Episode 33: Interview with Jenn Michaelis Stellmon

Welcome to the Canine Connection podcast. Today,
Lori and I are super excited to have Jen Michaelis.
Well, actually, is that even your last? That's
not even your last name anymore because you just
got married. What's your last name? It's Jen
Stellman. There you go. Congratulations. Thank
you so much. It was my idea to have her on because
I feel so old. Like a long, long time ago, I
was doing physical therapy on dogs. And Jen came
to me with a dog she had at the time, Tara, a
canny corso. And so for physical therapy. So,
of course, we talk because that's what we do
at physical therapy. And then, oh, you're a trainer.
I'm a trainer. Oh, and then all we do is talk
training for hours on end. So one day she shows
me this video of her doing a really long freestyle
routine with Tara. And, you know, she goes to
show me and in my head I'm like, oh, freestyle.
I'm like, oh, my God. This dog was so happy,
so animated, so bouncy pouncy through the entire
thing. And it was long. And I am a trainer, so
I understand, like, all we try to do, as you
all know, Lori and I, is try to get this long
chain of competition behaviors to be bouncy and
pouncy and happy, and it's hard. And this is
not a Border Collie. This is not a Golden Retriever.
This is not a typical breed that does this kind
of stuff. And I'm like, holy Hannah, how did
you get your dog to do this? And she's like,
oh, back chaining. I'm like, back what? back
chaining. And I'm like, wait, we don't do that
in obedience. We don't even know what that is.
So that, and then the other, at one point, so
she has, she had a different horse at the time.
Sadly, this is so sad. They're all gone now,
right? We're getting old. um so she had a horse
so she shows me a picture of her horse and it
was a little sway back and of course me i'm a
pt i'm a trainer i'm like what if we can like
manipulate the horse so that we can get it to
like arch its back to strengthen its core blah
blah blah so of course she goes and does it and
i remember you telling me one time i thought
this was Absolutely fascinating that you are.
I don't know if you remember this. You were riding
him. So you were on him and you're like, what
is he doing? And you realize that he was offering
his little exercise that you were doing with
him. To bring his backup. Do you remember that,
Jen? I totally do. Right? And I was like, I thought
that was the coolest thing in the world. And
I'm like, you should start a website on training
your horse for conditioning, whatever. I still
think it's pretty cool. Right? It's so cool.
So fast forward, like you moved to the West Coast.
So you're in. Washington state or Oregon? I'm
in Oregon now. Oregon. Neither. They're like
the same. Open your own school. You can tell
everybody about, you know, what you do now. And
now you have different dogs, but you also have
another horse. And I see on Facebook that you're
also doing all kinds of cool stuff. Clicker training
the horse and rehabbing. The horse. And so I'm
like. We have to have her on. To talk about this.
Because like yeah. Dog training is great. But
like the whole horse thing. I think is like.
I trained a pig. Like I trained a pig. I remember
that pig. Oh you met him. Right. So fascinating.
Because he learns differently. And you know whatever.
So anyway. That's my long intro on like the highlights
of Jen. And like, yeah, you just sent me some
pictures from back then with me, Tara laying
there. I'm doing our nails. It's so great. We
just talked forever training. But so you can
tell us whatever you want to tell us about yourself,
your dogs, your horses, and then we'll just talk
training. Yeah. Amazing. I'm so lucky. I just
get to sit here and like, talk about my animals.
This is amazing. Best part of the day. Yeah.
So I'm in Corvallis, Oregon now. Um, and I, I
own and operate wonder dogs, training, wellness,
and enrichment. And, um, I have currently in
my household, cause you don't, you mean you don't
even know, probably you haven't met any of them.
I haven't met any of them. Yeah. I've seen them
on Facebook, but I haven't met them. Yeah. I
have, um, a beagle who just turned eight. I adopted
her in April. So almost three years now. So I
adopted her when she was five. Her name's Freddie.
She's curled up in my lap right now. She is just
an absolute love bug. And we're working on some
freestyle stuff, but you know, she's a beagle.
So we're doing nose work first. She said, don't
have a great time with the nose work, of course.
And my husband, Adam, when he moved here from
New Mexico two years ago, he brought his two
dogs and they're actually. honestly how like
how we got back together was his two problem
dogs he has a uh he's got a nine -year -old great
pyrenees and a almost four -year -old now uh
super much he is a min pin border collie and
pug mix if you can imagine that oh my god i cannot
yeah she's so she's a lot um But yeah, the dogs
that you were talking about is Tara, my Cane
Corso. She definitely was, she was my first dog.
And as far as like when you consider a performance
dog. And I was really lucky to have such a wonderful
partner. She and I did musical freestyle pretty
much from. Gosh, I think she was maybe eight
months when we started doing it. She was, I mean,
12 and a half when she passed away and she had
just done her last show, like just a couple of
months before that. It was amazing. Yeah, so
much of what we were able to do was because of
everything that you taught me in terms of her
physicality and her fitness and her ability to
do those things for so long and enjoy what she
loved was because of so much of the work that
you and I did together. Just learning how to
help her use her body in the best way possible.
And then you had another dog. Oh, Ringo. Yeah.
My Chinese Crested. Yeah. He was also, he was
a retired show dog, just like Freddie. So I adopted
him when he was five and I didn't really think
I was going to do any sort of performance stuff
with him. He, but I actually ended up competing
in freestyle with him as well. Started competing
when he was eight. Cause I keep reminding myself
of that when I look at Freddie and go, Oh, I
haven't done anything with this dog. And he went
on to earn his champion title in musical freestyle
as well. He was a fun dog. He taught me a lot
about working with sensitive dogs under pressure.
That's very, very different than Tara was always
very resilient to the pressure in the ring. But
he was a fun dog to work with as well. And you
had Roger was your horse, right? Roger. Yep.
And I had him since I was, I met him when I was
16, but I bought him when I turned 18. And yeah,
I had him until he was 31. He passed away almost
exactly a year ago. And yeah, he was my paint
horse. And I started doing that rehab with him
because at about age 20, he started having lots
of tripping problems and issues. And, you know,
everybody in the horse world had different opinions
about it. But pretty much everybody came around
to saying, well, I just shouldn't ride him anymore.
Just don't ride him anymore. And he had just
such a big heart and wanted to keep doing things.
And so that's where I started doing my own sort
of detective work and thinking, well, that can't
be the end of the story. There's got to be more
to it here. that's kind of what inspired my my
rehab work with him as well so tell us about
clicker training roger yeah i started like do
they learn like a horse i mean i'm sorry do they
learn like a dog or differently they're very
they're very different i mean there's a lot of
similarities but they're also really different
you know i think that with horses I mean, they're
so easily motivated by food. It's ridiculous.
Like when you think about the size of the animal,
right? Like Brina weighs almost 1700 pounds.
So Roger weighed 1100 pounds and I'm giving him
like three little pieces. They're about the same
size of dog kibble of hay pellets. And he will
do repetition after repetition after repetition.
So they're so food motivated. Oh, I didn't know
that horses were so food motivated. I didn't
either. And I would, I would. What's that? No,
I was just going to say, I was like, I'm sitting
here, like imagining you in the barn doing this.
And I'm like, I would think this huge animal
would just push, like be pushy for the food.
Like just repetition after repetition without
the horse, like. Just give me the food. Like,
push. You know what I mean? Like, that's what
I'm imagining in my head. Like, just give it
to me. Like, how did you even get them to, like,
just continuously, patiently do repetition after
repetition? Yeah, I think that's a big difference
with horses versus dogs. They're patient to do
many repetitions, at least in my experience.
But I would say they can be very pushy and very
food aggressive. They frustrate really quickly.
And in terms of having to think about how to
get their food, like problem solving, I don't
really think like if you think about a horse,
right, they have evolved to just drop their head
and eat like the food is just all over the ground.
It's just free. So. I think having to problem
solve and think how to earn the food, just even
that act can be really frustrating and they can
get aggressive about it. Versus like a dog or
any other social predator is used to problem
solving to earn their food. Does that make sense?
