#333 - The Media Got it Wrong: Why Correspondents' Dinner Security Actually Worked

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Hi there and welcome to the Guns Podcast US.

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This is one of the world's biggest gun talk programs and I'm your host Brent Weed.

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Appreciate you joining us and we're going to talk about a lot of interesting stuff here
and my guest right out of the gate I called an old friend my oldest friend and we talked

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about something that.

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Well.

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Roy is older than me.

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true.

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That's true.

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But anyway, for today's show, I called up Ken Campbell, and he is sitting in the hot seat.

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He is of course, the CEO of Gunsight Academy.

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And we all know what he's going to say when we get done here.

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But there's method to my madness.

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But anyway, Ken, welcome back to the show.

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And thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us.

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Well, at least I don't go, let's go Brandon anymore.

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Wow.

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What you just did.

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So yeah.

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Brett and I, for those of you that don't know us, we've been friends since we both had
more hair, dark hair, and regular mustaches.

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I was gonna say at some point I was gonna mention this is gonna be the mustache show if
you're listening you need to go over to YouTube and uh Yeah, we've got some serious facial

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hair going and and the funny thing was Ken last time I was out there and I got out of the
shuttle and you were picking me up I didn't realize you'd kind of grown yours back out.

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So I'm sure at some point somebody goes either copying each other Well, no, it's just
great minds think alike or weak minds.

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I don't know

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my desk underneath the glass from 93 when I had a dark curly mustache.

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And I could tell you why I cut that off, but that would be involved a story with Sheriff
Hudson and this is a family audience.

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And I really can't get into that story right now.

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was going to say you rocked the handlebar and mustache wax when nobody did it.

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So that was the thing.

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No, I don't think we were even that old at that point.

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But anyway, I called Ken because uh besides being old friends and we were baby cops
together, we've had uh a few relative uh relevant experiences.

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in our topic today, which is we're talking about the incident that happened now almost a
week ago at the White House Correspondents Dinner.

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I think everybody pretty much knows at this point that a uh nut bag decided to commit
another act of political violence and he stormed, yeah, yeah.

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Well, he stormed uh the event with uh several guns and knives and

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Apparently from what I'm reading, he decided at the end that he kind of gave up.

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But the reason we're talking about this, aside from just the fact that we've got some
experience in running uh major events, planning events, being part of things clear up and

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to guarding ex presidents.

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uh I thought it was interesting to read some of the media folks.

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Yeah.

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Those ones that were crouched on the ground, hiding a lot of them are saying, well,
security didn't work and we were scared.

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And uh let's

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I thought, I'm going to call Ken, and we're going to talk about how event security really
works.

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So right out of the gate, the first question is pretty straightforward, but I'd like to
hear your take on it.

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What we try to tell folks is, if you get away from rainbows and unicorns and whatever else
fantasy world you live in, there really is no perfect security, and you're never really

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safe, right?

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You are the first responder.

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Okay, where you are?

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Anywhere in this world.

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You are the first responder.

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um As good as many federal, state, local agencies are, personal security details and so
on, you're the first responder.

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So you've got to be alert aware and so on to your surroundings.

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But I can't imagine an event like this that was not a...

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I forget what the term is, national security declaration.

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So there's multiple, multiple agencies, so multiple layers of supervisors and...

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I pretty much saw every alphabet soup agency, including some I had to look up.

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Everybody was there.

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Yeah.

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So I can't imagine trying to get all that coordinated, even though they work together
regularly and they're pros at what they do.

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Anything I say here is not demeaning to our friends with the FBI, the Secret Service, I'm
sure there were DOD police there and the National Guard and Metropolitan DC police and who

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knows what all's there.

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And it's easy for us, know, for me.

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2,000 miles away and I'm basing everything on these little video snippets that I've seen
in the mainstream media and on social media.

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So we're basing it that and this one's more where normally I say the 72 hour rule before
you make comments on something and it's been more than that but there's a lot of moving

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parts in this so this one's gonna be a little longer than the 72 hour rule till things
come out other than.

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I do not think Donald Trump set it up to enhance his ballroom construction.

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Yeah, I don't I don't think so either.

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But, you know, let's get to the meat of this and kind of my my thesis to this entire show,
which is security didn't fail.

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Security worked.

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And for for folks that don't understand how event security typically works, it operates on
a series of rings and there's an outer ring, a middle ring and an inner ring.

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And we're not giving away anything that hasn't already been even in the

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popular press, but the idea is that you got to cross all three of those rings before you
can get to the protected person and do something stupid or horrible.

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And in this case, apparently the guy crossed that first ring and didn't make it to ring
number two uh before, you know, he was stopped.

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So in my book, uh the way he attacked it was somewhat novel compared to some other things
we've seen.

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But the system worked exactly as it was intended to.

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uh I don't think there's any question there.

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But again, we've seen a lot of folks commenters saying that it was a horrible security
failure.

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So your thoughts on that when you see the news, Ken?

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First off, the venue, it's a hotel.

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So you've got your, that creates security problems.

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Cause you've got people coming and going.

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You can't just shut the hotel off and tell the guests, you know, know you paid 450 bucks a
night for your room, but you can't go there.

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So he's a guest in the hotel.

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Fortunately, we live in a country where there aren't magnetometers just to go into a
public building like that.

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So he was able to bring in what appears to be.

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a Mossberg shotgun or a Maverick and some sort of a 1911 pistol and some knives.

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uh So then again, some of the pictures I've seen, he's dressed appropriately uh and uh he
comes downstairs in the hotel and then just takes off like a jackrabbit through an outer

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ring into the second ring and goes past.

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Guys, I've seen where one agent actually draws.

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I don't think he fires.

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But also in rule four, be sure your target and what's beyond it.

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There's some other agents or officers there in the background.

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I'm not sure he had a shot that he could, would have felt comfortable in taking.

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uh And then they got him stopped there at that ring.

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In the meantime, the agents and security details inside the final perimeter.

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did what they did by taking the vice president out, stepping up in front of the president
and the first lady and getting people out.

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So I don't think it was a failure there.

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Now, by the grace of God, it wasn't an explosive device because that would have changed
things altogether also, but still he never made it into the ballroom.

