Carol Nesteikis: Autism and the Justice System

Welcome to Why Not Me the World? Podcast hosted by
Tony Mantor, broadcasting from Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. Join
us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will
make your laugh, some will make you cry. Real life
people who will inspire and show that you are not
alone in this world. Hopefully you gain more awareness, acceptance,
and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi,
I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to Why Not Me the World?
Humanity over Handcuffs the Silent Crisis special event. Joining us
today is Carol Mistakus, vice president and co founder of
D three, an organization devoted to supporting artistic individuals navigating
the complexities of the legal system. Her journey began with
her son's challenging experiences within the justice system, which exposed
the unique struggles faced by autistic individuals and their families.
These deeply personal encounters inspired her to advocate for systematic change,
provide resources, and offer guidance to others facing similar obstacles.
She's here to share how her experiences shaped her family's
path and fueled her commitment to transforming the legal landscape
for autistic individuals. It's a pleasure to have you here, Carol,
Could you tell us how these events sparked your journey
and led to your advocacy.
Ever since my son was born, probably there showed signs
that there was something not quite right. So when he
was two, I already started having him tested. So I
became an advocate because I had to make sure that
he got the best education that he could get in
the schools. That being said, I had to educate myself.
I had to educate myself and learn about all his rights.
I had to make sure he had the proper IEPs
for school, his educational plan. I had to make sure
I was at all the meetings. I made sure I
was at the schools observing and volunteering all the way through,
at least through grade school. Because high school it's a
little bit different. You're not able to be as involved
in there. But I as involved as I could be.
So that is how I became an advocate. First of all,
for developmental disabilities. My son has an intellectual disability. He
has a lot of autistic characteristics, but he functions as
about ten years old.
How old is he now?
He's thirty eight, So he's not going to function at
any higher level than that. You know, there are some
people on the spectrum that you know, are very intelligent,
and it's all has to do with behavioral process and
differences in the brain. And there's been a lot of
research done on that, so they know that there is
a difference in the brain of someone with autism who
someone who's neurotypical. So I did advocate for him all
the way through, even when he got a job that
had to go through you know, a human resources department,
and he had to have a job coach and a
job administrator. So even after he became an adult, I
advocated for him.
So he was able to work.
Then, you know, he worked and a small part time
job and did special Olympics and he did special worker
where he did activities with his peers. I thought, you know,
everything was okay, but there was a neighbor next store
who had some disabilities also he lived next store, and
he manipulated my son into doing something he shouldn't have done,
and police were involved.
How long ago was this that this happened.
That was in twenty twelve, so my son was twenty
five then and police became involved. Then we started our journey,
I should say nightmare, not journey in the systems for
the next year. I had a couple attorneys, but I
also had good supports. I had good support. I had
a retired assistant district attorney who was with us all
the way through, and another friend who was an attorney,
and we were supported by you know, family friends and
you know, coworkers and things like that. But in the end,
he he did have to take a plea deal, which
seems to be the case for just about all of
these kids. Even though you know, we submitted evaluations and
paperwork and documents and medical forums, they really didn't take
any of that. They realized it because they never even
asked my son a question at all, zero questions in court.
They never asked him anything. They never you know, everything
went through the attorneys. He didn't even speak at court,
he just stood up there.
So it's pretty obvious they didn't give the attention to
his autistic diagnosis that they probably should have. Did you
get any reasons for that?
Basically because well, prosecutors are there to win their cases
and nobody's really educated. Even trying to find an attorney
to you know, defend us. They were very sympathetic. We
had two attorneys. They were very sympathetic and they were
willing to make sure that you know, they took this
into consideration. But you know, the court's not educated, so
I don't really even know how much the judge knew
because the prosecutor had all the documents and everything, and
you know, you have to wonder does the judge even
know what's going on here, because it seems like the
prosecutors have all the power.
So once the verdict came down, what was the result
from that?
Well, we took actually, you know, in the very beginning
they had him charged with nineteen felony charges and by
the time we were done, we pled down to one
misdemeanor charge, which gave him two years on probation and
ten years on the registry.
So before that, you said he was in the Special Olympics. Yes,
what kind of competition did he do with that?
Oh, he did everything. He did bowling, swimming, he did powerlifting,
he did bachi ball. He pretty much involved himself in
everything that he could do because physically he was fine.
So you know, he played softball and lots lots of activities.
That's great that he enjoyed that. So now that he
had to take that plea deal. What happened then, I'm
sure that changed the whole landscape.
It changed his whole life. I mean, he was still
working the part time job, but all his activities stopped
because when I went to the Special Olympics and Special
Recreation Organization, they had told me that this is not
anything they haven't seen before, you know, these kids getting
caught up in the system. But their attorneys would not
allow him to participate in anymore because it was a liability.
All that stopped all his social activities, all his Special Olympics.
That's pretty sad to hear.
