Cattitude - Episode 287 PAWS, Laws & Claws: The Legal Side of Saving Cats

<v Speaker 1>Live. This is Pet Life Radio. Let's Talk Pets.
<v Speaker 2>Hello, Felin and friends. Welcome to counta Tude. We have
<v Speaker 2>a very interesting show today. We're going to talk to
<v Speaker 2>the new director of Pause and we'll all talk about
<v Speaker 2>how animals are affected, our cats are affected with animal
<v Speaker 2>welfare and different legal implications. Something yeah, we don't usually
<v Speaker 2>talk about, but it's there and it's important for you
<v Speaker 2>to know about. So stay tuned. We'll be right back.
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<v Speaker 4>Let's talk pets on Petlife Radio dot com.
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back everyone. I'd like to welcome Sherry Hines. She
<v Speaker 2>is a professor at the University of Georgia Law with
<v Speaker 2>a focus on animal welfare. Welcome Sherry.
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
<v Speaker 5>be here.
<v Speaker 2>I'm excited to have you. Can you share a little
<v Speaker 2>bit about your background for our listener.
<v Speaker 5>I'm sure absolutely. I have to be honest, I never
<v Speaker 5>thought in a million years, so when I went to
<v Speaker 5>law school that I would be able to specialize on
<v Speaker 5>animal law. I'd always said that I volunteered with animals
<v Speaker 5>and I worked with people. But here I am now
<v Speaker 5>as a professor at UGA, and one of my main focuses,
<v Speaker 5>as you said, is animal law. In fact, I'll be
<v Speaker 5>teaching a class next year called Crimes against Animals that
<v Speaker 5>I'm developing. In terms of my background, I graduated from
<v Speaker 5>law school and worked as a public defender, so the
<v Speaker 5>typical if someone can't afford representations, I won't be appointed.
<v Speaker 5>That was me for about six and a half years,
<v Speaker 5>so I've had a good exposure to the criminal defense
<v Speaker 5>side of things. Following that, I worked for the Institute
<v Speaker 5>of Continuing Legal Education, so I cut a little of
<v Speaker 5>the education focus and then the vast majority of my
<v Speaker 5>time so about seven and a half years. Immediately prior
<v Speaker 5>to coming to UGA, I was able to work in
<v Speaker 5>the Athenstark County Attorney's Office, which was a fantastic opportunity
<v Speaker 5>to start leveraging kind of my interest in animal law.
<v Speaker 5>Because I was able to serve as then advising our
<v Speaker 5>animal services department. I was able to prosecute all the
<v Speaker 5>animal ordinance violations that occurred in Athenstark County, to assist
<v Speaker 5>in animal cruelty prosecutions, and to help with dangerous dogs
<v Speaker 5>and legislation drafting. So specifically, I was able to help
<v Speaker 5>with T and R program for cats. So it's been
<v Speaker 5>a really fun ability to sort of shift my focus
<v Speaker 5>to something I'm so passionate about. In terms of more
<v Speaker 5>of a personal history, I have always been around animals
<v Speaker 5>because my dad was a vet growing ups and we
<v Speaker 5>were primarily a cat household, although we had lots of
<v Speaker 5>other animals. I have volunteered with wildlife. I did that
<v Speaker 5>for a while because, as I'm sure many of your
<v Speaker 5>listeners can understand, sometimes it can be challenging going to
<v Speaker 5>shelters and knowing that you can't save them all. So
<v Speaker 5>working with wildlife was a little bit of a break
<v Speaker 5>from that. But since then, so since about twenty sixteen on,
<v Speaker 5>I've focused pretty much all of my volunteer activity with
<v Speaker 5>companion animals, so I've served on the board of multiple nonprofits,
<v Speaker 5>animal related nonprofits. I'm currently on the board of the
<v Speaker 5>Madison Older Animal Shelter, which is a small rule shelter,
<v Speaker 5>and we're very much a working board. I was the
<v Speaker 5>president for five years. I've also served as a foster
<v Speaker 5>parent and a volunteer for lots of different local animal
<v Speaker 5>rescue groups, originally focusing a lot on cats. That that
<v Speaker 5>was how I got involved as a cat volunteer, but
<v Speaker 5>my husband has gradually turned me into just as much
<v Speaker 5>of a dog person as a cat person. So I
<v Speaker 5>really I'm one of those people that, like I would
<v Speaker 5>hug an alligator if someone gave me one and I
<v Speaker 5>was fairly confident it wasn't going to bite me.
