The Lapsed Fan Special Interview: Evan Husney from Dark Side of the Ring

It's the Lapsed Fan Wrestling podcast with Jack and Carnassio and JP Sorrows. It's
the lapsed fans Get all my years wrestling, I've never seen anything like l
Well, it's the lapst fan man by the one the ringer to get about
the sorrow with the real King of swing. When the bell goes hanging to
kick like men prone in the corner, whets rash like state. Even Jerry
King could take off the crown, nodding his head like a d low brown
which you get low down, go even high up, flip you on your
head. But you know coo driving you speaking more knowledge and dragon spits fire,
give you more shocked than a head, tree tires and drop a more
truth than the conn of sniper. Less you would a coconut, Roddy Piper
check and JP like j y d drop the cupcakes and golden the green bar
means the best podcast. F start to close, fine of y'all. I've
been a FoST just happens this way. Sometimes we decide to you know,
fucking attack a subject until it's left lifeless, until it's bleeding out, until
all court files have been exhausted, and then the bat phone with over a
day's worth of material, by the way, like twenty seven or twenty hours
worth of subject matter on this one a topic. But who's counting? I'm
mine. As it regards Batch at the Beach, two thousand listeners at the
podcast know that we went hard at that subject last year and try to uncover
as many stones as we could. Of course, it's one chock full of
carnyism. I mean, to the max, this is like the most befuddling
carny ridden thing you could It's I mean, it's it's a literal clown car,
that's what it is. Lies just keep on fucking popping out of the
door well in consistency store when maybe telling the truth, but it's not like
we can tell. And we did our best to lay the fact pattern down,
and when we do that, I don't know. Just there's just just
a trend forming where the bat phone rings and suddenly our friend Evan Husny from
Dark Side of the Ring. It's like, hey, guys, can you
help me out here? This is fucking weird And Evan joins us now once
again here on TLF to talk about formulating the Dark Side of the Ring.
Bash at the Beach two thousand episode, which airs next week on Vice TV
in the United States. In Canada as well. I mean, I'm trying
to remember the international. It's on Crave in Canada and this Tuesday night for
both, yes, same time, Tuesday night, Eastern, ten pm Eastern.
That's when you get your bash trash a beach. Yep, there it
is, all right. So I'll ask the first question, why do you
want to do this show? This topic question? Well, I mean great
first question. Well, I mean it was kind of like, okay,
every season of Dark Side of the Ring, I feel like has its one
sort of event based episode. You know, maybe it's a story and not
you know about tragedy or you know, someone dying or enduring you know,
major death in this industry, it's it's kind of a lighter fair quote unquote
you know for each season where we kind of dive into one episode that just,
yeah, unpacks the interworkings of the backstage drama of wrestling, you know,
all the inner workings of these things and all the personalities and the egos
and everything at stake that goes to put on this spectacle, you know,
and it's it's something that I think us fans in the late nineties, you
know, caught a whiff of you know, with the Curtain Call and the
Montreal screw Job, and it got hooked ever since. You know that maybe
the things in the back are more interesting than the things that are you know,
in the ring. Right, So I think every season kind of has
one episode that exemplifies that. You know, the first season had the Screwjob,
the second season had the brawl for all, and season three had a
little bit higher stakes, but it had the you know, collision in North
Korea episode. And so I think with this one, it was kind of
looking at, you know, what, is there another one out there?
And I did recall that I think a couple of years ago Eric Bischoff had
maybe tweeted something about like what would a Bashel the Beach two thousand, dark
side of the Ring looked like, or he had commented of somebody saying it,
and that kind of stuck in my head. Is like, honestly,
as a fan, I was so checked out of WCW by that point that
I didn't even I wasn't, I had no I was not plugged in at
all when that was going on. I was that was my wrestling wilderness years
as soon as two thousand hit, I was out, you know, so
I didn't know too much about it myself, except for just that it was
this thing that had been widely debated. There was a lot of different viewpoints
on from different perspectives, a lot of lies, you know, a lot
of a lot of a lot of a lot of you know, truths,
various truths going on. So I thought it might be something fun to look
at, and and you know, at first, I have to admit that
I didn't see it as really a fit for our show. But I do
also think that, you know, our show doesn't always have to be doing
the same thing, you know, yeah, looking at it can be going
other places. It can be looking at like the Steroid Trials, you know,
when we did that episode, you know, you know, when you
helped us out with that. It's like, I think it can go different
places. It can go to her Babe rooms, it can go to XPW,
it can go to Nick Gauge, it can go other places. It
doesn't have to be in the same spot. So I figured, yeah,
let's let's try it. I will admit that it does on paper sort of
look like an April Fools joke episode of Dark Side of the Ring a little
bit, but you know, I definitely found myself fascinated because it is this
story where, you know, the intersection of truth and fiction is pretty subjective,
and yeah, everyone does have their own take on it, and you
know, leave it to professional wrestling, you know, for there to be
a JFK assassination type incident like this, you know, but it's this,
you know, what happened at Batch at the Beach two thousands. You know,
that is the thing that everybody debates, you know, for decades and
on end and at nauseum on Twitter, and so yeah, I found myself
going in thinking one thing, We'll sure, we'll get into this. I
kind of went into it, you know, with kind of looking at Vince
Russo as the villain, and came out of it not feeling that way.
So you know, I my own perspective kind of changed on it as we
were making it as well too. So yeah, it sounds a lot like
the posture you started in Boss when we embarked on this subject. I mean,
certainly you were familiar that there was some shenanigans around Bash at the Beach
two thousands, but yeah, I knew I knew I knew of the of
the of the laydown by Jared although I was on you know, I didn't
know it was it was fake. At the time. I thought it was
all legit. It turned out Jared didn't think so well. I didn't.
I didn't know what. Who knew? What? What do you? Dude?
What are you talking about? Brother? Who knew what? I knew
it? I know what I need to know, dude. Yeah, but
Terry, that's no, I don't know. Terry Balat is not into booking.
Dude. Let me ask you a question. Boss. You've seen a
screener of this. You know, we we've had the thanks thanks to Evan
the benefit here coming into this interview of having seen what the cut's gonna look
like, do you come away feeling one way or the other? As far
as who's closer to the truth, we have Eric Bischoff in the show,
We have Vince Rousseau, we have Jeff Jarrett. Really is the three key
narrative contributors. Um, do you feel any differently watching this treatment of it
versus you know when we talked about it, I I really I what what
what irritates me about? This is that, and this is and this is
the true thing about most of the wrestling uh kind of controversies like this is
that is that nobody you know, I wasn't at fault, this guy was
at fault. Well, no, I wasn't at fault. This guy was
at fault. No, I wasn't at fault. This guy was at fault.
Nobody's were a fault. And so that is what always that, that's
what it kind of irritates me because there's no there's no complete set of facts
as to who was at fault. And so that's what kind of bugs me
about it. And so that's how I feel. And m and Landstorm,
that's all I gotta say. Yeah, it's not it's not a very satisfactory
story. You know, it's um in terms of what you what you come
out of it, because it's because the waters are maybe even more muddied the
more you look into it, of course. Um, but I think that,
you know, And I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna be totally totally
honest, Like this episode broke people on our staff. That's that's that's like,
and that's the business. That's whole Cogen's WCW. If I can editorialize
you know, it's like it gets it becomes such a such a whirlwind of
he said, she said half truths. Everyone he says, this is true,
but it's not. But there are these court records, but those don't
count and they I mean, that's welcome to WW two thousand, Evan,
is all I can say. And well to your staff as well. Yeah,
exactly. I mean it was literally, you know, it is one
of the most challenging episodes to put together because you know, we always try
to make our shows accessible to non wrestling fans, especially non hardcore wrestling fans.
We want to make it so anybody can watch. You sit down not
oft to know anything going in and you have all the context. You have
the time and the place and the who, what, where, when why?
