Our First Male Guest. Ep 85

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode eighty five. Sarah and I have a very special guest joining us tonight who goes by the name of Josh Unger. He is our first male guest, but we thought it would be appropriate to start with him, and he's also possibly more game than my husband is, so we're thanks to your husband hears this, he's going to be like, Josh is being a very good sport to do this, So we're grateful to him. But I thought we'd go ahead and dive right in, since you know, I feel like our listeners may already know you to some degree. But Josh, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself. My name is Josh Younger. And how many years ago did we get married? Years ago? Well, that's not a scripture of you, but we've got married in two thousand and six. Yeah, yeah, so it's coming up on. Yeah, we do our math here. And how long were you guys together before that? We met the first day of medical school in two thousand and two and then we got married in two thousand and six. Yeah, so how did you first see Sarah? Did you like spot her in line? And like this isn't you know? It's actually slightly This is a funny story because Sarah, I think she might have mentioned this in one of the earlier episodes, is very good at remembering everybody's names. She's very good at remembering directions and names of the streets. She's very good at remembering obscure pharmacology facts. But it's not very good at recognizing people's faces. We first met, and you know, I will admit that it was like one of these weekends where everybody's checking out the medical school to see if they want to go to medical school there, and you're meeting all the other potential people, and I met Sarah in a group of people, and I don't remember what we were talking about. I do remember that her college is Williams College, and I messed up where it was or something, because it's you know, I knew it was small lettle Ar at school, but I didn't know the details. I think therefore followed him in the okay to forget Yes, she turned around and started talking to some other guy who did not make obscure comments about william That going for him. Yeah. And then I remember seeing her later that day, you know, at some one of the functions, and I was like waving hello, and she just walked right by, and I said, Okay, that's very interesting. But then when we started medical school, we were on there was like this weekend before classes started where you got to know your classmates, and we were on the same bus going out to h Mount Mitchell smoking, yeah, smoking Mountain Park in North Carolina, and we were talking on the boat on the bus, you know, not you know, it wasn't like we were knew instantly we're going to live forever together at that point, but we were, you know, we're friends. And then we were on the trip. And so you could do you could sign up for one activity on the trip like it was a Saturday or something like that, and so you know, everybody wanted to do whitewater rafting and some people went horseback riding, but I put on my list whitewater rafting, hiking, and then Sarah, I think, put hiking on her list, and so we ended up being on the same hike because everybody wanted to do whitewater rafting, but then they assigned some people to do hiking, so we ended up on the hike together. We had a good time. I remember talking about that, and then I remember we got to the We climbed up Mount Mitchell, which is the tallest mountain east of the Mississippi River, which sounds like a good like it sounds cool to do on your orientation to med school, except everybody was so out of shape. All were fifteen minutes into it. We look over at each other and everybody and everybody's like pouring with sweat, and I stort of thought like, oh, this might be a bad idea. So we got to the top, We're so tired, so hungry, and uh and Sarah we packed like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and Sarah, I remember Sarah gave me saw how hungry I was generous something like that. That's when we met the first you know. But then we started dating. We didn't do very well in the first test. No, maybe three we after we started. We started dating. Two weeks after the classes started starting to date. We went on our first date. Yeah, that's very It's like Labor Day, Labor Day, the first day, something less strenuous than than climbing Mount Mitchell. He realized that was that was not going to be the way this should go. What was the day that we went out Labor Day? There was no restaurants open. The only restaurant to open was the Japanese restaurant. I like that. That was agreed. That sounds like a place. It's like a very well organized menu. Well, while we're recording this, yeah, no, exactly, we're doing this after their kids went to bed, so we've we've not started early. But so, and how did you wind up in in your particular field, because I understand that you you had a short career prior to going to med school correctly, right, right, Yeah, I was a computer programmer and then the computer technical industry for about six years, and then you know, I was in my career. I liked it, it was great, but I felt like there was something missing from my career from like a humanitarian standpoint or something like that. And at the same time, one of my friends was in the hospital, so I saw what physicians and other healthcare practitioners were doing for my friend. And you know, my dad is a surgeon, just like I am, and I never thought that I would