<v Speaker 2>No, let me ask you about this. Thank you for
<v Speaker 2>sharing your background. Yeah, thank you for coming on the
<v Speaker 2>show today. I have a question because my background is
<v Speaker 2>in business. So the only law class I took was
<v Speaker 2>business law, so very different. But that is not too
<v Speaker 2>common unless I missed something researching, it seemed to be
<v Speaker 2>not very common. You know, animal law, animal welfare. Is
<v Speaker 2>that something new?
<v Speaker 5>That's right? It is something that's newer. There's certainly some
<v Speaker 5>places where it's been established for a long time, Like
<v Speaker 5>Vermont has a really good law school that's been focusing
<v Speaker 5>on us for a long time, and there's certainly others
<v Speaker 5>across the nation. But you're right that animal law is
<v Speaker 5>a specialty, is not something typically that people will go
<v Speaker 5>in and only practice animal law. And they are good
<v Speaker 5>reasons why animal law as a specialty is just now
<v Speaker 5>sort of coming forward, And I think one of the
<v Speaker 5>main ones is that animal law tends to touch on
<v Speaker 5>lots of different practice areas that are not necessarily combined
<v Speaker 5>except as it relates to animals. So animals are considered property,
<v Speaker 5>even though we all love them and we think of
<v Speaker 5>them as our children. Sometimes animals are legally the same
<v Speaker 5>as a car, except that you have to feed it,
<v Speaker 5>you have to take care of it in a different way.
<v Speaker 5>So there are property interests related to divorce and wills
<v Speaker 5>and states and things like that that are kind of
<v Speaker 5>one niche area. But then you certainly have like an
<v Speaker 5>agriculture of the animal law field, where people are worried about,
<v Speaker 5>you know, farming and human practices. Then you have issues
<v Speaker 5>related to criminal law, which of course is my focus.
<v Speaker 5>We're talking about enforcement and animal protection. So there's just
<v Speaker 5>a lot of different facets and a lot of times
<v Speaker 5>the attorney practice is one isn't going to practice another.
<v Speaker 5>And so that's why you won't come across many people
<v Speaker 5>who practice solely in this area, but you will come
<v Speaker 5>across a lot of attorney of attorneys who have to
<v Speaker 5>deal with this in some form of fashion, you know,
<v Speaker 5>from time to time in their career.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I could see the rarity and why it's such
<v Speaker 2>a specialization. We have a few topics I want to
<v Speaker 2>talk about. Let's talk about pet safety and legal considerations
<v Speaker 2>during holiday adoption surges. This is something that is like
<v Speaker 2>a throw on to my side, drives me crazy. So
<v Speaker 2>during the holidays, shelters always see a spike and adoptions.
<v Speaker 2>So from a legal and welfare viewpoint, what risks do
<v Speaker 2>you see with that trend.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's a challenge, right, because shelters want animals to
<v Speaker 5>move out because at least they have a good chance,
<v Speaker 5>one hopes of a successful outcome outside of the shelter,
<v Speaker 5>particularly when we're talking about open admission shelters that are
<v Speaker 5>constantly capacity and really struggling to manage that population. On
<v Speaker 5>the other hand, we certainly know that there are a
<v Speaker 5>lot of people who impulse adopt animals during holidays at
<v Speaker 5>the end of the year, around Christmas, and that a
<v Speaker 5>lot of those animals may come back to us, you know,
<v Speaker 5>in the next month to a year, when people realize
<v Speaker 5>that maybe they haven't thought through that decision.
<v Speaker 2>That's what bothers me, the fact that they al said
<v Speaker 2>they'll adopt, you know, it's puppy and a kitten if
<v Speaker 2>they grow up, any dogs and cats, and people don't
<v Speaker 2>think it through about the dedication, the expense, the fact
<v Speaker 2>that you know, cats scratch things. You know, people they
<v Speaker 2>just think, you know, oh, my little daughter, my little
<v Speaker 2>son wants a little cat, or I'm bored, I want
<v Speaker 2>a cat, little cat, and they don't think it through.
<v Speaker 2>And I just think it's true for the cat to
<v Speaker 2>have to go or the dog they think they're gone
<v Speaker 2>and forever home. Then they're going back. And sometimes this
<v Speaker 2>happens multiple times, but it seems to definitely beg around
<v Speaker 2>the holidays.
