Say Anything

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On The Bechdel Cast.

00:00:02
Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and Beast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

00:00:16
Speaker 1: Wow wow, wow Wow, look at us, We look at us.

00:00:23
Speaker 3: We're saying anything, Kitlin.

00:00:26
Speaker 1: One of the things I've always loved about you is that you'll say kind of anything.

00:00:30
Speaker 3: You know.

00:00:30
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a version of say anything that's about like a shock jock. You know, this guy'll say.

00:00:37
Speaker 3: And he's not afraid to say it like it is.

00:00:39
Speaker 1: It's actually a Joe Rogan biopic title when you think about it, because that man simply does be saying anything. He really does, he'd be saying so many things. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is jam Loftus and my name is.

00:00:57
Speaker 3: Kaydarante, and we are doing a little intro for a show that we did live in Portland. So most of this episode is the live show, and I think that's kind of really all we need to say to introduce it.

00:01:18
Speaker 1: I think so yeah. I mean, we were in Portland, Oregon. We were at one of our favorite places curious comedy theaters support them if you're in the area. And we didn't have a guest on this show, and that's because we are special.

00:01:32
Speaker 3: Weird, so strong and independent.

00:01:36
Speaker 1: We watched this movie and we're like, it's a love story between a father and his daughter. We've got this one. We've got this one, and we put on our little outfits and we do do doot it out to stage. And actually, what I will say before that, if you want to see us do doot dude out on stage, we are asking a bunch of tour dates for next year coming up soon as well as in Los Angeles on December tenth. If you're in town, we're covering It's a Wonderful Life.

00:02:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, at Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it? On December tenth. Tickets for that are on sale. You can grab them on our link tree, link tree slash Bechtel Cast and uh yeah, stay tuned for more tour dates. And also if you want to see us out on stage for this specific show that you're about to hear the episode for, Let's say you want a visual aid or you just want to see more stuff because we cut out some like fun and games from the audio version of the episode, but that you can see in video format you can buy on demand tickets. The link for that will also be on our link tree.

00:02:51
Speaker 1: So yes, and we looked so so please enjoy that. But but if you know, if you want to just listen in the ca we had to stand and here we are saying quite literally.

00:03:08
Speaker 3: Any anything.

00:03:10
Speaker 2: The bedellcast.

00:03:13
Speaker 1: So before we started the show, I just want to do some housekeeping. We've received some really excellent treats. I feel like, Okay, first of all, we love being in Portland so much. It's the city we have come to most in the country.

00:03:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, we.

00:03:29
Speaker 1: Absolutely love doing shows here. We literally do shows here more so than where we live. Yeah, it's we really love it here. We we love get to hang out with you guys here. And I will say consistently because we were here earlier this year, and give it up if you were here earlier this year, all right, welcome back some returning friends. Yeah, and so you'll remember that, you know, there were a number of hot dogs brought and I threw a knife at the audience and Portland did not a point this time around, because early I gotta I gotta, I checked my other folder the other day, and that's a dangerous place to be.

00:04:08
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, this is.

00:04:10
Speaker 1: But I got one of the most pleasant messages in the entire world from a man named Julian from Old Town Pizza next Door give it up for there, saying what I have been waiting for someone to say to me my whole life, which is, do you want a hot dog pizza hot and ready next door?

00:04:29
Speaker 3: Yeah?

00:04:30
Speaker 1: So I would like to present to you and offer to the audience hot dog pizza like it's and like you can if you're within fifty feet you can smell it. Yes, does anyone want some? Okay? Wow, Okay, I'll give them out during the recap. I'll come out into the eye. We've got some plates. I just really want to spread spread the joy here, all right, all right, okay, we're here. It's a chaotic start to the show.

00:05:00
Speaker 3: It sure is. Yes, So thanks once again to you for being here. Thank you so much. Give it off yourselves, and give it up to the people watching the live stream from wherever you are.

00:05:14
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, how stinky is that pizza? And You're like, oh, baby, you have no idea. It is a stinky pizza. And I mean that is a big compliment. Yes, yeah, so has anyone here never listened to our show before? Oh?

00:05:27
Speaker 3: Oh, you raised your hand? A couple of hands coming up.

00:05:31
Speaker 1: This is really fun because I've never heard someone put their hands together. It's just just a shameful, shaky race of the hand. It's fine, Like, it's just a podcast. It is not a big deal. It's probably you're like mentally healthier than most of the people here. If you don't, if you don't listen to podcast, it's fine. We should we should tell we should let those three people know what that is so true.

00:05:55
Speaker 3: We are the Bechtel Cast. We analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point. Well, Jimie, what is that? Oh?

00:06:07
Speaker 1: I will tell you. It is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. There's a lot of versions of the test, but basically it was made as a bit in the eighties for the incredible comic collection Dikes to Watch Out For. I knew, I knew we would get a whistle for that because Portland is cool. Yeah, there's a lot of versions of the test, but our version of the test requires that there be two characters of a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue or more. We prefer if it is an interaction of meaning. But I am I was requested to make an exception for this movie specifically, which we will get to. But yeah, that's our whole deal. Do the three of you feel satisfied? Okay? Oh me a really meaningful nod, yes, thank you king. We do need the permission before we can move forward. Uh and uh, today we recovered we've we've covered a lot of movies from the Pacific Northwest. I know it's like technically disrespectful to cover a Seattle movie here, so we do apologize. Uh, but we are covering say Anything for this show. Who here has seen Say Anything? Give it up? By round of a par Yeah, hands, hands, folks, hands, all right, all right?

00:07:32
Speaker 3: Who has not ever seen the movies? By round of applause. Guys, it's not a second grade classroom. You get you can class. It's fun. Okay, it seems like kind of halfway split. So we're gonna have to do a really good job, we're telling them what the movie is.

00:07:48
Speaker 1: I guess, well, well, let's I think there's a halfway split on stage as well. Because had you seen this movie before?

00:07:54
Speaker 3: I had?

00:07:54
Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, what was your history with it?

00:07:56
Speaker 3: I saw it in college, maybe even in high school, but I don't know twenty years ago or so, and not since I didn't feel compelled to watch it again.

00:08:08
Speaker 1: Interesting? Interesting?

00:08:09
Speaker 3: And how about you, Jamie, what's your history with it?

00:08:11
Speaker 1: Nothing? Nothing, I had not seen. Yeah, this is like you know, I love Joan Cusack. So I was really excited to see her in this movie. And then unfortunately I did not really see her in this movie, which was a letdown. No, I didn't. I didn't grow up with this movie. I didn't have my dad had like a unique dislike of Peter Gabriel. Oh, and so this was just like never gonna make it into our rotation. Ever. Sure, ever, Ever, I don't know what it was though, Like I should have. I should have asked him before the show. But there's sometimes there were just like certain is he British? Ah?

00:08:49
Speaker 3: Does Peter Gabriel British?

00:08:51
Speaker 1: Is my friend is nodding yes, and she's saying yes audibly Okay, there are just like certain British people my dad doesn't fuck with. Is that weird?

00:09:01
Speaker 3: I don't know.

00:09:02
Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay, well i'd never seen it and now I have, and and I have some things to say. I will say I do not dislike this movie. It's it's a weird movie. There's a lot of weird stuff going on. I was most tickled, thrilled and delighted to find that Fraser's dad plays a major role in it. Yes, I was shot. I heard his voice and there was like a sense memory that shook through my body. And he's in Seattle. I mean, hello, we gotta get Mahoney in Seattle. Do you think someone saw Mahoney in Say Anything? Was like, we gotta keep this guy in Seattle. He's so Seattle. We gotta make him the dad of the fanciest two boys. I just oh, I love as a Fraser Head. I really appreciated his presence. Okay, so Say Anything. It's a movie. It is uh. It's written and directed by Cameron Crow. It's produced by James Brooks and poly Platt. Give it for poly Platt, and you must remember this head's in the house. Okay, not enough interesting. Interesting, But yeah, it's from nineteen eighty nine, kind of a gen X classic stars John Cusack, sort of Joan Cusack. Okay, Caitlyn, I have Do you know how to say the lead actress's name in this movie?

