Off The Clock. Ep 43

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing position and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode forty three where we will be talking about Off the Clock, which is a book I wrote that is out today. If you're listening to this on the day that this podcast comes out May twenty nine, if you're listening to it afterwards, it should be available now. So exciting. So you've probably been counting down to this day for quite a while. Yeah, we got the pub date. You get the pub date close to a year ahead of time. I mean the book. The traditional book publishing process US is lengthy. I guess it's one way to describe it. We assigned a publication date probably in summer of twenty seventeen. I actually know that my next publication date after this is March twelfth, twenty nineteen, So I have that set. Anyone wants to mark their calendars now, But yeah, I know I've been counting down for a while. That's so exciting, And so what's the plan. Is there going to be a big celebration. I can imagine some sort of like you know, literary party where everyone gets together and talks about the book and you read a little passage, but maybe that's a little Hollywood. Yeah, there'll be a small tist with some people in New York, so I'm looking forward to that. But oh, but that's exciting. That is kind of like what I picture exact. So you're going to New York with like your agent and your editor and yeah, a lot of people who are involved in it, and you know, various people. I know, we're you know all that, and husband awesome toast its launch. I you know, book parties sort of add to the work, but it's good to feel. It helps you feel like a real author. Well, I totally if I live closer to you, I would be wrangling for an invite right now. How about a book tour? Any plans to go on the road with us. I mean I sort of travel to talk about my books in the sense of doing a lot of speaking engagements for you know, companies and conventions. As it is, so I don't really have any specifically that we go to talk about the book. The honest trait is live events aren't really necessarily a great way to sell books. Oh interesting, Yeah, Now, I think a lot of authors sort of have this idea of like, oh, I need to spend a month on book tour, going various places that you know, you go speak in a like there'll be places that'll be happy to have you come speak for free about your book. I mean, people are, you know, looking for speakers. But you know, I've had people tell me that they go to a whole event and they for a bookseller and then like, you know, maybe three people buy a book. Like people don't like the only way to sort of really make that work is if you have a ticket price for the event, people get a book as part of the ticket price. Then you sort of like force them. But you know, it's just really the reason people buy books is that they feel like they have a relationship with the author, They're interested in the topic, the readers for starters, they are interested in the topic and know the book is out and that they feel they have a relationship with the author. So a lot of that happens more virtually these days. I mean, it can be through media, but it's also through things like being on people's podcasts and the podcaster recommends it, or you know, on people's blogs, like you do an interview on somebody's blog and then the blogger recommends it. Social media channels and stuff like that. So yeah, a lot of that so interesting. I wonder if to some extent, some of these book towards you see are more about getting the media attention about the tour than the tour itself, because I'm thinking about, you know, some popular authors that it seems like, yeah, maybe they put all by putting their tour on Instagram, they're getting more traffic to Instagram. So it's not the tour, it's I'm saying, it's a little meta. Yeah. Well, and also it sort of depends. I mean, if you're really well known, like if you're a celebrity in your own right, like then people will come to see you. But it's not necessarily about the book. It's that they're coming to see you, which is fine. Again, but if you are not that person, like if you are not a celebrity in your own right, not that many people come out for stuff, it's really hard to make it work. So you know, if you're interested in being efficient as an author, a lot of virtual events, I mean, so you know, I would love to. I am speaking in a couple different places because I have engagements you know, already booked, and we'll certainly try to get like local media and stuff all in there. But yeah, it's it's the whole book tour concept is sort of changing interesting, so everybody, I think I announced on the last episode that I finished the book just a couple of days ago, and it is awesome. So I do want to devote today's episode to talking about some of my favorite parts and asking you some questions that I had about it. The first thing I will say is that it's a very quick it's a pretty quick read. It's not short, but it's like very readable, and it's the kind of book that I don't know if if anyby listened to it last week's episode, it's been kind of a rough couple of months. It's the perfect kind of a book. To pull you out of that kind of a phase because there's a lot of discussion and this book is not specifically written for males or females, but I do feel like there's a special nod to the woman going through the early years with their children, which is challenging for many people, and of course many of the listeners to this show, and it really just had it had a lot of practical tips, but then a lot of just sort of deeper food for thought, like and after I've finished, I'll talk about specifics. But after I finished it, I was actually moved to make some changes. And you wouldn't think that since I talked to Laura all the time enviously, I mean, like for example, and then I'm just yacking about on the podcast. Yeah, No, I mean I was. It solidified my intent to go on our spring break trip for example. Good But before we go into that, reminder listeners of how the project came to be and what the March Monday exactly is. Well. So I kind of got the idea for off the Clock when I was running in Maine, just on a morning where I had no obligations whatsoever, which is a rare thing. So this phrase popped into my head as I was running, like oh, I'm off the clock, and I'm like, oh, that'd be a good thing to write a book about. So I've worked with my