What Your Horse's Nervous System Reveals About Trust and Liberty with Kaleigh Marie - Sponsored by Triple Crown Feeds

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Noelle: Kaylee Marie is one of those
trainers you've probably seen and

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thought, "Wait, how is that even
real?" Liberty performances with horses

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laying on their backs, galloping in
formation, completely relaxed while

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doing things you'd expect in a movie.

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The horses don't look forced.

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They're just with her, and it
makes you wonder what she's

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doing differently to create that
level of trust and partnership.

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Kaylee and I get into why horses
check out, ignore your leg, or feel

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different depending on the day, and
how that ties back to responsiveness,

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trust, and the nervous system.

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From training oxen and donkeys to
rebuilding everything she thought she

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knew, this episode gets into what's
really driving your horse's behavior.

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Kaleigh Marie: Kaylee, welcome
to the Dear Horse Girl Podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm so excited to be here.

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Noelle: Okay, so I, I'm gonna
premise by saying that I learned

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about you... I mean, we met at Road
to the Horse the first year I went.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, I believe we were at
one of Dan James' parties.

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Yes.

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That was wild.

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That was a wild time.

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No one warned me about that.

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Fire-breathing included.

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No one warned me.

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I was like, "This is like nothing..."
And I've seen a lot, and that was- Mm-hmm

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... that was a, that was the first- A

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Kaleigh Marie: memorable experience

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Noelle: It was.

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Yeah.

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You're burned in my memory.

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Quite literally.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh, my God.

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Okay.

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But actually, I wanna bring up
how Tick Maynard talked about you.

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Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

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Noelle: Which was, I was asking
him, and I was like, "Who do I

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want?" Like, I wanna learn about
liberty, and I really wanna learn.

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Um, and he knows how I feel
about, you know, like, my

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relationship with my horses.

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Mm-hmm.

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And he... And I'm, and I'm not, I
wouldn't... Ironically, like, given

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that we have an education platform-

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Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

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Noelle: I am someone, I feel
like I'm a really slow learner.

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Mm. I don't feel like I'm a particularly
fast learner, and I, um... So it

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was, I need, I wanted someone who was
gonna be, like, really... And I think

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this is gonna be cool, 'cause we're
gonna talk about nervous system work.

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Kaleigh Marie: Mm. It's okay.

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Noelle: I have a super sensitive
nervous system, and I- Yeah

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I think one of the things that Tick really
was thoughtful and about when he talked

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about you was just- Mm ... like, how
safe and, and welcoming and- Mm ... like,

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c- like, nervous system informed your
teaching is, which I didn't know that.

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'Cause if someone were- Really ... to
watch you run, whoa, think about it.

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If someone were to watch you
gallop in on three horses or

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two horses into a stand-up- Yeah

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like, full movie- movie
stunt rider style, right?

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Yeah.

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With, like, huge, you know, like, this
massive dress and the horses are like- Mm

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... you know, galloping around the arena.

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If you were like, "That person does
a ton of nervous system work," you'd

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be like- Maybe ... "Really?" I can
see the, the disconnect there, yeah.

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Well, it makes- Yeah

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sense when you think about it.

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Mm. But one of the things, Tick said that
not only are you just incredibly excited

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and enthusiastic and passionate- Mm
... about liberty, he also said that if there

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was a hor- He said... I said, "Who..."
Actually, the question I had for him was,

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"If I were to send my horses to someone,

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anyone, if I were to send them away,
so I have to trust that that person is

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gonna do right by my horses," he said,
"Oh, Kaeli Marie, without a doubt."

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Wow.

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Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

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Tick, thank you.

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Noelle: Yeah.

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Kaleigh Marie: My goodness.

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There will be- So why do
you think he said that?

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In 51.87.

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Well, my mind jumps immediately back
to the first time I met Tick in person.

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He and I connected through a
student of mine back when I

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was based in the Northeast.

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Mm-hmm.

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And she had met him at
one of his book signings.

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She had been a huge fan, and I had
heard of Tick, but I hadn't come

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across a lot of his work, and she had
promoted me to him- Mm ... because

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she's a, a wonderful person.

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Noelle: Yeah.

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Kaleigh Marie: And he had sent
her home with a napkin with

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his phone number and Braveheart
Beast with a heart underneath it.

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Oh, my.

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Which was so, so sweet, and had
told her, "Have her reach out to me.

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I'd, I'd love to talk to her." Yeah.

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So I, throughout my entire learning
experience with, with horses and just as

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a person, I love reaching out to people
randomly on the off chance that they might

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want to connect, and we can talk and I can
learn from them and, and maybe, possibly,

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they can learn something from me.

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And so I took this number and I reached
out to Tick, and we connected on the phone

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for, uh, a fairly brief conversation,
and he just mentioned, "If you're ever

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in the Ocala, Citra area, you should
come by my farm." And it was probably

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close to, I don't know, six or eight
months from that phone call where I

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found myself in the Florida, yeah, area.

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And I reached out to him and was
like, "Tick, I'm, I'm in the area.

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Can I come by and visit?" He's like,
"Yes, absolutely." And I... It was New

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Year's actually, so I went to their farm
for a New Year's party, and then spent,

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uh, it was about two days with them, with
Tick in particular, after this party.

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And when I arrived at the farm, 'cause
I went to the party, um, left, I was

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staying with somebody else at the time,
and a day or two later came back and

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rolled up to the farm in an Uber, stepped
out of the Uber with my suitcase, and

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Tick is in the round pen with this
huge, gorgeous black gelding, Galileo.

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Yeah.

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And I just walk up to the round pen
as you do, and I'm, I'm watching

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him work this horse from the ground.

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Uh, and he, you know, acknowledges
that I'm there, and then he

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waves me into the round pen.

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He's like, "Come on, try this horse."
I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Tick Mayner

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is letting me work one of his horses.

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This is amazing." And I go in and we
start on the halter and lead rope, and

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then he's like, "Take the halter off.

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Play at liberty." And he watches
me for five or 10 minutes

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and is like, "You look great.

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I'll be back." And he goes to get
another horse and for the rest of

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the day we just work horses together.

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Uh, and he's asking me questions about
how I would approach things, and it was

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one of those humbling moments where the,
the work that I had seen from him up until

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that point, because after our phone call I
was like, "I have to check this guy out."

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He really, he has a, a quality
to him, like such a genuine

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kindness- Mm-hmm ... that inspires
curiosity about what he does.

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Like, the, the work that he does
physically is, is fantastic, but

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watching it, like witnessing it,
there's something about it that just

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generates this desire to know more.

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And so I, I had seen more and more
before I, I went to his farm in

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Florida, and to have this experience
of this person that when he witnessed

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just who I was, genuinely stepping
into the round pen of like, "Okay, I

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have no idea what this horse knows.

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I'm just gonna work with this horse and
try to pretend that nobody's watching me

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," you know, to be as authentic as possible.

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To have somebody like him witness just my
genuine approach and feel, and immediately

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give me a massive vote of confidence, he
has in, in just that way of, of, in his

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action, the way that, that he speaks to
me, 'cause this isn't the first time I've

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heard feedback, um, from people having
received feedback from him that was

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very, very kind about the work that I do.

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I think receiving those votes of
confidence is just, is just huge.

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Uh, and since then we've been friends
and, you know the horse world, it's

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big and small at the same time.

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Totally.

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So we always connect in, in
the circles that we're in.

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Eventually we come across each other.

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So yeah, that's really,
that's really meaningful.

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Noelle: Mm. Really

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Kaleigh Marie: meaningful.

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Noelle: Isn't it nice to receive-
Yeah ... a compliment like that,

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or like a vote of confidence.

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Absolutely.

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Even more than a compliment.

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Kaleigh Marie: The- Compliment
is like one thing ... the vote of

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confidence is what, is what really
is affirming to me- Especially coming

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from somebody who knows what goes
into really connection-based work.

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Yeah.

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Nervous system informed work.

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Like, to, to have somebody that can see
the path that I'm on, I, I feel there are

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people that can see the path that you're
on even more so than you do sometimes.

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Oh, yeah.

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Sure.

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Like I, I know where she's headed,
and she's headed in a great direction.

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It's like a breath of
relief of like, phew, okay.

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There's, there's ... It's almost a
check mark on the path of like, okay-

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Yeah ... I've reached this point and,
and where I am now, where I'm headed, I

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know that I'm headed in a good direction.

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So that's just really meaningful.

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Noelle: Okay.

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So before we dive in, 'cause this
is a No Stupid Questions episode-

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Yeah ... and I'm so excited- I love it

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'cause I think our community has lots
of really cool questions for you.

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So cool.

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But I want you to share with
everyone, because when we

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started I said, "Okay, where did
Braveheart Beasts come from?" Yeah.

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You said, "Well, actually it came
from the fact that I was, like,

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working not just with horses."

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Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

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Noelle: Can you, like,
share that a little bit with

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Kaleigh Marie: everybody?

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Ab- absolutely, and this is a pretty
big piece of my identity I feel like

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as a, a horse trainer, is the fact
that I did not start training horses.

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I was born obsessed with horses, as
most of us were, uh, into a family that

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had nothing to do with them at all.

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Yeah.

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I was just the odd one out, and
since I was a very little girl was

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determined to be involved with them- Mm

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to whatever extent I could be.

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And growing up in Vermont in a tiny
little farm town, there's a local riding

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stable where I started riding when
I was, like, four or five years old.

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But my first opportunity to really
immerse myself in animal culture was

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a dairy farm about 10 minutes from
my, from my childhood home, and I

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started working there when I was 11
years old actually because of a barn

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cat, a little kitten that was sick.

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We had stopped there to
bring sweet corn home.

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This is like a, a Hallmark movie- I'm
gonna say ... if you've ever heard one.

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Uh, and there's this tiny little
cat that was so sick, and my mom was

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like, "You can't bring it home, but
you can ask the farmer if you can

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come back to take care of it." And
I was the most socially awkward kid,

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so, like, terrified of this 6'4" tall
gruff New England man, Farmer Neil.

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And I walked up to Farmer Neil, I
was like, "Hi, sir. I found this cat.

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Can I come back and try to save it?"
And he was like, "I, I guess so." And

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came back the next day and found this
kitten and cared for it, and the next

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day and the next day, and just kept
coming back until the cat was better.

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And- But you wanted to keep coming back.

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And I kept coming back.

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I swear for the first six months
they didn't even know my name.

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Like, I just kept to myself.

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And eventually become, became more and
more immersed in the actual farm life.

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Uh, like I said, it was a dairy
farm, so I helped care for all

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of the cows and the calves.

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There were pigs, chickens, crops.

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There was a big garden.

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And I was there before
school, after school.

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It became like my second home.

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Noelle: Wow.

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Kaleigh Marie: And this man
who, meeting him, is this,

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this r- gruff, weathered guy.

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He's the kindest, most generous person.

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Like, the life I have now, I could not
have, I'm getting emotional thinking

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about it, I could not have without
the generosity that he showed me.

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And it started with
the cows when I was 12.

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00:10:50,284 --> 00:10:52,354
I had been there for a year.

226
00:10:52,795 --> 00:10:53,725
He walked up to me.

227
00:10:53,784 --> 00:10:54,995
I remember this vividly.

228
00:10:54,995 --> 00:10:57,305
I have no idea why, but it's,
like, burned into my mind.

229
00:10:57,354 --> 00:11:02,004
I was carrying two five-gallon
pails of water as best I could as a

230
00:11:02,004 --> 00:11:05,495
12-year-old girl up this hill to go
water the chickens, and he walked up

231
00:11:05,495 --> 00:11:09,184
to me, and at that point, I was still
a little, a little nervous of him.

232
00:11:09,344 --> 00:11:11,725
I was like, "Hi, can I, like, what
do you need from me?" And he was

233
00:11:11,725 --> 00:11:15,405
like, "You know those two twin
calves that were just born?" There

234
00:11:15,405 --> 00:11:16,495
were a pair of twin bull calves.

235
00:11:16,495 --> 00:11:19,394
And I was like, "Yes." He's like,
"You ought to train those to be oxen."

236
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And I was like, "Oxen?" He was like,
"Yep, oxen," and went about his day.

237
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I had no idea what oxen were, and,
uh, upon going home and telling my

238
00:11:29,385 --> 00:11:34,605
parents, "Mom, Dad, I have oxen," they,
they also had no idea what oxen were.

239
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We looked it up online.

240
00:11:36,045 --> 00:11:40,595
There was one book in existence about
what they were, what their equipment

241
00:11:40,595 --> 00:11:44,534
was, how to train them, and I set
on this journey to training these

242
00:11:44,534 --> 00:11:49,085
two calves, I named them Simon and
Oliver, to be a working team of oxen.

243
00:11:49,134 --> 00:11:51,375
And, uh, I was quite successful.

244
00:11:51,375 --> 00:11:56,934
Like, I had no idea what I was doing in
the beginning, and just upon spending

245
00:11:56,934 --> 00:12:02,345
hours and hours of trial and error with
them and finding guidance in some local

246
00:12:02,345 --> 00:12:06,134
farmers as well who had worked oxen with
their grandfathers in the fields when

247
00:12:06,134 --> 00:12:10,375
they were growing up, like, just, just
traditional history in the town where I

248
00:12:10,375 --> 00:12:12,515
was, I became quite successful with them.

249
00:12:12,515 --> 00:12:17,305
There was 4H competitions, uh, in
my home state, and in New England,

250
00:12:17,305 --> 00:12:20,975
that's a thing where I'm from, is oxen
competitions of, like, fitting and

251
00:12:20,975 --> 00:12:24,205
showmanship, how clean they are, how
well you present them, how much you know.

252
00:12:24,614 --> 00:12:27,095
Um, cart classes, where you
hook them to a two-wheeled cart.

253
00:12:27,125 --> 00:12:29,085
It's, like, precision down to the inch.

254
00:12:29,085 --> 00:12:33,964
Like, wildly precise driving classes
to see how well you can control the

255
00:12:33,964 --> 00:12:38,134
team, and then strength classes of
hooking them to an actual physical

256
00:12:38,134 --> 00:12:39,665
load that they had to move around.

257
00:12:39,955 --> 00:12:40,104
Whoa.

258
00:12:40,104 --> 00:12:40,884
An obstacle course.

259
00:12:40,884 --> 00:12:42,384
Like, wild, wild.

260
00:12:42,384 --> 00:12:42,664
Yeah.

261
00:12:42,705 --> 00:12:42,845
This is

262
00:12:42,845 --> 00:12:43,224
Noelle: so

263
00:12:43,224 --> 00:12:44,655
Kaleigh Marie: not at all-
Yeah ... what I was expecting.

264
00:12:44,655 --> 00:12:48,944
Like a, a whole, it's a whole other
world, and, uh, these competitions

265
00:12:48,944 --> 00:12:51,425
would happen at county and state fairs.

266
00:12:51,494 --> 00:12:51,875
Noelle: Yeah.

267
00:12:52,315 --> 00:12:54,675
Kaleigh Marie: And so I got really
into the competitions, and I mean,

268
00:12:54,675 --> 00:12:58,604
through this whole time, I'm still
obsessed with horses, obsessed with my

269
00:12:58,604 --> 00:13:02,285
cows, but still obsessed with horses,
and could not have my own horse.

270
00:13:02,354 --> 00:13:04,845
Wasn't allowed to have a
horse at the dairy farm still.

271
00:13:04,974 --> 00:13:06,895
Family not really involved in horses.

272
00:13:07,255 --> 00:13:12,175
So because of this, this passion,
this persistent passion, and the work

273
00:13:12,205 --> 00:13:15,434
I was doing with the cows, I did the
only logical thing I could think of,

274
00:13:15,595 --> 00:13:17,285
which was to teach the cows to ride.

275
00:13:18,494 --> 00:13:18,624
Noelle: And

276
00:13:18,624 --> 00:13:20,495
Kaleigh Marie: so I would ride them Oh my

277
00:13:20,575 --> 00:13:21,015
Noelle: God

278
00:13:21,065 --> 00:13:23,615
... 
Kaleigh Marie: like when I say ride,
they would walk, trot, and canter.

279
00:13:23,615 --> 00:13:25,165
We'd go on trail rides together.

280
00:13:25,165 --> 00:13:26,814
We'd go swimming in the river together.

281
00:13:27,344 --> 00:13:30,835
Like anything a teenager would do with
her horse- You're- ... I did with these.

282
00:13:30,835 --> 00:13:31,125
Noelle: How?

283
00:13:31,125 --> 00:13:35,465
This is not like a, like, this is not
like, this is... You're not having me on

284
00:13:35,465 --> 00:13:35,645
Kaleigh Marie: here.

285
00:13:35,645 --> 00:13:36,934
No, I'll send you pictures.

286
00:13:37,514 --> 00:13:39,684
Like that- We have to include these
pictures ... they were my childhood

287
00:13:39,735 --> 00:13:45,815
best friends, and they're, so they
were twins, um, almost all black.

288
00:13:45,844 --> 00:13:49,795
They grew up to be over 2,500
pounds, over six feet tall.

289
00:13:50,155 --> 00:13:51,574
Had like these pearly white horns.

290
00:13:51,574 --> 00:13:56,155
They were menacing to anybody that didn't
know who they were or what they were, but

291
00:13:56,155 --> 00:14:00,274
to this day, the most docile, forgiving
animals that I've ever worked with.

292
00:14:00,365 --> 00:14:02,664
Thank goodness, because I
went on to teach them to ride

293
00:14:02,664 --> 00:14:04,545
bridleless, to roman ride bridles.

294
00:14:04,574 --> 00:14:06,164
I clicker trained them to do tricks.

295
00:14:06,574 --> 00:14:08,324
They're the first animals
I ever clicker trained.

296
00:14:08,324 --> 00:14:11,425
And when you drive oxen,
you don't have reins.

297
00:14:11,425 --> 00:14:13,964
You just have your body,
a stick, and your voice.

298
00:14:14,124 --> 00:14:16,975
So growing up, I didn't even
know liberty work was a thing.

299
00:14:17,015 --> 00:14:18,115
I just did it.

300
00:14:18,225 --> 00:14:22,574
It was just a natural progression
of training, and eventually with

301
00:14:22,625 --> 00:14:25,725
these steers, I just found it more
convenient to be able to lead them

302
00:14:25,725 --> 00:14:29,055
around without halters or a yoke, which
is the equipment that they work in.

303
00:14:29,055 --> 00:14:29,095
Yeah.

304
00:14:29,095 --> 00:14:31,905
So would just drive them as
a team completely at liberty.

305
00:14:32,464 --> 00:14:38,595
And this was the, the foundation of my
entire childhood, was spending time on

306
00:14:38,595 --> 00:14:41,244
this 600 acre farm with my two cows.

307
00:14:41,875 --> 00:14:45,464
Positive reinforcement, bridleless
riding, liberty work, like that was

308
00:14:45,464 --> 00:14:48,704
where it all began for me, and it
was never something that was elite.

309
00:14:48,784 --> 00:14:51,324
It was just the way that we
communicated with one another.

310
00:14:51,795 --> 00:14:55,875
It is what made life easy and
sensible, was to, to be able

311
00:14:55,875 --> 00:14:56,934
to communicate with them.

312
00:14:56,934 --> 00:15:01,204
And because they were so massive and I
was so little, they had to want to do

313
00:15:01,204 --> 00:15:05,475
what I wanted them to do, because there
was no making them do these things.

314
00:15:05,475 --> 00:15:08,975
Yeah, there's literally no making a 2,500
pound- There's no, no making them do it.

315
00:15:08,975 --> 00:15:13,354
So all of these county fairs that
we would go to to compete, often to

316
00:15:13,354 --> 00:15:16,765
the dismay of the administration,
I would show these other things.

317
00:15:16,765 --> 00:15:19,574
I would roman ride them, I'd ride
them around, I'd ride them bridleless,

318
00:15:20,074 --> 00:15:24,475
and it was- When you say to the,
people were upset about this?

319
00:15:24,475 --> 00:15:33,764
So it caused intense controversy in the
world of, of oxen because of, I, when

320
00:15:33,764 --> 00:15:38,585
it came down to it, jealous parents
of children I was competing against.

321
00:15:38,585 --> 00:15:43,435
Also just fair policy of, of
safety, of nobody rides cows.

322
00:15:43,435 --> 00:15:44,615
It's not safe to ride cows.

323
00:15:44,654 --> 00:15:47,975
I will tell you as somebody that
has ridden cows, mules, donkeys,

324
00:15:47,975 --> 00:15:51,534
camels, horses, cows are the safest
animal you can possibly ride,

325
00:15:51,594 --> 00:15:58,794
because they are so peaceful, and
I will say thoroughly thoughtful.

326
00:15:58,835 --> 00:16:00,064
Many people call them slow.

327
00:16:00,105 --> 00:16:04,874
They're just very thorough in how
they process and deliver information.

328
00:16:04,874 --> 00:16:09,420
So like where a horse will
spook, it takes- immense amounts

329
00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:11,150
of effort for a cow to spook.