consider doing the same job that he did, just out of you know, desire to do my own thing kind of thing. And then once I was an adult and seeing what it was like as an outsider, I was like, oh, wow, this is something that people do. I see what doctors do, they like take care of patients, and this might be the thing that I'm missing from my career, the humanitarian purpose. And then that led me to think to go back to med school, which was a long road to even get to medicool. First day when I met Sarah, yeah, because did you have to? Did you have to go back to school and do like a post back like you know, pre med requirements, And yeah I did. I mean I was working full time, but I took some night classes and I only had to take like four classes because he had engineering. Okay, so you'd had the math in some of the science, then yeah, you hadn't sat through organic chemistry the first time though, fun fact, I actually did. I was the only person I think it was like not a Kim major or pre med. But I guess some of us just do these things for fun. It was not fun. It was not fun either, So I think I did one semester and then did not do the second. So, but you tell us about your particular branch of surgery because obviously wide world, I'm a vascular surgeon, which means operating on arteries and veins anywhere that's not the brain and that's not the heart. So every other artery in vein in the body we can operate on in theory and what what biden winds up being the bulk of your cases. Then, like, are there any common procedures that you want to know know? I can do this because I I just got interviewed for I just got interviewed for something like this. So my answer is like this, from head to toe, there's like five areas in vasco surgery. One is carotid arteries, which is the artery that goes to the brain. People can have strokes if they have blocket of their Smokers have cholesterol build up, and so we can go in and operate or put a stent in them. Okay, not the whole commercial versions. I was curious, it was not. That's cool, Okay, I'll go faster. Aortic aneurysms are in the abdomen and in the chest. When the A order, which is the main blood vessel on the body, gets too big and I can like rupture and bleed it people complete. So we sometimes fix that before it happens. In theory prefar atal diseases, like patients who have bad circulation to their feet and without fixing it, it could actually need an amputation if they don't get to fix So we sometimes that's a big part of my job, is trying to save somebody's limb from from dying. Is that is that mostly diabetic related? Then? Is that diabetics smoking? These are the two heavy hitters. People who are on dialysis need surgery to get hooked up to the dialysis machine. And so that's a that's what I made me like RAASPA. Surgery in the first place was just sewing a vein to an artery is just something about it was technically challenging. I feel like you're making something like crafting a thing that wasn't there before. Yes, serves a major, majorly helpful purpose. And these these graphs can last for years, right, and they basically solve a problem in these patients that otherwise, yeah, are left. But it's it's unlike some I mean, some surgeries you do and you're you're just done, Like appendicitis, somebody gets an appendix. I just they have to have their appendix out. You're like done, Okay, you see the patient and recovery, and then you never see them again. But all the patients in vascular surgery have a disease that doesn't go away from a surgery, so they're always We're always seeing them back in the office. So I have some long term relationships with patients, which is probably kind of nice from a job perspective of getting to know people, though kind of sad from their perspective. I'm sure they'd probably rather do other things than come see you nice nice as you are. Oh yeah, I mean we're trying to make it, I guess as nice as it can be for the office. But I mean, once they know you, it's kind of they're like your kids. How yeah, I think it's kind of nice. And what was involved in your training? Then? So you had your your medical school. What happens after that then to go to school? Oh sorry, sorry to interrupt, but in medical school is like four years then five years of general surgery training, two years of vascular surgery training, so seven years after medical school, eleven years total starting medical school and then then I was on my own after that? And how did that match up with How did that matched up? Really well? Because I ended up doing an extra year of med school because I was originally MDPHD. Left that to just get a master's and basically get out and go back to clinical. So I spent five years in medical school, three years in pediatrics residency, in three years in fellowship because all the pides felliships are three years. So we both had exactly eleven years to spend in lovely North Carolina at various institutions. So it worked out really well. That's cool. And so you guys moved to Florida and then Josh, you were working at a different hospital, but you've reached it recently switched jobs. Is is it pretty similar what you're doing it's just in a different environment. You're back and tell her about the life plan. The life plan? Was there a life plan? There was a life plan that we that one time we were in med school and we decided we're going to get married, and I think we sat down and when do we write that? Or it might have been resident, So do you guys have the life plan where