Yeah. So I think there's a little bit of like
a, you know, species difference there. I definitely
think that always the first. anybody who does
clicker training with horses first thing you
always do is teach them food manners and oftentimes
from behind protected contact just to make sure
that if they are going to overwhelm you and try
to mug you for the food you can take a step back
and they're behind a stall wall or something
like that so that you can manage your safety
Yeah. I mean, they're, they are very large and,
and they, well, that's like what I'm like, that's
what I was imagining. I'm like, huh. All right.
I'm in a stall with this 17, 1800 pound horse
that wants the freaking food in my hand. And
what's stopping him from getting it opposed to
like a dog, you know? Right. Right. I mean, with
dogs, at least they're a little bit lower on
the ground, right? You can kind of get away from
them a little easier. Very first thing you always
do is work on teaching them that they don't get.
the food by reaching for it you basically teach
them leave it right off the bat very first thing
is it's in my hand it's in my pocket you only
will get a click and food delivered to you if
you are standing in your own space minding your
own business okay okay so do they learn that
relatively quickly like it's impulse control
basically It is. It is. Yeah. So, of course,
like adding duration to it and that sort of stuff
is is certainly challenging. But I oh, gosh,
there was a horse I was leasing when Rogers last
couple of years. And I have a video of him learning
this the very first time. He literally learned
it in like five clicks, six clicks. They they
figure it out very quickly. I I feel a lot of
times. I have to move my criteria much faster
with my horses than I do with my dogs. I feel
like I have to sit down and really have my training
plan planned out because I'm going to progress
through my criteria a lot faster than I expect
to. Do you think that's because the horses are
more motivated? Because I do find, I'm going
to go on a little tangent here, because this
is something that I've been working on a lot.
and really focusing on a lot with a lot of students
is like they progress their dogs way too slow
like ridiculously so i'm like dude come on like
let like the dog can go way faster than that
like so is that just a function of motivation
like the horse learning it more quickly is it
expectation is it like or is it just a you know
species thing Yeah, that's a really good question.
Honestly, I don't know if I know the answer to
it. I could guess and speculate. Yeah, go ahead.
Speculate away. I'm just kind of comparing the
difference between working with Roger, who was
a traditionally trained horse, for a much larger
portion of his life than, for example, Brina.
My new horse, Brina, is... So she was seven when
I got her last year. You know, Roger, I started
clicker training him when he was maybe 18, 19,
20. And so he had had, you know, a long portion
of his life being traditionally trained, which
really focuses a lot on creating a very compliant,
quiet horse that if we were comparing it to dog
terms would be very much shut down. We're not
expecting the horse to offer a lot of behavior
or be extremely motivated and animated. So for
him, progressing criteria was still fast. But
when I compare him to Brina or my least horse
spirit, he... was not as fast with, with Brina.
She's extremely fast. And I honestly wonder sometimes
when I work with her, if it's just the sheer
internal motivation and freedom of actually being
given choice agency and control. It's very reinforcing,
you know, chase agency and control are very huge
primary reinforcers. So for her to be given the
green light and say like, yeah, give it a try.
She is like, I will do this. Right. So I, I think
that that is a big part of it. They are very
strongly socially bonded creatures. And yeah,
I mean, maybe a lot of part of it is just the
food motivation. They're very easily motivated
by food. So they could, I mean, they're used
to eating 23 hours a day. You know, their horses
don't need nearly as much sleep as humans and
dogs do. I think they get like need truly need
like five hours of REM sleep and then they just
doze any other time. So they're used to being.
moving on the go and eating all day they're pretty
prepared for that yeah I mean I think I do think
a lot of dogs are somewhat food motivated too
I just feel that people they're just like one
like I had somebody that I'm not I'm thinking
of someone in my head don't everybody out there
don't start thinking it's you okay because that's
what happened last time they were like was that
me I'm like no it was not you um but it's like
one behavior cookie one behavior cookie one behavior
cookie one behavior cookie and then it's like
Um, the second you don't get a, give the dog
a cookie, the dog starts going right. And then
she's like, oh, the dog, you know, then the people
like, oh, the dog's upset. Let me give it a cookie.
And I'm like, oh my God, you're making it worse.
Like, is that, I wonder if I. Do you find that?
I think people just don't get like, I don't think
what you just said was so profound about giving
them agency, giving them the opportunity to solve
a problem, to make some choices, maybe make some
mistakes, but then figure it out. Like to me,
that's so reinforcing in my dogs anyway. And
a lot of dogs, when I get students to stop it
and just stand back, like somebody said to me
today, I can't say this. They're like. I did
what you said. I waited. It was the longest six
seconds of my life. Yeah. I'm like six seconds.
Do you hear how funny that is that you just said
that to me? Six seconds. But it felt like a lifetime
to her. Yeah, but it's six fricking seconds.
Dude, chill out. Like, and the dog figured it
out. Big surprise. Yeah. I mean, I think as trainers,
we have such an agenda in our brain that we were
quick to want to bail the dog out. Like, God
forbid they get frustrated. Right. But I think
it is really important to give them the opportunity
to learn and to try. And yeah, they're going
to make mistakes. That's OK. That's part of the
learning process. Right. And teaching the dog
it's OK to experiment or the learner, you know,
whatever species it is, teaching them it's OK
and it's allowed to try. And they're not going
to get in trouble for that. They're not going
to get discouraged for that. But, yeah, moving
the criteria. quickly enough is really important.
Like even then when you were saying behavior
cookie, behavior cookie, I'm already in my head
counting reps and I'm like, Oh, she got to four.
What are you going to do at five? Right. I'm,
I'm definitely a big advocate of making sure
that within five reps, you're already evaluating
and you're prepared to move your criteria if
needed to. I definitely feel that students, you
know, my students as well, don't move the criteria
fast enough. And oftentimes I. at least when
I catch myself in that cycle, like I do find
myself in that cycle with Brina. She's a very
fast learner. It's because I haven't. been prepared
enough I have not sat down and thought okay here's
my training plan and I've maybe thought oh maybe
I'll get through step one step two but I didn't
think through three four and five and she might
progress through that that quickly in terms of
the criteria so oftentimes it's because I'm still
processing how the criteria went in the first
handful of reps and I'm still Not even evaluating
it well enough to know if I'm ready to go to
that next criteria, because I didn't sit down
to write my training plan out well enough. Yeah.
So that's the animals keeping us honest. For
sure. Right. So what how do you handle it when
when a horse gets frustrated? Right. Because
it's the same similar scenario to dogs, obviously
a lot less life threatening. But. Yeah. So how
do you handle it when the horse gets frustrated?
Right. Because you said they have a low frustration
threshold. Yeah. I certainly will go back to
asking for simpler behaviors. So it gives me
kind of a chance to reevaluate, you know, what
mistake did I make that actually caused that
frustration? A really big thing that I do a lot
is work with really low value reinforcers. Like
if I bring out any actual horse treats, like.
I'm going to get so much motivation that I don't
want it because then I'm going to also be building
in conflict with that behavior. So I use very
low value food reinforcers, literally just hay
pellets. So it's the same stuff that she gets
for free all the time. It would be the dog equivalent
of just using kibble or Cheerios. You know, some
dogs are very easily motivated by those. Other
dogs think you're crazy if you bring that out.
But if she does get really frustrated, a lot
of times it's just easier to take a break. I
grab a huge handful of hay and I tell her her
all done cue and I just let her relax because
the biggest frustration is coming from not getting
the food quickly enough. So I can just grab a
big handful of hay and just let her take a break
and eat. There's nothing wrong with just reinforcing
settling down at that point and take a step back.
reevaluate what I'm doing. But usually it has
to come down to the fact that I'm usually progressing
my criteria in a way that she feels she deserves
reinforcement faster. The rate of reinforcement
is too low. So I try to raise my rate of reinforcement
temporarily and then work on building that frustration
tolerance and the impulse control to be able
to handle the lower rate of reinforcement. So
with the conflict with the high value, is that
like kind of similar to the horse dog gets over
aroused, right? And then a thousand percent.
Yeah. And so then you're dealing with all the.
