First Wives Club with Caitlin Gill

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Speaker 1: On the beck Dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Toronte. My name Jamie Loveday, and we are here to talk about the representation of women in movies. That's what our podcast is about. Hey, Caitlin, what Jamie? In case you haven't gleaned it in the past three years, but I didn't give you a a reference point for what I need it. I just every once in a while, just a jolt of adrenaline to the system. The Bechdel test is never heard of it. I well, then start leaving your one star reviews now, just kidding, Please don't. Only m r as do that, and they're very good at it. Uh. The Bechtel test is a media metric invented by cartoonist Alison Actel, sometimes also called the Bechtel Wallace test, in which there has to be a scene in a piece of media where two female identifying characters with names talk to each other for about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue. Wow, I can't believe. I've never heard of this test before. I was holding in a burp, literally that whole sentence, and I feel like if you rewind fifteen seconds you'll hear it. You've been burping a lot recently. I've gone full Durst, I really have. I don't know what's going on. I'm just burping and telling lies. I can't stop. Well, I think that burp conversation passed the Becktel tests, so we're after a good start. Thank you. I mean I did mention er. I mean I I think of Robert Durst as kind of a genderless He's more of an idea than a man. I think. Um so it does pass. If we are saying that Robert Turst is an ideology, well he's sort of like a cloud of gas. I see him much like a burp. There you go, there you go, And that's why he's so susceptible to them. I'm glad we unpacked that. Um So, Yeah, this is the Bechdel cast. Uh. We are. We are covering a much requested today. We've been getting this request since we started. The damn cast took us about three years, but we we got there. We got there. Today we're covering the First Wives Club and here to join us in our conversation a hilarious comedian whose album called Major comes out on August sewod and you also may remember her from our Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid episode and our episode on the notebook. It's Caitlin Guilt. That's mel It's it's nice to be here. If you heard a strange sound in your audio, unless that's neatly clipped, it was my dog licking my nose a minute ago. Major. Margaret hot lives so Lin the titular dog from my album. Yes, and what a cuteie she really is. She's really thriving today. I saw do some tricks anyone. Well, not to brag. She's easy to distract with a treat and that that really begs compliance. It works. It just works. Tiny piece of meat and she'll do whatever I need, which is good because I forgot her leash. What a terrible dog owner. It's a key thing. You need to take your dog out of the house. Evidence about it though that I'm like, I guess this is just the dynamic. I do leave her rough Alice as much as I can, because she's honestly better. She's a strong independent woman. She is a strong independent woman. She knows what she wants and what she wants us to know where I am and if she's attached to a leash, she knows, so the off leash nous it makes her pull to attention. Is this podcast about my dog? Because unless you stop me now, it is about to be apologize my dog. My dog is a woman hater. Yes, the one time he was allowed in this podcast studio, he shoot through one of the audio cables and d platform the left once again. Oh my god, that is hilarious. I have to I really need to meet this guy. I only on through Instagram and I am he's he's a red deal. I'll get bit I'm in. Didn't he also ship and piss on the floor the last time he was here? He did ship and piss and truth or an audio cable and and but he did the day he was here, the day Alfred Molina was here, and he behaved until literally the second offered Mollina left and then he shipped and pissed again. Honestly, wasn't everybody shopping and pissing. Though as soon as alf from Lena left, it just everybody's body evacuated. He was just doing what we were all thinking. That's true. So the First Wives Club? What is your history with your relationship with the movie? I saw it in the theaters with my mom, who is herself a first wife. So it goes way back, goes way back. It's fun to revisit with fresh eyes. Certainly, Jamie, what about you, I'd never seen this movie. I feel like this movie kind of made like has become more popular again in the past even year or so. I remember that Ariana Grande did a bunch of First Wives Club like homage with her last album. There's like moments in her video where she and her too I think producers or they're singing on the track and they're all wearing the white check gets in the whole bit, and I don't know. I was excited to see it, and man, I really enjoyed it. What a romp? What a wrong? I'm a fan. It really was. And it starts off in such a dark place that you're like, where what and then it just becomes a romp so quickly. One of my favorite things in movies just period is what actor did the most with their one day on set, because there is no question that Stocker Channing was on that set uh day singular day, and with that day to rise to the occasion in the moment. You don't have the full month to shoot, you ain't hanging around with the ladies the whole time. You're in your out. I bet it was months apart from the other three ladies were doing the filming, had nothing to do, totally different team, like director on the phone from actually New York because this was in l A. It was just an incredible I love spotting those performances. I mean turned to scream if you really need the entry level understanding of the value of having a star on set one day, Drew Barry more twist with having her and it's sleeve Schreiber and scream three. I forget he doesn't scream too, But it's so good when you have someone brilliant on set for one day. What they turned out one of the best scenes of the movie. It really is the gravitas, the sadness the folks. She dies by suicide and that is the wild in sighting incident and perhaps confusing to say what ensues is a romp, but it's simply the truth. It is true. Yeah, alright, what's your history? Cabin. I hadn't seen this movie for the first time until about a year ago because it's one of those movies that I knew we had gotten a lot of request for and I figured we would do it some day, so I was like, maybe I'll just check it out early. You know, it's familiar out loud. Yeah, So I watched it that one time about a year ago, and it was like, this certainly is a romp, and uh, I don't. I don't know why I hadn't seen it before. I guess I ten when it came out, so you know, I wasn't necessarily the target demographic. But are you the child of a first wife? No? My mom is uh yeah, no, there's no easy I've realized as I asked that question, because I'll tell you whatever you want to know about my family and it's horrible, but I do realize that other people don't as often, so as that question tumbled out of my mouth. So tell me about your parental marital they are married, should they be open questions? What's up? Gloria? She listens to the podcast anyway my mom as I mean, I guess she she is a first wife. But also it was, I mean, she's a first wife, but there hasn't been a second one yet. But she's no longer a wife. That's a first wife. She's a first wife. She's a first wife. And uh, she's she's I would say, she's medium, bitter about it. Yeah, pretty healthy, It wasn't it was, she's not. I don't think she's in the club quite. We're in sour Orange territory, not to full women. No, yeah, yeah, they talk the friends. Yeah, So should I just dive into the recap and then we'll go from there. Let's do it alright. So we open in nineteen sixty nine. There are four best friends who are graduating from college. They are you a soundtrack here, like a little like. But I can't get my mouth guitar to work with a sixties sound. I can't, I can't. I don't have it my all along the watch Tower isn't isn't playing right now? I was about to come in with some Austin Powers music, but that's all sudden. It's really hard with your mouth. Does it turns out all right? So the friends are Cynthia, Annie, Alice, and Brenda, and then we cut to the nineties and that's the end of the beginning. Just like the Right this is this movie is basically Austin Powers basically. Yes. So we're now in the nineties and Cynthia is distraught and it's implied that she dies by suicide. Then we cut to Annie. That's Diane Keaton's character. She has been reconnecting with her husband Aaron, who she's separated from, which makes her daughter Chris disappointed because she hates her dad. Can relate personally see comments that they made five minutes ago. And Diane Keaton is really Diane Keaton. Actually where her name is Annie again? Annie Hall? Oh my god, Yeah, I'm like laid on thick white on. Yeah. I do think she has to be named either Annie or Diana or she won't turn around. She's like, won't her name was supposed to be. Couldn't get her engaged. She's brilliant, she's so good at she's really I do like to think of her as an inattentive cat like creature. You're just like she's like, oh, I'm not entirely sure she's from the same plane. She's one of those are this where I'm like, you are a vessel for an energy from far beyond. But it is the most nervous energy I've ever seen to try to communicate with with humans on the planet Earth. It's incredible. This is a great part for her, though. She screams like seven times and each one is perfect, and I feel like it starts early. I think screaming happens really early. It's too early, right, such a thing. Then we see Elise Goldie Hawn's character. She is an actress who is obsessed with trying to look young so that she can keep getting cast in Hollywood movies. Uh. And then we see Brenda bet Midler's character. She has a son who's about to have a bar mitzvah. She's neatly summarized as a Brenda. She's a Brenda. Yeah, she's a Brenda. And then they all find out about their friend Cynthia's suicide and the presumed motivation behind it, which was that Cynthia's ex husband this like successful Wall Street dude just remarried a younger woman. So Annie, Alice, and Brenda all reconnect at Cynthia's funeral. So then they all get lunch together, and Elice and Brenda talk about how both of their husbands left them for younger women, and then Annie is ill like, well, I'm still married, but we are separated. And then they keep hanging out. They're getting more and more drunk, and they're lamenting about how we're in full on boogie white lady unche We're on top shelf daytime drunk. This is it's very specific. It's no way it's past two pm. At the height of this scene. It does look like they're closing the restaurant, but it looks like they're closing the restaurant for lunch to dinner service. And it's very right out for that many glasses on the table, and they're just, you know, lamenting about how everyone sees them as being too old and stuff like that. So and Diane Keaton's mom keeps insulting her for this reason. Oh no spring Chicken, Diane. And that actress, I forget her name, but she's so good. She's like, oh eileenckt. Diane Keaton's mom is terrific from beginning to end. And she's one of those perfect old ladies whose lips are just lipstick, Like I'm not sure there's anything under theneath. It's a perfect flesh tone, but she's painted on this majestic mouth. She's