<v Speaker 5>You're absolutely right, and I think the best thing that
<v Speaker 5>shelters can do is to try to educate owners or
<v Speaker 5>adopters and make sure that to the best of the
<v Speaker 5>shelter's ability, these people appear to have really thought through
<v Speaker 5>It's one of the challenges with adoptions that like pet
<v Speaker 5>stores around the holidays, and I think some shelters actually
<v Speaker 5>decide not to do those because it's so easy for
<v Speaker 5>someone to impulse adopt at a store, as opposed to
<v Speaker 5>actually thinking, yes, I want an animal and making it
<v Speaker 5>considered choice. I'm actually going to the shelter to do that.
<v Speaker 5>This is one more step to try to reduce that impulse.
<v Speaker 5>You know, theoretically shelters have adoption contracts, but I think
<v Speaker 5>there are a lot of challenges to trying to enforce those.
<v Speaker 5>And at the end of the day, we don't want
<v Speaker 5>to try to force families to keep animals they don't
<v Speaker 5>want that they're not going to care for. So it's
<v Speaker 5>not really a good legal avenue to try to stop
<v Speaker 5>people from returning. It's more about educational on the front end.
<v Speaker 2>Right right, education on the fun end and have them
<v Speaker 2>think it through. I know some shelters have you, you know,
<v Speaker 2>complete a form and then you cannot adopt out that
<v Speaker 2>same day you have to come back.
<v Speaker 5>Yes, that's a fantastic method to try to make sure
<v Speaker 5>that people are serious. It's one that some shelders don't
<v Speaker 5>use when they are usually at such high capacity and
<v Speaker 5>they desperately need the space. But to your point, if
<v Speaker 5>you're making space today, but you know that there's a
<v Speaker 5>good chance or adoptions are going to fail and they're
<v Speaker 5>going to come back you in a couple months, that's
<v Speaker 5>not really a good solution at the end of the day.
<v Speaker 2>No, definitely not. I told you what infuriates me, what
<v Speaker 2>infuriates you about when people are gifting puppies and kittens
<v Speaker 2>during the holidays.
<v Speaker 5>I think the thing that's most troublesome to me is
<v Speaker 5>the surprise gifts of animals. No one should ever receive
<v Speaker 5>a puppy, a kitten, or even like adult animal as
<v Speaker 5>a surprise gift. I mean, I understand if it's a
<v Speaker 5>small child, that's a different thing. But we have a
<v Speaker 5>lot of people who come to our shelter saying, I
<v Speaker 5>want to adopt a cat for my mom. Your mom
<v Speaker 5>needs to come and pick that animal out. I think
<v Speaker 5>people forget that when we're talking about cats, it's, you know,
<v Speaker 5>hopefully a fifteen to twenty plus year commitment, and dogs
<v Speaker 5>it's hopefully at least a ten year commitment. And so
<v Speaker 5>those are not things that should be sprung upon someone
<v Speaker 5>as a surprise. Those animal human bonds are really important
<v Speaker 5>and really individual and people need to respect that. Yes,
<v Speaker 5>animals are legally property, but they are very different in
<v Speaker 5>going and buying your mom a teav for Christmas, and
<v Speaker 5>they need to be treated differently, more carefully.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, And I also know that some shelters are
<v Speaker 2>even kind of adverse to adopting out the you know,
<v Speaker 2>cats to older people unless they know that there is
<v Speaker 2>somebody to take care of the cats. You know, somebody
<v Speaker 2>that wants to adopt a had that's eighty ninety. What's
<v Speaker 2>going to happen if scofferd It's something happens to the person.
<v Speaker 2>So they want people to really think it through. So
<v Speaker 2>something happens to you, is there someone else in the
<v Speaker 2>family that's going to take care of this, you know,
<v Speaker 2>your cat.