Side effects of the over arousal. And then that's
interfering with the dog's ability to learn and
access the reinforcer. Exactly. You're going
to have fluency problems. You're going to have
stimulus control issues. And then, you know,
with a dog, you might get like jumpy, bitey,
barky stuff with a horse. You're going to get
they will take the treats rougher, just like
dogs when they get over aroused. But you might
also get like head tossing, pinned ears. you
know, you might get defensive behavior in terms
of the food as well. So, you know, being a little
bit sharky or reaching for the food or just being...
Like I've had, I've had Brina get real excited
and even just almost like literally turn her
butt to kick me, not to truly kick me, but she's
like, I'm doing a trot and I wanted a click and
now I'm frustrated. So I'm going to pin my ears
and toss my head and maybe, maybe shift my hip
towards you a little bit. Cause I'm mad, you
know? And I'm like, I hear you. I see you. That
was my mistake. Wow. I always say people should,
I will always say people should have to train
Zaina because she will hold you accountable.
She will let you know when you're messing up,
like she will no holds barred. She will be like,
Hey idiot, what are you doing? So now I think
everyone, instead of training Zaina, they should
train a horse because it's going to force you.
To get your act together or else you're going
to it ain't going to be pretty. Yeah, it's definitely
because they don't they don't live in the household
with us all the time. They're very motivated
to interact with us when we come out. They're
very sensitive to our energy and our body postures.
You definitely wouldn't get away with nearly
as much with a horse as you do with dogs. Wow,
that's interesting. Yeah, they're they're very
fun. And it's very interesting to see how they.
How quickly they generalize, that's one thing
that I really notice a difference. Like you were
saying, Petra, that I told you, I had taught
Roger just to offer his head and put his head
down. walk and at trot while he was on the ground
on the lunge line. And doing that, we were doing
that to get him to lift his abdominals and use
his back properly. And I took him out for a trail
ride. I don't know, it probably was like weeks
later. And I was like, why is he sniffing the
ground? Like we're going out for a ride and he
keeps sniffing the ground. What are you doing?
And he was like, this is what I've been getting
clicks and treats for. Look, I can do it. And
I was like, I have never once viewed this from
the saddle. Yeah, it's bizarre. And Brina will
do the same thing. One of the rehab exercises
I'm working on is, this might be hard to describe
on a podcast, but if you can imagine a Cavaletti
pole, instead of walking across it perpendicularly,
she's actually standing with it between her front
feet and her back feet. Does that make sense?
Yeah. Okay. And then we're taking side, keeping
the front feet stationary. We're taking sidesteps
left and right with her back feet. When I was
riding her last month, I kind of was giving her
a loose rein and just giving her a chance to
stretch and relax. And she said, oh, you're not
giving me any cues. I'm going to mosey to the
center of the arena over here. She literally
straddled the Cavaletti and started stepping
back and forth with it. wow never cued that from
the saddle before ever only ever cued it on the
ground standing in front of her so you think
that generalization is just motivation or it's
just they're wired differently maybe as a prey
animal they're wired differently yeah you know
um they're you know they're very they're very
socially um sensitive in terms of if she freezes
and looks at something in the distance, if I
try to be like, oh yeah, it's totally fine. She's
like, you're psycho. It's not fine. You know?
So I have to stop and acknowledge it too. Oh
yeah. I see that bicyclist. No big deal. And
then we can go right back to work. You know,
sometimes I wonder if it's a difference between
prey versus predator, but. I've only really just
experimented and played with my own dogs. I would
not consider myself a horse clicker training
expert. We're just talking, right, in theory.
None of us are experts at anything. Trust me,
I'm not an expert on anything. No, it's fascinating
because it always makes me think, right? Because,
I mean, dogs, I think, are not good generalizers
at all. No, you have to take so many steps to
do that. And you got to show them 80 different
pictures of it, you know? Yeah, I had the same
thing happen with Roger when I was doing nose
work with him. I would have a terrible nose work
session trying to introduce corners or something
like that. And I'd go home and I'd just pick
it apart in my head and be like, all right, here's
my plan going forward. Then I'd come back and
do it again. And he'd be like, yeah, corners.
Got it, mom. I've been thinking about it. It's
fine. And I'd be like, what? I didn't do anything.
How did you generalize this? It's just so fast.
Wow. that's amazing so interesting i mean i do
think there i mean the generalization thing aside
another point that you just made which i do think
is big because i think a lot of times people
just flood their dogs with too much information
and that whole like just let it sit like i've
had sessions where my dog's not getting it or
did it wrong and i don't i was like i don't even
know how to fix this i'm like you know what just
forget it Come back the next day. And he's like,
like Zesty's really like good at that, you know?
And then he's like, oh yeah, I got it. I'm like,
oh, all right. You know, and people, I feel like
they're so controlling. Like their dog makes
a mistake. They freak out or the dog doesn't
get it. They're trying so hard. They're doing
8 ,000 reps and they get up the next day. They
do it again. And I'm like, holy cow. Like just.
you know, um, I like, I have a rule of threes.
They're not allowed to do more than three correct
reps in a row. At that point, you need to either
raise criteria or go do something else. Cause
I had to do something that I had to draw the
line. Right. And I'm like, and I'm also like
one and done. Like when, if Zaina does something
perfectly, I will never do it again ever like
that day, that session, because I will guarantee
you. the odds are very high if i do it again
it won't be perfect so like i do she does it
perfectly you know she'll and then i move on
to the next thing the next thing and next thing
and sometimes she does like four or five things
once we're done she's done we're done goodbye
off of you you're done yep ringo was exactly
the same way you got to do it do it right and
then quit. Tara was the exact opposite. That
was a really interesting thing working with her
is if I quit, it actually was really punishing
for her. She did not want to quit. So she really
taught me how to keep raising my criteria. And
I honestly think that that's what made it so
easy for me to teach her to do so much duration
and such long behavior chains with her. But that's
so interesting because she's not a breed that
you would ever imagine. I think a lot that it
would have had to have your training had to have
a huge impact because I'm sorry, that is not
a breed that like is super social. Like, let's
just be real people. I mean, come on. Like it
is what it is. Right. It's not a breed that's
typically motivated to do anything other than
guard because that's what it was bred for. Yeah.
Right. Maybe bite. That would be reinforcing.
And. So when you have, this is what I found so
fascinating, especially when I watched that video
is that like, it is what it is. And I'm like,
how did you get this dog to do that? You know,
so it, no, but it, it has to do with how you
trained her. Oh, I lost her. So, so we were talking
about Tara. Like, what did you do to you? Obviously,
your training had to have a big impact on her,
like just wanting to work, wanting to do reps,
wanting to keep, you know. Yeah, she definitely
had so much motivation, internal motivation.
Yeah, I was trying to think about that. You know,
sometimes when you when you're such in the thick
of it, you don't realize exactly how you're doing
it. But, you know, I think. I didn't intend for
her to be a performance dog, honestly. I just
got her as a pet. But when I was raising her,
I mean, I did clicker training since day one.
I got her very young. She was like seven weeks
old when she came home. So she definitely learned
from early on how to do everything in terms of
just easy clicker training and that sort of stuff.
Really, I think what it came down to was building
a lot of impulse control, a lot of frustration
tolerance that really allowed me to add duration
and create those really long behavior chains
without getting all the other side effects and
the fallout that usually comes with that. I really
wanted to build a lot of trust and a lot of confidence
in her that no matter what, she was going to
get reinforced and it was going to be worth it.
You know, I think that's the big thing is that
our dogs start to lose confidence in us that
it's going to be worth it. It's a huge amount
of work. I mean, they're not done. They know
when we walk into a ring and it's an actual show,
like they know there's not going to be. actual
tangible reinforcement, right? Like the food,
the play. And very oftentimes that's when we
see like, you know, that lackluster performance
or we see latency problems where they just don't
respond as quickly. And I really wanted to build
trust and confidence in her that it's always
going to be worth it. And really what that comes
down to is your classical conditioning, right?