you get married? Like before he asked, like that was you know you did you sketch this out on on your hob anichi? Sarah like, I'm curious how this is been. It must have been after we were married. We sort of were like sitting one day, We're like, what will life be like once we're finished training? You know, like what will it be like? We wrote it down? Yeah, And it wasn't on homie because I hadn't discovered them yet. But no, we wrote out I don't know where. We were somewhere in the middle of all that, probably in residency when it was like, wait a second, when are we are we going to get done to the exact same time? When is this end we're going to go afterwards? Okay, Sarah, three years of this, I have five years of this exactly what works and then we realized, oh, twenty thirteen, like that's our magical year that we're going to move to Florida. Everything's going to be so magic. It actually did happen. Now that your son's like a long time ago, but back then it seemed like an impossible future. But we did actually like write it down. That's cute. I don't remember the life plan as well as you do. Okay, maybe it was my life plan all right back to you. We don't. We don't have a life plan. There was no life plan, but I was just picturing, like Sarah had like the list and you know, maybe there was an open space next to you know, get engaged, and Josh had to come in, you know, put the check marks that. I do think there was some suggestion at one point I was like, well, just so you know, you know, we do need about a year to reserve a venue. I mean, it wasn't like it was a question for us. It was like pretty much early on we were like we knew it was going to happen. It was just logistics. Just like we're in med school, You're like working so hard and never we're always in classes and or in the wards and stuff, and even the year when we did research, it was still too much going on that we didn't even think. That was when we probably started thinking about, you know, when it will actually happen, even though we sort of like we're talking about it, it was going to happen. That's good. Yeah, well, so I was just asking about that. You you were working in one system and you recently moved to another. There been any big changes with that, with your schedule or what is your first what does your schedules look like? Yeah? What does your schedule look like? I want to hear how you when I first started at the I just switched to a new hospital. The old hospital system was about forty five minutes south and the new hospital system is the same system that Sarah's in, and we moved. I think there was a moving episode. Yeah, yeah, two weeks behind on the podcast. So the change was like this when we first started being a physician to start off, or being a surgeon, to me at least, it was like it was terrifying. I mean it's like, you know, you walk into the room to do surgery and you're like, where's the where's the attending, where's the person? Who? Where's the surgeon? Oh? Wait, I'm the surgeon. I have to figure this out how to do the case. And you know, we're well trained, so we could do it. But you know, it was it was really stressful and it was a lot of long hours. Probably every stage in my career was harder and harder than the year before, including the first two or three years of being in attending. But I was doing both general surgery and vascular surgery at the old hospital, and it got to be a lot because you were I was always on call for one or the other. And I liked doing vascular surgery. I like doing general surgery too, but it was a little too much, and I am a special specially. I had a specialist training, so I figured it's like at some point I was like, well, maybe I should just stick with a specialty as opposed to trying to be the master all tack of. It's a little bit less common to do both nowadays, most people kind of pick one. So in your new job, you're going to be more specialized than yeah, just fascal surgery. So far, it's been, uh, you know, busy, busier from a fast groa surgery standpoint, and what is it? What are surgeons you know what does the schedule generally look like? Do you consult at a certain time and then do procedures at a different time your week. Yeah, it's usually one and a half to two days total of clinic per week and then three plus days of operating spread out over half day or full day or whatever. So I've tried different variations of which day should be the clinic day, which day should be a certain day, but it's all mixed up because from week to week you're on call at different night, so it ends up just being sort of sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard. Yeah, it's confusing. Like I when we don't discuss what he's doing each day, I have no idea, so I usually have to ask in the morning, like do you have to are you taking the kids to school? Or do you have to leave at seven fifteen or do you have a meeting like I have. It's kind of different every day. I feel like you leave any time from seven to like eight thirty, depending and then you get home anytime from seven thirty to eleven one am. I don't even know what time. I mean, how long are your procedures generally or is it just so wildly varying based on how complicated it is once you go in. Yeah, wildly varying. I think most of the cases are in the hour to two hour range at the most. Some of the procedures. I've done a surgery for twelve hours before. That was crazy. Yeah, did you plan on it being twelve hours going in or that was something that