He lost his job soon after. They said he didn't
pick up some cigarettes in the parking lot, which seemed
really crazy, but I have a feeling they found out
about it. So he lost job too, And basically, you know,
we also had to He also had to move out
of our home, so we had to spend money and
buy a condo. And because he can't live on his own,
my husband moved out with him. So then I stayed
in my house and my husband and my son for
those two years he was on probation. They also put
an ankle bracelet on him. They stayed in the condo
which was close to the home, but it's still separated
our family. So it broke up the family. It caused
us a lot of financial harm because you know port
system going through the court, paying for your attorneys and such.
We had to use a lot of money that was
supposed to go for my son's future care.
Sure, I mean that sounds really tough. So what happened next?
Then we ended up selling the house after about five
years and I moved into the condo with my two dogs.
It was a one bedroom condo and we just moved
in and that was the price we had to pay
because that kindo was not near any schools or daycares
or anything like that. It was more of a senior area.
After this, I think you got more intense and advocacy correct.
I continued to fight. In twenty fifteen with another parent
from Virginia, Brian Calmore, we started Decrimminent. Well it was
el rid then, but we started advocating and started our
organization because we found out there are a lot of us.
There's a lot of us out there and still happening.
We founded our organization. That kept me busy and I
just kept working on. We did a post conviction petition
for my son to see if we could get that
back in court. That was denied, and then I just
started working on a pardon.
So how did you move forward with that.
On my own without an attorney? Because we really were,
you know, strapped for cash. Then we had to pay
for the initial attorneys, and then we had two more
attorneys for the post conviction petition, and they happen to
be two retired judges from that courthouse, and they still
couldn't win the case. So I worked on a pardon
on my own. Took me ten years?
How did that go? Working by yourself?
I did get my son a pardon and an expungement,
but I will tell you that the damage is done.
My son is not the same young man he was
before all this happened. He was social and you know,
he was working a job, he was contributing to society.
He sat home for ten years. Physically, you know, he
gained weight and he wasn't moving around, so that took
a toll on him physically. Mentally, he doesn't trust anybody anymore.
He doesn't trust anybody. He has frequent meltdowns. Now, he's
just not sociable like he used to be so it's
taken a toll on him. He's just I don't know
if he'll ever be the same person he was before.
Yeah, and not only that, but if it's taken a
toll on him, as taken on the family as well.
Absolutely absolutely, I will tell you that mentally I suffered
and my husband suffered too greatly. You know, it was difficult.
There was many, many, many nights of no sleeping and
anxiety attacks and just you know, just breakdowns because you
don't think that something like this could ever ever happen,
and you fight for your life to try and win.
And thank goodness he didn't have to go to prison,
because the horror stories that we hear about these individuals
with autism in the prisons is unbelievably sad.
Yes, I've spoke with several people that their sons or
daughters have ended up in the prison system and it's
not a pretty site at all. No, No, with everything
that you've been through now you're looking back at it,
is there anything that you see that now you might
have done a little differently that might have changed the outcome.
Well, now that I've learned what I've learned through our
orgization over the years. You know, there are psychologists out
there that are trained to evaluate. We did have an evaluation,
and my attorneys weren't. They really didn't want to use it.
I needed someone trained to present to the courts and
that are trained in autism and how autism works and
developmental disabilities as a whole. So I would have gotten
I would have definitely found someone who was trained, and
I probably I did get myself out there and I did,
you know, make sure my story was out there and
that I probably there was some press that wanted to
come in the courtroom and my attorneys said no, that
wouldn't be a good idea. I probably would have had
him in there. I just think my attorneys should have
been educated more. And if I could have, you know,
done something to educate the court, I would have done
that also.
So how do we get them educated? They go to
work every day, they do what they do. Like you said,
they're out there to win, but sometimes compassion and has
to come into the picture. They have to have a
little empathy towards the people they're prosecuting. And it's not
like the majority of autistic people are out there just
trying to figure out how they can be bad. Sometimes
they're the victims, So how do we get that across
to them so that they can better understand and then
with all of this together, it's a win win for everyone.
Yes, and right now they change the stats where it's
one and thirty one children born now, So they really
really have to do something. I think that, and they've
done it in some places. They need special courts or say,
maybe there's five judges who are willing to be trained
and five defense attorneys and prosecutors that are willing to
do that. And you know, they can combine it with
mental health courts because they do have that. But you know,
it's not something that is curable, so they have to
learn the anatomy of the brain and how all this
plays into effect. But if they were to do that,
if they were to just get a court where any
judge willing to educate themselves.
Yes, I agree, that would help tremendously. It totally amazes me.
My podcast this month and next month is having sixty
one straight episodes about autism, mental health, and the legal system.
My first guest this month was a judge in Las Vegas.
She runs a court system that diverts the kids out
of the legal system as much as possible. It's the
only one in the country that does this. It just
shocks me that if she can do it, no one
else is trying to do it either. It didn't start
out that way, but it just turned into one then another.
Now she's the only court system in Las Vegas and
the country that does this type of legal system for
autistic children. My issue is, if she can do it,
others around the country should be looking and saying, why
can't we do something like this?