publisher sort of get it into a good shape of like what we thought would be a good book, and then to have the book of it. What I actually did is exploring this idea of how we feel about time, like what makes us feel relaxed about time or stressed about time? What makes us feel like we have a lot of time, like a lot of good time, and what makes us feel more starved for time or feel like it's passing in a way we don't like, either passing too quickly at times or passing too slowly at other times. And so to get some data about this, I did a big time diary project where I looked at I had nine hundred people with full time jobs and families track their time for a day, just because those are the two categories that various other time diary studies have found people feel the most stressful time. It makes sense like if you have a full time job and you have family, like those are the things that make people feel like they don't have time. So I had these nine hundred people track their time for a day, and I asked them questions about how they felt about their time, you know, whether they felt you know, prisent or distracted, whether they felt like they generally had time for the things they wanted to do, whether they were spending time in ways that made them happy, all sorts of things. Answer you know, the questions on a scale of like strongly disagree to very strongly agree. Assigned people a score and then look at the differences between people who were felt like they had a lot of time had a high time perception score and people who felt starved for time. So I had a low of time perception score. And everyone tracked this March Monday. It was Monday, March twenty seven, twenty seventeen, normal day, you know, nothing crazy going on on that day, but just to say, like, what are the differences and how people who feel like they have a lot of time spend a normal March Monday and people who don't. And so that's what the book is about. The strategies that the people who felt like time is abundant used to reach that place in their life. And there are some you know, real hard statistics in your book that I know you talked about how you got help with and also I like how you're very careful not to always ascribe causation to some of these correlations, but sort of hypothesize about them. Like, for example, you talked to you know, everyone has that same number of hours in the day, and you talked about how, you know, there was a slight difference in the number of hours worked, but it wasn't enough to explain, you know, how the people felt about it. Can you talk about that? Yeah? Different. I mean, the truth is almost everyone worked somewhere between seven and nine hours on that March Monday, right, Like you know, the vast, vast majority of the bell curve was within there. The people who had the highest time perception scores did work about an hour less on that March Monday than the people who had the lowest time perception scores. But the thing is, the people with the lowest scores weren't very far off the average at all. It was it was not that they were working extreme hours. Fourteen yeah, fourteen. It was like, you know, the average was like eight point three and the people at the lowest perception scores were like eight point six. Right, So we're talking in difference of like eight, the really close, very close, So I really couldn't think that I could assign, you know, that as the reason for why they felt starved for time. And interestingly enough, their commutes weren't even that much different either. I mean, there are a few minutes that they were longer, but you know, we're not talking gobs of time. And the truth is the those differences can pretty much be accounted for by more time spent on things like TV for those people who had low time perception scores. So it's just different ways we allocate time and looking at the question of well, why is it what are people doing that makes them feel differently about time? And sometimes it's slightly more obvious stuff, but sometimes it's really not as obvious stuff. So that was interesting too. I love the part about how making life more memorable in different ways can really make you feel like it's been more rich and like there's been more time. And I did you know you mentioned how some people say, oh, wow, how did three years just go by? And it's like, well, because you were doing the same thing every day and your brain kind of chunked it into like one day. Yeah, And I think there's really something to be said for that, and some of that has to do with actually doing things that are different, and some of it has to do with how we think of them. So I talk about a little bit about the different selves the past, present, and future, because that definitely resonated with me as well. And this kind of story is what made me pull the trigger on well, I haven't actually been the work, but decide you're going to go on our vacation this summer exactly to talk about those selves. Well, so, yeah, I mean when we talk about well, I don't where did the time go, what we often mean is I don't remember where the time went. And when you don't remember that where the time went is because the time wasn't particularly memorable, And you know, it becomes easy to sort of tramp through life doing roughly the same thing over and over again. And they could feel very comfortable to do the same thing over and over again. And certainly there are times in life where routines are very good. It would really not be fun to have to think about brushing your teeth every morning. I would just waste a lot of mental energy. But the problem is when too many of these days stack up where you haven't done anything different, then they sort of disappear into these memory sinkholes. Our perception of time is set by how many memories we have of that time. That is one reason that people tend to feel like, you know, their early years, like the years of say sixteen to twenty four were particularly long, because you're setting so many memories during that time period, as as you're making major life choice in many cases, so the question is, well, how can we make life memorable? Then when we're not in you know, sixteen years old and naturally forming memories of the first time, we're doing everything. And I think one thing you can ask yourself was well, how is today going to be different from other days? And thinking if there's at least one way that you can make today different from other