incredible. She's every scene she steals it so and she's been trying to make some personal progress in therapy. Alice is in the middle of divorce proceedings from Victor Garber, and then she later finds out that she's being considered for a mother role in a movie. This is around the point where I realized that Goldie Hans character is basically just Jenna Moroney. When she freaks out about being about auditioning to be a mother, You're like, this character is genera Moroney toned down a little right. She used to be married to Victor Garber a k A our king are the hero of Titanic really which and this really made us to realize, as we just discussed that Victor Garber more often than not plays a villain, which is crazy because his best and most prominent role as being a little Sweetie Bias who who wanted there to be enough lifeboats but was over rule and then he because that happens, he sacrifices his hot doesn't make him abilla that he wasn't strong enough to get more lifeboats on the biggest boat like that. He was a complicit bastard and I'm glad he's dead, weak knead. Okay, anyway, so, um, you know, we're seeing all these women in their normal worlds. And we see Brenda and she confronts her ex husband in a store, being like, I need money, you suck morty and then his new wife Shelly. His new wife Shelley played by Sarah Jessica Parker shows up and then they they boughty shame each other for a while. Oh my gosh, I mean this movie has thanks all women under thirty five are completely brain dead. I think it's a fun fantasy. No, like I've I don't even I don't hate it. But it really is a rule with no exception. Yeah, and unless you're a lesbian lesbian, a college educated lesbian is the exception to the rule. Always, always, in every case. And then and his husband asks her to dinner and she assumes that it's because he's decided to recommit to their marriage, but actual kind of issues and over that thing about me poisoning his food. That's okay, she slipped that in there, and that was a weird throw a joke. It's perfect. You're like, it's got to come back, right, and that just doesn't well. She spends the whole time just being like his commitment issues, you know, his fear of of connection and you know, yeah, maybe he got over those, but honey, the fear that you were poisoning his food, he's not coming, He's not. That's on the other side. Maybe he's a prequel to the phantom thread, just sandom thread. Maybe that's he was into. The doesn't the most brilliant advertising after it was actually dangerous, it was sexy. She assumes we're going to get back together, but instead he knows is that he wants a divorce. And then Annie's therapist has sex with her, which is the meanest thing anyone can take. The rope. Yeah, I'm the hotel room. I'm sorry that's happy to you and talking over that, but I did want to point out that there's one room per robe, per hotel room, and he's wearing it. Do your meanest thing someone can do immediately before saying I've been cheating on you for three months is have sex with you and then just be like just one of one last taste and then like anyways, I will him for eating you out as implied, but I'm not happy about the circumstances birthday, Caitlin. Yeah, he don't you at least that, but I still think. Yeah. So she finds out that he's been cheating on her with her therapist, Dr. Leslie Rosen played by Marcia gay Harden because she walks in and it sounds like a wondering podcast. The gals get together again and they're, you know, all furious that their ex husbands have taken them for granted and never appreciated all they did for them. So the women form the First Wives Club, that's the name of the movie. Here's where it gets wild. Did I think going into this movie they would get office space? Did I think that they would make an LLC for the First Wives Club and a super clip party logo? Oh? I loved the full door like Nickelodeon style logo they there at the end. There was That was when I was like, Wow, that's a huge office they've got. And they hired in the Goldie Home just own. Yes, there is the privilege. The youth of privilege of this movie is wild. Uh. But then at the end, the husbands are making out checks to the First Wives Club, which means they've incorporated in some way, it's on their taxes. Wild, yes, very wild. So they formed this club and they come up with a plan to sabotage their ex husband's lives and relationships. So that's their new full time job. I love it and I love it. They're also just like I feel like, it's rare to find a movie quite this, like empoweringly petty. It's just like a full on fantasy, Like, yeah, we all wish we had limitless money for our various revenge projects. The money comes from the revenge. What a beautiful, built in in real pinedom energy going on. I expect for getting into it right, but oh yeah, we're getting We're getting a Goldie's plan. I think Goldie plan is my favorite plan. I love. I just love which. I love it. I love it. So first they ask Annie's daughter Chris, the sensible lesbian who's under three five, to get information resumably hard to tell with the lesbian um, to get information on Annie's ex husband Aaron, and then at least starts repossessing and selling all the stuff that she and her ex husband Bill Victor Garber acquired together as a married couple, much to his dismay. And then Brenda gets a tip that her ex husband, Morty, started his business by selling stolen goods. So they've all got these separate plans to seek revenge or as they keep calling it, justice on their ex husbands, and they need the stolen They need the books to prove that, uh, you know, Morty is a crook. So they need a way to get into his new condo or house or whatever. So they orchestrate this like interior decorating Cohn to get this high society lady Ganilla Goldberg played by Maggie Smith, perfect to the fourth generation scammer. She's great. She's trying to convince Sarah Jessica Parker's character to hire this guy Duarto Felice. He was an interior decorator that Brenda works for. They like do this whole heist thing, and they sneak in to get the documents Hi Jinks and Soothe there's like a scaffold. Oh my god. At two of my favorite bits of physical comedy just period ever. First, and definitely the more minor of the two is so the office that they're trying to get the papers from its upstairs which means that they've got to send a staircase and safety first. They all reach for the banister, but because it's an artecho home, the banister is not sturdily affixed to the staircase itself. It's hanging from wire from the ceiling, so it just goes everywhere, and you watch, like collectively a hundred and twenty years almost just tumble off the stairs. It is the best. It's all three of them are so like perfectly cats, and they're both they're all like really good with physical comedy. They're all screamers. I just love it. We are also in this bit of physical comedy that come right after the staircase is preceded by the best Diane Keaton scream in the movie, where she peeks over the edge of the building and then responds with her entire body, like her whole body makes nice like glasses flip off and then like come back down, and then Cony hans like, I can do this. I do all my own stunts. She's already over, she's already in, no problem, and they have to get down in the window washer thing, and every second of that. So it's so good. It's everything you need to happen. They fall right into the window of the people that they're trying to run from. Morty and Shelley and Bronson been shot. However, you say his name is just leading them around the apartment, whipping them around so they don't see them. And then in a floor below, of course, a couple is trying to make sweet lovely to be interrupted. The ladies huge fans. The call to at least you look great is that? I mean, they established it because he has fans. It at least gets told she looks great. I mean, when Chris gets pulled in it's in a lesbian bar. I'd love to put a put a button in that. But yeah, man, them stopping in front of the sex having couple was just terrific. You look great, but I can't hear. I can't hear you look great. And there the two of them to get the husband and the wife so good. Oh my god, it's so fun. But they have the documents they need now, so they have Yeah, they had the document saying Diane Katon on that old ass computer trying to hack where are the tax improom? I was like, damn, can you don't know how to use a computer. It also didn't look like a burning It looked like something they built in paint, and then just told her to click around in the paint menu like real careful. Meanwhile, Chris and his daughter is like, hey, mom, you should get back into the advertising business. So to raise money to start it, nous Elise sells Annie all the assets that she repossessed from Victor Garber and her marriage, and then Annie sells them at an auction, which Sarah Jessica Parker's character is at buying everything, well, buying the wrong thing, because Professor McGonagall is like, buy all the wrong things and spend all your like she's she's being a stranger and Professor McGonagall telling her what to do. On either side, I just wrote I just wrote down Lacy's name during that because I was like, she's a true scam goddess. Yes, connecting the dots Galaxy brand style. So the wheels are in motion. But Annie is trying to, like, you know, dig into Elise's ex husband's Victor Garber's kind of deal and passed but can't find anything bad on him, which upsets Elise, and she's drunk and she's saying some nasty things and Brenda fights back and shame things start to fall apart in the First Wives Club, but then they realize, hey, we shouldn't be fighting each other, we should be fighting the patriarchy, so they refocus their anger back towards their ex husband's and then Brenda extorts Morty, basically puts herself in control of his like electronics business, saying like, I'm going to take everything or I will wrat you out for your criminal activity. And then Annie takes the money that she earned from the auction and buys her ex husband's advertising agency out from under him. Um and then at Lice goes to Victor Garber, her ex husband, and says, hey, that new girlfriend of yours, that actress lady, she is sixteen, and he's like yeah, So then they're had to have been a better beat there there. But my favorite part of my favorite um like payoff of the three is Bet Middler full on kidnapping her husband and he she says, this is a kidnapping. He comes to he's in a meat locker and he's confronted with his tax crimes, and you're like, this is this is what I wanted, and this is the revenge I was seeking I do also love whenever Goldie Hahn is like, yeah, like your lawyer suggested, we liquefied the assets. Here's your half, and it's a fifty cents. She's sold all that stuff to Diane Keating's character for a dollar. Oh, it's so good. Yeah, and then it's just good. Okay. So they all have their ex husbands meet them at their official office of the First Wives Club and they're like, okay, we have you here, and now you have to pay, and they make their ex husbands fund a crisis center for women that they name after their friend Cynthia. And then they throw a big party, and the voiceover narration that Diane Keaton is giving she's talking about how Brendan Morty they're probably going to get back together, how at Lease is in a new hit stage play. She's dating an actor in the play, and that Aaron, her ex husband, was like, I'm ready to get back together, and then