was
terminal, actually a glioblastoma.

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That just continued to grow.

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And so I became really fascinated
with the brain and sort of off track.

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Even from that is I'm on the autistic
spectrum, so when I lock into

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something, it's with a laser focus.

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Mm-hmm.

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And it's, it's sort of.

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Crazy because I'm, I can be easily
distracted, but at the same time,

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if I'm focused, then I can just
hone in and I just could not get

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this idea about brain tumors and
how brains function outta my mind.

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So after a lot of discussion with my
then wife, even though I knew I was

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gonna spend at least the next decade.

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Learning about brains.

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It was a passion for me.

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It was, uh, pretty easy choice.

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And so that's what drove me into school
and practicums and internships and

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residency and post-doctoral fellowships.

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Um, and my history from there
was I became a clinical.

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Um, neuroscientist and I'd see patients
all the time and assess brain functioning

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human patients.

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Human patients.

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Mm-hmm.

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Human patients.

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But nonetheless, that was the lens
that I looked at horses through,

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through, through their nervous system.

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And I could, I saw patterns pretty easily,
and I began to see patterns in horses

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that were related to their nervous system.

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I. From there I thought, you know,
but I don't have empirical data.

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I have seven horses.

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Whatever I do with these seven
horses is not gonna generalize

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out to the the horse world.

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And when I would ask people, you know,
why do you think your horse did this?

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They would say.

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Well, they're a right brain
introverted Sagittarius.

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You know, I'd hear all kinds of
reasons for why horses did things.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I began to read all the peer
reviewed literature and veterinary

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science, animal cognition.

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I began dissecting out horse
brains, but the piece missing was

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the observation of large numbers.

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So I found this guy, this cowboy, a fifth
generation cowboy, Martin Black, and um.

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We began interacting, and it was
fascinating to both of us because

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what he was seeing based on thousands
and thousands of observations I

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could support with the science.

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And I would say, Martin,
do you ever see this?

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He'd say, how do you know that?

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Well, I would say.

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Because I know how the brain works.

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And he said it took me like a thousand
horses, but I saw the see the same thing.

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And I might say, you see how that
facial nerve there gets activated

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and just sort of sticks out?

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And he said, oh yeah, you mean that
guitar string thing that in their

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face, our, our language was different,
but our observations were identical.

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Wow.

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And when the puzzle pieces started to fit
together, that's when Martin said, you

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know, we, we can't keep this to ourselves.

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We wrote a small book,
Evidence-Based Horsemanship,

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the Scientist and the Cowboy.

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Um, and the reason it's a smaller book.

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I had all these citations and
Martin said, what is this?

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And I said, well, this is
all the research to back up.

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It's evidence-based.

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I'm not saying anything.

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That's my opinion unless I
can support it with evidence.

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You said, well, who, who cares
about all these, these citations?

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I said, well, the scientists do say,
are we writing this for scientists?

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You know, do we want this to end up
in some academic library somewhere?

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Read by 20 scientists who
may not even see a horse.

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He said, let's just trim all that away.

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I want this.

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Book to fit in somebody's Saddleback.

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Oh, I love that.

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Yeah.

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And you know, that's a smart

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one for mer.

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I

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like

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that.

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Yeah, that was great.

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What we've done since that time
was we were, we've now written our

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new book, the Science and Practice
of Evidence-Based Horsemanship.

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That's got all kinds of citations in it.

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So anybody who wasn't satisfied with
the evidence to support all that

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information, it is chockfull of science.

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You can deep dive as deep as you want,
and the practical side, the application.

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Martin's still not done with that, but
the book's still coming out in the fall.

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He, in fact, as I was driving here, he
texted me, he said, I got one more story.

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I'm just about done with this,
but it's gotta be in the book.

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Yes,

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he wants to put the kitchen
sink in the book, everything.

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So, uh, this is probably five
times as thick as the book that

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we, we first did, but this is
gonna be more of our, our legacy.

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And these are where things have evolved.

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Two, it took me three and a half
years to gather the evidence and

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fine tune it for this, this book.

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So that's where we are now.

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And we are, uh, I give clinics.

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You do.

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We just finished one.

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Exactly.

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It's

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groundbreaking work.

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It's unbelievable.

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Every horse person on the
planet should take this course.

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The first and the second
one, in my humble opinion.

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Yeah.

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And it's not to do away with tradition,
you know, if some people are threatened

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by that, it's just evolution beyond
that because if you keep doing the

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same thing again and again, you're
saying it could never be any better.

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And for me it's, it becomes
really evident when.

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We're working with the nervous system
in the brain and when we're working

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against and when we work against,
that's not good for the rider.

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It's not in the horse's best interest
and will create tremendous stress when

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it really doesn't have to be there.

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And you can get so much farther.

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And I, I think, I think I tell
everyone that if you're just willing

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to peek through a different lens.

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You know, it can be so enlightening and
give you so much more in your toolbox.

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And even if you know the, how
you can get what you want out

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of your horse no matter what.

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You know, Warwick Schiller told
me that, you know, I could make

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horses do anything I wanted to.

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I didn't have a relationship
with any of those horses.

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I didn't have a connection.

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And I got depressed and got a
clinical depression because I felt

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like my horses didn't like me.

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And I went to the, you know, the
reigning warmup pens and it, after a

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while, it looked like every horse was
looking at me and making me feel guilty.

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Get me outta here, Warwick.

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And sometimes I feel the, the same way
we can make horses do whatever we want.

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But at a cost.

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And if we're able to work with
them, that's where the horse

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really shows us what's possible.

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So first off thing I wanna ask you is,
you've brought up the nervous system,

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and I know that there's gonna be quite a
few listeners or people who are watching

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this episode who are asking, well, Dr.

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Peters, what does the nervous
system have to do with the brain?

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It's all a system.

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Actually, the brain is part of the nervous
system all the way down the spinal cord.

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But I would say this, there's no
perception, no sensation, no reaction.

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Everything that your horse does,
every movement your horse makes

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has to go through the brain.

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So if you're saying that the brain
doesn't have relevance, that's

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the command and control center for
everything that's ever gonna happen

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in your horse and every memory.

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And you may say, well, I've
done something, something's

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wrong with my horse.

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And now it's a little embarrassing
to, to acknowledge that we all do,

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you know, until we know better.

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And then we, we do better.

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And the cool thing about it is.

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With a brain, you get a second chance.

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You can rewire the brain if you know
how, if you understand how the brain

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functions, you can actually make
anatomical changes in your horse's brain.

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Or you can keep guessing
or you can become dominant.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and enforce those things or.

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You can work with your horse in a, in
a dialogue, which versus a monologue,

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a dialogue in which you can fine tune
those, those connections and it's

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amazing where you can get with your horse
in terms of speaking their language.

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Yes, I think that's what really
resonated with me doing the

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course equine neuroscience.

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You know, the, be the introductory
course and then this advanced

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course that we just finished.

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What I, what really landed for
me is that every single person in

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the horse world wants to be able
to speak to their horse, right?

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Everyone says, I wanna, I wanna have
this, I unspoken language with my horse.

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I want them to understand me and I want,
you know, me to understand them, to

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understand how their brain works, is.

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I've come to understand is
a vital component to this.

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We actually, our horses, our horses'
brains are different to our brains,

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and I really, I'm excited for
you to explain that to everybody.

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How are our brains as humans,
different to horses' brains?

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First of all, I, I, I preface
this by saying in many ways

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they're remarkably similar.

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And even when you look at them
in dissection, you know, you.

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If you're not used to seeing brains.

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Yeah.

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Uh, you know, you could be
fooled by just their size.

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Uh, you may think that a
horse myth, a human size.

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So that's a myth.

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That's a myth that the horse's
brain is like a size of a walnut.

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Right.

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You've held a brain in your hand.

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I have.

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It's not the size of a walnut, everybody.

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Yeah.

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But the, the differences are.

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There's some sort of, uh, misnomer
going around out there that the

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horse doesn't have a frontal lobe.

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The all horses have frontal lobes.

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All mammals have frontal lobes.

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It's just that that frontal lobe has
evolved to make, meet the niche that

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the horse falls into evolutionarily.

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Mm-hmm.

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So that it's works best
for their survival.

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It's true they don't have a large
mass of tissue dedicated to frontal

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brain, frontal lobe type functions.

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The front, our frontal lobes make
up about one third of our brain.

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Wow.

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Right.

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Where theirs is much, much smaller.

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Mm-hmm.

238
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:42,295
They use their.

239
00:13:43,515 --> 00:13:44,505
Frontal lobe.

240
00:13:44,715 --> 00:13:49,125
Some of it's motor, uh,
cortex that just leaks over.

241
00:13:49,245 --> 00:13:54,735
So those are motor neurons in the, in
the frontal regions, but many of those,

242
00:13:54,824 --> 00:13:57,615
uh, connections are related to attention.

243
00:13:58,275 --> 00:14:01,935
So the horse's attention
is a frontal lobe focus.

244
00:14:02,595 --> 00:14:06,225
How important is that in
your work with horses?

245
00:14:06,735 --> 00:14:08,625
You can't learn anything
without attention,

246
00:14:09,285 --> 00:14:11,115
and I really want you to speak to.

247
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:16,470
How horses' attention
develops as per their age.

248
00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:18,030
That really blew my mind.

249
00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:24,930
Horses are born needing, if you think of
what sense does a horse need to survive

250
00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:28,110
immediately when they pop into the world?

251
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:28,530
Mm-hmm.

252
00:14:28,770 --> 00:14:30,690
They've gotta get on their
feet and they've gotta move.

253
00:14:30,690 --> 00:14:31,230
Yes.

254
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:37,140
And so the cerebellum, which is related
to balance sequencing, fine motor

255
00:14:37,140 --> 00:14:39,930
movement, that's starting to get.

