Pod Meets World 2/19/24

00:00:00
Speaker 1: The following episode will be discussing childhood sexual abuse, grooming and the effects they can have. It also contains uncensored adult language. These subject matters can be sensitive for many of us, and if you find yourself at all worried about listening to this episode, please skip right past this one and we will return to our regular programming next week. With this in mind, here's this week's episode of pod Meets World.

00:00:44
Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome to pod meets World.

00:00:47
Speaker 3: This episode is going to be a little out of format and with a slightly different tone, but we do hope that you will stick with it as we think this is going to be a very important discussion, not only for us, but for you as well. When we decided to embark on the journey that is pod meets World a few years back, we set a few guidelines for ourselves, and at the top of the list was that we were going to be as honest and open as possible, because regardless of how many people listened, we knew that if we were going to look back on our childhoods, it would mean a whole lot to us. We weren't going to shy away from anything just because it was uncomfortable or inconvenient, and so far all three of us have agreed talking about our shared history on this podcast, The good and the Bad has become the body of work we are most proud of in our careers, and so today we face one of those uncomfortable and inconvenient moments. Every episode we mentioned the guest stars that you're going to see, We say their name, and we mentioned the other shows they've been on. And with season five looming close, we know that we'll need to address an actor and behind the scenes figure who appeared on the show starting in nineteen ninety seven, and we knew this deserved a more detailed discussion, especially even since we as hosts are still unpacking everything involved, and we know that discourse around this subject has culturally ramped up, with Will and Writer even being contacted recently for a statement. So we decided to talk about it here on our podcast, where we can dig much deeper than one sentence.

00:02:14
Speaker 2: This episode is.

00:02:15
Speaker 3: Unrehearsed or really not pre produced at all outside of this intro, and we are taping it without knowing when it will air, and we have reached out to an expert family therapist, Katie Morton. Katie has been on the forefront of the mental health movement since twenty eleven, demystifying mental health myths and replacing stigmas with understanding, amassing over one point three million subscribers on YouTube and over one hundred and twenty million views of help. She's released two books, Are You Okay, A Guide to Caring for Mental health and the book that brought her to us today, twenty twenty one's Traumatized, Identify, Understand and Cope with PTSD and Emotional Stress.

00:02:53
Speaker 4: Hello Katie, Hi, thanks for having.

00:02:55
Speaker 2: Me, Thank you for being here.

00:02:57
Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety seven, for the start of season, a new stand in was brought on the show. He had worked on sitcoms before Boymeet's World in similar capacities, also moonlighting as an acting coach, and as you've learned from this podcast, since it takes a village to produce television, he was added to a roster that was always constantly changing, and so this is when Brian Peck entered Our Lives. He would eventually become a mainstay on set, not just working on the show and appearing on it with many small rules until it concluded in two thousand and one, but integrating himself into Will and Writer's personal life, becoming part of their most trusted inner circle, despite being more than fifteen years older than both of them and crossing many workplace boundaries. And then in August of two thousand and three, he was arrested in Los Angeles, then forty three years old, for lude acts with a child that occurred in two thousand and one with an underage student he was coaching. To say this came as a shock to us at the time would have been an understatement. We saw no signs of this behavior and were not victimized ourselves, and were constantly being told by this person who was our friend that he was the actual victim. In the end, he was convicted and spent sixteen months in prison. There had been reports of him working on sets that involved kid actors after his release, with watchdog groups and media outlets correctly staying vigilant on his actions, but we couldn't confirm anything outside of what we've read online. So here we are today to have an honest and open discussion about a hot button topic in Hollywood and hopes that this will not just become another clickbait headline, but rather lead people to this episode a longer open and raw dialogue about sexual predators, manipulation, and grooming. Katie, I'm going to let you take it from here, and we thank you so very much for joining us, as we want to be very considerate of any victims involved.

00:04:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course, thanks for having me. I think I mean is it's a difficult topic to address because the thing that I think I first want to talk about is to help people understand what the term grooming means, because I think it's wonderful and social media that we talk about things. People use language and you know, we're sharing information, but sometimes that comes with a lack of actual understanding. And the thing about grooming that makes it difficult, painful, and confusing is because it is a form of manipulation, and a lot of people don't understand that. I think, oh, if I was groomed, then that means that something happened to me in that moment they were harming me. We think of like abuse itself, right, and grooming in and of itself is not like a criminal act. It's not something I can diagnose. It's not something that is even often noticed. And the reason for it is that when someone's being groomed, the entire goal is to get something from another person, meaning that if let's say I'm the abuser and I'm grooming you, Daniel, I might make friends with your parents, I might make friends with your friends. I might try to get a job at the same place. Let's say we both work at a restaurant. Right, I'll try to kind of weasel my way into your life so that other people in your life will vouch for me. And I think that's what is really hard for people to understand and what ends up kind of causing what i'd call like cognitive dissonance, like this, these can't occur together. It's like, but this was my friend or this was a person in my life. I worked with them for years. In your case, it was on the set, and you're like, this, nothing happened to me, right, but they did these horrible things, And then it's like it's really hard for us to make sense of it. Hence why grooming is effective. And I know that sounds kind of icky and that makes us all want to like rip our skin off, like h but that's kind of That's the reason it works is because it's slow and steady manipulation to find a way to get into our life to either harm us or to harm someone close to us. That's why I said, like, I could become friends with your parents or friends with your parents, you know, your friends, because the whole goal is to to have you put your walls down right feel safe.

00:07:06
Speaker 5: Can I ask a quick question, I'm sorry, no, cut your goal for it? Does the abuser know they're doing this?

00:07:13
Speaker 4: Yes and no. It depends on the person. I think the awareness isn't there because they're the ultimate goal is to get whatever it is they want. So let's say it is sexual abuse of a minor. If they're attracted to a certain kid or a certain person, then the goal is to get that. Does that make sense? So whether or not they're really aware of oh, what I'm doing is like grooming behavior. It's almost like like when you're a kid, you know, and you want your parents to let you go to a party and they've said no, and you're like, I'm going to ask dad. I already asked mom. She said no, I'm gonna I'm going to try another way. It's that same type of experience where the goal is to get that end result and we don't care how we get to it. That's a good question.

00:08:00
Speaker 3: Well, when you mentioned the parent situation, like that you might become friends with my parents, is the goal in that situation that my parents would then trust you, So now my parents will allow you to have access to me. And if my parents trust you, it may help me feel more trustworthy around you too, because it's like, well, you know, when you look around and you go, hey, if we all agree that this person's cool, there's much less questioning that needs to go on about whether or not this person is cool because we all agree.

00:08:45
Speaker 4: And I think, especially in the case of being like a child star, you have a often more responsibilities than a normal child, and unfortunately that can also come with less protectorates, like our parents might not be as involved. Which I don't know how this person worked their way into your life specifically, but my hypothesis would be that they made friends with your friends and started hanging out to make it more normalized little by little, because then it doesn't feel because that person was way older, right, which as adults now, if we saw like remove ourselves from it, if we saw like a fifteen year old hanging out with a thirty year old, we'd be like, yeah, I mean, I'm forty and I don't even think I can really hang with like twenty year olds, right, I think I can until we're together, and then I'm like, oh my god, I guess I am forty, So I think that what might have been an automatic, Oh this is weird kind of Then it's slow, but sure, we get to know other people. They bring them around, We bring them around, and it's that slow and steady kind of wiggling in to where all of a sudden it feels normal.

00:09:53
Speaker 6: Right.

00:09:53
Speaker 4: No parent was probably there to be like, hey, this is an adult, you're still children.

