Dressing for Self-Respect: Work Wardrobe Secrets with Fashion Expert Marcy Syms EP 414

00:00:09
Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

00:00:15
Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, and courtse creator. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

00:00:24
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This episode is airing in July twenty twenty five. Sarah is going to be interviewing Mercy Simms, who's was the CEO of SIMS Corporation, which is sell designer and brand name apparel and housewares. She's also currently the founding trustee and president of the Si Sims found But they're going to be talking all about clothing as a form of self care. Sarah, what do you think that maybe you can elaborate a little bit on that.

00:01:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like the idea of clothing as a form. She uses the word self care and self respect, so I guess respecting ourselves elevating ourselves by making sure that what we have on the outside reflects how awesome we are on the inside. And that's not always the default mindset of everyone. Some people might even say the opposite, Oh, it's the inside that counts. But I do say I do feel like, especially as I've gotten older, it does matter to me to feel good in what I'm wearing. Yeah, do you feel like has your approach evolved with wearing clothing that you feel like respects you or makes you feel elevated in some way, or do you feel like things have been more the same over time?

00:01:51
Speaker 1: You know, it's so hard. I do generally want to have clothes that are nice and comfortable, and I don't want to say spend too much time thinking about it, either putting together the outfits or purchasing the outfits, which means that if I like a piece of clothing, I want it to last forever, which unfortunately tends not to be the case. I really wish it were, and I try to buy repeats of anything I love before it wears out. I've had some luck buying on Etsy or Poshmark, not Etsy, eBay sorry and Poshmark when things disappear, but sometimes even the same thing will fit differently. I don't know. It's just people rework cuts, and I don't know. I would love to pay more for stuff that would last forever, but my feeling is a lot of stuff, even nice stuff, doesn't last forever, and that makes me sad. But you know, so I go back and forth on this. If I knew something would last forever, I would be happy to pay for it, But since many things do not last forever, I do wind up buying some sort of like more affordable stuff, knowing it will only get a year of use out of it. But sometimes the nice stuff only gets a year of use out of it too.

00:03:00
Speaker 2: It's true, and that can be really disappointing. I feel like I will spend out to get like the right fit, the right drape, the right fabric. And it's not always a get what you pay for a situation, But I think, within reason, it can be. If I've decided a certain store is like within my reach, I actually have gotten to the point where I don't pay as much. I mean, I'm spending my own allowance, which is like a limited set of funding, but I try not to look at sales or pay a lot of attention to price tags. Now, there are certain stores that are absolutely not within my reach, like Veronica Beard gorgeous stuff, but like if I go to the website, I'm just like, I can not, I cannot pay this much money. But within brands that it's like within reach, I don't look. I just look at like this is going to fit my body, This looks like it will last, This looks like it's made out of good quality. And that's definitely something that has changed. I also have really elevated my workout where I mean, I'm working on it. I have some items that still could I just identify that. I feel like I need a whole new set of sports spras, which is fine, but yeah, that and my lounge wear has definitely gotten a slow upgrade over time, and I've gotten to the point where I don't really want to feel super schlovey, even if I'm just sitting at home. So I'm super excited for this conversation.

00:04:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's right. My workout wear is one of the few places where I feel like I have found something that lasted a long time. My athleta running tights their capris and they have big pockets on the side, which is good because you can put like your keys in or your phone in. But the problem is I can't find that exact one anymore. I don't know they stopped making them, which is too bad. I have several but and they've lasted for more than ten years, probably fifteen years now, but it's sad that I can't seem to find them. So if anyone has favorite, you know, running capris that have big pockets, let me know. I'd love to love to know about this. Do you have a favorite professional outfit?

00:04:54
Speaker 3: Sarah?

00:04:55
Speaker 2: Lately, I've been using this rap dress by a brand called Percifour, which it got while working with Real Life Styles Lannie Inlander as a stylist, and I've worn into multiple talks and I love that it's like v neac but there's no like bra issues and it's a rap dress so it just fits super well. But the brand went out of business, so I can't replicate this dress.

