224 | CCPT and Autism: Child-Centered Play Therapy with Children on the Spectrum

0
00:00:00,409 --> 00:00:04,289
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

1
00:00:04,300 --> 00:00:08,119
Your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

2
00:00:08,409 --> 00:00:10,550
Hi, I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks, The Kid Counselor.

3
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,630
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

4
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,079
a master class in child-centered Play therapy

5
00:00:15,170 --> 00:00:17,420
and practical support and application for your

6
00:00:17,430 --> 00:00:19,489
work with children and their families.

7
00:00:19,559 --> 00:00:23,270
In today's episode. I am answering a question from Michelle in Texas

8
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,270
and her question is about CCPT and autism

9
00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:33,279
and what that intersection looks like and if there's considerations

10
00:00:33,439 --> 00:00:34,349
when

11
00:00:34,830 --> 00:00:38,139
we are CCPT and we're working with kids on the spectrum.

12
00:00:38,290 --> 00:00:39,849
So I'm really excited about this.

13
00:00:39,860 --> 00:00:42,259
We talk about this a lot in the coaching programs and

14
00:00:42,270 --> 00:00:44,330
we've talked about it in the Collective a little bit,

15
00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:47,900
but I don't think it's ever been explicitly discussed on the podcast.

16
00:00:47,909 --> 00:00:50,590
So Michelle in Texas, thank you so much for the question.

17
00:00:50,919 --> 00:00:51,990
So she says,

18
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,470
I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts

19
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,930
on the intersection of autism and CCPT

20
00:00:56,290 --> 00:00:59,790
such as if and how themes and stages present differently

21
00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,629
or anything clinicians should consider as they are CCPT with autistic children.

22
00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,809
I recognize that autism is a truly diverse spectrum.

23
00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:11,190
So answering this may be tricky but I'm interested in your insight

24
00:01:12,139 --> 00:01:15,199
and then she says she's soon to be fully licensed LPC.

25
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,970
And the podcasts have been one of the

26
00:01:16,980 --> 00:01:19,239
most beneficial sources for her indirect hours.

27
00:01:19,250 --> 00:01:19,580
So

28
00:01:19,839 --> 00:01:23,050
I'm so glad that you're almost licensed Michelle. That's a huge accomplishment.

29
00:01:23,059 --> 00:01:23,970
Congratulations.

30
00:01:24,169 --> 00:01:26,610
And I'm glad that the podcast has been helpful to you

31
00:01:26,620 --> 00:01:29,120
and actually to all of you the feedback that you gave me

32
00:01:29,589 --> 00:01:34,099
in your emails and in our conversations about how much this has been valuable to you.

33
00:01:34,110 --> 00:01:35,250
That really means a lot

34
00:01:35,410 --> 00:01:37,400
you all are, why I do this.

35
00:01:37,610 --> 00:01:41,959
And I hope that you know that every moment that I spend in front of this microphone,

36
00:01:41,970 --> 00:01:44,500
I'm thinking and picturing you all

37
00:01:44,779 --> 00:01:47,199
and your work and your,

38
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,040
your passion for this. And I'm just really grateful that we get to do this together.

39
00:01:51,540 --> 00:01:53,040
All righty. So Michelle,

40
00:01:53,569 --> 00:01:55,550
I think as a general rule,

41
00:01:55,559 --> 00:02:00,250
we know that children on the spectrum are going to interact differently,

42
00:02:00,449 --> 00:02:02,230
they're going to play differently.

43
00:02:02,529 --> 00:02:05,269
And therefore the process is a little bit different

44
00:02:06,370 --> 00:02:07,739
as we

45
00:02:07,930 --> 00:02:09,740
actually let me give a disclaimer first.

46
00:02:09,750 --> 00:02:11,720
I feel like I need to be really transparent here.

47
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,839
I have some therapists at my center that are what I

48
00:02:15,850 --> 00:02:18,619
would consider to be very well versed in ASD.

49
00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:21,860
And they have a lot of experience with children on the

50
00:02:21,869 --> 00:02:24,860
spectrum and a lot of their work has been with autism

51
00:02:25,110 --> 00:02:27,220
that is not my wheelhouse.

52
00:02:27,229 --> 00:02:30,149
So while I have worked with children on the spectrum, of course,

53
00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:34,850
and I've supported lots of families in a lot of capacities related to autism.

54
00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:37,429
I just wanna be really clear, I would not

55
00:02:37,649 --> 00:02:39,130
consider myself an expert in this.