days. But the whole idea of these different cells is more getting at the philosophical way we view this. If you think about yourself, you really kind of three selves. You're in terms of our temporal perception, like we have the anticipating self, which is looking forward to the future, right, thinking about things that are going to happen in the future, our lives in the future, all that sort of thing. There is the experiencing self, which is kind of who you are here and now as you are living life in this moment. And then there is the remembering self, which thinks back on the past and all the things you've done in your life at past points, and so all these kind of a role in our identity. And the issue is, as I quote this philosopher is saying, is that we pamper the present like a spoiled child. And what that means is that we give our experiencing selves often a lot more attention than these other versions of ourselves. So if you think about this in terms of like trying to do memorable things with our lives and do fun, exciting things, you'd be like, oh, well, the anticipating self would really love to go to this art museum exhibit, like on a Friday night, Like I know the art museum has live music and a bar on Friday night, So it would be like this perfect fun Friday night activity, like you know, if I could get myself to do it, And you know, so the anticipating self is excited about it. You know that the remembering self would probably look back fondly on it too, like how awesome you're looking at these great paintings on a Friday night, maybe you made a new friend in the line for Chardonay or something. But the end, the experiencing self is the one who actually has to get her car and go to the museum and has to deal with the traffic and the rain and all that, and the experiencing self is tired because she just got home from work, and so she doesn't want to do it, and so she throws this tantrum and be like, yeah, I'm tired. The art museum will still be her next Friday, like I don't have to do this, And then we wind up spending a lot more time on these things that are sort of effortless fun, like you know, TV, social media scrolling all that, versus this effortful fun like actually getting yourself to the art museum. So, you know, it's kind of a thing of like saying, well, let's remember this is really a three actor play. It shouldn't just be a monologue, and so we need to put in memorable stuff and trust that if our anticipating self looks forward to it, and our remembering self will have enjoyed having done it, probably we can power through some of the experiencing self. Yes, I mean I think I do think there's a line. I mean not always, does it make sense. I remember there were like at least two events that I missed out on during pregnancy because my experiencing self was just so miserable. Like I think there was a concert I didn't go to in the spring because I like every time I stood up, I wanted to vomit. So there's a lie. So you know, you need to find where that line is and if it's just kind of like mild discomfort like my well, this is sort of anticipatory, but I've been thinking about, like, oh, packing and getting on the plane with my baby. But the truth is, like it is true, I'm not gonna number one. That's not what I'm going to really anticipate. I'm gonna be thinking about all the fun things I can do with my friends and all the fun things available in the Northwest. Am I remembering self, I'm sure is not going to be fixated on that, or even if it does. We have these like really funny memories from the time that we went to North Carolina with Annabelle and Cameron, which was kind of miserable from an experiencing perspective, at times, but there's like also hilarious stories and it brought us together as a family, and we have like super cute pictures and I think, if there's something great that we did, and this chapter really made me kind of think about that a lot harder, and it made it kind of a no brainer, like we have to go on this trip because we're not going to have these little kids again, and because we're gonna look back on it finally, and because it's going to be exciting about some of the fun things that we can do, and the experiencing is going to pass. Yeah. I mean, you're gonna get to see your friends. If you don't make this trip, like, you won't see these friends that you're close to, and so your experiencing self is actually going to enjoy it. I mean, there's some parts that your experiencing is going to enjoy some parts and that's you can enjoy not enjoy other parts, but probably the balance the overall is going to be But that's the thing. I mean, the experiencing self is pretty much never entirely blissful. I mean, you could be like out of gorgeous summer night concert, you know, beautiful weather, listening to your favorite band, you like my toe Witches, you know, I mean, that's be honest, or like your your seventy five percent rule with your with your kids that if you're out with all four of them, even if if okay, Doc, I like my numbers, but there's very few things that are truly fun for the whole family in the sense that I have four generally happy kids. But I have four of them, and so if each one of them is happy seventy five percent of the time, that means when I have the experience ending happy. Yeah, if it's an independent event like their uhappiness or happiness like that means that only you know, thirty one percent of the time do I actually have all four children happy at the same time, Because you know, a quarter you know, minus a quarter minus, like you know, it adds up. So like once you know that, you can be a little bit more philosophical about the real And the truth is, if you had done that math and said, well, sixty percent of the time, my experiencing self is gonna be sad because one kids annoyed, then you would never do, never do anything right, And that would kind of be too bad too, because then I would have, like you know ten years where I've done nothing eleven years now. So yeah, no, I think, like you said, there's a line like I'm not saying that you know, if you are are completely and totally exhausted, you're forty one weeks pregnant, and you should like go in that marathon tomorrow. No, that there's sometimes that you can't. But if you just think there will be a few uncomfortable moments, maybe you can push through those and maybe those will even create a good story later. So so something to think about, and speaking about letting