00:05:16
Speaker 1: This is he might have to wear it until it wears such Mark orybe for another one of those. Yeah, I've I Actually I wear these Beta brand black pants, you know, the yoga dress pants. Yes, but unfortunately that's what I bought, like another pair of the pants because they're getting old.

00:05:33
Speaker 3: Now.

00:05:34
Speaker 1: I've had them for like five six years and the cut is different. I don't know. It's the exact same size, it's the same thing, and the cut is completely different. So I don't understand, but you know, it is what it is. I tend to wear a colorful top of some sort and then a black rap. That's my speaking outfit.

00:05:53
Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah, all right, Well, I'm excited to hear from Marcy. So I am so excited to be here today with Mark Sims. She was CEO of sims Core, which was operating in sixteen states selling designer and brand name apparel and housewares to educated consumers, and we'll talk about that. And currently she is a social entrepreneur, philanthropist, and the new author of Leading with Respect, Adventures of an Off price Fashion Pioneer. So welcome Marcie to the show.

00:06:23
Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I think you're terrific and I've enjoyed catching up with some of your most recent podcasts in order to be with you here today.

00:06:36
Speaker 2: Oh that makes me so happy. That is excellent. Will you fit right in as you probably figured out as we are all about ways to make work in life fit together, and you are an expert on all things workware, so I am so excited to dive in. Even if I do, I am a physician and usually were scrubs to work, but still there are other times when I need to look good. So this is going to be personally useful as well as I'm sure for our audience. Okay, So I am super curious because in your tagline it talked about your company catering to educated consumers, and I just want to know what is your take on that, Like, what is an educated consumer exactly?

00:07:15
Speaker 3: Well, it's someone who doesn't get ripped off basically. So when you go shopping, what is your most reliable indicator of the value that you can expect to get. What's the promise of value? Usually that's tied in with the brand name, but we have gone very much into generic or private label clothing, so you have to be even more educated. You have to on your own understand the value of fibers, the value of cutmake and trim, how something is put together. And lastly, especially in our moment, you also have to be aware of taxes and how much is added on to the price tag you're paying because of tariffs.

00:08:07
Speaker 2: Super interesting. So it's a whole layer and tariffs aren't new obviously, but obviously the scope of them may go up and down, and that can change how much that influences the price tag.

00:08:17
Speaker 3: That's a really interesting point, if I may, because when I first entered the business, tariff's was a really big deal in how we negotiated. They were bartered. Tariffs were bartered between countries. Tariffs were negotiated at the customs, at the ports whenever, whether it was LA or New York in our case where most of the apparel comes through this country, and it was a pain, let me tell you, it took a lot of administrative time. Now we might be able to brush this off on AI and have AI do tariffs, but I really doubt that because so much might depend on whether there is embroidery around the zipper, is the zipper plastic, is the hook metal? What are the different really minute characteristics of every garment, and how is each part tariffed.

00:09:14
Speaker 2: It's a pain fascinating because I of course just assumed it was just like whatever percent and oh it sounds so much more complicated than that much very interesting. Well, how do you get that education, I guess is my first question.

00:09:29
Speaker 3: Well, I got it the honest way. I was born into it. When I was about ten, just before my tenth birthday, my father opened his first retail store and he had really become a retailer again the honest way with his father, and he was doing discounting. Now, discounting is when you pay the wholesale price and then you take a shorter markup to the consumer. So let's say you buy something for fifty dollars and you only mark it up fifty percent, so you mark it seventy five dollars. But let's say the other retailers that mark it up one hundred percent are now going to sell it for one hundred dollars, so double the fifty. Well, my father didn't do that. He decided he was going to do what he and he really anointed off price. An off price for us meant and we had to educate people about this. Off price meant below whostsale. So if it was a fifty dollars hostsale at the end of the season or approaching the end of the season, the manufacturer knows what they're not going to be able to sell, and they would negotiate with us for a certain percentage below what their wholesale price was. So we like to say that we would like to purchase within fifteen to twenty five percent of cost, and then we would mark up within ten percent of the wholesale price, so the consumer would always get an incredible bargain.