00:09:59
Speaker 7: That's all we did though, as kids child act with adults. You hung out with adults all the time. We were adults. Other than our ages. We were treated completely and totally as adults. There was unless you were really a kid, like a kid kid like Lily nick Say who was five or six at the time, or even when Lindsay came on and she was eleven, if you were fourteen, fifteen, sixteen hanging out with people that were forty forty five fifty.

00:10:24
Speaker 5: Was you did that experience?

00:10:26
Speaker 8: I was yeah.

00:10:26
Speaker 7: There was no you were treated there there was no age gap. It just didn't exist on a set. You were everyone was thrown together, and it didn't mad. There might have been a hierarchy when it came to more powerful positions of who you.

00:10:41
Speaker 8: Were I was going to show.

00:10:43
Speaker 6: But in a weird way, it actually inverted those hierarchies because we were show. Yeah we have the power, right like, and we were in we were in positions of authority weirdly to the other people that we were working with, Like I mean we by especially by like season five, the show's you going to go on with or without certain stand ins or directors or stage managers. It's not going to go on without us, And.

00:11:08
Speaker 5: We've gone like that.

00:11:09
Speaker 7: If you said we don't want them on the set anymore, that would have been it.

00:11:13
Speaker 5: It would have been gone.

00:11:14
Speaker 7: But the idea of seeing you know, on the street in everyday life, if you see two friends one of them's forty and one of them seventeen, it looks weird.

00:11:25
Speaker 5: On a set, it looks completely and totally normal.

00:11:28
Speaker 2: Yeah it's on a set, it does.

00:11:30
Speaker 3: But this person also then did go to events you guys would have, you know, parties, you would have after work. And again it's part of like I know, for me as a teenager, when the adults treated me like an adult. That made me feel so good because all I wanted, is I've courted, was to be seen, was to be an adult, and was to be mature enough to hang out with other adults. So them coming to a party or them hanging out with my friends didn't make me think badly of them. It made me think very highly of myself. Eli's an unfair thing for the kid in a relationship to go, hey, it's.

00:12:14
Speaker 2: Is it weird that you want to hang out with me? It should be the adult.

00:12:18
Speaker 3: Who knows, Yes, what on earth am I going to do hanging out with a bunch of kids Like that's a boundary I couldn't cross. I mean, I know on Girl Meets World, the kids always wanted me to do things with them, and sometimes I did. Sometimes we'd go to lunch, but for the most part, I was very much like, guys, you guys are a core group of teen friends, and that's great you guys foster that relationship. But just because we all work together doesn't mean I should be at your hangouts like chat totally.

00:12:45
Speaker 4: And I know that's why you're a little more vulnerable in that particular situation when you feel like you're the adult, or you have as much power. The power dynamic is a little bit off, and there aren't I assume for most of you, your parents weren't like onset every day.

00:13:01
Speaker 8: Checking out by season five.

00:13:04
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so the people in your life who should have been like this is weird because you again, like to Daniel's point, like you're not supposed to as a kid, be the one that's like this isn't right. You know, we want to be cool. I remember when I was a kid, like counting down the days until I was sixteen or eighteen or twenty one, Like everything was like I wanted to be responsible. I wanted people to take me seriously, and that was taken advantage of, you know, and that that's why adults, that's why there are protectants in place for children on sets, especially the little ones, because and obvious this is probably also why it happens a lot in Hollywood is because children and teenagers in particular are very vulnerable. Because what teen doesn't want to be cool, doesn't want to hang out with the older kids. I mean, even you could people might not like this, but like when you're eighteen, when I was a kid group in a really small town, so like you try to get your older brother to buy you beer, and like you want to be old and cool, and like, I think that that can sometimes get confused, and that can you know, there's no bone in my body that says that it's appropriate for, like, you know, a thirty year old to be hanging out with fifteen year olds.

00:14:19
Speaker 7: That's one of the reasons I'm struggling so much of this, and it's been bothering me for so long is I wasn't fifteen.

00:14:26
Speaker 5: I was like nineteen, and.

00:14:29
Speaker 7: I wanted because I'd been an actor for so long, because I've been living by myself. I want to look back and think that I was worldly and there's no way that I could have been taken advantage of at that age, and there's no way that I could be manipulated like this because I was an adult.

00:14:45
Speaker 5: And that's one of the things that's really.

00:14:47
Speaker 7: Sticking with me more than anything else, is that I have this anger towards myself of where it's like, you were supposed to know this then.

00:14:58
Speaker 5: Were you, though I don't, I mean in my head I was.

00:15:01
Speaker 7: I was, you know, by the time I had heard what had happened, I'd known this man for years and years, had no idea that any of this was going on, obviously, and the idea that now at twenty four or whatever, I was twenty four to twenty five when when it happened and found out about it that I didn't know, couldn't spot it, didn't I mean, that was a failure, my own failure in my mind, where it was like, I I don't know, I don't even I don't even know how to put half of what I'm feeling into words, to be totally honest with you. And I've been thinking about it for a long time now, and it's just that's one of the things that's really sticking with me is it was like I'd love to say, oh it was because I was going through my anxiety, it was because I was only twenty foot, But there's no in my head, there's no excuses to where it's like, how did you not see this?

00:15:51
Speaker 5: How did you not?

00:15:53
Speaker 7: I don't know?

00:15:53
Speaker 4: It's I hear you and I think, unfortunately there's a lot pack a couple things, and you let me know if you're like Katie, your way off base, you can tell me like that's stupid. I don't agree, but I think when we when we look back as adults, So I mean, I don't know how old each and every one of you are, but I'm forty. Even at twenty five, I would say I was like adult light, right, like they you know, right. But when we look back on old experiences with our adult glasses, it's hard for us to know or remember what it was like to actually be a kid that at that age nineteen I would still say as a kid, I mean I was a kid, like I was not making good decisions. So we forget what it's like. And then you're judging younger you with adult use knowledge, right, and younger you didn't even know. And I think that's the tricky thing when it comes to any abusive situation. And I know abuse can feel like a big word, but abuse, like in this case, if you were manipulated to give someone access to other people to be at the same places, you know, they abuse that relationship, right, we could at least use that term to discover. And so if we felt like we were used in some way, it's our immediate response to any kind of abuse or trauma is to minimize and invalidate our experience because we want to take blame for it, because we were kind of part of it, even though we weren't an active part. It's confusing. I understand why you're feeling very like these two things can't coexist. He can't be a bad guy and I can't be a good guy. How did that happen? And I think the untangling and the understanding of that manipulation and why they do it and how they do it can at least give us another perspective. It takes time. Like again, I just encourage you. Something I have my patience to when we're trying to make sense of an old thing that happened and we feel like we can't even remember what it's like to be us at that age, is to and luckily, you probably have a lot of footage, a lot of photos of yourself at that age, and if you can ever, I don't know if you have this, but I stumbled upon my own recently old emails or old letters. Reading through that, I was like, oh my god, Like I was in college and it was me and one of my girlfriends, she was studying abroad. We sent emails back and forth. Mortified, I don't even know that, Katie. I'm like, I don't even remember I don't even know what that was like. And I don't know if you can access some of that, because sometimes getting into the head of you at nineteen or twenty, it can give you a little bit of compassion for yourself, a little understanding for the fact that hey, I thought I knew everything, but I didn't know anything, you know, and not like in a judgmental way, just like you're really just like a kid. Still.

00:18:39
Speaker 6: I think it's very hard for us too, in the particular situation we're in.

00:18:43
Speaker 8: Because.