330
00:16:11,860 --> 00:16:14,740
Hence why I could do all
of these insane things.

331
00:16:14,740 --> 00:16:18,129
Like, horse people hear this, they're
like, "That's crazy." Like, when I

332
00:16:18,129 --> 00:16:20,549
say we Roman rode Bridless, we walked

333
00:16:20,830 --> 00:16:24,279
Noelle: around the yard, and
they- So when you say Roman rode-

334
00:16:24,279 --> 00:16:24,539
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

335
00:16:24,539 --> 00:16:25,160
Noelle: what does that mean?

336
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,529
Kaleigh Marie: So Roman riding means
they're lined up next to each other,

337
00:16:27,529 --> 00:16:28,600
and I would- Yeah ... stand on them.

338
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:29,500
One- Like what you do

339
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:29,969
Noelle: with the horses.

340
00:16:29,969 --> 00:16:30,850
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah, exactly.

341
00:16:30,850 --> 00:16:30,939
Oh, okay.

342
00:16:30,939 --> 00:16:34,789
So, like, what I do with horses
now is just a lot faster than

343
00:16:34,959 --> 00:16:36,469
what I used to do back then.

344
00:16:36,469 --> 00:16:37,539
Noelle: Wow.

345
00:16:37,629 --> 00:16:40,980
Kaleigh Marie: Uh, so I, I say
it caused intense controversy.

346
00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:46,369
It's just nobody had ever seen this done
with cows before, and just like anything

347
00:16:46,369 --> 00:16:49,730
that's, that's new... Like, for me,
I just did it 'cause I thought it was

348
00:16:49,730 --> 00:16:54,189
fun and, and awesome, but it was new,
and new is, is scary, so people either

349
00:16:54,189 --> 00:16:56,259
were all for it or entirely- Like, the-

350
00:16:56,259 --> 00:16:57,709
... 
Noelle: against it ... isn't
that interesting?

351
00:16:57,709 --> 00:16:57,820
Mm-hmm.

352
00:16:57,820 --> 00:17:00,709
Often when we do something new or
something is impossible until it's

353
00:17:00,709 --> 00:17:03,680
possible- Yes ... then all of a
sudden every... Like, you either

354
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,209
get people who are, like, 10 out of
10 excited or 10 out of 10 furious-

355
00:17:07,209 --> 00:17:08,070
Mm-hmm ... about what you're up to.

356
00:17:08,239 --> 00:17:12,619
Kaleigh Marie: And where I am in my life
now, I know that that's a good sign.

357
00:17:12,670 --> 00:17:14,640
That was hard to understand as- As a kid

358
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,280
a kid, which makes me very, very
thankful for my parents, especially

359
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,289
my mom, who to this day is, like, my
biggest fan, and she was my fiercest

360
00:17:22,289 --> 00:17:25,549
protector back then because she,
she believed in me so strongly.

361
00:17:25,549 --> 00:17:29,149
Like, nobody, nobody could touch me,
and, and if they tried, she was the

362
00:17:29,149 --> 00:17:32,520
first one off the bat to, to stand
up for me and what I was doing.

363
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,819
And eventually this gave way to
my first teaching opportunities.

364
00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:40,710
As a 16-year-old kid, I was going across
the country with Simon and Oliver to

365
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:46,149
international agricultural organizations,
colleges, draft animal-powered field days.

366
00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:50,590
Anywhere where oxen were relevant,
I started to present on what I would

367
00:17:50,590 --> 00:17:55,109
describe now as relationship-based
training, which back then, as I said,

368
00:17:55,109 --> 00:17:56,439
it's just what, what made sense.

369
00:17:56,439 --> 00:18:00,200
It's just how I communicated with them
and how I motivated them to do the work

370
00:18:00,230 --> 00:18:04,770
that I wanted them to do, which compared
to traditional methods of training oxen

371
00:18:04,770 --> 00:18:08,390
was very new- Right ... and unconventional
because a lot of traditional methods

372
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:13,880
relied heavily on force, on making
these very massive but very peaceful

373
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,670
animals do tasks that they might not
understand or be comfortable with.

374
00:18:18,539 --> 00:18:23,409
So it was, it was a little bit of a, of a
revolution with this very young girl and

375
00:18:23,409 --> 00:18:29,700
these big cows in this world of training
oxen, uh, that opened the doorway to me

376
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,489
being able to access educational platforms
from a, a very young age and connect

377
00:18:33,489 --> 00:18:35,879
with people over connecting with animals.

378
00:18:35,909 --> 00:18:36,629
Noelle: Wow.

379
00:18:36,629 --> 00:18:39,750
Kaleigh Marie: So those are,
like, my, my deep, deep roots.

380
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:44,849
Now fast-forward a little bit because
how do I eventually get back into horses?

381
00:18:45,650 --> 00:18:47,419
Is the big question on the table here.

382
00:18:47,580 --> 00:18:52,990
I, as a very little girl, was obsessed
with the idea of having a big black horse.

383
00:18:52,990 --> 00:18:56,889
This is like the only justification I have
for the next decision that I made, which

384
00:18:56,889 --> 00:18:59,520
was to purchase a young Percheron filly.

385
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,450
That was my first horse ever, and
I think as a, a young woman, like

386
00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:09,509
people seeing what I've accomplished
with the horses I have now- Well, the

387
00:19:09,509 --> 00:19:11,989
6B ... there's the assumption that
I've been in horses my whole life,

388
00:19:11,989 --> 00:19:13,700
and I started riding when I was young.

389
00:19:13,770 --> 00:19:16,809
But when I was immersed in the cows,
I had nothing to do with horses.

390
00:19:16,809 --> 00:19:21,419
For about seven years I didn't
touch horses, and only got back into

391
00:19:21,419 --> 00:19:26,289
horses when I was, like 17, 18 years
old, which was about 10 years ago.

392
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:26,590
Yeah.

393
00:19:26,590 --> 00:19:30,660
Yeah, that was like my first
horse that I ever trained on my

394
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:32,269
own, was a young Percheron filly.

395
00:19:32,559 --> 00:19:33,629
Uh, she came with this name.

396
00:19:33,629 --> 00:19:34,719
Her name was Twinkle.

397
00:19:35,519 --> 00:19:37,350
She was, like almost 19 hands.

398
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:41,050
She was gigantic by the time she
was full-grown, and ended up getting

399
00:19:41,050 --> 00:19:44,109
her a teammate, and for a time had
a carriage driving business because

400
00:19:44,109 --> 00:19:47,280
with draft horses, that was just the
world I was thrown into, is, "Oh, if

401
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,260
you have a draft horse, you should
drive them." And she rode, too, but I

402
00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:53,460
became very interested in the driving.

403
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:59,229
Um, would do hay rides, sleigh rides,
weddings, and as I was figuring out this

404
00:19:59,229 --> 00:20:04,879
driving journey with this big team of, of
beautiful black draft horses, I stumbled

405
00:20:04,879 --> 00:20:11,500
across, uh, a very unique opportunity,
which has also helped to shape quite a

406
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:16,210
bit of kind of the, the diverse species
experience- Mm-hmm ... that I've had.

407
00:20:16,669 --> 00:20:20,750
Uh, as I mentioned, grew up in
Vermont, very agricultural-based state.

408
00:20:20,790 --> 00:20:25,580
So in the, the town or small city where
I was at the time, on the outskirts of

409
00:20:25,580 --> 00:20:30,659
the city, there was a compost company,
which is exactly what it sounds like.

410
00:20:30,659 --> 00:20:34,280
It's a dirt company, where people
bring food and it's turned over

411
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:38,830
and over and o- and over in these
gigantic windrows until it is compost.

412
00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:39,049
Yeah.

413
00:20:39,049 --> 00:20:42,350
And they ship this compost across
the country to people wanting

414
00:20:42,350 --> 00:20:45,720
high-quality soil for their operations.

415
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:45,809
Cool.

416
00:20:45,809 --> 00:20:49,960
And a cool eccentric, also very
eccentric, the man that owned this

417
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,010
company was obsessed with mammoth donkeys.

418
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:53,719
He was obsessed with what?

419
00:20:53,719 --> 00:20:54,950
Mammoth donkeys.

420
00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:56,230
What's a mammoth donkey?

421
00:20:56,230 --> 00:21:00,310
So donkeys don't have
breeds as much as horses do.

422
00:21:00,310 --> 00:21:02,320
They're classified much more by size.

423
00:21:02,769 --> 00:21:07,350
So you have, like mini donkey, uh,
which I think is 36 inches and under.

424
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,870
Standard donkey is up to 54
inches, and mammoth donkeys are

425
00:21:11,989 --> 00:21:14,639
over- 36.91 penalty ... 14 hands.

426
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:15,400
14 hands and up.

427
00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:15,840
Okay.

428
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,570
So maybe it's 54, 56 inches.

429
00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:22,460
So he was, he was enamored
with massive donkeys.

430
00:21:22,460 --> 00:21:26,420
That was his, his thing, and this very
unique opportunity, he was looking

431
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:31,175
for somebody To train these donkeys,
and there was one mule, a very old

432
00:21:31,205 --> 00:21:37,134
Amish mule, uh, to pull a wagon into
the city of Montpelier, Vermont to

433
00:21:37,134 --> 00:21:41,615
deliver his organic eggs to a local
co-op once a week, simply for the sake

434
00:21:41,615 --> 00:21:45,494
of keeping animal power alive and, and
thriving as, like, a representation

435
00:21:45,494 --> 00:21:47,305
of this is how we used to do things.

436
00:21:47,684 --> 00:21:50,965
Um, and as a kid, this is how he
used to do things, and for me,

437
00:21:50,965 --> 00:21:54,035
I had never worked with donkeys
before, anything with long ears.

438
00:21:54,084 --> 00:21:56,074
I was just starting to
figure out the horses.

439
00:21:56,115 --> 00:22:00,915
I was like, "Sign me up. I will ... If you
give me a chance to figure these animals

440
00:22:00,915 --> 00:22:06,285
out, I will get this done for you." I, I
was much more confident than I should've

441
00:22:06,285 --> 00:22:09,325
been at the time, and I absolutely did it.

442
00:22:09,755 --> 00:22:14,904
I, just through time and experimenting
and figuring out, once again, what

443
00:22:14,935 --> 00:22:19,035
motivated them, we quite successfully
created this program where once a week

444
00:22:19,075 --> 00:22:24,244
we'd harness a team of donkeys and hook up
to a wagon and drive them into the city.

445
00:22:24,685 --> 00:22:28,854
And you talk about functional training
with animals who are not easily motivated.

446
00:22:29,035 --> 00:22:33,934
They had to be traffic safe, like- Yeah
... stoplight safe, with cars and bikes and

447
00:22:33,934 --> 00:22:36,635
horns and trucks and, and everything.

448
00:22:36,745 --> 00:22:37,264
And,

449
00:22:38,004 --> 00:22:42,105
Noelle: uh- But this makes- Yeah ... okay,
so I ... Okay, so- Are, are the pieces

450
00:22:42,105 --> 00:22:42,985
starting- No, it makes- ... to, to

451
00:22:42,985 --> 00:22:43,614
Kaleigh Marie: come together?

452
00:22:43,614 --> 00:22:45,275
... 
Noelle: perfect sense now.

453
00:22:45,305 --> 00:22:45,364
Yeah.

454
00:22:45,394 --> 00:22:48,205
That piece- Mm ... of your puzzle
makes- Mm ... perfect sense.

455
00:22:48,235 --> 00:22:48,605
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

456
00:22:48,644 --> 00:22:52,394
Noelle: Because if anyone, and like,
again, a lot of people in high performance

457
00:22:52,394 --> 00:22:56,114
or in the sports side of things will
not know a lot about mules or donkeys.

458
00:22:56,114 --> 00:22:57,644
Mm. I know a little bit.

459
00:22:57,675 --> 00:22:57,855
Yeah.

460
00:22:57,855 --> 00:22:58,455
A little bit.

461
00:22:58,574 --> 00:22:58,714
Yeah.

462
00:22:58,714 --> 00:23:02,644
And I'm fascinated about mules,
but the reason why is because

463
00:23:02,644 --> 00:23:04,724
when I got my Appaloosa mare-

464
00:23:04,754 --> 00:23:05,165
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

465
00:23:05,195 --> 00:23:09,945
... 
Noelle: a lot of vets told me, "If you
wanna learn about how to really understand

466
00:23:09,945 --> 00:23:13,114
your mare, you should probably do more
reading about mules or donkeys- Mm

467
00:23:13,114 --> 00:23:14,855
than you should about
horses." Interesting.

468
00:23:14,855 --> 00:23:19,995
Because vets typically classify
Appaloosas as more, like, stubborn

469
00:23:20,055 --> 00:23:24,355
and- Mm ... non, non-motivated-
Yeah ... non-solution seeking, as I say.

470
00:23:24,385 --> 00:23:24,714
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

471
00:23:25,105 --> 00:23:26,514
Noelle: Like mules and donkeys.

472
00:23:26,684 --> 00:23:26,745
Yeah.

473
00:23:26,745 --> 00:23:31,264
So the more reading and the more talking
to people, I found out about the art-

474
00:23:31,315 --> 00:23:31,834
Kaleigh Marie: Mm

475
00:23:32,154 --> 00:23:34,495
... 
Noelle: of training and working
with mules- It is an art

476
00:23:34,614 --> 00:23:36,084
and the art of- That's
like hard to describe it.

477
00:23:36,215 --> 00:23:36,364
Yeah.

478
00:23:36,364 --> 00:23:39,814
No, but, like, this makes perfect sense
as to why you are the, what, how lo-

479
00:23:39,864 --> 00:23:43,665
how you were able to do, how you've been
able to do so much- Mm ... in 10 years.

480
00:23:43,695 --> 00:23:44,105
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

481
00:23:44,105 --> 00:23:48,165
Noelle: M- if you started, if
your foundation in equus ... like,

482
00:23:48,655 --> 00:23:50,284
is, is donkeys and mules-

483
00:23:50,284 --> 00:23:51,265
Kaleigh Marie: Gigantic horses and

484
00:23:51,265 --> 00:23:51,885
Noelle: gigantic

485
00:23:51,885 --> 00:23:52,055
Kaleigh Marie: donkeys

486
00:23:52,055 --> 00:23:52,295
that's like

487
00:23:52,295 --> 00:23:52,885
Noelle: starting-

488
00:23:52,885 --> 00:23:53,905
Kaleigh Marie: And gigantic cows.

489
00:23:54,165 --> 00:23:54,754
Noelle: Yeah.

490
00:23:54,784 --> 00:23:59,265
Kaleigh Marie: Like, all of the animals
I started with were not easily motivated

491
00:23:59,305 --> 00:24:01,195
or, or coerced into doing things.

492
00:24:01,224 --> 00:24:06,810
And w- my favorite part about this-
You know, you look back on, on how you

493
00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:10,499
get to be where you are, and there are
some things that you just can't explain

494
00:24:10,499 --> 00:24:12,809
beyond divine plan and intervention.

495
00:24:12,809 --> 00:24:13,130
Noelle: Yeah.

496
00:24:13,130 --> 00:24:17,639
Kaleigh Marie: The experience I had as a
young developing trainer with different

497
00:24:17,639 --> 00:24:21,309
species, the fact that that was right
out of the gate where I stepped into this

498
00:24:21,309 --> 00:24:26,500
world, I honestly believe is the reason
why I'm so predisposed to do what I do.

499
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:26,629
Yeah.

500
00:24:26,629 --> 00:24:32,670
Because I've had so many opportunities
to, to hunt down, beyond just horses,

501
00:24:32,670 --> 00:24:34,449
what the common threads of connection are.

502
00:24:34,910 --> 00:24:36,410
Like, what is communication?

503
00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:37,299
What builds connection?

504
00:24:37,299 --> 00:24:40,669
And not just between people and
horses, but people and species.

505
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,430
Like, what do we need to understand
individually about the species, but what

506
00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:47,509
is, like, the raw ingredient that I need?

507
00:24:47,509 --> 00:24:50,189
What are the, the raw pieces I
need to build connection with

508
00:24:50,229 --> 00:24:52,169
whoever is in front of me?

509
00:24:52,169 --> 00:24:55,709
Because it was such a necessary
and functional piece of what I did.

510
00:24:55,739 --> 00:24:58,459
Like, it wasn't just a pretty
piece that I discovered through

511
00:24:58,459 --> 00:24:59,500
liberty work with the horses.

512
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:03,160
Like, no, the, the liberty work is
the easiest way for people to find

513
00:25:03,479 --> 00:25:07,869
and experience the pieces, but it was
just a, a functional piece of working

514
00:25:08,130 --> 00:25:12,099
with animals who I needed to keep
safe and who I needed to keep me safe.

515
00:25:12,099 --> 00:25:15,449
Like, we needed a strong, functional
working relationship that was fulfilling

516
00:25:15,449 --> 00:25:19,529
for both of us because I was, to
a certain degree, at their mercy.

517
00:25:19,919 --> 00:25:25,159
So I, I needed to make it worth their
time and to understand fundamentally

518
00:25:25,159 --> 00:25:28,150
what they were in it for and how
I could deliver that to them.

519
00:25:28,150 --> 00:25:29,150
Yeah, like why should I?

520
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,589
That, and donkeys especially
ask that question all the time.

521
00:25:33,589 --> 00:25:33,900
All the time.

522
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,110
All the time.

523
00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:36,809
And at first it's so frustrating.

524
00:25:36,809 --> 00:25:42,089
Like, people call them stubborn, but
they're, they're very intelligent.

525
00:25:42,419 --> 00:25:42,839
Oh, yeah.

526
00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:43,830
And, and cut and dry.

527
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:47,540
Like, it's ... I came to realize
that is a legitimate question.

528
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,339
It's actually quite a vulnerable one of
like, "Why should I do this for you?"

529
00:25:51,659 --> 00:25:51,809
Noelle: Yeah.

530
00:25:51,989 --> 00:25:56,180
Kaleigh Marie: And I think when, when
we get thrown into the horse world,

531
00:25:56,180 --> 00:25:59,199
like, we take horses for granted.

532
00:25:59,669 --> 00:26:03,309
And working, especially with animals
that are not easily motivated, we

533
00:26:03,309 --> 00:26:05,620
take their trainability for granted.

534
00:26:05,659 --> 00:26:07,919
We take their desire to connect
with people for granted.

535
00:26:07,949 --> 00:26:13,379
Like, they are such a gift when it comes
to having the opportunity to connect with

536
00:26:13,379 --> 00:26:18,709
an animal who's so much bigger and so
much more sentient and able to feel and

537
00:26:18,739 --> 00:26:20,409
so much more athletic w- than we are.

538
00:26:20,409 --> 00:26:25,820
Like, they open up doors to worlds that
we could never access otherwise, and we're

539
00:26:25,820 --> 00:26:28,689
thrown into this world with the assumption
that, yes, I should just be able to

540
00:26:28,689 --> 00:26:30,390
sit on your back and, and ride you.

541
00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:33,459
And yes, I want to be able to do
those things, but I absolutely need

542
00:26:33,459 --> 00:26:37,170
to make sure that it's for the good
of my horse as well, because what

543
00:26:37,170 --> 00:26:40,749
an opportunity to be able to do that
with, with horses and any animal.

544
00:26:41,219 --> 00:26:41,730
Noelle: Yeah.

545
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:42,260
Yeah.

546
00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:44,570
This is so cool.

547
00:26:44,939 --> 00:26:51,299
And I, I really love that because I do
think that donkeys and mules are this

548
00:26:51,299 --> 00:26:57,430
amazing- Mm ... like, such an amazing
teacher because I do think that their

549
00:26:57,430 --> 00:27:02,420
level of stubbornness, like, often
outweighs their ... Like, you know, I

550
00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:07,074
think, um There's this, and you'll, you'll
probably be able to explain it better than

551
00:27:07,074 --> 00:27:09,605
me because you're a teacher in that way.

552
00:27:09,605 --> 00:27:13,825
Like, there's, you know, when you, you're
in, you're in an inter- let's say you're

553
00:27:13,825 --> 00:27:17,825
training a horse- Mm ... and you're
like, you're trying to find the solution,

554
00:27:17,825 --> 00:27:18,895
you're trying to find the solution.

555
00:27:18,895 --> 00:27:19,145
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

556
00:27:19,195 --> 00:27:21,905
Noelle: And you're obviously ex- as
a, the human, you're- Yeah ... very

557
00:27:21,905 --> 00:27:23,565
motivated to find the solution.

558
00:27:23,604 --> 00:27:23,895
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

559
00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:24,934
Noelle: You really want it.