You have it all there. But if you have to do that plus
the exhaustive deep dive into all this is very challenging. And I think in
terms of trying to make this episode something that was successiful, it was really
tough and it really broke a lot of people. I mean, there are
a lot of people who just throw in the towel wow, and we had
to bring new people in. It was like, yeah, this is like
I'm not touching this, you know, and one more day. So it
was tough. It was really tough. And and I think that I don't
know if you guys want to get into I mean, we don't have to
explain what this is right to your audience. They know you do, but
I mean, if you feel it helps you make your point feel free,
all right? Well, I mean everybody knows, or maybe they don't,
you know, Bash at the Beach two thousand, it's a time when you
know, WCW is pretty much already a four lung conclusion, right in terms
of it's been way down in the ratings. The creative has been in the
gutter. And basically you have a lot of cooks in the kitchen. You
know, you have Vince Russo and you have Eric Bischoff working together on creative
ideas. And we're building up to Bash at the Beach and Jeff Jarrett is
the world champion and he's been on this kind of streak, you know,
kind of legend killing so to speak, retaining the title, and Russo is
trying to develop a way, which I do applaud. He's trying to develop
a way to get the belt off of Jeff eventually and put it on book
or t right, who's kind of the emerging star of the era. Correct
me if I'm wrong in any of this ship by the way, No,
no, you're right. It's just the thing is like that decision about Booker,
that enthusiasm about Booker happened about a fucking week before Bash at the Beach.
All of a sudden, there's this meeting where everybody agrees all along that
it should be Booker, and then there's that weird thunder before Bash at the
Beach where all of a sudden, Booker is in the spotlight. They're hardly
mentioning that Hogan is the one wrestling Jared on on Sunday, and they leave
that with that last television before the pay per view, thinking is a book
of te Beach Jared? I think in a tag match. We talked about
it when we covered it's Booker, Tegan will win this thing all of a
sudden, throwing Jeff Jarred around with three days to go. If you know,
as hard as it was to watch wc W beak tow week in two
thousand, even this sudden like anointing of Booker is the obvious guy, it's
easy to forget that that came out of absolutely nowhere. There was no indication
of that once he was gi bro for like months before that. That's true,
I mean, but it is something fresh. It's a new idea for
something that's had a lot of stale ones. And but you have Paul Cogan
in the mix, and there's a man basically there's a match. Well,
basically to my from my research, based on my research, you know,
Jeff, you know, Russo wanted to give Jeff one more big victory before
passing the title on which would be pinning Hogan one, two three, And
as you guys have probably chronicled more than anybody in this face and the planet,
that's a little easier said than done. Brother. You know, um
so well, I'm all about people over dude. I don't want you talking
about brother. I always put people over duty who need to be put over
now, Evid. I think this is a this is an unexpected opportunity for
you. One of the things, having talked to you over over the years
that I know is tough for you guys, is you just can't get Hulk
Hogan. You know, Hulk is a very hard get. It's never been
on the show he typically only does a WWE documentaries. Um, if you
were to, I think Hulk is with us on the line, if you
had, like, you know, one shot to ask him two questions about
Bashel of the Beach two thousand. You're an expert. I mean we've heard
you at the chair in front of some of the biggest names in the business
get some great stuff out of them. Would you ask the Hulk stories here
for you? Oh? Man? Um? Did you um? Did you
want Let's go on, let me let me rephrase this. Oh yeah,
take time. Um, Terry's just stroking the food in front of Why why
did you not want to put Jeff Jarrett over? Well? I mean,
well, dude, first of all, brother, let's tell all this thing
back in dude for a moment. Brother, Jeff Jarrett, Dude, I
don't what about Jeff Jarrett. Brother, I mean we're talking about a guy,
Dude. I don't know if he was ready. Brother, I don't
know if it was his time. Dude. You know, because I'm thinking
about brother, I'm trying to think about the long game. Dude. I
want to know. Sure, Okay, I put over Jeff Jarrett Barrett Bash
the Beach. Brother, Well, what happens next, dude, and what
happens after that? And what happens after that? See, no one's being
clear with me, brother. And all I'm thinking about, dude, is
how do I get the business back on track? Brother? I'm trying to
think about how we can get this thing back in because I'm tired of play
and hide the ball. Brother. I'm tired of playing you know, eat
the cannoli, Dude. I want to get things back on track and get
to where we're supposed to be, brother, Because let me put it to
you, playing a simple brother, I'm you know, I'm a Jeff Jareded
fan, Dude. I'm a big fan of Jeff Jared. I think Jared's
got a lot to contribute. Brother. But what I'm trying to say is,
dude, is it his time? Brother? Is is he ready to
take the reins of whole comania? Dude? Or is he just trying to
roll me up from behind? Because I gotta be concerned, brother, about
my backside? Dude, Like, what are you were you coming at?
Were this thing? Brother? Well here's my follow up? Then, So
the idea then to blur the lines where you you were ineffectively winning the title
you know by Jeff mean effect What do you mean ineffectively? Dude? Are
you talking about brother? Ineffective? Brother? What are you? Are you
what? That was a slip? Excuse me? But you dropping? Or
you you winning the title at Basche of the Beach, Okay, because Jeff
is going to throw the match to you? What do you think? What
were you expecting the crowd's reaction to be? Well, you know, brother,
I mean if we kind of let our feelings be on crowd reactions,
dude, I mean, we'd never get to that next level. Brother.
I mean, we're talking about taking one simple step, dude, and we
can't always have the fans, brother, kind of like being at our side.
So what are we talking about? You know, we're talking about Hulk
Hogan saying Hulk Comania is coming back. Brother. I just beat Jeff Jared
for the world title. You know what, Brother, I was a fan
of that, Dude. I thought it was a right move for business.
Brother, And I think despite the way that it was played, Dude,
I think the fans were behind it one hundred ten percent. Brother. I
think what WCW did and I got a fact on this because you know what,
Eric Bischoff came back with me, brother, and he conferred this to
me, dude, as did Brian Nobbs. Brother Nobbs also confirmed this brother
because he was in the truck. Dude. They they added sound brother of
people booing. Now again, here's TOCW, dude trying to roll me up
from behind. Brother, So I say, fuck WCW. Okay, one
last question for you, and that is, um, when you auditioned for
Metallica, which songs did you submit on your demo tape? Well, dude,
you know, I felt I only really had to submit one, and
that was you know, one what I gave them? Once? What?
What? Who's I gave them? You know? Uh? The Holster?
What? Brother? Who did you need thirty more seconds to google of Metallica
song well One and Justice for All? Brother? Yeah, I just loved
the idea of Paul Cogan playing one and submitting one as a as a song.
Okay, I I didn't want to be in Metallica, brother, I
said, you know what I mean. I appreciate you know where they're coming
from, but you know, I've just thought enough money for me, dude.
Yeah, well, you certainly found a way to cash in at WCW.
So perhaps that was well advised. Evan, give our listeners if you
could a little history there on Unhold, because you've done episodes, you know,
including the Steroid Trial one that that obviously you know, sort of begged
for his participation. What's it been like trying to get him on the show
over the years. I think the very first time we tried was for the
Macho Man episode in season one. Oh yeah, yeah, uh, And
I mean we were we were we were nobody, We had no street cred
in the wrestling world, so nobody knew who we were. No one could
vouch for us, and it was pretty much a no I think based on
that, um, you know, and he was I think he was also
a little ticked off that we had Linda Hogan on the episode as well after
it aired, probably didn't help us. And then UM and then UM season
two. I tried, but like I knew it was going to be uphill,
but I really wanted to get him for the Doctor D David Schultz episode.
Yeah, because there's a lot of um, you know, sour grapes,
bad feelings. You know, I've probably one sided from from Doctor D.
But I thought, you know, because those guys came up together and
they drew so much business in the away, and you know, they were
so close for so long, and then of course after the whole you know
John Stossel's situation, you know, they didn't talk and things like that,
and Doctor D feels pretty slighted about that though. It'd be interesting just to
get to the heart of their sort of relationship. Um, And I think
that was pretty much it. I mean, it was it was. It
was that. And then I think I think I got kind of stone walled
trying to get to him for Steroid Trials, because I believe leave that the
Steroid Trials was a big part or was going to be a part of his
biopic and somehow that would be a conflict of interest. Oh I don't interesting.