00:11:09
Speaker 2: So incredibly slim margins, yes, but overall kind of getting the same stuff. Maybe not the first round of picked stuff, but like the second round of pick stuff curt a much much, much lower price.

00:11:20
Speaker 3: We'd like to say that if purple were the hot collar of the season, an umpire, or let's say capri pants with a hot look of the season, we might not get them combined, but you'd be able to buy Caprice in green or yellow, and you'd be able to buy purple in something else.

00:11:43
Speaker 2: Totally makes sense. Okay, Well, I didn't even know that definition of off price, but in your opinion, off price is kind of like fashion's best kept secret. Would you say that's still true?

00:11:54
Speaker 3: I would say that there are some areas, yes, And I would say that there are some areas and some retailers today, to my mind, the best value right now is really in resale shops. Really really, I mean I saw the growth of this start in twenty fifteen and it has just taken off. I mean before that time, it was goodwill, right, but as we went through the time where designer merchandise was not as plentiful, and really it was second and third tier designer. So you have Ralph Lauren, and then you have Ralph, and then you have Larin and then you know, you have all of these iterations around a designer. The idea of real designer clothing, the best value is to buy something someone else owned.

00:12:42
Speaker 2: And hopefully didn't wear very much and took very good care of. Probably from a sustainability perspective, also a very wonderful thing to be doing.

00:12:51
Speaker 3: Fascinating absolutely because fast fashion, which is one of the things that actually brought designer to its knees, fashion is a terrible thing for our planet.

00:13:04
Speaker 2: Totally makes sense. So getting to that the idea that people should invest and whether that's investing extra time because finding things on the resale market can definitely be a little bit more time consuming or investing extra money because you're getting a high end label, even if it's a discount, that still might not be a low amount of money. One of your slogans is that workware is self worthware, so that that time or money is worth it. Can you unpack that a little bit.

00:13:34
Speaker 3: Well, just think about how many hours a week you spend working and in order to feel really at the top of your game, which is always an asset. Whether it's just a sense of organization or a sense of preparation or a sense of you know, I'm going to just kill this. A lot of that has to do with what looks back at you when you look in the mirror, and just simplistically, that has to do with what's on your body. Certainly it helps to have a good body image, but we'll use that with a wellness episode. But just looking at yourself, what colors do you feel look good on you, What silhouettes look good on you, What fabrics don't bother you. I know a lot of people who just can't stand wearing polyester or viscos or having anything like that, or a label in the neckline. Make sure all of those things are taken care of before you take off for an appointment or a podcast or going to work.

00:14:45
Speaker 2: I can see that. I mean, there's definitely a huge difference when you find yourself in something. I think you notice it, especially when you're wearing something that doesn't work, like, oh, this is so distracting, and I don't feel like my best self and I'm adjusting something all day long and oh my God, versus almost not thinking about it or just kind of feeling this sense of confidence. You might not even be thinking about your outfit, but it's like there, and it's related.

00:15:09
Speaker 3: And so much of that too, has to do with the fit. I happen to be someone with short arms, I'll never be able to box with God. And so everything that I purchase, I have to shorten the arms. Even a petite I have to shorten by about an inch and a half. And I know when I wear something that I haven't gone that extra step. How when I enter the room, can they see how long my sleeves are? So it's so psychological, the feeling of preparation and being at your best.

00:15:45
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Well, we're going to take a quick break and we are going to be back talking about ways to shop. All right, we are back, and we've kind of mentioned fast fashion a little bit and some of the problems there, and one big trend is obviously people buying a lot of stuff online, and that can even be true in the pre owned market because there's you know, lots of websites for that now as well as going to, you know, an in person store. I personally have gotten to a point where I am sort of tired of online shopping in general, because I'm five foot one and none of the models are five foot one, and it's like, unless it's a brand that I just know that they fit me, it's too boring because I know that there's a significant chance of sending it back. And then I recently learned that when you send stuff back often they throw it away, which made me just ill. So anyway, what are your thoughts on in person versus online, whether that applies to kind of like an off price retailer, or even best practices for looking for pre owned.