560
00:27:24,934 --> 00:27:25,225
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

561
00:27:25,255 --> 00:27:27,874
Noelle: And do you ever f- have you ever
been able to find that moment where the

562
00:27:27,874 --> 00:27:34,104
horse is like, "Yeah, okay." Like, "I
can see you really want this." I mean,

563
00:27:34,104 --> 00:27:37,055
I'm anthropomorphizing here- Yeah ... a
little bit, but like you can feel that

564
00:27:37,055 --> 00:27:40,764
horse kind of go like, "Yeah, o- okay,
I'll give it to you." Like, and it's not

565
00:27:40,764 --> 00:27:46,955
to say that you, you found that, um, maybe
technically very well, but the horse was

566
00:27:46,955 --> 00:27:50,395
like, "I'm gonna put these, I'm gonna put
one plus one equals two here for you."

567
00:27:50,395 --> 00:27:58,345
Mm. Whereas I feel as though donkeys and
mules are just like, "I don't feel that

568
00:27:58,345 --> 00:28:01,795
particularly curious about the sol- the,
the solution or the equation." Yeah.

569
00:28:01,795 --> 00:28:04,025
Like y- talking about motivation-

570
00:28:04,185 --> 00:28:05,595
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah ... do
you find that to be true?

571
00:28:05,645 --> 00:28:09,275
Well, I, I think, I mean, before
we started this podcast, we had

572
00:28:09,275 --> 00:28:10,485
mentioned like the deep dives.

573
00:28:10,485 --> 00:28:10,544
Yeah.

574
00:28:10,544 --> 00:28:13,425
This is our first opportunity for a-
To do the deep dive ... a deeper dive.

575
00:28:13,425 --> 00:28:19,095
And I mentioned just a moment ago the idea
of like the raw ingredients of connection.

576
00:28:19,235 --> 00:28:19,364
Yeah.

577
00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:23,955
There's a concept I refer to quite
often, which is conversational quality.

578
00:28:23,995 --> 00:28:25,925
And like I'll use this
as a perfect example.

579
00:28:25,925 --> 00:28:30,095
This high quality conversation,
we're both genuinely interested- Mm

580
00:28:30,144 --> 00:28:32,815
and engaging a, a pretty even amount.

581
00:28:32,815 --> 00:28:34,135
Like, I, I'm in the hot seat here.

582
00:28:34,135 --> 00:28:36,665
Like, so- ... I'm, I'm talking quite a
bit, but there's- No, but like we're both

583
00:28:36,665 --> 00:28:37,735
Noelle: like- We're very-

584
00:28:37,735 --> 00:28:39,614
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah ... invested
in, in the conversation.

585
00:28:39,614 --> 00:28:43,294
And, and now the analogy I typically use,
it's two friends out for a cup of coffee.

586
00:28:43,294 --> 00:28:46,684
It could be a conversation like
this where we're very enamored with

587
00:28:46,684 --> 00:28:49,434
what we're talking about, and the
engagement is here and flowing.

588
00:28:49,855 --> 00:28:52,724
We could have both brought our
favorite book, and we're sitting quite

589
00:28:52,724 --> 00:28:57,154
quietly, but mutually we're aware
of one another, and with that comes

590
00:28:57,285 --> 00:29:00,574
a, a prioritizing of responsiveness.

591
00:29:00,724 --> 00:29:03,205
Mm. Like, out of everything that's
happening around me, I prioritize

592
00:29:03,205 --> 00:29:04,805
you, that I'm going to respond to.

593
00:29:04,805 --> 00:29:06,144
You are what I orient to-

594
00:29:06,415 --> 00:29:06,614
Noelle: Yeah

595
00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:08,014
Kaleigh Marie: and, and what I respond to.

596
00:29:08,014 --> 00:29:14,034
And what's beautiful about this is that
there's a, an equal amount of us in the

597
00:29:14,034 --> 00:29:15,754
thing that we're cultivating together.

598
00:29:15,784 --> 00:29:16,185
Yes.

599
00:29:16,185 --> 00:29:18,504
Like the, the creative process.

600
00:29:18,504 --> 00:29:21,144
It's not about the destination or,
or the product that we're creating.

601
00:29:21,144 --> 00:29:25,405
It's about the, the actual
physical experience- Yeah

602
00:29:25,614 --> 00:29:29,204
and the essence of every single step
that goes into creating the product.

603
00:29:29,284 --> 00:29:29,444
Noelle: Yeah.

604
00:29:30,055 --> 00:29:32,885
Kaleigh Marie: That is, I think,
what really leads to connection.

605
00:29:32,885 --> 00:29:35,825
Like people say, "I, I want
connection." Well, it's not in

606
00:29:35,825 --> 00:29:37,954
what you do, it's how you do it.

607
00:29:38,275 --> 00:29:42,025
So with horses, like that idea
that my horse will put together

608
00:29:42,025 --> 00:29:45,694
one plus one, I don't actually
believe that the horse will.

609
00:29:45,784 --> 00:29:50,284
I believe that the horse will give over
their physical body and allow us to

610
00:29:50,284 --> 00:29:55,594
make the body put the pieces together
for them, but at that point we lose the

611
00:29:55,594 --> 00:29:58,765
emotional being inside of the horse.

612
00:29:58,805 --> 00:30:03,155
I lose the opportunity to bring-
Yeah ... who my horse is out in the work.

613
00:30:03,619 --> 00:30:04,999
And now it's just me.

614
00:30:05,469 --> 00:30:12,170
The conversational quality has left the
building, and in the world of, of horses,

615
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:18,739
I think it's much more acceptable to see
that imbalance of more human than horse

616
00:30:18,739 --> 00:30:23,019
rather than more horse than human, 'cause
as soon as we get more horse than the

617
00:30:23,019 --> 00:30:25,839
human is capable of interacting with- Yeah

618
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,429
or directing, we label them as
dangerous, explosive, disrespectful,

619
00:30:30,429 --> 00:30:32,039
pushy, unmanageable, et cetera.

620
00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:35,649
We're really, we're just lacking
conversational quality and awareness.

621
00:30:35,649 --> 00:30:39,689
Now, you take a donkey into the
picture, you cannot make that

622
00:30:39,689 --> 00:30:41,680
donkey give you their body.

623
00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:45,529
That is the one thing donkeys won't
do, is their self-preservation is so

624
00:30:45,529 --> 00:30:50,849
incredibly strong, there's nothing you
can elicit from them that will cause

625
00:30:50,849 --> 00:30:53,219
them to forego their personal autonomy.

626
00:30:53,270 --> 00:30:55,160
That's just not on the table for them.

627
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:01,329
So what you do need to do is produce an
environment that leads them to make the

628
00:31:01,329 --> 00:31:04,180
decisions that you want them to make.

629
00:31:04,180 --> 00:31:08,040
Now, in the beginning, a lot of that
environment is external, but I found

630
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,760
through the experience of working
these donkeys in the city streets

631
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:17,479
of Montpelier is the more often I
could put us in situations where my

632
00:31:17,479 --> 00:31:23,220
call was the safe call, the more they
started to trust me as an individual.

633
00:31:23,220 --> 00:31:26,099
So when we did get into the sketchy
situations, where I tell you

634
00:31:26,099 --> 00:31:30,250
there were plenty, by the time we
got there, if I made a call that

635
00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:33,729
wouldn't initially be theirs, they
were much more apt to trust me-

636
00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:34,150
Noelle: Mm

637
00:31:34,150 --> 00:31:38,930
... 
Kaleigh Marie: because I had just
consistently produced outcomes

638
00:31:39,299 --> 00:31:40,669
that justified the trust.

639
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,650
Where I think we expect
horses to trust- Yes

640
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,659
immediately, where it's something that
has to be so earned and so delicately

641
00:31:48,659 --> 00:31:53,919
cultivated with horses because it is
so easy to lose the emotional sentient

642
00:31:53,919 --> 00:31:58,190
being inside of the horse and just
have the body, where I don't find

643
00:31:58,190 --> 00:32:00,659
other animals to be quite that way.

644
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,010
Noelle: Mm.

645
00:32:02,010 --> 00:32:02,370
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

646
00:32:02,989 --> 00:32:03,299
Noelle: Okay.

647
00:32:03,390 --> 00:32:05,500
The way you talk about
trust, cultivating trust.

648
00:32:05,589 --> 00:32:07,989
Mm. But it makes sense-
Mm ... because of the way you started.

649
00:32:08,370 --> 00:32:08,430
Yeah.

650
00:32:08,430 --> 00:32:11,950
Like, this is so p- okay,
this is so powerful.

651
00:32:12,290 --> 00:32:12,349
Yeah.

652
00:32:12,510 --> 00:32:17,299
But I want to... So before we, 'cause
now I really wanna pull, like I'm like,

653
00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:20,389
"Oh, do I want..." Rabbit hole questions.

654
00:32:20,389 --> 00:32:20,450
Yeah.

655
00:32:20,450 --> 00:32:21,079
Rabbit hole question.

656
00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:21,299
Okay.

657
00:32:21,329 --> 00:32:21,549
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

658
00:32:22,269 --> 00:32:25,510
Noelle: But how does nervous
system work, h- where and when did

659
00:32:25,510 --> 00:32:27,230
nervous system work come into this?

660
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:32,909
Kaleigh Marie: Mm. So I've had a variety
of experiences in the, the horse world, as

661
00:32:32,909 --> 00:32:39,370
we all do- Yeah ... as we kind of find our
way, and going from the mammoth donkeys,

662
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,820
I've, I've had some pretty significant
turns and, and twists in my journey.

663
00:32:44,019 --> 00:32:46,870
At that time, I was starting
to get back into riding.

664
00:32:47,099 --> 00:32:47,349
Noelle: Yeah.

665
00:32:47,409 --> 00:32:51,894
Kaleigh Marie: And taking riding
lessons, I had- Started just slowly,

666
00:32:51,894 --> 00:32:54,844
casually started a, a training
business, Braveheart Beasts.

667
00:32:54,844 --> 00:32:57,964
That's- Yeah ... where that,
that name came from because it

668
00:32:57,964 --> 00:32:59,614
wasn't, at that time, just horses.

669
00:32:59,614 --> 00:33:02,904
It was cows, horses, donkeys,
mules, whatever people were

670
00:33:02,904 --> 00:33:04,114
interested in having me work with.

671
00:33:04,114 --> 00:33:08,775
I was like, "Yeah, I guess I can do
that for you." And, uh, when that

672
00:33:09,224 --> 00:33:15,224
started, when that journey started
for me, that was when I've, I found

673
00:33:15,275 --> 00:33:19,855
Alchemist, who for anybody that
follows my work, he's like my main guy.

674
00:33:19,855 --> 00:33:25,035
He's been with me for eight,
almost nine years now, and he

675
00:33:25,035 --> 00:33:27,544
was my first client horse ever.

676
00:33:28,164 --> 00:33:31,724
Family friend approached me with
this young Friesian cross who

677
00:33:31,754 --> 00:33:34,724
wasn't broke to ride, and she
just wanted a, a trail horse.

678
00:33:34,785 --> 00:33:35,785
Just wanted a trail horse.

679
00:33:35,785 --> 00:33:36,235
Trail horse.

680
00:33:36,785 --> 00:33:37,094
Yes.

681
00:33:37,094 --> 00:33:39,105
We've heard that- The good
old- ... so many times.

682
00:33:39,184 --> 00:33:39,434
Yes.

683
00:33:39,434 --> 00:33:40,145
Just a trail horse.

684
00:33:40,515 --> 00:33:44,175
Uh, where in, in her defense, she
really just wanted a, a quiet horse

685
00:33:44,175 --> 00:33:47,575
to go out on the trails and had found
this beautiful young horse that she

686
00:33:47,575 --> 00:33:51,224
had fallen in love with, um, but
more for looks than personality,

687
00:33:51,224 --> 00:33:53,465
which we've all been there, for sure.

688
00:33:53,945 --> 00:33:58,374
And the, the sounds of this, by the
sounds of it, I was like within the,

689
00:33:58,405 --> 00:34:01,524
the realm of my knowledge, which
especially based around riding, was

690
00:34:01,524 --> 00:34:05,734
not very much at the time, it sounded
like something that was manageable.

691
00:34:05,874 --> 00:34:09,634
Nothing too technical, just a horse that
was safe enough to take out on trails.

692
00:34:09,634 --> 00:34:13,925
Well, I went to meet this horse
and was met th- with this young,

693
00:34:14,755 --> 00:34:19,995
uh... Just to describe his
presence, like huge in his presence.

694
00:34:19,995 --> 00:34:24,514
Like, his energy just dominated the
space that you were in, not because he

695
00:34:24,514 --> 00:34:29,514
was, he was particularly confident or
pushy, but because he was chronically

696
00:34:29,554 --> 00:34:35,865
anxious with an immense amount of, of
presence, of personality, and absolutely

697
00:34:35,865 --> 00:34:38,884
no tools whatsoever to manage himself.

698
00:34:39,384 --> 00:34:44,185
Uh, no rapport with people, no awareness
that people had personal space or any

699
00:34:44,185 --> 00:34:48,774
kind of value to him and the input and
safety that they could provide for him.

700
00:34:49,225 --> 00:34:52,624
And I knew, like compared
to what I know now, nothing.

701
00:34:52,814 --> 00:34:56,615
But I was like, "You know what? I
wanna try this. I, I want to, to

702
00:34:56,615 --> 00:35:01,504
work with him." And at the time
he would bolt unpredictably, rear

703
00:35:01,504 --> 00:35:05,435
strike, like he was just unaware
of his body and his surroundings,

704
00:35:05,435 --> 00:35:08,504
and not secure all of the time.

705
00:35:08,674 --> 00:35:09,004
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

706
00:35:09,575 --> 00:35:12,884
Kaleigh Marie: And what went from
a season of training him for his

707
00:35:12,884 --> 00:35:16,584
owner very quickly turned into his
owner saying, "I'm realizing this

708
00:35:16,584 --> 00:35:17,804
is not the right horse for me.

709
00:35:18,024 --> 00:35:19,015
I adore him.

710
00:35:19,054 --> 00:35:21,364
I don't want to sell him just
for the sake of selling him.

711
00:35:21,364 --> 00:35:24,804
Do you want to, to take him?"
And it's crazy to think back to

712
00:35:24,804 --> 00:35:27,084
this because I almost said no.

713
00:35:27,664 --> 00:35:32,185
I almost said no because he was so much at
the time, and I was so- Yeah ... I, I was

714
00:35:32,185 --> 00:35:34,724
not confident in my ability to help him.

715
00:35:35,274 --> 00:35:36,914
Uh, but I, I said, "You know what?

716
00:35:37,105 --> 00:35:38,224
I'm gonna continue.

717
00:35:38,435 --> 00:35:39,745
Like, I'm, I'm up for the challenge.

718
00:35:39,745 --> 00:35:43,215
I'll, I'll see what happens."
And, uh, he came into my life.

719
00:35:43,705 --> 00:35:46,634
Not too long after that, Elgin came
into my life, his full brother.

720
00:35:47,105 --> 00:35:47,674
Mm-hmm.

721
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,049
At that point, I was really- Also, I'm

722
00:35:50,049 --> 00:35:50,769
Noelle: just gonna say, I

723
00:35:50,769 --> 00:35:51,119
Kaleigh Marie: love-

724
00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:54,439
Noelle: Yeah ... all the Friesians, and
this is a lot of Friesian energy, no?

725
00:35:54,839 --> 00:35:56,989
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah, so two,
they're- Or- They're Baroque Pintos.

726
00:35:56,989 --> 00:35:57,180
Okay.

727
00:35:57,180 --> 00:35:59,010
So half Friesian and half Paint.

728
00:35:59,010 --> 00:35:59,320
Cool.

729
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,640
Yeah, which was just like- I love
it ... for horses to just find me.

730
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:02,280
Just- I was like, "This-

731
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,999
finding ... this is pretty cool.

732
00:36:04,030 --> 00:36:09,069
I can, I can roll with this." And, uh,
I did roll with it by taking Alchemist

733
00:36:09,210 --> 00:36:12,829
to, uh, a school for classical dressage.

734
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:13,309
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

735
00:36:13,309 --> 00:36:17,719
Kaleigh Marie: The Temple Lipizzans, which
is no longer operational, but it was a,

736
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,179
a school of 30 Lipizzan stallions, three
head trainers, three working students,

737
00:36:22,390 --> 00:36:26,829
and each of us was responsible for 10
stallions with the trainer that we were

738
00:36:26,829 --> 00:36:30,230
working with, which was an experience
I could talk about all on its own.

739
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,120
Uh, but going from, just to, to paint
the picture of where I went from the

740
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,230
donkeys to, okay, now I'm training
horses, now I'm studying horses.

741
00:36:38,429 --> 00:36:41,399
Eventually, I was out in
Illinois, of all places.

742
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,489
Mm. Landed back in the Northeast,
outfitted with more knowledge than I

743
00:36:45,489 --> 00:36:50,870
had, uh, and really sat down with myself
more than anybody and, and was just like,

744
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:55,240
"Okay, I want to really start my business,
and I wanna do it in, in a good way."

745
00:36:55,380 --> 00:36:55,660
Noelle: Yeah.

746
00:36:55,690 --> 00:36:58,149
Kaleigh Marie: Um, and to
really devote myself to training

747
00:36:58,499 --> 00:37:00,480
animals for other people.

748
00:37:00,929 --> 00:37:06,870
And, and that is where my business
really began, was taking in, training,

749
00:37:07,249 --> 00:37:10,230
still of donkeys, mules, horses,
not so much cows at that time.

750
00:37:10,260 --> 00:37:11,149
I say taking in.

751
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:12,279
I traveled around.

752
00:37:12,310 --> 00:37:15,260
I had a toolbox in the bed of my
truck with whips and halters and

753
00:37:15,260 --> 00:37:17,459
treat pouches and I would go...

754
00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:21,510
I lived in Massachusetts, wherever
my clients were, and some of my

755
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:26,560
biggest clients became rescues
in the Massachusetts area.

756
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,029
There were two rescues in particular
that I was the head trainer at.

757
00:37:31,370 --> 00:37:36,170
Over several years, I, I became really
immersed in rehabilitating, physically and

758
00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:41,319
emotionally, the animals that came into
the rescues, and because of that work,

759
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,209
I developed the reputation of, like, if
there's nobody else to call, call Kaeli.

760
00:37:46,209 --> 00:37:50,200
If there's a behavioral case that's
really bizarre and a horse that

761
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,579
might be on death's door about to
be euthanized because of something

762
00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:58,929
behavioral, can we send it to
Kaeli to, to see if she can fix it?

763
00:37:58,929 --> 00:38:03,569
So- Yeah ... I got to experience a
wide range of pretty odd behavioral

764
00:38:03,569 --> 00:38:07,560
cases, from severe and unpredictable
aggression to horses that were

765
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,879
afraid of wide open spaces.

766
00:38:08,879 --> 00:38:12,670
Like, just weird behaviors,
behavior that really made you

767
00:38:12,670 --> 00:38:16,879
think about and, and puzzle on
where does the behavior come from?

768
00:38:17,789 --> 00:38:22,450
Like, unless a horse is
neurologically unsound, all

769
00:38:22,450 --> 00:38:24,069
behavior comes from the same place.

770
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:31,120
So I felt a need to understand where
behavior was born from, really.

771
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:31,200
Yeah.

772
00:38:31,620 --> 00:38:37,379
And a perfect timing to this chapter
in my life was the start of Ward

773
00:38:37,409 --> 00:38:39,120
Schiller's Journey On podcast.

774
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,785
Mm. And the first two episodes- talk
ever so briefly about the nervous system,

775
00:38:45,084 --> 00:38:46,965
almost to the point where it's mean.

776
00:38:46,994 --> 00:38:51,424
It's a tease of- Like, he just
mentions parasympathetic, sympathetic-

777
00:38:51,424 --> 00:38:53,705
Yeah ... and a couple of the things
that happen in those states, and I'm

778
00:38:53,705 --> 00:38:58,185
like, I was driving to a clinic when
I heard it, and on the way to this

779
00:38:58,185 --> 00:39:00,954
clinic, I'm questioning everything I've
been teaching because I'm like- Whoa

780
00:39:00,985 --> 00:39:05,065
"Oh, my gosh." Like, this is, I have
no idea what that is, but I knew right

781
00:39:05,065 --> 00:39:06,624
away this is where the answers are.

782
00:39:06,804 --> 00:39:07,034
Yeah.

783
00:39:07,224 --> 00:39:11,655
And at that time, there was one
horse in particular, Roman, who is a

784
00:39:11,655 --> 00:39:16,405
17-year-old Tennessee walking horse who
had come into this rescue unhandled.

785
00:39:16,574 --> 00:39:21,835
Hadn't had a lot of training, any training
really, and was severely aggressive.

786
00:39:22,335 --> 00:39:23,465
Unpredictably aggressive.

787
00:39:23,465 --> 00:39:26,004
Like, somebody could walk in and
put a halter on him, and two minutes

788
00:39:26,004 --> 00:39:28,895
later he'd grab them and throw
them across- Yeah ... the paddock.

789
00:39:28,945 --> 00:39:31,815
Like, just extremely
unpredictable and dangerous.