eleven years go, you have a whole chapter about not filling time, not using not using time mindlessly, and really thinking about what you're putting in those calendar slots as you're doing it. And I want you to talk about technology a little bit, and I wanted to share a trick that I really liked and I'm going to keep in mind, which is the would I do this tomorrow? Yeah. So I think in order to have space for adventures in our lives, we need to make sure we're not over committed with stuff that we don't want to do. And so one way to sort of check that tendency, because obviously it can be hard to say no, and many women in particular, you know, no seems like a bad thing to have said to somebody. You're disappointing someone. Oh my goodness, we're disappointing someone. Earth will stop spending on its axis. But that's why we can honestly think. And so when you're asked to do something in the future, like it's hard to say no. And the further it is in the future, the more people tend to feel like they're assigning it to a completely different person, like, oh, yeah, it'll never be October or October me won't be busy. Yeah, October, we could totally do this, but you know you're going to be just as busy in October, like there'll be just as much stuff going on. So a better question to ask yourself, to sort of bring it more to like actually feeling the pain in your experience it self, is to say, well, would I do this tomorrow? And you know, of course you're busy tomorrow, Like, yes, you're booked up solid tomorrow, which, by the way, you will be in October as well, But like, would you be tempted to cancel stuff? Like would you be tempted to move things around to fit in this new opportunity and if you would like great, you know, like you probably will feel just as excited in October. But if the answer is like, absolutely not, no way would I ever even be tempted to do this tomorrow, you know, probably that should be your answer for October too, Like, don't fill time just because it's currently open, because opportunities will come up, and maybe an opportunity that's a ten will come up, and if you said yes to something that's like a six or a seven, well that doesn't leave space for the time. Yes, And that's been something that I've been trying to be careful about my days off, not just putting stuff in there just because the time is there, but really kind of thinking about it before I commit to anything. So I really liked that try. I'm glad the podcast that made totally made the cut. I would do this tomorrow, maybe we can. And in this chapter you also talked a little bit about the role of technology and phones. And by the way, this made me think about one of the people who blurved your book on the back, cal Newport. It kind of rang true with some of his thoughts on technology. Yeah. No, I mean because I had this time diary stuff. I've found that people who felt most relaxed about their time reported checking their phones a lot less frequently than the people who felt less stressed. And you know, some of that could be a correlation, like if you have a more stressful job, maybe you feel like you need to check your phone more often. It's not that it was the checking the phone that made you stressed. It was that you know, you have a stressful job, and that's what's making you stressed. It's a different root cause. But there's been a lot of other research that looks at that the same person who checks their phone less frequently feels more relaxed than that person checking their phone a lot. So you know, sometimes we have to look at our phones, right like that's life. But if you can lower the frequency a little bit, then you will feel like you have more open space and feel like you have more time because because there's no question, nothing makes time go by more mindlessly and more like, hey, what happened to that hour than like, I mean nothing, It like just disappears, appears, and we had what it often is it makes people feel like they have less free time, even though that is one hundred percent like leisure time, and it's just that it doesn't feel relaxing, like we had this open time and then we chose to chop it up with nothing, like nothing important. So I'm not saying get rid of the phone. I'm sure a lot of people are listening to our podcasts on their phones. That's not there's nothing wrong with the phones are a wonderful tool. It's just a question of are you checking it mindfully or mindlessly? And there are ways to kind of catch yourself in it. Wants to kind of put it in airplane mode a bit more frequently, right because often we're looking at it in order to check the time, which you need to know the time, like if something's coming up, but you don't need to do the other stuff that you then do once you open it to see the time. So if it's an airplane mode, you won't be able to do that. So it's just a little mindfulness check. Yes, And we've talked about other kind of technological hacks previously, like tracking that specifically in addition to tracking time. And I do think that if I ever get good at tracking time, I want to do some sort of correlation with that moment app to see how things kind of like correlate. But no, I thought that that was a really good point talk to us about lingering versus saving, because you went into both of them and I kind of thought of them as the same thing. But you there's not really a huge difference between it. I'm using the lingering idea in general of trying to stay in good moments. Really savoring is the same thing. It's just a got a little bit more of the kind of pleasurable connotation that not only are you experiencing something enjoyable, but you're noticing that you're enjoying it. And by adding this second layer, this appreciation layer, you can kind of change the experience of time. You can make it seem bigger, more exciting, make it more of a memory, so it stands out more in your picture of where your time is going. And that can make people feel like they have more time. So it's really an acquired skill, I got to say, because you know, it's like bad stuff is right in your face, like you got to deal with it. Good stuff not so often, like it's harder to actually notice that, like all is okay right now, I'm actually enjoying myself. Ooh, look at me. Enjoying myself, like, isn't this wonderful? Yeah, it takes a difference out of skills, and you mentioned that doing a gratitude list is one potential way of forcing yourself to notice those