256
00:14:40,005 --> 00:14:46,065
Myelinated and I'll talk in a minute about
myelination, um, and the motor cortex.

257
00:14:46,515 --> 00:14:50,145
So you'll see fos stretching
in crazy positions.

258
00:14:50,475 --> 00:14:52,995
You'll watch 'em leap in the
air and they don't know where

259
00:14:52,995 --> 00:14:55,305
they're going thought wise.

260
00:14:55,545 --> 00:14:58,995
When they reach the ground again, then
they pogo stick off somewhere else, but it

261
00:14:58,995 --> 00:15:04,965
doesn't take long until they're smoothly
moving right along in step with their mom.

262
00:15:05,985 --> 00:15:12,495
That's because every time a motor neuron
fires, it creates excitement in the brain

263
00:15:12,495 --> 00:15:18,075
and these other cells arrive and start to
wrap this fatty wrapping this insulation

264
00:15:18,075 --> 00:15:23,505
called myelin around that neuron,
making them more efficient and faster.

265
00:15:23,925 --> 00:15:30,015
A naked neuron sends messages about two
miles an hour, and some of that leaks off.

266
00:15:30,885 --> 00:15:34,785
But when you get myelinated, we're
talking about on the, on the,

267
00:15:35,265 --> 00:15:38,625
uh, impact of 200 miles an hour.

268
00:15:38,835 --> 00:15:43,335
And the message is not, doesn't
become diffuse over time.

269
00:15:43,335 --> 00:15:46,845
So these are clear messages, fast
messages, and that's where the

270
00:15:46,845 --> 00:15:52,155
horse myelinates, but the horse's
frontal lobe that they use for

271
00:15:52,155 --> 00:15:54,885
attention, that area's not really.

272
00:15:55,755 --> 00:16:00,915
Even beginning to be addressed
until they're 2, 3, 4 years old.

273
00:16:01,455 --> 00:16:07,575
So if they're using that area of the brain
for attention, we often are asking horses.

274
00:16:08,205 --> 00:16:12,135
Horses before they're two horses
at two horses in maturities.

275
00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:12,190
Mm-hmm.

276
00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:18,315
We, we de demand attention in our
training, and especially if we do

277
00:16:18,315 --> 00:16:19,905
this over long periods of time.

278
00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:25,230
We wouldn't dream of taking a 8-year-old
kid and sticking them in a three

279
00:16:25,230 --> 00:16:28,470
hour college lecture and telling
'em not to fidget and pay attention.

280
00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:30,450
But that's what we're doing when we ask

281
00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:32,610
year old horses exactly what we're doing.

282
00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:36,690
And if you see some horses can,
can do that, they're the freaks,

283
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:37,500
right?

284
00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:40,920
They're the, they're the,
they're this abnormal.

285
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,350
From a neuroscience point
of view, they're abnormal.

286
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:43,440
Right?

287
00:16:43,890 --> 00:16:51,270
And really their emotional and
psychological being has to be able to do

288
00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:55,350
that to pay attention in those situations.

289
00:16:55,710 --> 00:17:02,010
And so that makes that ratio of horses
to those that can do it even smaller.

290
00:17:02,820 --> 00:17:04,140
What happens to those other horses?

291
00:17:04,140 --> 00:17:08,819
That's kind of wastage that's kind of
thought of is, well, that's the price

292
00:17:08,819 --> 00:17:10,435
you pay to get to the top of the.

293
00:17:11,475 --> 00:17:12,495
Top of the pyramid,

294
00:17:12,555 --> 00:17:14,985
that was eight year olds that
can sit in college lectures.

295
00:17:15,075 --> 00:17:15,645
Yes.

296
00:17:15,795 --> 00:17:17,145
Mm. Exactly.

297
00:17:17,595 --> 00:17:20,625
So for everyone who's listening and
watching, you got a lot of people who

298
00:17:20,625 --> 00:17:24,645
listen to this podcast who are starting
their own horses or who are part of the

299
00:17:24,645 --> 00:17:28,575
starting of their own horses and across
different disciplines In the horse world,

300
00:17:28,725 --> 00:17:30,615
everyone has a different age benchmark.

301
00:17:30,885 --> 00:17:31,185
Right?

302
00:17:31,455 --> 00:17:31,875
So.

303
00:17:32,814 --> 00:17:35,395
More show jumping and more
of the Olympic disciplines.

304
00:17:35,395 --> 00:17:36,324
We start them later.

305
00:17:36,324 --> 00:17:39,685
We don't, we don't do futurities at that
level, but then you look at the race horse

306
00:17:39,685 --> 00:17:45,145
industry, those horses are racing big, big
industry races at very, very young ages.

307
00:17:45,504 --> 00:17:46,284
So can you give some.

308
00:17:47,189 --> 00:17:50,250
Could you give some benchmarks
to everybody about when,

309
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:51,510
when is that frontal lobe?

310
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:56,189
When when can we expect to have a healthy
level of attention from a young horse?

311
00:17:56,340 --> 00:17:56,760
Right?

312
00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:02,639
So this doesn't mean you don't handle
your horse when they're a 2-year-old.

313
00:18:02,669 --> 00:18:02,760
Mm-hmm.

314
00:18:03,149 --> 00:18:06,814
But what we need to do
is then realize that.

315
00:18:07,485 --> 00:18:11,805
Their attention has a limited
capacity, so you work with that.

316
00:18:12,345 --> 00:18:17,595
So you could do very small,
short, brief periods, which

317
00:18:17,595 --> 00:18:20,115
actually works better mm-hmm.

318
00:18:20,355 --> 00:18:23,115
Than long, drawn out repetitions.

319
00:18:23,115 --> 00:18:27,675
But that long, drawn out repetition
that requires long periods of attention.

320
00:18:27,975 --> 00:18:31,155
We are often dealing with a brain
that's not capable of doing that

321
00:18:31,335 --> 00:18:36,315
yet we're asking it and, and when
we don't get it, we become more.

322
00:18:37,139 --> 00:18:39,600
Controlling to try to force it.

323
00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:45,570
And what happens is you make changes
in the neurochemistry and you become,

324
00:18:45,689 --> 00:18:50,340
the horses become more sympathetically
aroused, and they'll either check out

325
00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:54,570
on you, they can become aggravated
or worse, yet they get confused,

326
00:18:54,689 --> 00:18:55,979
more sympathetically aroused.

327
00:18:55,979 --> 00:18:59,969
Now you're seeing behaviors that you don't
necessarily want, and so why would you.

328
00:19:00,659 --> 00:19:08,939
Push the horse into that position
to behave in that way when you can

329
00:19:08,939 --> 00:19:10,800
work with the nervous system mm-hmm.

330
00:19:11,129 --> 00:19:17,939
And, and avoid that altogether because
that you're just gonna have to go back

331
00:19:17,939 --> 00:19:23,790
and fix those fights that you put in
there, uh, in the, in the long run.

332
00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:28,439
Or you're gonna end up in
this back and forth contest.

333
00:19:28,889 --> 00:19:32,310
The horse, I think it was Ray Hunt that
said, you don't wanna contest your horse.

334
00:19:32,430 --> 00:19:32,820
Yes.

335
00:19:32,879 --> 00:19:33,270
Yeah.

336
00:19:33,420 --> 00:19:33,899
Mm-hmm.

337
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:36,810
Ray also said the slower you
go, the faster you learn.

338
00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:40,139
Well, he had a a pretty good handle on

339
00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:40,950
Yeah.

340
00:19:41,070 --> 00:19:41,670
On this.

341
00:19:42,690 --> 00:19:46,649
So when you talk about, 'cause
I'm picturing in my mind.

342
00:19:46,649 --> 00:19:49,500
Okay, so you're asking a young horse.

343
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,610
To go beyond their, their
neurological capacity.

344
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:54,060
Right.

345
00:19:54,629 --> 00:19:58,200
And then they have either in those
situations where maybe that person's

346
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,639
not neuro like this, they're not, their
training is not neuroscience informed.

347
00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:03,060
Right?

348
00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:04,320
They don't understand how the brain works.

349
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,385
So they're expecting
that three-year-old to

350
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,560
give them a long training session.

351
00:20:11,970 --> 00:20:14,310
So that horse has a
couple of options, right?

352
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,159
They can either, they
can either fight back.

353
00:20:17,504 --> 00:20:20,324
Because they'll become more
sympathetically aroused.

354
00:20:20,354 --> 00:20:21,344
So Fight or flight.

355
00:20:21,344 --> 00:20:21,824
Fight or flight.

356
00:20:21,824 --> 00:20:22,395
So, yeah.

357
00:20:22,395 --> 00:20:23,745
So fight is an option.

358
00:20:24,014 --> 00:20:27,225
Most, all the time the horse
is gonna take flight, right?

359
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,100
That's their choice.

360
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:30,225
That's their number one
choice for the most part.

361
00:20:30,254 --> 00:20:30,495
Yeah.

362
00:20:31,094 --> 00:20:34,784
Or they'll fight back, or, this is
from the sounds of it, this is the

363
00:20:34,784 --> 00:20:39,735
birth of, or what I would call the,
the makings of learned helplessness.

364
00:20:40,514 --> 00:20:40,905
Yeah.

365
00:20:41,534 --> 00:20:45,649
I, if you try something and you can't
escape the pain, so you might wanna go to.

366
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:50,460
Flight first, and this can
be, uh, emotional pain.

367
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:51,930
This could be psychological pain.

368
00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:53,430
It doesn't have to be physical pain.

369
00:20:54,389 --> 00:21:00,030
Uh, but if we take flight away from
you, then the horse may turn to fight.

370
00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:00,389
Mm-hmm.