790
00:39:31,815 --> 00:39:36,474
Was about to be euthanized, and I talked
the owner of the rescue into letting

791
00:39:36,474 --> 00:39:39,074
me take him in and, and work with him.

792
00:39:39,484 --> 00:39:44,535
Uh- Uh-huh ... and thinking about the
experience I had with him, do you know

793
00:39:44,535 --> 00:39:46,035
the movie How to Train Your Dragon?

794
00:39:46,185 --> 00:39:46,374
Noelle: Oh,

795
00:39:46,374 --> 00:39:46,904
Kaleigh Marie: yeah.

796
00:39:47,164 --> 00:39:47,975
Uh, don't we all?

797
00:39:48,005 --> 00:39:48,194
Yeah.

798
00:39:48,194 --> 00:39:52,084
Well, like, talk about connection
with animals captured in ... Like,

799
00:39:52,124 --> 00:39:53,215
they captured it so- It's perfect.

800
00:39:53,215 --> 00:39:53,745
It is perfect.

801
00:39:53,745 --> 00:39:53,954
Literally.

802
00:39:53,954 --> 00:39:54,134
Literally.

803
00:39:54,134 --> 00:39:55,005
It is literally perfect.

804
00:39:55,554 --> 00:39:58,194
Um, so he was kind of my Toothless.

805
00:39:58,355 --> 00:39:58,575
Noelle: Oh.

806
00:39:58,575 --> 00:40:02,204
Kaleigh Marie: So the, the part of the
movie where Hiccup is learning all about

807
00:40:02,204 --> 00:40:07,694
the, the dragons and, and taking the
knowledge to just practical application-

808
00:40:07,725 --> 00:40:07,925
Noelle: Yeah

809
00:40:07,954 --> 00:40:12,054
... 
Kaleigh Marie: learning about the nervous
system was my learning about this really

810
00:40:12,054 --> 00:40:17,865
dragon that, that I had who over the
entire time that I worked with him, only

811
00:40:17,865 --> 00:40:22,444
he lunged at me two times in, like, the
first week that I was working with him.

812
00:40:22,444 --> 00:40:27,005
I only reached that point with him two
times because o- of missteps from me.

813
00:40:27,124 --> 00:40:30,884
I was never, never injured in
the work that I did with him.

814
00:40:30,925 --> 00:40:31,285
Noelle: Cool.

815
00:40:31,325 --> 00:40:33,514
Kaleigh Marie: And it, that was very cool.

816
00:40:33,554 --> 00:40:35,134
I was very thankful for that.

817
00:40:35,164 --> 00:40:40,215
But understanding everything
he showed me was communication.

818
00:40:41,134 --> 00:40:45,094
The, the, I, I guess you
could call it a system.

819
00:40:45,094 --> 00:40:48,035
The relationship I had with him
to this day is different than

820
00:40:48,124 --> 00:40:51,725
any horse I ever had because it
was so strongly based in consent.

821
00:40:51,874 --> 00:40:51,934
Noelle: Mm.

822
00:40:52,404 --> 00:40:55,415
Kaleigh Marie: And I think consent-based
work has a place in all training

823
00:40:55,415 --> 00:40:58,755
to different degrees depending on
the emotional resilience and the

824
00:40:58,755 --> 00:41:00,315
physical resilience of the horse-

825
00:41:00,344 --> 00:41:00,535
Noelle: Yeah

826
00:41:00,785 --> 00:41:02,175
... 
Kaleigh Marie: and the
strength of the relationship.

827
00:41:02,175 --> 00:41:05,704
Like, the, the better we know each
other, the more capable we are of doing

828
00:41:05,704 --> 00:41:09,204
the thing that's on the table, the
higher of an expectation I'm gonna have

829
00:41:09,204 --> 00:41:11,255
for the partner that I'm working with.

830
00:41:11,434 --> 00:41:11,594
Noelle: Yeah.

831
00:41:11,635 --> 00:41:13,145
Kaleigh Marie: But for him,
there was no expectation.

832
00:41:13,365 --> 00:41:14,815
It was like, "How do we keep you alive?"

833
00:41:15,354 --> 00:41:15,454
Noelle: Mm.

834
00:41:15,484 --> 00:41:19,494
Kaleigh Marie: And we had, we developed
the ability, he could tell me yes and no.

835
00:41:19,494 --> 00:41:22,025
He could tell me if he wanted a
halter, if he wanted to be touched,

836
00:41:22,025 --> 00:41:23,225
where he wanted to be brushed.

837
00:41:23,514 --> 00:41:28,124
We had, like, a, an introduction ritual
of if he wanted to work with me, how

838
00:41:28,124 --> 00:41:31,484
we would introduce each other to each
other on that specific day, and if

839
00:41:31,484 --> 00:41:32,684
it didn't happen, I didn't touch him.

840
00:41:32,945 --> 00:41:34,925
Like, it- Whoa ... it was so intentional.

841
00:41:35,354 --> 00:41:37,704
Uh, and- That's
amazing ... it was amazing.

842
00:41:37,734 --> 00:41:38,415
It was amazing.

843
00:41:38,415 --> 00:41:40,535
Noelle: So- Well, 'cause talk about
being like, yeah, like, it's like-

844
00:41:41,029 --> 00:41:43,800
It's kind of one of those opportunities
with a horse like that that's like

845
00:41:44,030 --> 00:41:45,790
could- was gonna be euthanized.

846
00:41:45,790 --> 00:41:46,119
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

847
00:41:46,290 --> 00:41:48,879
Noelle: Literally like, "Okay, let's
throw all the toys out- He's got nothing

848
00:41:48,879 --> 00:41:49,910
to lose ... and be like, let's just..."

849
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:50,099
Yeah.

850
00:41:50,099 --> 00:41:51,099
Yeah, you have nothing to lose.

851
00:41:51,099 --> 00:41:51,190
And I,

852
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:52,539
Kaleigh Marie: and I say
you have nothing to lose.

853
00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:56,410
In those situations, you have nothing
to lose except your own personal safety.

854
00:41:56,469 --> 00:41:57,250
I think- Right.

855
00:41:57,469 --> 00:42:02,340
Yeah ... those situations are
scary, but also very raw and

856
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:05,260
authentic in keeping you so aware.

857
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:05,560
Noelle: Yeah.

858
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,119
Kaleigh Marie: Like us as people, we don't
find ourselves in situations very often

859
00:42:09,119 --> 00:42:13,629
where we have to be aware of ourselves,
and our bodies, and our energy, and

860
00:42:13,629 --> 00:42:17,449
what we're communicating simply for
the sake of keeping ourselves alive,

861
00:42:17,449 --> 00:42:23,850
and not in the presence of a persistent
threat, but in the presence of something

862
00:42:23,850 --> 00:42:26,609
where if I misconduct myself- Yes

863
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,859
I will produce a threat.

864
00:42:28,140 --> 00:42:28,440
Noelle: Yes.

865
00:42:28,469 --> 00:42:32,030
Kaleigh Marie: As long as I'm aware and if
I'm connected, there's no threat present.

866
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,670
Noelle: Yeah.

867
00:42:32,699 --> 00:42:35,120
Kaleigh Marie: Like that's,
that's a high-stake situation.

868
00:42:35,150 --> 00:42:38,699
That teaches you a lot about how-
Talk about that ... the subtle details

869
00:42:39,069 --> 00:42:41,429
really impact what's happening.

870
00:42:41,429 --> 00:42:47,490
So that, that horse, Roman, he was the
introduction to the nervous system.

871
00:42:47,490 --> 00:42:50,199
And I mean, I say introduction,
like just the tip of the iceberg.

872
00:42:50,229 --> 00:42:51,229
Even still, I'm-

873
00:42:51,229 --> 00:42:51,560
Noelle: Yeah

874
00:42:51,649 --> 00:42:54,269
... 
Kaleigh Marie: learning and, and
changing the way- Well- ... that I, I

875
00:42:54,269 --> 00:42:55,850
approach it and explain it to people-

876
00:42:55,899 --> 00:42:57,079
Noelle: I will also say too- ... because
there's so much there ... like the

877
00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:00,939
industry as a whole- Mm ... and if Dr.
Steven Peters were here, he'd also say-

878
00:43:00,970 --> 00:43:01,290
Kaleigh Marie: Yes

879
00:43:01,290 --> 00:43:06,740
Noelle: like we also... Okay, there's
a, there's a, like a, a ceiling to the

880
00:43:06,740 --> 00:43:09,899
amount of research- Mm ... and money
that's grant... Like, that's funded.

881
00:43:09,899 --> 00:43:09,960
So

882
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:10,320
Kaleigh Marie: much.

883
00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:13,949
Noelle: So horses, horse eq-
Like, equine neuroscience is

884
00:43:13,949 --> 00:43:16,119
not a highly prioritized field.

885
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:16,500
Kaleigh Marie: No.

886
00:43:16,530 --> 00:43:19,439
Noelle: So there is... I mean, first
of all, there are a lot of questions.

887
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:21,949
Mm. And there's not a lot of answers.

888
00:43:21,949 --> 00:43:22,290
Yeah.

889
00:43:22,369 --> 00:43:25,710
And there's not a lot of funding
to find out those answers.

890
00:43:25,710 --> 00:43:26,009
Yeah.

891
00:43:26,049 --> 00:43:28,439
So when people go, "This should...
You know, we should know this," it's

892
00:43:28,439 --> 00:43:29,990
like, well, should is a loaded word.

893
00:43:29,990 --> 00:43:30,280
Like- Yeah.

894
00:43:30,649 --> 00:43:32,780
... we... Who's gonna pay for that research?

895
00:43:32,820 --> 00:43:36,250
Yeah, like the- And also, you
know, we know r- for when it comes

896
00:43:36,250 --> 00:43:37,250
to research- The reality of it

897
00:43:37,250 --> 00:43:42,549
how much money is required in order to-
Mm ... to find beyond a reasonable doubt-

898
00:43:42,799 --> 00:43:43,129
Kaleigh Marie: Right

899
00:43:43,129 --> 00:43:47,640
... 
Noelle: what is true- Yeah ... and not
true in accordance to the intelligence and

900
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,800
the- Mm ... data that we have right now.

901
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,630
Mm. 'Cause we've also disproven a lot.

902
00:43:51,690 --> 00:43:52,020
Mm-hmm.

903
00:43:52,020 --> 00:43:52,349
Right?

904
00:43:52,670 --> 00:43:55,270
So it's like I always find
research to be this incredibly

905
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:56,530
powerful- Fascinating thing

906
00:43:56,530 --> 00:43:59,429
and also very flimsy-
It's volatile- ... uh,

907
00:43:59,429 --> 00:44:01,899
Kaleigh Marie: modal- Yeah ... really,
because people will base their, their

908
00:44:01,899 --> 00:44:05,619
entire modalities around it, and sometimes
even base their identities on it.

909
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:06,009
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

910
00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:09,670
Kaleigh Marie: And you talk about a
forceful paradigm shift when something

911
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:12,839
like that gets turned on its head because
somebody's discovered this new piece.

912
00:44:12,839 --> 00:44:18,810
Like, you, you have to be so humble and
curious in the information- that you're,

913
00:44:19,050 --> 00:44:21,140
you're using, especially as a teacher-

914
00:44:21,289 --> 00:44:21,489
Noelle: Yeah

915
00:44:21,489 --> 00:44:23,929
... 
Kaleigh Marie: to be able to help
people on their own journeys.

916
00:44:23,929 --> 00:44:27,190
And honestly, a lot of the
nervous system information I've

917
00:44:27,250 --> 00:44:28,830
pursued has been human-based.

918
00:44:28,830 --> 00:44:29,200
Noelle: Mm.

919
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:29,950
Kaleigh Marie: Not horse-based.

920
00:44:29,950 --> 00:44:30,120
Yeah.

921
00:44:30,620 --> 00:44:33,410
And I've, I, I'm gonna
say I've simply taken it.

922
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,580
It has not been simple.

923
00:44:34,609 --> 00:44:38,119
I have taken it very intentionally-
Yeah ... to my horses, students'

924
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:41,820
horses as well- Yeah ... but especially
my horses, and, and have watched

925
00:44:42,260 --> 00:44:45,580
parallel function of like, okay, if it
functions this way in people, what's

926
00:44:45,660 --> 00:44:47,359
the parallel- Yeah ... for horses?

927
00:44:47,359 --> 00:44:51,779
And also, where do we, where do
we find an intersection- Yeah

928
00:44:51,889 --> 00:44:56,369
between how a horse's nervous system
and a person's nervous system actually

929
00:44:56,639 --> 00:45:01,459
start to, to communicate with one another
and almost interface with one another?

930
00:45:01,459 --> 00:45:05,680
Because at all times, we are interfacing
and, and communicating in ways that

931
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,130
we're completely unaware of, like,
in just tiny, tiny little, little

932
00:45:10,130 --> 00:45:12,119
signs and shifts and, and feelings.

933
00:45:12,730 --> 00:45:13,009
Yeah.

934
00:45:13,220 --> 00:45:14,070
Noelle: Mm.

935
00:45:14,099 --> 00:45:15,049
Kaleigh Marie: It fascinates me.

936
00:45:15,049 --> 00:45:15,389
So cool.

937
00:45:15,389 --> 00:45:17,709
And no, and I love, I love this so much.

938
00:45:17,869 --> 00:45:17,930
So

939
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:18,149
Noelle: much.

940
00:45:18,149 --> 00:45:20,079
Okay, so let's maybe
pull our first question.

941
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:20,180
Okay.

942
00:45:20,180 --> 00:45:22,429
I feel like this is a good opportunity
to- I'm excited ... pull our f-

943
00:45:22,429 --> 00:45:23,619
Okay, you pull the first question.

944
00:45:28,060 --> 00:45:28,149
Kaleigh Marie: Okay.

945
00:45:28,149 --> 00:45:31,310
Ooh, this is a good one.

946
00:45:31,470 --> 00:45:35,790
How do you reset yourself on
days when you're not showing up

947
00:45:35,819 --> 00:45:37,660
as the trainer you want to be?

948
00:45:38,050 --> 00:45:38,559
Oh.

949
00:45:38,649 --> 00:45:39,120
Ooh.

950
00:45:39,790 --> 00:45:44,680
And there's... I think there's
different facets to that.

951
00:45:45,139 --> 00:45:50,850
For me, uh, the, the first one that comes
to mind is broader, which is the idea that

952
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,170
who we're showing up as, like, the trainer
I want to be, me as a person and me as

953
00:45:55,170 --> 00:45:56,729
a trainer are not two separate things.

954
00:45:57,250 --> 00:46:02,960
So who I am outside of my horses
is directly related to who I am

955
00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:04,449
when I go in to work with them.

956
00:46:04,449 --> 00:46:07,539
Like, the, the idea that when we get
to the barn or we get to the arena,

957
00:46:07,539 --> 00:46:10,839
we leave all of our, our stress and
baggage at the door, like, it does not.

958
00:46:10,990 --> 00:46:12,740
To me, it does not work that way.

959
00:46:12,740 --> 00:46:13,390
That's hard.

960
00:46:13,499 --> 00:46:16,730
Like, I, I think of it, I call it the
backpack of, like, when we're, when

961
00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:22,539
we have that with us, when we have
the, the stress and the conditioning

962
00:46:22,539 --> 00:46:26,039
to be acting on stress and not being
in the present moment, like, all of

963
00:46:26,039 --> 00:46:28,929
these things, we don't just magically
develop the ability to have that-

964
00:46:28,990 --> 00:46:29,300
Noelle: Yeah

965
00:46:29,339 --> 00:46:32,309
Kaleigh Marie: when we get to the barn
and the space where our horses are.

966
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:37,640
And whatever we are not aware of
or have influence over, it is the

967
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,180
backpack, and pretending like we can
drop the backpack at the gate, which

968
00:46:41,259 --> 00:46:44,740
we can't necessarily do, creates so
much incongruence for the horses.

969
00:46:44,740 --> 00:46:46,479
'Cause the horse is like,
"What are you wearing?"

970
00:46:46,479 --> 00:46:46,540
Yeah.

971
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,600
And you're like, "I don't,
I'm not wearing anything."

972
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,110
Noelle: Like, "What, what
happened two hours ago?"

973
00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:50,509
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

974
00:46:50,759 --> 00:46:53,119
And you're like, "I, I'm not wearing
anything." They're like, "No, you,

975
00:46:53,150 --> 00:46:55,490
you have a backpack on." I'm like,
"No, I don't have a backpack.

976
00:46:55,540 --> 00:47:00,500
I'm, I'm fine." And to just deny the fact
that everything we experience outside

977
00:47:00,500 --> 00:47:04,199
of the work we do with horses influences
strongly what's going on, I think that's

978
00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:05,619
the first thing we have to recognize.

979
00:47:05,619 --> 00:47:09,595
So for me- As a person, just things
that I've learned about myself that

980
00:47:09,595 --> 00:47:16,895
help immensely, intentional physical
movement, exercise, and good, clean foods.

981
00:47:16,895 --> 00:47:18,335
Like, I, I say good clean food.

982
00:47:18,475 --> 00:47:19,744
I love food.

983
00:47:19,864 --> 00:47:20,824
I'm, I'm a foodie.

984
00:47:20,824 --> 00:47:23,924
Like, eat to live, live to
eat, live to eat, for sure.

985
00:47:24,354 --> 00:47:28,315
But looking for things that I can
put into my body that quite literally

986
00:47:28,315 --> 00:47:30,225
the input into my body is the output.

987
00:47:30,225 --> 00:47:35,075
Mm. Whatever I put into myself is what I
get to put out to those around me, horses

988
00:47:35,135 --> 00:47:39,354
and people, and directly influences,
as we know, connection is reciprocal.

989
00:47:39,354 --> 00:47:41,084
What I put out is also what I get back.

990
00:47:41,224 --> 00:47:41,474
Noelle: Yeah.

991
00:47:41,514 --> 00:47:45,314
Kaleigh Marie: So if, if physically the
things I'm putting into myself can, can

992
00:47:45,384 --> 00:47:49,555
influence that in an incredibly strong
way, to tie it back into the nervous

993
00:47:49,555 --> 00:47:55,095
system, like gut-brain connection,
the connection of the, the vagus nerve

994
00:47:55,095 --> 00:47:58,125
throughout the body, like our brain
is talking to our gut all the time.

995
00:47:58,125 --> 00:47:59,334
Our gut is talking to our brain.

996
00:47:59,395 --> 00:48:02,134
It's not a 50/50 street,
it's an 80/20 street.

997
00:48:02,194 --> 00:48:05,965
80% of the information from our body
is going from our gut to our brain.

998
00:48:05,994 --> 00:48:06,224
Yeah.

999
00:48:06,404 --> 00:48:10,654
Like, don't you think what we put into
our bodies should be of importance to

1000
00:48:10,654 --> 00:48:15,614
us if quite literally it's defining our
physical, visceral experience as a person?

1001
00:48:15,754 --> 00:48:19,345
So I would say first and foremost,
take that seriously because-

1002
00:48:19,345 --> 00:48:20,864
Noelle: Like, control the things you can.

1003
00:48:21,254 --> 00:48:22,694
That's what that comes up, that what- Yeah

1004
00:48:22,694 --> 00:48:23,285
... 
Kaleigh Marie: that what that brings up.

1005
00:48:23,285 --> 00:48:24,224
A, a focus, exactly.

1006
00:48:24,224 --> 00:48:27,754
Focus on, on what is in the
realm of, of your control.

1007
00:48:27,754 --> 00:48:27,785
Mm-hmm.

1008
00:48:27,785 --> 00:48:30,224
And also, make tiny changes.

1009
00:48:30,224 --> 00:48:33,995
Like, if I look at the lifestyle I'm
leading now compared to where I was two

1010
00:48:33,995 --> 00:48:37,485
years ago, I've made immense improvements,
and if I look at the lifestyle I'd love

1011
00:48:37,485 --> 00:48:39,614
to have, there's still im- immense- Sure

1012
00:48:39,614 --> 00:48:40,485
improvements to go.

1013
00:48:40,485 --> 00:48:44,754
So practically, for anybody wanting
to explore that outside of just

1014
00:48:44,754 --> 00:48:46,944
horses, like 1% better every day.

1015
00:48:47,245 --> 00:48:47,514
Noelle: Mm.

1016
00:48:47,514 --> 00:48:49,525
Kaleigh Marie: You do everything
all at once, it's never gonna stick.

1017
00:48:49,684 --> 00:48:52,495
Speaking from experience,
like just a little bit better.

1018
00:48:52,875 --> 00:48:55,635
And give yourself grace
as you, as you learn that.

1019
00:48:55,665 --> 00:49:00,875
But taking that to the actual day with
the horses, when I am not where I would

1020
00:49:00,875 --> 00:49:06,764
like to be, if I'm noticing frustration,
if I'm starting to, to notice that I'm

1021
00:49:06,764 --> 00:49:11,404
not accomplishing the thing that I want
to be accomplishing, the first thing I

1022
00:49:11,404 --> 00:49:17,794
look at or, or I question myself on is,
am I acting from a place of expectation

1023
00:49:18,285 --> 00:49:20,404
or am I acting from a place of intention?