00:18:46
Speaker 6: Because we were achieving success, you know, Like what we were doing at that age was an accomplishment. We had made it as actors into the top what ten percent of actors in the whole world, two percent of actors in the whole world. We were paid to be on a TV show. So like, as far as everyone around us and the whole we were successful. We were achieving something. And I think that there's prob we want to have pride in them, right, like we want to have pride and how mature we were and how together we were and how we accomplished, you know. And I remember you would as a kid actor, you would know the other kid actors who weren't going to make it because they didn't have the abilities, not necessarily the talent, but just the life skills. They couldn't manage their money, they couldn't figure out their apartment situation, they didn't know how to take care of themselves. And like, the three of us were highly capable teenagers. And I think that that capability, you know, it's hard to look back and not see it all capable, you know, like to look back and be like, oh, I was super capable in all these ways, but I still had no clue to spot a bad person, you know that I was still a sucker for kindness or you know. And I think like Will and I, you know, Will, we've talked about this. Like another part of it that you know, is blurring these lines is like I always dated older women. Yeah, from the age of sixteen or seventeen on, like I dated a couple people and then literally ever since I was seventeen, never dated a woman in my age. And I think that that was again part of these boundaries, and it like went through degrees, Like you're talking about.

00:20:29
Speaker 8: Two or three years older. It's not that big of a deal.

00:20:32
Speaker 6: I mean it was a bigger deal back then, sure, But I was also dating women way older than like yeah, like and you and I have talked about, like that's that was really hard for me to recognize, Like that's it. That's also kind of messed up. Like I looked at it as an accomplishment to be eighteen and having an affair with a thirty two year old woman Like that was something I was like proud of until relatively recently where I was like, what is up with that person?

00:20:55
Speaker 8: Like that is so weird.

00:20:57
Speaker 6: That is not cool, you know, and like and to the power dynamics were a little different because male female again actor, you know, but like that's messed up, right, And that's very hard for me to recognize because again, I want to be.

00:21:10
Speaker 8: Proud of that.

00:21:10
Speaker 6: I wanted to be proud of that, like I'm so mature, I'm so cool that I can date older women. And like in retrospect, like, no, man, that's that's again that like boundary crossing.

00:21:20
Speaker 8: That was just are for the course.

00:21:22
Speaker 4: Well it became normalized, right, So then that's what he went out in the world looking for. And not to make assumptions about either of your lives, but for any of my patients who end up dating, marrying, being involved with people that are a lot older. A lot of times that comes out of a lack of support from parents. And not to say parents are bad. I think people want to throw parents under the bus a lot. But it's not about that. It's more about the emotional support that we get from parents. And I mean that in the most honest way. That like if your mother's had been there and been around the set, and this person was there and like he's a little old, like take you aside, like this person's a little old, you know. Just having that kind of what i'd call wise counsel and having that support is really important when we're children, even though as teens we want to push our parents away. I know better, you're so stupid. You don't know what it's like to be me. And obviously in a position of power, we're earning money things like that, but we can go out looking for other people to essentially fill that void of that support that we needed and didn't get, even though I know it's hard to maybe realize because you didn't know it at the time. Right, Often when we're kids, we don't know what we need until.

00:22:30
Speaker 7: I go I was in a different scenario. It's very strange because I ended up marrying an older woman. I usually dated older women. My parents are still my two biggest supporters that I've ever had. But I still left at sixteen to go and do Boyman's World. Yeah, so, I mean I was still It killed me that I had to leave. It killed them that I had to leave, but they knew for me to do what I loved and what I wanted to do, that I had to go. And my mom has told me to this day that there were when she first came on the set. It might have even been when we were doing the first photoshoot, she said, I did not like the way.

00:23:07
Speaker 5: A lot of the older women were looking at you. She said.

00:23:10
Speaker 7: She told me that right from the start, I do not like the way that they're looking at you. And she would tell me that often, you know where she would come to the set and she would say, I don't like She would tell me, I don't like the way the men are looking at Danielle.

00:23:24
Speaker 5: I don't like the way the women are looking at you. She would tell me that all the time. So and I still ended up with an older woman.

00:23:30
Speaker 7: So I think one of those reasons is, you know, when you're sixteen and you're living I had a guardian until I was eighteen, but I was essentially living by myself.

00:23:40
Speaker 5: You had to grow up in certain ways.

00:23:42
Speaker 7: And I think that's why looking back at this is so and I think it's what Riders talking about. There's this strange twisting of in some ways you are way more mature than anybody else your age, and in other ways, and so because of that, you ignore the fact that at the end of the day, you're still nineteen. Yeah, you know that you can only be so worldly. You can only be you know. I look back and I go, I can't. I can't have been this naive. I mean, this man came onto our set, befriended us instantly, super nice guy, to the point where I didn't have a lot of friends. I still don't have a lot of friends. I keep my circle of friends very, very small.

00:24:21
Speaker 4: And it's probably protective, right, Yeah, who wants something from me? Who's who's authentically my friends?

00:24:26
Speaker 7: And the anxiety And I never blame my mental illness for anything, and I'm not about to start now. My decisions are all my own. But because of the anxiety, it also keeps your world very small. So I was I was making sure I knew who was in my world. I didn't go to parties. I didn't didn't really do that stuff. But I was working a lot after Boy Meets World, and this guy had so ingratiated himself into my life. I took him to three shows after Boy Meets World.

00:24:54
Speaker 8: Yeah, so, I.

00:24:56
Speaker 7: Mean this was the type of thing where the person he presented was this great, funny guy who was really good at his job and you wanted to hang out with. Again, I didn't hang out with him a lot socially, but we were on four different shows together on sets all the time.

00:25:15
Speaker 8: I did, I'm going out all the time.

00:25:17
Speaker 5: You hung out socially, right, Yes, so that's the thing is, but that's because I didn't.

00:25:20
Speaker 7: I mean, I just didn't have much of a social life because I was in my house. But I saw him every day, hung out with him every day, talk to him every day. And so to look back at that and and then him telling us what happened, I'll just say, for me telling me what happened, and then instantly spinning it to where it wasn't his fault, it was clearly the fault of his victim. My initial instinct because of the years I've been with him, is like, well, yeah, of course it can't be.

00:25:47
Speaker 5: You can't be.

00:25:47
Speaker 2: You right, you're innocent.

00:25:49
Speaker 5: I mean, it can't It can't possibly be that.

00:25:51
Speaker 7: So you sidle up to the guy who now you look back as adult, and.

00:25:56
Speaker 5: You go, that's that's he's horrible. And my instinct initially was, well, my friend can't be. This can't be. So it's got to be the other person's fault has to be.

00:26:09
Speaker 7: The story of course makes complete sense the way that he's saying it, and you're damn right, it's that kid's fault.

00:26:15
Speaker 5: How dare he? And I look back at that now as.

00:26:17
Speaker 7: An adult, and it it makes me want to cry that I ever was that naive And it's I don't know.

00:26:25
Speaker 5: Again, I have all these We've tried, writer and I have.

00:26:28
Speaker 7: Tried talking about this. Danielle and Ryder and I have tried talking about this. We've all tried to discuss this, and I still can't get the words out to describe all of the things that I'm feeling inside of myself. And it's it's again, I don't know.

00:26:42
Speaker 3: Can I add a layer to this too that I think is really important to talk about because I think it. I think it's important. Like, we had a lot of stand ins leading up to season five.

00:26:51
Speaker 2: And sometimes it just happened.

00:26:53
Speaker 3: Recently, we were like, Hey, that guy who's in this episode is one of our stand ins, and we couldn't remember his name. And that's not because we're terrible people, and it's not because we have awful memories. Sometimes it's just because even though we worked with those people every day, there were boundaries in place that adult did have boundaries with us, didn't try to separate us from our friends or have lunch with us every day off stage.