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And I want to point out to the officers, the agents, the security people that were there,
it doesn't appear.

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And again, this is all speculative, but it doesn't appear any of them took a shot.

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And I've seen people, well, why is that?

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Because it's just what you said.

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Imagine it looks like the guys he ran past the direction they were shooting would have
been right into the ballroom.

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It would have been one thing to take down the bad guy, but taking down

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four or five or six VIPs, including one of the protectees, would have been even worse.

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So I have to commend the guys and gals that were there.

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They were ready to shoot, but it appeared to me they all decided to check fire because
they didn't have a clear safe shot on this guy.

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And it appears that he decided he had had enough at that point, but uh it's something to,
you you're primed and you're ready and I've got to do something, but wait, I've got

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innocence downrange.

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You've also gotten, I've heard some people say that, this guy ran right by several of
those agents.

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What he did at a full sprint.

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Um, but there's also a thing called selective attention.

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Yeah.

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There's a scientific principle behind it I don't remember it, but it's you don't see what
you don't expect to see.

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So they're not really expecting to see some guy sprinting through in a suit, you know,
carrying a shotgun.

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um even though that's their job to watch for that.

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um And they may have gotten into a little more relaxed mode.

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We use the color code here at Guns Eye, white, yellow, orange, and red.

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They clearly should have been an orange, um but easy for us to say.

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They've gotten everybody in the ballroom and so they're not having to deal with as many
folks.

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But um the point is the guy failed.

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And I don't think it was luck that it failed.

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I think it's because of the rings of security they had and what all he had to go through.

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And uh those are all good things.

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again, the bigger the event, the events you and I dealt with were on a much smaller scale.

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And it was one or two agencies, or three if we count Secret Service when they come in.

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So, wouldn't have felt uncomfortable.

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Those people in the ballroom, um many of them are used to being coddled.

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There's the White House press.

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Other than when the White House press secretary or the president's handed them their butt
because of the questions they ask, they're fairly well, were coddled and they aren't out

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facing miscreants or...

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just ugly people.

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I don't mean physical looks, I just mean people that are mentally ugly.

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Well, shifting to the inside, you pointed that out earlier.

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I've to say I've watched the videos over and over and over and I am from the standpoint of
somebody that's planned events like this.

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Like you said, Canon, you've done the same thing.

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I cannot imagine having, I'm just guesstimating 20 at least different agencies.

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And you got to think you've got Pete Hegseth, the secretary of war, who is being protected
by his detail, which is Department of Defense.

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You got uh the secrets, as we call them, protecting the president, vice president.

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You've probably got uh diplomatic security service.

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You've got uh capital police.

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Yeah, I mean, there's all these folks.

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That is an absolute worst case scenario because you've got, I don't know, let's say 30 or
40 people who all have security.

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And security is concerned with getting their person off the X, as we've talked about.

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So all of them are trying to get their people out.

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And obviously the president, vice president, uh they get priority there.

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yeah, that's what I was trying to think first dips.

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can't imagine that it didn't turn into, there's a term that starts with cluster.

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And I am amazed at how well the various security teams and professionals got their
protectees either down and out or out or around without uh looking like as we say, stupid

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human tricks.

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You know, there was a lot of good gun handling displayed there.

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Everything, what's called, we call it the hook.

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It's where you bring your pistol out of the holster and you hook your thumb on your
pistol.

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That way, as you're moving quickly, you aren't waving your pistol around inadvertently,
right?

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There was a lot of hook being used.

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I saw some DSM safety banners.

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uh I bought those for all my deputies when I was still sheriff.

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I still carry them around.

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It's a reflective banner that says sheriff, police.

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You can get them to say church security or armed citizen.

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The owner's a gunsight grad too, which is kind of cool.

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That's a side note.

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But I saw several of those in place, so it readily identifies.

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It's just a banner.

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It's like a Miss America banner.

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It's a pouch you pull up over your shoulder, so it's clear.

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So if you're moving with your person you're protecting, it's clearly identified who you
are.

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So I saw those in place.

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I saw...

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everybody with straight trigger fingers whether they were with uh with a pistol with a an
SMG with uh Whatever an M4 uh Lots and lots of straight trigger fingers there with the

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plain clothes folks as well as then the uniformed securities that were there the

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President's protective detail that comes out.

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There was a lot of training involved, which goes back to getting their personnel, too.

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There was a plan, I'm sure, on which way they were supposed to go, and a backup plan, and
a backup to the backup, and they all seemed to follow it.

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Yeah.

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Well, and imagine, you know, like you said, Ken, we've we've organized two or three, four
agencies, maybe that may I point out a lot of times didn't have communication or had very

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round robin communication.

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I imagine in this situation, even though a lot of the uh the uh agency agents were
federal, I'm sure there was some who weren't.

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can't imagine trying to coordinate, as you said, that

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Okay, plan A for you is go that way.

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Plan A for you is go that way.

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On top of all this stuff.

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I just can't imagine.

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Um, I'm sure there was more confusion than what it looked like, but I thought overall.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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radio comes where they they're going to have a central control room that's supposed to
coordinate all that um

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some we didn't talk about, going back to triggering, um, you know, as we saw, uh, one of
the folks that we call the counter ambush people, the, the gentlemen, uh, in body armor

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and helmets with long guns, the first guy, the first thing you really notice is there's
guys in tuxedos coming out, but the guy in with the heavy gear comes out and just stands

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in front of the dais.

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And basically his job is to kind of be a body bunker.

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Yeah.

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also engage in a threat.

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my point I was trying to make though is as far as I've heard, nobody said, there's a
shooter out there.

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People just heard gunshots and decided it's time to act.

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again, we talk about that a lot.

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the occasion, they default to their level of training and that's what it appeared to make.

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Yeah, but think about that from a uh CCW carrier standpoint.

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We talk about that idea of people see things all the time and they don't react to them.

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And Roy and I talked about this in a podcast just a couple of episodes ago of a lot of
folks, it's fight, flight or freeze.

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And that's what most people do.

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And even trained professionals sometimes can freeze or hesitate because imagine you're
behind the president and the vice president and I forget all those VIPs.

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and you think you hear gunshots, but what if you were wrong?