That it's not about the operant conditioning
of each individual behavior. I think it's about
the classical conditioning of the whole entire
picture to them of doing a chain of behaviors,
right? That they know that picture means they're
going to get reinforcement. I always. Tell my
students to make sure that you don't just think
about giving them a reward. If you're asking
for a big chain of behaviors, think about making
a reward event. That the quality and the quantity
of the reinforcer is the quality and the quantity
of your reinforcer has to be greater than the
quality and the quantity. of whatever you just
asked them to do. Otherwise, they're going to
do a cost -benefit analysis and they're going
to realize it's not worth it. Right. Yeah, that's
so true. Being really, really specific in that
regard in terms of how long was that? Was it
a minute's worth of work? You better play tug
for at least a minute. Plus treats. Just being
really, really clear. for the handlers so that
they've got something concrete to actually do.
That's, I think that's really important. How
did you build frustration tolerance? Um, I think
I was so worried in terms of having a pet. I
was so worried about a dog that was going to,
you know, whine in her crate or some bark out
of excitement in the car because Corsos are well
known for their high arousal issues. Um, so I
really worked a lot in terms of her, um, Working
on things like just basic stuff like stays and
waits, but adding insane levels of distractions,
you know, remote control toys, throwing her toys
and calling leave it or wait. To build the impulse
control, the frustration tolerance, I really
did a lot with food puzzle toys. I don't know
if you use a lot of food puzzle toys with your
dogs in terms of that. I don't because my dogs
literally destroy them. Like their way to solve
the puzzle is destroy the toy. Like to get at
the food like that. They're so unsophisticated.
They're just. And then. Yeah. Very much in that
way as well. Yeah. There was one, it was like
a bubble gum machine and it's like. Cookie cookie.
It's like hit it, hit it, hit it, hit it. Like
till the machine practically explodes. Right.
Like. There are. There are field labs. Like.
Yeah. They just don't do. They have simpler ways
of getting to it. Puzzles. So you said you used
puzzles a lot. Ask me if I use puzzles. I told
you that using a puzzle with a lab field lab
is absolutely disastrous. And it does. Yeah.
Yeah. So the puzzle, I see what you're saying,
because like she has to work through finding
it. She has to work through solving the puzzle
to get the reinforcer. Yeah. And if she gets
frustrated, though, do you help her solve the
puzzle? Or are you just like, it's okay, honey,
keep working? I give her an easier puzzle. So
I think starting with an easier puzzle, like
once you notice like, oh, we're going to vocalizing
or destruction as our strategy, right? It means
you've just picked a too challenging puzzle.
Or you can choose to reinforce for effort that
isn't actually getting the food out right away,
like so that they don't switch strategies, right?
Because switching strategies to destruction or
just like vocalizing is like Freddie would work
on a Kong while also whining because she's frustrated,
right? So getting reinforcement more frequently
teaches them that they can work through it and
eventually get it. I've done that with a lot
of clients' dogs where they're playing with a
toy and right as we kind of see that frustration
starting to bubble up, you just kind of sneakily
drop a little piece of food down there so they
think it came out of the toy, right? So you're
actually reinforcing the persistence and the
resilience without going to that next level of
frustration. Yeah, because I was just saying
the lorry when we got disconnected, like... It's
such a conundrum because there's such a fine
line, right? Because what people tend to do is
the second their dog gets frustrated, they throw
a cookie at it. So that decreases their frustration
tolerance, right? Because as soon as the dog
gets frustrated, they're like, here's a cookie,
here's another cookie. So it's like where, you
know, I think I find I tend, people tend to do
that way more than push the dog. past the point,
you know, where they're so frustrated that you
went too far, but there's that fine line where
they need to push and you can't just run and
grab, you know, Oh God here. So far to where
they're the dogs, like I give up or I'm out and
different dogs have different tolerances for
frustration naturally. Yeah, I think you can
shape the frustration in the same way that you
shape an actual action, though. Right. So knowing
that sometimes it is a good idea to just give
that treat at that moment when the dog is frustrated.
But you can't that can't always be the answer
because then you're stuck at that level of criteria
in terms of frustration. Right. So knowing where
you made the mistake, making a slight adjustment
to your criteria so the dog can accomplish maybe
an approximation of your goal, but with less
frustration. frustration that would be reinforceable
right and so you're what you're really working
on is two different criteria you're working on
the goal behavior but also imagining that the
the emotion that comes a lot along with it is
part of your criteria so we always have to reduce
your criteria anytime you're adding a layer to
something and frustration is a layer yeah that's
so Yeah. I always try, like, I'm always thinking
like, even when I have a puppy, um, right. Like,
so I'm training a puppy and I can see it's starting
to get either a little glazed or it's starting
to get a little, and I'm like, all right, just
then my tendency is I'm like, give me just a
little bit more. And then I'm like, yes. And
then we're done. Right. So that I'm always trying
to push like a little bit. and a little more,
and a little more, and a little more into that,
right? So that over time, it gets bigger and
bigger so that they can do more work and they
can tolerate more frustration. Yeah, they're
able to think through that level of adrenaline,
right? And that's, I mean, that's exactly essentially
what I'm also saying. I think that with... And
less experienced handlers, knowing where that
line is and knowing when to push and knowing
when to drop, I mean, those are the chops, right?
That's the mechanics and the training judgment
calls that we all have to make all the time with
different learners, same learner on different
days. I mean, those are the tough calls that
we have to make all the time, knowing when to
push and when not to. Yeah. Going back to when
you were just talking about when, like, so the
dog's trying to solve the puzzle and you can
start to see some frustration bubbling up. So
you sort of just, you know, secretly sneak a
cookie in to make the dog think that they've
got some success. I like that. I'm just sitting
here thinking about that. Like you're almost.
um, when it gets hard and we want you to keep
pushing, but we're also wanting to pair it with
the right emotional state. So that's right. I'm
thinking about that. Like, I like that. I like
that. Yeah. So that's a moment where kind of
like we would with a dog who is fearful. We are
willing to give you a treat while you're fearful.
Right. And people used to be worried. Oh, that
reinforces the fear. It's the same thing with
frustration. I'm willing to give you a treat
to help you work through this emotional thing.
And it's not reinforcing the frustration, even
though it kind of feels like it is. Does that
make sense? It does make sense because I'm like.
I'm like envisioning this and I'm like, if I
see frustration bubbling, is my first instinct
to go put a cookie in it, like put a cookie on
it? Right. It's not. But now that I'm thinking
about it, I'm like, huh, I kind of like it. I'm
looking at this differently. That's interesting.
You can always go back and shape the actual action,
right? Like you're like, oh, well, if I give
him a treat, then he's going to think I want
him to do A instead of B. But really, you can
always go back and shape the actual action the
way that you want it to be once you've dealt
with the frustration. And it's going to look
even better by that point. The other strategy
that I use a lot is kind of using like a high
-low reinforcer in that moment. I'll give the
dog a treat when they get frustrated, but maybe
it's just a lower value treat. And it's, again,
just addressing the frustration. So maybe I'm
over here. And you're not like marking, right?
Like you're not really marking. So it's not like
you're isolating like a moment in time or you
know what I mean? Exactly, right? So I would
click and give high value or maybe just give
him, just literally throw him a bone, right?
Like just give him a low value thing to help
deal with the frustration. Give him a couple
low value things to deal with the frustration.
It's fine because the frustration is what's clouding
the ability to think clearly. And when we address
that, you can. come back and shape the behavior
that you wanted much much easier I think it's
kind of like the concept of what we do so for
example like if I'm adding um challenges right
like proofing is the way we say to something
and my dog maybe does not the perfect behavior
but he's trying and he's trying to push through
the challenge I will a lot of times say yes exactly
even though Let's say he fumbled the dumbbell,
but I'm like, I don't care that he fumbled it
because he made the choice to pick through and
push through and get it in spite of the crazy
toy spinning around the dumbbell, right? And
then people freak out and they're like, but you
marked a bad pickup. I'm like, no, I marked the
effort to push through. and do the task. And
then not a 100 % of the time I repeat the task.
The dog does not fumble the dumbbell, right?
Because the fumble was a function of hit something
else, which is the dog going, Oh God. Oh God.
All right. What do I do? Oh, okay. Yeah. I pick
up the toy. I pick up the dumbbell in spite of
the toy. Right? Right, buddy. And the actual
behavior of picking up the dumbbell is like secondary
and it gets resolved once you resolve the other
piece. 1 ,000%. When we think about generalizing
or proofing, we tend to think of the three Ds
only, right? Like duration, distance, and distractions.