things. There definitely was like a mindfulness bent to that chapter, particularly for someone who is not into the meditation or kind of woo woo sing. I'm more into the practice stuff. You know, you can go woo woo if you want, like I'm sure people will do that, but it's more about like, if you know that something good is coming up in your life, you can make sure to stretch that experience of time by using a few techniques and something I did a couple of months ago. I have this piece of music that I really love, the bak B Minor Mass, which I was supposed to sing in college, but I left for a study a broad thing right before the concert, so I never actually got to sing it. So I learned the whole thing but never sang it. So it's always this like missed thing in my life. And it's got the most gorgeous alto solo. And I'm in a choir where our professional alto ringer is very very good she's got a gorgeous voice, and I was like, I would so love to hear her sing this piece. And then it wound up on our church calendar. I don't know, the fates aligned, and she's gonna granted, she was singing it with a you know, piano. She wasn't singing it with a full orchestra, which would have been a lot more awesome, but whatever, she was singing it, and so I saw it on the calendar coming up. I actually put it as a personal priority for my week, like I make I make my priorities for the week ahead. On Friday, like I listed listening to her sing that as one of my you know, top personal priorities for the week. So I knew it was coming up, like I made sure, you know, to see it in the church bulletin, like I was fully aware as she was going forward to singing it, like I'm listening so carefully the whole time, like fully aware. And then I made sure to like write about it afterwards. So I actually remember those four minutes, Like how many four minute chunks of life do we actually remember, you know? And so I remember those minutes means those four minutes have kind of like expanded to be way more than just four minutes. And and so we have the power to do that when we know we've got good things that we can choose to savor. No, I love that. The next thing I took I was really excited about and kind of inspired about us, particularly for what my life is. Maybe a little less crazy not crazy full would be your discussion of incremental progress and how people really kind of underestimate what you can do a little bit of at a time. Yeah, I mean so I talk in one of my chapters about this idea of like letting go go of big expectations in the short run and just having low expectations in the short run, but if they are hit consistently, that's what enables big things in the long run. I Mean, there's a great you know saying from Avid of like dripping water hollows the stone, right, And it's not that each little drip of water as much on its own, but when they keep going and going and going, that's when you basically, you know, get the grand Canyon from the water damage, right, Like it's it's at least little things that add up over time, and little things are actually pretty easy to do as long as you just keep doing them. And so, you know, I talk about a lot of people who've made choices to do these like little things and yet have become so productive doing that. So her profile an artist who was trying to be very gentle with herself, like, you know, instead of forcing herself to be in the studio eight hours a day, she'd be like, well, I'm just going to make a little bit of art. And when she kept making a little bit of art, like, it felt really good and the progress felt good, and she wanted to keep going. And she, you know, after coming out of a creative block, basically put on a show eighteen months later, which is really really awesome to have that many paintings up and ready and done. Like when she stopped beating herself up about this lack of productivity, she's really productive. Or a novelist who just basically writes in these little scenes and she just keeps going. And because she just keeps going and writes these scenes that she's planned well and you know, executes these births. She can write, you know, ten thousand words a week, and she can write a novel in eight weeks and she pretty much does uh, and it's just like you know, most of us get so like caught up and like, oh, you know, how much of my writing am I not writing? It's like, well, if you just keep writing your words, you will get a lot written. But you have to keep going. Or if you keep running your onele you have run a lot of miles, and sometimes setting little tiny goals is right for that phase. But it's better BTN, right, the bt BTND goals. And so I've been doing that with my life. You know, I have that BTN goal of a mile a day and a mile I can do. I couldn't do ten miles, but I can do one mile, and sometimes I do a lot more. But that's good for those days where it's really tough because I only have to do a mile. I write, I would say fiction a day and every work day. Oh yeah, that's a good one. My BTN right now is some kind of exercise and read a bit while I'm pumping. That's it better than nothing. Nothing. So you're getting through books, like you said, you got through like three books this month, three books the last month or four whatever it was. Yea. You know there's a lot of people be like way back Becau zero time to read whatsoever. And here you are. You know, you've got this busy job, you have three young kids, and you are reading because it's just a little bit here and there, and it adds up. I also want you to mention, because this is a podcast with tons of people with little kids, that a lot of your book does center around how to make the most of those years, which can be you know, they can they can pass by in an instant because you do kind of have the temptations sometimes to kind of just wish them away, but you specifically go into some things that kind of help make the most of those years. Do you want to talk about some of that? I mean, you know, I just I don't want to sugarcoat a great chapter about how it really can be very bad? Can me tap? And you talk a lot about your youngest Yeah, yeah, he has not been an ethy kid, And I mean, you know, we sort of have this image of like the old person in the grocery store sort of patting you on the hat and being like, oh, enjoy every moment, Like you're not going to enjoy every Like there's not really all that much enjoyable about you know, changing a diaper blowout and a you know, crowded