00:10:27
Speaker 2: Oh?

00:10:27
Speaker 1: It was a real Owen McGregor for me.

00:10:30
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because I really didn't.

00:10:32
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be the first to say her name out loud, because I will.

00:10:35
Speaker 3: It's just a lot of owls. I meant to look it up. It is spelled Ione.

00:10:41
Speaker 1: Is that Owen M. MacGregor. I can't do it Eon? Ion?

00:10:49
Speaker 3: Does anybody know Ione?

00:10:53
Speaker 1: Unbelievable? Wow? All right, all right, we'll take your word for it this time. Can you say McGregor just for me?

00:11:04
Speaker 3: Do you mean you and McGregor.

00:11:09
Speaker 1: I just don't know that my mouth can make that shake? Can I wash your mouth? Can you do it again?

00:11:14
Speaker 3: Let me help you break it down. Yeah, you win, you and McGregor. You win, McGregor, Ewan McGregor.

00:11:25
Speaker 1: Close you you you win when you win, you win, you win.

00:11:43
Speaker 3: We have to move on.

00:11:44
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, all right?

00:11:48
Speaker 3: Shall I do the recap? Are we ready for the recap?

00:11:50
Speaker 1: Caitlin's famous recap? All right, and while you do that, just in the front hands up for who wanted I have? I have three plates, so it's gonna be well, I guess it's just you too.

00:12:05
Speaker 3: There's someone.

00:12:06
Speaker 1: Oh that's oh okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, Caitlyn, don't worry about it. Don't worry about I'm just servicing my community, all.

00:12:13
Speaker 3: Right, Okay. It's the day of high school graduation for Lloyd played by John Cusack. He is telling his two best friends, who are women, what their names are, Corey and DC. He's telling them how he wants to take a girl named Diane Court out on a date. And Lloyd's friends are basically like, good luck with that. She's too smart for you. Because Diane Court played by Ione sky Eman McGregor, she is the valedictorian of her class. She gives a speech a graduation. Lloyd is like a wooga, what I he.

00:13:00
Speaker 1: Literally is doing? He's he's really doing the cartoon wolf thing in uh in in that where he's like talking over her speech, which we were talking about as we were watching it today. It's one of those incredible movie moments where she gives a speech that I think is like, inarguably mid like, oh, it's like gen X's nonsense. It's like, aren't you scared about the future? Me kind of scared about the future. And then all the kids are like, oh my god. Kurt Cobain like you're just like what the fuck is she talking about? There? What is she saying? And then later at the party, everyone's like, really cool speech, Diane, and you're like that speech was that was like a second draft at best?

00:13:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it was a flop.

00:13:52
Speaker 1: I would say I really wish that she gave one of those like really incredible high school valedictorian speeches that always like the cadence of them is so beautiful to me, where it's like, hello, students, my name is Diane Court.

00:14:06
Speaker 3: Wow what a year? Uh huh twenty ten? Are you resigning your own graduation speech?

00:14:14
Speaker 2: Jamie?

00:14:16
Speaker 1: President Obama. He didn't become the president this year, but he did while we were in high school. I have so many good memories of it, Like, I love high school valedictorian speeches and hers was garbage. Yeah, And then meanwhile John Cusack is screaming over her, being like look at our eyes, and you're like, wow, I hope they end up together.

00:14:43
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, So Diane's dad aka John Mahoney aka Fraser's dad, he is so proud of Diane. He gives her two graduation presidents. One of them is a car and the other one is an engagement ring.

00:15:02
Speaker 1: Her dad is trying to like Fraser's dad is trying to marry his daughter. The whole movie, it.

00:15:09
Speaker 3: Does really feel like that.

00:15:10
Speaker 1: It's very bizarre. The car, You're like, Okay, this is like kind of a classic. I mean, it becomes plot relevant, but like it's sort of a classic, you know, like upper middle class moment. But then when he sort of proposes to her later where he gives I'm like, imagine your father giving you a diamond ring.

00:15:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I could not imagine that. And then he's like, your mom gave this to me as it so his wife gave him a diamond ring.

00:15:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're not told what the occasion was. Also, it doesn't I also like, I don't, I mean, whatever, anyone can give anyone a diamond ring. Question. I don't know why I'm fighting for this right. Give a ring to whoever you want. But there's no way he and his daughter are the same ring size.

00:16:00
Speaker 3: True.

00:16:01
Speaker 1: That to me was unbelievable. Yeah, and I was just really focused on Yeah. It seemed like he really wanted to. And anytime they're on screen together, there's this like romantic music playing. Yes, You're just like, why are this strings swelling when this father it's giving his teenage daughter a diamond ring? Don't.

00:16:20
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it does happen in the movie, so sure talk about it.

00:16:24
Speaker 1: Sure does.

00:16:25
Speaker 3: Okay, So then Lloyd calls Diane. Her dad picks up, so Lloyd leaves a message. Diane then gets another call saying that she won a fellowship to study at a prestigious school in England. Ever heard of it?

00:16:40
Speaker 1: I love the vagueness of both the scholarship and the school. Yeah, we don't know what she's going to do or where she's going to do it, certainly not.

00:16:50
Speaker 3: Diane calls Lloyd back and he's like, go out with me, go out with me, come on, And she's like, I'm busy, and he's like, please, please please about a graduation party that's tonight and she's like, okay, you wore me down, I'll go.

00:17:06
Speaker 1: And I think that scene is interesting in a lot of ways because it's like she she later calls back to this scene being like, why did you go to the party with Lloyd? Because he made me laugh? I didn't see I didn't see her laugh a damn time. Nope, on that call, and I just you know, it's fine. It's like she wanted to go to a party, she wanted to get out of her you know, out of her comfort zone. So okay. But and it's very funny that she has to look up who he is in the yearbook. In the yearbook, pretty humiliating for him. But he does not he does not make her laugh.

00:17:42
Speaker 3: No, no, not on screen.

00:17:44
Speaker 1: And I do feel like that is representation of women pretending that men are funny when or not. Yeah, there is this incredible like I've done it. I've been guilty of this. Like if you're like, if you're a woman who dates men and and bless your heart, and you're like filming them like for an Instagram story or something, and they're doing something, and then I'm behind the iPhone eight doing this menacing laugh right, like a breathy laugh, pretending that someone's funny. It's disturbing she's I think that that was representation of that, whether Cameron Crowe realizes it or not. Cameron Crow probably thinks he's hilarious.

00:18:30
Speaker 3: I'm sure he does.

00:18:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure he does.

00:18:32
Speaker 3: But is he anyway? Okay, so he picks her up and they go to the party, and everyone there at the party loves Lloyd, and he is also made to be the key master. That's a thing. Diane meets a bunch of people. Lloyd and Diane do not hang out at the party at all.

00:18:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is my worst nightmare is going to a party thinking I have an ally and then being suddenly left out to dry. Yeah, but they seem fine with it whatever. I don't know.

00:19:05
Speaker 3: The party ends, Lloyd and Diane drive around all night. They're trying to give this kid a ride home who does not know where he lives. They finally drop him off, and then Diane is like, Wow, going to that party was awesome. I finally feel like I fit in And also you're a great date. But also you're basic.

00:19:26
Speaker 1: And I really liked that. That was She feels bad about it later, but I was like, that's kind of like the most metal thing Diane does in the entire movie. Yes, besides bust her father for tax fraud. That's a spoiler there, but but like that I really appreciated that because he was so into it. And then she was like, I don't know, maybe the parlance was slightly different then, but she was just like, you're boring, you fucking suck, and let's go out again.

00:19:57
Speaker 3: Fine by me.