Yeah, so yeah, and that's my memory could be a little wonky
on that, but that was when I remember, So we've never had any
good luck. We've always wanted him, of course, and obviously, you
know, he does play a big part in this story because you know,
as soon as Hogan comes into the picture with this storyline, um, it
becomes very complicated, and he doesn't want to you know, he doesn't want
to clean, he doesn't want to lose clean to Jeff Jarrett, he wants
to retain the title, and the Eric Bischoff basically have plans for down the
line that at Halloween havoc several months later, you know, when Hogan is
left with the belt from Bash at the Beach after Jeff Jarrett lies down for
him and he's supposed to act really you know, mad and character and that's
the thing I should just say too before we get too into the rabbit hole
with this. That was the part that was so hard, Like when we're
when we're hiring editors and other st Half members who didn't grow up in any
of this shit, and they're trying to also decide what is real and what
is of course, it's very very very very challenging on top of everybody you
know, not being in totally honest with the story as well too, so
it's very difficult. But basically what happened in the ring at Bash of the
Beach was, you know, Jeff Jarrett through the match to hull Cogan.
Hul Cogan acts like he's really upset, kind of blurring the lines between everything
that's happening in the back at WCW at the time, the disorganization they're kind
of turning that into the into the work. And then so Hogan's supposed to
walk off and leave the building, you know, huffing and puffing, and
then they're going to vacate the title, and then Hogan doesn't return to WCW.
That's supposed to be in the storyline. And then several months later down
the road at Halloween Havoc, they're supposed to hold a tournament for a new
champion, but then Hogan's going to show up with the belt and say I
got the real belt and he'll fight whoever the winner is of that tournament to
determine the new champion or whatever. That was the idea. I sort of
think now finally getting to my point, is I sort of think that what
you have with this story is probably more than anything. Yeah, there's some
people who aren't telling truths, maybe here and there, but I do think
it's largely a communication issue where I think that a lot of people were either
taking liberties with the things that they said face to face with one another,
or they didn't pitch the full idea or give the full context everything, and
so everyone's kind of not aware of each other's intentions, and I think that
kind of just spiraled into a rabbit hole of like miscommunication because I don't believe
with this story and is like like I like, for example, one of
the main point of contentions with this story is that it devolved into a lawsuit.
You know, Vince Russo after this happened, after Hogan leaves the building,
he cuts this promo off script, trashing Hogan, trashing everything, blurring
the lines even further, calling him bald, you know, and all these
things piece of shit too, as I understands this ship a piece of shit
of course, and it devolves into a lawsuit. Right, Who's ever said
I'm brother, No one's I've never admitted to being bald, dude. He
hasn't confirmed it, So what the fuck? You just running with speculation?
But I may have ben bald dude, but I am not currently bald,
brother, and I am not a bald abuser brother. You're not currently bald.
What is this Halloween havoc ninety six? I gotta say, I gotta
say Lance Landstorm is he's on that line. He's surprisingly key, yeah,
and he's like Cogan got upset because he said he was bald, but uh
is bald? So you know, like it's so funny, and it's of
course the fact that Lance is bald too even better, Like it's a great
moment um. Anyway, I just you know this, he has to explain
all this context, right, it's tough. So, but basically Russo cutting
the promo. I think probably an example of what I'm trying to say is
when they all sat down and discussed the idea, you know, Russo,
Hogan, Bischoff. I have a feeling that he probably said, oh,
I'm gonna cut this like scathing promo, you know, or whatever, and
that's it, right. No one got into specifics, nobody went into detail.
That's like probably all he said. And then of course, you know,
then it becomes a problem for somebody because it's, well, what's scathing?
You know, it's more than scathing, right, So I think it's
like that's kind of an example of what we're talking about across the board.
Because another thing that's weird is that Bischoff claims that he never knew about the
match, but that was going to happen later that night with book or t
is because when we first started talking about how to present this thing, a
key lynchpin was like Russo does claim that he told Hult that Booker was going
to come out later that night and win the title, and the Hulk was
cool with that, and we went back we were like, did Bischoff deny
that or did he had even address that? You know, was that emphasized
in the interview and then you had to go back to Eric right on that
point. Yeah, because that's a big deal, because that was one thing
that confused me for so long, was because then it's like the whole bashet
of the Beach scandal then just becomes the Hogan Bald thing more than anything,
Right, but if but if Yeah, now I've just made an entire hour
of television about about that. But but but or is it the fact that
Russo wants Booker T to be the champion no matter what, and he's just
gonna play Kate Hogan with this. He's just gonna play Kate Hogan to get
what he wants and the end game is to have Booker T be the champion
that night. And he didn't tell anybody that plan really, or at least
didn't tell Hogan and bish Off that plan that he was going to swerve the
entire show halfway through now I think it's probably again somewhere along the line with
the scathing promo idea that maybe they talked about that the plan was maybe for
Booker t to be an interim chan in or maybe that he would be a
champion for the for the tournament or something, and then of course, like
you know, it exactly something that just gives him the plausibility to say,
oh, we talked about it, but like we didn't understand like the full
extent, like oh tonight and like everything that Hulk Hogan just did is going
to be nullified, you know, by this night. So I think it
is largely when you take everything away, when you strip all the bullshit away,
I think it largely is, you know, people having their own agendas.
Of course, Hogan's got his, we know Russo's got his, and
they're just kind of giving each other like the bare minimum in terms of communication,
uh, to kind of cover quasi cover their own ass, and then
it just plays out and then people like what the fuck? You know,
Yeah, I think I think that's what it really is, you know,
and um, but it is because yeah, because I could totally see Vince
Russo, yeah, playcating Hogan just to get what he wants, you know,
just to Okay, you're gonna win the you know, just me talking
here, But I honestly can see him saying after the fact, the white
lie that that I told Hulk that Booker was going over that night and then
that he didn't tell him. That sure was a little small, you know,
because I think what what people don't appreciate about situations like this in wrestling
is it's not a series of sweeping, big lies. It's like two small,
tactical lies within a hundred half truth, right and right, Boss,
you find yourself like turning on these questions, like because Evan was talking,
I never even thought about this, Like did Hulk really leave the building that
night thinking the main event was going to be the Sting Vampiro graveyard match that
came after him? Like did he really think that? What do you think
the main event was going to be? That? That's so true, that's
such a that And you know, you you bring him such a great point
about the idea of communication and agendas and how that's probably a big, big
part of it is that you know, they may be you know, anybody
can say something and the person on the receiving end can take it a different
way, and I mean, you know, bring it personal. This is
a thing that happens with like me and my wife all the time where she
says something and I'm like, oh, okay, but like I didn't understand
what she actually meant, and I didn't know that I didn't understand it.
But that's you know, it was a totally different thing, and that's something.
And then to add that, to have that kind of a miscommunication or
something if that is, you know, potentially, and then to have the
egos on top the egos of these guys on top it just that that creates
a very very toxic and self destructive situation where you aren't going to get to
the bottom of it because because they again they're in a situation now where they
both think that everyone thinks they're right because they said this exactly exactly. And
that's why you that's why you don't have like a singular truth on the whole
thing, right. And the other little variable we're not even talking about here,
which is Jeff Jarrett. You know. So, so one of the
things is like that you have to understand first is that there was a meeting
allegedly between Russo bishof Hogan laying out what the plans were for that match between
Hogan and and Jarrett and so. But somewhere in that meeting it's clear that
Hogan doesn't want to drop the doesn't want to lose to Jarrett Clean and so
um so. But in Russo's mind, He's got this plan in order to
eventually get the belt on book or T But in order to pull that off,
he has to sort of work quasi work Jeff Jarrett when he gets out
of that meeting and has to go up to him and tell him, you
know, well, you know, Hogan doesn't want to do this, and
you know he doesn't want to do that, and so this is what it's
going to be. And so it is interesting and that's kind of more further
evidence to me about like Russo's kind of um business style. You know,
it's it's it's it's it's a very kind of producer trick, you know,
where you kind of have to softly manipulate people in order to get what you
need done. And you know, it's it's that old you know, Adam.