56
00:02:39,380 --> 00:02:43,990
So, although I have some experience and I can share from that personal experience,

57
00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,330
there might be others who would have maybe a

58
00:02:47,339 --> 00:02:49,289
little bit more to add or something like that.

59
00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:51,570
So I guess what I'm saying is my disclaimer.

60
00:02:51,649 --> 00:02:53,179
I don't know that this is the most

61
00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:55,910
comprehensive answer or the most thorough response,

62
00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:56,300
but

63
00:02:56,610 --> 00:03:00,429
I will just share with you my experience and I hope that that suffices. And then

64
00:03:00,619 --> 00:03:04,020
for those of you who may have a really extensive background in autism

65
00:03:04,669 --> 00:03:05,570
and ASD,

66
00:03:05,580 --> 00:03:08,610
please shoot me an email and fill me in on what I might have

67
00:03:08,619 --> 00:03:12,080
missed or what might be helpful and I can do a follow up episode

68
00:03:12,339 --> 00:03:16,240
so that I can kind of illustrate a little bit more helpfully if

69
00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:18,850
you feel like I didn't cover some things that should have been said.

70
00:03:18,860 --> 00:03:21,740
So please reach out brenna@thekidcounselor.com

71
00:03:21,860 --> 00:03:24,880
if you want to weigh in on CCPT and ASD.

72
00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:28,000
But Michelle here are my thoughts based on my experience,

73
00:03:28,660 --> 00:03:29,460
they

74
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,369
tend to be slower in the process.

75
00:03:33,119 --> 00:03:35,660
And what I mean by that is we typically understand,

76
00:03:35,869 --> 00:03:40,119
you know, we have the stages and the phases and although they do not go 1234,

77
00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:43,259
and although they're not necessarily linear in fashion.

78
00:03:44,119 --> 00:03:48,270
Kids do progress at a pretty standard rate give or take,

79
00:03:48,539 --> 00:03:53,589
right? We can kind of anticipate how long a child's going to be in initiation,

80
00:03:53,729 --> 00:03:57,610
how long a child will be in resistance? How long a child will be in work?

81
00:03:57,619 --> 00:04:00,750
And then termination is static. That's a 54321 countdown.

82
00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:06,259
We can anticipate where a child will naturally fall. There are always outliers,

83
00:04:06,389 --> 00:04:07,970
there are always kids that

84
00:04:08,149 --> 00:04:12,449
jump ahead or go fast or go slow or backtrack or whatever. So

85
00:04:12,580 --> 00:04:17,459
it's not hard and fast. But we can typically understand where a child might be.

86
00:04:17,858 --> 00:04:20,649
My experience is children on the spectrum,

87
00:04:20,950 --> 00:04:22,970
they process everything slower.

88
00:04:23,649 --> 00:04:27,309
So their phases and stages extend beyond

89
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,619
what we would consider the traditional time frame

90
00:04:30,459 --> 00:04:34,929
and you almost have to consider it might be about double

91
00:04:35,149 --> 00:04:36,350
the number of sessions.

92
00:04:37,510 --> 00:04:40,589
And that's just been my experience, everyone else maybe can weigh in.

93
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,570
I just, I wanna share from my personal work

94
00:04:44,130 --> 00:04:44,790
also,

95
00:04:44,799 --> 00:04:46,730
their play is very different and I think

96
00:04:46,739 --> 00:04:49,450
this might actually be why everything takes longer.

97
00:04:50,230 --> 00:04:54,290
They tend to struggle with creative and imaginative play.

98
00:04:55,350 --> 00:04:58,470
Their play tends to be very prescribed

99
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,290
and wrote. And here's what I mean by that,

100
00:05:01,630 --> 00:05:05,450
they will reenact something from a video game.

101
00:05:05,950 --> 00:05:09,929
They will reenact a story line from a movie or from a TV show

102
00:05:09,940 --> 00:05:14,690
or they will play out a character that they're familiar with the dialogue and,

103
00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:15,649
and the back story,

104
00:05:16,339 --> 00:05:18,720
they tend to be very repetitive

105
00:05:18,890 --> 00:05:20,399
and rehearsed

106
00:05:20,660 --> 00:05:21,390
in their play.

107
00:05:22,399 --> 00:05:28,119
And because kids on the spectrum tend to gravitate towards screens and electronics

108
00:05:28,950 --> 00:05:31,049
more so than other children.

109
00:05:31,190 --> 00:05:34,380
They are very bent toward screen addiction

110
00:05:34,589 --> 00:05:35,929
and video game addiction

111
00:05:36,239 --> 00:05:39,730
and movies and TVs and all things related to screens.