00:17:02
Speaker 3: My rule of thumb in using the internet actually for emergencies, it's great if you can get something delivered the next day. Okay, So we're not going to be talking about that specifically because that's a unique situation that's an emergency, and that's on the side here, but in general, if you're buying something that you've owned before, in other words, an undergarment, a bra a pante something that you know the brand, you know how it's going to fit, you know it's right for you. Use the internet. It's a real time saver. It's not always the least expensive, and certainly if you don't get free shipping it it can really add up, but it does save time and it is dependable usually right, usually always.

00:17:57
Speaker 2: I've wondered the same size of something and then I'm like, this should be the same, and it's not even the same.

00:18:02
Speaker 3: This is true, this is true, and that's happened to me also. So maybe I shouldn't say it's good for emergencies, but it can be, but it can be. But I would say for fashion, if you have not been able to see yourself in something and feel yourself move in something, it's not just enough to put it on and a virtual and avatar wears it. You've got to know how your butt feels in it, how your arm feels you know your armpits move in it, and that you can only do in person. And I would say pick your favorite one or two stores, and don't make it a visit when you must get something, make it a visit when there's a change in season. Go in there. Have an hour and a half, buy yourself a coffee and some personal time, and and try on and don't feel any pressure. You might find a new look for this season that you hadn't worn before and it's just right for you for now.

00:19:12
Speaker 2: I love that, And because I definitely don't do enough of that, And I think there's this story we tell ourselves that we could just everything's online now and this is like the new modern way to shop, and I just I'm personally kind of disappointed in it after doing it for a while. So and yet I don't think we give ourselves permission to just go in a store, which thankfully still exists, by the way, they won't if we don't go to them. Yes, and to go with no pressure every once in a while, just like okay, change of season. All right, let's see if there's stuff that I need or that that fits my needs. I guess because and you know what.

00:19:48
Speaker 3: You could also. I mean what I do is there are pieces that I've kept for many, many years, and those pieces can be incorporated in next seasons or the new look or whatever. And I can't tell you what's satisfaction it is to take something that I wore twenty two years ago and make it look brand new because it's with a different scar, or it has a different top, or you know, the color combinations look zippy for today. So there can be satisfaction in that.

00:20:22
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I found this sweater from like definitely over solid, maybe fifteen years old, and interestingly I didn't wear it because back then I felt like it was too cropped. But that was before all the pants were high waisted, and now it actually looks better and more modern than it did that and I'm like, I'm so glad I kept this special piece because now I like it even more.

00:20:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love when that happens. It just makes you feel really smart.

00:20:48
Speaker 2: Exactly. Well, speaking of smart and buying things that are smart and will have longevity in her closet, there have been notes about several wardrobe essentials that if you are building your or drove from scratch or looking for just sort of like the most important pieces and you're just maybe you've took a break from work and you're going back. We definitely have listeners who had kids and took some time off and now they're back and they're back in person and they're like, oh my gosh, I have to rebuild. What are some essentials that you would start with.

00:21:18
Speaker 3: I would immediately ask you what is your foundational color? For me, my foundational color is black or navy blue. Okay, so every piece that I purchase in my essential wardrobe and this can help you with packing for trips as well. Pick your essential color and have things that coordinate with that. Pieces that you want to have. You talk about black. You never have enough black shoes or black pants, just like never. And then you want to have a black summer jacket which is one hundred percent cotton, and you want to have a black winter jacket. And I'm not talking at exterior jackets. I'm talking well, there's too much air conditioning, or I'm going outside to meet someone for coffee jacket that's like a blazer looking kind of thing. So those would be to start with you. You have to have those basic solid color the foundational color of your wardrobe pieces. And then white, whether it's navy or green or red, whatever your it shouts out at me, this is who I am. Color is white is always a compliment to that, so accent or accessory pieces, whether it's a basic white blouse, it is a white and design scarf that you can use in the spring and summer season, or a black background color scarf that you can use in the all in winter season. These are really essentials. I mean you can actually use those maybe four pieces, the pants, the jacket, the white blouse, let's say a skirt, the black skirt, or the black simple dress. You can actually build on that as a foundation for any wardrobe pretty much today, in any country, pretty much today, in any climate.