she tells him to drop dead. And then they after the party, they're all wearing white business suits and then they start to sing and dance, and then the dancing continues onto the street. It's it is inspired. I honestly do cherish that scene I never had context for like what that comes at the end of and you're just like, oh, it just fits perfect. We've got to take a quick break and then we'll come right back. Let's discuss. Oh my gosh, there's so much. I mean, I think a good jumping off point is just to say, right off the bat, uh that for all those movies and strengths, it is about upper class. This is like the movie. Yes, it's insane to the point where I'm I was curious about like the historical context of this movie, and I didn't do a deep dive on it. But this movie comes out which is a big moment for Hillary Clinton, and I feel like you can kind of feel it in this movie. Uh. This is pre Monica Lewinsky that all HiT's the fan, but I feel like the uh, there there are some Hillary Clinton vibes I felt throughout this movie. Uh, and not even in like a negative way, but like you do feel that that like white feminist vibe through this movie and also almost as like a predictor of of where things go from there a deep hatred of younger women permeate the movie. But just so, I mean, right after bed, we recognize this is a movie that comes from the most privileged place a woman come from. Indeed, yes, if I had just seen this now, I couldn't connect because I can't. I don't care about rich people or any of their problems. So sorry, if you're rich and you're listening, and there's a lot of media with great performances and brilliant characters, and the stakes to me are just also false because they're rich. And I think because I saw this early on, it helped, so I had a connection to it. I think actually, in a few ways, this movie gave me an unrealistic picture of the world because I just sort of accepted that, like, yeah, you know, you'll have one rich friend. One of your friends will Mary a banker. It's not weird to know someone famous, and like, you know, you'll be fine. Brenda's character is the one that you know, my family is the most like an apartment. God, when goldiehun steps into Brenda's apartment for the first time, so fucking good. I've never been to your apartment. It's so real. I love the way, in the condescending way that from rich people describe normal people, but the way they sert like that's exactly what that Brenda is there to wear bad skirts and like, you know, the end is that her ex is still rich, so she'll be fine. Yeah, And I think, you know, this was a simpler, more complicated time where this was like a bold picture for women. And I'm really glad that it looks stated in the ways that it does right because that just means that there's been progress, right, So there there is, Like I'm I'm glad this movie exists. I think it's definitely a step in the right direction that you know, misfires in some ways, uh and plenty of which we'll talk about, but like it is, this was like a huge surprise of a hit of a movie, which I think also just speaks to like how few movies are made for women, specifically like older women. There's a huge market for this ship. We've this had a thirty million dollar budget and made back one million dollars. It was a huge, huge, huge hit. And it's wild that there's not First Wives Club to Second Wives Club, but for something that grows so much and not get pulled back. Although I think I just spoke a remake into existence. My apologies, universe, let's all write it. Let's get it right on it. I would push gently back against the idea that this movie deeply hates younger women because all of these stars were younger stars, like, these aren't women who became famous at this is them reflecting back. You know, some of them were famous as teens. Some of them would have been that sixteen year old who might have sued a director like not you know what, you know what I'm saying, Uh yeah, I think it's looking backwards. I think it's a commentary on how we being the Hollywood or the media or people feel about older women. That total it's a reflection back, because there's no way to me that Goldie Hawn reflecting on being an aging actress. I don't think she hates her younger I don't think Bett hates her younger self. I do think there's a weird empty target for just those like the idea of young women who sleep with older married guy. It's just sort of this amorphous blob in the movie and they only take shape twice and they are both total idiot ditzes. That's what That's what I'm more criticizing. I don't think it has anything to do with the actresses or anything like that, but the way that the younger characters are written are to be vapid, absolutely stupid and will fall for anything. Is Shelly stupid or is she the smartest one in the More? She's definitely not the smartest one in the movie. She's I think, smarter than the most of the guys in the movie. She's smarter than Victor Garber Is. She's smarter than most of the ladies. I think she's got a number. I think she's reading the world, and I mean she's taking a cynical perspective from it. Her character is obviously in airhead. She says duh and snaps her gump, but I think in acts an act and she like the scene where she and more Doy have a fight and she just flips her hair, turns around and gets him to unzipped her dress, is like, wow, your tool belt is full and you know how to use how do you every tool? And it I mean compliments. Sure, I mean Shelly is a total idiot. Wait, no, Shelly's the Sarah Jessica Parker, who's the Elizabeth. But let's face who was canonically sixteen, So I guess we can't even really like I mean, she was that a lie? I think that that was like her birth certificate, but they were trying to make something up on him, right, Oh, I don't know. I feel like that when we watch I grew confused about Okay yeah. Yeah. To me, it's more of a main women were focusing on just resent that their former husbands have all left them for younger women, because you know, these are shitty men who value youth over anything else than a woman. So I just understand it's the writing misfires, and it's like kind of needlessly piling on other women to make the character younger characters over the top materialistic and stupid. It. I mean, in the nineties, sluts were still sluts, right, I mean, which this movie makes very There's a lot there would not have been an opportunity in that time to like make those fully fledged characters because they're man steelers and that's well yeah, and that's like such a stock character where it's like I was thinking back to like the new and also the new wife is a stock character, like the younger woman that like, I mean, I'm thinking marriage trap. Yeah, Meredith from the Parent Trap is like peak villainous new wife that is like trying to and it's It's like, I understand where that sound of step more that you call them by their whole first name caphones never came and there's never any even though that nickname is longer. But yeah, I mean there's a lot of things about this movie that is like because this is a feminist text, but it is like a very nineties feminism, a very white feminism text, because you know, there's still a whole lot of body shaming across the whole spectrum of like body shape and size, mental health and suicide are not really addressed responsibly. I would say there's there's quite a bit of slut shaming. The only women in this movie who are people of color, well, they're hardly I need to begin with. And if there are, they are in either service roles or extras in the background who don't get any lines or significance. I mean, pretty much the gamut of uh nineties go to thoughtless mistakes are definitely made. But one one moment, if we can, I mean, you just named basically all of our talking points, so I'm gonna choose one. The ways that bodies are treated in this movie. I think that there's some good moments and there's some some shitty moments. A good moment I thought was towards the end when they have this blowout, like ten minute long argument. It's like Bette Midler and Goldi Hunter especially great in this scene, and Goldie Hunt keeps on poking at Bette Midler about like not looking the way that she wants her to look and having like a body that isn't a size to like Hollywood body, and Bette Midler snaps at her and gets really angry and throws a golden globe, which and you don't usually get to see, like the person who is being talked down to by the quote unquote hottie get a chance to respond and respond with anger, and like you get that like cool Catharsis and like that. I thought, like I didn't expect that to happen because they are like subtly and unsubtly piling on to Bette Midler's appearance and the way she's styled in all this throughout the movie. And then but then she gets to throw a fucking golden globe about it, and it's like leaving the funk alone. And like I that I liked that that was cool. That's either right before or right after a Lae says to Brenda, what did you ever win a pie eating contest? So it's yeah, no wonder Brenda. That's when you throw a golden glove. And then then Goldie goes, that's old Cloe and it hits a picture of Goldie home. It does, and when Goldiehunk goes to clean it up, the picture is like a portrait of her laying and smoking and it's just Goldie hands standing there and get like the same standing pose with cigarette. It's so good, literally, such a perfect shot. One perfect shot. Twitter get right on that because it is too good. It's it's I I like, there were a lot of moments in that argument that I thought were like really cool and cathartic and not what you normally get to see. And also, in spite of the fact that this movie is coming from a big place of privilege, all these actresses are fifty and over when this movie comes out, which is extremely irregular, especially for a movie to be made like this and also to be this successful. And granted, I mean, they go to like some big names to make that happen, but they're all over fifty and they're presented for the most part as very sexually viable characters with agency, access to grind, etcetera. And and that is cool. You don't get that a lot. It is cool. I do think also that the conversation about bodies in this movie can't be pulled out of the context of the nineties in which it lives. Oh the nineties, like the world positive next time, like just the worst of the like bones being super fashionable time where I mean Sarah just Jessica Parker. It looks like it's just painful. It's funny. When Jason Mowanna had his like Dad Bob picture get made fun of recently and uh it was believe it was a female director came to his defense and was just like, actually having apps for a movie is like terribly unhealthy. Like what it actually takes is this like deprivation diet and it's not it's not good. And actors will ask if they have to do abs and like they should get paid more because it's horrible. And I feel like there's a conversation that didn't happen about what women had to do to be Sarah Jessica Parker in that movie, Like it's why I like, I think shared Sarah Jessica Parker is too smart to play a character that's stupid without knowing the kind of stupid she was was a little bit smart, Like there's a she's just not allowed to be anything but a puff of air. And I wonder what her first Wive Club movie would be if you got to see her later. You know, because you're trapped in whatever youth says you have to be in some ways, like flashing back