But that is completely ignoring all the other
emotional states that your dog could be experiencing
in that moment, right? Is it frustration? Is
it a fear? Is it pressure from the handler? They're
feeling a little bit stressed about that. You
know, stress of travel when you're competing.
You know, you have to build the resiliency to
all of those things and their emotions. health
into all of that. I think that that is a big
piece of being able to get really long chains
is that you're also addressing the emotional
health of your dog, that they're feeling really
confident and trusting in you, and that they
can do all of these additional behaviors because
you've trained the distance, duration, and distractions,
but you also worked through the adrenaline. the
arousal, the frustration tolerance, the impulse
control, that stuff is more like the classical
conditioning that comes along when we're teaching
all these specific skills through operant conditioning.
I think that's what's so hard for people. Like
I did a seminar this weekend. Well, I talk about
it all the time anyway. It's like there's so
many things happening simultaneously, right?
People get and people tend to be very focused
on teaching the teaching the behavior. Yep. Yep.
Yeah. And then it's really hard for them to see,
literally see anything else. Right. Yep. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, we're not really taught to pay
attention to that. You know, the body language
and the emotions for so long, the culture of
dogs was that they don't have emotions, right?
And now we're realizing like, oh, they're actually
extremely emotionally complex. And that stuff
matters. It's coming along for the ride, whether
you want it to or not. True. Facts. You know,
I always tell my freestyle students, like, we
don't make the rules of learning. Like, we have
to live by them. We don't get to make the rules.
Like, your dog is going to tell you what they
need in that moment, and you don't get to change
the rules, but you can use them to make your
training choices. I know, but it's such a challenge
to get people, like, sometimes, like, You know,
I've seen people where they miss something so
obvious. Right. And it's happening literally.
I'm not even talking at a distance, like right
there in front of their face. And I'll go right
now. Did you just see that? See what? And I'm
like, oh, my God. Yeah. We are certainly not,
like, as humans, like, we are not aware of our
bodies nearly as much as dogs are. We don't know
what we're doing. We just do it. But we're also
not good listeners, right? Like, we're not good
listeners to other humans, right? Like, case
in point, go out to dinner. Is anyone listening
to anyone? No, they're all sitting there on their
phones, right? Like, you're not learning. to
actually listen. And then sometimes you're talking
and then the person like talks over you or something.
Right. So all those things are like, you need
to hone your skill of actually listening, like
listening and taking in objectively what's in
front of you. And I think that is what makes
a really, really good trainers is being really
open to the. honest feedback your dog gives you,
right? And being able to understand that. I will
throw myself under the bus. Like, you know, when
Tara passed away and Ringo passed away, like,
I went down this real deep grief rabbit hole.
It was really hard. And I'm still kind of finding
myself in that terms. And losing Roger was really
hard. I find myself doing bad training with Freddie
or with Brina because I can't get up. of my head.
I have a level of busyness or anxiety in my head
that I didn't have before. And I can feel it
when I get in the zone and I'm like, oh, oh,
there's my old self. I can feel it when you can
really truly like see those things and feel it
and be open to the feedback and make those judgment
and training calls in the moment and on the fly.
But it takes a level of presence that Our life
and culture just doesn't encourage us to be in
anymore. Well, that, that we talk about that
all the time. Like that's like the hardest piece
is actually being so in the moment and focused
and like completely dialed in. So not you, you're
not hearing, seeing, feeling anything else. Yeah.
Yeah. It's way harder for me to get into that
headspace than it, than it used to be. And I
think that that's. Especially when you're being
when you're a student, you know, like when you're
a student, somebody else is talking to you while
you're working your dog. That's really hard.
I find the best thing for me when I'm working
with Brina or with Freddie is I always film myself
when I'm training because then I can look back
and keep myself on. That's how I get the most
benefit from it is. filming myself and seeing
how the animal is reacting to me and then realizing,
oh, there was that moment. I missed that right
there. Cause even if I'm not in my best head
space during that training station session, when
I look back at it and I can see it visually,
it, it kind of burns itself a little bit more
into my muscle memory and I won't make that mistake
again. Right. Yeah, we talk about video all the
time. I also think like on some level, like our
first few dogs were kind of naive. Like it's
a conundrum because on the one hand, we don't
know anything. So we make those mistakes. But
on the other hand, we don't know anything. So
like. where everything is magical, right? Like
my dog picked up the dumbbell. Like I literally
to this day can remember how excited I was when
I got my first set of articles. Like I was like,
I am entering the world of utility. Like I am
a big shot. It was so exciting. And then you
have a few dogs, you know, you get to a certain
level with them. And it is incredibly challenging
to be so aware that you must now not place any
of those judgment, any of that onto your next
animals. Like I think in an odd way, I was very
lucky because I had Tyler early. But I knew,
I just knew he was special. I also was aware
enough that I knew that the next dog after him,
that if I did not get my act together, it was
going to be a disaster because no dog was ever
possibly going to live up to that animal. Like
it was impossible. So I did a lot of like mental
prep work. Before and while I had the next more
than one dog, because I was like, because I could
feel it like I could feel how that could potentially
be a really big problem. And I see that with
a lot of students who have had a dog that they've
reached a certain level with. And now they have
expectations and. It can get really messy. Yeah.
You're overthinking everything. You're, you're,
you know, you're really thinking, you're realizing
how much work it was the first time around, you
know, and every dog is so different. You can't
do it exactly the same. Like I, you know, even
when I did it with Ringo, he was so different
than Tara that I had to completely rethink everything
again. And. Working with Freddie is also very,
very different. You know, they're all so different.
And so you really have to be present and not
overthink things, but also be thinking them enough,
right? That you're shaping your criteria and
keeping all of those emotions in check. It's
a lot. It's not easy. Well, we always say, right,
Lori? We always say it's so hard. God training
is so hard. What is that? That Bob Bailey quote,
right? Like dog, like training is simple, but
never easy. It's never easy. It's so hard. Yeah.
But like, see for me, and this is what I tell
people, like, well. I do a couple things that
help me. I don't know if they would help anyone
else, right? Like one thing I do is, because
I've done this with things in my life where I
like, because emotions never serve us, right?
They always get in the way. So like I separate
myself. So like if a friend calls me up and she's
like, drama, drama, drama, what do I do? And
I go, well, if it happened, if this was happening
to me, what would you say? And they know the
answer immediately because they have now separated
themselves from the emotion. Right. So I'll do
that with training. I'll be like, OK, I'm frustrated.
OK, wait a minute. If this was my student's dog
and this was happening, what would I tell them?
And I'm like, oh, duh. Like, I know the answer.
Like, what am I doing? Like, you know, you know
that. So I'll tell people do that. I also like
I have my students like. what would Patriot say?
So I'm like, I don't care if what you guess is
completely wrong. It doesn't matter. I'm not
going to judge you, but sent type up your problem,
right? Cause I do online teaching. So type up
your problem, give me your video submission and
give me a solution. Doesn't matter. It could
be a shot in the dark. Does not matter. Just
something. So they start thinking about what
would not, what would they say? What would I
say? And that like gives them that degree, weird
separation thing. And they're able to do it.
And literally in a few weeks, they're starting
to get it right. Yeah. That's a great way of
thinking about it. And then the other thing I
do is I'm like, just pretend you're a detective,
right? Gather data. Like they're just. data points
it's just information right so here's the data
the data is in these circumstances this happened
in this circumstance that happened what is the
data what are the possibilities of what's different
or whatever like look at it just as raw data
and that's it nothing else right like stop with
the emotional stuff because it never helps They
can only really dogs can only really, you know,
any learner, right? They, all they can do is,
is try with the information that they have. Right.
So yeah, the, the, just going with what the behavior
that you see, right. Is, is the best way to troubleshoot
things sometimes. Yeah. So this is like, I just,
my brain just went like completely shooting off
and a completely. off on a tangent. Like, I wonder
why, do you think people that do like, like high
end competitive dressage do any form of like
clicker training? Cause I almost feel like if
like the dog, the horse is so highly, highly
motivated for food and it generalizes so well,
like you could teach it things like lunging.