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Because the president himself said he thought it was a tray clattered down.

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Can you imagine the embarrassment that would cause if you come running out there, I've got
this.

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And then you realize, oh, he dropped the creamer.

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So it's not as, it is, it is not as simple as it looks.

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And these guys and gals have to be on point about that.

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And they have to keep their wits about them and take everything.

208
00:16:36,225 --> 00:16:39,103
into account and take nothing for granted.

209
00:16:39,126 --> 00:16:51,546
You also noticed there were a lot of protective folks that jumped up from the tables that
were agents dressed in their tuxedos and they were not looking like agents.

210
00:16:51,546 --> 00:16:58,326
And again, that's part of their plan to have them planted throughout and to be able to
respond from the floor.

211
00:16:58,339 --> 00:16:59,774
Yeah, exactly.

212
00:16:59,774 --> 00:17:03,847
Some of those jumped up also in front of the president there.

213
00:17:03,847 --> 00:17:06,549
And they're just wearing their tuxes, but that's what they are.

214
00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:10,021
They're the human shield till the heavy body armor guy stepped in.

215
00:17:10,021 --> 00:17:17,315
One guy even straddles the table when he comes in, because his job is to take that bullet.

216
00:17:17,315 --> 00:17:18,355
Yep.

217
00:17:18,355 --> 00:17:23,797
And again, you know, we all saw the action on the dais, but out in the audience, there's
all kinds of people.

218
00:17:23,797 --> 00:17:32,949
I would even guess probably a few of the uh the higher end press folks probably have some
kind of security with them, you know, whether they need it or not, who knows.

219
00:17:32,949 --> 00:17:42,662
But, you know, high value people, I know when they go places a lot of times, you know,
network anchors and things like that that are hard to replace.

220
00:17:42,942 --> 00:17:46,987
They'll have they'll have details if not just for that deed for that.

221
00:17:46,987 --> 00:17:59,452
event but for you know whenever they're out and about among us unwashed masses but again
there was there was so many moving parts and it was really gratifying to see these folks

222
00:17:59,772 --> 00:18:09,556
they took care of business and there wasn't a lot of confusion and again I just I have a
hard time seeing the failure and all this not it you pointed it out already guarantee you

223
00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:16,035
there's a whole book of okay this didn't happen he didn't do this she didn't go here we
never made this radio call

224
00:18:16,035 --> 00:18:25,244
But overall, the system worked and uh everybody survived and it seemed to work uh to me.

225
00:18:25,244 --> 00:18:34,469
to your after action, your hot wash, you see what did we do good, what did we not do good,
how can we do this better, what do we modify for the next time, and you move forward on

226
00:18:34,469 --> 00:18:34,699
it.

227
00:18:34,699 --> 00:18:36,830
You know, the windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror.

228
00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:38,961
You know, that's one of the sayings we use.

229
00:18:39,081 --> 00:18:45,864
So you keep looking at that windshield, but you use that rear view mirror to see where you
were and what we can do to make going forward better.

230
00:18:45,864 --> 00:18:47,705
And I think that's what they did.

231
00:18:47,765 --> 00:18:50,806
I'll tell you a quick, funny, protective detail story.

232
00:18:50,806 --> 00:18:54,168
I was just at the NRA annual meeting in Houston.

233
00:18:54,168 --> 00:19:03,908
what a couple weeks ago and I'm down on media row because I'm trying to get podcasts and
so on and very very clearly a protective detail around this guy.

234
00:19:03,908 --> 00:19:09,608
Well hell I'm not shy so I go up use my former title, hi Sheriff Ken Campbell, who's the
detail for?

235
00:19:09,608 --> 00:19:11,948
Oh this guy right here.

236
00:19:12,108 --> 00:19:14,448
I said okay who's that?

237
00:19:14,908 --> 00:19:18,344
Then he looked me goes the attorney general and I said

238
00:19:18,344 --> 00:19:22,614
of Texas and he looked at me he goes, no, of the United States.

239
00:19:22,614 --> 00:19:25,161
And I said, oh, shame on me.

240
00:19:25,161 --> 00:19:26,732
He goes, ah, that's why he's here.

241
00:19:26,732 --> 00:19:28,344
He's only been on the job two weeks.

242
00:19:28,344 --> 00:19:28,924
He's acting.

243
00:19:28,924 --> 00:19:30,945
Nobody knows who he is.

244
00:19:32,087 --> 00:19:36,972
But he had a good, I visited with some of his guys around him and so on.

245
00:19:36,972 --> 00:19:39,013
But it's like, oops.

246
00:19:40,129 --> 00:19:46,621
Well, OK, you've opened the door and now it's time for, as we refer to them as operational
debriefs.

247
00:19:46,621 --> 00:19:49,702
In other words, war stories and BS tales.

248
00:19:49,702 --> 00:20:02,935
And OK, the first one I have to tell and this one may not be something you'll laugh at,
but I'm proud to say I was within arm's reach of a former president, guarded him, you

249
00:20:02,935 --> 00:20:06,226
know, got to see all the sides of that and plan.

250
00:20:06,226 --> 00:20:08,820
You got thrown out of backstage.

251
00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:13,272
Well, no, I refused to leave because I was the sheriff.

252
00:20:13,653 --> 00:20:15,274
They tried to throw me out.

253
00:20:15,274 --> 00:20:23,439
The lead agent came out and looked at me and I'm in uniform with the stars on my collar
and everything all polished up and my chief deputy was with me.

254
00:20:23,439 --> 00:20:27,561
And he looked at that, he said, hey, the boss doesn't want to see you out here.

255
00:20:27,842 --> 00:20:29,213
Made my chief pretty mad.

256
00:20:29,213 --> 00:20:30,814
He said, fine, I'm going to the parking lot.

257
00:20:30,814 --> 00:20:33,725
And I looked at that agent and I said, he's not my boss.

258
00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:34,536
Yeah.

259
00:20:34,536 --> 00:20:36,527
stayed there just to spite him.

260
00:20:36,527 --> 00:20:38,387
Again, it's called the Clio.

261
00:20:38,387 --> 00:20:40,388
I'm the chief law enforcement officer.

262
00:20:40,388 --> 00:20:46,409
As far as I'm concerned, it was my county and we were the main support agency.