to the sixties and sixty nine, graduating from college, you were away, and you know, Sarah Jessica Parker's character and her herself, we're just trying to be away in the fucking nineties. She's so small in this movie, and it gets commented on because that Midler's characters, so something like, oh, look at you. The bulimia has certainly paid off. So she's body shaming her for her tininess. And then Sara Jessica Parker comes right back with some like fat shame in comments directed that Midler's characters. So it's it's almost like women can't please anybody, including each other, too, right, I think, I genuinely think if this movie got rebooted, which I hope it doesn't please just pretty so uh, an original story. But if this movie was updated, I would be very surprised if the first wives and second wives didn't end up speaking to each other and finding common ground. And then I mean, it would be cooler if the second wives were brought in on it and they could just you know, be six deep when they when they you know, spike on the on the guys, because these guys get punished every way, but morally, that's that's the other moment where it's like so so wide privilege me that you're like, whoa, there's like the cretenza, some really nice sculptures, Like there's an argument for I'm pretty sure all three husbands to be or maybe not maybe not Diane Keaton's husband, but at least two of the husbands could be put in jail. But that is not even really a reference. Says like, well, there's no way that's going to happen. But one is a literal child molester, like one is a child molester, one is like has been like committing fraud and stealing, and they're like, well, we're just gonna you're just gonna have to pay me off for this. I mean, you're not going to go to jail, you're a wealthy white business owner. But to be fair, I think it is like wherever you are if you don't send your paycheck to prison. Like the funked up thing about the trajectory of this movie is that these women's fate is still tied all to their ex husband's. Uh and so Marty going to jail doesn't help Morty going to jail doesn't help Bette Midler, right, so yeah, she needs him around to write to her LLC. The first Wives Club that blows my mind is now I understand what you have to do to be have a check filled out to like something that isn't your name. Yes, it takes a lot of work. It had to have gotten someone. Yeah, I mean, come on, they all have accounts, They've got accountants. It's true. There's a movie Home Alone, A shortlist of other movies made me think that you live in big houses when you grow up, like you just like have money, you just like have upper middle class. There's all of the brat pack movie not yeah, the brat pack movies, like you just have stuff, you know, it's normal, and look at us now it's accurate. We all have totally so many medio apartments and cars kind of yeah, I don't have a car there there, yeah, there is. I mean I feel like in this just place, every like rom com or any genre adjacent is just like at cheapest, like upper middle class. But these women are low superpot I think they're they're like a Bette Middler's poor. But then you're like, no, she's not. They're all living in New York and she has like ah, like it's everyone's fine. She has money to pay for her the band that he wanted at her son's bar, Miss Fun. That was the only thing Morty was willing to pay for that. Yeah, a little guilt boy, that Sun character did. I put a lot of myself in him upon first viewing. Gosh, it is hard. The whole scene where it's like you two won't even talk to each other like been there, buddy, like just so like and at the end it is it is a cruelty. The last scene in that movie should be edited out for children of divorce. If you are like the Morty and they get back together dancing and their son is like watching from across the dance floor. That is so fucked up. Just like sitting next to my mom in the theater, just like, ain't gonna happen, kid there, and my mom doesn't sound like that she's the best there. I mean, I'm on board. Yeah. And to continue the body shaming talk, the other uh major besides kind of the body shaming it takes place towards Bett Midler is the body shaming it takes place towards Goldie Han, where again I feel like we get a very nineties treatment of like attitude towards plastic surgery, where Goldie Han's character for the most part is like fuck you, I'm doing you know, it takes takes the I think the even referenced Share because Share was like one of the only people who would admit to having plastic surgery and was like really into it and teld people to funk off Shares the best um. But Goldie Hans character is like she'll be dodgy about it and then she'll be like, Okay, so yes, I've had work done in blah blah blah, it's for my job blah blah blah because and you can't. I mean, it's it's like, especially for where her character's arc is, she is trying to remain relevant in a in a business that it kills older women. Uh, and so it makes sense and uh. Diane Keaton's character is like, oh, I don't know, you're getting stitched up in fun. You know, it's treated as very a key or like taboo or just like the way it's treated. And then her doctor is like, if I put any more collagen in your lips, you'll look like you like put your mouth on the pool drain. But really, I mean there are some body horror elements introduced with the plastic surgery. I don't really mind it when the doctor says it, because that's his job to advise on plastic surgery. But but the the way that the other first Wives treated, at least at first is like is literally I mean again, product of its time. That's how my mom would have talked about plastic surgery. That's exactly it. It's why I think that movie is self aware, Like it's having a conversation we have about plastic surgery, but it's having with the people who are experiencing it. We're not standing in the grocery store looking at a magazine and being like tisk tisk. We get that scene, but then we get the pushback the follow through. GOLDI Han gets to talk to you. She's not on the magazine cover. She's at the table, and she gets to tell you that she did this not because of your tisskiss at the grocery pile, but because you won't look at the magazine cover unless she does this, she says, and that middlers saying, you call me fat, but you ask for the whole world to be this crazy skinny. Like both of those are reflections of conversations we have and I see I saw it then, like none of it feels punching down to me, aside from the privileged whitness. I felt differently about the body shaming parts because I feel like all of these actresses are under the lens and have been for so long that it's active commentary across the board. I mean, I think the dudes do a really good job of letting the ladies have this movie. They're kind of just vessels, but every lady is sort of a comment on how Hollywood treats women, down to the women of color who are only in service roles. I think there's a self awareness in this film that's like there are anything credit for But I see what you're saying. But I do think the movie is aware of that, Like in nine they weren't going to make this movie without four white women who were married to white men. So and they weren't gonna make it without a beautiful star in Goldie Hans part. And they weren't going to make it without a huge name in Bette Midler's part. Like the same constraints that the movie talks about are applied to the movie. Like I mean, like Goldie Hans line where she's like, there are only three ages for women in Hollywood, Babe district attorney and driving misstays, yes, that's great. Yeah, and she's right, and she's right, and those rules still applied today. Yeah, the movie I think did the best it's could to flip over conventions. Asking it to do all of them is a lot in nine six, but maybe we can observe like what it did try to comment not we but like watching it again, I did feel like some of it is commentary and some of it is oversight. I think you're right they could have actors of color. I think they casted really white. I think I mean it's like, and we're not coming from a place of like this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. It's it's more of I think we're coming from a place of like this is present, is a commented upon or not? And I think with the body shaming, some of it is commented upon and some of it isn't. And it's for jokes. It's cheap. There's a lot of cheap jokes, and some of them are stronger than others, but the ones that are less strong certainly don't carry the whole social commentary angle that I feel is present some of it, Like right, I mean, I think that the Bette Miller stuff is great because there is a payoff and she gets to respond and the same the same thing, like you're saying, for the way that people are kind of snipping at Goldie Han for being plastic and having a lot of work done, and like she gets the opportunity to respond and and just like explain and we understand where she's coming from. And then there's a few examples where I feel like that it excuse cheap and it doesn't happen for sure. Yeah, I agree, Let's take another quick break and then we'll come right back for more discussion. And we're back what next. One thing that I thought was also like something that I hadn't really heard discussed in a movie before. Was like one of the commonalities of all four of these women and including Cynthia, is that their husbands became so successful because of the support or some other driving force of their wives. I think that is not something that ever really gets discussed and probably like one of the big strengths of this movie, where like it's uh stated that Cynthia's husband became this big successful guy because of her connections. Uh Annie was the one taking care of their daughter and taking care of everything at home and super providing for her husband while he was building his ad agency. Brenda was working the counter at Morty's stores and doing all the on the ground stuff. And Alice was the one who was originally gave her like a screen partner and and in all of his opportunities in Hollywood, and then he immediately became a dickhead and ditch. And she's like, I taught you everything you know about films. That's so cool. I I like, I love that they get the chance to like air their grievances about it because it's like, yeah, that's fucking horrible, and it happens all the time, all the time. Yeah, And it's and it's the movie we don't it's the characters we don't make movies about. Every movie is about a dude who did an amazing thing. And there's like a wife character way in the back. She's ever supportive or annoying exactly. And this is you know, pulling those wives, those characters out of other films and throwing them all together, which I love. Yeah, like form a club they do. There's such a dark, sad streak in the bet Midler storyline about her uncle. Carmine is this Italian dude with connections, things that fall off the back of trucks, access to meat lockers and such, and he, along with Brenda's father, organized stuff to fall off trucks for Morty's first stores so that they could get their start. And then Carmine is so mad at Morty. You know, what a shame. He's a dog. He treats you this way, What a shame, and then just tells her to look at the books and goes away. Carmine has been there the whole time she's been broke. Carmine would invest in a husband. Carmine won't invest in her. I didn't even think. And they don't even get It's not like