It's like uh, you know, you know, beg for forgiveness,
don't ask for permission type thing as well too. Where And the element on
top of what JP said is that, you know, think about this,
boss. It's not only you know, my wife said something to me and
I thought she meant this and said yes, but she meant something else.
But what if, what if in put Vince Russo in this position, your
wife knew that you were going to misinterpret it that way and set you up
right. Yeah, that's kind of what we're that's kind of wrestling is that
you know, you know how to create plausible deniability. It's not just something
it's not just something you scramble to discover after the fact when there's a lawsuit.
You're in the moment creating, you know, moments, you're creating interactions
to put them in the bank for later in case this thing, you know,
blows up and everybody points a finger at you. And that's that's what
makes wrestling so hard. As these guys, you know, they're shallow manipulators
to the outside world, but within their own world they are capable, right,
They're capable of planting, planting these seeds intentionally along the way Like Russo
has a very he has a consistent narrative on this thing. As far as
like that whole nobody avowed you for this meeting, by the way, where
everybody decided on Booker. I'm not saying it didn't happen. Interestingly, Booker
in his second book says that he understood Eric Bischoff himself was in that meeting
where book was sanctioned to be the champion. Now, of course that can't
be true because Bischoff was dealing with the death of his father and was clearly
on his fourth of July, you know, in the remote Mountains ship there,
and I didn't want to be there. Yeah right, Not only was
I not at the meeting, I wouldn't want to be in the meeting he
was. I love our lining up the day for I love it gone.
It's how it has to be told. No way to get through this thing,
Yeah right, it's chronologically and even then you can't help yourself. But
you got Rousseau, who's in the truck with with with Eric and Hogan.
Now I'll correct correct, but new on something he said there, Evan,
it's not made clear on the truck that Hogan's not going to lose to Jarrett.
It's made clear the friday before went through Johnny Lorianitis Russo has to eventually
pitch a scenario where Hogan um wins by d q M. So Hogan,
yeah, no one came into Daytona Beach thinking that there was a any chance
that Holk was going to be convinced to lose to Jarrett that was already a
FATA conferre. Right, so right, yeah, right, So they come
in with this and they meet in the trailer as we've you know, discussed
and chronicled, and yeah, Russo eventually agrees to a plan, you know,
as they go back and forth and he realizes that, uh, the
scenario where you know, ten guys were an inn remember this boss, where
like Scott Steiner was supposed to run in and Hogan's just going to knock everybody
down but not win the title. Cong bro the King Kong finished, bro
m talking about he left everybody laying because and so he does that thing.
Let's talk about Bundy, brother, you will talk about King Kong. I
mean, everybody, is he dead? What who's did he? Brother?
Was he unmarried with children? Is the question? Well? Brother, is
he married with children? Dude? Is the question? Let to go down
the clerk's office and determine that. But if that's really relevant to you,
Terry. But so so they're in the trailer and eventually Russo gets good double
biz uh, and you know, Russo gets the notion that I've got to
create a scenario where basically he throws this out there. You know what,
if you're so frustrated with the situation that Jeff Jarrett comes out and just lays
down for you, and it creates this sort of intrigue with the audiences to
what's really going on. It's exactly the same finish that they did for the
Sting match the year before in Halloween Havoc, Russo's first wc W pay per
view, where Hogan is the one who comes in and lays down out of
frustration and then disappears for a while. Of course, Hogan reads that as
Russo trying to get rid of him. Russo reads that as you know,
trying to m send Hogan away for a while so we could come back with
a with a fresh presentation, probably something along the lines of the fuck unbhull
Cogan that came back the fun Born the Spring. Yeah, we should be
we should also be clear that, yeah, Russo and Hogan have a have
a history of distrust and distaste for the minute the minute that they I think,
met, I think that's so key that you guys had that in there,
and we talked about that. It's like you got to have the thing
where Russo first locks eyes with Hogan upon getting power in WCW and sense his
immediate distrust immediately being on the opposite side working at cross purposes with Hulk And
Russo always says, bro, what he didn't understand is either way, it
was no bigger fan than Hulkogan. Bro, I just thought he shouldn't be
in trunks out there at forty five whatever. He had the whole thing,
he says, it's in his book. And the flip side of that,
of course is Meltzer, who's on the show as well, saying it was
already clear he was trying to phase out Hulkogan, that it was going to
be very important to Vince Russo's executing his vision that Hulko can not be around.
And you just think about this way he had over the creative process and
his contract alone, you know. So, um so we go through this
because like sorry to cut you off place, if if if Russo is successful,
Okay, let's just say that, if if if all of this worked,
you know, like if the ratings went up, if he was able
to get that belt on too Book or Tea have the run, maybe it
maybe it all works, and he's going to get the power. Right,
He's gonna he's going to be the one that people start trusting in this company
where nobody's trusting anybody at this time and they're kind of just throwing everything in
a wall and seeing with sticks. So he's he's angling for that moment,
you know, to try and build that trust and within probably within well time
Warner or whomever you know in either Brass or Sure. Yeah, it would
definitely help him to have to not have this trump card. Yeah and a
win. Don't have this trump card sitting in the locker room every week,
because that's kind of what I told you so. I told you so right
exactly, hoping for rooting for his downfall wasn't just him, It was JJ
Dillon, Kevin Sullivan. It was a lot of the gy justter, a
lot of the trench powers, a WCW that began immediately sort of watching Russa
with a John de Stye and making noise and whispers behind his back about how
he's fucking everything out, which, of course it's not that hard to make
the case that he was, but put that to the side. So so
they get to the trailer, they agree on this finish. But um,
you know, of course that that wrinkle of why would I leave the building?
Russo says. He basically, this is what we were saying before about
creating that sort of reasonable doubt, creating that sort of plausible deniability, as
Russo pitch as a scenario war Hulk, if I go out there and cut
a scathing promo, Bro, you're you know, to put words in his
mouth. You'd look like a bitch if you didn't come out and strangle my
neck when I'm in the ring saying these things about who you have got to
leave the building? Bro? And Bishop story is that you know Hogan was
going to stomp out of there because he was going to be so um,
you know, dissatisfied with However, the match concluded, so both guys were
on board with this idea. Russo kind of tries to take authorship credit for
the idea that Hogan would leave the building. Bishop has his own reason in
his own vision of things involving Halloween havoc. Why Hogan would leave the building
as well, so you know that's that's wrestling. We're like, both sides
knew something's going to happen. The question is who authored it? That is
never ever ever clear. But you know what, it's weird because I wouldn't
you think, like, I don't know what do we now? Or twenty
three years after the fact, wouldn't you think like it would make Russo look
cooler if he was just like, yeah, I was just trying to you
know, fucking work Hogan, you know, yeah, like you know,
like it just came out and just like, this is my plan. I'm
trying to make this thing happen. Like he'd be so much. He probably,
but instead he's I feel like he's, you know, he's trying to
play both sides or he's trying to not take the full onus or the blame.
But I think he would if that were his intention, if that was
true, And maybe the fact that he hasn't taken ownership of it means that
maybe that's not the truth. But you'd think if he did take authorship of
all of this, of trying to manipulate everybody in order to do this,
that it might actually make him look better than he does normal well, he
does. He does try to take credit for creating the preface for why Hogan
would leave the building. He does try to say that he authored that,
But the thing is Bischof has his own story that involved Hogan stomping out of
the building as well. So who do you believe. I don't know.
Let me see, let me put my finger to the wind. I'd say
it's more likely that Bischoff, realizing that they had been hustled here, came
up with a reason why he also would have had Hogan leave the building,
rather than it's unlikely that Russo had that idea. Um. I think what
might have happened here, honestly, is that Russo and Hogan exchanged words between
each other that Bischoff wasn't privy too. That's what it seems like to me.