371
00:21:00,930 --> 00:21:01,139
Right?

372
00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:06,720
If the horse doesn't turn to those two
options, oftentimes what they'll do is,

373
00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:09,270
is what's called a parasympathetic crash.

374
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,629
They'll just check out totally.

375
00:21:13,230 --> 00:21:16,050
And they can go to a freeze response.

376
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,520
Um, a true freeze response
is humans feel it too.

377
00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:25,290
You know, if somebody assaults you and
you, they're too big for you to fight.

378
00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:25,650
Mm-hmm.

379
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,290
And you can't run away,
they're holding onto you.

380
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:33,390
Oftentimes you say something horrendous
is gonna happen to me so horrendous

381
00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:35,280
that I don't want to be there for it.

382
00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:36,455
And you check out, right.

383
00:21:36,455 --> 00:21:37,335
You disassociate

384
00:21:37,950 --> 00:21:38,160
right.

385
00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:41,970
So disassociation is something
we see in people and in horses.

386
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:42,960
Absolutely.

387
00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:45,300
It's the way we protect ourselves.

388
00:21:46,170 --> 00:21:51,210
So can you make a horse smarter
and can you make a horse dumber?

389
00:21:51,810 --> 00:21:52,770
Absolutely.

390
00:21:53,220 --> 00:21:53,970
Absolutely.

391
00:21:54,930 --> 00:22:01,139
With any mammal, I could take them and
put them in an environment, one where

392
00:22:01,139 --> 00:22:05,160
they feel safe, uh, where they're, um.

393
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:09,090
Able to get motivated, get
dopamine on their own with

394
00:22:09,090 --> 00:22:10,500
an internal locus of control.

395
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:15,180
They may run a maze, they may have
treadmills, um, but they're with

396
00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:17,370
other animals of their species.

397
00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:23,190
And if after six months I were to look
at those brains, I would find all kinds

398
00:22:23,220 --> 00:22:28,980
of axonal connections and growth like
a tree arbor rising growing limbs.

399
00:22:29,910 --> 00:22:33,270
I could take the same animals.

400
00:22:34,139 --> 00:22:37,409
And I could isolate them from
other animals, just put them

401
00:22:37,409 --> 00:22:39,615
in their own pen without any.

402
00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:44,340
Other stimuli and they're
fed, they're taken care of.

403
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:45,060
They're fed.

404
00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:48,541
Their primary needs are,
quote, are met, met.

405
00:22:49,350 --> 00:22:53,250
But if I look at those brains
after six months, I'll find

406
00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:55,169
none of that arborization.

407
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,220
It's like I've gone in with
shears and trimmed off limbs

408
00:22:59,220 --> 00:23:00,510
and branch, I've done pruning.

409
00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:00,899
Mm-hmm.

410
00:23:00,899 --> 00:23:04,135
In fact, the they, it's
referred to as axonal pruning.

411
00:23:04,950 --> 00:23:09,510
And I can end up with a brain that
doesn't have those same connections,

412
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,160
and I could do even worse.

413
00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:16,770
I could totally isolate the
animal like in a cinder block.

414
00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:21,930
Um, enclosure, no other animals around.

415
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,510
This would be a sensory deprivation box.

416
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:30,060
And we, we have those in the horse world,
they're called box stalls, where the

417
00:23:30,060 --> 00:23:37,140
nature is to be able to use your senses
to see onto the horizon at long distances.

418
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,970
Well, I'll become nearsighted if the
only messages my eyes are receiving

419
00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:44,520
are the sides of the, of the stall.

420
00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:49,620
If I'm not moving around, then my motor
strip's not gonna function the same way.

421
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,300
If somebody shaves my
vibra, which are tactile.

422
00:23:54,930 --> 00:23:55,710
Sensors.

423
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:57,705
We know all those whiskers, right?

424
00:23:57,780 --> 00:23:58,080
Right.

425
00:23:58,260 --> 00:24:00,390
Mayors shouldn't have whiskers, right?

426
00:24:00,390 --> 00:24:05,760
So that's a cosmetic,
you know, human deal.

427
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:11,640
But if you're not, over time, not
receiving messages down those vibra

428
00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:16,440
and into your brain, which tell
you where you are in space, then.

429
00:24:17,250 --> 00:24:21,030
Once the brain doesn't receive
information, it becomes

430
00:24:21,030 --> 00:24:23,100
less effective once it does.

431
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:27,600
So when those hairs grow back, if
you've cut them for a long period of

432
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,870
time, you've sort of silenced a sense.

433
00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:31,950
I mean, think about that.

434
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:35,580
Here's a sense that needs to get their
brain, and you've made it silent.

435
00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:41,160
They use those to explore with, if
I chopped off your fingers, right?

436
00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:41,399
Yeah.

437
00:24:41,399 --> 00:24:44,340
Chopped off the fingers
of a blind pianist, right?

438
00:24:44,345 --> 00:24:44,535
Oh

439
00:24:44,610 --> 00:24:44,940
yeah.

440
00:24:45,885 --> 00:24:48,345
So they are sensory creatures.

441
00:24:48,345 --> 00:24:52,665
That's the way to think of the
horse is that they're sensing things

442
00:24:52,665 --> 00:24:55,695
that you absolutely cannot imagine.

443
00:24:56,115 --> 00:25:03,975
You as humans, we use our own brain
as sort of, uh, uh, comparison,

444
00:25:04,545 --> 00:25:06,885
and that makes sense because that's
the only kind of brain you have.

445
00:25:07,275 --> 00:25:09,855
You have a human brain, you know,
you haven't been studying brains

446
00:25:09,855 --> 00:25:12,420
all along, and so you use that.

447
00:25:13,545 --> 00:25:19,875
But if you stop and think of your world
and think of, uh, their world, they

448
00:25:19,875 --> 00:25:24,195
have almost a 340 degree panoramic view.

449
00:25:24,525 --> 00:25:28,995
They see the world out there, and
those eyes are sensitive to motion.

450
00:25:29,415 --> 00:25:32,445
So any little motion out
there gets picked up quickly.

451
00:25:32,475 --> 00:25:36,495
And a predator should
be designed like that.

452
00:25:37,125 --> 00:25:41,715
When it gets dark, they can see
when you're looking, trying to look

453
00:25:41,715 --> 00:25:44,295
in the dark 'cause they have rods.

454
00:25:44,595 --> 00:25:49,395
And rods bring in more
light, we have more cones.

455
00:25:49,635 --> 00:25:55,845
So color and clarity for us is,
is, and if we look straight ahead,

456
00:25:55,845 --> 00:25:58,875
that's what we'll see for them.

457
00:25:58,965 --> 00:26:04,035
The world's blurry and it doesn't
have the same colors in it.

458
00:26:04,065 --> 00:26:04,335
Yep.

459
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,810
Um, and they're seeing things
that you can't see because they're

460
00:26:09,810 --> 00:26:11,280
seeing back behind their head.

461
00:26:11,340 --> 00:26:11,669
Yeah.

462
00:26:11,669 --> 00:26:12,479
That's amazing.

463
00:26:12,719 --> 00:26:17,370
Um, and you can go over it each and
every sense, their sense of smell.

464
00:26:17,550 --> 00:26:20,580
You took a look at the
giant olfactory bulbs

465
00:26:20,610 --> 00:26:20,850
Yes.

466
00:26:21,030 --> 00:26:23,669
Of horses and saw how large those are.

467
00:26:24,104 --> 00:26:29,610
And, and you can tell how important
something is in a brain by either

468
00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:32,100
its its location or its size.

469
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:32,189
Mm-hmm.

470
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,379
Big things are a cerebellum
and olfactory bulbs.

471
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,540
Olfactory bulbs are smell, so when
they're sniffing that saddle pad,

472
00:26:42,629 --> 00:26:44,400
they're not sniffing the saddle pad.

473
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,230
They could smell that far away.

474
00:26:46,590 --> 00:26:48,960
They're likely rubbing their vibra on it.

475
00:26:49,290 --> 00:26:51,420
Then using those prehensile lips.

476
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,560
To investigate and maybe even
holding it in their teeth a little

477
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:00,360
bit to, to investigate, but they're
certainly not smelling it that

478
00:27:01,050 --> 00:27:03,750
they had, that they had that
on lockdown way before you even

479
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:04,980
put the saddle pad near them.

480
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:05,910
Absolutely.

481
00:27:06,919 --> 00:27:10,070
Something that you said to me that
really blew my mind was when we put

482
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:15,320
horses in box dolls and we, we deprive
them of the natural sensory information

483
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,250
that they need, that their sp that
their species has evolved from, that

484
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:20,780
they can actually become nearsighted.

485
00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:22,490
And that makes sense.

486
00:27:22,490 --> 00:27:23,270
You can do this with.

487
00:27:23,595 --> 00:27:25,845
Cats, they've done this
with all kinds of mammals.

488
00:27:26,055 --> 00:27:29,835
When you take away a s sense and it
doesn't register in the brain anymore,

489
00:27:30,315 --> 00:27:33,285
those neurons don't necessarily go fallow.

490
00:27:33,555 --> 00:27:38,955
Just other areas of the brain start to
use them, so they're no longer available.

491
00:27:39,255 --> 00:27:43,095
So when we take, so, I mean, and
our regulatory bodies have now

492
00:27:43,095 --> 00:27:48,075
made it, I, you know, illegal for
us to, to clip the Vibra, but I

493
00:27:48,075 --> 00:27:51,015
grew up clipping Whiskers or Vibra.

494
00:27:51,570 --> 00:27:57,270
Like all throughout my junior years
as a rider, so it now I think, oh

495
00:27:57,270 --> 00:28:00,960
well we started to see, you know,
horses bump into things or they go,

496
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,070
oh, you know, so and so horse like
cut their face again in the stall.