happened in the middle. Yes, I remember one day you were like, I'm going to do a surgery. That's like the entire day. I knew there was going to be a really hard surgery. I didn't think it was going to be. Don't understand how they can just not pee for that long and not drink anything. It's crazy. Good question, because you didn't stop at all, Like you didn't, I don't know. I think in that case. In that case, it was like it was six hours of like real operating and then four to six hours of troubleshooting what was what was not working and ended up working at the end. I mean it was it was really like it's a it's a case that I present at conferences and as like a traumatic case. Yeah, I worked for twelve hours to get it done. Well, that's good. Good it turned out in the end. It was a bathroom break. During the troubleshot, I went running from one place at the hospital to another place to get equipment, and I did take a break. See. I was wondering that because you know, as my blog readers know, I recently got back from Disney and at Animal Kingdom, the Avatar flight of passage line hit three hundred and forty five minutes, and I was like, I cannot ponder like getting in that line and not being able to use the bathroom, like the entirety. Maybe if it's long enough they have bathrooms along the way. They don't. There's no restroom facilities on it. I didn't hear three hundred and forty five minutes, so almost sixty hours. But I thought Disney inflated their times by like twenty percent. Yeah, but still that's like three hundred hours, three hundred minutes. Yeah. Yeah, Well, you know, life of a surgeon, I guess you got to go EI. There's like a routine, like you get the patient ready, go to the bathroom, come back to the case, come back to the case for the end, and then by the end of the case, you're like, then you start paying attention to what else is going on. Yeah, yeah, so it's like so intense. Even if you're relaxed in a case, you're still focused. Of course, these are focused. I mean somebody's you know, open in front of you. That's probably a good, good thing. Well, what would I mean, what would be your ideal schedule? Though, I mean there's certain realities of surgery, but if if you were going to have this sort of ideally set up, what would you what would good question? Yeah, hard to say. Well, I'll say this, we didn't really talk about family as part of the schedule I started the first two or three years when I was working, I was just trying to make it through all the challenges of being a new attending and that meant, you know, getting to work very early and staying late. And it was really I remember, was that on the weekends we I had a lot more responsibilities with the kids, whereas in the morning and the evening it was more Sarah doing it. In the first couple of years. And although I remember at the beginning, I was trying to drive Annabel to the daycare when we first started, you know, I tried to drive Fellowship and when we were first when we first started, in a month and it was just like a tremendous stress for both of us because Sarah had to like get home to pick up from daycare, and I was driving her to Jake Care on the way to like do a surgery, and I'll be late to go and to start the surgery and be anxious. But then, after three years of being you know, really intenseve with my job, I try to focus a little bit on trying to take the kids to school once a week. Fore, Yeah, there was a point when, yeah, you were doing like Monday one kid and then Friday the other kid. The nights are a little more hit or miss. Some weeks are great and you're able to come home, and then other weeks are not great. It's just sort of varies. And it used to be that I was in charge of the mornings with the kids, and then Sarah was in charge of the nights. But then lately I don't think. I think with three kids, it's been hard to sort of get them to sync up with wake up at the same time and I can be in charge of them while you're doing other stuff. It's been hard lately, especially when we moved recently. Yeah, well, three kids, you know, it's sort of harder to do one parent on and it just winds up being like everyone's on though we have to. I mean it's like it's if you can't ever do one parent on and you have three kids. I mean it's true, if you have extra childcare then great, but then otherwise than the other you know, we've talked about this. It's nice to have something like this weekend, you're going to a guitar thing for three hours, you know, and that's fine. I'm going to take all three kids and in exchange. Well I haven't even asked yet. Whatever you want, whatever you want, so whatever you know. And but the last last couple of weekends, like you were on call and then I had to Yeah, you had all three kids, and then you were on call again. I had all three kids and it's fine. Well, so Josh, we get Sarah's blog play by play and Instagram stories when she's on in the weekend when the kids, so we're not getting your social media stuff of like you're when Sarah's on call. So what do you want to do? A takeover? Yeah, well what do you do? How do you deal with the weekend when you've you've got the kids, Because she's on call. I try to tire them out. That's my it's my job. That's Michael Like. Actually, I try to take them to the pool in the morning to really get them tired and involve some sort of like bicycle riding or something after being in the pool. And then when they're tired enough, Genevieve's sleeps and the other two kids get that to watch