00:23:27
Speaker 2: That makes sense because I'm in South Florida where it's warm, but that does not protect us from aggressive air conditioning, and it also does not protect us from wanting to have some sort of seasonality to just how we want to look. So it makes sense that that applies because so much.

00:23:41
Speaker 3: Of clothing I think is also mood. It does create a mood not only within you but around you. And so what mood do you want to create? We get fifteen seconds. Actually that's a little long, I bet you today it's three seconds in order to make an impression. So what mood are you going to create in those three seconds?

00:24:06
Speaker 2: And I can imagine that's especially important as you're meeting new people in a new role.

00:24:11
Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah, you're.

00:24:13
Speaker 2: All of a sudden projecting this image, and probably once who've projected that initial image, it's hard to go back.

00:24:20
Speaker 3: It's really hard to change what people think. Change is one of those things humans just don't like too much.

00:24:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we're going to take another break, and when we're back, we're going to talk a little bit about multitasking garments that might take us from work to everything else. All right, we're back, and I can already picture this beautiful work wardrobe of like high end but discounted our secondhand designer jackets, a skirt and a pair of pants that fits perfectly in the right kind of fabric. But let's say someone also is like, listen, I don't love spending money on clothes, so if I do, I want it to do double duty. I want to be able to go to brunch or you know, maybe wear it to like a party or something. What do you feel like are the best multitaskers out there?

00:25:19
Speaker 3: I happen to really like not denim. I like non blue colored denim, like black, Yeah, black denim. Really in a black denim jacket, you know, I'm just a black bit. You know, I love black, but black regular cut pants instead of the gene cut, using that denim look that can go from work just put on a necklace or a sum sparkly top. There's so much sequenting now that's really fun to wear. There are so many sequins, know, just T shirts that you can put on underneath a denim jacket. They really if you put a sparkly T shirt in your day bag, just put it on in the bathroom and you're a night baby.

00:26:14
Speaker 2: I love it taking your work pants. And that's so true, like a structured black denim that you can't even really tell is denim. Could I had a pair of Genes once that I used to I don't think we were allowed to wear gens technically, and I still wore these for like years because I was like, yeah, they're close enough, and they were. They were a nice brand and they fit really well. And yeah, so that I now.

00:26:33
Speaker 3: Because denim has become so an artisan kind of item with tears and embroidery and painting, et cetera, there is the more conservative look denim, and the more you know, I'm out there going to the flea market this weekend, denim.

00:26:53
Speaker 2: I love it. Okay, so jeans, any other specific pieces that you would say are great for again, going from that to brunch.

00:27:01
Speaker 3: Maybe I like cotton their oblong scarves. Cotton oblong scarves. They can be used around your neck. I have many in different colors. My favorite, of course, is black with small specks of white stars like it. Yeah, so, and it goes because it's cotton, and because of the size, it can act as a showl. It can act as just something around your neck, as something that amplifies your outfit, or just you wanting to keep warm, or you're transitioning from daytime to the cool of night. But because of its size, it can just be thrown over your shoulders, or it can be just thrown around your neck or tied around your neck. It can even be used around your hips or your waist. So it's a very adaptable accessory that I think comes in handy, particularly for travel.

00:28:04
Speaker 2: Makes sense something to have around as a kind of a catch all, kind of morph your outfit or change the mood of it and use in different ways. Awesome. Well, here's a fun question. Any common mistakes you see people making. They're rushing to get their work wardrobe together or to update it, and you know they do some things wrong. Maybe they're investing in the wrong types of things. Maybe they are buying too much too soon, Maybe they are just sort of changing themselves. I don't know, what do you see in terms of some of the most common mistakes.

00:28:34
Speaker 3: To me, the most common mistake that really goes across all societal income, every group really comes down to fit. Because there are those that walk out of the house and because they can't see the back of themselves, don't realize that those pants really are unattractive if you look at the back of you, and they might be fine in the front, but in the back. Probably one of the most common in America right now is the whole midriff area, whether it's for men or women, that somehow we think everything's a headshot, everything's you know, above the shoulders, but the in between between your waist and your you know, above your midsection, we tend to put on weight there, particularly past a certain age, and for those who don't understand that that means you need more material. I think it's a little embarrassing. You know, I don't really want to see your belly button coming over the bottom of your pants. Yeah, I mean at your waist. Those most embarrassing things are to me fit because very honestly, I have a very broad tolerance for different decisions in design and color, but I don't infit because that's taking the time to know your body, to figure out what work needs to be done on the item before you walk out wearing it.