263
00:20:46,449 --> 00:20:49,830
Shoot, our guys brought him in from the interstate.

264
00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:56,032
What I really wanted to do was get on the radio and say, hey, when they go to leave, just
let them find their own way back.

265
00:20:59,493 --> 00:21:01,213
yeah, yeah.

266
00:21:02,254 --> 00:21:03,054
So.

267
00:21:03,134 --> 00:21:05,906
Yeah, that was an interesting evening in there.

268
00:21:05,906 --> 00:21:11,139
But boy, the guy uh had a dynamic personality.

269
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,522
Yeah, he worked that bike rack.

270
00:21:14,522 --> 00:21:17,924
That's when Hillary was uh running for president.

271
00:21:17,924 --> 00:21:22,177
uh Her campaign still owes Boone County, Indiana money for the overtime.

272
00:21:22,177 --> 00:21:22,958
They never paid us.

273
00:21:22,958 --> 00:21:26,230
So my shocked face here.

274
00:21:26,253 --> 00:21:37,918
I'll tell you, I've heard, and I just heard this the other day on a podcast is about, this
is totally off topic, but President Clinton has this weird charisma that he just has

275
00:21:37,918 --> 00:21:39,549
people eating out of his hand.

276
00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:46,712
And our County is very uh becoming less so, but very Republican, very conservative.

277
00:21:46,712 --> 00:21:54,051
And I saw people who, if you told them, I'm a Democrat, you old ladies that would have
punched in the mouth for saying that they were ready to have his

278
00:21:54,051 --> 00:21:57,033
babies right there in that gymnasium.

279
00:21:57,033 --> 00:22:02,637
The guy is just the charisma is, is yeah, yeah.

280
00:22:02,637 --> 00:22:13,404
And it was the first time in my life I ever understood how you can get crowds of people to
do horrible things because if he had said light the torches, let's go kill this group or

281
00:22:13,404 --> 00:22:16,286
that group or burn the city, people would have done it.

282
00:22:16,286 --> 00:22:18,697
And it was, it was weird and frightening.

283
00:22:18,819 --> 00:22:20,940
But yeah, we got to guard him.

284
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:28,924
And I will also mention he had visitors backstage, because I had to approve those coming
through the, uh yeah, OK, anyway.

285
00:22:29,145 --> 00:22:33,403
So didn't you guard Miss America or something, or the?

286
00:22:33,403 --> 00:22:35,568
we had a, we had a...

287
00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:46,075
I was sheriff then and again, you and I both come out of the SWAT team, Special Response
Team, and I kept an active hand because when I was elected sheriff, I could no longer be

288
00:22:46,075 --> 00:22:47,455
team commander.

289
00:22:48,656 --> 00:22:53,658
But I stayed in an active role and I trained with the guys and did PT with them and so on.

290
00:22:53,658 --> 00:22:59,721
So anyway, uh Katie Stam was her name and she was Miss Indiana and she won Miss America.

291
00:22:59,721 --> 00:23:05,264
So they had to do a formal handover of the crown to a new Miss Indiana.

292
00:23:05,264 --> 00:23:06,124
So we had Katie.

293
00:23:06,124 --> 00:23:14,396
Stam and 10 or 12 other Miss Iowas, Nebraskans and so on, plus the new Miss Indiana plus
several of that court.

294
00:23:14,396 --> 00:23:21,468
But we were detailed to Katie Stam and then her court because I didn't have no idea on
this.

295
00:23:21,468 --> 00:23:23,209
Now, let me back up here.

296
00:23:23,389 --> 00:23:26,470
To shame on me, I have this impression of they just be...

297
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:27,542
uh

298
00:23:27,542 --> 00:23:30,842
pretty girls that couldn't hold a conversation.

299
00:23:30,842 --> 00:23:32,122
I'm wrong.

300
00:23:32,242 --> 00:23:35,242
I'm telling you, I served the crow, I'll eat it.

301
00:23:35,242 --> 00:23:41,022
They were all very smart, very nice, very pleasant young women to talk to.

302
00:23:41,022 --> 00:23:42,982
And Katie Stambliss especially.

303
00:23:43,342 --> 00:23:51,982
So we were detailed to them, and apparently they have what they call creepers, and they're
people that just follow them around, and we were to kind of keep them away.

304
00:23:53,022 --> 00:23:54,042
So...

305
00:23:54,199 --> 00:23:56,639
We took care of her, moved her around.

306
00:23:56,639 --> 00:24:04,339
And a matter of fact, at one of the venues that they went to, and we were in plain clothes
then, but it was clear we were all cops.

307
00:24:04,339 --> 00:24:07,899
I'm wearing the old 511 shoot me first vest, right?

308
00:24:07,899 --> 00:24:12,459
And this guy keeps encroaching on the space and I'm not moving.

309
00:24:12,459 --> 00:24:14,799
And I said it to him, you're in my space.

310
00:24:14,799 --> 00:24:17,590
And he got this look on his face, is your space, huh?

311
00:24:17,590 --> 00:24:18,990
And I said, yeah, you're in my space.

312
00:24:18,990 --> 00:24:20,010
Step away.

313
00:24:20,010 --> 00:24:21,330
And he stepped in again.

314
00:24:21,330 --> 00:24:25,130
And there's a spot right here, this clavicle notch.

315
00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:31,710
And you know, if you're very discreet and you're standing with your hands up like this,
you come out real quick and take these two fingers and shove it right in that clavicle

316
00:24:31,710 --> 00:24:33,430
notch, bring your hand back down.

317
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:38,030
Well, darn if he didn't start choking and coughing suddenly out of the blue.

318
00:24:38,030 --> 00:24:42,390
And then one of the handlers for this group of ladies said, oh yeah, that's one of the
creepers.

319
00:24:42,390 --> 00:24:48,044
I'm like, did you not think you were supposed to say that guy, that guy right

320
00:24:48,171 --> 00:24:49,545
That would have been helpful

321
00:24:49,545 --> 00:24:57,354
that was a fun detail working with them and again I learned that they are very educated,
very nice young women and shame on me for thinking they weren't.

322
00:24:57,423 --> 00:24:58,164
Yeah.