<v Speaker 5>I think that's a really important point too. It occurred
<v Speaker 5>to me to say one thing because on the earlier topic,
<v Speaker 5>the shelter that I work for, for example, we will
<v Speaker 5>not adopt out if someone says it's a gift. So
<v Speaker 5>that's one way I think shelters can combat that. But
<v Speaker 5>to your point about you know, adopting to people who
<v Speaker 5>are older, I think that's a really challenging conversation to have,
<v Speaker 5>because on one hand, I think we want to really
<v Speaker 5>be clear that shelters are not discriminating as people based
<v Speaker 5>on their age. I mean, realistically, any of us could
<v Speaker 5>be hit by a bus tomorrow, ranks, or we might
<v Speaker 5>have underlying health problems. The same time, you were absolutely
<v Speaker 5>right to recognize as a practical reality that when people
<v Speaker 5>are adopting, you know, a very young animal that hopefully
<v Speaker 5>will live for a decade or two, that planning for
<v Speaker 5>the care of the animals and really important. And I
<v Speaker 5>think this is pretty common, or it should be common
<v Speaker 5>with other types of animals for instance, like certain turtles parrots,
<v Speaker 5>like they frequently outlive their owners because they have a
<v Speaker 5>long lifespan. But I think you're right that we need
<v Speaker 5>to have greater conversations about what is your plan for
<v Speaker 5>this animal so it does have a safety net if
<v Speaker 5>something does happen to an owner.
<v Speaker 2>Right, So it's just planning. It just makes sense, just planning.
<v Speaker 2>So right, Okay, we're going to take a break. I'm
<v Speaker 2>going to be right.
<v Speaker 5>Back, real people, real stories.
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<v Speaker 2>Welcome everyone, We're talking to Sherry Hines, professor of law
<v Speaker 2>specializing in animal welfare. Okay, here's another topic I wanted
<v Speaker 2>to talk to you about. What are the dangers of
<v Speaker 2>no kill shelter branding and their legal implications. So, for example,
<v Speaker 2>no kill is really powerful in this shelter world. But
<v Speaker 2>can shelters really claim to be no kill or are
<v Speaker 2>there exceptions other than you know, a cat passing away,
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately is not killed. It could be that there's some
<v Speaker 2>cats that are sick and that are going to pass away.
<v Speaker 2>That's not the same as killed. But what about those
<v Speaker 2>shelters that are no kill? Do they have certain legal
<v Speaker 2>implications that they have to follow so that you know,
<v Speaker 2>if you're going there to adopt, no cats are euthanized.
<v Speaker 2>It's just that's you know, how they work.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think this is probably one of the most important,
<v Speaker 5>if not the most important conversations that's happening in the
<v Speaker 5>animal rescue world right now. So I really appreciate you
<v Speaker 5>asking me about it. I think the first thing to
<v Speaker 5>say to kind of the question you just asked is
<v Speaker 5>there's no legal designation of no kill. Certainly no official
<v Speaker 5>legal designation, but what we all have kind of established
<v Speaker 5>in the community that it means is that a rescue
<v Speaker 5>group or a shelter doesn't euthanize more than ten percent
<v Speaker 5>of its population at any given year. And it makes
<v Speaker 5>sense for those of you who are listening who are
<v Speaker 5>upset to hear that they do have this ten percent
<v Speaker 5>google room. It makes sense because there are times when
<v Speaker 5>rescue groups, despite their best efforts, do need to euthanize
<v Speaker 5>an animal. For instance, an animal that is you know,
<v Speaker 5>horribly ill, you know, has cancer, even though it's an
<v Speaker 5>end of the life euthanasia, if they're properly recording the
<v Speaker 5>outcomes for their animals, it is still considered a euthanasia. Additionally,
<v Speaker 5>sometimes rescue groups take on animals with really severe behavioral issues,
<v Speaker 5>and despite everyone's best at their efforts at training or medication, whatever,
<v Speaker 5>this animal you know, maybe is bitten too many folks.
<v Speaker 5>We even had a cat, believe it or not, that
<v Speaker 5>was too aggressive and that would attack people, especially if
<v Speaker 5>a cat's declaude right. So it's just one of those
<v Speaker 5>situations where there does need to be some little room
<v Speaker 5>for organizations when they have animals that they just can't
<v Speaker 5>safely continue to house or adopt out. But I think
<v Speaker 5>the bigger problem is that we really shouldn't be using
<v Speaker 5>the words kill or no kill to describe shelters or
<v Speaker 5>rescue groups. And I agree with you. It's a very
<v Speaker 5>powerful term. And the reason they do use it is
<v Speaker 5>because factually it's true, right they uthianize less than ten percent,
<v Speaker 5>but also because they know the public will support no
<v Speaker 5>kill shelters or rescue groups before they will support kill
<v Speaker 5>shelters or groups because of a perception that you know
<v Speaker 5>the shelters, you know the animals are going to die
<v Speaker 5>the shelter, or other other concerns people have.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Lana Claire, by one thing, I don't agree that
<v Speaker 2>aggressive cats should be killed. I know that some cats
<v Speaker 2>will be excessively aggressive once they are declawed, especially baiting,
<v Speaker 2>which is what most people think of when they say
<v Speaker 2>my cat's aggressive. Cat's biting. And that's when cats are
<v Speaker 2>declawed because they have no other way of defending themselves.