1024
00:49:20,835 --> 00:49:22,604
And the difference between
these two things is that

1025
00:49:22,645 --> 00:49:25,645
expectation is very ego-based.

1026
00:49:25,914 --> 00:49:30,664
I think to a degree it's necessary
to have goals and visions of what

1027
00:49:30,664 --> 00:49:32,024
it is that we'd like to accomplish.

1028
00:49:32,024 --> 00:49:35,945
In fact, vitally necessary to
have a context to connect over.

1029
00:49:35,945 --> 00:49:38,574
If I don't know what we're doing
or what we're talking about,

1030
00:49:38,574 --> 00:49:42,104
it's hard to develop connection,
like a mutual partnership- Yeah

1031
00:49:42,104 --> 00:49:43,464
to accomplish what's on the table.

1032
00:49:43,815 --> 00:49:50,145
But expectation goes beyond that, and
it starts to connect my ability to

1033
00:49:50,145 --> 00:49:54,675
feel successful with what I physically
witness- Mm ... outside of my body.

1034
00:49:54,815 --> 00:49:58,005
I need to see this thing
happen to be affirmed in myself

1035
00:49:58,164 --> 00:49:59,514
that I've been successful.

1036
00:49:59,595 --> 00:49:59,634
Mm-hmm.

1037
00:49:59,925 --> 00:50:05,579
And that puts- My horse at risk, quite
potentially, of being the thing that

1038
00:50:05,579 --> 00:50:09,969
I'm trying to coerce and make into this
thing that's threatening my success.

1039
00:50:10,099 --> 00:50:14,370
Mm. So it puts me almost against my
horse rather than intention, which

1040
00:50:14,370 --> 00:50:18,330
comes down still maybe to I'm trying
to accomplish this thing on this day.

1041
00:50:18,330 --> 00:50:22,969
I wanna go work on X, Y, and Z. It's
great to have a plan, but beyond that, I'm

1042
00:50:22,969 --> 00:50:26,119
going to prioritize a specific feeling.

1043
00:50:26,209 --> 00:50:28,689
I already mentioned it once, the
idea of the creative process.

1044
00:50:28,809 --> 00:50:28,859
Mm-hmm.

1045
00:50:28,959 --> 00:50:33,090
I love this idea that it isn't the
product that matters as much as

1046
00:50:33,090 --> 00:50:36,149
the physical experience of all of
the steps that lead to the product.

1047
00:50:36,149 --> 00:50:41,509
So if all of the steps I'm going through
lead to this product, but every step comes

1048
00:50:41,509 --> 00:50:45,470
from a place of force and expectation of
I have to make this happen to get here

1049
00:50:45,820 --> 00:50:49,899
versus am I willing to go slower, am I
willing to maybe humble myself and go a

1050
00:50:49,899 --> 00:50:55,470
different way if the horse isn't ready
for what I think we're ready for or is

1051
00:50:55,470 --> 00:50:57,320
showing me something that is unexpected.

1052
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,189
Maybe they're not showing up in the way
that I expected them to- Mm ... and if

1053
00:51:01,259 --> 00:51:06,649
I can't pivot as the one facilitating
the work and the relationship, then

1054
00:51:06,649 --> 00:51:08,299
I'm doing both of us a disservice.

1055
00:51:08,299 --> 00:51:13,939
So checking myself first, and if
I catch myself early enough in

1056
00:51:13,939 --> 00:51:17,359
the decline to say, "Okay, I'm
too attached to the expectation.

1057
00:51:17,670 --> 00:51:21,149
Can I shift what I'm doing to find the
feeling that I'm looking for?" And, and

1058
00:51:21,149 --> 00:51:22,619
that feeling should be quite specific.

1059
00:51:22,619 --> 00:51:25,869
Am I trying to have a day
that's playful and energetic?

1060
00:51:25,869 --> 00:51:27,719
Is it calm and quiet and peaceful?

1061
00:51:28,090 --> 00:51:29,749
Is it at any range of things?

1062
00:51:29,749 --> 00:51:30,649
Is it confident?

1063
00:51:31,179 --> 00:51:32,749
Am I gonna push us a little bit today?

1064
00:51:32,780 --> 00:51:35,200
Am I gonna try to step outside
of my comfort zone and look for

1065
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,920
things that are new and unfamiliar?

1066
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,960
Like, I, I quite consciously set that
before I go in to work with that horse.

1067
00:51:41,049 --> 00:51:43,420
If I can catch myself there, amazing.

1068
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:49,950
If I find that I reach a point emotionally
where things outside of my horses, things

1069
00:51:49,950 --> 00:51:54,060
with my horses, doesn't matter what it is,
if it's pushed me emotionally to a point

1070
00:51:54,060 --> 00:52:01,060
where I'm no longer in objective control
of my response, I will stop everything.

1071
00:52:02,090 --> 00:52:05,980
Tying it back into the idea what are the
raw ingredients I need for connection-

1072
00:52:06,049 --> 00:52:10,429
Yeah ... if I was to boil it down
to one, it would be responsiveness.

1073
00:52:10,819 --> 00:52:15,450
Our response to our experience is
what defines all of our relationships.

1074
00:52:15,780 --> 00:52:19,500
It is the most pivotal thing
to what creates the r- the

1075
00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:20,759
reality that we experience.

1076
00:52:20,759 --> 00:52:27,269
So if I am out of control of my response,
I am out of control of my input into the

1077
00:52:27,269 --> 00:52:29,069
relationship that I'm trying to- Yeah

1078
00:52:29,069 --> 00:52:29,399
to create.

1079
00:52:29,399 --> 00:52:33,720
And if we hold the relationship above
all else, there should be nothing more

1080
00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:39,239
important than stopping before I do
more damage, or potentially more damage,

1081
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:45,150
to this thing that, that I hold so So
dear to me until I reach a point just

1082
00:52:45,179 --> 00:52:49,490
in my body where I can make a plan and-
Mm ... and go forward with the plan.

1083
00:52:49,490 --> 00:52:52,360
And sometimes, I mean, that looks like
throwing my whips across the arena and

1084
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,959
sitting my butt down in the footing,
and, and the horse is being like,

1085
00:52:55,959 --> 00:52:58,399
"Lady, what's... We're in the middle
of something. Like, what, what's your

1086
00:52:58,399 --> 00:53:02,829
problem?" Sometimes they, they don't even
recognize that's where I was getting to.

1087
00:53:02,989 --> 00:53:03,249
Noelle: Mm.

1088
00:53:03,309 --> 00:53:08,300
Kaleigh Marie: Um, but to be willing
to stop and taking it back to the

1089
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:10,030
nervous system, like regulate.

1090
00:53:10,059 --> 00:53:15,180
And regulate doesn't necessarily mean come
back to a place of zen and calm, but to be

1091
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:21,660
with the feeling instead of so overtaken
by it that it's the one calling the shots.

1092
00:53:21,660 --> 00:53:26,149
Like a witness to the experience
instead of a victim of the experience.

1093
00:53:26,989 --> 00:53:27,160
Noelle: Yeah.

1094
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,449
It makes me think of, um, like,
c- what co-regulation looks like.

1095
00:53:32,449 --> 00:53:38,600
Mm. But also what co-regulation
looks like for horses.

1096
00:53:38,629 --> 00:53:39,030
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1097
00:53:39,030 --> 00:53:42,129
Noelle: So it makes me think of a lot
of scenarios that I've personally been

1098
00:53:42,129 --> 00:53:43,769
involved in, but I've also witnessed-

1099
00:53:43,769 --> 00:53:44,129
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1100
00:53:44,210 --> 00:53:48,580
... 
Noelle: in which the person is
having a tough day, a tough year-

1101
00:53:48,610 --> 00:53:48,989
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1102
00:53:49,019 --> 00:53:51,169
... 
Noelle: a tough moment in their life.

1103
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,059
Mm. And they go in with the expectation
that they're gonna accomplish A, B, and

1104
00:53:55,059 --> 00:54:02,010
C, and the horse is like, "I'm sorry, but
this backpack that you have on you- Yeah

1105
00:54:02,049 --> 00:54:05,299
I just, like, I'm not... I'm, I, I..."
They don't have a pr- I don't think

1106
00:54:05,299 --> 00:54:07,669
horses have a problem with the backpack.

1107
00:54:07,669 --> 00:54:09,419
They're just like, "Can we
acknowledge that the backpack

1108
00:54:09,419 --> 00:54:10,989
exists?" Ex- That's exactly the thing.

1109
00:54:10,989 --> 00:54:11,110
Right?

1110
00:54:11,260 --> 00:54:15,930
And so then what happens is the, there's,
like, a conversation or something, a word

1111
00:54:15,930 --> 00:54:17,530
happens, or the horse does something- Yeah

1112
00:54:17,530 --> 00:54:18,059
and it triggers.

1113
00:54:18,119 --> 00:54:20,059
Mm. And there's this
big emotional release.

1114
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:20,350
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1115
00:54:20,830 --> 00:54:26,040
Noelle: And what I wish for the horse
world to have a permission slip-

1116
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:31,199
Yeah ... for is in those moments-
Mm ... where you're like, "I just

1117
00:54:31,199 --> 00:54:33,019
really wanna have a cry." Yeah.

1118
00:54:33,110 --> 00:54:35,710
Like, I really, or I really just
wanna, like, have a temper tantrum.

1119
00:54:35,979 --> 00:54:39,559
For someone who has personally have a
full-blown adult temper tantrum- Yeah

1120
00:54:39,619 --> 00:54:40,769
not at my horse.

1121
00:54:40,909 --> 00:54:43,939
Mm. Like, at the ground, if you push
all that energy into the ground-

1122
00:54:43,939 --> 00:54:44,269
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1123
00:54:44,309 --> 00:54:45,309
... 
Noelle: you know what the horses do?

1124
00:54:45,309 --> 00:54:49,239
They come over and they're like, "Oh,
this is great." The, the release-

1125
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,450
You're d- you're down-regulating
yourself ... is amazing.

1126
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:52,639
I'm, I'm in witness to you.

1127
00:54:52,639 --> 00:54:53,980
They do a bunch of yawns.

1128
00:54:53,980 --> 00:54:56,900
Mm. They're like, they're j- they're
dropping in, and then you both...

1129
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:58,540
'Cause everyone knows that feeling.

1130
00:54:58,540 --> 00:55:01,710
After you've expressed all this emotion
that you had inside you- So much

1131
00:55:01,710 --> 00:55:04,859
better ... then you're like, "Oh, this
feels amazing." You do a big exhale.

1132
00:55:04,859 --> 00:55:05,159
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1133
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,510
Noelle: That, to me, what
co-regulation is, is it might be zen.

1134
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:11,870
I'm someone who there's nothing
going wrong in my life, so I'm

1135
00:55:11,870 --> 00:55:13,260
gonna sit here and, like, meditate.

1136
00:55:13,299 --> 00:55:13,670
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1137
00:55:13,700 --> 00:55:14,909
Noelle: That can be for some people.

1138
00:55:14,909 --> 00:55:17,210
Kaleigh Marie: But it is so
much more, I think it can be so

1139
00:55:17,210 --> 00:55:18,389
much more authentic than that.

1140
00:55:18,389 --> 00:55:18,450
Yeah.

1141
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,889
I, I think what you're emphasizing
there is also so important in the sense

1142
00:55:23,889 --> 00:55:29,180
of not just getting on with the work
of invalidating the feeling that comes

1143
00:55:29,180 --> 00:55:33,040
up of, like, sometimes the frustration
is there, and we have the tendency or

1144
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:37,120
even the capability to say, "No, I'm
not gonna be- Frustrated and then we're

1145
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,470
at odds with ourselves and now trying
to work with the horses, like it just

1146
00:55:41,789 --> 00:55:47,199
We think about co-regulation, this nervous
system that beyond just our, our conscious

1147
00:55:47,199 --> 00:55:50,940
level, like every nervous system is a-
aware of the nervous systems around it.

1148
00:55:50,940 --> 00:55:51,029
Yeah.

1149
00:55:51,029 --> 00:55:52,859
So it does not matter
what's going on up here.

1150
00:55:52,859 --> 00:55:57,330
It matters entirely what's going on
here and what the horse feels from us.

1151
00:55:57,330 --> 00:55:59,209
So to move through the feeling- Yeah

1152
00:55:59,209 --> 00:56:02,420
to say, like, "Here's this feeling.
I'm gonna get to the other side of

1153
00:56:02,420 --> 00:56:06,220
it," and whether that is deep breaths,
whether it's, you know, having a

1154
00:56:06,220 --> 00:56:07,910
full-grown adult temper tantrum.

1155
00:56:08,059 --> 00:56:09,790
Noelle: Adult temper
tantrums are the best.

1156
00:56:09,939 --> 00:56:10,610
Kaleigh Marie: Underrated.

1157
00:56:10,750 --> 00:56:15,300
Really underrated, but, but expressing it,
obviously not- Not at anybody ... not at,

1158
00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:16,890
not at anybody, not at the horse- Mm-hmm

1159
00:56:16,930 --> 00:56:20,489
but to, to let the emotion move.

1160
00:56:20,489 --> 00:56:23,489
Like, we look at the word
emotion, it's in the word.

1161
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:23,840
Yeah.

1162
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:24,450
Motion.

1163
00:56:24,660 --> 00:56:24,829
Yeah.

1164
00:56:24,910 --> 00:56:28,000
Like, they're not meant
to be stagnant things.

1165
00:56:28,390 --> 00:56:32,209
Like, motion and emotion are, are
one and the same, so to- Absolutely.

1166
00:56:32,209 --> 00:56:32,540
Yeah.

1167
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:33,279
Okay.

1168
00:56:33,770 --> 00:56:34,250
Noelle: That was like,

1169
00:56:34,250 --> 00:56:36,270
Kaleigh Marie: that was one question.

1170
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:37,169
Noelle: Oh

1171
00:56:37,380 --> 00:56:38,329
Kaleigh Marie: my God, one question.

1172
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:38,689
Noelle: Ooh.

1173
00:56:38,689 --> 00:56:38,809
All right.

1174
00:56:38,809 --> 00:56:39,740
But I knew you were- Yeah

1175
00:56:39,740 --> 00:56:40,700
you're a rabbit hole girl like me, so.

1176
00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:41,090
It's, I love it.

1177
00:56:41,090 --> 00:56:41,420
I love it.

1178
00:56:41,420 --> 00:56:43,249
Okay, my horse ignores my leg.

1179
00:56:43,649 --> 00:56:43,829
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1180
00:56:43,829 --> 00:56:45,969
Noelle: And I end up using
more and more pressure.

1181
00:56:45,969 --> 00:56:46,660
Oh my God, this is amazing.

1182
00:56:46,660 --> 00:56:47,590
Kaleigh Marie: This ties in so well.

1183
00:56:47,590 --> 00:56:51,399
Noelle: How would you handle that
without it turning into a fight?

1184
00:56:51,439 --> 00:56:56,329
Kaleigh Marie: Mm. Good question,
and this is gonna, I think this

1185
00:56:56,329 --> 00:57:01,030
is gonna tie back into the idea
of expectation versus intention.

1186
00:57:01,359 --> 00:57:04,520
I'd say right now the expectation
is that we're able to do things

1187
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,259
with this horse that require leg,
and we're able to accomplish the

1188
00:57:08,259 --> 00:57:10,119
exercise in a way that feels light-

1189
00:57:10,389 --> 00:57:10,639
Noelle: Mm-hmm

1190
00:57:10,639 --> 00:57:14,800
... 
Kaleigh Marie: and engaged, where
really the intention should be a

1191
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,619
feeling of responsiveness and lightness.

1192
00:57:16,660 --> 00:57:16,800
Yeah.

1193
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,450
And in order to find that, like,
if I have a horse who is heavy,

1194
00:57:20,450 --> 00:57:24,170
potentially, and inattentive, I
like to say exaggerate accordingly.

1195
00:57:24,609 --> 00:57:26,450
This comes back to conversational quality.

1196
00:57:26,490 --> 00:57:30,639
If I need to put in an excessive
amount of effort into the conversation

1197
00:57:30,969 --> 00:57:34,219
to elicit a response, I want to see
a response that matches my effort.

1198
00:57:34,420 --> 00:57:34,670
Noelle: Mm.

1199
00:57:34,670 --> 00:57:38,030
Kaleigh Marie: So if I am ... This
ties back into what we were

1200
00:57:38,139 --> 00:57:39,139
literally just talking about.

1201
00:57:39,139 --> 00:57:39,240
Yeah.

1202
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:43,889
If I am very aware of what I want my
leg aid to feel like, this is just a

1203
00:57:43,889 --> 00:57:49,839
principle rule for me, the more effort I
need to put in, the more response I need

1204
00:57:49,839 --> 00:57:56,389
to see if I want to keep a very lively
and engaged feeling in the conversation.

1205
00:57:56,839 --> 00:58:00,359
As soon as it starts to feel like
my, my horse is becoming heavier and

1206
00:58:00,359 --> 00:58:05,339
attentive, there's the opportunity
to exaggerate the response I'm

1207
00:58:05,339 --> 00:58:06,499
looking for and follow through.

1208
00:58:06,839 --> 00:58:12,689
I do feel that has to come with the
curiosity, though, of why is the body

1209
00:58:12,689 --> 00:58:15,620
not responsive, is gonna be- Yeah.

1210
00:58:15,900 --> 00:58:16,169
Yeah.

1211
00:58:16,249 --> 00:58:20,169
This is where it starts to dive a
little bit deeper in terms of- The

1212
00:58:20,169 --> 00:58:23,810
relationship, like we've come back to
this idea of response so many times.

1213
00:58:23,810 --> 00:58:24,180
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

1214
00:58:24,180 --> 00:58:25,720
Kaleigh Marie: The, this
raw ingredient of response.

1215
00:58:25,790 --> 00:58:28,570
I look at it kind of like a
ball that we play catch with.

1216
00:58:29,100 --> 00:58:31,949
We build relationships
through exchanging response.

1217
00:58:31,949 --> 00:58:34,699
Mm. So it's like happening right
now, it's like I have the ball right

1218
00:58:34,699 --> 00:58:36,709
now, then I'm gonna toss it to you-
Mm ... and then you toss it to me

1219
00:58:36,709 --> 00:58:39,189
and, and we build this, this thing.

1220
00:58:40,179 --> 00:58:44,519
We can separate this out into, into
two pieces of exchanging, which is

1221
00:58:44,519 --> 00:58:46,900
information in and information out.

1222
00:58:47,090 --> 00:58:49,990
We hear the word sensitivity
thrown around a lot.

1223
00:58:50,039 --> 00:58:52,490
Oh, a horse is sensitive
or they aren't sensitive.

1224
00:58:52,490 --> 00:58:57,499
Well, some of them aren't, but I
don't feel it's, it's identified in

1225
00:58:57,499 --> 00:59:00,819
a correct way because sensitivity
is simply information in.

1226
00:59:01,319 --> 00:59:01,550
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

1227
00:59:01,870 --> 00:59:04,330
Kaleigh Marie: And expression
is information out.

1228
00:59:04,389 --> 00:59:07,720
I find people mix up expression
with sensitivity quite often.

1229
00:59:07,749 --> 00:59:07,979
Noelle: Yep.

1230
00:59:08,150 --> 00:59:10,920
Kaleigh Marie: To say, "That horse
is quite sensitive." No, that

1231
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,609
horse might be sensitive, but
they're also quite expressive.

1232
00:59:13,659 --> 00:59:14,080
Noelle: Yes.

1233
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:15,789
Kaleigh Marie: There are also
horses who are very, very

1234
00:59:15,789 --> 00:59:17,039
sensitive who are not expressive.

1235
00:59:17,069 --> 00:59:17,530
Noelle: Yes.

1236
00:59:17,569 --> 00:59:19,729
Kaleigh Marie: Who take in a
lot of information, but don't

1237
00:59:20,170 --> 00:59:21,269
give a lot of information.

1238
00:59:21,269 --> 00:59:21,429
Give a lot,

1239
00:59:21,429 --> 00:59:22,210
Noelle: yep, that's very true.

1240
00:59:22,210 --> 00:59:26,279
Kaleigh Marie: So I need to be asking
myself before I, I even get into the

1241
00:59:26,279 --> 00:59:31,330
physical capability of the horse, what
personality type am I working with?