497
00:28:05,070 --> 00:28:06,780
Well, it's because we've taken away.

498
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,930
It's like not giving someone
who can't, like not giving,

499
00:28:10,050 --> 00:28:11,610
taking someone's glasses away.

500
00:28:11,970 --> 00:28:12,210
Right.

501
00:28:12,210 --> 00:28:12,360
There's

502
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,310
fii are in blind spots.

503
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:14,670
Right.

504
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:19,440
So that nail in the manger that
they may have sensed previously.

505
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,740
Now we get increased lip
trauma or eye trauma.

506
00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:25,890
And you're right, you put 'em
in a unfamiliar round pen and

507
00:28:25,890 --> 00:28:27,240
they're banging their face.

508
00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:30,660
Watch 'em use those vibra
with an electric fence.

509
00:28:30,660 --> 00:28:34,290
They know exactly how close
they can, they do, they can get.

510
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,090
So those are such fascinating structures.

511
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:46,620
The military uses, uh, something similar
for robots where they use sensors to tell

512
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:48,870
the robot where they are in space and.

513
00:28:49,890 --> 00:28:53,280
Technology is built on our horses.

514
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,170
Incredible sense.

515
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:56,460
That's the model.

516
00:28:56,730 --> 00:28:57,030
Yeah.

517
00:28:57,210 --> 00:29:00,450
We decide we're gonna trim it off
because we don't think it looked,

518
00:29:00,450 --> 00:29:01,680
we don't like way cosmetically.

519
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:01,950
Yeah.

520
00:29:01,950 --> 00:29:02,220
Yeah.

521
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,530
So something that happened yesterday and
it was a, it was so fascinating because

522
00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:08,910
throughout this studying with you.

523
00:29:10,125 --> 00:29:15,825
I've learned a lot about how horses
see and how they register and gain

524
00:29:15,825 --> 00:29:20,085
information from the depth and
like the dimensions of things.

525
00:29:20,085 --> 00:29:24,915
And because their is are not like ours,
they don't collect that data through

526
00:29:24,915 --> 00:29:26,445
their, is the same way that we do.

527
00:29:26,865 --> 00:29:30,870
So yesterday when I was crossing
bridges with my mare, I had this.

528
00:29:31,754 --> 00:29:37,185
Light bulb moment because she actually
as an appaloosa, she actually has,

529
00:29:37,334 --> 00:29:41,415
you know, she's, she's always gonna,
well, in her case back, um, supported

530
00:29:41,415 --> 00:29:43,754
by Dr. Dennis Brooks, who we love.

531
00:29:43,995 --> 00:29:45,855
We would do a shout out
for Dr. Dennis Brooks.

532
00:29:46,274 --> 00:29:51,645
He's helped me understand how lady sees
and how her eyesight as an appaloosa

533
00:29:51,824 --> 00:29:53,355
has a few more challenges to it.

534
00:29:53,355 --> 00:29:56,324
So she's had some uveitis
flareups, she's had some ulcers.

535
00:29:57,105 --> 00:29:59,655
So she actually has to work harder.

536
00:29:59,805 --> 00:30:03,405
And I've now, you and Dennis have
brought this together for me to

537
00:30:03,405 --> 00:30:07,665
understand that she moves a lot, so
she'll move her head around a lot.

538
00:30:07,784 --> 00:30:14,355
And I used to interpret that as not
defiance, but she's quite an opinionated

539
00:30:14,355 --> 00:30:17,325
horse and so she'll often act quite.

540
00:30:18,465 --> 00:30:20,445
Strongly if she doesn't feel safe.

541
00:30:20,925 --> 00:30:23,745
And yesterday I noticed that
we would come to a bridge.

542
00:30:23,925 --> 00:30:25,365
She needs to look at it.

543
00:30:25,365 --> 00:30:29,325
Not only does she need to drop her
head down, which some of us think our

544
00:30:29,325 --> 00:30:33,075
horses are smelling the ground, but now
that I understand the way that horses

545
00:30:33,075 --> 00:30:34,575
smell, they're not smelling the ground.

546
00:30:34,575 --> 00:30:37,545
They smelled it from when you
were walking up to the trailer.

547
00:30:37,785 --> 00:30:40,695
What they're doing is they're
understanding where the ledge

548
00:30:40,695 --> 00:30:44,685
of that, you know, the, the
gradient of that, of that ramp.

549
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,389
But what she was doing yesterday
totally clicked for me.

550
00:30:48,540 --> 00:30:51,780
She was actually looking like
she was looking behind, but

551
00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:54,240
actually knowing that she has.

552
00:30:54,975 --> 00:30:56,955
She doesn't have perfect
vision, but she doesn't have

553
00:30:56,955 --> 00:30:58,365
completely compromised vision.

554
00:30:58,665 --> 00:31:01,035
I actually think that what she was
trying to do is she was trying to

555
00:31:01,035 --> 00:31:06,045
really take in all of the dimensions
of that bridge because she needs extra

556
00:31:06,045 --> 00:31:10,035
information because she doesn't see
as well as maybe my other horse guano.

557
00:31:10,575 --> 00:31:11,264
Absolutely.

558
00:31:11,264 --> 00:31:16,004
You know, the Cary muscles in their,
in their eyes are, are weaker and

559
00:31:16,004 --> 00:31:21,149
it takes them a while to adjust
right in front, uh, where the.

560
00:31:21,935 --> 00:31:25,445
The vision from the two eyes
meet, they have binocular vision.

561
00:31:25,745 --> 00:31:27,245
That's their depth perception.

562
00:31:27,245 --> 00:31:32,825
So oftentimes they'll put their head down
to fall within that range of binocular

563
00:31:32,825 --> 00:31:34,475
vision, where are you likely to see it?

564
00:31:34,715 --> 00:31:37,865
Crossing a stream, going over a bridge.

565
00:31:38,225 --> 00:31:39,905
Sometimes we take that away from 'em.

566
00:31:39,965 --> 00:31:43,055
You know, if you're in a steeple chase
and you hold their head in a position,

567
00:31:43,055 --> 00:31:44,705
they're not able to put their head in.

568
00:31:45,575 --> 00:31:50,015
In a way that keeps it within binocular
vision, you go to the back of the

569
00:31:50,015 --> 00:31:53,375
trailer, oftentimes they'll put their
head down, especially if it's one of

570
00:31:53,375 --> 00:31:56,735
those step up trailers, because they
wanna see how high they need to step.

571
00:31:57,245 --> 00:32:01,085
If we don't want their head down and we
yank it up and take vision away from them,

572
00:32:01,355 --> 00:32:03,185
they're blindly going onto that trailer.

573
00:32:03,185 --> 00:32:06,395
They bang their legs because
they don't know how high to step.

574
00:32:06,425 --> 00:32:09,935
And now, where did this trailer
loading problem come from?

575
00:32:10,235 --> 00:32:15,035
Well, we took away a sense when
they would've helped us to.

576
00:32:15,389 --> 00:32:20,159
To climb a board, they totally
relied on us, and I think we

577
00:32:20,159 --> 00:32:26,070
need to take responsibility
for the times that we cause.

578
00:32:26,129 --> 00:32:30,419
Our horses difficulty when we ask them
to do things they're not capable of

579
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,449
when we remove one of their senses.

580
00:32:33,510 --> 00:32:33,600
Yes.

581
00:32:34,274 --> 00:32:34,754
Yes.

582
00:32:35,145 --> 00:32:39,435
So it made me think of blinders in
a completely new way when I thought

583
00:32:39,435 --> 00:32:43,425
about horses, because horses actually,
and the more and more I observe

584
00:32:43,425 --> 00:32:47,235
lady, the more and more I realize
that she really has to work to like

585
00:32:47,385 --> 00:32:49,274
take in a lot of visual information.

586
00:32:49,274 --> 00:32:51,975
And she might take
longer to do that, right?

587
00:32:52,245 --> 00:32:55,544
She's older and she does
have compromised vision, so.

588
00:32:57,045 --> 00:32:59,445
If I yank her head up because
I think that she's not paying

589
00:32:59,445 --> 00:33:01,215
attention to what I want her to do.

590
00:33:01,515 --> 00:33:04,545
And what, what really
solidified that after?

591
00:33:04,575 --> 00:33:09,375
'cause I was, I had some dwell time
after my ride yesterday was, and we're

592
00:33:09,375 --> 00:33:12,585
gonna talk about dwell time was um.

593
00:33:13,004 --> 00:33:17,175
When I was at Craig Cameron's and she
did her first Cowboy Challenge course,

594
00:33:17,475 --> 00:33:21,105
he had us, and this is again where
the Cowboy Wisdom meets the science.

595
00:33:21,254 --> 00:33:24,825
He was like, I want you to walk both
sides, circles around every obstacle.

596
00:33:24,825 --> 00:33:25,995
I don't want you to go over it.

597
00:33:26,025 --> 00:33:29,325
I just want you to circle around
it and really let your horses get.

598
00:33:30,540 --> 00:33:36,720
Like get a look at every aspect, every
corner of that bridge or that pedestal

599
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,100
or whatever it was that we were doing.

600
00:33:38,190 --> 00:33:41,400
He had us circle once, circle a
couple times around one way and

601
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,990
then the other, and then leave,
and then go look at another, go

602
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:47,370
look another part of the course.

603
00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:51,750
So then when we went and actually did
the course, the horses had no problem.

604
00:33:52,335 --> 00:33:57,165
Because he had, he had really set us up
to like introduce each of the obstacles.