00:19:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's dancing in the street. I think you know, if we if we Bouchemmy test a lot of the behavior of the John Cusack character. Yeah. Again, the Bouchemmy test being if Steve Bouschemmy age forty five was doing what the character in the movie is doing, is it weird or is it still romantic?

00:20:17
Speaker 3: Yeah?

00:20:19
Speaker 1: You Bouchemi does that. It gets it, doesn't it doesn't bear out in his favor.

00:20:23
Speaker 3: No, certainly not. Okay. So then Lloyd goes to drop her off and he's like, I want to see you as much as I can before you leave, and she's like, okay, call me. And then the next date is Lloyd going to Diane's for dinner with her dad and some family friends and they're like, Lloyd, what do you want to do with your future? And he's like, I want to be a kickboxer.

00:20:48
Speaker 1: But I is that like is that like nineteen eighty nine DJ or ah or like ticked. I've been making these TikTok videos and they're really gonna people are gonna watch them any day now, I think.

00:21:02
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I'm clear because they're all like okay. And then during dinner, a couple IRS agents show up accusing Diane's dad of tax evasion. So now Diane is very upset.

00:21:17
Speaker 1: I think Frasier's dad, you know, kind of takes it in the stride. He was like, excuse me, I'm having a fucking party. I'm like, can you say that? Can you say that to the I R S. You're like, I'm busy.

00:21:29
Speaker 3: I don't know. So now the family is like going through this turmoil. Diane is upset, but she and Lloyd keep hanging out, and we see her at work where she works at a nursing home that her dad owns. Put a pin in that.

00:21:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lloyd comes through. He shows them Cocoon on VHS. Yeah, that's one of my favorite scenes in the movie.

00:21:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really. He's like, I've never seen it, but you might like it. I don't know.

00:22:02
Speaker 1: It seems like the old folks love cocoon.

00:22:07
Speaker 3: So one day, Lloyd and Diana are getting coffee and she's like, I'm just like really overwhelmed and I don't think I can have a social life right now. And they agree to be friends, but then he's like friends with potential and we're like, that's not what she said.

00:22:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's really not what she said. But then he says it and she repeats it back to him because a man wrote this movie.

00:22:31
Speaker 3: Yes, And then there's a scene where he's teaching her how to drive her new car because women don't know how to drive. I don't know, and I mean, oh, because you don't know how to drive.

00:22:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, Unfortunately, don't awe me. I'm doing fine. I'm dressed like Barbie for no reason. Oh, now that's patronizing. There continue Why am I being so rude?

00:23:10
Speaker 3: I don't know. But they're in the car together and they're smooching. They're just going up, and then there's a montage of them kissing, and then they have sex in the backseat of a car that is near a body of water, and we're like, what is this? Jack and Rose in Titanic.

00:23:29
Speaker 1: She literally says you're trembling, yeah, yeah, or she doesn't say I mean, she says you're shaking. Because she's in she lives in nineteen eighty nine, not nineteen twelve. They don't use trembling anymore. But I was, yeah, I was. I was bowled over and how similar the scenes are. And we mutually agreed that even though this movie came out in eighty nine and Titanic came out in ninety seven, Cameron Crow is somehow ripping off Titanic. Yes, in this scene.

00:24:01
Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah. And also let's just put a pin in the similarities between Titanic and say anything. Maybe that'll come back later. I don't know, hmm. Okay. So there's a song that's playing in the car while they're having sex.

00:24:17
Speaker 1: Oh, you sing it in your Eyes. I'll do the drums.

00:24:24
Speaker 3: Uh No, number one I don't really know the words. And number two I'm a bad singer. Okay, but it's in your Eyes by Peter Gabriel. And she's like, listen to it. It's a really good song. And he's like, okay, I just busted and.

00:24:39
Speaker 1: That and that is always the answer to like why are you trembling? I'm like, wow, yeah, you were there. Like not to blame women, but like I think you know why I'm trembling.

00:24:58
Speaker 3: Uh okay. So Diane comes home and she's like, by the way, Dad, I just had said.

00:25:05
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Okay, we need to talk. Okay. I know that, Like I've seen this movie praise repeatedly for like wow, a positive like father daughter relationship for a good chunk of this movie. But I's just like, okay, im okay, Caitlyn, I'm gonna ask you a question. When you lost your virginity?

00:25:29
Speaker 3: Yeah?

00:25:30
Speaker 1: How long was it until your parents' news slash? Did they ever know?

00:25:35
Speaker 3: My mom never never found out about the instance of me losing my virginity, but she did found out find out when I was sexually active when I was in college, because she was like, you're getting a lot of UTI's.

00:25:51
Speaker 1: It's a great conversation starter. Go Lriie. I hope she didn't even I hope she didn't even say hello.

00:26:01
Speaker 3: She's like, I have a question to ask you. Are you sexually active? And I was like, yeah, did you?

00:26:10
Speaker 1: Did you Shaka?

00:26:16
Speaker 3: She was like, Fucky bro high fived me and.

00:26:25
Speaker 1: You chest bumped and then you guys exactly.

00:26:28
Speaker 3: We took like twelve shots of Jamison.

00:26:32
Speaker 1: I told so I was trying to like figure out my head, how weird is what happens in this movie because I told my mom before I lost my virginity that sometime in the near future I would hu but I needed help buying a plane ticket, and so she I needed to use I needed to use her credit card to buy a plane ticket so I could lose my virginity, and so she like it was like a hole. It was like, you know, an FBI operation for me to ultimately get a UTI as you were saying, and find out I was allergic to latex. But there it's I lived. But but what happens here? I feel like, whether it's like before after whatever. In this scene, Diane is coming home to her father, who is Fraser's father, yes, making her Fraser's sister. Before she has like taken a shower after losing her virginity, She's like, Dad, I have to tell you something. I fucked John Cusack. And then he, like to his credit, is like oh, because how do you react to that? He doesn't slust shame her. He doesn't say anything. He's just but he also seems to find it we doesn't she say anything? He didn't. I guess he doesn't, does he? He does not say anything. He instead stares at her saying with his eyes anything, which is, why are you telling me this before you've take in a shower. I'd like, I just feel like, you know, be as open with your parents as you're comfortable with. But if you've just if you've just fucked at any time, yeah, shower before talking to your dad. And maybe that's old fashioned of me. No, I think you want to walk in the house stinking of come But I just I was just I was beside myself and then and then that scene resolves by her being like, I feel so much better.

00:28:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, because she's like, I can say anything to you dad.

00:28:53
Speaker 1: It is, I mean, operates on my theory that the central weird romance in this movie is in fact between Rasier's dad and Diane.

00:29:02
Speaker 3: A dad and his daughter. His daughter is daughter.

00:29:06
Speaker 1: I just rewatched Mystic River and so I was like mainlining my daughter for like seven hours or however long. That movie is just Sean Penn swaling, My.

00:29:17
Speaker 3: God, why didn't you watch that?

00:29:22
Speaker 1: I was homesick, Fair popped it on.

00:29:28
Speaker 2: You know.

00:29:28
Speaker 3: The point is, yes, if you've just been dicked down in the backseat of a car, if you want to tell your dad about it, fine, I guess, but take a show.

00:29:38
Speaker 1: You gotta hit the showers, and your dad shouldn't be like I don't know again, but like I would be if I if I was sharing that information with my with my one father, I would not want him to be like thrilled, I don't know.

00:29:54
Speaker 2: It.

00:29:54
Speaker 1: That scene really is going to stick in my craw for a long time to come.

00:29:58
Speaker 3: Let's talk about it for they're in a bit. In the meantime, Diane has told her dad that she has had sex. Meanwhile, sniffing the air, He's like, oh growth. Meanwhile, Lloyd's friends find out that he had sex, and his friend Corey is like, you have to do something really romantic for Diane now, So he writes her a letter, pouring his heart out to her.