1242
00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:36,529
Do I have the rapport that I need to
actually apply that amount of pressure to

1243
00:59:36,529 --> 00:59:43,830
the horse and elicit a response in a way
that brings clarity to the conversation-

1244
00:59:43,830 --> 00:59:43,859
Mm-hmm

1245
00:59:43,859 --> 00:59:46,989
Kaleigh Marie: rather, rather than
bringing shock to my horse of like,

1246
00:59:47,050 --> 00:59:50,349
"Oh my gosh, I've never, I've never
experienced this amount of pressure from

1247
00:59:50,349 --> 00:59:56,090
this person." And, and this amount of
what is intended as clarity, but this

1248
00:59:56,090 --> 01:00:00,450
amount of accountability around the
aids, if, if that's not an experience

1249
01:00:00,450 --> 01:00:04,749
the horse has had with the rider, if
we make too big of a jump too soon-

1250
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:05,209
Noelle: Mm-hmm

1251
01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:08,550
Kaleigh Marie: that will shake
the confidence of the horse rather

1252
01:00:08,550 --> 01:00:10,489
than improve the responsiveness.

1253
01:00:10,489 --> 01:00:13,720
So I, I think that
absolutely ties into it.

1254
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:17,359
And then just the physical
capability and fitness of the

1255
01:00:17,359 --> 01:00:17,889
Noelle: horse in question.

1256
01:00:17,889 --> 01:00:18,970
Yeah, what are you asking, are you asking-

1257
01:00:18,970 --> 01:00:19,279
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1258
01:00:19,279 --> 01:00:20,800
... 
Noelle: something that is
fair- Exactly ... or that is

1259
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:21,880
physically capable of that horse.

1260
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:21,959
Kaleigh Marie: Mm-hmm.

1261
01:00:22,309 --> 01:00:25,999
Noelle: And I also wanna add as- Yeah
... an altern- like as an additional or like

1262
01:00:25,999 --> 01:00:29,570
an add-on or an alternative- Yeah ... to
that exercise you were talking about where

1263
01:00:29,820 --> 01:00:31,210
you're gonna be consistent in the leg aid.

1264
01:00:31,210 --> 01:00:34,990
Mm. You're gonna, um, you're gonna
apply, you're gonna start really s-

1265
01:00:35,139 --> 01:00:36,249
you're gonna start really subtle-

1266
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:36,490
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1267
01:00:36,490 --> 01:00:38,850
Noelle: and build and build
and build until you, until

1268
01:00:38,850 --> 01:00:40,490
you feel an ex- a response.

1269
01:00:40,490 --> 01:00:40,669
Yeah.

1270
01:00:40,669 --> 01:00:42,220
And then you're gonna release
immediately because- Yeah ... that's

1271
01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:42,889
what you want, right?

1272
01:00:43,089 --> 01:00:46,139
Mm. And we're trying to establish
that pattern of responsiveness.

1273
01:00:46,139 --> 01:00:49,449
If you wanna... I had to rehabilitate
the responsiveness- Yeah ... on

1274
01:00:49,479 --> 01:00:51,070
an Andalusian horse that I- Mm

1275
01:00:51,070 --> 01:00:54,490
had that came from a competitive dressage
background- Yeah ... who literally has,

1276
01:00:54,540 --> 01:00:56,680
um, like calcification on the side of his-

1277
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:57,359
Kaleigh Marie: Wow

1278
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:58,970
... 
Noelle: barrel because of spurs.

1279
01:00:58,999 --> 01:00:59,589
Kaleigh Marie: Wow.

1280
01:00:59,940 --> 01:01:04,990
Noelle: And the, one of the coolest,
um, and I'd never seen it anywhere else-

1281
01:01:04,990 --> 01:01:05,279
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1282
01:01:05,309 --> 01:01:06,240
... 
Noelle: was Mark Rashid.

1283
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:06,499
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1284
01:01:06,499 --> 01:01:09,020
Noelle: We were in a clinic, and
it was actually his Abydo clinic,

1285
01:01:09,020 --> 01:01:10,350
where he's combining martial arts-

1286
01:01:10,810 --> 01:01:11,200
Kaleigh Marie: Wow

1287
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:12,959
Noelle: with aikido and, and horsemanship.

1288
01:01:12,959 --> 01:01:13,820
That's fascinating.

1289
01:01:13,820 --> 01:01:16,139
It's one of, if any- Yeah ... I would
highly recommend it, and actually

1290
01:01:16,139 --> 01:01:18,259
I was gonna tell Brendan about it-
Yeah ... because he's done martial arts.

1291
01:01:18,259 --> 01:01:18,400
That's so

1292
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:18,780
Kaleigh Marie: cool.

1293
01:01:18,820 --> 01:01:22,770
Noelle: It's one of the most
brain exploding experiences-

1294
01:01:22,770 --> 01:01:27,280
Yeah ... because he really helps
you understand the impact that- Mm

1295
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:30,370
that energy has- Yeah ... and how
it, like, it's just in the way

1296
01:01:30,370 --> 01:01:32,929
that only martial arts can explain
that to you- Yeah ... in your body.

1297
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:33,259
Yeah.

1298
01:01:33,579 --> 01:01:37,280
But we had a really simple exercise,
which was I wanted to rehabilitate

1299
01:01:37,790 --> 01:01:41,550
the so-and-so dullness that this
horse had to- Yeah ... the leg aid.

1300
01:01:41,850 --> 01:01:42,390
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1301
01:01:42,859 --> 01:01:44,800
Noelle: And we had physical evidence-

1302
01:01:44,829 --> 01:01:45,680
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah, wow

1303
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:49,419
Noelle: of how and where
that dullness had come from.

1304
01:01:49,449 --> 01:01:49,730
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1305
01:01:50,070 --> 01:01:50,300
Noelle: Okay?

1306
01:01:50,609 --> 01:01:54,399
And so he wanted to, he did exa-
He, he gave me that invitation

1307
01:01:54,399 --> 01:01:56,960
the way- Mm ... that you've given
that invitation- Mm ... of how to

1308
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,190
rehabilitate sensitivity to the leg.

1309
01:01:59,230 --> 01:01:59,590
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1310
01:02:00,009 --> 01:02:02,280
Noelle: But what I loved is his
alternative, because not everyone

1311
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:03,769
is comfortable using a whip.

1312
01:02:03,930 --> 01:02:04,059
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1313
01:02:04,059 --> 01:02:06,590
Noelle: And not everyone is
comfortable with that particular aid.

1314
01:02:06,590 --> 01:02:06,699
Mm-hmm.

1315
01:02:06,699 --> 01:02:07,000
Right?

1316
01:02:07,250 --> 01:02:10,890
And I'm not there, I'm not gonna
tell anyone if it's good or bad.

1317
01:02:10,890 --> 01:02:10,960
Yeah.

1318
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,850
It's just a matter of whether, h- what
your relationship is with that aid.

1319
01:02:13,850 --> 01:02:14,050
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1320
01:02:14,129 --> 01:02:14,320
Noelle: Right?

1321
01:02:14,350 --> 01:02:14,930
Kaleigh Marie: Absolutely.

1322
01:02:15,220 --> 01:02:18,979
Noelle: So what he did was, it's all about
the energy- Mm ... in your body that's

1323
01:02:18,979 --> 01:02:20,650
a, that's ask- that's using that- Mm-hmm

1324
01:02:20,650 --> 01:02:22,790
like, that, that's asking that question.

1325
01:02:22,820 --> 01:02:26,180
He said, "Instead of tapping
it on the horse, tap your leg."

1326
01:02:26,210 --> 01:02:26,780
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1327
01:02:26,839 --> 01:02:27,640
Noelle: So you pu- I

1328
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:28,229
Kaleigh Marie: love that.

1329
01:02:28,229 --> 01:02:28,400
It's

1330
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:28,900
Noelle: the coolest.

1331
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:29,600
Kaleigh Marie: I love that-

1332
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:29,760
Noelle: Yeah

1333
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:30,369
... 
Kaleigh Marie: so much.

1334
01:02:30,369 --> 01:02:30,489
So

1335
01:02:30,489 --> 01:02:33,900
Noelle: it's about- Yeah ... and it was,
again, it's about the energetic charge.

1336
01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:34,199
Kaleigh Marie: Cool.

1337
01:02:34,199 --> 01:02:35,750
Noelle: So we're charging the leg.

1338
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:35,930
Yeah.

1339
01:02:35,930 --> 01:02:38,049
So if you apply your leg aid- Mm

1340
01:02:38,049 --> 01:02:40,970
and you don't get a response,
what happens if you tap your leg?

1341
01:02:40,970 --> 01:02:41,309
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1342
01:02:41,629 --> 01:02:43,589
Noelle: Because that will
send energy through your leg.

1343
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:44,119
Kaleigh Marie: Mm.

1344
01:02:44,570 --> 01:02:47,059
Noelle: And I just wanted to provide
that as an alternative- Absolutely ... to

1345
01:02:47,059 --> 01:02:47,390
everybody.

1346
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:50,159
Kaleigh Marie: And, and to build on
that as well, because I, I think what

1347
01:02:50,159 --> 01:02:54,780
you bring out here is becoming more and
more of a fas- uh, it's a fascination

1348
01:02:54,780 --> 01:02:59,530
and a focus of mine in the teaching that
I do, where so many people find me for

1349
01:02:59,530 --> 01:03:00,979
work they want to do with the horses.

1350
01:03:01,019 --> 01:03:04,110
It really starts to become
work with the people as well.

1351
01:03:04,140 --> 01:03:04,360
Noelle: Yeah.

1352
01:03:04,430 --> 01:03:06,119
Kaleigh Marie: Whether it's
in liberty, just teaching

1353
01:03:06,119 --> 01:03:09,059
physical movements to people-

1354
01:03:09,150 --> 01:03:09,360
Noelle: Yeah

1355
01:03:09,449 --> 01:03:11,580
... 
Kaleigh Marie: apart from the
horses, of how do we move, can we

1356
01:03:11,580 --> 01:03:13,400
bring people into their bodies-

1357
01:03:13,589 --> 01:03:13,909
Noelle: Mm

1358
01:03:13,909 --> 01:03:16,269
... 
Kaleigh Marie: to work
horses at liberty or riding.

1359
01:03:16,269 --> 01:03:21,239
Like, what level of pressure and
communication are people comfortable with?

1360
01:03:21,810 --> 01:03:27,829
That is such a deep question that I
don't really think anybody is asking of,

1361
01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:29,859
like, it's ... We're all very invested.

1362
01:03:29,859 --> 01:03:30,989
Is the horse okay with it?

1363
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,219
Am I comfortable with it?

1364
01:03:33,249 --> 01:03:40,840
And that idea does not mean I
have the opportunity to condemn

1365
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:42,129
things that I'm uncomfortable with.

1366
01:03:42,340 --> 01:03:42,620
Noelle: Yeah.

1367
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:43,340
Kaleigh Marie: Because-

1368
01:03:43,469 --> 01:03:43,639
Noelle: Yeah

1369
01:03:43,980 --> 01:03:46,310
... 
Kaleigh Marie: that can be a
temptation of if I'm uncomfortable

1370
01:03:46,310 --> 01:03:47,260
with it, it must be bad.

1371
01:03:47,260 --> 01:03:47,499
Then it's bad.

1372
01:03:47,820 --> 01:03:49,090
Stay curious about it.

1373
01:03:49,129 --> 01:03:49,310
Yeah.

1374
01:03:49,389 --> 01:03:49,650
Right?

1375
01:03:49,650 --> 01:03:54,004
There's something to learn from-
everything, but- Yeah ... to understand

1376
01:03:54,004 --> 01:03:59,564
that there are so many alternatives to
keep your nervous system in a state where

1377
01:03:59,564 --> 01:04:03,514
you can be engaged and responsive- Exactly
... to what's going on, 'cause as soon as you

1378
01:04:03,814 --> 01:04:09,064
become, I'm not gonna say uncomfortable
is a bad place to be, but so uncomfortable

1379
01:04:09,464 --> 01:04:13,194
that you're more focused on the discomfort
than what's actually happening in front of

1380
01:04:13,194 --> 01:04:15,894
you, it's a hard space to be an effective
communicator- Well, 'cause then you're not

1381
01:04:15,894 --> 01:04:16,085
Noelle: present

1382
01:04:16,284 --> 01:04:17,025
Kaleigh Marie: and to learn.

1383
01:04:17,025 --> 01:04:17,085
Yeah.

1384
01:04:17,114 --> 01:04:22,015
So beyond just tap your whip with the leg,
like for me, I'm an avid clicker trainer.

1385
01:04:22,194 --> 01:04:23,115
Mm. I am a clicker trainer.

1386
01:04:23,115 --> 01:04:23,144
Mm-hmm.

1387
01:04:23,194 --> 01:04:24,775
I love positive reinforcement.

1388
01:04:25,124 --> 01:04:29,065
I do feel in the horse world,
it is wildly misrepresented-

1389
01:04:29,144 --> 01:04:29,494
Noelle: Mm-hmm

1390
01:04:29,584 --> 01:04:31,424
... 
Kaleigh Marie: as a way
to say good job to horses.

1391
01:04:31,424 --> 01:04:31,854
I completely agree.

1392
01:04:31,854 --> 01:04:32,115
It is not.

1393
01:04:32,115 --> 01:04:33,804
It's a science experiment.

1394
01:04:33,834 --> 01:04:35,214
It's fascinating.

1395
01:04:35,214 --> 01:04:40,045
It gives me the ability off of a
noise to produce dopamine release

1396
01:04:40,115 --> 01:04:43,315
in the horse that I'm working
with on a specific moment in time.

1397
01:04:44,034 --> 01:04:48,135
I need to, if I arm myself with a tool
that is that powerful, where I'm changing

1398
01:04:48,435 --> 01:04:53,284
the physical, chemical makeup of a
living being, I have to be consistent

1399
01:04:53,735 --> 01:04:56,035
in where the changes are happening.

1400
01:04:56,105 --> 01:04:56,324
Noelle: Yeah.

1401
01:04:56,355 --> 01:04:58,584
Kaleigh Marie: If we're clicking
left and right because the horse, oh,

1402
01:04:58,624 --> 01:05:01,304
they're doing such a good job and I
want to give them a cookie, the horse

1403
01:05:01,304 --> 01:05:05,635
has become dysregulated and frustrated-
Yeah ... and often sometimes miserable

1404
01:05:05,635 --> 01:05:11,434
because they're unsure of how to replicate
the, the situation- Absolutely ... the

1405
01:05:11,434 --> 01:05:12,794
activity that produced the food.

1406
01:05:12,794 --> 01:05:16,474
So consistency is the most
important thing, and consistency

1407
01:05:16,525 --> 01:05:19,815
in their response to us.

1408
01:05:19,845 --> 01:05:22,985
If we want clicker training to serve
the connection, I'm not just clicking

1409
01:05:22,985 --> 01:05:26,794
for things that I want my horse to
actively look for, like dopamine says,

1410
01:05:26,794 --> 01:05:31,145
"That feels great. Let's do it again."
I want them to be actively looking for

1411
01:05:31,145 --> 01:05:32,974
things that happen in response to me.

1412
01:05:33,345 --> 01:05:37,675
I, like, supercharge their desire
to respond to me, rather than

1413
01:05:37,675 --> 01:05:39,985
just clicking and treating the
things that they find really fun,

1414
01:05:39,985 --> 01:05:41,645
which they think it is really fun.

1415
01:05:41,645 --> 01:05:43,584
So that, that consistency
is important as well.

1416
01:05:43,584 --> 01:05:47,415
But for something like this
where maybe, like I'm gonna put

1417
01:05:47,415 --> 01:05:50,374
myself in this situation, I have
a student with a heavy horse.

1418
01:05:50,504 --> 01:05:50,724
Noelle: Yeah.

1419
01:05:50,785 --> 01:05:54,455
Kaleigh Marie: A horse that's needing
to be rehabilitated to sensitivity

1420
01:05:54,455 --> 01:05:58,444
around the leg, and the student
is lacking confidence, right?

1421
01:05:58,444 --> 01:06:02,225
Maybe the idea of picking energy
up and, and pressure up at all-

1422
01:06:02,305 --> 01:06:02,624
Noelle: Mm-hmm

1423
01:06:02,654 --> 01:06:07,175
... 
Kaleigh Marie: is, is frightening,
hon- honestly, like scary, and to

1424
01:06:07,175 --> 01:06:09,755
that nervous system, threatening of
like, "I don't think I can do that."

1425
01:06:10,615 --> 01:06:15,425
I need to take the tools that I have
to arm that person and that horse with

1426
01:06:15,535 --> 01:06:18,104
their highest possible chance of success.

1427
01:06:18,164 --> 01:06:18,384
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

1428
01:06:18,535 --> 01:06:21,485
Kaleigh Marie: So even if we break that
down from the exercise of, okay, when I

1429
01:06:21,485 --> 01:06:23,395
put my leg on, I'm a confident person.

1430
01:06:23,985 --> 01:06:25,255
I have a rapport with this horse.

1431
01:06:25,255 --> 01:06:26,865
I'm gonna touch with the
whip and say, "Canter."

1432
01:06:27,134 --> 01:06:31,815
Maybe I say, "We're gonna not use the
whip at all." Maybe we put the leg

1433
01:06:31,815 --> 01:06:37,835
on, and for me, my general rule is
five times or less, five applications

1434
01:06:37,835 --> 01:06:43,669
or less of leg, whip, what have you,
before I become annoying and- Unclear-

1435
01:06:43,910 --> 01:06:45,139
Mm ... in what I want my horse to do.

1436
01:06:45,209 --> 01:06:48,879
So I would challenge that student in
five movements or less with the leg.

1437
01:06:48,919 --> 01:06:53,190
Maybe the leg gets bigger, but
as soon as we feel 2% more energy

1438
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:54,159
in the horse, we click and treat.

1439
01:06:54,270 --> 01:06:54,680
Yes.

1440
01:06:54,919 --> 01:06:55,119
Right?

1441
01:06:55,119 --> 01:06:58,709
So now I'm using intrinsic motivation
in the horse to say, okay, I'm,

1442
01:06:58,989 --> 01:07:04,870
I'm adding this additional external
motivator to say, "Hey horse who's not

1443
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:10,919
very motivated, can you bring more of
yourself to the conversation to produce

1444
01:07:10,919 --> 01:07:16,529
a feeling that this person needs to
have," ideally to progress them on the

1445
01:07:16,529 --> 01:07:21,729
journey that they would be able to use
pressure to communicate with the horse.

1446
01:07:21,729 --> 01:07:25,840
I, I emphasize that because
pressure is my direct line of

1447
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:27,389
communication to the nervous system.

1448
01:07:27,420 --> 01:07:27,450
Mm-hmm.

1449
01:07:27,450 --> 01:07:28,709
Clicker training, amazing.

1450
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:28,959
Mm-hmm.

1451
01:07:29,049 --> 01:07:31,459
Epic, really, in what
it can do for horses.

1452
01:07:31,459 --> 01:07:34,860
What I do with my horses, I couldn't
do without clicker training, really.

1453
01:07:35,220 --> 01:07:38,560
But I need to have a horse
who is emotionally resilient

1454
01:07:38,590 --> 01:07:39,930
and comfortable with pressure.

1455
01:07:40,209 --> 01:07:40,499
Noelle: Mm-hmm.

1456
01:07:40,740 --> 01:07:43,889
Kaleigh Marie: So I'll never use my
clicker training as a, a permanent

1457
01:07:43,889 --> 01:07:47,479
diversion from an issue with
pressure in a horse or a person.

1458
01:07:47,479 --> 01:07:47,770
Noelle: Yeah.

1459
01:07:47,810 --> 01:07:48,670
Kaleigh Marie: That's
something I won't do.

1460
01:07:48,670 --> 01:07:52,429
Temporary solution to produce a
feeling that will build confidence

1461
01:07:52,429 --> 01:07:53,850
to get them there, absolutely.

1462
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:53,909
Mm-hmm.

1463
01:07:54,109 --> 01:07:57,090
So there's so many different ways we
could, we could do things like that.

1464
01:07:57,090 --> 01:08:00,219
Noelle: Well, and I think- Yeah ... as
we, also anything I mention before

1465
01:08:00,219 --> 01:08:02,909
we move on to a next question-
Yeah ... is too, I think horses that

1466
01:08:02,909 --> 01:08:05,060
are dull to pressure in general-

1467
01:08:05,060 --> 01:08:05,270
Kaleigh Marie: Mm

1468
01:08:05,759 --> 01:08:07,060
... 
Noelle: I think have
been made to be that way.

1469
01:08:07,060 --> 01:08:07,090
Mm-hmm.

1470
01:08:07,090 --> 01:08:08,130
I think we can agree to that.

1471
01:08:08,130 --> 01:08:11,969
Like, I do think, I mean, there's
a spectrum of- Yeah ... the level,

1472
01:08:11,969 --> 01:08:13,219
the responsiveness to pressure.

1473
01:08:13,219 --> 01:08:13,549
Mm-hmm.

1474
01:08:13,549 --> 01:08:22,369
But I think having, I think there's
enough evidence out there to, to

1475
01:08:22,369 --> 01:08:26,700
really say that horses that are dull-
Yeah ... to pressure are actually

1476
01:08:26,700 --> 01:08:28,189
often the ones that are most sensitive.