Morty goes and carmines like I got you, babe, don't even worry about it. Your boy's taken care of, no problem. It's that they have to get Morty and it's still Morty gets the money Morety gives the money right, And that crazy how Carmine isn't a feminist icon was looking out for, but a fun character actor so good. I also love that we We've talked about it a little bit, but I love that big argument scene between everyone. Um, it's like you get you get to see so many I feel we are kind of in a phase of like things are all generally moving in a good direction. I feel like we are kind of stuck in this like film moment where there's a lot of merry sewish friendships and like I support you no matter what. Awesome and and here we get a lot of conflict and like they disagree with each other a lot in this huge argument where it makes sense that they would have grievances to air with each other after like twenty years of not seeing each other, and then this traumatic thing happens to everyone and then they start a weird small business and like, of course they're going to have to go back to sixty nine and like, you know, yell it out, and it's it's really cool to see them like calling each other out for all this different ship. And and then also and then follow that by Sad Montage, Yes, maybe it was going to happen to our weird small business. And then I love to forgiving a catastrophizing everything's off, the world is over everything. Yeah, she's falling apart, and then she calls her mom, which makes for like a really great arc with her and her mom where she's like things were bad and then you called me. Her mom was like really touched because previously, like Dan King was like my therapist said, you're controlling and she is. She is, Yeah, she super is and on such nice stationary. Her mom character is great. But yeah, I really liked that arc. And then going back to that argument scene. I love to see women's rage expressed in a movie because women aren't allowed to be angry. According to Society read friend of the show past guest Saya Shamali's book Rage Becomes Her about this very topic. But yeah, I just I love I love women's rage. I think it's hurt, like they listen to each other. They're angry, and they have to take distance, halt hungry, angry, lonely, tire, and don't make a decision or start a fight if you're any one of those four things. But they have their fight, they step away. And then it's Diane Keaton that takes convincing because her neuroses pushes her to think that everything's over. But the two women who were the maddest, who actually expressed their anger, resolved the conflict and then brought it back around a dian in this way that works, and Goldiehon getting sober is a little easily handled. She looks at a large bottle and she's like, it was like the bottom of like Carlo Rossi wine, which is what you look at sobers, the fully empty gallon of Carlo Rossi. That's the dark moment, but it is that should never be empty. You should buy it and it should live in your house. After your drink two glasses of it and be like, no, I'm not doing this to myself. But yeah, she just does get sober. She vacuums with a hangover one time and it's like, you know what, I'm putting it down too much. Yeah, they do glaze over that. But as far as like as realistic as a movie of the genre is ever going to get, for like showing like a group of friends being mad at each other, seeing like we never get to see like what friend breakups are like because there's still no societal rules for them other than just ghost in people. And and then yeah, like seeing it come back together and they takes some time and it's nice and you're like, oh, this is so I liked it. It seems like all the tension that it existed between them since the first scene was aired out and resolved and felt healthy, it does do the thing where like that's exactly the time in a movie structure. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know if anybody here's studied screenwriting, but if anybody has, um it doesn't ring about But it's it's all too rosy. And you've already seen seeds planted weed, seeds planted in the garden that are going to have to get pulled out, and it's satisfying to watch them grow because you see it right from the beginning. And they get in a fight right at the end of act too, and then they do and it's perfect because it just this movie is just a bunch of pretty little bows. Everything ties up real nice. It happens, you know, it's great. I think that scene pays off really really well. I really yeah, that was like one of my favorite It's in the performances to not just the lines. The tension is really there between them until they blow it all up, and then their friendship afterwards is sweeter and it's funny. The golden middler throwing the golden globe, so throwing a golden globe in response. It's it's incredible. I I really really enjoyed that scene. Another thing about the Ark with Annie and her mom. Um with Annie and her mom in the beginning, and he's like, what if I find somebody else? Like it's possible, because she's like, you know conte Diane Keaton, Yeah, contemplate um contempded whether or not to like try to make things work with her husband Aaron, And she's like, well, you know, I don't know, what if I find someone else, it's possible, And then her mom says, you're forty six, you have a better chance of being slaughtered by a psychopath. Same bad statistic from Sleepless in Seattle. Yeah, X that they sleep Seattle say that the statistic is incorrect. Um, yeah, another choice quote. And this is all presented as we know that the mom is being too much, and it's not presented as like what she's saying is correct. But she also says, you're married, you're happy, you have a daughter. You don't need self esteem, like Catherine, you need to see the therapist, right, you need to go see Marcia Gay Harden. By the way, there's like this really bizarre like male gaze shot when we first see Marsha Harden's character, where like the camera just like hovers on her like pelvis for a while. There's thigh shot and then it tilts up to her face. But it's like, okay, so there was a male cinematographer on this movie. Anyway. It's how you know from the first introduction of that psychiatrist that that's who her husband is sucking. Yeah, Like, if you're an adult watching that movie, it's like, oh, that's who they're fucking. You just know I mean the lesbian and now I mean and me Now is like, oh those two should fun. But it didn't happen that way now unfortunately not. I do hope again I'm giving this movie so much credit because there's two ways that goes. It's either like, get a lady with hot legs, like we need her to look hot so we believe a husband would sleep with her, or it's like a super intentional shot of like, let's really lead that this lady is fucking the husband that's also in therapy with her, and who knows. This movie is kind of a coin toss. That is, it's like you, it's sometimes you're just like this could be commentary or this could be oversight, Like, yes, it is definitely a mixed bag, and then I think it is. I think it is mixed. It's super proud of what it's making commentary on. Yeah, but it's hard. It's one years later. It's kind of hard to pick apart what which's intention is hard to identify sometimes. And then the final arc of like the Mom Annie storyline is Annie's mom at like the party, the celebratory party at the end, just saying like you're not think any younger or thinner, you know what? I think you need absolutely nothing, and then Nanny's like, ah, so that was great. It's cute. I also going back to the Marsia guy Harden therapist. For a second. It was one of those like I don't know the last time I felt this in a movie where you get to see the quote unquote like deceitful person. Well not even quote unquote from Marsha, guy Harden, you should not be fucking your client. Yeah, that's she was bad. But you see her get hit in the face before you know that, and then lady, you're like, oh, I guess I'm glad she got hit in the face earlier. Like it was weird. I was like, oh, I don't know the last time that, like the bad thing happened to the villain before you knew you were that they were the villain, and then you were like, well, good, I've tried that wild. I do feel like Diane Keaton was supposed to be the last to know. Yeah, we do. Like you got her personality too, is she's she's you know, put up a lot of walls and intentionally deluded her self and in some regards, but you know who doesn't do that in order to remain alive at time, I've convince saying Keaton doesn't know she's on set and just sort of follow her around, just like in both fingers. Yeah, just like Nicholas Cage ladies. How about that Ivana Trump, you're like nine nineties six honny, Okay, she's there as herself, delivering the Familius line, don't get mad, get everything, which she didn't get mad. She didn't get to do that. You can't because Trump's dad put it on a trust when he was three years old to earn interests as a busy Yeah, it was just nice to be reminded that we live in hell now watching this lovely movie from twenty two years. Ivana Trump was a first wife, but then also could have been a different kind of first late first lady, but didn't happen that way. But now out like broken facsimile of her. Yes, robots somehow the lower model also Glorious Steinham is there playing herself. What can you do? You know, there's a there's a lot of like little nineties cameos. Yes, the movie too, it's rich. Should we talk about Annie's daughter, Chris and the sort of overall representation of queerness. Let's talk about Chris. Basically, what I will say, I feel like in the nineties, it's like coming out had to be like a thing, like you know, you said, everybody down. It was like the whole movie, And like with Chris, she just sort of walks in and it's it's like so early. It's the first time you meet her and she's coming out to her mom, and she's just like, beat dups. I loved it, eating plants on the wreck and in the middle of like also being criticizing her mom, like she basically interrupts criticizing her mom for fucking her dad again to come out and then returns to what she was stopped thing about it. And I don't know if this was the actress's choice because it's in the lines a little bit for her dad, but like she did it on purpose. I love it. She's just like had a plan. I know, I have to come out to my parents. What's the best worst way I could do it to them? Let me wrap it in an extremely personal criticism. I love it. I thought that seemed was so like, especially for its time, so cool, and it's I'm curious at what you guys think. I also thought because it's the way Diane Keaton's character deals with it. At first, she's like, are you sure, She's like, what do you say? Lesbian? Right? But but I do feel like that is how some parents, especially older parents, like someone born in that is a pretty good outcome for like bafflement but acceptance, Like it seemed like, you know, as much as it would be amazing for you know, Diane Kitton to be like, that's amazing, I completely accept you. Yes, this is like that's ideal obviously, but I felt like supportive, realistic way of showing that thoughts. Yes. I love the scene where they show up at the gay bar. Yeah, so there's a lesbian bar. First of all, bigger, nicer than any lesbian bar I've ever been to, which are determinedly like dives. But this is a like, you know, dance club, like ladies dancing. Uh, it's very big, it's all ladies. Um. Goldie