Right. And then like, That's what I do with Roger.
I know. Yeah, I mean, but 99%. You need to start
like some, like an online, you need to start
something. You do. I told you that all the way
back then. I know. And I'm still going to say
it because. You're right. It's amazing. I mean,
it's, yeah. And, you know, so. 99 % of the horses
out there are still very much traditionally trained.
Positive reinforcement is progressing for horses,
even a lot more so than 10 years ago when you
and I were hanging out. But it's still very much
fringe, still very, very much where dogs were
like 75 years ago. But I do think it's very,
very possible. I mean, I... The staff that I
worked with with Roger, he was traditionally
trained, so I would call him like a crossover
horse crossing over into positive reinforcement.
But it's so amazing to see how much work he was
willing to do when he was internally motivated
to earn food rewards versus running away from
force or fear. Right. Like because when we do
lunging with a horse, you are essentially holding
their head with a line and then you use a whip
behind them and they run forward. They end up
running in a circle because you're holding on
to their head. Right. And so. reason they're
moving forward is to get away from something
icky. And that's very, very different than choosing
to move forward because you want to. Even if
the motivator is food or praise or scratches,
the expression of behavior that I got from him
was so different. He used his body joyfully.
He was lofty. He would even Even out in the field,
you know, it was almost like he would offer behaviors
in the same way that a joyful dog is like, look,
I'm happy I'm spinning for you, right? It's kind
of the same thing for him out there in the field.
He'd be like, look at me with my big lofty canter
and now I'm lifting my head and arching my neck.
Aren't I sexy, right? And he would offer those
things just for funsies because he knew that
it was potentially going to get reinforced. And
that's coming from a way different place than
being. moving forward because you're getting
away from something yucky I think that there's
so much untapped potential in positive reinforcement
with horses it's it's to me it's mind -boggling
how like what we could potentially do yeah I
agree and I would love I would love to see like
if more people were doing that because I agree
because like it just their whole emotional state
is different I'm kind of obsessed with this one
horse I think I might I'm so obsessed with it.
I might name my puppy it. Do you watch, do you
ever watch like dressage videos online? Like
you should look up Zonic Plus. Have you seen
that horse? I haven't. Oh my God. It's a young
black stallion. And this guy does this really
high, high end, like world -class dressage with
this horse. and it's young it's like eight they've
been doing phenomenal and um he talks about how
he cares about the horse being happy and comfortable
and i'm not saying he's clicker training but
and i'm supple and you went watching the horse
like i've sometimes watched like he does freestyle
dressage so i've watched some of his runs like
multiple times because they give me so much joy
because it's so beautiful this horror like you
could tell it's like light yeah and you know
so clearly you know his training method who knows
maybe i'm dead wrong and he beats the heck out
of it and whatever but i don't think so i doubt
it i don't like it No, no. Yeah. And, you know,
a lot of what I did with with Tara was dressage
based, you know, and she was such a big dog that.
I almost had to teach her dressage level stuff
in order for her to be able to do freestyle,
right? Like for such a big dog physically. Yeah.
You know, so you can, I mean, I clicker trained
all of that with Tara extension and collection
of her trot, you know, doing side passes, all
of that sort of stuff. You can do it with a dog.
You can do it with a horse. I'm really excited
to try things with Brina because, you know, starting
with a younger horse that. doesn't have like
Roger had a lot of physical limitations and as
he got older so for her she has some physical
limitations we're doing some rehab work with
her but I feel very much like I'm doing with
her what I did with Roger. Everybody with Roger
was like, oh, you should just stop riding him.
And I rode him until he was 30. You know, we
continued to ride because I was able to communicate
with him in different ways with the clicker training.
So I was able to teach him things to keep him
safe, but also. getting him to be self -motivated
to carry himself properly and stay strong. I'm
doing very similar things with Brina. They, you
know, she basically has a career ending injury
and I'm already back riding her and I'm working
on building up her motivation and, and her strength.
And I'm so excited to see what I can. unveil
in there right like that beautiful movement and
the expression of movement um when they're joyful
it's yeah I'm just so excited to to kind of find
that level with her like with Roger I would when
I couldn't ride anymore we would um go over to
hiking trails and We would do just walks and
I would do, you know, like walk, trot and canter,
just running around in the field with him, literally
like an off leash dog. And so I'm really excited
to be able to get to that level with Brina where
she finds it fun and joyful to express herself
that way instead of running away from something.
You know how Bob Bailey has chicken camps? Yeah.
You should get like a bunch of people to volunteer
their horses because I will go and have horse
training camps. Oh, let's do it. That would be
so exciting. I would totally do it. Right? Because
I find that when you train a different species.
Like, I think, too, for a lot of people, A, like,
again, now it takes some pressure off, right?
Because now it's not your dog and you don't have
this goal and it's not life or death because
we all know if your dog doesn't do what you want,
it's the end of the world. And but you also you
also can't just. Do your like click, cheat, click,
cheat, because it's not going to work. Right.
Because the animal is going to learn differently.
Like you kind of just explain like how the horse
learns differently. Just like when I trained
Q the pig, like we had to figure out, wait, how
does he actually learn? Because he learned differently.
We still use a clicker, but he learned differently.
And so they have to like step outside that. And
then I think they really do have to. utilize
that observation piece right because you got
to figure it out yep yep the horses are not going
to fill in the blanks for you like dogs will
there you go see i'm giving you all these ideas
we'll have horse camp you guys can come horse
camp i would love that horse camp let's do it
Let's do it. Then you're going to start training.
I was telling Lori, like where I started, I just
started doing nose work with my dogs and the
place where she has, where I go for lessons,
the, on the property, the people that own the
property, they have chickens. Day one, I show
up there, there's snow on the ground, you know,
and I'm like, chickens, will they let us use
the chickens? Can we try chickens? I'm like,
and she looks at me like, You know, I think they
would. So I'm waiting for the snow to melt and
then I'm going to be like, all right, let's talk
to the owners because we got to have our own
little chicken. That would be hilarious. That
would be hilarious. I certainly know enough horses
around here. We could certainly do that. Right.
Wouldn't that be a cool thing? And I can't imagine
like. liability aside if you own a horse right
like and someone could teach your horse something
functional you should be like oh i don't know
how open -minded horse people are i mean like
i know with me anything training anything you
want to show me something here here's my dog
show me something like i can't get enough of
training i'll bet we would get plenty of volunteers
Plenty of volunteers. I mean, honestly, there's
so many things that with Roger and with Brina
both, I think you'd get plenty of volunteers
because I think that there are, just like with
dogs, there are certain personalities that are
going to respond well to traditional methods,
right? But there's also certain personalities
that are not going to respond well to traditional
methods. And Roger and Brina. especially with
Roger. Like, I can't tell you as a, as a young
teenager, there's so many walls I hit with him
using traditional methods where we would go 10
rounds and still like, you know, the horse wins
because traditional methods can fail sometimes
with certain personalities. Like he was very
opinionated. And if I was going to pick a fight
with him, I ate the dirt. I would fall off. so
there were certain things that i just learned
to like live with right like this is a quirk
he's going to be excited out on trail rides and
he can't walk home he's too excited he's just
going to jig on the way home or he's just going
to always be wiggly when i give him a bath this
is just something i have to live with because
whips and yanking on his face and saying, whoa,
and trying to like shove them against a wall.
That's just, it's not going to work to get him
to hold still. It's just, you know, bare minimum.
I might just like have a really angsty horse
bath, but with clicker training, I was able to
solve those problems in like one or two sessions.
It was. ridiculous. It was like all I had to
do, I solved the jigging thing on trail rides
with one session. Literally all I did was I brought
my clicker and I brought my treats. And if he
even slowed down in his trotting home. I would
click and treat him. I just captured it. And
he was like, oh, you want me to go slower? Well,
how about a walk? I'm like, yeah, click treat,
right? And he's like, oh, you want me to walk?
Click treat. And that's all I had to do was just
capture him going slightly slower than usual.