1477
01:08:28,189 --> 01:08:30,990
Mm. And they built the strongest
protection- Absolutely ... against

1478
01:08:30,990 --> 01:08:33,219
it because it was too
much, too quick, too soon.

1479
01:08:33,250 --> 01:08:34,060
Kaleigh Marie: Absolutely.

1480
01:08:34,460 --> 01:08:34,710
I,

1481
01:08:34,770 --> 01:08:35,520
Noelle: I would agree with that as well.

1482
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:35,609
Right?

1483
01:08:35,609 --> 01:08:35,909
I'm noticing

1484
01:08:35,909 --> 01:08:36,030
Kaleigh Marie: that a lot.

1485
01:08:36,030 --> 01:08:36,140
Yeah.

1486
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:36,479
Yeah.

1487
01:08:36,509 --> 01:08:36,729
Yeah.

1488
01:08:39,860 --> 01:08:40,759
Ooh, it's my turn.

1489
01:08:40,759 --> 01:08:44,030
I'm gonna go for this
little guy right here.

1490
01:08:46,050 --> 01:08:48,810
We have, what's something you've
changed your mind about in your

1491
01:08:48,810 --> 01:08:51,260
training over the last few years?

1492
01:08:51,319 --> 01:08:51,690
Ooh.

1493
01:08:52,850 --> 01:08:53,859
Oh, gosh.

1494
01:08:53,919 --> 01:08:55,529
Where do we, where do we take this one?

1495
01:08:55,650 --> 01:09:00,519
I'm, I'm gonna roll with the first
thing that pops into my head, uh, which

1496
01:09:00,519 --> 01:09:01,959
would actually be clicker training.

1497
01:09:01,959 --> 01:09:02,050
Cool.

1498
01:09:02,789 --> 01:09:08,000
And the, I guess the, the beginning
of my journey with clicker

1499
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:14,269
training with horses was it was a
tool that I used for everything.

1500
01:09:14,380 --> 01:09:14,880
Everything.

1501
01:09:14,909 --> 01:09:17,940
From the foundation all the way
through the more advanced maneuvers

1502
01:09:17,940 --> 01:09:19,780
because in my head, why not?

1503
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:20,819
Why not?

1504
01:09:20,850 --> 01:09:22,729
It's such a, a cool feeling.

1505
01:09:22,729 --> 01:09:27,350
It's an empowering feeling to have
horses who are genuinely excited

1506
01:09:27,690 --> 01:09:32,370
to show up and try to do the things
that you're asking them to do.

1507
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:33,260
Mm-hmm.

1508
01:09:33,705 --> 01:09:35,014
That idea of like, why not?

1509
01:09:35,045 --> 01:09:36,104
This, this feels good.

1510
01:09:36,104 --> 01:09:37,265
The, the feeling was good.

1511
01:09:37,265 --> 01:09:38,415
The excitement was there.

1512
01:09:38,415 --> 01:09:42,225
My horses were, to me, fairly happy
in the work that we were doing.

1513
01:09:42,225 --> 01:09:46,985
That served me well, well enough
until I started to try and

1514
01:09:46,985 --> 01:09:49,195
perform with my horses at liberty.

1515
01:09:49,824 --> 01:09:52,734
When I took behaviors that
were clicker trained- Mm-hmm

1516
01:09:52,765 --> 01:09:56,625
and I put them into environments
with substantial pressure-

1517
01:09:56,885 --> 01:09:57,185
Noelle: Yeah

1518
01:09:57,334 --> 01:09:59,185
... 
Kaleigh Marie: everything crumbled.

1519
01:09:59,285 --> 01:09:59,664
Noelle: Really?

1520
01:09:59,664 --> 01:10:00,574
Kaleigh Marie: Immediately.

1521
01:10:01,045 --> 01:10:01,644
Immediately.

1522
01:10:01,644 --> 01:10:08,685
And, and it produced a curiosity in me
that took me literally across oceans.

1523
01:10:09,034 --> 01:10:11,784
Like, I traveled... This is
when I worked with Ben Atkinson.

1524
01:10:11,784 --> 01:10:11,815
Mm-hmm.

1525
01:10:12,175 --> 01:10:14,335
Uh, eventually Will Rogers.

1526
01:10:14,444 --> 01:10:16,964
Uh, since then I, I've met
Mia Radley, like, just- Yeah

1527
01:10:16,964 --> 01:10:21,854
people across seas that have become,
um, inspirations and, and friends of

1528
01:10:21,854 --> 01:10:31,115
mine, looking for clues and answers as
to essentially how to elicit curiosity

1529
01:10:31,115 --> 01:10:37,034
without food, 'cause it was such an, a,
such a, a pillar in everything that I did

1530
01:10:37,034 --> 01:10:40,664
to say, "Okay, I can elicit engagement
and curiosity with the presence of food."

1531
01:10:40,664 --> 01:10:43,425
And I know there are people out
there that say, "Oh, I want my horse

1532
01:10:43,425 --> 01:10:46,414
to want to work with me and, and
not want to work with me because I

1533
01:10:46,414 --> 01:10:48,215
have food." I don't mind either way.

1534
01:10:48,215 --> 01:10:48,275
Yeah.

1535
01:10:48,275 --> 01:10:52,404
Like, if I'm exciting because I can
provide you with this thing, amazing.

1536
01:10:52,505 --> 01:10:52,825
Noelle: Mm.

1537
01:10:52,825 --> 01:10:54,944
Kaleigh Marie: Like, I'm... It's
not a personal affront to me.

1538
01:10:55,544 --> 01:11:03,374
But when I started to feel that one, in
the, the performing space, the things

1539
01:11:03,374 --> 01:11:09,164
that were so consistent at home were
not predictable at all, it started to

1540
01:11:09,164 --> 01:11:15,495
highlight that there was a lack of felt
safety in the horses in those spaces.

1541
01:11:15,495 --> 01:11:19,645
It's like the, the value that they found
in performing the things for the food-

1542
01:11:19,724 --> 01:11:20,194
Noelle: Mm

1543
01:11:20,194 --> 01:11:22,834
... 
Kaleigh Marie: didn't outweigh
the lack of security they felt

1544
01:11:22,834 --> 01:11:25,345
in being with me in the space.

1545
01:11:25,374 --> 01:11:25,914
Noelle: Gotcha.

1546
01:11:25,914 --> 01:11:32,635
Kaleigh Marie: So that was a, a key
to the wheels that started to turn,

1547
01:11:32,635 --> 01:11:37,535
and really the dominoes that started
to fall into wanting to, to fix

1548
01:11:37,565 --> 01:11:41,755
and repair more and more areas of
disconnect that I started to notice.

1549
01:11:41,755 --> 01:11:43,955
It's one of those things, once
you see it, you can't unsee it.

1550
01:11:43,984 --> 01:11:44,335
Noelle: Yeah.

1551
01:11:44,395 --> 01:11:46,505
Kaleigh Marie: I started to see it
in the performing spaces, and then

1552
01:11:46,535 --> 01:11:50,725
even at home practicing with them,
I started to notice when they were

1553
01:11:50,725 --> 01:11:54,234
engaged with me at liberty, like when
we were working at liberty, if and when

1554
01:11:54,234 --> 01:11:56,524
they were engaged, they were amazing.

1555
01:11:56,524 --> 01:11:58,845
They were intense, and excited,
and, and happy to be there.

1556
01:11:58,845 --> 01:12:02,714
But if they disconnected,
the disconnect was immense.

1557
01:12:02,714 --> 01:12:05,294
Like, it wasn't just
drift off and come back.

1558
01:12:05,324 --> 01:12:09,794
It was huge emotional overwhelm,
take off, run around, come back.

1559
01:12:09,794 --> 01:12:13,095
It's like the energy was- Up all the time

1560
01:12:13,235 --> 01:12:13,715
Noelle: Hmm.

1561
01:12:14,055 --> 01:12:16,475
Kaleigh Marie: Which I found
to be very, very puzzling.

1562
01:12:16,515 --> 01:12:20,135
And I, I like couldn't quite put
the pieces together because I

1563
01:12:20,175 --> 01:12:23,195
was so precise and so particular.

1564
01:12:23,315 --> 01:12:28,594
Like, I, I had reviewed everything that
I knew about clicker training, about

1565
01:12:28,615 --> 01:12:31,735
the consistency and the timing of the
click, the position that I was treating

1566
01:12:31,755 --> 01:12:35,355
them in, the rate of reinforcement, the
kind of food I was reinforcing with.

1567
01:12:35,405 --> 01:12:39,395
Like, everything was, it
was like brain surgery.

1568
01:12:39,535 --> 01:12:44,595
I was so, so confused by what was missing.

1569
01:12:44,935 --> 01:12:44,945
Yeah.

1570
01:12:44,945 --> 01:12:47,555
I was, I was so precise
in what I was doing.

1571
01:12:47,655 --> 01:12:52,764
And it was at that point that I
connected with Ben, Ben Atkinson-

1572
01:12:52,795 --> 01:12:53,825
Yeah ... over, over in England.

1573
01:12:54,255 --> 01:12:56,785
And Ben as a person, amazing.

1574
01:12:57,335 --> 01:13:01,055
The experience I had with him there,
like I'll, I'll sum it up so quickly

1575
01:13:01,075 --> 01:13:02,855
because I could talk about it for so long.

1576
01:13:02,895 --> 01:13:06,615
Within an hour of meeting the
guy, I was Roman riding two of his

1577
01:13:06,655 --> 01:13:08,335
horses with six horses at liberty.

1578
01:13:08,375 --> 01:13:10,775
Like, it was- Cool ... crazy experiences.

1579
01:13:10,985 --> 01:13:14,735
And for the remainder of that time,
and then I went back a second time

1580
01:13:15,194 --> 01:13:20,025
for longer and worked with him, worked
with his horses, to feel his horses

1581
01:13:20,115 --> 01:13:27,095
who he did not use food with, who were
so genuinely excited to just show up.

1582
01:13:27,355 --> 01:13:30,315
And it's like they didn't have to know
what you were doing, but they wanted

1583
01:13:30,355 --> 01:13:32,555
to be a part of it, especially for me.

1584
01:13:32,675 --> 01:13:33,715
I didn't know them.

1585
01:13:33,795 --> 01:13:36,905
I didn't know his training style, but
he would let me work with them and play

1586
01:13:36,915 --> 01:13:41,195
with them, and they were so interested
in what I was trying to tell them to do.

1587
01:13:41,255 --> 01:13:44,675
They didn't care if I was unclear, like
they were just there to work with me.

1588
01:13:44,815 --> 01:13:46,055
I was like, "This is the piece.

1589
01:13:46,255 --> 01:13:50,195
I have no idea how to replicate
this, but I know that this is it.

1590
01:13:50,595 --> 01:13:52,915
This is what I want to feel with
my horses, is that they're just

1591
01:13:52,975 --> 01:13:55,355
genuinely happy to be with me.

1592
01:13:55,395 --> 01:13:56,755
If food is a part of that, amazing.

1593
01:13:56,875 --> 01:13:57,305
If it isn't-

1594
01:13:57,795 --> 01:13:58,015
Noelle: Yeah

1595
01:13:58,115 --> 01:13:58,495
... 
Kaleigh Marie: fine.

1596
01:13:58,575 --> 01:14:02,355
I don't know how to navigate that,
but fine." And I went home from that

1597
01:14:02,395 --> 01:14:07,115
trip, and the first thing I did, just
out of curiosity, was I took food out.

1598
01:14:07,255 --> 01:14:11,535
I was like, "What do I have if
the food isn't there?" And within

1599
01:14:11,595 --> 01:14:15,795
two days, my horses gave me a
resounding answer, which was nothing.

1600
01:14:16,595 --> 01:14:21,355
Like, quite literally, they would
not walk with me at liberty without

1601
01:14:21,365 --> 01:14:25,895
the click and the treat, which
was humbling and terrifying and

1602
01:14:25,915 --> 01:14:28,315
relieving all at the same time.

1603
01:14:28,375 --> 01:14:34,135
Because like you mentioned b- before in,
in Brendan's interview, the rock bottom.

1604
01:14:34,395 --> 01:14:38,235
You wanna talk about rock bottom-
Yeah ... as an up and coming aspiring

1605
01:14:38,295 --> 01:14:44,275
liberty trainer and performer, to have
your two best horses just flat out refuse.

1606
01:14:44,335 --> 01:14:48,395
And, and when I say refuse, like if
there was pressure, they would run-

1607
01:14:48,655 --> 01:14:50,075
Whoa ... in the opposite direction.

1608
01:14:50,195 --> 01:14:55,775
So it exposed a huge hole in
the foundation that I had with

1609
01:14:55,815 --> 01:14:58,755
them, which was the relationship
that they had with pressure.

1610
01:14:59,574 --> 01:15:03,514
And the idea that I, I finally,
this came full circle for me

1611
01:15:03,514 --> 01:15:06,804
later after I rebuilt everything.

1612
01:15:06,804 --> 01:15:11,395
And when I s- say, say rebuilt, I
invented the method that I have today

1613
01:15:11,444 --> 01:15:13,164
with them in that stage of my life.

1614
01:15:13,164 --> 01:15:17,774
I was like, "I need tools that lead
to peaceful duration and relaxation

1615
01:15:17,774 --> 01:15:20,954
with pressure." That was, like,
the, the huge piece I was missing.

1616
01:15:20,954 --> 01:15:25,655
And to realize later once I had that,
that all of the time they spent with

1617
01:15:25,655 --> 01:15:31,665
me motivated by food at liberty was
in resistance to the tension that they

1618
01:15:31,665 --> 01:15:36,194
were also feeling in accordance to
the pressure I was applying with them.

1619
01:15:36,194 --> 01:15:40,494
When the, the value of the food outweighed
the discomfort of the pressure, they

1620
01:15:40,494 --> 01:15:43,705
would stay, and when the discomfort of
the pressure outweighed the value of the

1621
01:15:43,705 --> 01:15:47,395
food, they would go, which was like, whoa.

1622
01:15:47,395 --> 01:15:47,435
Yeah.

1623
01:15:47,435 --> 01:15:52,474
So there's this, this narrative in,
in the positive reinforcement world

1624
01:15:52,755 --> 01:15:56,834
that you can train with positive
reinforcement without pressure.

1625
01:15:57,654 --> 01:16:00,115
I don't believe that that's true
because to me- I don't believe that's

1626
01:16:00,115 --> 01:16:00,584
Noelle: true either

1627
01:16:00,584 --> 01:16:03,574
... 
Kaleigh Marie: pressure is anything
that activates the nervous system.

1628
01:16:03,574 --> 01:16:03,644
Yes.

1629
01:16:04,574 --> 01:16:06,425
Anything that activates
the nervous system.

1630
01:16:06,535 --> 01:16:10,214
The nervous system is
designed to be activated.

1631
01:16:10,254 --> 01:16:10,464
Yes.

1632
01:16:10,495 --> 01:16:12,815
I see this in positive
reinforcement circles as well,

1633
01:16:12,815 --> 01:16:14,915
is that they view stress as bad.

1634
01:16:14,915 --> 01:16:19,275
Stress is necessary in controlled and
predictable environments- Yes ... so that

1635
01:16:19,305 --> 01:16:22,904
I can prove, whether it's, it's humans
or horses, 'cause we're the same here,

1636
01:16:23,315 --> 01:16:28,194
whether it's me proving to myself that
I am capable and I can overcome this

1637
01:16:28,194 --> 01:16:33,635
challenge in front of me and find safety
in myself and in the space around me

1638
01:16:33,635 --> 01:16:38,165
to add strength and resilience to that
system, or if it's in my horse with, and

1639
01:16:38,165 --> 01:16:43,855
sometimes without my help, them having
a good relationship with the internal

1640
01:16:43,855 --> 01:16:45,214
activation of their nervous system.

1641
01:16:45,214 --> 01:16:45,285
Yes.

1642
01:16:45,285 --> 01:16:50,425
Meaning they feel activation and they
feel capable of regulating themselves.

1643
01:16:50,855 --> 01:16:55,925
That, to me, became not just the new
pillar of working them at liberty, but

1644
01:16:56,214 --> 01:17:01,574
has become, I feel, a responsibility
that as people we have to the horses.

1645
01:17:01,745 --> 01:17:01,985
Noelle: Mm.

1646
01:17:02,025 --> 01:17:07,285
Kaleigh Marie: Of if I was to leave
my horses with one thing, if there

1647
01:17:07,285 --> 01:17:11,175
came a day where we had to part ways,
which I pray to the heavens will never

1648
01:17:11,175 --> 01:17:14,695
happen because they are everything
to me, but if it had to happen, if I

1649
01:17:14,695 --> 01:17:19,494
could leave them with one thing, it
would be their capability to regulate

1650
01:17:19,494 --> 01:17:20,815
their nervous system without my help.

1651
01:17:20,884 --> 01:17:20,975
Yes.

1652
01:17:21,115 --> 01:17:21,304
Noelle: Yes.

1653
01:17:21,304 --> 01:17:22,225
Kaleigh Marie: Without my help.

1654
01:17:22,274 --> 01:17:27,794
I find so often we look at the idea
of, of leadership as, as like I just

1655
01:17:27,794 --> 01:17:29,535
want my horse to be happy following me.

1656
01:17:30,434 --> 01:17:32,014
They're without me, like right now.

1657
01:17:32,014 --> 01:17:32,695
They're at home.

1658
01:17:32,695 --> 01:17:32,914
They're so happy.

1659
01:17:33,035 --> 01:17:34,304
I'm, I'm not helping them.

1660
01:17:34,425 --> 01:17:34,625
Yeah.

1661
01:17:34,654 --> 01:17:41,770
And, and the idea that I can provide
them with- The, the opportunity and

1662
01:17:41,770 --> 01:17:47,090
the education to physically change how
they experience the world around them.

1663
01:17:47,090 --> 01:17:51,109
Like, if, if we train intentionally
with nervous system informed training,

1664
01:17:51,109 --> 01:17:55,060
connection based training, it's not just
that we have a great relationship with the

1665
01:17:55,060 --> 01:18:00,130
horses, it's that physically we provide
them with tools that they would never have

1666
01:18:00,509 --> 01:18:05,679
otherwise- Mm ... to be relaxed and secure
in a world that was not made for them.

1667
01:18:06,029 --> 01:18:06,259
Noelle: No.

1668
01:18:06,300 --> 01:18:09,130
Kaleigh Marie: And that's, it's a
beautiful thing to, to have that.

1669
01:18:09,130 --> 01:18:09,310
Actually,

1670
01:18:09,310 --> 01:18:11,250
Noelle: the world we live in
was not made for lots of things.

1671
01:18:11,279 --> 01:18:11,799
Kaleigh Marie: I know.

1672
01:18:11,839 --> 01:18:13,929
Noelle: Lot, like- It really
is ... as, I'm like sitting here

1673
01:18:13,929 --> 01:18:15,530
Kaleigh Marie: like- And people
too, it's like that's me too.

1674
01:18:15,530 --> 01:18:19,240
Of, of like it's not, it's not made
for us to connect with each other.

1675
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:21,909
It's not made for us to
find that regulation either.

1676
01:18:21,909 --> 01:18:24,089
Noelle: Like, I think it's so
important- Yeah ... to, to, to

1677
01:18:24,089 --> 01:18:28,039
emphasize that the world we live in
is m- is not made for a lot of things.

1678
01:18:28,039 --> 01:18:28,069
Mm-hmm.

1679
01:18:28,069 --> 01:18:32,440
So when we say, "Oh, the world is not made
for horses," it's not made for community.

1680
01:18:32,440 --> 01:18:33,299
It's not made for-

1681
01:18:33,299 --> 01:18:33,560
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1682
01:18:33,679 --> 01:18:36,319
... 
Noelle: you know, like for
alternate ways of thinking-

1683
01:18:36,319 --> 01:18:37,530
Yeah ... for our diverse people.

1684
01:18:37,530 --> 01:18:40,639
Like, there's lots of things in which-
Mm ... the world is not made for.

1685
01:18:40,639 --> 01:18:43,860
So horses are not, you know, like it's...
And, and- Yeah ... so that, I think that

1686
01:18:43,860 --> 01:18:45,780
gives us even access to more empathy.

1687
01:18:45,780 --> 01:18:48,969
That, okay- Absolutely ... how can we
give them all the skills to thrive-

1688
01:18:48,969 --> 01:18:50,269
Absolutely ... and to be empowered-

1689
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:50,680
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1690
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:52,420
... 
Noelle: in the, in the
environment that they live in.

1691
01:18:52,420 --> 01:18:52,920
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1692
01:18:53,140 --> 01:18:56,320
So to, to wrap that all the way back
to clicker training- Yeah ... like the,

1693
01:18:56,549 --> 01:19:01,740
the role it plays for me now, if I was
to kind of grossly oversimplify it, I

1694
01:19:01,740 --> 01:19:05,310
would boil it down to two words- Mm-hmm
... which is quality and difficulty.