00:30:16
Speaker 2: And to be fair, this is I think what you're saying is not overweight. People should not show their bodies. It's not that if people are wanting this is more the unintentional of they're not meaning to. Their outfit just does not actually contain them properly, and they're probably not even comfortable.

00:30:32
Speaker 3: So that's right. Yeah, that's a huge point. How could that be comfortable? I must say that being a manager, it was really we were very strict about how someone was going to be dressed in the store, and particularly in the area of men's suit or men's suits department and the outerwear department where tailoring was so important, and it was something to teach people who who weren't used to, who were really used to wearing stretches to come in and put a wardrobe together with suits and ties and et cetera. Not so much ties anymore, but at least that notch collar.

00:31:16
Speaker 2: And it is very true that when you see someone in clothing that just fits them very very well. No matter what the body type, it looks better and that does sometimes require tailoring. As a short person, like a lot of times for me, I can't just buy something and expect it'll look sort of silly. And it's annoying to have that extra expense. But I see how it makes sense.

00:31:36
Speaker 3: It is. I always resent it, and as I told you, I need to do it all the time whenever I buy something. So but it really makes a difference.

00:31:46
Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, this has been so fun. I feel like a more educated consumer after this conversation. And I had promised that we were going to share a love of the week this week, like we do every week, and I'll go first to give you time to get your thoughts together. Okay, but my love of the week is that you know, when you go on a trip and you want to have a souvenir and you want to get something, but like you don't want something that is going to just clutter up your house and be ultimately garbage. We have decided that the perfect souvenir for our household on most trips is a mug, because you know, mugs do ultimately not last forever, forever, And I wouldn't say I want to buy one on every single trip because then they might accumulate. But buying a nice mug and then being like, oh, my morning coffee and a reminder of like New Hampshire where we just went, it's just so fun and it's actually useful. So I am into the nice souvenir mug. That's my love of the week.

00:32:41
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a copycat, but you do make me think that I just came back from a trip and I hadn't been away for a really long time, like a year, and I because I was finishing up the book and all that. But I went to Santa Fe for the first time and there were ow much beautiful pottery, and yes, I did buy a mug, but also I saw something I had never seen before that was done by one of the native tribes who was the longest lived Adobe community, and they were showing their wares outside their Adobe homes, and we took a day to visit and I fell in love with this piece of pottery that had to be shipped because it was too big for me to carry it. And it was called the Friendship Bowl, and it had small people on the top of the opening of the bowl and they were holding hands. So there was a circle of these little tiny clay creatures that were all holding hands around the bowl. And it just came. It just arrived on Friday, and I opened it and I loved it. And when I was looking at it, similar to what you did, said and was told that if you buy something like this, you will have a story always about your visits to Santa Fe. And that's a good way to buy souvenirs, something that gives you a story to.

00:34:14
Speaker 2: Tell and that makes you happy every time you look at it, which it sounds like this definitely does. And I'm so glad it made the trip because it sounds incredibly delicate, so like it really was.

00:34:24
Speaker 3: I was nervous taking the bubble wrap off.

00:34:27
Speaker 2: Like please, every person has to be intact. Yes, that's awesome, because tell our listeners where they can find you, and remind us one more time about your book.

00:34:36
Speaker 3: So right now on Amazon leading with respect, it Ventures of an Off Price Fashion Pioneer by me Marcy Simms can be ordered. I think the drop date is August twenty six, So anyone who's listening please pre order because it really makes a difference, they tell me.

00:35:00
Speaker 2: And it sounds like it will be a very fun read, hopefully lots of like cool history, but also learning. Oh yes, I want to learn more now.

00:35:08
Speaker 3: Yes, it's all about sharing experience and wisdom.