323
00:24:58,164 --> 00:25:10,973
Well, we also had, you know, I think any cop uh across the country uh has had similar
experiences of not only special events, parades and celebrations, but uh I think we told

324
00:25:10,973 --> 00:25:23,942
the story before we were actually kind of the genesis of our multi-agency SWAT team
because we had gone to uh FBI sniper school, a regional sniper school, and we came back

325
00:25:23,942 --> 00:25:25,379
and yeah.

326
00:25:25,379 --> 00:25:26,231
Atterbury

327
00:25:26,231 --> 00:25:41,538
Camp Atterbury back then nothing was going on except the Navy SEALs did their some of
their training there, but uh we were having a uh big time national uh biker uh trial and

328
00:25:41,538 --> 00:25:52,912
did you know he's out that's total aside and this yeah, he's out He did his time but and
that was a very smart guy but he was the national enforcer for a major motorcycle group

329
00:25:52,912 --> 00:25:55,103
and we were having a trial and

330
00:25:55,553 --> 00:25:58,855
So uh his own people were trying to kill him.

331
00:25:58,855 --> 00:26:01,126
The other gangs were trying to kill him.

332
00:26:01,207 --> 00:26:02,287
I don't know.

333
00:26:02,407 --> 00:26:04,008
Maybe the CIA was too.

334
00:26:04,008 --> 00:26:04,608
I don't know.

335
00:26:04,608 --> 00:26:07,871
But the threat board was lit up.

336
00:26:07,871 --> 00:26:11,312
So we had to buckle down the courthouse.

337
00:26:11,493 --> 00:26:22,219
as young snot noses fresh with our uh woodstocked blued rifles from our uh sniper school,
we said, well, we can do high ground security.

338
00:26:22,307 --> 00:26:22,777
You know what?

339
00:26:22,777 --> 00:26:26,729
That was one of the more fun and memorable weeks of my entire life.

340
00:26:26,729 --> 00:26:36,053
uh Between uh we scared a couple of the ladies that work in the courthouse because they
weren't expecting uh folks peering in their window.

341
00:26:36,053 --> 00:26:37,760
And it's not like we were creeping on him.

342
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,035
It's just what's this window?

343
00:26:39,035 --> 00:26:40,325
And she saw me.

344
00:26:40,325 --> 00:26:40,946
I saw her.

345
00:26:40,946 --> 00:26:42,376
We both screened.

346
00:26:42,907 --> 00:26:44,297
It was it was something.

347
00:26:44,297 --> 00:26:45,177
And then.

348
00:26:46,558 --> 00:26:48,803
Yes, yes, yes.

349
00:26:48,803 --> 00:26:57,571
But I will say that was the first time I ever had the experience we've talked about this
is uh there was a gentleman that I think my trigger we'd measured at five and a half

350
00:26:57,571 --> 00:26:57,857
pounds.

351
00:26:57,857 --> 00:26:59,552
I was three pounds into it.

352
00:26:59,552 --> 00:27:03,275
If that guy had brought anything out, but go ahead.

353
00:27:03,356 --> 00:27:06,671
I won't get to the punch line, even though I almost got there.

354
00:27:06,671 --> 00:27:14,855
a sniper detail on the roof of the courthouse and so we'd come in several hours early just
to start watching and seeing who was there and so on.

355
00:27:14,855 --> 00:27:25,439
Remember the guy that was binoculars that kept looking at us and we'd look back at him and
finally you looked at him and he went and we never saw him again.

356
00:27:25,439 --> 00:27:31,818
He realized he shouldn't be doing that so we were watching the crowd and they were
bringing

357
00:27:31,818 --> 00:27:34,900
the defendant in different directions.

358
00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:41,703
They'd bring him in, they'd walk him over, they'd put him in a car driving around the
block, so they weren't going in the same doors all the time.

359
00:27:41,703 --> 00:27:52,768
And they'd let us know how he was coming in, and we'd been watching this suspicious guy
down on the east side of the courthouse in a cheap suit, tried to kind of look like an

360
00:27:52,768 --> 00:27:57,502
attorney, but he just, you know, it's that cop sense.

361
00:27:57,502 --> 00:27:58,174
Yeah.

362
00:27:58,174 --> 00:28:05,714
didn't look right and we're trying to tell the guys as they're walking the defendant over
and of course they're not paying attention to the radio and we're trying to tell them and

363
00:28:05,714 --> 00:28:16,714
you called me over so now we're both focused on this guy and He got right up there to him
and it's his hand kept going here and you and I the argument would have been who pressed

364
00:28:16,714 --> 00:28:27,389
the trigger first On it, but he opted out of doing anything and then he just disappeared
like a puff of smoke So we don't know

365
00:28:27,389 --> 00:28:35,175
Maybe he was just a guy there that happened to be going in for his divorce hearing or
something and wearing a cheap suit or I don't know.

366
00:28:35,175 --> 00:28:36,916
But everything went well.

367
00:28:36,916 --> 00:28:38,267
The courthouse didn't get blown up.

368
00:28:38,267 --> 00:28:39,278
Nobody got hurt.

369
00:28:39,278 --> 00:28:40,718
Nobody escaped.

370
00:28:40,719 --> 00:28:42,210
We all lived happily ever after.

371
00:28:42,210 --> 00:28:48,924
And we got some great tales and our names are still scratched uh maybe on the inside of
the rotunda.

372
00:28:49,365 --> 00:28:51,186
That's a sniper team.

373
00:28:51,707 --> 00:28:55,089
The statute of limitation has far run on that.

374
00:28:55,107 --> 00:29:05,070
Yeah, you know what, I'm doing some work with our county now as a retiree and one of these
days I'm gonna get up there and take some pictures uh of our signatures.

375
00:29:05,070 --> 00:29:07,811
So that'll be a fun full circle moment.

376
00:29:07,811 --> 00:29:13,392
anyway, back to event security, the whole, did security fail?

377
00:29:13,392 --> 00:29:14,782
I say not, not at all.

378
00:29:14,782 --> 00:29:17,693
A failure would have been had he gotten close.

379
00:29:17,893 --> 00:29:24,535
And even then, as we discussed, there's lots of folks who plan for that and train for that
every day.