1695
01:19:05,829 --> 01:19:10,860
So if I have a, an area of quality,
like for me a huge piece of my work at

1696
01:19:10,860 --> 01:19:13,369
Liberty is self-carriage and posture.

1697
01:19:13,759 --> 01:19:16,909
And posture not as in vertical
flexion, because it is quite easy

1698
01:19:16,909 --> 01:19:21,899
to produce false posture in liberty
horses, which I did actually for a

1699
01:19:21,899 --> 01:19:23,399
long time through clicker training.

1700
01:19:23,969 --> 01:19:29,240
But to produce correct physical
biomechanical posture in all of

1701
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,820
the horse, that's a huge piece
of the work that I do at Liberty.

1702
01:19:32,820 --> 01:19:33,149
To- Cool

1703
01:19:33,149 --> 01:19:37,009
to develop them not just emotionally,
but, but physically, and that is

1704
01:19:37,009 --> 01:19:39,259
a piece I clicker train hugely.

1705
01:19:39,689 --> 01:19:44,549
Uh, so whether it's, it's a piece
like that, quality, and, and we look

1706
01:19:44,549 --> 01:19:48,090
at things like trick training, things
like that, areas that we can start

1707
01:19:48,090 --> 01:19:49,490
to bring the clicker training into.

1708
01:19:49,519 --> 01:19:53,870
Or difficulty, if I have a horse who
is a little outside of the box, maybe

1709
01:19:53,870 --> 01:19:57,620
a foundational exercise that I would
typically be training with pressure and

1710
01:19:57,620 --> 01:20:02,409
release, to take the opportunity to let
that horse develop a good relationship

1711
01:20:02,409 --> 01:20:06,650
with pressure, to help the nervous
system become more resilient if needed.

1712
01:20:06,990 --> 01:20:10,430
If there's a piece that is hugely
difficult and I'm lacking curiosity and

1713
01:20:10,430 --> 01:20:14,930
motivation, and it's becoming detrimental
in the relationship we, we have with each

1714
01:20:14,930 --> 01:20:19,320
other, I will absolutely go get a treat
pouch and start clicker training maybe

1715
01:20:19,359 --> 01:20:23,019
earlier than I might with another horse-
Mm-hmm ... for that specific exercise.

1716
01:20:23,019 --> 01:20:27,389
But I really look at the exercise
as the context for where food

1717
01:20:27,389 --> 01:20:28,529
is available and where it isn't.

1718
01:20:29,690 --> 01:20:33,159
If I train something with food,
food will always be woven into the

1719
01:20:33,159 --> 01:20:37,180
conversation of that thing, which
is what comes back to consistency.

1720
01:20:37,519 --> 01:20:43,970
Like, I can't just use it for a little
while and then take it out completely.

1721
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:48,589
If I intentionally phase clicker
training out through... Like, we, we

1722
01:20:48,589 --> 01:20:52,339
build behavior with clicker training
through consistent reinforcement.

1723
01:20:52,339 --> 01:20:52,370
Mm-hmm.

1724
01:20:52,689 --> 01:20:56,310
Maybe gradually upping the
expectation to shape the behavior

1725
01:20:56,589 --> 01:20:57,779
into what we want it to be.

1726
01:20:58,210 --> 01:21:02,730
We would phase it out through inconsistent
reinforcement, which when we've created

1727
01:21:02,730 --> 01:21:07,340
a behavior that we like, eventually
becoming more and more inconsistent.

1728
01:21:07,340 --> 01:21:10,390
At first just a little bit, maybe
there's a repetition I would usually

1729
01:21:10,390 --> 01:21:14,879
click for that I'm just not gonna click
for this time, and maybe one turns into

1730
01:21:14,879 --> 01:21:16,590
two or three, turns into five or six.

1731
01:21:16,860 --> 01:21:20,939
Over a period of days, weeks,
months, we phase the food out.

1732
01:21:20,939 --> 01:21:21,849
That is an option.

1733
01:21:21,849 --> 01:21:25,120
So when, uh, I say that we're not
just gonna stop using the food,

1734
01:21:26,009 --> 01:21:27,870
that's not what I mean, 'cause
that's an option on the table.

1735
01:21:27,870 --> 01:21:31,590
What I do mean is that I'm not
gonna introduce food to that horse

1736
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:34,380
for one or two weeks and then
take it out because now I have the

1737
01:21:34,380 --> 01:21:35,840
exercise and I can just move on.

1738
01:21:35,950 --> 01:21:36,380
Noelle: Mm.

1739
01:21:36,380 --> 01:21:41,679
Kaleigh Marie: I can increase the
expectation to say, when you perform a

1740
01:21:41,679 --> 01:21:46,179
higher quality version, difficulty and
quality, a higher quality version of

1741
01:21:46,179 --> 01:21:48,300
this thing, I'll click and treat for it.

1742
01:21:48,300 --> 01:21:52,639
So now I'm not clicking and treating
for just the, the elementary movements

1743
01:21:52,639 --> 01:21:54,280
that I might be using on a daily basis.

1744
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:57,319
But my gosh, if you do a really good
job, better than I'm expecting you

1745
01:21:57,319 --> 01:21:58,689
to, I could click and treat for that.

1746
01:21:59,469 --> 01:22:03,039
But it's not something that is
optional or intermittent once we

1747
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:07,009
start to train a behavior with it,
if we really want to live by the idea

1748
01:22:07,009 --> 01:22:10,219
of consistency, which I really think
with clicker training we need to.

1749
01:22:10,910 --> 01:22:13,509
Noelle: I think you've given a lot of
people permission- Yeah ... in this

1750
01:22:13,509 --> 01:22:18,219
episode- Yeah ... to, like, to try
and to fail and to change or to, to

1751
01:22:18,219 --> 01:22:19,550
really succeed- Mm ... at something.

1752
01:22:19,550 --> 01:22:25,429
Like, I love the way that you were
able to articulate so beautifully-

1753
01:22:25,509 --> 01:22:28,660
Mm ... this experience of integrating
clicker training and then all of

1754
01:22:28,660 --> 01:22:30,969
a sudden being like, "Hold on."

1755
01:22:30,969 --> 01:22:31,579
Hold on.

1756
01:22:31,579 --> 01:22:32,880
Like, full rock bottom.

1757
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:32,920
Yeah.

1758
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,289
Like, I'm a liberty training,
a trainer- Yeah ... and my best

1759
01:22:35,289 --> 01:22:37,340
horses cannot be at liberty with me.

1760
01:22:37,489 --> 01:22:37,769
Kaleigh Marie: Mm-hmm.

1761
01:22:37,769 --> 01:22:41,129
Noelle: That's really powerful
to provide a permission slip-

1762
01:22:41,129 --> 01:22:44,090
Mm ... to change and to pivot-

1763
01:22:44,259 --> 01:22:44,489
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1764
01:22:44,700 --> 01:22:48,470
... 
Noelle: and to the power of, like, the
evolution- Mm ... that you can pick

1765
01:22:48,519 --> 01:22:50,310
up and put down, pick up and put down.

1766
01:22:50,340 --> 01:22:52,679
Kaleigh Marie: Always, and,
and you should forever.

1767
01:22:52,730 --> 01:22:56,090
Like, I, I think if you ever reach a
space where you're like, "Yep, this is

1768
01:22:56,090 --> 01:23:00,170
good. This is where I'm gonna operate
for the rest of my time here on this

1769
01:23:00,170 --> 01:23:04,750
green earth," like, you've, you've lost
the purpose of being a horse person-

1770
01:23:04,750 --> 01:23:07,500
Yeah ... which is to learn- continuously.

1771
01:23:07,769 --> 01:23:11,820
That's not always comfortable,
and referencing the, the round

1772
01:23:11,820 --> 01:23:14,279
table discussion I got to
witness yesterday, like the- Yeah

1773
01:23:14,279 --> 01:23:19,250
the feeling of learning is
not parallel to the outcome of

1774
01:23:19,250 --> 01:23:21,739
learning, which learning sucks.

1775
01:23:21,770 --> 01:23:22,530
Like, you can- Yeah.

1776
01:23:22,530 --> 01:23:27,709
... feel like, like you suck at what's going
on, and usually the most influential

1777
01:23:27,709 --> 01:23:31,879
lessons that we learn are the lessons
that, that are the most challenging-

1778
01:23:31,940 --> 01:23:34,709
Mm ... and the most painful, and it
doesn't feel good to go through it, but

1779
01:23:34,709 --> 01:23:39,220
my gosh, on the other side of it, that's
where I, I really feel like that's where

1780
01:23:39,220 --> 01:23:41,250
we develop and grow the most as people.

1781
01:23:41,330 --> 01:23:41,639
Yeah.

1782
01:23:41,669 --> 01:23:41,990
Yeah.

1783
01:23:42,450 --> 01:23:42,700
Noelle: Ugh.

1784
01:23:42,970 --> 01:23:43,259
Yeah.

1785
01:23:43,330 --> 01:23:45,650
We need to do a follow-up, 'cause I
have so many- I'm so excited ... more

1786
01:23:45,650 --> 01:23:46,729
questions I wanna ask you.

1787
01:23:47,060 --> 01:23:52,029
But in our well-held tradition-
Mm-hmm ... I'm gonna dive into

1788
01:23:52,029 --> 01:23:54,540
our rapid fire, 'cause I'm really-
Okay ... excited to hear your answers.

1789
01:23:54,569 --> 01:23:54,849
Yeah, I'm

1790
01:23:54,849 --> 01:23:55,279
Kaleigh Marie: excited

1791
01:23:55,279 --> 01:23:55,340
Noelle: too.

1792
01:23:55,340 --> 01:23:57,130
And then we're gonna
keep all those questions-

1793
01:23:57,159 --> 01:23:57,990
Kaleigh Marie: Yes, and-

1794
01:23:57,990 --> 01:23:59,209
Noelle: And we're gonna do a follow-up.

1795
01:23:59,250 --> 01:23:59,520
Okay.

1796
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,319
There's so many, much more that I-
So many ... wanna dive into with you.

1797
01:24:02,319 --> 01:24:02,810
Kaleigh Marie: So many.

1798
01:24:03,069 --> 01:24:03,360
Noelle: Okay.

1799
01:24:03,740 --> 01:24:05,889
Who is the most iconic horse in history?

1800
01:24:07,540 --> 01:24:08,610
Kaleigh Marie: In history?

1801
01:24:08,869 --> 01:24:09,970
Oh, gosh.

1802
01:24:11,639 --> 01:24:15,419
For me, it would be The Black Stallion,
because- I was gonna ask ... that is- Okay

1803
01:24:15,419 --> 01:24:17,160
... the movie I watched so many times.

1804
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:20,680
The scene on the beach, running around
at liberty so many times as a kid.

1805
01:24:21,150 --> 01:24:25,309
Uh, just I, I feel like in
all of us there's, like,

1806
01:24:25,309 --> 01:24:26,419
that, that little horse kid.

1807
01:24:26,419 --> 01:24:28,139
Like, for me, it's that-
Okay ... little horse girl, and I

1808
01:24:28,139 --> 01:24:30,000
still f- I still feel her in there.

1809
01:24:30,000 --> 01:24:32,819
Like, there are moments with my horses
where I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, there

1810
01:24:32,819 --> 01:24:36,500
she is." Like, me sitting on the couch
being like, "I wanna do that one day."

1811
01:24:37,150 --> 01:24:40,800
Uh, and I, I do feel like
that's just an iconic movie.

1812
01:24:41,050 --> 01:24:41,309
Noelle: I-

1813
01:24:41,309 --> 01:24:41,750
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1814
01:24:41,750 --> 01:24:44,930
... 
Noelle: can't tell you how many people
have told me how that scene in that

1815
01:24:44,930 --> 01:24:47,949
movie- Yeah ... has been, like, h- made
s- I don't know if those people who made

1816
01:24:47,949 --> 01:24:49,750
that, like, the team that made that movie-

1817
01:24:49,750 --> 01:24:50,139
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah

1818
01:24:50,459 --> 01:24:53,730
... 
Noelle: if they, if, if Francis
Ford Coppola would've known that

1819
01:24:53,730 --> 01:24:57,760
he was gonna make a film that
would have that much impact- Yeah

1820
01:24:57,790 --> 01:24:59,959
on horse people- Mm ... that scene.

1821
01:24:59,959 --> 01:25:02,319
Mm. But do you know, do
you ... You probably do know this.

1822
01:25:02,319 --> 01:25:06,860
Do you know, like, who The Black Stallion,
who that, like, the story is based off?

1823
01:25:06,860 --> 01:25:07,150
I, I actually

1824
01:25:07,150 --> 01:25:07,930
Kaleigh Marie: don't, no.

1825
01:25:07,989 --> 01:25:11,589
Noelle: It's based off of... So the, the,
the movie itself is- Yeah ... based off

1826
01:25:11,589 --> 01:25:13,180
of Alexander the Great and Bucephalus.

1827
01:25:13,269 --> 01:25:14,009
Kaleigh Marie: Wow.

1828
01:25:14,110 --> 01:25:15,759
Noelle: The boy- Yeah,
that's the beginning

1829
01:25:15,759 --> 01:25:16,350
tames the un-tameable horse.

1830
01:25:16,350 --> 01:25:16,399
The

1831
01:25:16,399 --> 01:25:17,080
Kaleigh Marie: beginning, yeah.

1832
01:25:17,080 --> 01:25:17,309
That whole-

1833
01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:20,479
Noelle: The beginning horse, wow ... the
whole story frame- Mm ... of The Black

1834
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:21,770
Stallion is- Yeah ... based off of-

1835
01:25:21,820 --> 01:25:22,009
Kaleigh Marie: That's

1836
01:25:22,009 --> 01:25:25,110
Noelle: so cool ... that, that legend,
that's, that, those people in history.

1837
01:25:25,410 --> 01:25:25,470
Wow.

1838
01:25:25,470 --> 01:25:28,750
So most valued, undervalued skill as a

1839
01:25:28,750 --> 01:25:29,130
Kaleigh Marie: rider.

1840
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,619
Anything that lets you
feel your body more.

1841
01:25:34,039 --> 01:25:37,199
Outside of horses,
dancing, gymnastics, yoga.

1842
01:25:37,460 --> 01:25:38,750
Like, get in your body.

1843
01:25:38,750 --> 01:25:39,990
Move your body.

1844
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:40,419
Cool.

1845
01:25:40,419 --> 01:25:44,550
Because if you're not moving
your body, it is, it, I feel

1846
01:25:44,550 --> 01:25:45,740
like it goes one way or another.

1847
01:25:45,740 --> 01:25:45,970
I love that.

1848
01:25:46,020 --> 01:25:46,080
Yeah.

1849
01:25:46,110 --> 01:25:49,699
It, it degrades or it gets stronger,
so make it stronger and feel

1850
01:25:49,699 --> 01:25:50,899
it as much as you possibly can.

1851
01:25:51,500 --> 01:25:51,630
Yep.

1852
01:25:52,199 --> 01:25:52,270
Yeah.

1853
01:25:52,270 --> 01:25:52,929
Noelle: I love that.

1854
01:25:52,990 --> 01:25:53,149
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1855
01:25:54,139 --> 01:25:56,949
Noelle: Who is the greatest
horseman or horsewoman in history?

1856
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:00,509
Kaleigh Marie: Gosh, in hist-
These are, these are big questions.

1857
01:26:00,509 --> 01:26:03,149
Uh, I'm n- I'm not gonna
overthink it, 'cause I could-

1858
01:26:03,655 --> 01:26:06,554
Over complicate this in a big way.

1859
01:26:07,555 --> 01:26:12,665
And this, this one's so, th- this is
tripping me up a little bit because so

1860
01:26:12,665 --> 01:26:15,644
many people have contributed so much.

1861
01:26:15,875 --> 01:26:21,854
I think I'm gonna go more in the direction
of who, who has inspired me in the

1862
01:26:21,854 --> 01:26:25,985
most wholesome way, not just as like a-
Mm ... a facet of their horsemanship or

1863
01:26:25,985 --> 01:26:30,524
a facet of them as, as a person that I've
really been inspired by, but just as a

1864
01:26:30,524 --> 01:26:35,074
person with their horses, who have I just
been enamored by since the beginning of

1865
01:26:35,074 --> 01:26:36,584
this, and it would be Silvia Zerbini.

1866
01:26:37,104 --> 01:26:39,134
I think she's phenomenal.

1867
01:26:39,165 --> 01:26:44,134
As a person, her poise, her ability to
communicate, her presence, like being

1868
01:26:44,134 --> 01:26:48,354
in a room with somebody that from the
first time I saw her at Equine Affaire

1869
01:26:48,354 --> 01:26:51,305
in 2018 to, like, producing BreyerFest.

1870
01:26:51,845 --> 01:26:54,125
Last year, Brendan and I were,
were in the show at BreyerFest.

1871
01:26:54,185 --> 01:26:56,825
Any time you're in the room with
her, you are inspired and a little

1872
01:26:56,825 --> 01:26:59,055
bit scared every single time.

1873
01:26:59,354 --> 01:27:03,125
And it's not, it's, she's so kind
and so articulate, but it's just in

1874
01:27:03,125 --> 01:27:04,395
the way that she carries herself.

1875
01:27:04,794 --> 01:27:04,924
Cool.

1876
01:27:04,924 --> 01:27:09,044
And the understanding she has of the
horses, and her, her show presence,

1877
01:27:09,044 --> 01:27:13,824
her ability to present to an audience,
I feel like in the world of liberty

1878
01:27:13,824 --> 01:27:17,574
performers right now, she's up there
as, as one of the best of the best.

1879
01:27:17,845 --> 01:27:17,934
Cool.

1880
01:27:17,934 --> 01:27:20,595
So yeah, I really, I enjoy her a lot.

1881
01:27:20,985 --> 01:27:22,004
Noelle: Okay, and last question.

1882
01:27:22,004 --> 01:27:22,305
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1883
01:27:23,144 --> 01:27:25,025
Noelle: Which I'm curious
actually gonna be your answer.

1884
01:27:25,055 --> 01:27:25,305
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1885
01:27:25,504 --> 01:27:27,014
Noelle: Mares, stallions, or geldings?

1886
01:27:27,474 --> 01:27:28,175
Kaleigh Marie: Stallions.

1887
01:27:29,375 --> 01:27:30,364
Noelle: Hey.

1888
01:27:30,394 --> 01:27:31,025
Why?

1889
01:27:31,254 --> 01:27:31,784
Kaleigh Marie: Why?

1890
01:27:32,315 --> 01:27:38,205
We take a look at connection, what
we want to have for healthy nervous

1891
01:27:38,205 --> 01:27:40,114
system regulation and interaction.

1892
01:27:40,315 --> 01:27:45,254
Huge pieces of it, responsiveness,
curiosity, and social engagement.

1893
01:27:45,434 --> 01:27:50,355
And if you were to embody those things
in a horse, where so many horses,

1894
01:27:50,355 --> 01:27:54,925
mares, geldings, I find this kind of
work has to draw those things out,

1895
01:27:54,925 --> 01:27:58,764
and then eventually we have, like, who
they are as an individual in the room

1896
01:27:58,764 --> 01:28:00,355
with us, and, and we get to shape them.

1897
01:28:00,824 --> 01:28:04,764
Quite consistently with stallions, it's
the opposite of, like, whoa, let's dial

1898
01:28:04,764 --> 01:28:08,754
those things back until we have the
pieces that we need to just allow whoever

1899
01:28:08,754 --> 01:28:10,955
you are to, to come into the room.

1900
01:28:10,955 --> 01:28:13,825
Like, they love to express
themselves so much.

1901
01:28:14,144 --> 01:28:19,564
And I think beyond that, just
their level of, of enthusiasm

1902
01:28:19,784 --> 01:28:21,055
and expression for the work.

1903
01:28:21,055 --> 01:28:23,064
Mm. I really, I really enjoy them a lot.

1904
01:28:23,635 --> 01:28:23,715
Noelle: Yeah.

1905
01:28:23,715 --> 01:28:25,724
Well, Kaeli, thank you so much.

1906
01:28:25,984 --> 01:28:27,454
Kaleigh Marie: Thank you
so much for having me.

1907
01:28:27,504 --> 01:28:28,215
Coming on the pod- Yeah ... we

1908
01:28:28,215 --> 01:28:28,734
Noelle: all learn

1909
01:28:28,734 --> 01:28:28,834
Kaleigh Marie: a

1910
01:28:28,834 --> 01:28:29,234
Noelle: ton.

1911
01:28:29,234 --> 01:28:29,295
Kaleigh Marie: Yeah.

1912
01:28:29,364 --> 01:28:30,114
Noelle: So thank you.

1913
01:28:30,305 --> 01:28:30,874
Kaleigh Marie: Amazing.

1914
01:28:32,405 --> 01:28:32,855
Noelle: Nice, dude.

1915
01:28:33,954 --> 01:28:34,215
Kaleigh Marie: Well

1916
01:28:34,215 --> 01:28:35,174
Noelle: done.