Hunt is so excited because she's never been in a gay bar. Uh, Bette Midler, it's just so matter of fact about it, could not give a ship. I love the way her character handles it. They're just all examples of ways to do it right. Be super excited, don't give a fuck, or if you're that cheesy and sensitive like Diane Keaton is just stopping a woman walking out the door, being like you're just incredible. I just loved it because that's more again, like this movie is like my parents, like my dad, that's my dad. That stops what you're doing there, I like a good way to go. Big thumbs up, congrat congratulations, big thumbs up. I think is what I'll stick with. Is that what you like to be called big thumbs up? Is that? Okay? Just the sweetest. I also really enjoy it. You're not incredible because you're a lesbian. You just are a lesbian. You could still be a piece of ship, living proof. Like it's fine, that's such apparent thing to do. It's so cute. Is they're they're just like I just I, which is they're just saying like I don't get it, but I'm signed it. Like it's that scene. Was I in the same vein of like Diane Kean being like I what what? What? Like that's yeah, that scene doesn't punch down at all because it's that to me, is about freedom. A woman just didn't say that like it. You know, there's a like you kids, what you're up to? It's still I understand that perspective. I think there's this whole generation that like you don't say that kind of thing out loud. It's not just that you don't come out. It's like, oh no, it isn't there an underground society where you're supposed to be there, Like, you know, what's running through her head is like all the lesbians she knew that got married to men like and lived and like you know, marriages or whatever with their long term friends on the side. But whatever's her picture of what lesbian freedom is. Isn't that lesbian bar not if you you know, even in nineteen sixty nine and a lady Gay was just like, I'm a proud lesbian who will marry a man to satisfy my family. And people were like, congrat yes, proud of you. That was like, you can't fight. It's so hard. When they're all at lunch on the Southern Dandy and I'm gonna marry a generously proportioned woman. Good, we've got plenty, and we need you lock this down. Well, when they're all at lunch after Cynthia's funeral, you know, and they're just like and Hee is like she's talking about her daughter and she's like, and you know, lesbians are great these days, Chris, It's just perfect. I mean, lesbians are great nowadays, She like has it takes a second before saying nowadays too. It is like the perfect like mom desperately trying to get it, not quite getting it line read I thought it was. It's also it's a lot to ask of your parents to be excitedly proud of your sexuality, of your family, of your love. Absolutely, but like just straight up raw dog fucking no, your parents don't have to wave a flag for that. It's totally okay. If they are a little shy about, like the actual sex part about your sexuality, probably for the best that they aren't overtly enthusiastic. I mean, parents are that way about straight to your parents. If you're telling your parents something about what you do while you're having sex, they are allowed to be like, look, okay, hang on, let me get over the part where you are having sex with anyone or thing, and then I'll process who you are having sex with, what look, do what you want with your life, and then it. Chris is like a continued presence throughout the movie. She she pops up here and there, she's participating in the first Wives Club and the like scheme on her dad, who she hates again, I want to just read the conversation at the very beginning between her and her mom where she's like, oh, you were with that man again, weren't you. Mother. I'm so disappointed. And dun King's like, I know, sweetie, but he is your father. And then she's like, yes, but he's using you and you shouldn't let him. And it's like, hell, yes, women hating their dad representation in movies can't get enough of it. It's it's super fun. And he was also accurate to the way a daughter hates her dad, which is still lots him, just knows that he's knows him, and it's not like, you know, she's still like in his office. She hasn't said he's never gonna she's never going to talk to him again. You know, that's her dad. But she's also not like she's got expectations for him. He hasn't met. And I appreciate that. That's a kind of love. It's a very daughterly kind of love for their dad, like to do better, do as good as I think you should do. And then and then the other thing about Chris that I liked because I feel like people are like queer people are out at as jokes in movies very often, especially of this era. And at the beginning she tells Diane Keaton, don't tell dad, I'm going to tell him when I want to. At the end she does, and it's such a funny moment, and she does it too like it's just yeah, like Chris is fun. I mean, she's just perfect. It's like she says something, don't tell daddy, I want to tell him when the time is right, like Father's Day or Christmas morning. My favorite joke of the whole movie. And then at the end she does I forget what the quote is, but she comes out to him and when he's really when he's when he's like already he's just been extorted, and she's like, btw, I helped extore you. Also, I'm gay Ce like it's amazing, It's yeah, I enjoyed it. Same worth noting that this is, you know, a woman's story, believe it or not. But it was directed by a man, screenplay by a man. It was based on a novel by a woman, Olivia Goldsmith Um. It was produced by Scott Ruten and then many other almost entirely men. I think there's maybe one woman producing this, but it is still largely men behind the camera, per usual. Baby, Why why why do that? When this is such a female driven story, Caitlin, Men like money, um, also women like money. But you know, that's a conversation for another day. Under do you get thirty million dollars to make a movie about four women, all of them over fifty unless the directors a dude in a woman direct I mean we still barely let a woman to act wonder Woman. True. And it is many years later, right, and I mean Katherine Bigela was directing movies his first Wives Club, Violence, Violence, They would someone would have already hanging upside down by cycle, right when when like waterboarded, whenever Diane Keaton hits her therapist, it would have been with a machette. It's Tarantino's first It's just feet, it's just first Westat. I also think it's worth noting that, you know, while this is a you know, a nineties feminist text, this is still a movie where the women are pretty much all consumed by the men in their lives, Like the men are motivating their choices there, you know, and it is to get revenge or justice against the men, but it's still like they're being motivated and riven by men. That's definitely true, But I also don't mind it for what this movie is. Like, this movie is a revenge fantasy for women who have been wronged by their husbands. And if that's the audience, like, it would be great to see them just start a small business, I guess. But like, but like, this is a revenge fantasy franchise and just and men, but I mean, like men get so many of those where they like, there's a ba jillion movies about a man seeking out revenge, usually because someone killed his wife wife, but I see slash most movies. But like, I mean First Wives Club, I agree that. I mean it is like the nineties version of they are tied to their men culturally at this time. I don't think that that is too far off from what would have been true for many women still, I mean, my my mom wants to get a divorce in but like financially couldn't get a divorce And it seems like um on a in a much on a much more privileged level. That's true to some extent for these women as well. And I just I mean, yeah, I like that it's a revenge fantasy because that's why people watch this movie. That's why people watch kill Bill is because it is cathartic and exciting and like, no one's going out and doing this in real life. It would be far too expensive, but it is. No one has the resources to have a building in Manhattan to turn into your revenge factory. But that's a really fun fantasy. I wonder if the novel was written in the eighties, because it's got to go go eighties energy. I think with all the wealth having a broken down building in Manhattan came out in ninety two. And the screenwriter of this movie, I guess it's worth mentioning while he is a man and we have to count that against him. Uh. He is also the writer of Steel Magnolias and as of Attraction. Um so he. I mean, we we have not covered either of those movies, but he seems to be commonly tapped to write movies about I cannot wait for your Steel Magnolia's Day. I'm surprised it's taking us just everybody gets juiced. Everybody has to drink juice. One thing I liked. Another thing I liked about this movie is I liked the scene where they're in the room full of Open Flames, which isn't really a movie about friendship between women if they're not sitting in a dangerous room full of candles at some point drinking wine and hashing it out. It reminds me of the scene and Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants where they go to like the place where their mom's met and like baby gymnastics, pregnant Lady gymnastics, uh like once a year. I believe that that is what it is called. But they have a similar scene and in it is they talk about Cynthia, who I think her press since in the narrative is very in and out, and sometimes it gets it's this movie gets so rompy that you forget why they're kind of what motivated them to do it, but then you occasionally come back to grounding it of I really, I mean, I thought that scene was very sweet where they were like revisiting memories and yes, is is Cynthia's letter kind of just like a random Chekhov's gun to keep the second act moving. Sure, absolutely no one's gonna argue it's not, but but I did. I I liked the the and that's where the um Leslie Gore Karaoke is introduced is in the I don't know. I thought that scene was very sweet and it was like a nice reminder in the middle of the movie of like, oh, yeah, this is why we're here. It's so nice to see, you know, women bonding, women having fun in a movie, women throwing golden globes at each other writing Yeah, and honestly that's my listening. Imagine being at a place in life where you can have a golden globe to throw. Incredible. But yeah, I think it is worth at least touching on the representation of mental health and suicidality in this movie. Yeah. I don't even quite know what to say about it, but it's it's definitely not well informed. Let's let's just say, I mean it's not well informed. I think that it is like, you know, employing a number of tropes um in order to fit the exact plot of this That is not responsible. It it implies that a single event in your life would would drive you to this. It doesn't even really address the mental health aspect of that at all. Uh. There's also in that weird letter later where she was like, maybe it wasn't my husband, perhaps it was loneliness, and you're like, Okay, there, I I don't even know if that's in what direction of helpful that is. Yeah, I think that it is like another example of like something that should ideally be a responsible mental health discussion being used as a plot point, right, Yeah, I don't think. And I also, uh, I don't think it was done with intention to harm anyone, but