380
00:29:24,647 --> 00:29:28,589
And these folks are exactly.

381
00:29:28,589 --> 00:29:36,153
And I will say, though, that the difference between Butler, PA, and the other uh night was
striking.

382
00:29:36,214 --> 00:29:39,916
I mean, that's a different topic, and we've talked about it.

383
00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:45,899
But the way things were handled then versus now, just pretty much night and day
difference, wouldn't you say?

384
00:29:45,908 --> 00:29:47,879
Yes, without fail.

385
00:29:47,879 --> 00:29:49,940
It was coordinated.

386
00:29:49,940 --> 00:29:57,404
The agents and an officer seemed to be very strong in what they were doing, knew what they
were doing.

387
00:29:57,944 --> 00:29:59,645
And it was impressive.

388
00:29:59,645 --> 00:30:04,848
And I'll tell you something else that I think is kind of neat is how President Trump
reacted to it all.

389
00:30:04,848 --> 00:30:08,269
Now granted, this is what the third attempt on him.

390
00:30:08,269 --> 00:30:11,871
he's kind of like, eh, been there, done that type thing.

391
00:30:11,871 --> 00:30:14,642
But he reacted strongly to it.

392
00:30:14,642 --> 00:30:15,713
They left.

393
00:30:15,733 --> 00:30:19,834
And they say, well no, we're going to go back in and have dinner.

394
00:30:19,834 --> 00:30:20,985
No, no sir, we can't.

395
00:30:20,985 --> 00:30:21,775
Yeah, we are.

396
00:30:21,775 --> 00:30:23,125
And finally they said, we cannot.

397
00:30:23,125 --> 00:30:24,956
We don't know that it was a lone wolf.

398
00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:33,238
But what two hours later he goes back to the Oval Office, uh his team surrounding him.

399
00:30:33,238 --> 00:30:35,409
And then two hours later he's doing a press conference.

400
00:30:35,409 --> 00:30:41,613
So the country knew things were still on track and he was okay and everybody was okay.

401
00:30:41,613 --> 00:30:45,165
And whether you like him or not, I really don't care whether you like him or not.

402
00:30:45,165 --> 00:30:50,098
Point is, he showed a strong leader and I don't think the last president could have done
that.

403
00:30:50,698 --> 00:30:52,199
I'll take politics out of it.

404
00:30:52,199 --> 00:30:55,981
I don't think he was capable of doing that.

405
00:30:56,185 --> 00:30:56,975
Yeah.

406
00:30:57,055 --> 00:30:58,776
And we kind of talked about it.

407
00:30:58,776 --> 00:31:07,600
I wasn't going to go down this road, but there was a writer and I believe for the Detroit
Free Press, I think, and I didn't I don't remember her name, but she wrote a pretty good

408
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,081
article that you can find it online.

409
00:31:10,081 --> 00:31:13,322
And I think it's behind a paywall most places, but I found it.

410
00:31:13,322 --> 00:31:19,845
And but she talked about how she was there and she was amazed at she said it was men
mostly.

411
00:31:19,845 --> 00:31:24,346
uh So that was her words, not my.

412
00:31:25,327 --> 00:31:25,822
Yeah.

413
00:31:25,822 --> 00:31:30,253
The women protective detail, they just blend in more than the men do.

414
00:31:30,513 --> 00:31:42,292
But she was amazed at the guys and she knew some of them who were, know, war
correspondents, former military, former law enforcement, but just guys in general.

415
00:31:42,313 --> 00:31:49,298
And I'll use that term loosely to include any prepared American who is not cowed by
terrorists.

416
00:31:49,318 --> 00:31:55,235
She was amazed that they stood up and it was just this side of kind of like, uh

417
00:31:55,235 --> 00:32:09,911
let's now we're going to do something you you and block that and go here and and it was
interesting her uh her uh awe at seeing people do that who didn't have a specific duty

418
00:32:09,911 --> 00:32:21,526
they just did it because that's what they are and to me whether it's a guy or a gal yeah
exactly exactly and that's what I think the the audience of our podcast the folks that

419
00:32:21,526 --> 00:32:25,167
attend Gunsight Academy everybody we talked to

420
00:32:25,293 --> 00:32:30,307
That's the kind of folks that they are and they strive to be.

421
00:32:30,307 --> 00:32:35,912
And I just thought it was interesting to see somebody who I'm guessing her politics are
completely different than mine.

422
00:32:36,072 --> 00:32:45,721
But she was just truly in awe that, you know, I think it was the first time a lot of these
folks had had direct, so to speak, threats on their lives.

423
00:32:45,721 --> 00:32:52,926
And that's uh a moment that you start thinking about things, because I saw several stories
about that too.

424
00:32:52,991 --> 00:32:58,022
Well, let me throw it in this way, and I'm not doing this to promote gun sight, okay?

425
00:32:58,022 --> 00:33:00,543
But we started seeing, well, I'm not.

426
00:33:00,763 --> 00:33:07,405
The example here is that we started seeing more and more clients that were non-traditional
gun owners.

427
00:33:08,005 --> 00:33:10,446
And we changed our format a little bit.

428
00:33:10,446 --> 00:33:13,507
We added a class, right now it's called Day Zero.

429
00:33:13,507 --> 00:33:21,429
We're gonna market it with a different name later on, with pistols and then with carbines,
because people are recognizing the world's not.

430
00:33:21,793 --> 00:33:23,724
the place they thought it once was.

431
00:33:23,724 --> 00:33:28,355
It's not 1970s when we grew up or 80s or whatever.

432
00:33:28,355 --> 00:33:34,536
It's a different place with Defund the Police and the riots and these crazies that are out
there.

433
00:33:34,717 --> 00:33:36,977
So they had to learn to defend themselves.

434
00:33:36,977 --> 00:33:47,600
So we're seeing more and more of that crowd and they're not the traditional gun owners,
not the traditional thinkers that we've had in the past.

435
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,560
that,

436
00:33:50,374 --> 00:34:00,796
a correspondent may now have a life-altering experience and may want to think about
getting their own training somewhere.

437
00:34:00,943 --> 00:34:09,123
Yeah, well, not to go down because this is a whole nother topic, but I know you've had
several reporters at gun sites specifically.