<v Speaker 2>So and then when you mentioned the ten percent, it
<v Speaker 2>seems like I guess in generalizing the no killed ten
<v Speaker 2>percent are cats and dogs that are there's a small
<v Speaker 2>chance of them making it once they're adopted, they're sick
<v Speaker 2>or they're extremely aggressive. I even had a situation in
<v Speaker 2>my family member adopted a dog, but it wasn't I
<v Speaker 2>don't recall they went to it. They went to a shelter.
<v Speaker 2>This was years ago, and the dog was from and
<v Speaker 2>I know we're catituted, but this is a dog story
<v Speaker 2>you guys can relate. So this dog was adopted from
<v Speaker 2>the streets of I think Puerto Rico during a hurricane.
<v Speaker 2>The dog had never been in a home. The dog
<v Speaker 2>literally bit through I don't even know how he did it,
<v Speaker 2>a metal cage, chewed up wooden blinds, and then it
<v Speaker 2>wasn't the fact that things were destroyed. It was the
<v Speaker 2>fact that this poor dog is going to be injured
<v Speaker 2>because it wasn't somebody home, you know, twenty four seven,
<v Speaker 2>but there was somebody home enough, and the dog would
<v Speaker 2>need intense, intense training. Now, the shelter I found in
<v Speaker 2>this situation because I growed my family member that shelter
<v Speaker 2>was at fault because they didn't disclose this. They wanted
<v Speaker 2>to adopt the dog out, but my family I would
<v Speaker 2>have said, this is not the dog for us, because
<v Speaker 2>we don't have the time to put in to really train.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this dog needed intense training, was never in
<v Speaker 2>a home. Actually, the dog went nuts, broke through a
<v Speaker 2>metal you know. Was they were great training the dog
<v Speaker 2>create train, chewed up wooden blinds. Then they broke through
<v Speaker 2>again and chewed something else, and they feared for the
<v Speaker 2>dog's safety, so they brought the dog back. I mean,
<v Speaker 2>that's an extreme situation, and I normally would go nuts
<v Speaker 2>on a situation like this. If you know, to my family,
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to say, well, we adopted, but we returned.
<v Speaker 2>But in this case, the shelter should have disclosed this.
<v Speaker 5>That's right, And I think that's the pressure, right no
<v Speaker 5>kill shelters want to adopt out animals, and everybody of
<v Speaker 5>course gets into this because you want to save animals.
<v Speaker 5>But the reality is that there are some animals that
<v Speaker 5>just really cannot safely be maintained in a house. And
<v Speaker 5>so I think what I really want to emphasize to
<v Speaker 5>your listeners is that instead of saying kill or no kill,
<v Speaker 5>what is more helpful is to think about open and
<v Speaker 5>take facilities versus closed and take facilities. So to be clear,
<v Speaker 5>I think there's value on both sides, Like we need
<v Speaker 5>all of these organizations.
<v Speaker 2>Can you clarify the difference.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So, a closed intake facility or rescue group is
<v Speaker 5>a group that chooses what animals come into their care
<v Speaker 5>so they can select them. They can deliberately, if they
<v Speaker 5>so choose, pick animals that are younger, friendlier, healthier of
<v Speaker 5>desirable breeds, more adoptable. Then open intake facilities which are
<v Speaker 5>ones that commonly have a contract with a local government
<v Speaker 5>or they are in fact a government run shelter, and
<v Speaker 5>they exist to take in every single animal, at least
<v Speaker 5>of a certain species right that needs to come into
<v Speaker 5>a shelter. And a lot of people disparage the open
<v Speaker 5>intake shelters because of necessity, they do have to perform euthanasia,
<v Speaker 5>whether that's because a dog got hit on the road
<v Speaker 5>and desperately needs to be euthanized for humane reasons, or
<v Speaker 5>whether that's because they are overflowing with animals and they
<v Speaker 5>don't have the space and you can't humanly warehouse animals indefinitely.