605
00:33:57,285 --> 00:34:01,005
And I thought that was fascinating,
understanding the science now, because

606
00:34:01,005 --> 00:34:03,945
what he's doing is he's allowing
the horse to take in information on

607
00:34:03,945 --> 00:34:07,875
the height, the depth, the dimension
of everything that we're doing.

608
00:34:07,995 --> 00:34:11,715
And then I think, how many times
have I jumped courses on horses?

609
00:34:11,715 --> 00:34:14,925
How many times have I, you know,
gone into new environments?

610
00:34:14,925 --> 00:34:17,595
And the horses don't get any
chance to take in any information.

611
00:34:17,595 --> 00:34:19,635
They're just asked to go straight.

612
00:34:20,085 --> 00:34:23,745
Which is actually not, and their
head has to be straight, but that's

613
00:34:23,745 --> 00:34:25,424
not necessarily how they see.

614
00:34:26,114 --> 00:34:30,045
Providing them with information
and giving them time to process

615
00:34:30,045 --> 00:34:32,625
the information is so important.

616
00:34:32,955 --> 00:34:33,677
You know, you looked at it.

617
00:34:34,364 --> 00:34:37,844
And making the assumption that
information's being processed.

618
00:34:38,174 --> 00:34:42,884
But if they're onto the next thing, now
you have more competing information coming

619
00:34:42,884 --> 00:34:47,355
into the brain before the brain has time
to process what they've been exposed to.

620
00:34:47,534 --> 00:34:52,484
And then we do it again, and then we do
it again, and the the horse is left with

621
00:34:52,484 --> 00:34:57,254
fragments to put together themselves
because they haven't had the opportunity

622
00:34:57,254 --> 00:35:03,225
to consolidate that and start to lock
that information away accurately.

623
00:35:04,110 --> 00:35:09,870
When we say neurons that fire together,
wire together, can you explain what

624
00:35:09,870 --> 00:35:11,790
that means and the science behind it?

625
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:12,900
Absolutely.

626
00:35:13,470 --> 00:35:15,690
Uh, without getting too sciencey.

627
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:15,870
Mm-hmm.

628
00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:20,580
Because really, uh, that's
not what I, I ever want to do.

629
00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:25,290
I want to give information that
has real world application.

630
00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:30,030
You can learn some big
words, but, uh, I want to.

631
00:35:30,734 --> 00:35:34,575
Share information that people
can take back to their horse.

632
00:35:34,995 --> 00:35:39,105
And I always say, you know, I'm not
making this up, just ask your horse.

633
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:39,480
Mm-hmm.

634
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:39,799
Right.

635
00:35:40,365 --> 00:35:41,714
So this is how this works.

636
00:35:42,165 --> 00:35:48,075
You have, you and your horse have a,
a neurotransmitter called glutamate.

637
00:35:48,375 --> 00:35:54,435
It's the major excitatory neurotransmitter
in your system and in your horses.

638
00:35:54,585 --> 00:35:58,395
So if you move your right arm,
you're firing glutamate neurons

639
00:35:58,395 --> 00:36:00,165
all the way up to your left motor.

640
00:36:00,509 --> 00:36:01,229
Cortex.

641
00:36:01,890 --> 00:36:07,890
So if we do something new, then
we are firing a new pattern.

642
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:12,990
Glu glutamatergic neurons will fire in a
new pattern if we're doing something new.

643
00:36:13,709 --> 00:36:18,149
If we do it a second time,
then we're sending information

644
00:36:18,149 --> 00:36:20,910
down that same new pathway.

645
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,120
We do it, uh, quite a few times.

646
00:36:24,660 --> 00:36:29,340
What happens is, and here's your $10
word for the day, oligodendrocytes

647
00:36:29,790 --> 00:36:31,259
will arrive on the scene.

648
00:36:31,259 --> 00:36:36,480
They get excited by this firing
and will begin to wrap that.

649
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,170
As we had discussed earlier,
that neuron in myelin.

650
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:47,310
So by firing neurons that fire
together get wired together and

651
00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:51,810
that starts out like a little feeder
road and then you keep working that.

652
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:53,640
And I don't mean by rote.

653
00:36:54,435 --> 00:36:56,955
Drilling, and we'll talk
about why that doesn't work.

654
00:36:57,255 --> 00:37:01,815
But over time you keep firing that
new pattern of neurons and you're

655
00:37:02,595 --> 00:37:04,545
essentially paving a highway.

656
00:37:04,995 --> 00:37:10,185
You start out like a, a footpath and then
a small country road, and then you get

657
00:37:10,185 --> 00:37:12,435
the mile in and now it becomes a highway.

658
00:37:12,615 --> 00:37:19,815
And information very easily, rapidly,
quickly follows that new highway.

659
00:37:20,085 --> 00:37:21,960
So getting back to what you had asked.

660
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:28,680
Way back in the, in this podcast was, you
know, can you make your horse smarter?

661
00:37:28,980 --> 00:37:31,530
You can certainly wire the brain.

662
00:37:31,890 --> 00:37:31,980
Mm-hmm.

663
00:37:32,220 --> 00:37:37,320
And you can rewire these pathways
and you can take existing neuro

664
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,690
networks and wire them together.

665
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:43,290
So it's amazing how.

666
00:37:44,009 --> 00:37:47,910
Smart your horse can get and
how much they want to learn.

667
00:37:48,210 --> 00:37:53,009
If we provide them with a foundation and
we provide them with the architecture

668
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:58,710
in their brain, and that's, that's
you learning to almost like a welder,

669
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,270
learning to go in and wire those
connections that you, that you want.

670
00:38:03,870 --> 00:38:09,360
But if you have your horse in the
wrong state, then those messages are

671
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,160
not gonna take your new feeder road.

672
00:38:11,370 --> 00:38:13,110
They're gonna go to areas of the brain.

673
00:38:13,515 --> 00:38:17,025
Like the amygdala, an area of
the brain associated with fear.

674
00:38:17,505 --> 00:38:21,555
So if you are forcing things to
happen, you're sending more of

675
00:38:21,555 --> 00:38:25,365
those messages, not down the,
the highway that you're creating.

676
00:38:25,634 --> 00:38:29,955
You're sending them to another area of
the brain that's relates to fear, and

677
00:38:29,955 --> 00:38:35,625
now you're gonna get fear responses
and there's no way that pattern of

678
00:38:35,625 --> 00:38:38,115
neurons is gonna fire when they're.

679
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:43,080
Under the influence of cortisol
and NN neurotransmitters we

680
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:43,859
haven't talked about yet.

681
00:38:43,890 --> 00:38:48,270
Norepinephrine, uh, that will
send them a different way.

682
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,620
And if they're afraid and you
keep training, you're gonna train

683
00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:59,700
that fear right into the task that
you're, you're trying to accomplish.

684
00:38:59,910 --> 00:39:01,890
And there's not a lot of
learning that's gonna take place.

685
00:39:01,890 --> 00:39:04,649
You're gonna deal with
emotional side effects.

686
00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:04,950
Yes.

687
00:39:05,279 --> 00:39:06,420
And you put 'em in there.

688
00:39:07,110 --> 00:39:08,100
You put 'em in there.

689
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,090
Not your horse.

690
00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:15,990
Your your horse is really pretty
much your, your construction project

691
00:39:17,580 --> 00:39:18,840
when we're talking about the brain.

692
00:39:20,250 --> 00:39:24,420
So something that I learned
from you is that the amygdala

693
00:39:24,420 --> 00:39:25,770
is also attached to memory.

694
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,200
So fear, and this makes sense from
an evolutionary point of view.

695
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:34,710
The fear part of the brain is attached
to the memory part of the brain.

696
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:40,830
So if we train, like we, you can see
how quickly we get into trouble if

697
00:39:40,830 --> 00:39:46,050
we use fear-based training because
those horses, those we, we wire or

698
00:39:46,050 --> 00:39:48,540
we pave the wrong highways, right?

699
00:39:48,810 --> 00:39:55,045
That we want to be paving highways that
have positive association that have.

700
00:39:55,770 --> 00:39:57,750
The right chemicals associated with them.

701
00:39:58,260 --> 00:40:03,000
I want you to explain the science
behind repaving 'cause this is something

702
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,560
that I've had, that I've done with
my mare, and your work helped me

703
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,860
understand this a hundred to one ratio.

704
00:40:11,820 --> 00:40:15,000
That when you have a horse that has been
traumatized or you have a horse that's

705
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,620
experienced a lot of fear-based training
or you have a, you have a horse that's

706
00:40:20,310 --> 00:40:24,450
been in a state of self preservation
for a large part of their life, you have

707
00:40:24,450 --> 00:40:29,190
highways that you have to very slowly,
and the one of the only things that

708
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:31,050
you really have to work with is time.

709
00:40:32,310 --> 00:40:32,880
'cause time.

710
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:38,310
Is it like the only way to do
101 if you're also honoring

711
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,050
the neuroscience of learning?

712
00:40:41,175 --> 00:40:42,015
Dwell time.

713
00:40:42,105 --> 00:40:46,904
The only thing that's gonna repair
that those, those maybe less supportive

714
00:40:46,904 --> 00:40:48,705
highways in their brain is time.

715
00:40:49,665 --> 00:40:50,055
Right.

716
00:40:50,325 --> 00:40:55,095
So can you explain how we rewire
and this a hundred to one ratio and

717
00:40:55,095 --> 00:40:58,725
the a hundred to one ratio is
not always a hundred to one.

718
00:40:58,815 --> 00:40:59,055
Right?

719
00:40:59,115 --> 00:41:02,205
But what you're talking
about is a rehab horse.

720
00:41:02,210 --> 00:41:02,230
Mm-hmm.

721
00:41:02,924 --> 00:41:07,845
Basically, and to rehab that horse, we
may need a hundred good experiences to

722
00:41:07,845 --> 00:41:10,305
make up for the one bad, the one bad.