bathroom, public bathroom somewhere. There's nothing, you know, necessarily enjoyable about being like rudely awakened from sleep at four am by you know kid who's just up and there's no good reason for it, they are just up. Or you know, like siblings hitting each other, biting each other. These these are all things that are not enjoyable. And so the problem with like the old man patting on the head and saying, enjoy every moment, like you can't enjoy every moment. And the problem with that isn't you then feel like you're a bad person for noticing that there are bad moments. So it's it's not about that, it's about understanding that we can enjoy the enjoyable moments. That's about the savings. So we were going to actively enjoy the enjoyable moments and then trying not to let the negative moments become our entire narrative. And that requires some incredible discipline, and it also requires being kind of good at suffering. And I talk a little bit about this idea of how we can become good at suffering. I mean that if you're in a really tough patch, if you can tell yourself or at least guess that it's limited. So I know we've talked about you of like you know, these the pumping days, that it's a limited time, Like you are not still going to be pumping, I assume like two years from now, promise, So you know it's it's time limited. So we can pace ourselves through close to anything if you know it's time limited, right, And then also trying to find these moments that you can enjoy and sometimes there are things that actually you can only enjoy in these things that are not you know, necessarily in and of themselves great. And you know, again it's not trying to sugarcoat it, like, yes, my youngest Alex like woke up incredibly early for a very very long period of time. I would have preferred that he didn't do that. And there's nothing I can say about that. I mean, you know, but I could appreciate some good things that did happen, like being out for a walk on the board walk on vacation when he's woken me up at four point thirty in the morning and I get to see the sunrise over the Atlantic. Well, you know, it's nice, like to see the sunrise over the Atlantic, and you wouldn't know otherwise. Granted, I wish he would have let me sleep till seven am, but if I was going to be up, I could at least appreciate this pretty incredible sunrise over the Atlantic. You know that I can sort of, you know, there are lots of things like that. Just notice what you can that can be enjoyed while still pacing yourself through the stuff that necessarily can. And if there is something that you can change. I mean, so some suffering cannot be changed. I mean that is true. Some suffering absolutely cannot be changed. But if there is something that you can change, change it, like, don't be a martyr to the suffering. Do what you can to change the circumstances. And sometimes very little things can even move minutes from the enduring to the tolerating category. And if you can move from enduring to tolerating, like that's huge. I feel like that was the move for my five am to my NOMEPM pump. There you go and very tolerating. Yeah, because there's no point to you know, really not enjoying life at all. And so yeah, like you know, I talk about people who had you know, like cancer, for instance. There's not really all that redeeming about a cancer diagnaite people. Afterwards, we'll say things like, well, it was good that it happened to me because I became a different person. That was good. Yeah, but it still sucks, like, let's not you know, nothing that could be said about that, but you know there are ways to get through it. That people have adopted some very interesting mindsets about that I profile, and so I think that's you know, worth thinking about how we can become good at suffering in different ways and that can change the experience of time. And it is inspiring to read stories like that because you realize, Okay, if someone can chunk that up and get through it, then you know I can handle something less than that, because no, wow, well, okay. The last point about the book I wanted to talk about, and this is appropriate because I'm in this chapter as I am in a couple Actually, thank you, Laura, is the one about people, because you know, your main point driving home towards the end of the book is that like the best moments and the most worthwhile moments and the ones that really make up the meaningful parts of our lives are the ones spent with people, and instead of going very gushy, which is not your style, and I agree with that, it's more mine. That's okay, is you went into a lot of practical things, and I liked how you talked about networking, and particularly how it kind of sounds a little bit transactional but really doesn't have to be. Yeah, I really wish we could just come up with a different word, because this word gets such this negative connotation, like nobody likes that guy at the you know, reception after the conference who's like constantly looking over his shoulder to find somebody more important to talk to, like, And unfortunately, that's what a lot of people picture with networking, or that there's this like mean agenda to it, you know, And if you go into networking with an immediate agenda, like you're going about the entire wrong way. And it's so much better to sort of be like, I would like to meet interesting people in life. I would like to see them succeed. Hopefully they'll find me interesting too, and they would like to see me succeed as well. And it's really been actually kind of fun as I've been sending out sort of advanced copies of Off the Clock to various influencers because I feel like so many of these people are just my friends. It's not that they're you know, like you know, anything other than that. It's said I've met them over the years. I enjoy talking to them. I've enjoyed like writing about or talking about their projects. I've met them off and in person, and like, I'm so excited to show this book that I've written with them, and yeah, a lot of them are going to write about it, talk about it, do whatever. But it doesn't it doesn't have the sort of tre's actual nature to it that I think a lot of networking can come. You know, I've talked about it. Pastime said like, oh, I'm so bad at networking, and people have written back to me and be like, by the way, have you noticed that you've written like two articles a week for like ten years where you've been quoting three people like that