<v Speaker 5>But those open intake shelters are incredibly important. I think
<v Speaker 5>what the data shows is that if animals don't have
<v Speaker 5>a place to come in, then that's where we have
<v Speaker 5>lots of roaming feral animals. At here where I live,
<v Speaker 5>we had a dog pack, just a roaming group of
<v Speaker 5>dogs that nobody cared for, that attacked to an older
<v Speaker 5>couple and mauled them to death. Oh my god. So
<v Speaker 5>there are very real harms to having large numbers of
<v Speaker 5>animals roaming because animals their owners didn't have a place
<v Speaker 5>to take them, or concerned citizens didn't have a place
<v Speaker 5>to take them, even if it's just concerns about rabies
<v Speaker 5>and the spread of disease, right and so, open and
<v Speaker 5>take facilities give people the ability to bring that stray
<v Speaker 5>dog or that stray cat, or even I'm a terrible person,
<v Speaker 5>right and I took these animals in and I just
<v Speaker 5>don't want them anymore because they have feleaves or whatever.
<v Speaker 5>You know, I'm not trying to pass judgment, but just
<v Speaker 5>you know, you've decided you don't like animals, you don't
<v Speaker 5>want these anymore, and you want someone else to take
<v Speaker 5>responsibility for them. Shelters exist because at the end of
<v Speaker 5>the day, it is better for someone to have a
<v Speaker 5>place to bring these animals where they can get humane care,
<v Speaker 5>then to have them abandoned or mistreated or God forbid,
<v Speaker 5>you know, actually abused or starved, et cetera, in homes
<v Speaker 5>where they're not wanted.
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely agree, because I think cats are more likely
<v Speaker 2>to be well, I don't know. I don't know whether
<v Speaker 2>cats are more likely to be abandoned or dogs, but
<v Speaker 2>I mean one of my cats was abandoned and that's
<v Speaker 2>how I got Dennis, my first cat. I think people
<v Speaker 2>are more likely to think that, you know, the cat
<v Speaker 2>can survive out, you know, outside, like so many outdoor
<v Speaker 2>cats and little feral cat communities.
<v Speaker 5>You're absolutely right. I think it's just more socially acceptable,
<v Speaker 5>at least in the South and Georgia where I live,
<v Speaker 5>for cats to be allowed to roam at large and
<v Speaker 5>for dogs to be contained. Although I will say I
<v Speaker 5>technically live in a pretty rural county where there are
<v Speaker 5>a lot of people who own you know, ten acres
<v Speaker 5>or they have farms, and they do allow dogs to roam.
<v Speaker 5>The downside of that is that roaming dogs lead to carrecks,
<v Speaker 5>They lead to small pet animals being killed because those
<v Speaker 5>dogs naturally have a prey drive, right you know. And
<v Speaker 5>of course we see these larger risks of feral dogs
<v Speaker 5>packing up. But there's all sorts of negative outcomes that
<v Speaker 5>can happen by animals running at large, And so the
<v Speaker 5>real issue is not the open and take shelter or
<v Speaker 5>what people brand is the kill shelter. They are not
<v Speaker 5>the bad people, right. They did not get into this
<v Speaker 5>work because they want to euthanize animals. The real problem
<v Speaker 5>is that we have a serious pet overpopulation problem in
<v Speaker 5>the United States, especially in the South, and we don't
<v Speaker 5>have laws that require speynouter and so people are allowed
<v Speaker 5>to irresponsibly breed their animals and then basically dump them
<v Speaker 5>either like literally outside dump them to be someone else's
<v Speaker 5>problem or to pass away, or they take them to
<v Speaker 5>the animal shelter, which is a better choice of course,
<v Speaker 5>but it's still a huge negative impact on the taxpayers.
<v Speaker 5>A county that Lisa Milett, who's now the state director
<v Speaker 5>of Animal Fair and Vermont. She and I've been working
<v Speaker 5>with Takab County here in Georgia, and they they estimate
<v Speaker 5>if they spent eleven million dollars last year on caring
<v Speaker 5>for just unwanted animals in their shelter system, and that
<v Speaker 5>doesn't count capital expenses. So I think people don't realize
<v Speaker 5>what a huge economic burden it is on governments trying
<v Speaker 5>to manage these problems.
<v Speaker 2>It is, and there's a lot of resources for spay
<v Speaker 2>and neuters, so it should just be done. Okay, we
<v Speaker 2>have another topic, so let's talk about First Amendment issues
<v Speaker 2>in public comments and online spaces. So how does the
<v Speaker 2>First Amendment apply with regards to shelters?