00:30:27
Speaker 1: Again an incredible moment because Corey reads the letter. It's two sentences long. I love Corey. I think is like my favorite character in the movie, and we'll talk about her. I really adore her. But her function in most scenes is to tell Lloyd he is awesome. Yeah, tell him he's the most amazing person to ever be born. And she reads this bogus letter he's written where it's like, Hi, Diane, you are pretty I love you yeah, and loves Lloyd. She's like, oh my god, She's like, okay Shakespeare and yeah, she's just like her function is to gaslod up when he's being you know, kind of just like.

00:31:12
Speaker 3: A guy exactly. Okay. So he sends off this letter, but it's not long before Diane leaves for England to go to uh school that we don't.

00:31:24
Speaker 1: Leave to city, England to go to school subject.

00:31:29
Speaker 3: And so she's confused about what to do because she loves Lloyd, but she decides to break up with him, and she gives him a pen as a parting gift.

00:31:40
Speaker 1: She's a stone cold, which is also her dad's idea. Yes, the breakup also her dad's idea.

00:31:49
Speaker 3: Here's a little fun little story that relates back to the person I lost my virginity with in high school, which is like.

00:31:57
Speaker 1: Government name gut No King.

00:32:00
Speaker 3: So I broke up with him at some point and you got brave of me, and he was really heartbroken about it. And I was so cold because he sent me this like essay that he had to write for English class and it was about how he was so in love with me and he he cheated on me back when I believed that monogamy was a thing. Anyway.

00:32:37
Speaker 1: Wait, now give me his government anyway.

00:32:41
Speaker 3: So he sent me this letter and I proofread it, made a bunch of like red pen marks, and I'm sent.

00:32:48
Speaker 1: It back.

00:32:53
Speaker 3: Brutal.

00:32:54
Speaker 1: That's incredible. Yeah, did you return it to him?

00:32:58
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I said, here, we're all of you are errors and grammar and spelling.

00:33:05
Speaker 1: That's the coolest thing I've ever heard in my life. That's really exciting. Thank you, Thank you very mucham. Yes, I got broke. I got the guy. I lost my Virginia too, broke up with me because I was taking up the time he needed to practice the saxophone. So I guess you know, it takes all kinds.

00:33:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So Diane has broken up with Lloyd. She is upset about it. He's devastated. He's driving around in the rain, he's trying to make sense of things. He's kind of recording a podcast at one point he is, and then he's like, well, let's see what some men have to say about this. But they give him bad advice on how to deal with that.

00:33:51
Speaker 1: Including a jump scared Jeremy Piven, Oh, Jeremy Piven in like a fedora, being like women are bitches, and you're like, whoa, okay, very scary. Yeah, so he is.

00:34:04
Speaker 3: You know, he's driving around and having feelings. He tries to call Diane several times. He's leaving messages, and then we get the iconic scene where he goes to her house. He stands outside the window with the stereo over his head playing in your Eyes, which is the sign Blade when they were having Sang and his Avis one hundred us room. And then you watch the scene and you're like, she doesn't even get out of bed, she just stays in bed. He just stands there for a while.

00:34:40
Speaker 1: Cut to inspiring hey militia of creepy teenage boys to be.

00:34:47
Speaker 3: Like, oh, just show up, show up, She'll stay the play loud music that's waking up the neighbors.

00:34:57
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so nimbi vibes.

00:35:01
Speaker 3: Then we cut to Diane going to see this IRS guy who tells her that they have proof that her dad has been stealing money four years from people at the nursing home that he runs. So Diane goes home. She snoops around her dad's stuff and finds a huge stash of cash.

00:35:22
Speaker 1: He thought he was going to fool the Valedictorian mistake number one. She also at no point takes off her diamond ring, even though it's clear that her diamond ring was purchased with dead people money.

00:35:36
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:35:37
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:35:38
Speaker 3: So she confronts her dad, being like, you're a liar and a thief and he's like, what's the big deal? I did this for you.

00:35:45
Speaker 1: It's like, Fraser gets a lot of residuals. We'll make up for it. It's fine.

00:35:51
Speaker 3: So she storms out, and then she goes to the gym where Lloyd is trying to have a kickboxing career, and she's like I want you, I need you, I love you, and he's like, okay, cool.

00:36:05
Speaker 1: I really like that scene. It felt like very kind of close to authentic of like how weird teenage doomed relationships work, where he's like, are you saying this because you want me or because you want someone? And then he like thinks about it for a second and is like, I don't want to know the answer to that question. Can we have sex again? And you're like, you know that is the referee response.

00:36:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes. So then h Frazier's daddy gets sent to jail, Lloyd pays him a visit to be like, by the way, I'm going to England with your daughter and the thing that I want to do for a living is be her boyfriend.

00:36:51
Speaker 1: Okay, so you know, let him cook because that's a like, that's the idea of someone whose job it is to be my boy boyfriend is incredible and there are no benefits to it.

00:37:04
Speaker 3: No, you do not get dental.

00:37:06
Speaker 1: No, there's no dental for boyfriend. But I was like, all right, cool, good for him.

00:37:11
Speaker 3: Right, And then Diane shows up to the prison yard and she gives her dad the pen that he had that she had originally given to Lloyd.

00:37:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, because like Lloyd, she's in love with her dad. This scene also plays out very romantically and breakup scene. Yeah, and Lloyd is like on the sidelines being like nice, she broke up with her dad and now we can be together.

00:37:43
Speaker 3: And then she and Lloyd go to England. There's a scene where they're in the plane. She's a nervous flyer, but he's like, don't worry, babe, I'll keep you safe ding the end.

00:37:54
Speaker 1: The end and not say anything there.

00:37:58
Speaker 3: Thank Shall we discuss, let's discuss, shall let's let's discuss. Should we start with I don't know Diane and Lloyd in their relationship.

00:38:19
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so I okay with Diane. I is interesting watching this movie because I feel like the way that it's written, because I hadn't seen it, and based on all of the marketing, based on like the most famous image from the movie and all this stuff, you're led to believe that like Lloyd is the you know, undisputed protagonist of this movie. But like, I feel like it is pretty clearly Diane and the way of like who has the arc, who are we spending the most time with, whose feelings changed the most over the course of the movie, Like Lloyd is pretty like consistent throughout the Like I don't think that he I mean, I think he does grow and change a little bit. But like Diane's the one who's really like going through it the entire movie, and she's not, like I think that the you know, the most famous images from these movies, like you, she's not in it. And it feels like a weird example of how it's it's not necessarily a fault of the movie itself that Diane is kind of sidelined in the way this movie is remembered, but the way that the marketing is, and the way that it's publicly remembered doesn't include kind of the most impactful character.

00:39:34
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it treats Lloyd as if he's the protagonist, and I think I wonder if that has anything to do with like John Cussett going on to have a more substantial career, the way the way that like many male actors are like you get to have a career because men are actually written parts in movies and women aren't so much, so it's harder for them to become like notable actors.

00:39:59
Speaker 1: But like it's frustrating because Diane does have like an interest. I think she's an interesting character, and I think it is just more what is focused on That feels weird because there's a lot of interesting stuff with Diane. I feel like she and I guess I don't. I don't fully think I know how aware the writing of the movie is of this, But it feels like Diane is this like character. She's like a like brilliant young woman who and the two main men in her life are trying to like live their lives through her by their own rules, and that is like the main thing that she is struggling with throughout the movie. Is like she's with her dad. She wants to you know, she loves him, she wants to make him happy, she wants to meet his expectations, but it doesn't quite match. And then with Lloyd, she's repeatedly trying to set boundaries with him. Uh and you know, timmy Fair, it does seem like she wants to be around him and is doing what she things she needs to do, but it's like she's just struggling with the expectations of men she cares about for the entire movie, which is an interesting premise, but it like it just kind of bears out in this weird way.