That's that's possible. But I think you're right, Like I think,
I think like kind of coming up with your own truth because you were worked
or you were manipulated. That that I could see as well too. Yeah,
because he doesn't really you know, Bischoff doesn't deny that they were hoodwinked
here, that they that there was a sense of double cross. But what
he can't what he can't have is him being led around by the nose to
where they were literally worked to leave the building. Um, he's got to
have that. It's mind too, if I know Bischoff, I mean the
ideas that closely sketched out to how they would get to Halloween havoc. I'm
not sure he would have a blow by blow of everything that would happen showing
up and building that story story bible. Yeah, we've got to have nine
ten month plans exactly. And you know, I guess the reason, Evan,
we might as well get to it here. Then. I'm a little
skeptical on Bishop side because it's you know, it's easy to doubt Russo.
The thing is Russo Russo says so much, yeah, and he says it
over so over a decade and a half that you have to really like listen
to everything he said to begin to detect the inconsistencies, Like there's little things
he'll change in his story that kind of tell Okay, there's something there,
there's something where the truth of the matter didn't quite comport to the thrust of
the narrative that he's been trying to portray, and you notice that adjustment there.
He subtly adjusted how many people were in that meeting where book or t
was voted to be the champion, for instance, and jud may be an
honest, you know mistake who maybe he can't guess the head gun. He's
never listed who is in the room, which I find very interesting. You
would think one would remember precisely who was in that room, and those people
could be asked about their recollections of it as well. But all that aside,
you know, one of the key things that you guys bring forward in
the piece is what we said the Friday before bash at the beach. There
is correspondence between Hohole Coogan and Vince Russo, with Johnny Lauri Nitis as the
intermediary. Eric Bischoff had brought John Laurie Nitis into WCW essentially to run the
show, while Russo had taken a powder in the summer of two thousand and
went home again over a frustration with Bischoff essentially redlining his ideas for nitro and
Monday Monday morning, or rather Tuesday morning quarterbacking his ideas is stupid when they
didn't work out, so Russo throws the phone at the wall that's depicted in
one of your Great recrease in the show, and he goes home, and
so Bishof has to find somebody who can show up to the building and come
up with finishes, which Johnny as had a lot of experience doing in All
Japan. So he shows up and suddenly he's basically Eric Bischoff's envoy, his
his proxy in WCW. And so when Russo's talking to Hogan through Lauri Nitis,
he's kind of talking to Hogan through Bishoff really and Laura Nadas is talking
going back and forth like what about this finished? Terry? All that?
Brother? Oh what about the It's okay, we have a plan after the
agreed upon King Kong finish on Friday, both sides think, at least according
to Rousseau, that they're going into Daytona Beach with it with a game plan.
They finally figured out something that works, a scenario that's going to work
for Terry. Um a facts spits out at Turner w CW's offices in the
Turner Building, the Scene and Center building. Yea and hit and you know
I envision it, Boss hitting the carpet, falling to the carpet like a
leaf, like the leaf in a or like the feather and forest gump,
and it takes it takes a poetic fall to the carpet. And in that
letter it's essentially Hull Coken's attorneys. And we know this because in the court
records we dug up for for the podcast coverage, um, the letter is
cited and quoted. The facts is cited and quoted in one of the filings,
especially Hulk Coggan's lawyer saying that we reserve the right to exercise this part
of Hulk Cogan's contract that says he's got creative control. Now, why would
you send that facts after agreeing on a sup right? Why would you send
that after it seems like this is already done with Why what would be the
reason you would reserve your right and set your way? And so when we
got into the stuff you guys had in talking about the show, Evan,
I was like, what did bischofs say about that? And I was I
was intrigued to find and I think you saw the stupo. Bischoff says,
I don't know anything about the facts. Yeah, I don't. That's new.
That's news to me. He says, I thought, well, why
the hell did I think then, having spent so many hours researching this as
I did, that Bishop knew about the facts. Where would I have gotten
that idea? Could it have been I don't know. His own podcast,
Vince also claims that even though everyone felt like they were in agreement about the
finish as a Friday, I mean even allegedly, Russo says that he sent
Johnny Ace to Hogan's house on Friday to map out what the finish would be.
Vince says that Hogan's attorney actually facts a memo to the office after hours
on Friday, saying that this doesn't work for me. Brother. Did you
ever hear of a facts like that? Or is that more? Russo Be
asked, No, that's true. So I'm just fascinated by this. Would
call his attorney and have his attorney say, hey, brother, need you
just send the facts to the office. Just say that doesn't work for me,
brother and son? Hh at the bottom, No, I told him
to do it, just so there was a legal paper trail, right yep,
yeah, Okay. Wrestling podcast with Jack Njorow He's lapsed fan wrestling podcast.
So boss, you know I suppose I suppose it's one thing to forget
that the facts existed, is it another thing entirely to say you told Hew
Cogan to send the fucking facts? Wow? Yeah, wow brother, Okay,
just saying these are the kind of things that leave one at the difficult
position you were in heaven as far as p yeah, no the truth and
that one point Meltzer says, you know, you're dealing with two liars here,
so not more than that you want me to piece this together. And
so I don't know, I think therein lies to frustration, right, Yeah,
yeah, I know, absolutely, Yeah, I mean, and yeah,
I kind of wonder, like how was like was the questioning phrase to
Bischoff, like as well as it was that Conrad did there? You know,
I kind of wonder because I wasn't there for that interview, in particular
with with Bischoff. But yeah, yeah, I mean, maybe he's misremembering
too. That could be a thing, not not misremembering, but maybe he's
getting he's conflating it with another facts or something. I don't know, but
it does sound pretty specific there on that on that clip, trying to get
him the benefit of the doubt. But um, yeah, I mean and
that that is exactly why our our jobs are very difficult too. And one
thing I was going to say also about the manipulation, going back to what
we were saying earlier, is like I mean, think about too, like
in the history of wrestling, like promoters, bookers, and that sort of
soft manipulation that they have to do with their own talent in order to get
them to do the things that they want them to do, you know,
not just like a Montreal screw job situation, but you know, on a
day to day basis, just trying to get the matches in the ring and
things like that. You know. So that's just part of it to a
great a job, you know, coming up with yeah, fairy tales of
what what's what's in it for you if you lose with no intention of that
were delivering you know, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So that's just
like part of the h That's just part of the way you do business,
you know, in this business, that's just the way that people people communicate
with each other as well too, especially on this side you're talking about and
then when you're talking about a wrestler who has the upper hand like Hogan,
he's the guy that has all the leverage, you know, so you really
gotta in order to get in there and to try and work that. I
mean, you really gotta some sort of Oceans eleven type scheme to try to
work. And so now you people, I think, can start to appreciate
why you would want to do a dark Side of the Ring episode about something
like this. I mean, there's there's so much about the business that a
story like this illustrates. But good luck trying to orient the average Joe in
warp speed on all of these so that this seems like an intrigue. I
mean, I think you guys did an admirable job tackling the challenge, I
hope. So, yeah, for sure, I think especially when you consider
who you had in front of you. You know, if you had Hogan
in front of you, then you just make forty percent, excuse me,
eighty percent of the episode about Hogan. It's deep, endlessly fascinating. But
yeah, yeah, boss, I want to get something from you first,
So I haven't had a chance to talk to you about this, but you've
seen it and then of course want to get to happen about it. Jeff
Jarrett, this is great because we've heard Jeff on his own podcast. We
talked about it when we covered it on last What he said, you know
it really on his own podcast with Conrad is when he first talked about his
experience and perspective on Bash of the Beach. But I have to say I
feel he was much more pointed in the things he said for the cameras for
Dark Side about just sort of how gross a situation he was in. I'm
not sure a lot of people have spent a lot of time, enough time
rather thinking about the position Jeff Jarrett was out here. He's just sort of
this bit player in this larger, you know, game of puppeteering. What
did you think about Jeff comes off on this? You know, I never
I was surprised, not necessarily surprised at at at how he was feeling,
but I was surprised because that he how emotional he was over it, and
how and how really personal he took this whole what he was doing and what
he was what he was told to do, and his reaction was really honestly,
it's it's kind of funny. I have I have spent most of my
fandom being so anti Jeff Jarrett, but in recent years, right in recent
years, I have come to kind of respect and admire him a little bit
more. And and and this kind of helped, like to know he was
kind of that torn about it and torn about what, you know, what
he was doing and how was gonna play and how was going to affect him
and the company and stuff. It was really fascinating. Yeah. Um,
I think he's really kind of like the emotional core of the of the episode
and of the story in a lot of ways too. And you know,
you're right, like when I was a kid, like growing up, like,
yeah, Jeff Jarrett you know, was always like I mean, he
was always a heel for the most part, So I was supposed to not
like him, but I really didn't like it, right, he was annoying.