<v Speaker 5>Sure, so, as a general principle, the First Amendment protects
<v Speaker 5>people's right to speak freely about almost any topic. So
<v Speaker 5>they want to speak about and where it happens and
<v Speaker 5>I should sorry, let me back that up. As a
<v Speaker 5>general principle of the First Amendment protects in individual's rights
<v Speaker 5>to speak about just about any topic they want to
<v Speaker 5>s speak about from interference by the government as a
<v Speaker 5>general rule or some employers. Right. So the reason that
<v Speaker 5>it interacts with shelters is that shelters are commonly and
<v Speaker 5>by this I'm referring to those open intake shelters are
<v Speaker 5>commonly government run facilities. So if you have a shelter
<v Speaker 5>that is a government entity, then they have to follow
<v Speaker 5>all the same rules protections for individuals related to the
<v Speaker 5>First Amendment. And where that most commonly comes into play
<v Speaker 5>is imagine you have a shelter that is struggling, doesn't
<v Speaker 5>have enough resources, they have too many animals. Volunteers are
<v Speaker 5>upset with how things are being managed understandably, and volunteers
<v Speaker 5>begin posting on that shelter of social media page or
<v Speaker 5>on the government's social media page, demanding action, you know,
<v Speaker 5>talking about the bad things that they alleged or happening
<v Speaker 5>at the shelter. You might imagine that a government employee's
<v Speaker 5>first instinct might be to hide those or delete those
<v Speaker 5>posts because they're negative. Unfortunately, the First Amendment as a
<v Speaker 5>general rule doesn't allow them to do that, or maybe
<v Speaker 5>just say fortunately, right, we want people to be able
<v Speaker 5>to speak when the government creates what we would call
<v Speaker 5>a limited public forum where they can do that, and
<v Speaker 5>social media accounts are such a forum. So for those
<v Speaker 5>who are living in communities where maybe there is some
<v Speaker 5>tension and you're trying to speak up about issues that
<v Speaker 5>you see and trying to affect change, I think one
<v Speaker 5>thing to remember is that the First Amendment does protect
<v Speaker 5>that kind of speech. Now, I will say it gets
<v Speaker 5>a little bit more complicated if you are in a
<v Speaker 5>government employee who wants to speak up about concerns, is
<v Speaker 5>that's outside of my scope today?
<v Speaker 2>I think in these days you have to be careful
<v Speaker 2>whatever you say, because there's I mean, more than ever
<v Speaker 2>my personal opinion, and I'm not going to get political,
<v Speaker 2>but there seems to be more frivolous lawsuits than ever
<v Speaker 2>and settling to that have nothing to do with what
<v Speaker 2>is right or wrong. It's just it'll be cheaper to
<v Speaker 2>just settle. So let's just settle just a lot of
<v Speaker 2>frivolous lawsuits. So do you think the shelters should just
<v Speaker 2>restrict people from social you know, media comments, because there's
<v Speaker 2>a lot that gets twisted out there with social media.
<v Speaker 5>Also. Yeah, the general advice, and I can't give it
<v Speaker 5>any legal advice, but the general rule is that if
<v Speaker 5>you are an organization, particularly government organization, that's going to
<v Speaker 5>create a social media page, which are fundamentally designed to
<v Speaker 5>allow interaction with the community, you do need to allow
<v Speaker 5>them to post just about anything that they choose to post.
<v Speaker 5>There are some limits, like they can't post pornography, you know,
<v Speaker 5>but you'd be surprised even hate speech is actually protected
<v Speaker 5>by the First Amendment. So the best advice that I've
<v Speaker 5>ever heard is, either if you're that uncomfortable with the
<v Speaker 5>public possibly making comments, then don't have the social media
<v Speaker 5>page at all, or at least disable the feed. But
<v Speaker 5>then that's what it defeats the purpose of having the
<v Speaker 5>social media account to begin with, right, So I think
<v Speaker 5>the better approach is to sort of try to counter
<v Speaker 5>things with information. Right if someone posts something that's negative,
<v Speaker 5>you can respond and say, thank you so much for
<v Speaker 5>this bringing this concern to our attention. Can we have
<v Speaker 5>a private conversation with you or we'll send you a
<v Speaker 5>private message to discuss this further, Because that way, at
<v Speaker 5>least you're showing that your responsive, that you are paying
<v Speaker 5>attention to the community. And maybe you don't have the
<v Speaker 5>best answers right now, or maybe you are working through
<v Speaker 5>some challenging things, but you're trying to be accountable to
<v Speaker 5>your community and you're trying to make improvements. I think
<v Speaker 5>what we have seen here in Athens is that your
<v Speaker 5>volunteer community and those people who are most concerned can
<v Speaker 5>also be your most powerful advocates. So I would encourage
<v Speaker 5>shelters to think more about trying to work with advocates,
<v Speaker 5>even if understandably advocates can sometimes be a little bit
<v Speaker 5>too dramatic. I think it's probably the best way to
<v Speaker 5>desgrab that ter be a little bit unprofessional in their communications,
<v Speaker 5>but working with them is always the better outcome in
<v Speaker 5>my experience, if your goal is to help the animals, right,
<v Speaker 5>these are people who are coming at it because they care,
<v Speaker 5>not because they're bad actors. And I think that's an
<v Speaker 5>important thing for governments to remember.