00:41:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, in a way that I don't find very satisfying. Yeah, I as far as like teen romance movies go, because the bar is Solow and some of them are very predicated on an extremely scary and predatory you know, lie or bet or some kind of just like stalker situation. This one feels on the less problematic side. Yeah, that's saying something because it's still like, well, he's not respecting her boundaries a lot of the time, and he keeps kind of like being like, well, yeah, you just said that you don't want a social life, and that you just want to be friends, but what if we kiss a bunch and then have sex in the back of a car?

00:41:55
Speaker 1: Right? I agree that it was like Lloyd is not the most respectful Boundaries character ever, but it also felt like he is, Like it at least felt reflective of reality enough, and like I remember having teenage interactions like that and Diane. I don't know, I just feel like Diane kind of gets lost in the shuffle sometimes in a way that's frustrating. And then for me, like for teen romance, it's really frustrating that Lloyd is not a one hundred year old vampire, and so it's already kind of like, so, why would I watch this? I don't understand. Did that occur to you at any point? He wasn't really a member of the Cullen family, I would say, yeah, And so it is kind of challenging to get invested in that romance.

00:42:45
Speaker 3: So why even set the movie in Washington States?

00:42:48
Speaker 1: Fucking exactly, don't waste my time. If it's in Washington State, I'm assuming there is a level of immortality. There's simply one of the characters. And I was really disappointed that it did seem like they were you know both Mortal Mortal. Yeah, and so that was that was a bummer, but but yeah, I mean it's it's I think Diana is like a really interesting character, but the yeah, the way she's treated by the story is kind of I don't know, like it's disappointing. She doesn't have any friends to bounce stuff off of. Not that that doesn't happen in high school, but I think like for the sake of the movie, it would have been I think helpful for the audience and good for just developing a character to have her have someone outside of these two men in her life. Yeah, to get an idea of who she is. It feels like Princess. Like I feel like we talk about Princess Leiah in the terms in terms of that where it's like, here's this really interesting lead character who is a woman, but we're only going to give her men to talk to. We're not going to give her an interior life outside of her really reationship to these men for reasons unclear.

00:44:04
Speaker 3: Right, And then the movie does kind of address the fact that she does she hasn't made any friends in high school and it's because she sort of like secluded herself or she didn't put herself out there, and this party was like her first chance to meet people, and now she finally feels like she like some people know her. But then after she comes to that realization or she has kind of like taken herself out of her comfort zone, she proceeds to then get to know exactly one person and it's a guy who's just extremely persistent at her.

00:44:40
Speaker 1: Right. Well, that was I felt like there was promise, and we have exactly because I think that in Lloyd's I mean, in spite of the fact that if like Lloyd has less of an ARC, we know more people in his life and in his circle. We know his sister, who is his actual sister, Constance. I think her name is played by John Cusack. We know his best friend Corey, we know his other friend DC. We know a number of people in his life, and he mostly has close relationships friendship family wise with women. But yeah, interm and we get one scene between Lloyd's best friend Corey and Diane that I felt like was really cool and promising of like, oh, maybe they will become friends and that would be a way to bring her closer to Lloyd if you know, they become friends. But The only thing that happens in that scene is like, is Corey does the function of her character, which is to be like, wow, wouldn't you say that Lloyd is like the most epic awesome guy in the world. And Diane's like, hmm, you're right about that, and then like that's that's the only scene we get them together, which sucks because it's like it's seeing like two interesting women just pass like ships in the night, you know, on to more boring plot points and you're like, no, stay talk about your feelings on Roe v. Wade, you know, like give me something, but they give me nothing.

00:46:06
Speaker 3: They don't.

00:46:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's disappointing.

00:46:09
Speaker 3: Yes, so I guess where I land on. It is the romance. We've seen worse examples in teen rom coms. But like you said, it's just her. It is Diane's story. She feels like the protagonist to me, but it's all about these men who are just kind of like inserting themselves in her life or just like inserting their expectations in her life, and she doesn't really challenge them very much, and she's just like, yep, all allow it.

00:46:41
Speaker 1: Well, it's not even I would I would say that she does challenge it at different points, but she is like doesn't successfully push out of it right in a way that does. The script doesn't feel fully aware of, like it's it's we're made to believe that like this ending for Diane is kind of the best case scenario when there I feel like are of opportunities for her to push back more, make connections with other people, and I don't know, I just feel like there were more interesting things. And then also watching the relationship, I also think the most interesting relationship in the movie also does not involve Lloyd. I think the most interesting relationship is I know, we've like talked a lot of shit about it because he is trying to marry her. But like Diane and her father's dynamic is really interesting, and I feel like there is like a really I don't know, I can't think of a lot of I mean, except the entire series of Succession. I can't think of like, I mean, there's not a lot of stories about like a daughter getting to know like who idolized as a parent, having that illusion completely shattered and having to deal with that, Like that's a really interesting thing to explore, especially because like Diane has really dictated the way that she has lived and we know this about her because she says it to Lloyd at seven eleven in which incredible detail. I'm like, did they get stuff off the rollers? Like? When did they get a white claw? Did white claw exist? They're all these things right, Yeah, I had a lot of questions. They left seven eleven, but they weren't holding a delicious snack. That was interesting. Yeah, I went to seven eleven the other night and brag, thank you, I was on a date. It's like, I need to make a stop to get candy corn in a buffalo roller.

00:48:33
Speaker 3: And sorry, that came up involuntarily.

00:48:43
Speaker 1: I just wanted to know what their order was there, And that is my biggest problem with the movie.

00:48:49
Speaker 3: But the focus is more on well, what the thing you're about to say? But then also the parking lot moment where he was just like, watch out, there's glass and he just kind of kicks it out of the way. She walks around it, and then later in the movie she's like, the reason I know that he's such a good guy is that he didn't let me step in glass.

00:49:13
Speaker 1: That that was so okay.

00:49:16
Speaker 3: Uh.

00:49:17
Speaker 1: Those scenes are so fun to watch because they are like nonsensical and you can just imagine like Cameron Crow at his like computer being like, yes, this is so good, like this is what women require. He really thought he was he was he was doing something there. I just and it's like, I mean, truly the old A great cinematic example of accepting crumbs is like, Wow, that guy didn't want me to step on glass. I could see, like I better let him follow me around like just a real a real bummer. But yeah, I mean, I think ultimate the more interesting relationship, if if this movie absolutely has to choose, a relationship between Diane and a man in her life is the relationship with her dad, because in that same scene, she explains to Lloyd that, like, it seems like part of the reason she feels so connected to her dad is because she was put in this through this horrible custody battle where she had to choose which parent to live with. She chose to live with her dad, she says, because it was easier. We're not given any information, but I don't know. Maybe she wanted to be able to see Frasier. She's like, she.

00:50:36
Speaker 3: Was like it felt like the safe choice. We don't know exactly what she means by that, but that's that's the only information we have.

00:50:42
Speaker 1: But it's like she's very like at a base lettl very invested in making her relationship with her dad work, which he seems to, you know, want he wants to marry her. But like examining that felt more interesting to me than this teenage romance. It just but I don't know. And then you get a scene, one scene with Diane and her mother and that scenms very What did you make of that scene? Because to me, that was another scene of like Cameron Crow sitting in a room probably with his spouse, not asking her what women might talk about.

00:51:25
Speaker 3: This is one of the scenes I listed under the does the movie past the Bechdel Test column? Yeah, because there are a handful of interactions with women in the movie, and one of them is this scene where Diane is talking to her mom. Here's how it goes. They are talking about her dad being a criminal, and then the mom is like, no, I'd rather talk about you. I don't even know if you've got a young man in your life, and Diane and Cameron Crow's like yeah. Diane says, what's more important than what's going on with dad? And then her mom replies if we could just talk about boys, everything would be so much easier.

00:52:08
Speaker 1: And you're like, well, that's back to back. There's this scene is not going anywhere, and then the.