00:27:20
Speaker 2: This particular person did.

00:27:23
Speaker 3: All the years of having stand ins, no one ever do I remember regularly going to lunch with the cast members, but this person did. And part of that's because when they arrived on set, they were extremely charming, They were very personable, They had a lot of jokes. They also, because of their many years of experience working in the entertainment industry, knew other very successful famous kids and young men and regularly talked about them. And regardless of how much we had, you know, for how many years we had been in the industry, or the thought that actors were still just people famous actors that were succeeding at the very thing we were doing, and sometimes in movies, which for a lot of us was like the real goal, Like we're on a sitcom now, but we all want to be movie stars. And this person was friends with those movie stars and they mentioned them and that's it felt It felt cool. It felt like, Wow, this guy knows those people. Those are his friends, and he always had funny stories, and he always had great stories, and you'd want to know more, and next thing you know.

00:28:29
Speaker 2: You'd be at lunch with this person.

00:28:31
Speaker 3: Also, it was well and so that's one aspect that I just want to point out that this person very quickly was like we're going to be friends, and did we were like this guy's great Two this person was this person was gay, and we knew that he was gay, and homophobia was rampant, especially in the nineties, and when we when he's gay, all of us that side of us that's like, that doesn't mean anything to us, don't care, doesn't mean anything to us. But the other adults on set who maybe could have or should have said, why are you guys going to lunch with this guy? Why is this guy going to writer's house?

00:29:14
Speaker 2: For a party.

00:29:16
Speaker 3: There was probably a part of them that didn't say it because they were afraid it was going to be taken as homophobia instead of this is a boundary gay or not. This is a boundary about adults and kids. And so I also think that's important in the story of writer and Will about why he befriended the two.

00:29:38
Speaker 2: Of you so closely.

00:29:41
Speaker 3: And I did have lunch with him a couple of times, but only because someone else would invite me. Someon would say, Hey, I'm going to lunch with him, do you want to come, And I'd go, yeah, sure, I'll go to lunch. But he didn't really make an effort to get to know me. He didn't ingratiate himselves as much into my life. I never heard from him again after the show ended. Then I didn't, you know, he didn't come to my parents' house or he didn't do that with me.

00:30:05
Speaker 4: Which is kind of important to note again because the manipulation piece, like what grooming is, there's an end goal, and I think at the very least see the difference between those two things, because when again going back to like being a kid and trying to manipulate a parent to give us something we want. We can be really really friendly and we have all our jokes planned and we're so people when they want to get something can be incredibly charismatic, and they also move quick before we even have a chance to ask questions. It's almost like, in their fervor to get that thing, we don't even know what to think. And then they're already part of our group and then we're.

00:30:49
Speaker 8: Like, oh okay.

00:30:50
Speaker 4: It's almost like we don't have a chance to sit around with our friends that were friends before they were part of this and be like, hey, what do you think about so and so, or what's you know, or have a mom come to visit the set and be like, hey, well this is weird. Right, there was no chance it was already happening. It had already happened. And I think that's part of why they move so quick, why they are so charismatic, why the way that they interact is feels so nice natural.

00:31:15
Speaker 7: You know. That's one of the things that Ryder and I have also talked about before, what Danielle as well, but really Wright and I is the fact that if he was telling us all these stories with all these famous names, that means chances are he was telling other people's stories with our names, yes, exactly.

00:31:33
Speaker 4: And probably to get access in another way.

00:31:35
Speaker 5: In addition, that, to me is another thing that I think back on. It just I don't know.

00:31:41
Speaker 7: He must have been because that was one of the things he was famous for, is his storytelling and the people he knew and and how he knew them.

00:31:49
Speaker 5: And you know who you should meet and you know, oh, man, you know who'll be great as this director? You should meet this person.

00:31:53
Speaker 8: This remember used to call him the forest Pump of Hollywood.

00:31:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, because he knew everybody.

00:31:57
Speaker 6: He knew everybody, had been behind the scene of so many famous movies and conversations and like, yeah.

00:32:04
Speaker 5: You knew everybody.

00:32:05
Speaker 7: And what I'm starting to realize is he wasn't just telling us stories.

00:32:11
Speaker 5: He was using that. Yeah.

00:32:14
Speaker 7: So yeah, this idea that I was somehow collected without knowing it is Nope.

00:32:19
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's probably I'm telling you guys this I think. But you know, I saw this person maybe seven years ago. I went to a party and he was there, and it was such It was one of the most intense experiences in my life because I saw him.

00:32:34
Speaker 8: I hadn't seen him for years, and he.

00:32:38
Speaker 6: Immediately started talking to me as you know, old friends or whatever, like hey, oh my god, and I had this it felt like an out of body experience where I'm having a conversation with him and I was finally able to hear the name dropping, like how he was able to in thirty seconds a couple of minutes of conversation with me, where he was talking the whole time, and I was just like, oh hi, where he was like, I was just oh right or strong, so good to see you. You know. I was just talking to my buddy blah blah blah the other day, and we were across the room from so and so the other day, and I saw and like all these names, and suddenly I could see this constellation, this web that this person was laying where what he was letting me know, like the story that he was telling was nonsense, but what he was letting me know was that he was with famous people who rationals who.

00:33:29
Speaker 8: Validate him and and and and.

00:33:32
Speaker 6: Put him in a category of Hollywood royalty or like around all and like he did that constantly when we were on the setup pointments world, and I never saw it because it was so effortless and so and here I was like at this party and like I had to leave. I was so freaked the fuck out I had to, like, you know, my wife was there, and I was like, we have to leave, Like I could not. I was like and because I could see this finally for what was happening, and it was awful. It was like a truly like and I'm sure that was happening all the time when we were back in the day, but to me, it was like, can I be part of this group? Can I be part of this recognized famous person club that he was a part of and that he was a member of, and that I wanted to be a part of too, you know, like and yeah, it felt, Yeah, it's awful.

00:34:20
Speaker 8: The other thing I would say is like, I, you.

00:34:21
Speaker 6: Know, going back to Katie, what you were saying about wise counsel, you know, like I remember my parents actually saying something to me, not about this person. There were multiple people at the time, men, older men, who I would hang out with as if they were peers. That was something that happened often, and I remember my parents like being kind of upset about one of them, being like, why are you hanging out with this guy? Like he's in his forties, what's your deal or late thirties early forties, like what? And I remember saying to my dad, who brung it up to him. I was like, well, that person's kind of like a permanent kid, and that was like something, there was something recognized within these these I can think of like three men in my life that I was friends with who were like they were sort of like childlike and into movies and games. They were stunted, and they were aware of that and would talk about themselves as if like, Eh, I'm kind of a permanent teenager and we as like teenagers who wanted to be older would be like, well, that makes them a cool person, Like that makes them fun for us to hang out with because they're like they're like us, except they can buy alcohol and you know, you know what I mean. It was like, Wow, they're like always living like we live. Now. That's how I want to be when I'm in my thirties and forties. Now, Jesus, no, like I want to be around other adults talking about grown up things like the idea of hanging out with anybody under the age of twenty five makes me sick to my stomach, but not then, like then, I thought it was like, oh, we're meeting each other halfway, like they're permanent children and I'm more of an adult and the other yeah, I'm an adult out of it, and so it was like we're understanding each other in a way, and like that is truly disturbing to recognize.

00:36:03
Speaker 7: Now.

