WrestleMagic: Defectors That Changed the Ring

Hello, listeners, Welcome to the ww podcast. It is me Rocky Tea
here with just a credible and my number one guy, the gardener, Michael
Gross. Gentlemen, we are finally here together again. It's been a long
quarter of the first quarter of the year for me. I know I haven't
been around much, but I'm glad I was able to find the time to
finally get here with y'all. There's been so much going on and wrestling over
the last few months, in the last few years, with guys jumping ship
and defecting, we thought we want to talk a bit about it. So
first let me get my guys. Say hello to everybody. Michael, what's
going on. I'm living my best life. I'm here in Louisville. I'm
just talking to some of my best like co hosts that I can have in
life, and it makes me feel like really great. I wish my nephew
Maverick was here, and I wish Methemis Mark was here, and like everybody
Brian, Michael Patrick, all of our co hosts from Wressell Magic, I
wish we're here right now. But you know, honestly, like it's a
great thing that we get to talk to PJ because he is a retired star
who's like really happy or semi retired star. Sorry, I'm not talking for
you, so you know, I just I love our moments that we can
have to record, and we do have like a lot of moments, guys,
that we have in life, and like I've done a lot of things
with Everybody knows that I'm in the oldest girl named Jennifer. We all know
it. We've all seen pictures. I'm a very happy human being that takes
me away a little bit from my content that I can create for everybody.
However, with that being that, I mean Rocky, you you have missus
Rocky T. Justin PJ, you have Jill. You know, I actually
got to hear her voice the other day when I try to call you.
It's really awesome that, like we all have our counterpart. So it's just
one of those things that we haven't had a chance for a long time to
actually get together because we have real life. So I kind of miss like
other people and and and the other people that we cannot be with today.
And I just want to shout out to everybody who listens and wants to contribute
a little bit more it's okay. It's okay to have a life you and
you have people who counter your life. Congratulations, that's great, So cool,
mister p J. Palaco. Yes, yeah, no, I'm I'm
very excited. I'm happy to be here with you guys. This is something
I really enjoy when we get together. It's always a great conversation, something
that I really treasure. Uh. And also, you know, I'm very
excited about you know, we're only a couple of weeks away from WrestleMania Historic
WrestleMania. I will be there live in Philadelphia for that weekend. I'm getting
my stuff together for that and so yeah, there's a lot of good stuff
going on. So I'm just again, I'm very grateful, happy to be
here with you guys, Rocky Michael of course, you know, you guys
always hold it down. I'm just happy to be part of the crew.
So thank you very much for having me. Well, welcome back everybody,
Uh you guys, welcome to shout out to the rest of the crew,
Mark and Maverick and Scully, y'all guys putting some materia out there for the
rest of Magic Name. I have been swamped with more responsibilities at work,
full time, school, taking on some more responsibilities in life with families.
It's been a lot for me, but glad to be here again. Michael,
I know I've been out of touch. I'm sorry. It's just I
really I don't even have time to watch wrestling live anymore, like we're always
watching it on delay. The only the only live show out the got caught
this year to last week with the Rocket tea. Yeah, so he can't
see anything, but he was come on, yeah, yeah, so well
we had tickets for months, but that's the only time and I just you
know, had to cut out the time to actually get out there and do
it. And it was worth it. So let's go ahead and get into
it. There's been a lot going on the last couple of years with guys
Championship from w W to a W and you know, throughout the n d's
and from Japan. The biggest news of the year was seeing Punk jumping over.