00:52:14
Speaker 3: Mom's new husband, I forget his name, he shows up and then oh, I mean uh huh, and then he he's like about to show up, so they start talking about him, and then he shows up and cut to the next scene. So I didn't like it, is what I'm saying.

00:52:34
Speaker 1: No, And it's that's especially frustrating because that relationship like never comes back, which is bizarre because the reason that that scene happens is because Diane is going to her mom to say, hey, dad is getting investigated by the I r S. If the I r S comes to your door, please say something nice about him, like and she's and Diane like I and I really like I feel for her in that because she's very invested in like protecting her father. She very much believes he is innocent, and so she's like and that's part of why she like originally breaks off the relationship with Lloyd is because she's like, I'm kind of like really focused on my dad not going to white collar jail right now. Yeah, And so it's like she's really spending a lot of time trying to protect him, and we know that, Like, I mean, I don't know how much the mom would know about what's going on, but it seems like it would be relevant to Diane's mother that Fraser's dad goes to jail. Yeah, but she never comes back and we never get any closure on like where that relationship was left, or like any which is frustrating if we are viewing Diane as like the protagonist of the movie, but it just like leaves all of these loose threads in favor of you know, watching Lloyd, I don't know, turn in a circle. What does he even do?

00:53:57
Speaker 3: Well, he's kicking and he's punching, doing he kicks.

00:54:03
Speaker 1: Well, let's let's talk about Lloyd.

00:54:05
Speaker 3: Sorry, Well, first I spent the past like two minutes trying to is it okay? Which Durst is it? Is it Robert Robert.

00:54:13
Speaker 1: Not Fred okay? So I'm always happy to answer that question.

00:54:20
Speaker 3: So basically, when when Diane is like, my dad innocent, it's like how you respond to Robert first, Okay, I was trying to make that joke. It has come and gone.

00:54:30
Speaker 1: It's anyway, if there's no point in arguing Robert Durst is innocent anymore, because not only is he dead, he was guilty. So just kind of a challenging time for me.

00:54:41
Speaker 3: Sorry, but I found that the relationship with her dad and just the dad character in general. His name is James, right, Jim James Court, James.

00:54:54
Speaker 1: I love that your last name is Court and then he goes to jail. That's that's iconic writing. That's some Larry gee Lee level naming of a character. I liked it.

00:55:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, I found him to be maybe one of the most nuanced characters in the movie because I guess he just defies a lot of just stereotypes when it comes to like dad characters of a teen girl of that era. We already talked about the scene where she comes home after having sex for the first time with Lloyd. He is like, where were you? You didn't call, but he's like, like he's in love with her. He's like, I want to make sure you're safe, and then he goes he like goes on to just explain, you know, I care about your safety. It doesn't matter what you were doing. And then she says, like, I was having sex, Dad, and he's like, I okay.

00:55:52
Speaker 1: I would just be like, all right, can we talk about this like after you like sleep, but they have to talk about it now because it's a movie.

00:56:00
Speaker 3: And she's like, I'm just so eager to say anything to you. A yay. But I guess, you know, a typical dad character in a movie like this would have a very like slut shamey response and try to like exert all of.

00:56:16
Speaker 1: That either either a slut shamey response or like where is he? I'm gonna kill him?

00:56:21
Speaker 3: That's my thune, you know exactly.

00:56:24
Speaker 1: I just watched mister Grimver. That's what he does.

00:56:28
Speaker 3: So he doesn't do that. He's just mostly concerned about her safety because she doesn't she didn't call like she always calls, right. And then there's a later scene that also his behavior surprised me where she is saying that she's not sure if she should take this fellowship in England after all, and I will say, I guess going back to the relationship between her and Lloyd, I was because I didn't really remember how this movie pans out, and I was worried as I was watching it this time that she would be like, never mind, I don't need to go to England. I've got my professional boyfriend who professionally wants to be my boyfriend and.

00:57:07
Speaker 1: I and as that is not a paying position, I will suppose I will have to support him in his endeavor to be around.

00:57:16
Speaker 3: So I was really worried that like she was not going to take the opportunity, and like pursuer education, she does do it. He tags along, which you know, you can feel about any which way, but I was happy that at least she like went through with her plans. Yeah, in any case, So she's like, I don't know if I should go to.

00:57:38
Speaker 1: School, college, school, university to study question mark, Oh my god, which again is like that's a really easy detail to give and we were not given it. And I feel like that if it was Lloyd, we would know what he was studying and what he was interested in, because we know that he wants to be a kickboxer, even though that has no relevance to fucking anything. Diane's like, you know, ambitions have a lot to do with the movie, and we don't know what they actually are, right, Yeah, I.

00:58:08
Speaker 3: Wonder if like Oxford University read it was like originally that in the script and then they're like, don't besmircharge.

00:58:17
Speaker 1: Your fucking mouth crow. That would be really funny. That would be such a weird, uh weird antagonistic thing to do in any case, Okay, I don't like fast times at Ridgemont High.

00:58:32
Speaker 3: So she's saying she's not sure if she should go to England, and she does kind of it seems like she's implying, oh, maybe also one of the reasons I don't want to go not only are you under criminal investigation, dad, but also I love this guy. And then when he finds that out, when when her dad realizes that she loves him, he kind of pivots because prior to that he was like, oh, he's not good enough for you. He's always just kicking and punching, and you're too smart for him. And then which is true, to be fair, true, But then he like when she says I love him, he respects the gravity of the situation, He respects her feelings. He doesn't like try to question her feelings. He is like, oh, wow, maybe I'm being like really selfish here, Why am I fixated on this? Like I owe you an apology, he says.

00:59:31
Speaker 1: But then the one sentence we never hear it's amazing.

00:59:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, but and then a few minutes later he turns out to be embezzling money from a very vulnerable group of people. So so it's complicated. You know, some of history's greatest monsters were pretty decent parents. And Fraser's dad, well, Fraser's dad was a great dad, but he was a retired Seattle So you know, they're this is a sort of a through line. Thank you for your heads for I was proud of making that connection as well.

01:00:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, I felt like it was a unique father daughter relationship. But again, I don't know, I don't know. I feel like coding it as romantic was so avoidable, and I'm like, not even joking because like down to post production whoever, I don't know off the top of my head, who can pose the music? But what the fuck were they thinking, like when they were like all right, all right, father, father, all right, we're gonna need something a little sexy. Why like some sort of like longing romanticizing?

01:00:52
Speaker 3: The blocking is often weird, just the writing choice to make her I'm sorry the way of your dad's have given you a diamond ring.

01:01:01
Speaker 1: No, if your dad is giving you a diamond ring, like you have to consider he could have been embezzling money from old people. I think, I hope this is a wake up call for anyone in this room was received a diamond ring from their father. It's weird. It's weird.

01:01:20
Speaker 3: Weird choices were made all around. Let's talk about Lloyd really quick, Okay.

01:01:24
Speaker 1: I Lloyd is an interesting character to be because I do think that like I don't know, like Lloyd and this movie have been through so many rounds of critical appraisal, or I think this movie was pretty beloved when it came out. I think Lloyd does sort of defy a number of common rom com stereotypes with a male lead, where like you're saying, there's no bet, there's no central lie, but he still is pushy and still you know, push past a lot of Diane's boundaries and is rewarded for that behavior. And then on the other hand, you have What I like about Lloyd is the fact that something we I think very rarely see in teen movies, which is that he has a close friend who is a woman who he is not. Like there's no subtext of like, yeah, she's in love with me, or I even in love with her, Like Corey is his closest friend. And she's an interesting character in her own right, but like there is no like it presents the simple truth that men and women can be friends. Yeah, in a way that is like not you know, like longing coated or that there's not this like deep heterosexual you know, physical pain that comes with them being around each other. And then on top of that that, like when that friendship is presented to Diane, she's like, that's it's nice to meet your friend versus like meeting that with extreme jealousy orich. Just like all these tropes we very ordinarily see where it just seems like Lloyd is a male character who connects with women easier, which is nice, and that is like not presented as a bad thing. And I also like how Lloyd is from. Like Lloyd's parents aren't really around. They're in the military in Germany, and you're like, well, I don't like this sounds like that there.