723
00:41:10,694 --> 00:41:16,665
So first of all, let's talk about the
architecture in the brain where the

724
00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:23,475
amygdala, which is, uh, Latin for almond,
because early neuroanatomist thought it

725
00:41:23,625 --> 00:41:26,834
looked like an alman, and it, it actually.

726
00:41:27,569 --> 00:41:32,759
Is at the tip of the hippocampus Greek
for seahorse because it looks like that.

727
00:41:33,359 --> 00:41:37,620
So our almond is attached to our
seahorse and our seahorse iss memory.

728
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,089
The hippocampus is memory.

729
00:41:39,450 --> 00:41:45,120
So if I'm a Vietnam veteran and I feel
I'm gonna die and I see some horrendous

730
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:51,720
things, then my amygdala is gonna
supercharge my memory by hippocampus.

731
00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:52,140
Now it.

732
00:41:52,830 --> 00:41:56,790
When it works efficiently,
things that are gonna harm us.

733
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,000
We remember those, so we don't
put ourself in harm's way.

734
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,160
But if I supercharge that amygdala,
I'm ending up with a memory,

735
00:42:05,370 --> 00:42:07,154
I can now no longer forget.

736
00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:13,080
Mm. So if I'm the Vietnam vet walking
on the beach in the hot sand and

737
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,950
the palm fronds are blowing in the
wind and the news helicopter flies

738
00:42:16,950 --> 00:42:21,450
over, now I am right back in Vietnam.

739
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:21,690
Mm.

740
00:42:22,770 --> 00:42:25,740
You know, not something
like it somatically.

741
00:42:25,740 --> 00:42:30,330
My system is responding as if I were okay.

742
00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:35,460
Now let me use the example of,
of my horse comet that I needed

743
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:37,050
a lot of good experiences.

744
00:42:37,395 --> 00:42:41,475
To get, to be able to make progress.

745
00:42:42,015 --> 00:42:47,835
So Comet was a, a beautiful paint
horse running around in a herd with a

746
00:42:47,835 --> 00:42:49,725
lot of other horses on a big acreage.

747
00:42:51,645 --> 00:42:53,415
Comet's owner could not catch her.

748
00:42:54,225 --> 00:42:58,515
So he and his friends d devised a a shoot.

749
00:42:58,965 --> 00:43:01,935
And so they put up panels
to, to create a shoot.

750
00:43:02,175 --> 00:43:03,615
They ran around till she was tired.

751
00:43:03,615 --> 00:43:05,835
Finally, she chose the, the shoot.

752
00:43:05,835 --> 00:43:09,015
They, they ran her to the end of the
shoot and closed her in a small pen.

753
00:43:09,615 --> 00:43:14,805
What we've got going on now is, is fight
has been, uh, flight has been removed.

754
00:43:14,895 --> 00:43:15,975
That was her first choice.

755
00:43:15,975 --> 00:43:16,905
Just run away.

756
00:43:17,055 --> 00:43:17,145
Mm-hmm.

757
00:43:17,385 --> 00:43:18,075
But now she can't.

758
00:43:18,135 --> 00:43:19,125
She's in a small pen.

759
00:43:21,015 --> 00:43:23,504
He went in and she started to rear up.

760
00:43:23,865 --> 00:43:28,365
He got frightened, so he got a whip, and
as she reared up, he would whip at her.

761
00:43:28,694 --> 00:43:32,205
So she began to paw at
him and it scared him.

762
00:43:32,745 --> 00:43:38,955
Um, he got out of the, the pen and
he, on his way out, he punched her.

763
00:43:39,555 --> 00:43:41,745
And I said, what, what were
you teaching her there?

764
00:43:41,895 --> 00:43:44,174
That's for all the times I've
tried to catch her and for all

765
00:43:44,174 --> 00:43:46,214
this, the crap that she's given me.

766
00:43:46,815 --> 00:43:47,714
So in terms.

767
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,830
Punishment plays no role.

768
00:43:49,830 --> 00:43:52,920
There's no study out there
that shows punishment as an

769
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,660
effective learning strategy.

770
00:43:55,860 --> 00:43:59,340
Um, so I bought Comet
and got her out of there.

771
00:44:00,660 --> 00:44:05,430
And whenever a human came close
to her, she would rear and paw.

772
00:44:06,090 --> 00:44:10,440
So she was flooded with
uh, a neurochemical called

773
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,840
norepinephrine, highly aroused.

774
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,115
She was immediately in fight or flight.

775
00:44:15,795 --> 00:44:17,775
Immediately and, and fight.

776
00:44:18,375 --> 00:44:21,645
She couldn't help this because
those neurons wired together.

777
00:44:21,645 --> 00:44:27,315
So any sense that she was in danger
sent the messages down that pathway.

778
00:44:28,890 --> 00:44:33,090
I like to call this the
signal to noise ratio, right?

779
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,490
The signal is our relevant information
and our noise is irrelevant

780
00:44:38,490 --> 00:44:43,380
information, and if she's so fearful,
she can never hear my signal.

781
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:47,790
She's just too concerned
with all the noise around.

782
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,510
So my job is not necessarily to train.

783
00:44:52,115 --> 00:44:53,975
It's to start those good experiences.

784
00:44:53,975 --> 00:45:00,424
So it took me a long time to creep
towards her, her pen, to creep towards

785
00:45:00,424 --> 00:45:05,555
the round pen, and she'd start to get
aroused and start to move and start to to

786
00:45:05,555 --> 00:45:08,134
run and then get in the back of the pen.

787
00:45:08,314 --> 00:45:11,285
And I knew she was ready to
go up and start this rearing.

788
00:45:11,765 --> 00:45:12,665
This is built in.

789
00:45:12,875 --> 00:45:14,975
This is not a conscious decision.

790
00:45:14,975 --> 00:45:17,674
This is not a bad horse
deciding to do this.

791
00:45:17,944 --> 00:45:21,875
This is where the messages are gonna go
when we're in that emotional s. State.

792
00:45:22,745 --> 00:45:22,835
Mm-hmm.

793
00:45:23,075 --> 00:45:31,774
So over time, I was able to develop
some bit of a, of a relationship, but

794
00:45:31,774 --> 00:45:36,154
I still had to approach her from the
side, not head on, because that's the

795
00:45:36,154 --> 00:45:37,745
trigger that would cause this problem.

796
00:45:38,345 --> 00:45:40,355
Now I have to change the camera chemistry.

797
00:45:40,355 --> 00:45:45,575
I'm, I'm draining off the
norepinephrine and I have to find a way.

798
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:51,120
We need motivation for learning,
attention, safety, and motivation.

799
00:45:51,509 --> 00:45:53,400
So I needed her feeling safe.

800
00:45:53,820 --> 00:45:54,960
I needed her attention.

801
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:55,920
That was no problem.

802
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,980
She was really focused on
anything that was a threat.

803
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:01,830
But I had to find dopamine.

804
00:46:02,250 --> 00:46:05,580
And to get dopamine, oftentimes
you have to move towards something.

805
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:07,440
Dopamine is the motivating.

806
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:07,860
Dopamine

807
00:46:08,340 --> 00:46:12,660
is the neurotransmitter that's
related to reward and movement.

808
00:46:13,770 --> 00:46:15,450
Nature may have set it up that way.

809
00:46:15,630 --> 00:46:17,250
You have to move to a new pasture.

810
00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:19,860
You have to move and look over
the hill so you can see if there

811
00:46:19,860 --> 00:46:21,060
are other mares over there.

812
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:22,410
What, whatever.

813
00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:29,010
So, and people with Parkinson's
disease who have less dopamine, it's

814
00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:32,580
a neurodegenerative disease where
they have less dopamine on board.

815
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,830
Their movement's affected, they shuffle.

816
00:46:34,980 --> 00:46:35,370
Right,

817
00:46:35,460 --> 00:46:35,700
right.

818
00:46:36,180 --> 00:46:39,840
So movement and reward
are, are closely tied.

819
00:46:40,290 --> 00:46:46,020
So if I were to introduce something
to Calmed that came from the out

820
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:52,020
side externally and caused her
to just stand and tolerate what I

821
00:46:52,020 --> 00:46:56,310
was presenting, she would rear, I
knew that that pathway would fire.

822
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:01,500
I had to develop some curiosity,
so I held things away from her,

823
00:47:01,650 --> 00:47:03,750
so she would have to investigate.

824
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:09,000
Now she's moving toward, and then when
she's able to say, okay, that's safe.

825
00:47:09,299 --> 00:47:12,120
She gets more serotonin, she gets less.

826
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,810
No epinephrine, serotonin
is emotional balance, right?

827
00:47:16,290 --> 00:47:20,940
Serotonin is, is related to all of,
most of all of our antidepressants.

828
00:47:21,299 --> 00:47:23,970
When you get low serotonin,
you get selective.

829
00:47:24,690 --> 00:47:27,779
Serotonin reuptake inhibitors
like, like, uh, Prozac.

830
00:47:27,900 --> 00:47:27,990
Mm-hmm.

831
00:47:29,279 --> 00:47:32,100
So she was becoming more
emotionally balanced.

832
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:38,430
I was reducing the noise and she started
to become curious once that was happening

833
00:47:38,430 --> 00:47:40,500
and she felt safe enough to explore.

834
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,799
She came out of her shell,
but I had to give her small

835
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:47,759
successes, small uh, releases.

836
00:47:48,299 --> 00:47:51,240
And I want to be, uh, clear on this point.

837
00:47:52,410 --> 00:47:58,200
A release is when you take the cue
off, when you take the pressure off.

838
00:47:58,320 --> 00:47:58,410
Mm-hmm.

839
00:47:59,250 --> 00:48:02,100
Relief is when your
horse actually feels it.