00:35:13
Speaker 2: Awesome, Thank you so much for coming on, Marci.

00:35:15
Speaker 3: Thank you. It was fun.

00:35:18
Speaker 1: Well, that was great learning about how style and clothing can be a form of self care and self respect, matching how awesome we are on the inside to how we look on the outside. So this question comes from a listener who says, your podcast seems to be geared toward higher earning couples, and I am a few years away from joining your target audience. My husband is already in that bucket. He's a physician and has been for several years now, but this particular listener is still twoish years out from finishing her PhD. Until then, I make a fairly meager stipend after graduation. It might take me a few years to sort of work up to what i'd consider a robust salary. She says, you've both had life stages with lower incomes and to set your sites on multiple kids. What advice would you give to me for context? They have a two and a half year old and a baby. They're hoping to have at least a third kid in a couple of years. So Sarah, what would you say.

00:36:11
Speaker 2: Well, the five people probably won't like this, but when we were both residents or we were actually fellows by the point that we were having Annabelle, we just didn't save anything, and in fact, we kind of like dipped into the savings that we had in order to pay for daycare and get the highest quality care we could get, and we knew that was going to be very expensive, but we also knew it was going to be temporary. So I do think there's like the mindset that certain years are just like investment years in your future. You're investing money and raising your child, well, you're investing money in your future career, and your particular circumstance sounds less extreme than ours, because hey, you already have one partner who's earning well, so you may not even need to go into debt. It just may mean being a little bit more I don't know, like treading water for a few years rather than putting lots away. But I definitely want you to make sure you're not thinking, oh, well, I'm not earning, so somehow the child cares all my responsibility and how can we be spending on that, because I mean, you have to look at this as like one big picture. These are your kids together and in the end, you earning is going to also benefit the whole family. So I actually don't even know how much mental gymnastics you need to just say, make sure you use his salary to make things work as well as possible when the kids are little, especially if it sounds like you want multiple young kids back to back.

00:37:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I mean there's no magic time to have kids, so I wouldn't worry about that. You can have the kid whenever you have your third, when you wish to have your third, have a fourth when you wish to have your fourth. But if your husband is currently earning a good living, then use that to purchase the support you need to launch your career. And over time, I guess is that you will make a good salary too, and so it will have been a wise financial move for you to stay and finish this degree and get your big job later on. And I agree with Sarah like compounding is awesome. I love the idea of putting small amounts away over time, and the you know, the longer you're in, the better. But the thing is, like when we're putting small amounts in, you have to understand that even at a sort of robust rate of return, like the doubling, time is a couple of years here, right, Like if you're getting nine percent interest, which is high.

00:38:30
Speaker 2: The BA is this the investment podcast, so you can tell total time is eight years?

00:38:34
Speaker 1: Okay, there's the rule of seventy two. So the money you put in now, if you put in at nine percent interest, will double in eight years. Now, if it's going to be absolutely painful for you to save x amount now and it would be far less painful for you to save two x eight years from now, don't worry about it. But don't worry about it, right, Like if you know, as Sarah and Josh knew that they were going to be working as physicians in a couple of years and they would both be earning good salaries that they would be able to save more, then like, figure you will two x or three x what you could save now when it would be painful to save versus in eight years when it will be far less painful to save now. Obviously you have to do that. You have to trust that your future self will be willing to save the money to catch up from this time. But if you believe that is the case, and it sounds like by that time you will be earning a lot of money and your kids will be in school, so your childcare bills will probably fall, then that's fine. It's okay to look at this all over a longer period of time.

00:39:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, and math wise, I mean, assuming that you are putting this money into your career and you do end up with a higher earning salary, I can't imagine the math not working out in your favor. Yeah, you know, even if whatever you're saving doubles. I mean, if it's at the expense of you getting and enjoying life, earning more later down the line, I don't I don't think it would work out.

00:39:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost you. Yeah, enjoy life. That's our takeaway from this listener question. All right, So this episode, Sarah has been interviewing Marcia Simms about clothing and style as a form of self care and self respect. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.

00:40:15
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

00:40:23
Speaker 1: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.