112
00:05:40,769 --> 00:05:44,670
So that becomes their understanding of play,

113
00:05:44,799 --> 00:05:47,029
that becomes their understanding of the world

114
00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,540
and they will rehearse and play out what they've seen

115
00:05:51,149 --> 00:05:52,869
in a screen related capacity.

116
00:05:53,329 --> 00:05:57,059
So they'll play out video games, they'll play out movies, TV,

117
00:05:57,070 --> 00:05:58,070
shows that kind of thing.

118
00:05:58,390 --> 00:06:00,450
And I think that that actually might slow

119
00:06:00,459 --> 00:06:02,929
down the process because one of the things that

120
00:06:03,260 --> 00:06:05,440
we know about the child-centered model

121
00:06:05,450 --> 00:06:09,690
is that children eventually subconsciously start

122
00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:11,790
to work through the things that they need to work through.

123
00:06:11,950 --> 00:06:15,250
And it almost always evolves into creative and

124
00:06:15,260 --> 00:06:17,929
imaginative or narrative play of some sort,

125
00:06:18,130 --> 00:06:19,690
not always, but usually

126
00:06:20,809 --> 00:06:25,190
so with kids on the spectrum, they tend to be much more prescriptive

127
00:06:25,549 --> 00:06:30,850
and wrote with their play. It does not mean that they're not benefiting from CCPT.

128
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,829
It does not mean that it's not work that they need to do.

129
00:06:34,029 --> 00:06:35,230
It's just different.

130
00:06:35,489 --> 00:06:38,149
And I think the pace of it is longer

131
00:06:38,540 --> 00:06:39,059
in

132
00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:41,589
for those reasons and in that capacity.

133
00:06:42,239 --> 00:06:42,790
So

134
00:06:43,049 --> 00:06:48,309
another thing that I have noticed is parents tend to

135
00:06:48,630 --> 00:06:50,950
have a fix it mentality

136
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,640
and we have to spend a lot of time helping set realistic expectations

137
00:06:55,959 --> 00:07:00,350
and we have to help them understand what this feasibly speaking looks like

138
00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:02,190
in the way of positive outcomes.

139
00:07:02,970 --> 00:07:06,260
Because if they reach out to you as a CCPT

140
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,269
and they expect that their child is going to fill in the blank,

141
00:07:10,790 --> 00:07:11,250
right?

142
00:07:11,369 --> 00:07:15,910
They're going to stop having meltdowns, they're going to stop being aggressive,

143
00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:17,320
they're going to stop whatever.

144
00:07:17,690 --> 00:07:22,470
So yes, of course, we hope that every child becomes more regulated.

145
00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,000
We know that's a universal outcome.

146
00:07:24,369 --> 00:07:26,079
We hope that a child builds an emotional

147
00:07:26,089 --> 00:07:28,540
vocabulary and they're better able to communicate.

148
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,709
We know that they will build self esteem. So

149
00:07:31,869 --> 00:07:34,869
the universal outcomes apply even to kids on the spectrum.

150
00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:37,190
But it lands differently

151
00:07:37,549 --> 00:07:41,929
because their neuro divergence means that their brains are wired differently,

152
00:07:42,209 --> 00:07:46,829
they process things differently, they experience emotions differently,

153
00:07:47,329 --> 00:07:49,230
their communication style is different.

154
00:07:49,660 --> 00:07:53,750
All of this influences their work in the playroom.

155
00:07:54,399 --> 00:07:58,750
So it's about kind of being very open and trusting the process

156
00:07:59,700 --> 00:08:01,640
and knowing that look, we can, I,

157
00:08:01,649 --> 00:08:03,869
I actually just pulled a whole bunch of articles

158
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,369
about this because I had a conversation with a supervisor

159
00:08:06,559 --> 00:08:08,279
for one of my coaching participants

160
00:08:08,540 --> 00:08:11,489
and they almost exclusively work with kids on the spectrum.

161
00:08:11,690 --> 00:08:14,690
And the supervisor told the coaching participant that 

162
00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:17,880
CCPT was not appropriate for kids on the spectrum.

163
00:08:18,329 --> 00:08:23,320
So I did a deep dive and I have a whole new arsenal of all of these articles

164
00:08:23,519 --> 00:08:28,380
that show that CCPT does actually prove effective with kids on the spectrum.

165
00:08:28,609 --> 00:08:30,329
So we know that it's effective,

166
00:08:31,089 --> 00:08:34,520
but we know that it's going to be slower, it's going to look different,

167
00:08:34,530 --> 00:08:35,710
it's going to feel different

168
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,789
and their play is going to be different.

169
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,190
But we still trust the process.