00:36:15
Speaker 6: The other thing, I do think that, like Danielle, your point about the homophobia is so spot on, and I felt that that was explicitly explained to me, and this is really really messed up. It was explained to me by this person, and I remember having conversations with other people that that it was like put into the context of straightness in the sense that it was like, well, a lot of guys are really into younger girls, like that's you know. And I had that experience on a fairly regular basis with people from our show men. Straight Men from our show would talk about you talk about guest stars, hot girls, hot women that were under eight, but they would talk about them with me as a peer, like, ka, what do you think of that? Let's go check out that. And that is all so disturbing in its own right. When this situation happened, that was sort of used against me in that it was like, well, you know how it is, like I'm gay and I'm attracted to younger people the same way that straight guys are attracted to younger people. So you don't judge me for being attracted to or wanting to have sex with this young dude, because that's you know, that would be homophobic because straight guys do it too.

00:37:32
Speaker 8: But it's like, no, it was awful for the sou but it was turned against me.

00:37:38
Speaker 6: It was like used against me to be like, well, if you're gonna you know, and it's true, Like I remember feeling like I shouldn't judge straight men for wanting to be with younger women. But in retrospect, yes, like I would never talk about a teenage girl now, I would never do that. Back in the nineties that was somewhat acceptable or like I still think in some cultures, in some circles, it's still acceptable for guys to talk about like teenage girls as if that's like and I'm.

00:38:04
Speaker 8: Like, I just like in retro like, oh my god, that makes me sick to my stomach, Like.

00:38:08
Speaker 7: Why would they ever think that's That's the thing that's so amazing though, is that when you're a kid, or when you're younger.

00:38:15
Speaker 5: I won't even use the word kid. When you're younger.

00:38:17
Speaker 7: That's where your brain goes is because mine did the same thing. It goes to You're right, that is homophobic. I shouldn't be thinking like that way because I don't think that way about the straight guys, when in actuality, you should be thinking that way about the straight guys. That's what should change, is your idea about No, it's all disgusting, right, yeah, but you don't do that. You go, oh my god, you're right. You're my gay friend, and I just judged you, and now you're telling me I'm judging you because you're gay.

00:38:43
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I'm horrible.

00:38:44
Speaker 2: I feel bad.

00:38:46
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it was it was. Yeah, the whole situation was.

00:38:53
Speaker 7: Again you want to look it'd be one thing to look back and say, hey, we're realizing this was a pattern now and it's terrible, and I'm glad we realized it. And again, I haven't seen writer saw him seven years ago, ran into him at a party. I haven't seen this guy in almost twenty years. And that would be fine if we could use that for our growth. Great, but there there's an actual victim here. And and the he turned us against the victim to where now we're on his team, and.

00:39:23
Speaker 5: How is that?

00:39:24
Speaker 7: And that's the thing where to me, I look back at that as my ever loving shame for this entime. I mean, getting taken in by somebody who's a good actor and a manipulator. You know, Hey, I could chalk that up to being young, and that's the way it is. You know, it's awful, and I'm going to use that as my growth, you know, for my growth as a human being. Great, But when there's an actual victim involved, and now I'm on the abuser's side, that's the thing I can't I can't get over and.

00:39:55
Speaker 5: Haven't been able to get it.

00:39:56
Speaker 8: Clear.

00:39:57
Speaker 6: Though he didn't deny that nothing, he didn't say that nothing had happened. So by the time we heard about this case and knew anything about it, it was always in the context of I did this thing, I am guilty. I am going to take whatever punishment the government you know, decide determines. I am but but but I am.

00:40:18
Speaker 8: A victim of jailbait, right like I am.

00:40:21
Speaker 6: I I saw that, you know, there was this hot guy and I just did this thing and did it all underage, Yeah, exactly, And we bought that storyline. We bought into that storyline as opposed to saying, whoa grown man who's forty something years old, like what the hell were you doing to begin?

00:40:38
Speaker 5: And why are you even in that position?

00:40:40
Speaker 8: Yeah? Why are you there?

00:40:41
Speaker 5: And and for me, he called.

00:40:44
Speaker 7: Me to his house, which I been to maybe twice, so that alone was weird.

00:40:50
Speaker 5: And he sat me down.

00:40:51
Speaker 7: And because I I guess you said this happened in two thousand and one, I didn't hear about this until it was it was way after two thousand and one where he sat me down.

00:41:00
Speaker 2: And he was arrested in two thousand and three.

00:41:03
Speaker 7: Okay, so that's so I think that's when I found out about It was two thousand and three or two thousand and four, maybe even later.

00:41:09
Speaker 5: And he called me to his house.

00:41:10
Speaker 7: So he said to me, Hey, this, this is what's happening. But this is what happened. He's crying the whole here's the real story, and here's.

00:41:18
Speaker 5: The real story.

00:41:19
Speaker 7: And I'm probably I think we'd just done a film together which he got me this role. Because I wasn't auditioning at the time. It wasn't a great time in my life.

00:41:27
Speaker 3: It's just very It's very important for you to know. I know it because it isn't about your mind. It isn't about the mental illness. It's about the fact that he got you a part you were not auditioning because of your anxiety and he got you apart a straight offer for a movie. Yeah, and you felt indebted to him, whether or not it was I mean that was you felt that as part of the manipulation, and Katie can speak to that. I'm not the expert here, but that's part of his manipulation.

00:41:59
Speaker 5: Maybe.

00:41:59
Speaker 7: But I'm again the idea of wrapping up my mental illness into any of it, like, because to me it seems like I'm pointing to my mental illness like I'm blaming it, and it's no excuse, frankly, I'm just.

00:42:11
Speaker 3: Saying, as part of your relationship, he did you such a favor as a solid by getting you a role that you didn't have to audition for, and so as part of your relationship with him, you carried this piece of this very good friend of mine has stuck his neck out for me and to anyone, you feel indebted in that situation. So you had just come off of that movie. He brings you to his house, and then what does he tell you the story?

00:42:38
Speaker 7: Is he tell well, I mean, I don't want to tell the whole it's pretty awful, so I don't want to tell the whole story.

00:42:43
Speaker 5: But it wasn't him at all.

00:42:46
Speaker 7: Yes, he committed this act, but he committed this act after being manipulated himself, after being taken advantage of.

00:42:56
Speaker 5: I mean, you name it. By the end, he was the Saint Jero bit.

00:43:00
Speaker 8: It was just the idea of like this this young.

00:43:02
Speaker 7: Hot person who'd been trying forever to get with this person wore him down after trying and trying and trying, and this person gave in one time.

00:43:14
Speaker 3: That's a question, and we can edit this out. But did he lie about the age of him too? Did he Did he tell you how old the kid was?

00:43:20
Speaker 7: Or no?

00:43:21
Speaker 5: I don't remember.

00:43:22
Speaker 6: Well, what I know is that, like since I've looked up the case, like I didn't realize he only admitted to one thing, but he was charged originally with like a bunch of things.

00:43:32
Speaker 8: Yes, but I never heard about.

00:43:34
Speaker 6: Those other things because back then you couldn't google to like find out what people were being charged with.

00:43:41
Speaker 8: So like in retrospect, he was making a plea.

00:43:43
Speaker 6: Deal and admitting one thing, which is all he admitted to us, but it looks like he was actually being charged with a series of crimes.

00:43:51
Speaker 8: And that's really disturbing.

00:43:53
Speaker 4: And you know, it's almost like the Bill Cosby effect, where like one person comes out and then you're like, holy shit, you know, because if he's that good of a manipulator, which clearly he is, and probably so much so that he even believes his own lives, you know what I mean, in order to come across so calm, cool, collected, this is what happened. To get emotional, but.

00:44:16
Speaker 7: It was I mean, he then asked us to support him and go to court with him, which a lot of us did, and we're sitting in that courtroom on the wrong side of everything, of course, having no idea. This filled with child actors, to the point where the victim's mother turned and said, look at all the famous people you brought with you, and it doesn't change what you did to my kid. And I just sat there wanting to die, where it was like, what the hell am.