Yeah. Yeah. But the more that I've gotten to know him on
a personal level, um, through working on Tales of the Territories. We
had a blast working together on the on the on the Memphis and the Andy
Kaufman episodes. Um, but working with him on this, it was like,
Yeah, it all kind of gets put into context, you know,
being a second or third general erration you know, person in this business,
and he has such a respect for it and what it's supposed to be and
how you're not supposed to cheat fans and you're not supposed to you know,
disrespect h yeah, the fans, you know, by what was going to
happen in this event that level of contractual control to someone who is an an
owner an owner you know, because and and he's smart enough to know that,
and you know from that that aint Yeah, totally like his experience,
you know, growing up into the business with you know, his father and
his grandmother and everything, and knowing that that was only going to lead to
disasters and conflicts of interest, and so having him being kind of the wise
one in this, but then also having to be the one to you know,
consummate it, do it yea, Yeah, to do the dirty deed,
you know, like it's it's it's like looks he looks party to it,
you know, like until you hear him talk about it in an episode
like this, you almost feel like he's like, oh, this is the
business, Like who the fuck cares like this, I'm checked out. But
like like JP said, he was actually like closely impacted by this. He
looks back on this with a great degree of reticence and shame, not just
like not my problem, you know, he doesn't look at that. Yeah,
no, yeah, exactly. And then one other kind of shocking thing
too, is just that, like, you know, he's very candid about
how he feels about Hulkogan to this day, about that particular incident and kind
of losing respect for him in that moment because it's like, you know,
here, you know, here, you have this business that, yes,
you helped to put on the map again in the mid nineties, but then
of course, like you know, here's now you're going to sort of try
to take it down, you know, with your own like putting yourself before
the whole business and the fans. And so I think he and the fact
that Jeff kind of finds he is the emotional passionate wrestling you know fan and
wrestler that that takes the most offense to that, and I think that kind
of does create the stakes for the episode. And it's great to see in
the episode two how he you know, moments leading up to doing the deed,
he's really considering, you know, going into business for himself, which
would you know, wouldn't that have been interesting? Yeah, because he kind
of you know, when you when I first heard that I was like,
oh, yeah, you're gonna attack him, But that's not what he meant.
He meant like, if I go in that ring and I jump on
le Hogan with working punches, he's gonna have to work with me and at
least half a minute and a half match, right. Yeah. That's the
thing is is that he loved that love. You know, Hogan's not just
gonna sit there and and let Jared throw working punches at him without hope and
up and coming back. So that was a real option in Jeff Jared's hear,
or he might just scream and freak out and just run out of the
ring. Absolutely, and I think they're gonna have They're gonna have a shoot
work match exactly. It's I was like, bro, huh what do oh?
He would teach. He would fucking talk about lawsuits. Brother, Yeah,
brother, he fake attacked me, dude against brother, you're honor he
punched me. But but but he didn't punch you well exactly, so he
wor But here's the thing. He didn't work punch Hulk Cogan. He worked
punched Terry Bala brother exactly. In that moment, I was Terry Balay in
that moment, so who has exclusive dominions, sir, over deciding when it's
Hull Cogan or when it's Terry Ballet involved in an episode that happened. Would
you happen to be the sole arbiter of that? No, dude, it's
it's just it's just the feeling that comes over me. Brother, I said,
Okay, got it. So we'll refer to that. You know,
it's the big man upstairs. Dude, interfer to you. Yeah, you
know, because I think even when Jeds have you on the show Man,
you don't need You had to use um in the in the Steroid Trial episode,
you had to use an interview that Wade Keller did with Hule Cogan about
testifying against Vince from two thousand and two that he happened to have an archived
audio, Bless his soul. Um. So that was great, but you
know, you don't show it a picture. It's over one of your recreas,
but you play the audio. And in this case, um, if
I remember correctly, Evan, you know, seventy percent of the way down
the road on this episode, all of a sudden someone uploads to YouTube.
I think it was bub but the love Sponge himself the yea, brother,
Yeah, that's right. Hogan calls into Bubba the Monday, your day after
bash at the Beach, which, you know, unless you lived in Tampa
at the time, pre streaming audio, pre YouTube, you never heard this,
and he spends a whole yarn about the thing, and you guys picked
the things he said that were probably closer to reality. But he also claims
in that interview that he was he never left the building and he was backstage
taping his fist ready to go after Reso. I'm sure you wanted to put
that in. Yes, I did. It was, yeah, it was.
It was tricky again, you know, I'm keeping man just you know,
a very civilian audience in mind, right, right, yeah, introducing
a whole other layer of yeah, right, yeah, exactly exactly. So
you have to be careful because it's just gonna it's gonna make it even worse
and harder. And there are all there are things like that that would have
been so great to put in, and you know, we could have done
like fantasy recrey for it and stuff like that too, but like it's just
it's tough, you know, and so but yeah, that interview is kind
of key. Um, although I do believe that Hogan is doing a weird
quause, I you know, shoot and work like he's not wanting to pull
the curtain back all the way, um, in terms of everything. But
I think he's also trying to get his message out there, establish a you
know, as Bishop sort of says in Conrad's thing, kind of a you
know, a chain of illegal paper, paper trail of sorts, you know,
with getting his story out there as quickly as possible. Um. But
yeah, it's it does muney the waters in terms of what he said.
But there are a couple of nuggets there which we do use in the episode
that you know, our key, especially all the vitriol he has for Vince
Rousseau. What it does tell me is that, you know, the part
that we that isn't in there where he talks about taping his fist with his
razor blades and all that bullshit. What it does tell me is the day
after this, he was fuming at the fact that he was perceived as being
snookerd out of being in a position to respond to Vince Russell. Yeah,
snookers, that's right, Terry. Who what Who's pushing pushing? Brother?
Why? Why do you say that Terry, I was kind of a weird
interjection. But what who did this snooka? I mean it was going to
be you're Jimmy and eighty four? Brother? What do you mean eight?
Who you've been talking to you? Brother, I've been talking to Mike Tyson,
Terry. Well, you know, brother, Mike Tyson. Dude,
he never actually fought a fight. Brother, he worked all those fights.
Dude, he's awesome. You can trust brother, Okay, your honor.
But he was so pissed, so pissed that that he got put into a
position where he was not in the building for Russo to say these things and
have a response that he had to create this thing of I was backstage ready
to go out there and people were holding me back, and even Fishops had
come on. That's that's ridiculous because they have their whole story about being on
the plane and popping champagne and all that. I'm sure it's true. Um,
feel like it went exactly according to plan. Um. But I thought
that was such a fascinating little little clue that that Hoped would be compelled to
say that on Bub's radio show because he realizes immediately that it makes him look
like a punk that Russo's out there saying those things without getting his his um
getting strangled. You're right, Yeah, you're right. So we talked about
Jarrett, We talked about, um, you know, the totality of it.