438
00:34:09,123 --> 00:34:14,399
I think most of them kind of wanted to maybe do a hit piece, so to speak.

439
00:34:14,399 --> 00:34:21,787
But you've definitely had a few that have walked away with a whole new appreciation that,
wow, you know, maybe this is something.

440
00:34:22,351 --> 00:34:27,712
we vetted a group from France and uh we didn't vet them properly enough.

441
00:34:27,712 --> 00:34:28,792
It was a hit piece.

442
00:34:28,792 --> 00:34:30,213
It really was.

443
00:34:30,393 --> 00:34:40,510
Explained on the story, it told how I was wrong that there's, there is not more gun
violence in Mexico than there is in the U S even though Mexico has strong gun laws.

444
00:34:40,510 --> 00:34:49,588
And yeah, so that was about the highlight of the whole piece, but we'll get some folks
that come in that are again, not, not traditional gun owners.

445
00:34:49,770 --> 00:34:54,072
They're more of the really strong liberal mindset.

446
00:34:54,292 --> 00:35:01,525
But then they've come to a recognition, we need to learn to protect ourselves because
things like this dinner happens.

447
00:35:01,525 --> 00:35:04,046
And you just may have been in the lobby of the hotel, right?

448
00:35:04,046 --> 00:35:05,736
You're there sightseeing.

449
00:35:06,077 --> 00:35:09,158
So they need to learn to be able to protect themselves and their families.

450
00:35:09,158 --> 00:35:11,239
And we're seeing more and more of those.

451
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:17,862
And that's an opportunity for those of us in this audience, they're thinking this way.

452
00:35:18,954 --> 00:35:30,944
But this gives us a chance to make these other folks realize we put our pants on the same
way as they do and we're not what some of the mainstream media portrays us to be.

453
00:35:31,025 --> 00:35:33,246
And that's okay.

454
00:35:33,347 --> 00:35:40,110
Yep, that is absolutely okay and a great place to kind of draw a conclusion on this.

455
00:35:40,110 --> 00:35:42,324
And of course, we have to go there.

456
00:35:42,324 --> 00:35:46,711
Now I'm going to turn you loose, Tell me about Gunsight.

457
00:35:46,875 --> 00:35:47,705
I can do that.

458
00:35:47,705 --> 00:35:49,675
And let me dovetail that in.

459
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:53,716
We are in uh consultation, well, past consultations.

460
00:35:53,716 --> 00:36:06,076
We're trying to sort out the dates for maybe yet this year, but certainly 2027 with our
friend Steve Turani, who has a lot, he's a longtime gunsight range master uh who has

461
00:36:06,076 --> 00:36:12,070
multiple experience in executive protection and also a gentleman, including Gardner Trump.

462
00:36:12,070 --> 00:36:14,357
And then another gentleman by the name of Wayne Black.

463
00:36:14,357 --> 00:36:18,377
Wayne Black and Associates who comes from that world.

464
00:36:19,117 --> 00:36:23,477
And we're gonna be doing an executive protection class here at Gunsite.

465
00:36:23,477 --> 00:36:29,517
You're gonna have to have a five day prerequisite, it's called 250 pistol in order to take
the class.

466
00:36:29,517 --> 00:36:41,677
But it's not so much for the United Healthcare executive or, but it's what are you gonna
do to take care of your family when you're at whatever venue it is.

467
00:36:41,677 --> 00:36:42,597
So.

468
00:36:43,221 --> 00:36:45,021
because we've seen changes.

469
00:36:45,061 --> 00:36:52,701
yeah, Gunsight is, getting back to your original question, we're the world's oldest and
largest privately owned firearms training academy.

470
00:36:52,701 --> 00:36:59,221
This is our 50th year of business.

471
00:36:59,221 --> 00:37:04,681
And it's not Gunsight 1976, 2026, that's an epitaph on a tombstone.

472
00:37:04,681 --> 00:37:10,577
It's Gunsight the first 50 years, because we're looking at that windshield as we're
driving down the road.

473
00:37:10,577 --> 00:37:13,018
I had an instructor come in today.

474
00:37:13,018 --> 00:37:20,461
He was an instructor here at Gunsite from 1979 until 1991 and he had not been back since.

475
00:37:20,461 --> 00:37:29,005
He'd gone to work overseas for the companies he worked for and he drove in and he's like,
where am I?

476
00:37:30,126 --> 00:37:38,291
Because we've had so many changes here and even if you've not been here in six months with
the buildings that are gone and the new buildings that are up.

477
00:37:38,291 --> 00:37:46,952
We keep moving forward and for the folks that say we're the Southwest Dinosaur League and
we're fuds and so on, you've never been here.

478
00:37:46,952 --> 00:37:55,023
You foolishly read the comments on the internet and as our late friend Pat Rogers says,
that's the disinformation cow path.

479
00:37:55,023 --> 00:37:57,295
It is not the information super high.

480
00:37:58,201 --> 00:38:04,094
Well, we occasionally get accused of being fuds here on the guns podcast us and we've
embraced that.

481
00:38:04,094 --> 00:38:07,046
We're going to have a t-shirt out soon that says lethal fuds.

482
00:38:07,046 --> 00:38:09,077
That came from one of our viewers.

483
00:38:09,137 --> 00:38:10,197
So.

484
00:38:12,499 --> 00:38:13,419
Excellent.

485
00:38:13,419 --> 00:38:25,206
Well, I mean, circling back to kind of the tail end of what we were talking about, I've
never understood why, why preparedness and protecting others is considered a conservative

486
00:38:25,206 --> 00:38:26,426
slash right wing.

487
00:38:26,426 --> 00:38:27,649
uh

488
00:38:27,649 --> 00:38:28,700
outlook.

489
00:38:29,001 --> 00:38:36,253
I mean, folks on the left and liberals and progressives, they love their families as much
as we do, and they don't want to see them harmed.

490
00:38:36,253 --> 00:38:38,395
So I'm not sure why.

491
00:38:39,258 --> 00:38:42,910
point being, celebrate these folks.

492
00:38:42,910 --> 00:38:49,732
of police are going to be there to try to help you in seven to 12 to 15 minutes.