01:03:31
Speaker 3: Right after the fall of the Berlin.

01:03:34
Speaker 1: Wall, and then their politics are not made clear, but they're in the military in Germany in the eighties, and uh so they're you know, out there, and so like Floyd and his sister there there. You know, Floyd's sister is a single mom, uh, there's no judgment passed on that. I think my main issue is that they don't let her be a character at all. She's just like vaguely like shrill coded to do Lloyd. In the first she's like, why can't you be an uncle and not a plane mate? And he's like, you used to be fun. Yeah, But but it was like he has like a I think, like kind of like a latch key kid kind of upbringing where his parents weren't really around, and I feel like those characters are very often portrayed to be maladjusted and not people to be around, and I like that Lloyd sort of presents that upbringing in a way that it's like he's generally a thoughtful person and I don't know, like class wise and just upbringing wise, it's like not something I was used to seeing. Sure, So I don't know Lloyd. Lloyd was hidden miss for me, but I do I was rooting for him, especially when he something is so vulnerable about whipping a VHS copy of Cocoon, where I was like, oh, he's really going for it. Yeah, he doesn't know what he's doing, but he wants to do something.

01:05:05
Speaker 3: And this is after and we have to wrap up very soon. But this is after Diane has challenged him for his ageist beliefs. Yes, and she's like literally calls him out with that exact language. She's like, you're being agist, and he says his ass down and then and then he was like right, He's like, wow, you're really making me reconsider and maybe I shouldn't be agist. And it's not clear if he actually is like changing his mind about this or if he just wants to bust.

01:05:36
Speaker 1: Right. It's October and busted makes you feel good, Uh, precisely. But but I mean, unfortunately, with due respect to men in the room, I feel like, you know, it is a fake it til you make it situation where it's like I will make you repeat my politics back to me until you somehow believe it.

01:05:55
Speaker 3: And uh uh huh.

01:05:58
Speaker 1: And you know it's that's how I wear people down, yeah, by talking about housing justice until they believe in it. And that's how I've weaponized my vagina for good. The other thing I like about Lloyd and I know we have to move on, is there is a critical scene where Lloyd is so he, like you mentioned, he is recording a podcast. He's driving around in his car, recording his thoughts on a cassette player for Corey, for his friend. He's recording a podcast for an audience of one. It is like kind of true crimey where he's like, I'm in the streets and you're like, oh my god, I know people who sound like not know. I've listened to podcasts like that that the people are millionaires for saying equally fucking nothing. You know, I'm in the streets. It's duck out.

01:06:56
Speaker 3: Like he said something like the rain on my car is APPTI. We're like, well, brilliant metaphor, sir.

01:07:06
Speaker 1: When you think about it, I am I do him christ like go off king. But when he is doing that, yeah, like you you alluded to this in the recap. But he says like, maybe I should talk to more men. Everyone in my life is a woman, and you're like, well that's going to be a non starter, but let's see what happens and he But the movie bears that out where it's like he goes to this group of like guys is like high schools with any group of guys, Jeremy Piven is there. If you're going to go meet up with some guys, he'll be there and he'll be wearing a little hat. But the list, I know, we were both ready to get down as we were watching it together because, uh, you know, he goes to this group of men. They're hanging out at a gas station talking shit about women, which which is beautiful, beautiful, right. One says you can't trust them. They spend your money and they tell your friends everything. And I'm like, and is that a bad thing there? All you gotta do is find a girl that looks just like her nailer and then dumper. You know what's the mistake. You should have dumped her first. That's Jeremy Piven. Diane Cord is a show pony. You need a stallion man. Literally, Jeremy Piven objectifying women. We hate to see it. But Lloyd does not respond to this by being radicalized by these like gas station losers ideas. He instead challenges it and he's like, oh, that's interesting that you have all these thoughts about women when women aren't hanging out with you and you are at a gas station at night, and that's awesome. I mean, like that exchange is really cool. And then and then he responds and then like after realizing that talking to men his age is a non starter and that they hate women and don't understand why he goes back to his friends who are women and ask them for advice, and like, I liked that. I thought that was cool.

01:09:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I you know, he does blame Corey for Diane breaking up with him. Basically, she's like, I hang out with too many women and it's your vote, Corey.

01:09:21
Speaker 1: This is your podcast for You'm yelling at you.

01:09:26
Speaker 3: But I do like that the movie recognizes that all the advice that the men give him is terrible advice, and that yes, that Lloyd openly challenges.

01:09:35
Speaker 1: Them absolutely, And then, uh, because we do have drap up Corey, we'll we'll talk more about her. We'll do we'll record more about her in a later time. But Corey is the fucking coolest character in the movie. Do we have any Corey heads in the house. Okay, she's the best. I also feel like she's a very like, uniquely nineteen eighty nine character where she is Lloyd's best friend and she I feel like, I was like, oh, the character closest to me in high school is Corey, where she has had her heart broken by the same loser repeatedly and is writing horrible poetry about it, and like that is a very recognizable thing. I think that like we'll sort of talk about later on about like the way it's presented. But I just I really liked her, and I felt like we were given some crumbs on how she like on her her personal stuff towards the beginning of the movie, where it's like there is this one guy who later appears at a gas station being a misogynist, so huge loss for her, but like this this fucking loser who she's written sixty five songs about, and who among us you know that, Like she eventually kind of cuts loose because she realizes that like he's a loser and a liar, and like I thought that was a really interesting start to her care But then the remainder of the movie, she mainly shows up to tell Lloyd various plot points mm hmmm, and to tell him he's cool. Yeah, and that's kind of the most we get from her after like the thirty minute mark.

01:11:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's true, very frustrating.

01:11:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. The last thing I wanted to say is just the production of this movie. It is like an interesting movie production wise, but I wanted to just quickly shout out one of the main producers of this movie, Polly Platt. We've got a picture of her here, let's get it. This is She's really cool. I would if you haven't listened to the season of you must remember this about Polly Platt, I would highly highly recommend it. It's so cool. Give it up for her. She is. She had a fucking incredible life, like she I mean, she was done a huge disservice by show business. But this movie came out during this sort of second surge in her career where she was working with James L. Brooks. She worked on this movie, she basically discovered Cameron Crowe and Wes Anderson, so you're welcome if those are guys you like. She also, iconically for everyone, discovered The Simpsons and handed it off to James L. Brooks, So we wouldn't have the Simpsons without Polly Platt. She's fucking cool. And she also appears in a cameo in this movie, which is the next slide. You can see that she is in the graduation scene, so there she is. So yay Polly. And we'll link to Karina Longworth's season about her when we release this episode. But Katelin. Yes, does this movie pass the Bechdel test?

01:12:42
Speaker 3: I think maybe on a small technicality, but I would say spiritually no.

01:12:47
Speaker 1: Spiritually no, But it does pass between DC and it's not a very impactful exchange. But between DC and Corey there is an exchange in the record store where it be the large context of the conversation is that Diane and Lloyd had sex. Yes, which is, you know, not passing the backful test whatsoever.

01:13:08
Speaker 3: P and V.

01:13:09
Speaker 1: It doesn't pass. But Corey's talking over DC, and DC is like, you never let me talk about anything. You never let me speak. And Corey's like, oh, I'm sorry, what do you want to say? And DC is like, well, I forget. And that was impactful to me. Yes, that passes to me. I can relate to that. I've had many interactions like that, demanding yeah, demanding a platform and then being like, oh, I have nothing to contribute.

01:13:39
Speaker 3: But generally, the few times that women do interact in this movie, they are usually talking about Lloyd, they are talking about Frasier's dad, They're talking about some other guy.