What do you think? I don't know. I guess this is a
million dollar question. Um, who do you think is more truthful? Russo
or Bischoff? On balance? Well, I mean I do think that they
both kind of have their own version of selective memory and kind of you know,
yeah, kind of making up like microscop white mistruths, you know,
white lies, you know, in terms of like being able to tilt the
story a little more in their favor I think. And then just the totality
of them, that's it's like a lot of them, you know. I
think, um that it's tricky. But like I think they come from two
different perspectives too, Like they're coming from two totally different creative perspectives and also
business perspectives. I think like Bischoff does believe deep down that Hogan is what's
best for business. Where the business goes the money, that's where where Hogan
goes goes the money, right, I think he does truly believe that and
I think the philosophies are completely at odds. So it's it's tricky. There's
there's like a mixture of mistruth perhaps or just selective memory, uh and and
miscommunication. But also, um, I think just a complete difference of philosophy
in terms of like Russo clearly sees the path forward as without Hogan and Bischoff
believes that you need Hogan in order to have a path forward. And so,
UM, I don't know, but I will say that I think,
like, like I said, you know, Vince Russo obviously has such a
negative reputation among wrestling fans and among yeah, anyone in wrestling, He's probably
got one of the worst reputations. But I do so going into it,
I kind of defaulted into like, Okay, well, this story is just
all Vince Russo's fault, you know. But I coming out of it and
having been in it now for so long and seeing you know how many of
my colleagues I've you know, whose spirits I've crushed with this episode, m
I sort of I sort of look at it on the other ways. I
don't really see him as the bad guy in the story. And I do
think that Vince Russo has he does mean well, you know, I think
he has the best of engines in terms of what he's trying to do.
There's a line in the episode. Was it from DDP or was it Lance
I can't remember who said, or you know that he doesn't wake up and
say, Okay, who am I going to screw? Who am I going
to bury? Who am I going to swerve today? You know, I
think he does wake up truly, at least when he was working in the
business actively, I think he was coming from a place of trying to make
it better or trying to enhance the storytelling in some way, and he had
a lot of roadblocks or whatever whether his ideas are good or not, you
know, because that's been litigated. We know Vince McMahon was a very good
filter for his ideas. But I do think he is well intentioned, you
know, in a business of people who might not be And before I you
know, fair warning, JP, before I go to you for who you
took more seriously? Who I thought was being more tread I want to ask.
Even the episode sort of starts with Rousseau talking about, you know,
I hate wrestling like I hate wrestling, and by the end of the episode,
this is why I hate wrestling, right, Why why did you guys
decide to frame it around like Russo's It almost seems at the end of the
episode like this is really about Vince Russo. This episode, you know they
begin the book the book ends of the of the episode or about him,
Yeah, it is. And I think it's like, you know, um,
well, at first, I sort of thought, you know, because
there were a lot of people who when they on the network side or whatever,
when they first saw the episode and they saw the first line of the
episode is somebody saying I hate wrestling. You know, it's like, well,
we got a show about wrestling, and stay tuned though, yes,
right exactly. But I thought that that's an interesting perspective, Yeah, for
somebody who's worked in it for so long, And I think it might sound
to somebody who's more familiar with Vince Russo. You might you know, you
probably roll your eyes, you've heard of a million times, you know,
type of thing. But I think it's a very interesting introduction to this person
you're about to meet, is that they are have been so jaded, bitter,
you know, people of people of you know, he's been so maligned
by this industry that he's become that, you know, and I think trying
to get to the try to answer, to get to the heart of that
um through a story like this was kind of the challenge. And I don't
know if we got there exactly, but I think it gives you Yeah,
yeah, so I think that was It was just it was just, you
know, yeah, it was just kind of an effort to do something a
little different, like open the episode with here's a guy who's just like,
hey, guys, there's some days where I wake up and say, I
fucking hate wrestling, you know, likes you know, I mean, yeah,
I used to have action figures on my shelf and now that I don't,
you know, so it happens sometimes, and so I maybe I don't
know, Maybe I just thought it'd be interesting to get to the heart of
that, you know. Yeah, j P, where do you come down?
Bishof Russo? Who's been more truthful? Here? Landstorm? Yeah?
Fair? I mean, god, who's more truthful? It's a wash?
I really I don't sure. I kind of if you, if you,
if you had me place a bet on who would come out as who would
come across as more truthful? Before seeing any of the material, I would
have bet a wash for sure. I mean I I I guess in a
weird way. Russo, Yeah, slightly, that's surprising. That's not his
I know. I just there's something about Bishoff. There's something about Bischoff where
he acts like I mean, honestly, it probably it probably means more to
more to Russo now, especially because you played the clip from Bishop. Yeah,
that's fine, that's what it should be, honestly, But he just
he always acts like no I can say I know exactly what to say to
get myself out of trouble. Yeah, that's where he always comes across as
And to me, that's not there's something there's something not honest in that obviously.
Well I think, well that's what I'm saying though, Like why does
he feel the need that he's still or he's still worried about getting into trouble
where if he owned it, I think he would get over more with the
fans. I don't know. I think I was like, yeah, yeah,
he just just played. He should just he should just be more honest,
and I think he would probably it would be better for him in the
long run if they were honest, they wouldn't be in the wrestling business.
I think what we can't forget about Eric honestly is that, you know,
he's still a lot of Hulk Hogan's consigliaris. I know you didn't get you
didn't get Hulk on the show, Evan, but you basically got hold.
Yeah, you got everything Hulk was going to say as as filtered through Eric.
I mean, I think that WCW was so fractured by this point that
the fact that perhaps on a piece of paper which Bischoff says and Russo disputes,
that Bischoff technically had authority over Russo in this sort of shared power arrangement
that Brad Siegel came up with in two thousand for these two. The fact
of the matter is, by the time we get to Bash at the Beach,
you know, Bischoff and Hogan had been pretty much mia from WCW tapings
for weeks and weeks and weeks before this, Russo himself went home, leading
to Johnny a suddenly turning up and doesn't come back until the week before and
when he gets his hands into things, suddenly everyone's voting for book or t
to be champion. But with us, with with Bischoff. Rather, it
pretty much my bash at the beach. He's not there to run WCW,
even if he's getting paid to do so, even if there's a piece of
paper that says that's his job. He's there to represent Hulkogan's interests. And
you wouldn't think that that would be an appropriate posture for him, considering what
he said about what he was hired to do in April of two thousand by
Brad Siegel. But it's basically what he's doing. He's sure, he's saying,
in my opinion, this is what's best for WCW, precisely what Hogan
wants. But it's almost like by the time we get to this backstage disagreement,
there's no Bishoff stepping out of the shoes of the guy communicating what Hulk
wool and won't do, you know, there's no like Bishof stepping into the
shoes of Okay, well, I'm actually going to be an arbiter here.
There is, of course a call with Brad Siegel where he's asked to,
you know, go with one scenario or another as if it matters. The
only scenario that matters is the one whole Cogan's going to agree to even Brad
Siegel has to adhere to a section eleven E thank you very much. But
yeah, and also, can't you just see like somebody at the level of
Brad Siegel being like, oh, yeah, well, you know whatever Hogan
wants, fine, who cares? Yeah, you know, especially yeah,
especially if you kind of if you weigh the distinct possibility in my mind that
Brad Siegel had already kind of given up on WCW. And it's kind of
like, yeah, there's no way those people care that that level, you
know, that microscopic level. Yeah, it would surprise me if by this
point it wasn't very clear that, you know, they we're looking to sell
WCW. And Russo feels this. Russo talks about this. He says that
he was pretty much convinced looking back that they were in the process of selling
already because we've never made sense to Russo is that after this build up,
after this blow up, and they go to Siegel and they have the showdown,
and Siegel says, go with Eric's idea that Russo, you know,
in the midst of all this, and slightly before says, look, if
you want Eric to run WCW, that's fine. I'm gonna go home,
pay me out the rest of my contract. That's fine. And Siegel says,
no, no, no, we want you to write the show.
And Russo continues to write for WCW through October of two thousand November, even
after all of this happens and they get sued over what he says. I
mean, you can read this as Brad Siegel taking Vince Russo's side after taking
Bischoff's side, and who what what decision to go with? And it's like,
why would Siegel stick by the guy that put them in this jam?