you've talked to and you know, so those people then follow you and you follow them and it's like all these you know, this community and it's and so I hadn't really thought about it that way, but it's true. It's true. It's not me at a cocktail party because I'm that's not really me that well, but but it is still still networking. And yeah, so get to know people. I hope you can help them succeed where you can. And that's pretty much all you really need to do. And spend your time on people, friends, family, colleagues. And I'm a more introverted person than Sarah, so that's a little harder for me to do, but I mean I do try to make sort of I had my personal priorities for the upcoming week. I also try to make relationship priorities for the upcoming week and be like, maybe somebody I'm reaching out to that I haven't talked to in a while and I just want to see how life is going, or you know, doing something with somebody who's in my area, my local area that can always be something or could be something with family as well. That those can be relationship priorities too. But just knowing it's in there sort of makes life feel more more full because I actually found that this time diary study that people's perceptions of time rose in direct correlation to how many minutes they spent actively engaged with friends and family on their time diaries on that March Monday, which which is kind of cool. I mean, you know, most people don't really think of a March Monday as being like prime friend time, or most people aren't going to really do a big date night on a March Monday. So it wasn't that these were naturally times where there would be a lot of interaction with people, but the people who had the high turny perception scores had made that happen one way or the other. And they even refer to certain activities as more of a like praankfast with my kid instead of just so that they were referring to the other people around. They were actively aware of the people that they were interacting with in this time. And you're like doing chores with wife like that would be an entry. You know, like a lot of people do chores they don't think about like, oh my spouse and I were going to do our chores like as we're both doing them together. And maybe that kind of like brought more value to that mundane event and led them to feel like they were using their time. I think that's an important thing to keep in mind, that people are generally a good use of time and they make life more fun. And you know, we have this idea that that time management is somehow even like opposed to this idea. And when people tell me like, oh, I don't really like this whole idea of time management, it's usually because they're thinking of it as structuring everything in opposition to like really relaxed and enjoyable time spent with friends and family. Right, but you know you have to arrange your life so you can have that time. I don't think these two are in opposition at all. No, definitely not. Kind of like the whole well, it's the same paradox with you know, the oh I just want to be Lucy Goosey. No, you got to be planned to have that. Otherwise though, that you don't want to do and you'll have to deal with it. But if you've planned ahead and all that, then you may be able to enjoy your Lucy Goosey time. Or that's those planners talking. But I hope to convince you in the book you get a chance to read it. Well, I think people are really really going to enjoy this book. I do, so please let us know what you think. I'm sure Laura will be doing some themed blog posts about it. I hope she will. And really, if you've read any of her stuff before. This is honestly like my favorite book that she's written. And I'm not just saying that. So I encourage you all to check it out. I really appreciate that You're welcome, but no, I really liked it. I was like sending her live emails. I was like, I love the topic. That was really fun. I was excited, so I would check it out, all right. So we do have a Q and A and the love of the week today. Do you want this is a hard Maybe I can read it if you are the answer. We both don't have a great answer, but I think it's good to share that we all have these. Yeah. So she was listening to our episode with Catherine Reynolds Lewis which we talked about kid discipline and talking about teaching children the skills of self regulation, and we had briefly mentioned the idea of parent regulation maybe being a skill that people need to work on as well, and our listener wrote, not sure if it's something you would be interested in discussing, but it's a topic I work with a lot, both personally and professionally, and I always appreciate hearing how other parents stay grounded and act intentionally, especially when parenting, life and work can feel challenging. I would I would say that we are not necessarily the experts on this, Oh, definitely not, definitely not. In fact, I can probably tell you about just about as much of what doesn't work is what does. So maybe that's helpful, But Gina, I think I just think it's a great thing to bring up. I mean you, please, don't have any fantasies that either of us live in a smooth, quiet, conflict free zone, because it definitely isn't. Or like say, when over exactly, I feel like things are better when I do the things I need to feel human. Then I know my patience level is better and my ability to be patient with my children is better. So I do think that that sort of self care piece of sleeping and getting some exercise and taking breaks and even getting help is very helpful in allowing me to have more self regulation on a day to day basis. In fact, the corolaria that is, I'm always worse when I'm on call, And Josh will tell you that like he hates when I'm on call. If it was up to him, I would never be on call because that work stress kind of overflows and everything else, and I tend to be a lot more yelly and less patient, and I hate it. So I guess really just making sure that you have that time for yourself and that your life isn't so harried and it's going to flow to your parenting style. I do think I remember leanne A Soul in one of our prior episodes mentioned being creative as parents, and I do feel like that sometimes works, really finding that, you know, if the kids are acting out in some really annoying way, if there's any way to find humor in that, like maybe even reminded the kid be like, are you really tomorrow if I remind you that you like really wanted the yellow bowl