840
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,009
Sometimes you can release, but
if your horse doesn't feel it,

841
00:48:08,009 --> 00:48:09,900
they're not getting the reward,

842
00:48:09,930 --> 00:48:11,520
they're not getting the
chemicals they need.

843
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:11,910
Right.

844
00:48:12,060 --> 00:48:12,660
To learn.

845
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:13,259
Right.

846
00:48:13,980 --> 00:48:17,370
So the three, this is so important,
I wanna really reinforce this.

847
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:18,660
The three.

848
00:48:19,350 --> 00:48:21,959
Fundamental ingredients
for horses to learn.

849
00:48:22,020 --> 00:48:22,589
And humans.

850
00:48:22,649 --> 00:48:23,700
And humans to learn.

851
00:48:23,759 --> 00:48:24,149
Yes.

852
00:48:24,149 --> 00:48:25,859
And this is important for everybody.

853
00:48:26,669 --> 00:48:30,120
There's a lot of examples, and I even
have a few myself of when I didn't

854
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,379
have these three in my learning
in, in my horsemanship journey and

855
00:48:34,379 --> 00:48:37,620
I didn't learn, and then I get, my
trainers would get frustrated with me.

856
00:48:38,310 --> 00:48:41,549
But if we don't feel safe,
if we don't have motivation.

857
00:48:42,299 --> 00:48:45,660
And the third one is attention,
if we don't have our attention.

858
00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:47,339
So attention is norepinephrine.

859
00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:49,140
Yes.

860
00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:49,500
Okay.

861
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:53,670
Well actually, uh, attention
is acetylcholine, right?

862
00:48:54,540 --> 00:48:54,900
Right.

863
00:48:55,380 --> 00:48:59,880
Uh, but norepinephrine is
our neurochemical of arousal.

864
00:49:00,150 --> 00:49:00,300
Right?

865
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:07,620
And this is a, this is a key point,
is if we are afraid of norepinephrine

866
00:49:07,620 --> 00:49:10,500
and we start to see our horse get
sympathetically aroused, and we say,

867
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:12,450
oh, they're out of their comfort zone.

868
00:49:12,540 --> 00:49:14,730
You know, I, this is not a good thing.

869
00:49:16,635 --> 00:49:19,725
I don't want you to think that
a horse has to just stay in that

870
00:49:19,905 --> 00:49:24,165
comfortable homeostatic range
because learning's not optimum there.

871
00:49:24,465 --> 00:49:24,885
Right.

872
00:49:24,975 --> 00:49:26,475
You need to be challenged.

873
00:49:26,805 --> 00:49:27,075
Right.

874
00:49:27,105 --> 00:49:31,425
Kids with their head down on the
back of the, the desk may feel safe

875
00:49:31,425 --> 00:49:33,615
in the classroom sleeping right.

876
00:49:34,155 --> 00:49:37,605
Uh, and they may have found
something else motivating.

877
00:49:37,665 --> 00:49:37,755
Mm-hmm.

878
00:49:38,055 --> 00:49:42,855
But, but you don't have
their, their attention, so you

879
00:49:42,855 --> 00:49:44,535
need that level of arousal.

880
00:49:45,570 --> 00:49:52,170
People I think, have tended to look
at the autonomic nervous system.

881
00:49:53,130 --> 00:49:54,510
Sympathetic nervous system.

882
00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:56,250
Parasympathetic nervous system.

883
00:49:56,250 --> 00:49:58,560
Sympathetic nervous
system, fight or flight.

884
00:49:58,560 --> 00:49:58,800
Fight.

885
00:49:58,915 --> 00:49:59,895
Parasympathetic.

886
00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:04,710
Parasympathetic is rest and
digest, but there's a balance.

887
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:05,910
One's not good.

888
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:06,895
One's not bad.

889
00:50:06,995 --> 00:50:09,695
Mm. We need the sympathetic
nervous system to learn.

890
00:50:10,635 --> 00:50:15,315
We have to be aroused enough to focus our
attention and we get our biggest dopamine

891
00:50:15,315 --> 00:50:18,315
hits with that high level of arousal.

892
00:50:18,495 --> 00:50:19,065
Yes.

893
00:50:19,635 --> 00:50:24,015
If you go too far, the idea is
you have to let the horse reset

894
00:50:24,015 --> 00:50:28,365
and come back down before you
go back and apply more pressure.

895
00:50:28,485 --> 00:50:28,995
Vital.

896
00:50:29,250 --> 00:50:32,385
Well, and this learning from you has
made me realize, I used to think,

897
00:50:32,445 --> 00:50:34,035
and I think a lot of the way that.

898
00:50:34,485 --> 00:50:38,145
The sympathetic and this parasympathetic
nervous systems, or on and autonom nervous

899
00:50:38,145 --> 00:50:40,154
system has been presented visually.

900
00:50:40,154 --> 00:50:42,915
It's like a bubble over
here and a bubble over here.

901
00:50:43,185 --> 00:50:47,445
But in actual fact, it's more like
a Venn diagram where there's a

902
00:50:47,445 --> 00:50:52,275
crossover and there's this beautiful,
optimal, um, area of learning.

903
00:50:53,415 --> 00:50:57,375
Also there could be, like we talked
about already, the parasympathetic crash.

904
00:50:57,675 --> 00:51:01,245
So when a horse freezes or
goes into learned helplessness,

905
00:51:01,275 --> 00:51:02,895
that is parasympathetic crash.

906
00:51:02,895 --> 00:51:04,515
That is not there.

907
00:51:04,515 --> 00:51:05,925
That's, that's not sympathetic.

908
00:51:05,925 --> 00:51:07,695
That's full parasympathetic crash.

909
00:51:07,935 --> 00:51:09,615
So there are bad stages there.

910
00:51:09,615 --> 00:51:13,335
There's also like a, there's a too
far in the parasympathetic as well.

911
00:51:13,335 --> 00:51:13,605
Wow.

912
00:51:14,384 --> 00:51:15,345
Which is so important.

913
00:51:16,065 --> 00:51:16,425
So, right.

914
00:51:16,425 --> 00:51:17,595
So freeze.

915
00:51:18,105 --> 00:51:18,465
Right.

916
00:51:18,615 --> 00:51:21,495
The freeze response is a
parasympathetic response.

917
00:51:21,735 --> 00:51:24,225
Your heart rate decreases.

918
00:51:24,435 --> 00:51:27,285
You feel like you're gonna faint
when it happens with humans.

919
00:51:27,285 --> 00:51:30,435
It's a vasal, vagal type of response.

920
00:51:30,615 --> 00:51:31,785
So you can't look.

921
00:51:32,595 --> 00:51:33,705
Sex is sympathetic.

922
00:51:34,005 --> 00:51:35,415
Play is sympathetic.

923
00:51:35,505 --> 00:51:35,595
Yeah.

924
00:51:35,595 --> 00:51:37,605
A lot of good stuff happens up there

925
00:51:37,665 --> 00:51:39,135
in the sympathetic nervous system, right?

926
00:51:39,195 --> 00:51:41,055
So we can't think of it
as like good and bad.

927
00:51:41,385 --> 00:51:44,505
We have to think about it as
what are you trying to achieve?

928
00:51:45,015 --> 00:51:46,845
And we.

929
00:51:48,045 --> 00:51:51,645
Homeostasis is where we spend,
where we hopefully spend a lot

930
00:51:51,645 --> 00:51:56,625
of time because that's, uh, the
fundamentally a resting state, right?

931
00:51:57,134 --> 00:52:03,194
Homeostasis is your, your biological
balance, where your heart rate is normal,

932
00:52:03,194 --> 00:52:09,495
your respiratory rate is normal, and
homeostasis is really, this is a key

933
00:52:09,495 --> 00:52:15,765
operative work term, self-regulation
of your biological balance.

934
00:52:16,305 --> 00:52:22,185
So when you come out of that with changing
circumstances, your ability to come back

935
00:52:22,185 --> 00:52:26,685
down to, to homeostasis, self-regulating.

936
00:52:27,045 --> 00:52:31,275
So it's up to us to optimize that system.

937
00:52:31,725 --> 00:52:36,255
So when we take our horse out
of homeostasis, we wanna show

938
00:52:36,255 --> 00:52:39,404
them that there's a way down
and it's highly rewarding.

939
00:52:40,140 --> 00:52:45,359
To come back down into that homeostatic
state and they'll be hunting for it.

940
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,240
So this is what we'll use.

941
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:51,870
We get high arousal for
a short amount of time.

942
00:52:52,319 --> 00:52:54,540
That's where we get the optimum attention.

943
00:52:54,569 --> 00:52:55,440
Acetylcholine.

944
00:52:55,589 --> 00:52:58,170
That's where we have the
right level of norepinephrine.

945
00:52:58,470 --> 00:52:58,710
Yeah.

946
00:52:58,980 --> 00:52:59,310
Right.

947
00:52:59,370 --> 00:53:00,330
And all horses are different.

948
00:53:00,330 --> 00:53:00,480
So you'd

949
00:53:00,825 --> 00:53:01,890
be like, kind of like an orange.

950
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,190
'cause like if you were to think of
homeostasis, homeostasis as green

951
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:07,440
and sympathetic or hyper arousal.

952
00:53:08,430 --> 00:53:09,930
As red, right?

953
00:53:09,930 --> 00:53:12,149
That it's kind of like this orange zone.

954
00:53:12,149 --> 00:53:17,100
They're gradients, and the more time
you spend in that middle gradient where

955
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:21,270
you kind of have a mix of hot water
and cold water, the more time you spend

956
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:28,859
there, the, it becomes harder to become
threatened because that window opens and

957
00:53:28,859 --> 00:53:30,779
you're used to swimming in those waters.