00:44:45
Speaker 5: I doing here? Yeah, And it was horrifying all the way around.

00:44:51
Speaker 3: And question again, question, were there any women there. Did he bring any famous women with him?

00:44:58
Speaker 6: I can't remember friends that were women.

00:45:03
Speaker 8: There was a lot of us.

00:45:05
Speaker 7: I mean, there was a lot of us there that were that were very recognizable. Again to the point where the victim's mom pointed it out, and you know, he he had us head writer and I write letters of support to the judge. And these are things we did and and again we did them because we were then lied to.

00:45:23
Speaker 5: We weren't told the whole story. But it doesn't change the fact that we did it.

00:45:28
Speaker 8: And I think part of it.

00:45:30
Speaker 5: Just not to cut you off, no please at this point.

00:45:33
Speaker 4: No, No, You're fine. It's a lot. There's a lot to unpack because you knew this one story and now there's all this evidence of another story and it's with for lack of a better terments of mind. Fuck, you're like what. But I think the big piece that we have to remember, and I know this might be a hard pill to swallow, is that you were victimized in your own way. I'm not comparing We're not comparing pain for pain. I'm not saying no, if you take the slice of pie, there's less pain for others. You know, a lot of people feel like that, like, well, if I say I'm a victim, then that what does that mean for that child that he harmed too? That's we're not comparing, but you were victimized in your own way. Think of the pain that you're enduring now trying to like figure out it makes sense of like you said, the shame and the guilt and like, what the hell am I doing here? This is horrifying. I think a big piece of when you said, like, I take this to grow on my life, Like, I think a big piece of the healing is going to be acknowledging the fact that someone took advantage of you in a situation when you didn't think you were vulnerable and you were and they were like a master manipulator, and so you were victimized in your own way and now left to kind of pick up the pieces, which is shitty. He's a bad person, and it's not saying, oh, we should keep blaming him and shame, shame, shame, shame, But there at least needs to be this acknowledgment, and that might take time. I mean I'm speaking things that might be out in the future of therapeutic work for you. You know, as you try to tease out the fact that Behay, I really liked this guy. I trusted him. Yeah, but then like what the fuck? Right?

00:47:10
Speaker 7: I guess that's why I asked that question at the beginning, and I wonder if it's part of my brain is still trying to rationalize what I saw in him that made him a good what I thought was a good person, which is why I asked, do you think he knew what he was doing? And he because I guess that changes things or does it?

00:47:30
Speaker 5: Not?

00:47:31
Speaker 4: For you? Not for you?

00:47:33
Speaker 6: Right?

00:47:33
Speaker 4: Your experience is your experience, and that's why there is a big piece of healing, like in the WU since we call it like inner child work, But there is a piece of looking back. I mean, like, hey, I didn't know he knew and the blames on him because all I knew was, hey, this guy was fun, he was nice, he was he knew people, he was always would come to parties. He made me feel so adult. I felt seen by him, you know. But then as we look back, we're like, he didn't have any friends that were women, which is kind of strange. He maybe didn't even hang out with people his own age. I don't know, that's a question I would have. Is there anybody he was close with that was his age or older?

00:48:13
Speaker 8: There was definitely a few group. Yeah. Well, and he was very well connected, very well connected with and so.

00:48:21
Speaker 3: Much of that very well connectedness is also part of the manipulation. Like I was thinking about writer, the story you told when you saw him seven years ago, and thinking about how his manipulation changed, and that all he cared about when he saw you was walking away from that situation, letting you know that these other famous, very well connected people don't care about my crime. You shouldn't either.

00:48:43
Speaker 6: Yep.

00:48:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I feel it.

00:48:45
Speaker 8: I still feel it.

00:48:46
Speaker 6: M Yeah, I mean, I'm so uncomfortable with doing this episode.

00:48:49
Speaker 5: I hate it.

00:48:50
Speaker 8: I hate it, and I you know, and it's.

00:48:52
Speaker 6: Because I still feel bad. I still feel like we should not be ruining this man's life more. I still feel that, and I don't, you know, I mean, I think there's a lot of layers to that, Like, you know, it just makes me so uncomfortable, mostly because I don't We're gonna We're gonna air this episode and a million articles are gonna be written.

00:49:19
Speaker 8: We know that's happened.

00:49:20
Speaker 6: There's gonna be variety, there's gonna be clickbait articles. There's and we're not adding any new information to the world. Instead, we're bringing something that's already out there. But but it's not in the foreground, right.

00:49:33
Speaker 5: And it's it's we're shining a spotlight.

00:49:35
Speaker 6: It's not yeah, okay, but like the fact that this person, a convicted child sex offender work on Boy Meets World. It's not like even one of the up one hundred facts about Boy Meets World in the in the universe.

00:49:49
Speaker 8: After this, it's going to be.

00:49:51
Speaker 6: Like the thing, right, it's gonna be, uh, it will rise to the top of like one of the most talked about facts about us and our show, and like, okay, so what's wrong with that?

00:50:04
Speaker 8: And I think I have like.

00:50:09
Speaker 6: I think like heedophilia just lends itself towards to a moral panic and that I don't love the idea that like we're playing into the sort of conspiracy theories around Hollywood, which are ridiculous and so overblown.

00:50:25
Speaker 8: I think.

00:50:28
Speaker 6: I don't like the idea that like we are you know, affecting the cultural memory of Boy Meets World with this, because that's a bummer, because I feel like in my experience of Boyman's World, like it's not that big of a part of it.

00:50:40
Speaker 5: No, Well, but it has almost nothing to do with Boy Meets World.

00:50:44
Speaker 8: See that's what it's going, says to me.

00:50:45
Speaker 5: This has nothing to do with Boy means World.

00:50:47
Speaker 7: This has to do with me now as a forty seven year old man in the person I've become, and this affected me as a person. In fact, the show in any way, shape or form, it does affect my.

00:50:58
Speaker 5: Memory of the show in any way, shape or form.

00:51:00
Speaker 7: As a matter of fact, most of my memories of this person and this manipulation happened after Boy for me. Yeah, so I think I think people will disconnect the two.

00:51:12
Speaker 5: Look, the clickbait articles are going to happen.

00:51:13
Speaker 7: We just saw this last week where I told the story that I've told a hundred times before and it blew up and it just.

00:51:21
Speaker 5: Came out of nowhere. So yes, it's gonna be everywhere.

00:51:23
Speaker 7: But that's also just the culture nowadays, and the people are going to believe what they want to believe. But the people that are actually listening, I think actually listening will we'll see what we're talking about and realize that it has nothing to do with Boy me World.

00:51:37
Speaker 8: But it's not even the culture nowadays.

00:51:38
Speaker 6: This is like a classic thing that's you know, the satanic panic of the eighties. You have like the Repressed Memories movement, Pizzagate, like right, Florida book bannings, like right now, it's like there's like it's a moral panic with pedophilia that is such and you know, there's a reason for it.

00:51:56
Speaker 8: It's like a it's like a unifying it's pure evial.

00:52:00
Speaker 6: It's like one of the few things that we can say is just awful no matter what, because like murder sometimes can be justified, right, Like there are times people can argue whether it's you know, but like sexual predator of children like now, like prisoners kill.

00:52:16
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, when you go to prison they.

00:52:18
Speaker 6: Yeah, people, right, And so in a weird way, it's a rallying cry like unites people. It's like, well, we can all agree that like this is evil, you know, and and so in a way it becomes this like cycle of you know, like self, I don't know, So I'm just worried about playing into that moral panic.