493
00:38:50,352 --> 00:38:52,012
That's what it's going to take.

494
00:38:52,113 --> 00:38:55,043
So I go back to what I said 30 minutes ago.

495
00:38:55,043 --> 00:38:57,094
You are the first responder.

496
00:38:57,094 --> 00:39:06,257
You've got it, whether it's because the tornado is coming through, because there's the bad
guy trying to knock at the door or whatever it is, you're the first responder.

497
00:39:06,257 --> 00:39:07,817
You need to have a plan.

498
00:39:08,450 --> 00:39:10,755
You need to know how to change your own tires.

499
00:39:10,755 --> 00:39:13,080
You need to have a fire extinguisher.

500
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,724
You need to know how to use it.

501
00:39:14,724 --> 00:39:16,727
All these silly things.

502
00:39:16,812 --> 00:39:26,953
that we talk about repeatedly on the guns podcast us and get well you're just a fad well
you know we exactly

503
00:39:26,953 --> 00:39:29,717
take care of my family if I need to.

504
00:39:29,717 --> 00:39:39,980
you know, I've got extra, you know, well how many trips have you and I taken, whether it's
backpacking or the shot showing we've got extra water, we've got first aid, we've got guns

505
00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:41,549
and ammo, we've got...

506
00:39:41,549 --> 00:39:45,361
Well, the story and I think we did tell it before was one of my favorites.

507
00:39:45,361 --> 00:39:52,126
were all backpacking up to the top of Mount LaConte, which is the second highest mountain
in Eastern United States.

508
00:39:52,126 --> 00:39:56,489
And one of the ladies in our group, she, I forget, she sprained her ankle, hurt her ankle.

509
00:39:56,489 --> 00:40:04,274
We nearly got in a fist fight trying to everybody whipped out their first aid kits and we
were going to call for dust.

510
00:40:04,274 --> 00:40:06,403
It was almost comical.

511
00:40:06,403 --> 00:40:11,242
that we were ready to do something and she was like, I just need a bandage, okay?

512
00:40:11,263 --> 00:40:22,127
Though the comical one, well there's been several, was when the weather was so foul and
blowing and sleet and we took a wrong turn on the trail and we finally get to this peak

513
00:40:22,127 --> 00:40:24,744
and it's like, go back, go back.

514
00:40:25,744 --> 00:40:29,097
I actually said, the mountain is trying to kill us.

515
00:40:29,097 --> 00:40:40,056
Yeah, yeah, we missed a turn and then we had to go across that one part of the trail where
you hold on to the cable and it was slick and icy and I swear to goodness my hand prints

516
00:40:40,056 --> 00:40:51,735
are still in that steel cable from where I was gripping it because we got the packs on and
the wind blowing but or when we drew down on the Yeah.

517
00:40:52,796 --> 00:40:54,172
But we were ready.

518
00:40:54,172 --> 00:40:55,023
Yeah, we were.

519
00:40:55,023 --> 00:41:04,529
Well, I was going to say if you had slid off the side of the mountain, if that cable let
loose, I would have been able to call in our grid coordinates and I would have, I could

520
00:41:04,529 --> 00:41:10,864
have thrown like a uh splint over the side and hope maybe it landed near your body because
that would have been a long one.

521
00:41:10,864 --> 00:41:14,791
come try to get my bodies because you wanted the stuff in my pack.

522
00:41:14,791 --> 00:41:17,595
You would already mentally split my gear.

523
00:41:17,595 --> 00:41:18,435
So.

524
00:41:18,613 --> 00:41:21,104
Oh, goodness.

525
00:41:21,104 --> 00:41:23,915
Well, Ken Campbell, the CEO of Gunsight.

526
00:41:23,915 --> 00:41:25,096
It's always great to talk to you.

527
00:41:25,096 --> 00:41:26,836
We don't get to talk enough.

528
00:41:26,836 --> 00:41:33,779
And as we've often said, we know where each other's bodies are buried and he knows the
combination to my gun safe.

529
00:41:33,819 --> 00:41:36,881
So, uh yeah, yeah.

530
00:41:36,881 --> 00:41:39,692
So we need to have another adventure soon.

531
00:41:39,692 --> 00:41:42,947
And now by virtue of where we're at in life.

532
00:41:42,947 --> 00:41:50,146
I'll bring along a video camera and people can actually see, do they embellish the truth
or does it really, does it really go south?

533
00:41:50,146 --> 00:41:55,668
you because I know you'll get back there because I know I'll be going back and I'll try to
take some video.

534
00:41:55,668 --> 00:41:57,238
I'm going on a black bear hunt.

535
00:41:57,238 --> 00:42:01,279
I'll be there next month up in Northwest Canada.

536
00:42:01,279 --> 00:42:08,031
I know I'm not doing that, but you know after you see my pictures, you'll be like, okay,
we're going next year or whatever.

537
00:42:08,031 --> 00:42:13,951
But now we need to, and I'll be back in Indiana in July because a crass commercial
message.

538
00:42:13,951 --> 00:42:23,071
We're doing a three day gunsight pistol class at the Boone County Indiana Sheriff's Office
range and Ken gets to come in off the bench and teach the class.

539
00:42:23,071 --> 00:42:28,678
I don't get to teach much anymore and I miss that terribly, but that's okay.

540
00:42:28,678 --> 00:42:35,395
Just like you've, for a long time you weren't able to write as much and I think you're
getting back into that again.

541
00:42:35,395 --> 00:42:38,978
and remembering how much I enjoy doing it.

542
00:42:38,978 --> 00:42:49,485
So, well, anyway, it's great to catch up with you, Ken Campbell, and I'll be out at
Gunsite one of these days, and I know you'll be back here and we'll polish a few more lies

543
00:42:49,485 --> 00:42:51,287
and come up with a few more stories.

544
00:42:51,287 --> 00:42:51,864
So.

545
00:42:51,864 --> 00:42:56,369
well in the meantime, when are you coming to Gunscipe?

546
00:42:56,847 --> 00:42:57,714
as always.

547
00:42:57,714 --> 00:42:58,988
Well, thanks again.

548
00:43:03,375 --> 00:43:04,617
Okay, cool.