Well, I think it did someone to write the TV. Yeah, I'm
just gonna say, I think it's called treading water. You know. I
think they just think that's a fair reading. I do. I think they
just need WCW to keep literally going intel who whatever's gonna happen, whatever the
end game is with it, like if it's gonna be sold, if it's
gonna be shut down, Like we just need TV on the air now.
I mean, look in production, I've been in those situations too, Like
you know, you have a you have a lot of people breathing down your
neck, you got a lot of things you got to get out the door
up in the air, and you know, sometimes you just you just need
people to do their job, you know. And yeah it's tough. You
know. One thing I was going to say real fast, um is uh
I remember God? Was it the Brawl for All episode? I think I
think it was after the Brawl for All episode where Vince Russo was on Twitter
and he said that, um, you know what they should do on the
Dark Side of the Ring, bro is everybody should be hooked up to lie
detectors, you know, and if any if and you know, I'll only
do the show if everyone's hooked up to lie detectors. And it's funny like
that, Like as gimmicky and kind of corny as that sounds, it's kind
of like, God, what would this episode have been? Like? Actually,
I kind of pissed at myself. We didn't do that. You know.
Well, Um, we've talked about on lapsed Fan an episode of whatever
that show was? Boss? What what show was it where Louildano was hooked
up to a light attacker and asked if it was fake? Um? It
was on Fox? Was it the Tricked Again show? Something like that?
Sling fans have been tried again, but it did. It did prompt him
screaming because he said it's not fake and they determined that was a lie and
he flew off the handle. Um So, yeah, it's entertainment one way
or the other, for sure. That idea Russo has had, that idea
put me in a lie detect or test, do it on raw broc.
He wants to kind of do that as like a pay per view or something.
Um but yeah, that's another thing before we wrap this up that I
think is a wrinkle that people need to appreciate. And I think people who've
listened to the show lately know this. Heeric Bischoff and Vince Russo don't don't
part ways after Bash at the Beach two thousand and never talked to each other.
In fact, they they pretend to have made up in two thousand and
ten and TNA when Russo was already working there as head writer under Dixie and
Bischoff and Hogan get hired to turn this thing around Jack and dial it in
God and they and you look, you read the coverage, You read Bischoff's
interviews at the time when he came in in Januate two thousand and ten,
and in late two thousand and nine, and he's talking about how, you
know, we we sat down with Vince and Hulk sat down with Vince and
reached an understanding, and he's not as bad a guys with this after all
the lawsuits and everything, after they had just battled and battled and battled,
and and then there's another blow up inevitably of course, between Hogan, between
Russo and Bischoff, and that colors when Bischof's talking about, you know,
Russo being a pathological liar and painting with a broad brush and characterizing Russo,
we have to remember that he's not just talking about his frame of mind visa
Vince Russo in two thousands. He's also importing a lot of things that happened
to deck It after that. So what's really hard is to is to see
the Bishoff, is to see Bischoff as he saw Russo in two thousand,
as opposed to how he sees him today. Because as we talked about,
right boss, there was that show down where, yeah, Bischof has his
whole story about he catches Russo in a lie in front of Dixie Carter,
about telling Dixie one thing and then telling everybody else another thing, yeah,
right, about the advisability of featuring her on television as a character, and
who's pushing for it and who's pushing against it. Russo telling Bischoff man,
she's killing me, she wants to be on TV, and then him him
telling her on the other side, you know you should be on TV.
You're great, basically, and then that coming to a head. They're being
a meeting, Bishoff saying, who do you believe going to a third party?
Third party? Says Bischoff, telling the truth, that's a third party.
I heard something about a third party. Don't worry about he's talking about
a third party candidate for pressure into the United States. I can run the
country from Mexico from the Baja. I've done it before, So keep that
in mind. Why keep all we learned during our tenh journey about the second
round of Bischoff and Russo interpersonal relations one two, and that's our queue to
wrap this thing up. Davin, I want to thank you for joining us.
I want to thank you for tapping us to help inform the episode.
It was. It was a challenge and a welcome one and uh and thanks
for all the efforts putting it together and getting into us, getting into it
with us here. Oh man, I appreciate it so much and the only
thanks for having me back on the show as well too. And there's one
thing I want to do, Hopefully I can maybe inspire the next lapsed fan
T shirt that I want you guys to put up on the market. Um,
because one thing I learned, you know, with Haul Cogan through the
process of a story like this, you know when he's when he's filing lawsuits
and getting people in there, and they gotta they gotta do depositions. I
think everybody is entitled here listens to the show to have the opportunity to purchase
the Hogan must oppose instead of must that will oppose. And I think we
will depose over Pro Wrestling Teas Boss. Indeed, I think I think that's
going to happen. Hogan must depose. We need it Pro Wrestling Teeth dot
Com. Um, all right, guys, yeah, thank you so much,
appreciate it, and uh yeah, definitely, everybody check out the episode.
Let us know you think it's a labyrinth, and hey, if you
don't like it, you try. I'm gonna give you all the footage and
you can edit it and you can. Maybe that's what we'll do our first
open source Dark Side of the Ring. That's a great idea, you know,
you know, it's most valuable. And I find this even when we
did our world class stuff, rightwa stuff Trial of his Life, our most
intensive journeys, like give us the questions that remain unanswered at the end of
this, that's all that matters. Whether you liked it or whether you didn't,
you can shove it up your ass, go fuck yourself cares. What
matters is where this can go that it didn't what what questions both our series
on Bash at the Beach two thousand and this Dark Side of the Ring episode
rays that weren't quite answered to your satisfaction. That's all. That's the key.
That's what a lawyer would do. They've come through everything and say one
about this moment. There was this moment, who exactly said what and who
exactly understood what to be the case? Because after biting at this apple to
there's nothing but the core left. We still don't feel like we know exactly
what Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff expected to happen that night and what Vince Russo
told them to expect to happen that night and in the days beforehand. Why
the facts? What's the strategic reason? When we were talking about putting the
episode together, Evan, it was like, should we view this facts as
some kind of smoking gun of something? And it's like, of what,
like, who the fucking who knows? You know what I mean? If
if we're going to go from acknowledging I told hel to send it to not
remembering it existed, it's kind of hard to then answer the question of why
the smoking gun was necessar I know. And you also kind of have to
be like, you know, like like these are the dying days of this
company. Like we said earlier, it's a four lone conclusion, thank god,
you know. But like us, you know, just like like we've
got to find the Zodiac killer, you know, all right of bash at
the beach two thousand, you know, it's like we also should like I
don't mean in the company now doesn't need the Zodiac all right, God damn
it, But like you know, you gotta look at yourself in the mirror
and stare to candle for two hours and also examine what the hell are we
doing with this too? So that's what we want that's the call solar system.
You've took our episodes in and I'm taking Dark side of the Ring.
What are the questions finally tuned as you can, that still remain unanswered?
Um, and perhaps one day we will find our way. I'm sure Conrad
will listen all this and take all this in and ask bishof some questions,
ask Jarted some questions on on his podcast and a Russo as podcast. I'm
sure he'll be responding. Bro. Look, bro, I don't like to
go back into this, but I just have to say, and then he'll
talk for about two and a half hours and it'll be great, but it's
going to introduce a whole other set of what ifs and what about is ms.
I think that Russo is the only one who's got the right idea.
Lie detectors all around, you know, Like, I think that's the that's
all we're gonna have to do it. That's the follow up, that's the
money idea. But the problems you got to get him in the same area,
Well you don't have to do it. I guess you could do it
separate and yeah, yeah, I love it. So there's the call out.
Evan Husney Dark Side of the ring. The great work continues. Bash
at the Beach TLF approved and TLF sourced. So what watch yourself in terms
of how you take in respond to this one and uh enjoy. We'll see
you next time. Of the LAPT Entertainment Group. It's content is intended for
braveing use of me, say