it just was kind of lazy writing. Sure, and it's not the worst example that we've seen of like mental health suicidality representation, but it certainly wasn't handled the best way that it could have been. No, but I mean I also did like, and I guess I want to know what you guys think about this too. I did like even though like the way they discuss it. Again, a lot of the ways they discuss things is flawed, but it's it's it's good major suffering for no reason. She's suffering because we're not talking to her about the act that our attention is pointed at each other and not at the dog. And it's it's my fault because I spoil her and this is the result. Don't spoil your dog, ignore them, ignore your dogs. But but they talk about at that lunch, like how their friend died by suicide, and yeah, like I forget which character is, but one says why do you think she did it? And then they discuss it, which it is not a laser focused perfect discussion of mental health, um, but it is. It is a discussion that realistically, these women would have had. I wish that there was kind of a more defining like this is where the movie stands on this issue, the way it takes very strong stands on other things. But again, the fact that there is a discussion at all, even if it is definitely flawed, I was surprised that that discussion was even had. And then again because this woman's death is used as a plot point pretty I mean like pretty transparently. The only response to why do you think she did it? Was Goldie Han basically starting to form the First Wives Club, where she's like, well, she probably gave him the best years of her life, sacrificed her youth, always put herself last to bolster his ego, his drive, his ambition, and just as her dignity was hanging by a thread, he just lobbed it off by running out with some preschooler I'm guessing. And at that point she's already talking about herself and the discussion of mental health has ended, right, Yeah, that preschooler being Heather lock Layer. So there's there's that incredible m um. Yeah, is there is there anything else that anyone would like to talk about? I love Gonna. I think this movie is not perfect and wonderful. It's it's perfectly flawed. I think for what it misses, its heart is pretty sweet and it's I guess if you saw it, I don't know if you are a divorced or or the child of divorced. This movie just hit certain notes that Like the other thing we haven't even brought up yet is that it's about divorce. Like, you know, I used to go to movies when I was a kid my parents, but when I was seven, and they were about families. So that's like not my picture. Or if it is about divorce, it's like some kind of drama. Like yeah, Mrs staff Fire is another one that's just like so emotionally rought. That's it's so hard. But yeah, so many Hollywood movies are about like the nuclear family unit, and at the nineties started to crack that open, and this movie did it in a way that was like fun and the trajectory of the characters leaving you know, is out, not back into their relationships, except for Bet and I think that her intention was set from the jump of the movie too. After like watching it, once you've seen it, it's like, Wow, they plant their seeds and they all just grow so neatly. Uh Like, but yeah, it's I think it's cool. It's about divorced. I think it's cool. It's a bunch of ladies that aren't. I think it's cool that their peak their peak performances. These are brilliant actors. The whole cast is perfect, and everybody just is having so much fun. And even watching it again with this lens of like hous this movie made. How does it feel to watch? What are these performances? Like? I still slip into like Goldie Hawn's character and Diane Keaton's character is just Diane Keaton, and I'm still like, oh Annie, it's just so fun. It's a fun watch. It's a romp. I really yeah, I really loved this movie. And it gets the same thing wrong that white feminism gets wrong. So yeah, it's very reflective of itself. It's time. Yeah, I can't take you back in time and make you be a divorce kid who sees it. But let me tell you it really hit U. Certain moms really laughed harder than other moms. There there's I had like a few quick last things. The way the movie ends of the Three First Wives, it is suggested that Bette Midler and her husband that scene that shall not be named where they are probably gonna get back together, they danced together. And when that happened, I was like, oh no, everyone's not getting back together, right, No, no, no, And then thankfully, mercifully, no one else gets back together. We find out that Goldie Hawn has a younger boyfriend, amazing, and that that great like Diane Keaton voiceover where she was like, my husband, you know, said he had changed and he wanted to come back and I told him to go to hell, and it was great. Yeah. I just I wish that Bette Miller had just taken the business. But you know what, fine one for three ain't bad. You need a morty too, because men, as much as I love to admit it, have feelings like and uh like, if men can't process what they're experiencing, then we're perpetually fucked. Like part of what we'd ask men to do is fully have their emotions. So if Morty did go through a midlife crisis, panicked, didn't know what to do with his life, you know who knows. You can apply whatever you want on to his character. Was he feeling pressure, was he feeling failure? Was he feeling inadequacy? He expressed it. He made mistakes and then he made a choice to walk back those mistakes. Like Shelly doesn't dump him, he like leaves her in the lamborgaining that he's willing to walk away from Men need to make those journeys too, and the other two men do not. They remain shitty characters. So I think it was cool to give whether or not that should have gotten back together with him. It can be an open question for whatever your own familial issues project onto that scene. You can apply your own filter. But I was really glad that one of the male characters had to come face to face with his mistakes. And then the trajectory is that he's going to be dealing with that that he left, that he's going to have to rebuild his home, and it's not just on Bette Midler. Like I don't know, I thought that was a cool art for old Moore. True, I always, I mean, I'm always saying that toxic masculinity. One of the things that it stems from is men not being able to feel, process express their emotion and such a huge pressure on them to not And in this movie, like there's pressure on Morty to not have any feelings. He's supposed to have this perfect plastic bride. Why isn't he happy with his money in this new young he got all the toys that he was supposed to have and he's not happy. Yeah, I don't know that's a necessary arc. If there aren't more Marty's Morty's, if they're all just the other two guys, then there's no point in ever trying, you know. Does that also mean that that scene at the Animal Sarah Jessica Parker in the Lamborghini Victor Garber like, yeah, they're fucking but then like that's that was his limb, that was his Lamborghi. Yes, they sold the Lamborghini a Christie's and fucking made Sarah Jessica Parker by that's a great detail. The last thing was what their end game is because with the first wives called, I'm like, okay, they have one job and then where does this business. Go from there and opening the women's shelter for in in Cynthia's name, while of very bougie white feminist because they started a women shelter in Manhattan, Um, which is helpful to women exactly like them, not to I mean, not to knock any women shelter that's opening. But it's like that's a very this movie's feminism version of opening a women's shelter with an opulent party with Avona Trump. It's like, I don't love it. I do love the intention, and I did love that that that the story at very least Um says, Okay, now that they've completed this task, you know they've gotten their revenge, and then they move on to helping other people. That's cool. I like that, Like it's you rarely see that at the end of a revenge movie. You see the revenge be gotten and then you're like whoo who but they but you see that they're starting the next chapter. And I appreciate that. One thing. I don't do they ever go after Cynthia's husband. No, they should, oh yeah, oh yeah, I wonder if they make him give money or something. I'm in the and I'm just reading I read a piece on the adaptation in the book they do. In the book they go after him for insider trading, but in the movie it's not. I mean, but I think that Cynthia has a significantly smaller presence in the movie than she does in the book. I wouldn't be surprised, you know. Also at the very end um, when Sara Jessic Parker's character is being hit on by Victor Garber, she says something to him like, oh, what's going on in there? A lot of battered women dancing around? Which is it? I guess a joke that probably didn't need to be in the movie, but it makes her look like makes I think it's gonna play of shitty character. You have to be shitty. I did. I did giggle at how insensitive that was of her, because it does make sense that did two shittiest people and then they would end up together. I don't know. I didn't dislike that. No, I find myself in a weird I am open to being wrong about this, or at least a subjectively wrong. I often I am fond of characters people hate because they're bad people, and I'm like, yeah, they're bad, They're not a good person, there's character, even if there are moves towards redemption. They are bad and they will remain bad. They've done nothing to tell you that they are good. I loved how much Three Billboards split the world of new nerdy movie watchers. I fell in the camp who loved it, and I was in a theater that laughed really hard at all the things that I thought were funny in that movie. And I love Sam Rockwell's character because he's a piece of ship and he's I love seeing this unrepented, like it's not even unrepentant, because he's willingly unaware. Like that's a bad person. We are supposed to not like him. And the fact that he doesn't get his come up and is on us, that's like a reflection of us. We don't do that to bad people. We let them thrive, they continue to flourish, they just go on on their rampage of vengeance. Like that's how that movie sets off. And I totally get, like, how disgusting that a cop gets to be this evil in a movie. I'm like, it's so real. That is honestly accurate. And if that character relented and gave you a little one trickle a tear, it's the cheapest ship. It's like, you know, there's it's there's better performances than others. They don't know if there's a straight line between say or Jessica Parker's performance in this movie and three billboards. Uh found it one converted book that didn't nobody thought would make money that was only four old ladies, and one converted play that nobody thought would make money that was pretty much just for old ladies to make the mad But uh, yeah, I love a character that's really good at being bad, And I would be disappointed if Shelley said anything less shitty. But it is shitty, Like what an awful thing to say? I love it? Yeah, I love it. Hey does this movie pass the back to test the chance? Yeah? It does? Yeah, truly does. Anna and her daughter Chris, Anna and her mom Anna Brenda Alice. I'll talk to each other in various combinations. Um, Chris never talks about anyone she's talking and only talks about her dad like she's totally plot motivated character. Yeah. I think it's interesting these