Oh? Absolutely absolutely, And these diversion laws are really important.
I mean, Virginia has it and Maryland's trying to get it.
And if that bill were to spread through all the states,
you know, to divert these kids, these young adults before
they even get in the court system would save a
lot of grief and money millions. Oh yeah, so divert
them right there in the beginning.
Yes, absolutely. I have a judge coming on the latter
part of this month. He started a two hundred and
eighteen thousand squire foot facility. It covers a lot of
mental health issues along with health, dental, and many other things.
He found by diverting them to this. As a rule,
you don't see them the second time. It also saves
the taxpayers hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Yes, and you know money talks. Yeah, so that would
be important. If it's too bad, maybe they couldn't get
out there and promote it more. Yeah.
Unfortunately, we're in a situation where this country and the
judicial system for autistic people has lost control. It's sad
we have not been able to make things better, but
here we are twenty twenty five. Another sad thing I
heard the other day that the country's biggest health care
facility is the La County prison and that shouldn't.
Be no, no, Yeah, they're using the prisons just not
just to house is to house people.
So true. So if you would tell us a little
bit more about what you do with your charity in
trying to bring this to the attention to the people
that need to hear about.
Well, we can do some legislative work. As a nonprofit,
we can't do a lot. Our main focus is advocating
and giving these families resources so maybe they can get
their child out of the system. So we work with
psychologists and attorneys that are willing to educate themselves. I
would love to get the word out there more if
we were. We don't have a lot of funds right now.
I mean we're just becoming a nonprofit. That would be
huge where we could really get the word out and start,
you know, moving across the country a little bit better
if we had the funds for that. Because it's really
the public that we have to We have to show
them that, you know, it's not stranger danger for me,
it was someone I trusted next door, you know, and
that is typically always the case. You know, these kids
get manipulated and they're so trusting and they will trust anybody.
So I think that getting the public to understand that
they shouldn't be afraid of some you know, boogeyman coming
that it could be teachers and coaches and you know
people they know, so you know what they've tried to
tell the public. And I have to admit when my
children were younger and I wasn't in this situation. You know,
it's a scary thought you watch over your children. But
they're showing now that you know, all these registries with
restrictions on residents and things you can and can't do,
and they don't work, especially for the autistic person because
you know, it just ruins their life totally.
Yeah, Unfortunately, it is just so out of control. It's
kind of like when a kid does something bad, you
don't say anything. Thirty days later you start to reprimand
him for what he did. He doesn't understand it, he's
really confused about it. So to put that into our
court system, we've let it get so far out of
control that now you can't go back and slap them
on the wrist because it's just out of control. Somehow.
We have to get the judges, the lawyers, the das,
we have to get them educated about autism so that
way they can look at it different and then show
a little compassion and empathy towards the victims.
Yeah. Unfortunately, the legislators, you know, they do want to
get re elected, and so it's the public that they
listen to. And that's why I say it. You know,
the public has to start changing their mind. And there
are some people that have come out. The lady, the
Wedterling lady who started the registry way back, or propose
the registry way back, has changed sure mind on this.
She's become outspoken about it. But nobody's listening. Really, that's
the problem. And with our organization, when we try and
go to the legislatures and that and you talk about
you know, the sex word, you know, they shut that
down right away. So we try to really concentrate on,
you know, the individual the autism and why they're different
and why you know, they can be manipulated, and why
a lot of this is just a behavior, a manifestation
of their disability and there's no criminal intent involved.
Wow, exactly, I hear that comment so much.
That was pretty much. You know, when I went for
my pardon, I made sure that I had police chiefs
and like this, retired state's attorney and everything write letters
to say that. And that is I think how I
managed to get my pardon because the Prison Review Board
was really open into their letters of support. You know.
As far as the public.
Goes, Yeah, I think that's a huge issue. The public
just does not understand. I started this podcast less than
two years ago, and up until that point, I knew
absolutely nothing about autism. Now that I've learned more and
understand it more, I look at things completely different than
I used to. There's enough information coming out now so
that if people would actually dig into it a little bit,
they would find that autism is not the perception that
they once thought it.
Was right exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's a constant push and
a lot of other organizations they do help, They do
a lot to help. But getting into the criminal system,
that's a hard subject. It's a hard subject and that's
why our organization we get into it. I mean, we
in the mud with it and try and help these
people the best we can.
Yeah, that's a great thing that you're doing. So what
would you like to tell the listeners that you think
is very important that they need to know about what
you're doing.
I would say that educating yourself on the differences in
the brain, that's so important to learn because it's totally
different how the social aspect of individuals that are developmentally disabled,
how they function and you know, how their behaviors are
different from someone neurotypical. And I would say, you really
really have to go and educate yourself because once again,
when they get caught in the system, it's a manifestation
of these disabilities. It is not any intent that's meant
to harm anyone or you know, commit a crime, and
that's so unfortunate because we have to stop that.
Yeah, I absolutely agree well, this has been great, good conversation,
good information. I really appreciate you taking the time to
come on.
No, no problem, anytime.
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