00:52:36
Speaker 8: I'm worried about it.

00:52:38
Speaker 2: But this did happen. I agree with you.

00:52:40
Speaker 8: Right, But why are we talking about it?

00:52:42
Speaker 6: Why are we bringing it up now, you know, and that like, because I watched a lot of people behave horribly during boring mes War, Like I watched grown ups do awful things. I'm not furnishing their reputation. I'm not bringing it up, you know. And so that that's where I'm like, why, you know, and that's what I But then I'm like, why am I feeling bad for this person?

00:53:00
Speaker 8: Why am I you know, because I'm not friends with this person.

00:53:02
Speaker 6: I can honestly say this person is I agree with everything that's been said, manipulative, charming in the awful way, like I can agree with all those things, but I still feel, you know. And then, like I said, I worry about playing into you know, I think damaging our industry, which is an industry I love, Like I love Hollywood. I think it's you know, it's one of the few businesses that's built around art and expression, self expression, and I think it, you know, it's something I care about, and I feel like it Hollywood gets vilified by other forces, whether that's you know, politicians or the church or you know, like I feel like I oftentimes like Hollywood gets pushed back, and I think pedophilia becomes an easy way to sort of like target Hollywood and like, you know, say like, oh see, it's a den of iniquity. That's just awful people, and it's been vilified historically time and time again, and so I hate playing into that.

00:53:58
Speaker 8: I hate the idea.

00:53:59
Speaker 4: Of, like what if we reframe it a little bit. Not to be a total therapist, I apologize, but like what if instead of thinking like, oh, we're shitting on Hollywood, we're going to tarnish Boy Meets World, we instead say, you know, it actually happened. He was part of the cast, but it wasn't anything to do with the show itself. This isn't actually representative of Hollywood as a whole. But the point of talking about it is to educate people so that other people in the world, because this doesn't happen in any kind of vacuum. This happens, unfortunately everywhere, to a lot of different children, probably you know, happening to someone at this very moment, so one child can hear, hey, this is a little weird. This person's a little older. And I was listening to this podcast and somebody told me that that's something I should like look out for. It's a red flag because if you're a teenager, you're not going to ask your parents because they don't know anything. We always think they don't know anything. That then maybe one kid could speak up or could remove themselves from a situation and not feel the way that you guys feel now, or like the way the victim felt in that courtroom.

00:55:03
Speaker 3: And also, if you are not a person who's being victimized yourself in the way of being sexually abused, you may still be victimized by just being a person. This This person can say, look who I'm friends with?

00:55:21
Speaker 4: Yeah, and maybe you have to give you an opportunity to cut them out to be like, you know what, that is a little weird. I have other friends I'd rather spend time with, you know, And I think.

00:55:30
Speaker 5: You can dissect it from boy me to world. So it's also all this happened after boy.

00:55:33
Speaker 7: I mean, this was We've talked about every guest star that's come on the show, and he's coming on the show. I mean, it's not if I could see what you're saying, writer, and you know, you and I've gone back and forth about this. I didn't want to do this either. You didn't want to do this. It's been very tough. I can see it if it was just some guy that was never going to be on screen. It's a story we knew if people wanted to find it, they could find it. But the factor remains that we start every episode with Danielle reading down the guest list and who's there and who's on the episode, and that's gonna happen multiple times. He did like four or five episodes. So it's one of those things where she's right with what she said in the beginning, where we said we were gonna be honest about everything that went on. Damn the consequences, and it's you know what, are we just going to say his name and and then move on? You know, I guess we could have done that, but I don't know if that would have been staying true to who what we what we started doing.

00:56:37
Speaker 3: Do either of you still feel like like the manipulat?

00:56:42
Speaker 2: I mean, do you? I know you don't feel any sort of sense of like loyalty to him, but there is a little.

00:56:50
Speaker 3: There's a sense of feeling like you want to still protect this person, do you, Katie? Can you talk to like are they still being manipulated?

00:56:59
Speaker 8: Is this just is this.

00:57:00
Speaker 3: A sign of like how good this person was at manipulating them.

00:57:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a couple of pieces to it. He's obviously very good at what he does and forging what feels like a real relationship. And I don't want to take that from either of you will a writer to say like, oh, it wasn't a real relationship, but it was a facade of a relationship with goals in mind, which I think we could all take a minute and say, when we're friends with someone, it's just because we like them and they're nice, and we share maybe the same types of music that we like, or food, or we have the same joys. So none of us would have entered into a relationship with a goal, but he did, and so he put together kind of writer. Like you said, when you saw him at that party, he gave you the willies because he was he was doing that web again to make you start to feel like he was important and he should be in your life. But you're not a kid anymore, and you had the ability to be like, yeah, you're like, what the hell is this it? You know, but he's very good at what he does, and I think the past, those past manipulations have painted this picture that we're having a tough time scene out of because you still have those old relationship memories. You have those old situations, and you know, he did go to prison, he did serve his time. You know, how long do we keep beating someone up for that? You know, there can be a lot of different views. Yeah, but I don't ever side with someone who's harmed another person by saying, oh, you can only talk about this for six months, or you can only be upset for x amount of time like that, We would all laugh and be like, that doesn't you can't say that, like, you know, someone harmed me, someone hurt me, someone hurt someone I cared about, someone made me feel like a jackass. They put me in a bad position. You know, those all those pieces of it. And so there's the old experiences that you guys get to have. You get to think of them however you want to think about them. Those are your life experiences. He was a friend of yours, that's okay. That doesn't make you a bad per and you didn't know, you know, you get to have that, which I know it feels like it can't coexist, but it can. But then there's this other piece when it comes to manipulation and abuse, where we can form what's called like a trauma bond, where when you feel like you've been through a war with someone, or you feel like you've been through a certain situation with someone, and you feel bonded to them. And this can happen for many reasons. For a lot of people, it's like, if it's active, like physical, sexual emotional abuse, we bond with them hoping that they won't hurt us again if I'm extra kind today, that won't happen. But for a lot of us, it happens in the fact where we're like, but wait, you know, we've been through a lot together. I you know, we were in this crazy experience together through Boy Meets World, and there were some wild things happening in my life and I felt very vulnerable. And whether we recognize it or not, we can be bonded with certain people through tumultuous times. And you could argue that in this case, with all that has happened and all that has come out, that we can in some ways feel bonded like we kind of and and for like Will, you're saying, like, he got me a role, so we're like, but I kind of owe the guy, like, I don't really have anything to tell me, Like, he wasn't bad to me directly, right, but he kind of was, but he kind of was a little yet.

01:00:18
Speaker 7: I mean again, and not that I ever recognized he was always right. He's always the good guy, you know, the guy you want to be on the set with the guy but that's what he wanted to show up on time, and you know, that's that's all I ever saw, was the.

01:00:31
Speaker 5: Guy with good stories who was good at his job.

01:00:34
Speaker 4: Of course he was, Yeah, And that the thing that I can't it's it's going to take time to untangle. But I want you to both feel like you can do this, that you be like a goal is like to be able to acknowledge, Hey, he was a good friend of mine back then, but with the knowledge I have today, he's not. And those both can exist. I can say he's a dirt bag, but at the time when we were friends, he was a friend. I know, it feels like they can't co exist, But I think that might be the kind of like issue that we're running into, where you're like, but he was good to me, He showed up on time, he was funny, We had a good time he didn't do anything to me directly, but now I know and even Writer like I saw him a few like a few years ago and like, well that I wouldn't be friends with that person today. No, yeah, I know, I'm sorry. I hate that this person did.

01:01:29
Speaker 5: To apologize at all for it.

01:01:30
Speaker 7: It's just it's it's all bad, you know, just that's.