instead the blue bowl? Like will you think that that makes sense? For example, you know, finding see if they can find the humor in their behavior, or gamify what we're doing, like okay, let's see if we can get our teeth brushed in thirty seconds, Like think of if there's a creative way that I can get through something rather than yelling. And then finally, yeah, there's yelling sometimes and I regret it sometimes. And one thing that I've done a little bit more of is coming back to apologize later, like I can go to the kid and say, you know, that really didn't go well. I wish it had gone better. I wish I hadn't yelled. Let's talk about how we could make this go better. And sometimes I solicit the kid themselves for ideas and they may kind of admit that, yeah, some of it was stubborness on their part as well. But I do think that kind of going back and rehashing it, yeah, is helpful. So those are mine, I would say with that of going back to have the conversation, like you're trying to encourage the kid to have some empathy in here too, Like can they understand why you were so upset? And it's not usually because you're a horrible person, Like that's probably not the reason you were so upset, it's because, you know, let's see what's going on in mommy's life, Like do you have any awareness of this? Well, no, your kid doesn't, because your kid is a self centered little, you know, three year old, Like why would you know? They don't? But you know, three ye old one? But I feel like an eleven year old can have a bit more of that empathy, right, and you need to encourage that in the eleven year old to say like, well, why do you think mommy is stressed right now? All right, let's talk about this now, why do you think that this particularly triggered it? And you know they can talk about it, like, well, what can we do in the future, Like I was upset that you remember as we were going to the bus that you needed X Y or Z. You know, how can we make in the future and you don't remember generous idea that you need X, Y and Z as if I have nothing else to do today other than you know, attend to X, Y and Z. Yeah, because they need to like you have your own life too, and encouraging children to understand that yes, obviously they are very important to you, but they are probably not the only thing going on in your life. Is a healthy living skill to have, definitely. So yeah, that's our take on things. We are not experts. We're all learning one step at a time. But I did like that it was brought out. I thought it was a good, good question to ask. Okay, so finally, our love of the week, in addition to off the clock, which clearly is the love of the week as well, but mine kind of boring but useful for summer Zappos dot Com. I don't think we've mentioned it. I'm sure this is not an ad by the way as usual, but it does have free returns, which not everywhere does, and they kind of encourage you sometimes to buy different sizes and but that's really okay with I've been not doing right, but now they actually want you. But it's actually like the structure of their business. And I've been kind of like, I've just bought a pair of shoes for Cameron and then they were too small and he said they were too tight and they really weren't, but whatever, and I'm just returning them and I'm going to get new ones. And they have pretty much all the like sort of general brands, and it's super convenient and I don't have time to go a shoe store and kind of never plan on going again. So yeah, well I love that you. You actually said a note about your your tip here, which I hadn't even thought of buying a few sizes if you know you're gonna want to keep having that option around, like the wall. Oh yeah, we have this pair of stride right sandals that war in like every size. So at one point I was just like I'm buying them in fives and sixes and sevens because I know I'm going to keep wanting them. And we're in a one climate zone. So for other people who live where there's multiple types of weather, I could see this being more challenging. Kid will wear the next summer. I mean, this is a problem of like trying to buy stuff ahead for you know, I've encountered this, like you know, buying size ten, you know, of summer stuff for then and then boots. Yeah, and then summer the next summer they're the twelve or something. So it doesn't work. Yeah, But if you're in a climate neutral, climate consistent zone like we are, it's great. Okay, that's awesome. All right, I'm gonna remember to do that because I also do not find that kids shoe shopping is ever really a priority for me. So no, it's awesome sometimes state the kid's shoes wind up in. So my love of the week is that my three year old is now potty trained. Yay, that's it is exciting because, like I have, there's literally been six months and the last eleven years that we have not been dealing with diapers, and now we're not really dealing with him. I mean, we put him in over night, but he pretty much doesn't need him. He's been waking up dry. Well, he wakes up screaming I have to pay, which I get, that's easy. He's so we have to go quickly get him and go get to the potty. But yeah, he's been waking up up dry. So I'm pretty sure we can get out of the night diapers pretty pretty soon as well. Which is an upside of doing this at three versus like you know, two and a half, is it's a very quick process once the kid, you know, decides to do it, because they're old enough to deal with it. Well, that is definitely a milestone. I think we had nine months of daytime diaper free and then for a while. Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of nice. It's uh, you know been it's a milestone. Yeah, soon your son will be driving. But we won't say word to the time. I know where the time went actually because I've in track. So there we go exact all right, Well, thank you so much for listening to you best of both worlds. This week. We've been talking off the clock, which you know, if you somehow missed the first part of this episode. My book is out for sale May twenty nine, when this episode airs. If you would pick up a copy, I'd most appreciate it. Thank you for being loyal podcast listeners, readers, all that good stuff. I so appreciate it. I'm so grateful for all the people who are willing to spend their precious time reading or listening to this stuff. I mean, it means the world to me. So thank you, Yes, thank you. Be back last week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.