And he was way more motivated for the treats
than he was to get home to the barn. It was so
easy. And the same thing with the bath. All I
had to do was break it down like I would any
old training thing. Here's a little bit of water
with the hose. click treat for your feet being
still oh it's splashing over here to the side
click treat for your feet being still oh it's
touching your hoof now click treat for your feet
being still and then poof problem solved as i
built it up from there it was so much easier
than just saying like whoa whoa whoa a million
times and yanking on his halter and you know
that's all that traditional training would give
you, or put the water on him until he finally
gives up and stands there. But that was never
going to work with his personality. Flooding
did not work with him. So I think that there's
plenty of horses out there who potentially have
realized that. they're willing to put up the
fight against the traditional training and it
doesn't necessarily work for them. Or maybe you
get the behavior, but then you get all this icky,
yucky, emotional stuff that comes along with
it. I think we'd probably have tons of people
who would be like, yeah, if you want to try and
fix this problem with clicker training here.
Right. Yeah. Well, the other thing though, that
you're pointing out that is really important
that you're just kind of, like glossing over
because you're a clicker, you're a clicker trainer,
you're a shaper, right? Basically shaping. Like
I struggle with getting my students to understand
shaping because they want to go from like, okay,
my dog just learned how to rotate their butt
to the right. Now it should find front perfectly.
Dude, no, like they struggle with approximation
and you just. gave like a bunch of perfect examples
of how you did not go from a trot to a walk,
how you went a little slower, a little slower
and a little slower. And then you got to walk
or how you didn't go from like, I'm hosing you
full on. I'm not hosing you to I'm hosing you
full on like that. Baby steps, those baby steps,
like and how tiny can you break something down?
I think the ultimate irony is the reason people
don't break it down is because subconsciously
they want to get there faster. And I'm always
like, let me tell you, the faster way to get
there is to break it into tiny pieces. You get
there way faster, way faster. Yeah. Yeah. Breaking
it down. And you're going to get the emotional
piece that you want to go with it as well. Right.
That's really, really important as well, because
you could get there faster, sloppier, but with
more frustration and stuff, you're going to have
to go back and try to clean up later. And then
that's way harder to clean up than just doing
it slow but fast, you know, by teeny, teeny baby
steps from the beginning. Yeah, definitely. And
getting the right emotional piece in there. Right.
Emotional piece going on with it. That's a big
thing that I'm working on with Brina a lot because
she is also traditional trained, right? 99 %
of horses are. She was very, she was an interesting
mix when I first bought her. She was a little
shut down. She's this giant horse. And when I
test rode her a couple of times, I remember telling
the owner, I feel like there's a big engine in
there, but she's not willing to give it to me.
It was like. I had to squeeze so hard and, and
really get after her to try and get her to even
just give me anything more than like a pokey
little jug. And, and, and there's, I mean, she
was like this big couch potato. Cause she's part
draft horse. She's a big beast. So she was a
little shut down. But then when you would get
her to do things, it was with pinned ears and
threatening to bite and like, oh, I'll do the
thing. But you know how I feel about it. And
so I've really been doing lots of just teeny
baby steps. Like, it's real interesting once
I've slowed down and kind of listened to how
she feels about things. She's got a weird, had
a weird thing about stepping up on a stool next
to her that got lots of pinned ears and bite
threats. And anything you throw over her back,
like a saddle pad or a saddle or, God forbid,
a blanket. She hates blankets. So I've done a
lot of start buttons and just lots of just reinforcements
for. teeny, teeny baby steps. Like I walked next
to the stool. Oh, I put my foot on the stool,
but I didn't even put my weight on it. And reinforcing
not just the calmness, but calmness, holding
still and happy face, right? Like ears forward,
head forward. And now we have this lovely rapport
where when I walk up to her with a saddle in
my hand and I have to step on the stool to put
it on her back. She looks at me, she puts her
head forward and she puts her ears forward and
she just drops her head a little bit. Just kind
of saying like, yep, go ahead. You can do that,
right? And it's by doing all those little baby
steps to get there. And we got there quickly,
but you had to start with the baby steps. It's
that whole go slow to go fast. Yep. So did you
buy her because you knew she would be a challenge
and you just wanted to like get a challenge?
Because you didn't make it sound like a horse
I would want to buy. No, I did the exact thing
of what I said I was going to do. You know, it's
like it's like it's like getting a God. People
do this to me all the time. It's like people
ask me what breed of dog they should get. I tell
them what would be perfect for their lifestyle
and then they go do the opposite. Oh, my God.
I could strangle them when they do that. So here
I am talking to all my friends going, you know.
When Tara and Ringo died, I was traumatized and
I didn't want to buy a puppy, but I really wanted
to spend their last years devoting all my attention
to them. So I didn't get a puppy. Bad family
planning, right? So when Roger was really, truly
ready to be retired, like the last year of his
life, I could tell he didn't want to do stuff
anymore. He just wanted to be loved on. Great.
Now I'm going to work on my family planning.
I'm not going to wait for him to pass before
I get a horse. So I'd been searching. I told
all my friends, what I'm going to get is this
perfect husband safe horse. He's already trained.
No matter how busy I get, I can just get on him
and go. It's just, that's just what I need. I'm
too busy to train a horse right now. And when
I get bored of that, because it's not going to
be a training challenge, I'll just give it to
my husband. That can be his trail riding horse.
And then I'll get my next horse. This is my good
family planning plan. So I go out and I ride
all the horses that fit that category, right?
I think I test. rode like six or seven horses
and just there was no spark it was like dating
it was like none of this like I was like he's
perfect on paper he's perfect on paper but it
doesn't give me the tingles I was like, I'm bored.
I don't go home thinking about him. I'm like,
I just, it doesn't do it for me. And I don't
know why. And I thought I was going to get a
gelding. And, you know, I kept looking at horses
online. And I, for some reason, I was just really
drawn to mares. And I've never been drawn to
mares. I've never been a person who enjoyed riding
mares. I was always a gelding person. But I kept
looking. And the first. And Brina was the only
mare that I actually test rode. But I just, you
know, there was a spark. I could see her. She
was kind of grouchy. She was kind of like, there
was no spark in her eyes. She looked at me like,
what? Like, I don't give a shit whether you walk
away or not. Like, you're giving me a peppermint?
Make my day. I don't care. When I rode her, she
kicked, she bucked. It was hard to steer. But
there was a start. It was love at first sight.
It's terrible. I went home and I couldn't stop
thinking about her. Yeah, I could feel I was
like, there's something here. You know, it's
weird. It just made no sense. But I went home.
I kept thinking about her. And, you know, I couldn't
wait to ride her again. And I went back up and
I rode her again. And I was like, shit, shit,
I really like this horse. Like, this is the complete
opposite of everything that I thought. And I
thought about it for weeks and weeks. And then
I just kind of got to a point where I was like,
I can't stop thinking about her. done. It's a
done deal. I'm going to take her home. Women
love bad situations. I'm such a sucker. I'm such
a sucker for that. I'm like, oh, it's broken.
Let me fix it. Let me fix it. That's it. And
a lot of her behavior issues, like now that I've
really been uncovering so much of this, a lot
of her behavior issues are physical issues. I
mean, it's so interesting in the horse world.
I think that there's so much focus on soundness,
right? People focus so much on soundness in horses
and a lot less on the relationship. So much of
what everybody was telling me about her issues
was behavior. They're like, oh, she's stubborn.
She just doesn't like to work. She has a bad
work ethic. Oh, you just got to warm her up.
You need to work her more consistently. And when
I brought her home and started working with her,
within the first week, I was like, whoa, there's
something way more serious going on. And I talked
to her previous owner. I talked to her previous
trainer. And everyone even had me convinced that
it was behavior. And I had to go to three different
vets, and it turned out it was physical. She
had a medial ligament holding one of her tendons
in place that was completely torn. And they kept
saying it was behavioral, which is really opposite
of what so much is considered usual. Problem
solving in the horse world, they focus so much
on soundness, usually very rarely on behavior,
but it ended up being a soundness issue. And
now that I've worked her through that, the motivation
and the enthusiasm to work is like almost overwhelming.