958
00:53:31,259 --> 00:53:37,169
For example, if I never take my horse
out of the arena, right then there.

959
00:53:37,545 --> 00:53:42,165
Sort of window of what they will
tolerate is very small, very narrow

960
00:53:42,165 --> 00:53:48,735
homeostasis is I'm in the arena, so
if I just come out one step, I may

961
00:53:48,735 --> 00:53:50,865
now become sympathetically aroused.

962
00:53:51,045 --> 00:53:52,215
So let's play with that.

963
00:53:52,365 --> 00:53:54,195
Let's go a little bit down the trail.

964
00:53:54,405 --> 00:53:54,975
Let see here.

965
00:53:54,975 --> 00:53:56,420
A little worked up.

966
00:53:56,715 --> 00:53:59,055
Let's make a couple circles
and maybe we'll come back.

967
00:53:59,790 --> 00:54:04,740
Because if you say it's too windy,
I can't do it with other horses, um,

968
00:54:05,610 --> 00:54:07,259
you know, the leaves are blowing.

969
00:54:07,319 --> 00:54:10,830
Whatever reason you start avoiding things.

970
00:54:11,250 --> 00:54:17,190
Then once you're exposed to those,
I mean, if you've never cantered and

971
00:54:17,190 --> 00:54:21,600
your horse is never cantered with
somebody on their back, and then once

972
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,460
that happens, if they don't have.

973
00:54:24,930 --> 00:54:29,610
Neuro exercises to help them become
comfortable with that and put that

974
00:54:29,610 --> 00:54:30,990
within their window of tolerance.

975
00:54:31,319 --> 00:54:36,299
Then the, the potential for coming
apart, it came out of nowhere.

976
00:54:36,569 --> 00:54:40,230
Well, if we put you in the deep
end and you've never swam in

977
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:41,490
the deep end, you'll panic.

978
00:54:41,490 --> 00:54:41,549
So.

979
00:54:42,885 --> 00:54:43,845
This actually.

980
00:54:43,845 --> 00:54:47,805
So neuroscience can actually explain
as we make the optimal window of

981
00:54:47,805 --> 00:54:52,785
learning wider because we offer more
opportunities to learning new things.

982
00:54:52,845 --> 00:54:57,405
Horses learn and they build a
pattern recognition that they

983
00:54:57,405 --> 00:55:00,855
become sympathetically aroused, but
they have just the right amount of

984
00:55:00,855 --> 00:55:03,585
norepinephrine and acetylcholine.

985
00:55:03,705 --> 00:55:05,985
Right, which is attention and focus.

986
00:55:06,015 --> 00:55:06,435
Yes.

987
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:11,670
Then they can come back down and
receive serotonin in homeostasis,

988
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:13,110
which is why we give them a rest.

989
00:55:13,110 --> 00:55:16,710
We ask, we challenge, and then we
come back down to a place of rest

990
00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:21,990
because serotonin is, is the emotional
balance chemical, and they get that.

991
00:55:22,445 --> 00:55:23,315
Homeostasis.

992
00:55:23,345 --> 00:55:23,645
Right.

993
00:55:23,915 --> 00:55:24,305
Got it.

994
00:55:24,665 --> 00:55:27,965
So this is how neuroscience
can explain that.

995
00:55:28,295 --> 00:55:32,705
When someone says, oh, they have a school
master, or they have a, you know, that

996
00:55:32,705 --> 00:55:36,695
really experienced ranch horse or what
I've experienced with my horses crossing

997
00:55:36,695 --> 00:55:41,285
the country, having all these different
challenges, they, they learn something

998
00:55:41,285 --> 00:55:42,995
new, but they come back to homeostasis.

999
00:55:42,995 --> 00:55:47,315
So they receive their serotonin and
then that window, that orange window.

1000
00:55:47,785 --> 00:55:49,405
Becomes bigger and bigger, wider

1001
00:55:49,405 --> 00:55:50,485
and wider and wider.

1002
00:55:50,485 --> 00:55:55,075
So their optimal learning
bracket increases over time.

1003
00:55:55,585 --> 00:56:00,385
The importance of letting them come
back, the homeostasis when they're

1004
00:56:00,385 --> 00:56:04,555
at that high level, uh, when they
have sympathetic arousal enough,

1005
00:56:04,645 --> 00:56:06,265
they're optimizing attention.

1006
00:56:06,625 --> 00:56:12,715
Acetylcholine, dopamine reward,
uh, norepinephrine arousal.

1007
00:56:14,190 --> 00:56:18,060
That's where they're focused
in on the information.

1008
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:18,330
Mm.

1009
00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:23,970
We need to come back to homeostasis
because it's in the homeostatic

1010
00:56:23,970 --> 00:56:29,010
state that it gets consolidated,
so they have to come back there.

1011
00:56:29,130 --> 00:56:30,630
That's their dwell time.

1012
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,860
That's we're leaving them alone
with no external distractions.

1013
00:56:35,130 --> 00:56:37,980
Even when you go over at
a boy and you slap on him.

1014
00:56:39,734 --> 00:56:43,605
The brain is having competing
signals coming in when it's

1015
00:56:43,605 --> 00:56:45,404
trying to consolidate information.

1016
00:56:45,825 --> 00:56:49,725
Basically, you wanna back away, give
your horse space, get that licking

1017
00:56:49,725 --> 00:56:54,645
and chewing, and we know that the
brain is replaying that information.

1018
00:56:54,645 --> 00:56:55,544
How do we know that?

1019
00:56:56,085 --> 00:57:02,055
Well, we take a human being and we put
'em in a functional MRI uh, tube, and,

1020
00:57:02,504 --> 00:57:05,475
and we are a functional MRI, by the way.

1021
00:57:06,375 --> 00:57:10,005
Is a neuroimaging device that
looks at the brain in real time.

1022
00:57:10,935 --> 00:57:18,075
So if we put somebody in an MRI
scanner and they do a task, maybe

1023
00:57:18,075 --> 00:57:21,734
it's a motor task, so they're using
their, let's say, if they're right

1024
00:57:21,734 --> 00:57:23,955
handed, they're like your horse.

1025
00:57:23,955 --> 00:57:26,025
It's, it's wired the same way.

1026
00:57:26,025 --> 00:57:27,225
They're using their right hand.

1027
00:57:27,225 --> 00:57:30,495
So their left motor
strip is, is lit up now.

1028
00:57:30,495 --> 00:57:32,234
They just lie after the task.

1029
00:57:33,045 --> 00:57:37,424
Still in that neuroimaging
device, but we're still imaging.

1030
00:57:38,384 --> 00:57:45,645
What we'll see is the hippocampus
will light up memory and replay that

1031
00:57:45,645 --> 00:57:49,725
same pattern of neuronal firing,
although the person's just laying flat.

1032
00:57:49,935 --> 00:57:50,024
Mm-hmm.

1033
00:57:50,444 --> 00:57:53,265
But the brain is still
replaying that whole pathway.

1034
00:57:54,105 --> 00:57:58,185
If I leave them alone even longer,
they start to associate with other

1035
00:57:58,185 --> 00:57:59,865
things that are related to that.

1036
00:57:59,895 --> 00:58:03,015
Oh, I've done something like
this before, or, yeah, this

1037
00:58:03,015 --> 00:58:04,455
reminds me of such and such.

1038
00:58:04,455 --> 00:58:09,645
Now we're creating a combining of
previous information into our network.

1039
00:58:09,735 --> 00:58:10,245
Wow.

1040
00:58:11,475 --> 00:58:13,140
But I can ruin all this.

1041
00:58:13,140 --> 00:58:15,825
I could walk over to that scanner
and say, how you doing in there?

1042
00:58:15,825 --> 00:58:18,105
And pat them on the leg and it goes blank.

1043
00:58:19,740 --> 00:58:25,500
So the idea is once you're exposed to
information, you need that reflection.

1044
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:27,090
You need that dwell time.

1045
00:58:27,450 --> 00:58:32,820
I mean, old time wa used to know that,
you know, you, you hear it called dwell

1046
00:58:32,820 --> 00:58:37,440
time, but you need that to consolidate
the information when then your horse

1047
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,660
starts blinking and licking and chewy.

1048
00:58:40,170 --> 00:58:42,600
That's why Martin says, let's
go let him soak on that.

1049
00:58:42,945 --> 00:58:43,725
Absolutely.

1050
00:58:43,965 --> 00:58:46,305
Old cowboys had terms for it, right?

1051
00:58:46,305 --> 00:58:49,605
They did, but they had developed
their understanding of the science

1052
00:58:49,605 --> 00:58:51,315
throughout, through just repetition.

1053
00:58:51,315 --> 00:58:53,805
Tons and thousands and
thousands of horse horses.

1054
00:58:53,805 --> 00:58:55,995
But I've, I've literally heard
Martin say, okay, let's let 'em

1055
00:58:55,995 --> 00:58:57,075
go soak on that for a minute.

1056
00:58:57,615 --> 00:58:58,755
And they leave them alone.

1057
00:58:58,755 --> 00:58:59,355
No stimulus.

1058
00:58:59,355 --> 00:59:00,315
We're not touching them.

1059
00:59:00,315 --> 00:59:03,195
They're not fussing over
them, they're not constrained.

1060
00:59:03,435 --> 00:59:07,035
Those horses just get to go literally
soak in all those chemicals.

1061
00:59:07,305 --> 00:59:12,134
You cannot the, if the hippocampus
replays something 20 times.

1062
00:59:13,110 --> 00:59:18,930
20 times faster and, and is replaying
the, the best that you can do at that.

1063
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,040
If you kept drilling, you could not
do it as well as the hippocampus

1064
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,140
because what'll happen is.