01:01:36
Speaker 4: The wake of abuse of any kind, like the ripple effects go far.

01:01:41
Speaker 3: I think there's also a lot for especially for Will, but I know for Writer too, there's a lot of shame in feeling at all like they should feel bad for themselves. They feel so bad for his victim. Yeah, and that they sided with this other person instead of with this victim. And there's a part of them that feels like if I think of myself as being victimized in it, I'm somehow taking away from the quote unquote real victim.

01:02:12
Speaker 4: That's why I said, it's not like PI, like you're not taking a slice from someone else. The Unfortunately it was not unlimited amounts of pain, you know. There are unlimited amounts pain, you know.

01:02:21
Speaker 5: But I also think there's that everybody's trying to be a victim.

01:02:24
Speaker 8: Nowadays.

01:02:25
Speaker 7: It seems like that should take it from you, I know, but it's it just seems like that's the first thing you go to is I was a victim of this, or I was a victim of that, or and it's just to me in this entire situation, And I know I'm wrong when I say this. That's and I'm still going to say it. To me, there was one victim and I was on the wrong side in the courtroom when he was there, So that that, to me is how I look at it.

01:02:46
Speaker 5: There was an actual victim and it wasn't me.

01:02:49
Speaker 4: Well, and sometimes the words can be strong, like I said, like trauma or abuse can be heavy. Victim might be too heavy. It might be easier for you to accept if I said you were manipulated someone.

01:02:59
Speaker 8: You I mean that.

01:03:01
Speaker 7: I get, I mean that certainly. But yeah, there's yeah, there was one victim here, and I hope he's doing okay. Frankly, god, I'd love to sit down with that guy.

01:03:14
Speaker 6: But I think, you know, going back to what you were saying, Katie about like reframing this in some sort of positive way that can be helpful to other people. I think like the biggest takeaway for me is just you know, we have this notion of like predators as evil people in trench coats, hanging out at schools, you know, wringing their hands and whirling their mustache, and it's just never the case. It's a family member, it's a coworker, and they are the coolest person. They are so nice, they are so fun, they're so and that is just like, that's still so hard for me to wrap my head around personally, because I think of myself as having good radar about people. Like no, I spent like so much of my adolescence being very good at eliminating people from my life who were my friends just because I was famous. I thought, you know, like I was like that was what I got really good at, is like not dating women who just because I was in Team B one found me attractive or because I was making money, or like I was very like I'm you know, I find people I look for, you know, connection with the deeper you know, And here I was falling for this guy as like a true friend, Like I really considered this person one of my close like close friends at that age. I'm also you know, because I was a budding film person, like you know, I was on a TV show but I was learning about movies and directing and writing and like that's become my life. And this person was instrumental in that. Because this person was a film buff. They had worked in the industry and they could talk to me. We would sit and talk about film and movies and like and then he had worked on all these classic films. There no knew all these people, and so there was this part of this like film nerd community, and like it just felt I felt like I was very cool. I felt like I was very much like invited to the cool kids table, and I fell for it. And that's just like I hope, you know, I just like think, like I think everybody sort of gets that, Like, but it's worth reiterating, like it's never the guy in a trench coat.

01:05:32
Speaker 8: It's never the stranger. I don't know, maybe it is, but that's like so rare. It's rare.

01:05:37
Speaker 6: It's merely it's mostly those people who are you know this the camp counselor the priest, the teacher. It's the people who have access to children, and they're so freaking cool. They're so friendly, they're so and that is just oh, it's so basic, Like do you guys know Into the Woods. Yeah the musical, Oh yeah, I love I love that musical. It's like, to me, it's like one of this I think it's like what for like some people what like Shakespeare texts are like I think Into the Woods is like one of the greatest texts ever.

01:06:11
Speaker 8: That the lyrics, it's just I fin think it's so beautiful.

01:06:13
Speaker 6: And and there's these these songs in the first act where Little Red Riding Hood and Jack sing about their experience Jack from Jack and the bean Stalk sing about their experiences.

01:06:22
Speaker 8: The most beautiful songs ever.

01:06:23
Speaker 6: It's like, I mean, I cry listen to them all the time, and uh, Little Red Riding Hood when we look up the lyrics, but you know, they're basically they're describing their their journeys that they had, Little Red riding with the wolf where she gets swallowed, and Jack where he finds the giants, and they're they're they're such beautiful songs because they're telling the story of these fairy tales, but they're also as characters narrating, they're interpreting their own fairy tales, and they're like discovering that the ambiguity of growing up, Like.

01:06:53
Speaker 8: You know, they they they've entered.

01:06:55
Speaker 6: They had this thrilling adventure that changed them permanently, and they're sad about that change.

01:07:00
Speaker 8: They're like they grew up.

01:07:02
Speaker 6: And it complicates the sort of pat like easy interpretation of these fairy tales. It's like, because you look at like little Red Rider and it's like, don't talk to strangers, right, that's like the thing. But she instead sings about being excited. She sings about how I was. I was excited and scared by the wolf, and the wolf changed me in ways that I'm actually happy about because now I'm able to appreciate the flowers. And I you know, I didn't listen to my mom and I went off the path, and I actually cherished that I did that. But I'm also very lucky to have survived. And she has, you know, the famous line is like and I know things now, many valuable things that I hadn't known before. Do not put your faith in a cape and a hood. They will not protect you the way that they should. And take extra care with strangers. Even flowers have their dangers, and those scary is exciting. Nice is different than good. That's so good, And it's like nice is different than good is like it's kind of what we've been saying. Oh and then it goes on. Now I know, don't be scared. Granny is right. Just be prepared. Isn't it nice to know a lot and a little bit not.

01:08:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like ignorance is bliss kind of part and there.

01:08:15
Speaker 6: Yeah, like you've lost your innocence as a child, but you know, and you want that back. We're also really glad that you had this experience. Anyway, Nice is different than good is like one of those like essential lines that I always think about.

01:08:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, especially in this case, right, because super friendly, super nice, it's very different than good. And I agree with you. It is important for people to know that a lot of predators don't look like the big bad man in a trench coat bringing his hands. At ninety nine percent of the time it is a friend, a family member. I mean, I even had a patient years ago who was abused by her uncle for years and was still in love with him, like as an adult.

01:08:55
Speaker 6: You know the thing, I think, even if you've had the actual encounter, that the actual sexual encounter, I imagine you know, people that have been raped don't even think of it as.

01:09:06
Speaker 8: Rape, do you know what I mean?

01:09:07
Speaker 6: Like they just think of it as they think of it as a real love connection or a real actual experience that was and that's that's the real awfulness.

01:09:15
Speaker 4: But we can even see that, like you could apply that same kind of belief to the situation that we're talking about, where like, you know, they see that as a real relationship. You see saw your friendship as a real friendship. Absolutely, And so it's it's hard. I think a lot of people don't understand that when something has been has happened, when you've been manipulated or abused in any way, it's hard for us to make sense of the fact that but hey, I had this relationship, but I thought they cared about me. But now you're telling me this is bad. I don't think that's bad, but this, you know it, I think that's that kind of I guess would be that's part of that internal discomfort that you're both experiencing and why it's hard to talk about and why you're like, I don't even know if I want to. Why are we doing this? Because how do we feel about it? Uncomfort?

01:10:02
Speaker 3: You know, well, Katie, thank you so much for being here with us and helping us parse through these feelings and helping us make sure we were sensitive to any victims who may be listening. And if you suspect or if you or yourself are being abused or suspect someone else's, you can call one eight hundred sixty five six four six seven three. Help is available twenty four hours a day, or tell an adult you trust, like your parent or a teacher