ladies relationships with the men in their life and how much it affects their decision making, Like you were saying that that they are really tied to the men's decisions in their lives, and the movie is kind of about them discovering agency. Uh. But I love these characters. I think they are unique. There's time stamped in both sixty nine and in ninety six, and I like, I'm still very fond of them. I still am really fond of like Bette Midler's character reminding me of my mom and being in a movie. I'm still like tickled by Goldie Hawn being a movie star, who's a movie star in a movie talking about being a movie star and all the shitty things we do to movie stars. And Diane Keaton's perfect. She's just ridiculously perfect in this movie. So the three of them together, I just it's dynamite. Don't if you haven't seen First Wives Club, I'd be surprised. But if you haven't get it, it's yeah, it's it's more of a hoot than I remembered. I laughed harder than I remember. It's the jokes land more often than they don't, and when they don't, they sud in this way that like resonates how good the rest were or how far we've come. You know, yeah, and I mean and the end, the end is genuinely very affecting the dance. Oh man, if you're crying in that crying. I have to wear sunglasses concerts because people singing makes me cry. So I'm stuck from the jump, like I cry the first time they sing and they and then by the end, Yeah, it's the sweetest. If you don't want to watch The First Wives Club, fine, but do go on YouTube and watch the closing scene, which you can do, and it's worth it. Hey, let's write the movie on our nipple scales zero to five nipples based on its representation of women. M This one's a bit tricky because there's a lot that it does right. There's a lot that it does to the stage for more inclusive and intersectional feminist texts to come out later. I wonder what wouldn't have been made if that thirty million dollars movie hadn't made a hundred and eighty million dollars. I wonder what you could draw a straight line too? Sorry I did interrupt with that, was like, wow, I want that's genuine wonder, you know. So it's you know, a good a good stepping stone, but also okay, thank you, Thank you for your guys women helping other women beautiful. I felt like where the roof was, I have no help. I wanted to just like where I was at appreciate it. Um, you know, just wow, I'm coming up with this all by myself, but I think I'm going to give it three nippos. Incredible. But yeah, I mean, you know, as we've discussed, there's three women who are middle aged. We never get to see women like that have their own story in a movie. Um, they're seeking revenge on their on the shitty men in their lives. That is cool. Um, but yeah, it is a very like hyper privileged white feminism story that excludes a lot of women. I do like the way the Chris character and queerness is handled for the most part. That was I think she's my favorite character. So that said, I will give all three of my nipples to Chris Annie's daughter. I do three as well. Wow, incredible. I had no idea you were going to do that. I will, you will? You always go first, so you never you you never get to You're always setting the tone, and I'm like, well let's mixed things up. Um okay, So yeah, I I I really really really enjoyed this movie, and I think it is like it seems like like you're saying, Caitlin Um that it's financial success like that. Unfortunately, we you know, we live in a society, right, and so so you know, what is financially successful will inform what gets made in the future. And so a movie with older women, um, though they are very privileged older women, but that doing well does pave the way for a book club for another movie about rich that Diane Keaton is in. I almost got kicked out of that screen. I was with you. Oh yeah, I was. Michael and I were pretty drunk. I also took lots of cancel wine into that movie. It was it's like, what are you going to do for? You know? And then someone hushed me. I was like, are you fun? Are you kidding me? Are friendless? There? I'm like, go watch Grace and Frankie at your house if this is how you feel like, I came here to be annoying. But anyways, first off, Club, Yeah, I mean, I I think it does have a place in history for paving the way for more inclusive movies. Um. I appreciate the swings it takes at social commentaries. Some of them really hit, others of them definitely miss in the modern sense. But the amount of issues that this movie takes on, whether they address it successfully or not, is kind of staggering. I mean, like we're talking about body image, we're talking about mental health, we're talking about queerness, we're talking about patriarchy, we're talking about age, like we're talking about money. It's like there is there is so much that is even. I mean, just seeing a movie this big and successful even attempt that many things is pretty impressive. And the performances are so good and I cried. And Victor Garber is such a dick is awful. It's so good. The way he's smiling at the conference table when they're talking divorce. Gee, I was, although there was okay in his first scene. In his first scene, he does say babe, and I was like, like, I I felt that, um. Also at the child molestation reveal didn't work for me, But if that is such a nineties reveal, um yeah, and and I do I still feel kind of like I just don't give the writers of this movie enough credit to think that they were giving they were doing subtext on how they wrote the younger female characters but that's just I don't know. That's that's still something I got stuck on. But other than that, I mean, I think this is an amazing movie. I look forward to watching it again. I hope people watch it for years to come. Also, you know, divorce visibility that didn't happen very much. Three nips just equal the one to three Goldie Bet Diane nipped for one. I'm passing out a fourth nip, but it's because I saw it then, and I think being fifteen and having elements of the storyline be close to my life except for the money part. Uh. It it felt to me way better than the movies of its era at handling what it was taking on. And it did take on so much. And I watched it at a time when movies were still like real, like I was in them and felt them, and like the story washed over me, and I wasn't watching for shots and angles and like thinking about the screenwriter reading the credits at all. Uh. It was crazy to see that life on screen then, and it's fun to watch now. And I think it's crazy that a movie that starts with a dear friend's death and is focused on divorce is like in my catalog of fun movies to watch. It's cool to see life be normal and crazy and stupid in the midst of all the big changes like death and divorce, because life is those ways, and those women had to figure out how to be themselves, how to be wives, how to be ex wives, how to be friends, how to lose someone, how to grieve, and they all did it like a hot mess. Um. I appreciate that they got to be mess I just think that there were There's enough going on in night. I'm reaching back. I'm trying. I climbed in my time travel machine and in four nipples for nipples, an extra one for christ the lesbian, and then one for all the ladies. Awesome, oh man, Caitly so much. I have fun, And every time I get to grace this seat, I feel like I tortured you with book Cassidy and The Sunday Kid, a movie I love, and then you tortured me with the Notebook, and I yelled about it a lot. But it is nice to be back. I think every this is just such a great movie. Kevilly, my sweet lady, was very excited because she loves this movie, and Kelly loves movies like who's afraid of Virginia Woolf. She likes people yelling at each other after drinking and this movie is like full of it. So just all the hot reads. Lot's a little line, where can people follow you online? And what would you like to plug? Oh on the online? I am at robot Caitlin on Twitter, I am at Caitlin is Tall on Instagram, Caitlin with a sea and all proper vowel snow wise. Uh. And I'm very excited that I have an album coming out on August secod. It's called Major, named after my dog, who you might have heard whining earlier in this recording. Uh. She It's I'm just very proud of it. It's good for all ages. There ain't no dirty words on it, which is kind of silly and exciting. I made a clean album for financial gain. I will be honest with you on this podcast that it was a financially motivated choice. I'm proud of the material. I think it's very good and warm, and also I wanted to do that and uh, I didn't really think about this sweet part. But right after the recording, a comic who was in the audience, a Buddy High Ben Kalina was. It was like midnight and they nobody had noticed that it was clean, which I was very relieved by. But when I mentioned it to the buddies I was talking to, my friend Ben pulled out his phone and texted his sister at midnight, like, hey, there's an album coming out that his cousin can listen to. Is a thirteen year old cousin who loves stand up and like isn't afraid of pish it or um, but also doesn't necessarily want to listen to that in the car. Uh So it occurred to me, it clicked that, like I made something that you could listen to when I loved stand up the most, when I would listen to all the dirty stuff when nobody was looking. But like it felt really cool, Like again, reach back in and just offer four little nipples, two tiny little kids out there. Uh so that's really cool. So yeah, you can listen with anybody. Um. I mean we've got a lot of listeners who are moms. Yeah, with your kids. If your child is aware of the existence of lesbian relationships, then they are good to go. Um. But yeah, that's it was really fun to record, and I actually listened to it. I never thought i'd listen to and I do you listen to the podcast? Do you listen to yourselves? As recorded? I edit, so I have to. You have to of course, what with the editing? Yeah, make me sound brilliant. Um, I can't listen. It's so hard. I'm like, oh, I'm stupid. I think everyone sound great, so yeah, perfect, But I was pleased with it. I can report having listened that I think it's pretty good. I didn't expect to gush this must about it, but there you go. I'm proud of the cell. I hope you really like it and don't hesitate where it can. People will be able to find it and buy it all over the all the things. It will be on the Spotify, it'll be on Apple Music, um, and anywhere you listen to or buy things digitally will be able to find it. Thank you to my label, Blonde Medicine for making all of that possible. I'm willing to be a shill for any other corporation that will do me papers or pay me, so stump on board. You can also find us on all the places that you find stuff, including on social media, where you can follow us at Pecto cast We've got our Patreon a k A Matreon, which is five dollars a month and you get to bonus episodes every month. Coming up on the patreon is my birthday month, August, Yes, in which we will be doing Jennifer's Body and Freaky Friday, So look forward to those. We've got merch that you can buy at t public dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast, all, all the classics, feminist icon, queer icon, feminism is the law now, et cetera. I have a nipple scale button on my jacket. Oh my good news. Where are you? Yeah? Other than that, let's all let's all form a club, shall we. Let's make an LLC tonight. Okay, I'm calling my accountant. Does anybody know a good account No? Bye bye