Like I do not have an engine problem. That horse
has so much power and so much motivation that.
we're not cantering at this point. I can't even
handle the canter. It's so much motivation. I'm
like, we need to make sure we have breaks before
we hit that much adrenaline and gas. You know,
and in the dog world, I feel like it's the exact
opposite. It's so much more about relationship.
And, you know, you taught me so much, Petra,
about really being able to see soundness, even
those little teeny things can make a huge difference.
So many of the behavior cases that I see here,
just at Wonder Dogs, so much of it, I can be
resolved through physical health. It's such a
thing that people think is always a training
or relationship issue. And so much of it can
be soundness. It's amazing. Yeah, that, I mean,
I will say, well, there's a big push, really
big. There was always some emphasis on it, like
at FENZI. but there's like a huge push in that
direction. Now, probably because Denise has had
her dogs, her dog has had some health issues,
right? Soundness issues. So then that becomes
a thing. And then, you know, she's really public
about it. So now, which is good because there's,
I think this really growing trend and emphasis
on. the physical aspect of it. I always found
like the biggest challenge I had with the physical
stuff is, you know, I come from an athletic background,
so it makes sense to me, right? But 99 % of dog
trainers, zero physical, you know, zero sport,
whatever background. So that's not even on their
radar. And when I would try to explain to them,
like it's, Be proactive. Like it helps your dog
and on and on. Never worked. Never resonated.
I used to like do surveys, like everything. The
only time it resonated and resonated, really
resonated was when their dog was hurt. Then they
understood. And then they were on board for life.
Like every dog after that. like all in, get it,
understand it now, whatever. But boy was, and
I still think to a certain extent, it is a huge
challenge to really get people to understand
that it is important, that it is part of it,
that it matters. What an impact it has on the
dog's ability to learn and work. Mm hmm. Yeah,
1000%. You know, it's it's such a huge cultural
shift that we still need to see in the dog world,
you know. Because they can listen to you saying
it, but there's a million other people in their
world saying the exact opposite, probably also
including their vet nine times out of ten. I
can't tell you how many times that I took Tara
to her GP saying, you know, oh, she's doing this
weird thing with her shoulder. And I would make
him come out into the parking lot and watch her
do side passes and he can't see it. Versus if
you, you know, if I had you watch it, you'd be
like, oh, yeah, I totally see that. Right. Like
it takes a level of. subtlety and eye training
to see the subtleties versus like a dead lame
limping thing. Right. But, um, you know, there
was even, um, a behavior case that I saw was
probably a month ago now, cause she has started
in our reactive dog program now, but there's
literally, um, a, a veterinarian about an hour
away from us that brought her dog to me because
Her coworker, the other veterinarian had brought
her dog to me and her dog was like, had all these
issues, separation anxiety, this extreme phobias,
all these issues. And yes, he had issues. But
I said, I feel like there could be pain complicating
this. And even in my office, I didn't see anything
that, you know, and I've got a well -trained
eye now with all my experience with Tara and
Roger. I didn't see anything, but I said, you
know, I just have this feeling that there could
also be something going on. There was a sudden
onset, which was a big red flag for me of his
behavioral issues. And I said, go home. Here's
the, these, you know, desensitization games that
I want you to play, but I want you to put them
on some pain meds for just 10 days and let's
see what happens. And literally in three days,
she sent me an email and said, you gave me my
dog back. She was a vet, you know, she does this
all day, every day, you know? And so I think
that so much of dog training is relationship
focused, but I wish that there was a better balance
in the dog world. I wish there was a better balance
of physical health. And in the horse world, I
wish there was a better balance on relationship
health. That's not based on punishment. I think
the big problem is the dogs can't say it and
people can't see it. And our dogs like, Their
pain tolerance is so high that they'll work and
keep working even when, like, I mean, I would
see it all the time. Like agility, I'd sit there,
I'd be like, I can't even watch. Sometimes I'm
watching an obedience show, I'm like, oh, my
God, I can't even watch. But people don't see
it. And I have had like similar situation. Like
I've had people come, like they were coming from
all over and they've gone to multiple, multiple
vets, not throwing shade on vets. They're not
trained to notice certain things. Right. And
they're like, I just had this feeling, but I
don't, you know, like. they they didn't catch
it like so I do think like rehab people that
do rehab that's growing but even then sometimes
if they're not seeing performance dogs right
because what our dogs do is very different and
it's very specialized yeah Yep. Yeah. And, you
know, I would say the same cultural issue happens
in the horse world. I honestly am the same way
about a lot of competitive venues with horses
I can't watch because I see the stress and the
pain in their faces. You know, their bodies are
beautiful, their movements are beautiful, but
I can't see past the tension in the face, the
pinned ears, the wrinkled noses, the wrinkled
eyes, the swishing tails. Those are stress signals
and culturally. Speaking as part of that culture,
raised in that culture, we are not raised to
see those things as stress, pain, discomfort,
fear, or anxiety. We're just taught like, oh,
he's just working hard. Or, oh, he's grouchy.
You hear grouchy and stubborn and dominant thrown
around in the horse world the way that we used
to hear it all the time in the dog world before
there was a huge change to positive reinforcement.
It's so interesting in that cultural way. People
just, they don't see it because they're not taught
to culturally. You know, it's just so interesting
in the, at least thankfully, it's growing in
the horse world. People are paying more attention.
And even publicly and in the media, I think people
are starting to pay attention thanks to some
of the stuff that was happening in the Olympics.
But it's... It's changing, but it's a cultural
challenge because whereas specialized people
like us, we would see those things, but there's
still lots of other voices around still saying
the same old things. Yeah. I think it still happens
in dogs too, you know, where people don't think
of that as like a possible thing. So that's good.
People think about that. It plays a role. It's
a factor. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jen, this was so,
so good. Thank you so much for doing this. Yay,
this was really fun. And I'm super excited to
follow Brina's journey because I've seen her.
Why is she sleeping on a bed? That's a really
good question. How did that start? Yeah, she
has a big, right now it's a queen size, but she
did have a king. It just got dirty and I had
to start over. But she has a big queen foam size
mattress that I got for free off of Facebook
Marketplace. And she was, she, I had thought
about this with Roger when he. at one point of
wanting to really like give him a softer place
to lay down. Cause as a senior horse, you know,
he lays down and curls up to sleep and he would
get sores on his hocks because the skin there
is really thin and you can put like eight to
10 inches of shavings in their bed to get them
to lay down, but it wasn't always supportive
enough. And so I had to put boots on his hocks
to protect him when he was laying down. And With
with Brina, I was kind of wondering the same
thing. Like, I wonder if if I can make her more
comfortable because she had some hock sores when
I first bought her. And so, you know, I was giving
her lots of shavings and I I stumbled upon this
this website called Pasture Puffs. And it's a
place that makes literally. dog beds for horses.
They're like, they're really fancy and they do
like waterproof covers and all of those sorts
of things. And it actually, instead of it just
being a nice thing, they were putting it as a
solution for people who have allergies and can't
do tons of shavings or hay as bedding for their
horses and, you know, less cleanup and all that
sort of stuff. But the more I thought about it,
the more I was like, we don't expect our dogs.
to sleep the same place that they go to the bathroom.
And in horses, we do that. We're like, here's
the shavings. This is where you go to the bathroom.
This is also where you sleep. And I thought,
that's disgusting. Like, why would we do this?
It's just such a cultural thing that they do.
So I got her a mattress pad, just like a little
three inch one to see what would happen. I threw
it down. I put a couple of treats on it. That's
all I did. And literally I have cameras in her
stall. I checked her camera that very first night
and she had curled up and slept on it. She immediately
said, this is cozy. This is great. I love this.
It's not also my toilet, right? I just put it
on like you would with a dog. I put it next to
her food on the far end of her stall. So one's
a potty area. One's a sleeping eating area. She
immediately took to it and slept on it. And I
literally cried. We had a couple of tech issues
with this episode. So at the end, people just
kind of dropped out. So Lori and I want to thank
Jen so, so, so much for taking time out of our
schedule and giving us such a fun, amazing insight
into. not just training dogs, but training horses.
I know Lori and I really enjoyed it and we hope
you did too. And as always, we thank all of you
for listening. Bye -bye.