a movie or something. Yeah, the same thing with Sarah did. Yeah. Yeah, And I always I try to like get out to something like Sarah does, to some museum or something, you know, so it's pool or swimming pool, swimming in the morning or bicycling in the morning, and then like a thing in the afternoon. Sometimes my calls are not quite as they're not always like yeah, sometimes sis around for like three hours. But I will say a couple of weeks ago, I was like, I'm leaving for the entire days. I'm extremely busy. You're going to handle it, and you did. That's great, Yeah, yeah, that's great for us. So and now if you're planning like we I know Sarah tends to be the weekend cruise director in the the Younger household, but if you were to plan a weekend where all five of you were around, Like, what would it include? This is hard. I want to listen to that. I would like to go out for dinner one night, you know, that's one of my things weekend we're all around. Uh, we've gotten into kind of a groove where we're doing some of this already, where we're like, on a Saturday night, Sarah and I go out where the kids have a babysitter. Friday night's the movie night for the kids, and those things are sort of built in these days. Yeah, it's true. I mean, like I don't I wouldn't have to think about those think about it, but I would want, you know, I would maybe some one of these days I come up with like a thing like, oh, I want to go to this thing this weekend with the kids, and then we do it, you know. You know one of the ideas that I had recently was I wanted to go to like a music concert outside with the kids. But it's never worked out with our call schedule for when one of those things come up. But we're going to have someday in a park. Yeah, in a park. See you've mentioned music a couple of times, and I know that you play the guitar. Is that is that still happening? Yeah, that's my midlife playing picking up a musical instrument for stress relief. It's a healthy one, it's healthy. I could have bought a sports car, but instead I bought a guitar guitars, which you're much less expensive than sports car. But well, why three do they play differently somehow? Or what's the Yeah? Oh yeah, one one's acoustic guitar, ones, electric guitar, ones, a bass guitar. Gotcha? Gotcha? Well then of course, yeah anymore. Although I've not really understood the multiple cars thing either, because it's not like you can drive more than one car at once either. So yet people collect like twenty if they're into that. So yes, and are you? Are you right? Like when you do you do exercise? I've heard from you know, a reliable source that when you suddenly do a race, you have like incredibly impressive times. I can be like I can be motivated by a race, like it comes in waves, you know people, you know. I like to trying to extend my career by not training all the time. It's a good injury prevention prevention technique. Yeah, Like I go like one year, I'll run a lot, and then two years ago by, and then I'll run a lot the next year. That is there is some truth to that, but he also happens to have a lot of natural running talent, like in med school. You know, we're training for race and he's all excited about it. I'm like, whatever, you know. I mean, it was fun. I could tell he was fast. We go on the trip with our really good friends who are our good friends to this day, and and like we're both our friend and me like relieved the fact that he said he was watching the race and he's like, oh my god, Josh, isn't third, Like it was a big, big half marathon. He was like the third one career. But he's actually really really fast, and without training, you're like pretty fast, and then with training your your very fast. The secret to that race was the classes of red wine the night before that. These are sort of ordox methods, like don't train, drink red wine before Yeah, well okay, and then then you're just anyway, Yeah, exactly did did you do more running in the two months you had between between your old job ending and your new ones starting. I'm curious how you use those if you were able to do much during those two months. That was different fun goals that were made about running bad, playing guitar, and you know being you know, being at home, which happened all the time, but it ended up being taken up by lots of not fun things like cinting the house, going to Ikia, moving boxes from one place to another. Uh. Then you know, once we had that our house stage where we said, oh my goodness, we really kind of have to move to the place where we're working and find find out finding a house and all that stuff and then arranging to move it. That like that was my two months, right yeah, yeah, no, that can definitely take two months right there. It's well, you know, best like plans. It always sounds like, you know, yes, I'm gonna run every day and I don't know, practice all sorts of new songs, and then yeah, it doesn't really happen. But so what is your I know you are a podcast listener, which we appreciate. What's been podcast that I really listened to? What's been one of your favorite episodes? Oh? Good question, Yeah, let me think about it. Well I do. I would just say I listened to it on the run A lot. You know. I every now and then I'll hear an episode where Sarah talks a lot about herself, not not not to the like where she talks more about herself than normal. You know, like you're doing the like where you when when Laura and Sarah talked to you, like when you talk about things and then Sarah