01:13:52
Speaker 1: It's particularly this is disgusting, Joe, this is it's particularly frustrating. In the conversation between Diane and her mom where there is potential to talk about most anything, and they aggressively only talk about men.

01:14:07
Speaker 3: Right, Or the scene the one interaction between Corey and Diane where they talk about Corey's ex boyfriend Joe for a while and then Lloyd.

01:14:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what about the most important metric to ever exist, which is the Bechdel cast nipple scale?

01:14:21
Speaker 3: Yes, a zero to five nipples based on sound. Examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I think I'll give this movie. I would say two nipples. I think someone gasped. Is that what happens?

01:14:34
Speaker 1: When you guys listen to this, They're like, they're like, Oh, they're so wrong for that.

01:14:40
Speaker 3: How could they were you expecting me to say higher or lower? I made a mistake and this happens.

01:14:48
Speaker 1: Oh my god, No, this happens everything. This is why like live shows are nuclear for us, because if I look at you the wrong way, you're like, no.

01:15:01
Speaker 3: God, no, Well here's my reasoning. Yeah, sounds familiar, And I'm judging this on nineteen eighty nine standards, and it's like slightly less problematic than teen rom coms that came out ten years later.

01:15:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, there's that the.

01:15:25
Speaker 3: Father daughter relationship, while it is rife with a weird, possibly romantic tension. I do I know two is wrong. I'll go down to one and a half.

01:15:42
Speaker 1: Stop contributing. We'll never leave. Yeah, we got no, it should be one point like six four.

01:15:52
Speaker 3: Just because we have to wrap up. I will simply say one and a half nipples, and I give one to what's her name Antigony.

01:16:02
Speaker 1: What? Oh my oh wait, I get it, I.

01:16:06
Speaker 3: Got it, sorry, Iony.

01:16:11
Speaker 1: Antagony. Okay, like this is.

01:16:27
Speaker 3: We gotta go, we gotta go. Mm hmmm, so Iony Sky. And then my half nipple goes to Lily Taylor, who plays Corey An Tikeny.

01:16:41
Speaker 1: I can't. I'm gonna give this. Yeah, I'll give it. I'll give it, like, I don't know, one and a half, maybe even a little one point two five something like that. I think that. Yeah, Like, there are things that this movie is I need to stop looking scared.

01:16:54
Speaker 3: Uh.

01:16:55
Speaker 1: There are there are ways that this movie is avoiding a lot of troopes that we see in the same era and for decades after. But it is still doing you know, the pushy thing. It's still doing that, giving us an interesting central woman who is not allowed to know other women or care about other women. And I truly I do think that like the writing of the father daughter relationship being so bizarrely romantic, is just a demonstration that the writer does not know how to write a healthy relationship between men and women, and I find that weird. It's also I mean, I mean, it's nineteen eighty nine, so but it's like it's it's not an inclusive movie whatsoever. It's very much like a movie in the white middle class in Seattle. There's no you know, attempted inclusion in any way, shape or for him. It's just, you know, it's it's a really white hetero movie. And I'm going to give it. I guess I'll give it one point two five and I'm giving them giving it all to Antagony Beautiful.

01:18:03
Speaker 3: Well that's our show.

01:18:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for coming.

01:18:08
Speaker 3: Oh okay, that was the show. Thank you again to Curious Comedy Theater, to Stacy who runs the venue, to all the staff there, and to the All Jane Comedy Festival, which this was the final All Jane Comedy Festival. However, it was something that I was aware of since I started comedy as just one of the few festival spaces that was reserved specifically for women and fems. It was very welcoming and cool, and it felt it was an honor to do the festival and it's a testament to stacy. So indeed, you can't go now, but you really missed out. It was cool. You can't go to the festival, but you can still go to Curious Comedy Theater, So check them out if you're ever in Portland or if you live in or nearby. And also just thanks to everyone who came out to the show, who watched the live stream, and then once again you can grab on demand tickets. You'll see some of that extra stuff that we cut out of the audio only episode.

01:19:15
Speaker 1: I think some of our best fits.

01:19:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, some really good stuff.

01:19:19
Speaker 1: One of our best on stage bits, you'll want to see it.

01:19:22
Speaker 3: A few things that we didn't get to in the live show really quickly. I would be remiss not to mention the guidance counselor showing up to the high school party.

01:19:34
Speaker 1: Yes, why a trope we still have not gotten rid of today. As recently as Books Smart, we still had teachers showing up to the party uncritically. It is so fucking bizarre. And also, I mean, to that point not really fun live show talk, but I feel like really encourages an unhealthy relationship between teachers and students. That kid, you know, sort of normalized grooming tactics. So yeah, I don't know the teacher at my high school that went to parties was a groomer.

01:20:10
Speaker 3: Yikes.

01:20:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, teachers don't go to student parties if they're regular.

01:20:16
Speaker 3: Yes, And then we touched on this in the episode, but I feel like it might be worth just saying a little further. The gals in the movie, Uh, you know, We've got Corey played by Lily Taylor. She's Lloyd's best friend, mostly just characterized by being obsessed with Lloyd and also being obsessed with the guy who broke her heart. She plays all those songs that she's written on the guitar about him.

01:20:51
Speaker 1: And I also, I mean I think that, yeah, speaking to Corey's character, I think that a lot of people, I mean, at least I was seeing just like what's been written about this movie and what our audience said after the episode was that a lot of people saw themselves in Corey. And also like to the point where it's like we would have even more people would have seen themselves in Corey if she had been given a proper arc, because I love like we were talked like I think we talked about during the show, like it is cool that she and Lloyd have a truly platonic friendship between a man and a woman, something we never ever ever get to see without it being like will they or won't they? It never is like she I mean, it is an issue that her defining character trait is that she thinks Lloyd is a great guy. But I do think it's cool that they both really like and respect each other and it's a friendship and it like and it's not presented as a threat or a will there won't they? Or something that you know, even today is still a pretty rare dynamic to see in movies. But I think that, like again, we just have the case with Corey because I like Corey's character a lot, but we only see her really in spite of the fact that if like we see her mostly talking to women, she exists mostly in relations to men. Because I have no issue with like writing torrid shitty poetry about a horrible relationship, like you know, most people have done it at some point. Sure, sure, but for that to be like the only thing we get to know about her, when it would it would have been so easy to build out a friendship between her and Diana, between you know her and and DC or like you know people we see her with, but we don't know what the friendship dynamic is other than hanging out all day and being like Lloyd is slaying so hard today yet again?

01:22:44
Speaker 3: Uh DC, a character who we know even less about, Oh for sure. So that was not great and I just wanted to take a little bit more time than we had in the live show to examine that. But yeah, that's our episodiode on say anything.

01:23:02
Speaker 1: And I think you'll agree we said whatever in that is it?

01:23:06
Speaker 3: We kind of said anything, but we also said everything.

01:23:10
Speaker 1: Wow. Whoa, Well goodbye? No wait, you can follow us online. It's on Instagram, ed, still Twitter sometimes at Bechdel Cast. You can sign up for our Patreon aka Matreon at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. Five dollars a month gets you two bonus episodes a month. Yay, including access to one hundred and fifty episodes of backlog. Of backlog makes it sound like backwash, which makes it sound not good, it's quite good. All bad.

01:23:43
Speaker 3: And then also check out our link tree for tickets for the on demand video version of this Say Anything live show, as well as our upcoming live shows that were doing kinda anywhere everywhere, Say any say anywhere.

01:24:07
Speaker 1: Say anything everywhere, all at once.

01:24:11
Speaker 3: That is that is so true.

01:24:14
Speaker 1: The people needed to hear my message. All right, Well, hey, we will talk to you next week. We'll see you next week.

01:24:24
Speaker 3: We'll see anything later, you later.

01:24:28
Speaker 1: I don't know.

01:24:28
Speaker 3: It didn't work, Free Palestine, Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Vosskresenski. Our logo in merch is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit link tree slash Bechtel Cast