<v Speaker 2>Right. So inconclusion, because we're almost out of time. So
<v Speaker 2>in conclusion, if you could recommend one legal change. Now
<v Speaker 2>we're heard globally about you're based in Georgia, but animal
<v Speaker 2>welfare we're mostly talking about, probably the US, where most
<v Speaker 2>of our listeners are. So in conclusion, if you could
<v Speaker 2>make one legal change that would improve animal welfare in
<v Speaker 2>the US, what would that be.
<v Speaker 5>Unquestionably, it's mandatory space hooter.
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's what I was thinking.
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I don't want to want to recognize that
<v Speaker 5>there may be need to be exceptions, like an animal
<v Speaker 5>that for medical reasons can't be spade, a neutered, or
<v Speaker 5>a legitimate reputable breeder. Right. I'm not trying to get
<v Speaker 5>rid of, you know, the wonderful breeds that we have
<v Speaker 5>in the United States and elsewhere, but mandatory spain neuter
<v Speaker 5>is the absolute best way to address peedover population, and
<v Speaker 5>that is the number one problem for animal welfare in
<v Speaker 5>the United States. What I always like to tell people
<v Speaker 5>is that pet overpopulation, the way we currently address it
<v Speaker 5>is like bailing out a sinking chip over and over
<v Speaker 5>and over again. We cannot adopt our way out of
<v Speaker 5>this problem. So the best way to do it is
<v Speaker 5>to resolve it at the source, which is to plug
<v Speaker 5>that leaking boat by making sure that people have to
<v Speaker 5>span youard of their pets so we don't continue to
<v Speaker 5>have this over overwhelming pet overpopulation problem.
<v Speaker 2>So Jari, thank you so much for coming onctitude. Where
<v Speaker 2>can people find out more information about the legalities of
<v Speaker 2>involving animal welfare?
<v Speaker 5>Sure, So at the University of Georgia Law School, we
<v Speaker 5>have what's called the Pause Clinic, which is the Practical
<v Speaker 5>Animal Welfare Skills and that is a great sort of
<v Speaker 5>starting base to find some information and will very soon
<v Speaker 5>have a series of videos. There's a couple that are
<v Speaker 5>already posted that describe a lot of the national challenges
<v Speaker 5>that we're dealing with related to animal welfare. That website
<v Speaker 5>is https colon slash slash Pause dot Law dot UGA
<v Speaker 5>dot edu. And if you'd like me to say it
<v Speaker 5>without that.
<v Speaker 2>So pause dot law dot U, g a UGA dot edu.
<v Speaker 2>That's right, okay, and I'm pretty sure we can have
<v Speaker 2>that link on the page for this episode. Again, thank
<v Speaker 2>you so much for coming on Caatitude, and thank you
<v Speaker 2>for all you do for the animals.
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for having me.
<v Speaker 2>I hope everyone enjoyed this episode so informative. I want
<v Speaker 2>to thank Sherry Hines for coming on Catitude and sharing
<v Speaker 2>a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much. Thanks to
<v Speaker 2>my cats all Rescues, Dennis, Charlotte and Mollie. Thanks to
<v Speaker 2>my listeners of Tatitude. I appreciate your listenership so much,
<v Speaker 2>and of course a huge thank you to my producer,
<v Speaker 2>Mark Winter for working his magic and making every show
<v Speaker 2>sounds incredible. Now, remember who's the attitude have
<v Speaker 4>Let's Talk Pets every week on demand only on petlight
<v Speaker 4>Radio dot com.