sort of interjects something about herself. I was like, Wow, I didn't know that. Usually I know everything that she's she's talking about, but then every now and then I'll be surprised. So I kind of like that get to episode. That was a nice answer. You get to know your spouse better when they start a podcast and then you're like, wait, you never told me that I know most of the I know most I like, no, ninety nine percent of what she said. I like know what she's going to say before she says it a lot of times. But then there's a one percent of the time when I'm like, oh, that's really cool. I didn't know that. Yeah, exactly. Well, has I guess the one question? You know, I was always on my mind with blogging and talking about my life and my family's life. Has there ever been any awkward moments for you? Like between you and Sarah, or you and your family, or you and other people in the world because of something she's like blogged about. No, no, thank goodness. No, I mean there have been some co mentors over the years. Oh yeah, that, I will say. I guess, well, I guess we're not going to me. We don't need any means. But like that would be the one thing that would qualify as something that made me uncomfortable in terms of like day to day life. Like sometimes yeah, no, I never met somebody randomly says, oh, you know that one of my friends. It's actually funny. My college roommate, his wife was listening to the podcast and realized that it was my Sarah who was in the podcast, and then reconnected with a second I think I know that situation, and then emailed me. It's like, oh my goodness, Tracy loves it, you know, loves the podcast. And so then I got back in touch with my college roommates, so that, I mean, we were always in touch, but like and you know, got as new ast email kind of thing. Yeah, well that's really cool. Yeah, I will say, said to answer your question, though, there there were some times where like somebody would pick on me on Sarah. You could tell they're like inserting their own issues and making assumptions where I'm and a lot of times I do feel compelled to be like, well, actually, what you just said is like not accurate, and that's aw that that can be. I guess like it might have been somebody who had a had relationship with somebody who was a surgeon or a doctor, and then it was like projecting all these things onto onto me, and I don't I don't know what to say anyway, We're thankful for everyone who reads in comments. But that was a yes when I felt personally attacked in my blog in Sarah's blog comments that, which is very rare for that. It is very it was very Actually that does make me uncomfortable sometimes, but I'm just like, then you move on. I mean, once, once I composed the reply and then didn't send it, that's the best. That's the best way to do it, actually, and then okay, I don't actually need to say yeah, well, I mean, what are you knew somebody on the internet doesn't like you into the world right there? So well, well this is cool. I mean, Sarah, do you have any other questions? I mean, those were the questions I had to ask, so well, I mean that's why I wanted you to do it, because I was like, when am I going to ask? Maybe I would have found out one percent of things that I didn't know and I don't know. But yeah, no, that was that was fun. Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, well, Josh, real quick, because we always do our Love of the Week. Well that's why Sarah and I go first, because that allows us to give our guests time to think of something. I'm going to say that my thing because we're recording this in mid February and we just got the call from the school district about school being closed tomorrow. But I am really really grateful I've used this one before. I'm sure that they don't call at six am anymore, Like yeah that I that they now text and email and that's great. And I think I've said that the last week as well. But it's my love of the week this week too, Like it's bad enough to have the snow day, but if you're going to have one, like, may you not be called at six am to like be learning about it? So there we go, Sarah, my love of we I am reading Bad Blood by John Oh I read that too. Yeah, oh my gosh, I love it. I think it's super It's like a perfect blend. It's true, but it's also very juicy. It's got the Silicon Valley kind of side to it. And I get a personal satisfaction because I remember seeing like this little ad for the company, and this was before the scandal came out, and I was like, no way, there's no way that's true. There's no way that's real. I called yes, and I was right to your right. Yeah, that woman is pretty intense, Like, oh my goodness, you read about her and that that story mean that she my favorite scene I think so her car window was shot out in a drive by shooting and then she just went to work with glass in her hair because as you do, as one does, one does, all right, Josh, Yeah, I got one. Okay, make fun of me. Okay, the love of my week is my wife Sarah. In the podcast we did think us are one item of swag. So yes, that's true. You are. You're a super fan. Thanks super fan. That's great. Well you can be our love of the week, Josh ego that we could put you as one too, So none feel bad, like no, I chose John Carry Sorry, I'm awesome. Well you know we're glad we Josh was willing to do this, to come on as our first male guest and talk about his life, but this is This has been the best of both worlds and we'll be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.