170
00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:45,119
We still help parents understand what realistic expectations and time frames are.

171
00:08:45,619 --> 00:08:50,030
And then we believe in the child's inherent need and ability to self actualize.

172
00:08:50,929 --> 00:08:52,710
And if you

173
00:08:53,039 --> 00:08:59,309
know anything about Autplay, and it's not CCPT. But I'm only referencing that because

174
00:08:59,789 --> 00:09:05,760
Grant has been kind of a pioneer of the intersection of play therapy with autism. In

175
00:09:06,150 --> 00:09:09,299
his book, he shared that there was a child.

176
00:09:09,309 --> 00:09:11,849
I might have mentioned this on another podcast, but he

177
00:09:12,049 --> 00:09:15,599
referenced a child that came in and used the toy vacuum

178
00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:17,549
every week for months

179
00:09:18,669 --> 00:09:21,169
and the child just play vacuumed

180
00:09:21,409 --> 00:09:24,010
over and over and over and over again.

181
00:09:24,409 --> 00:09:25,510
And he

182
00:09:25,739 --> 00:09:26,580
was like,

183
00:09:26,830 --> 00:09:30,289
what in the world is, what is this doing? Why is this child doing this?

184
00:09:30,299 --> 00:09:34,219
What is the purpose of this? Is this actually meaningful? What is going on

185
00:09:34,489 --> 00:09:38,619
and come to find out it was exactly what the child needed. And he says in the book,

186
00:09:39,030 --> 00:09:43,320
I realized that this particular child just needed to come in and vacuum every week.

187
00:09:44,750 --> 00:09:48,770
So we need to be really sensitive to the fact that even if the play looks different,

188
00:09:48,929 --> 00:09:50,070
it is meaningful.

189
00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:54,929
And even if it's not exactly what the normal formulaic process is

190
00:09:55,429 --> 00:09:56,880
as a general rule,

191
00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,049
we know that

192
00:09:59,169 --> 00:10:02,229
if we trust kids, they will do the work that they need to do

193
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,960
and the four universal outcomes will serve kids on the

194
00:10:04,969 --> 00:10:08,669
spectrum extremely well as well as their own individualized issues

195
00:10:09,510 --> 00:10:11,070
that they end up processing. So

196
00:10:11,859 --> 00:10:14,140
Michelle, thank you so much for the question.

197
00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:17,479
I hope that that is helpful for all of us because we certainly

198
00:10:17,489 --> 00:10:21,969
are always going to have kids on the spectrum in our playrooms.

199
00:10:22,169 --> 00:10:22,640
And

200
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,179
I think one of our goals is to understand

201
00:10:27,090 --> 00:10:28,510
how that looks different,

202
00:10:28,549 --> 00:10:31,830
but also how there's continuity and we don't need to change anything.

203
00:10:32,770 --> 00:10:35,349
All right, thanks so much for the email reminder.

204
00:10:35,719 --> 00:10:40,400
Please sign up for the conference in Australia and also please sign up for

205
00:10:40,409 --> 00:10:41,619
the meet up if you're going to

206
00:10:41,630 --> 00:10:44,859
the conference www.playtherapypodcast.com/meetup

207
00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,659
and make sure you get your tickets for the conference. If you are in

208
00:10:49,955 --> 00:10:51,965
Asia, if you are in New Zealand,

209
00:10:51,974 --> 00:10:55,184
if you are in Australia and you can't make it to the Gold Coast,

210
00:10:55,255 --> 00:10:57,395
you can get a virtual ticket

211
00:10:57,674 --> 00:11:01,385
where you are able to watch the conference virtually.

212
00:11:01,395 --> 00:11:03,304
That's something they're doing for the first time this year.

213
00:11:03,315 --> 00:11:06,684
So if you are able to do that, that's another option for you

214
00:11:07,155 --> 00:11:11,025
and for all of my States side people and my Europeans and to

215
00:11:11,034 --> 00:11:13,265
all of the other countries all over the world that are listening.

216
00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:14,609
I appreciate you.

217
00:11:14,859 --> 00:11:16,979
Put me in contact with the people,

218
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,710
the powers that be in your country and I'll figure

219
00:11:19,719 --> 00:11:21,789
out how I can come speak closer to you.

220
00:11:22,179 --> 00:11:25,320
Reach out. I'd love to hear from you, brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

221
00:11:25,330 --> 00:11:27,059
Love y'all talk again soon. Bye.

222
00:11:28,030 --> 00:11:32,010
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr Brenna Hicks.

223
00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:34,169
For more episodes and resources.

224
00:11:34,179 --> 00:11:39,090
Please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.