You know how that pretty much turned out. You know, his return
to a W had a significant impact on resting business in several ways. When
he finally returned to rest in a couple of years ago, and that's really
what we're here to talk about. Is the guys who changed the ring,
the factors who changed the ring. Never they jump ship to another company,
Did they have an immediate impact long lasting impact. Well, the guys that
were gonna touch on did with seeing Punk with he finally returned. As soon
as he returned, he boosted ratings, boosted ticket sales. It started power
drew in a considerable amount of viewership to a w programming, resulted in higher
TV ratings and increased ticket sales for live events. It was increased competition in
the ring. His return intensified the competition between the AW stars, providing wrestling
fans with an alternative again to wrestling. He heightened fans excitement. He editated
the talent in storelines that he was in in AW, and he put over
some of the talent and gave back to the business while he was there,
and he expanded reach and media coverage. It doesn't matter where this man goes,
whether you're talking about him in a good, lighter bad, he's he's
changing the ring no matter where he goes. Is this true? DJ I'm
gonna give I would agree he's my twin. Yeah he's a little bit younger,
but yeah, he's my twin. And to be honest with you,
I mean he is a great in ring worker and his heir to the throne
and people are gonna hate me is Finn Balor, but they just won't give
him what he needs to have. The fact is, you wouldn't have all
Elite if you wouldn't have the Bullet Club. The Bull Club was formed by
Finn Balor when he was Prince Devin, and that was an absence of a
presence of a person who is going to be the voice of the voiceless,
and it was the voice of the indies, the voice of the something different.
Okay, That's why I thought it was really funny on the first night
that that you know, Punk cups back. They had like a little handshake
between the two of them. But I do believe that like see him Punk
no matter where he is what he does in wrestling MMA. I mean he
even said he's like, yeah, I sucked at it, but you own
it, you live it. He still puts asses in seats and he sells
out more stadiums than a lot of people do right now, and a lot
of you know he's he. You put see him Punk on the marquee and
you put the mizz on the Marquee. Well, I think I know who's
siling the place out and who's the b market, So you know, it
all comes down to I really think that there's a lot of lot. There's
a ton of gas in this tank left. And if we get two great
years and then he retires over to any kind of commentary or something like that,
I'd be happy with that. But that is like a big thing.
Like when he came back that was big. It was big. When he
came back in twenty twenty one on AEW that was landmark like huge. Now,
while this is big, and I want to talk to you about this,
PJ, I also want to talk to you about what do you think
was the biggest when you were growing up, because we're about the same age,
Like the biggest thing that you saw on TV? Like, Holy biscuits,
this person's here. Wow, Well that's I mean, that's a loaded
he I'll just really quickly give my comments or you know, real quickly,
just talk about CM punk. I mean, he's he's a once in a
lifetime kind of a person and he did something that's very smart. He went
away for a very long time and I think he realized and as we all
realized, if he's not going to come back now when And I think a
lot of people are in that situation. I think Adam Copeland was in that
situation, many others. I mean, you can go up and down the
list. I don't want to spend too much time on that, but you
know, now was the time for him because he's I believe he's my age,
or maybe a bit younger. I think he's forty eight. I'm fifty.
So you know, if you don't do it now, when, So
it was a perfect time for him. And you know, it's like that
last of the generation, you know, and people want to see that they
show up for it. And what was the second half of the question.
I'm sorry that you wanted me to answer about other people coming that mattered during
my era. Yeah, well let's let's let's talk about like our like you
were at it. You were Aldough at that point, and so we have
everybody trying to like w W could pay them. They could use them the
right way, but they could pay them. So what was it in your
head that you saw somebody and you're like, whoa they left? Yeah,
or a moment that you're like whoa, you know, like wow. For
me, it was the it wash And this is going to be sound very
basic, but it was when Hulk Hogan left WWF and when you know,
probably the most historic run in that company's history. You know, he started
everything when he beat the Iron Cheek in nineteen eighty three for the WWF title,
all the way up until nineteen ninety two or so, when he finally
showed up in WCW. To me, that was a game changer. You
know, it really just kind of like, you know, it was one
of those things where I never you know, he was somebody that was so
branded and so identifiable with the WWF. It was almost weird to see him,
you know in w CW television because a they do things very differently.
They tape their television is very differently taped back then. It was just a
different presentation. So it was just very very weird but interesting. And I
thought to me that was probably the most one of the most icons of jumping
ship as far as big names go. For sure. Okay, so what
about you Rock, because I'm gonna go last on this one. So for
me, so I was I was young whenever Hugan jump and the significance of
him jumping wasn't in a paramount for me until my later teens. So for
me as a young kid, you know, ten eleven, twelve into the
attitude era, it was when Y two D White two j jump to WWF.
That was the first big one for me where I was like wow,
right and then up and then shortly after him was a big show of Paul
White. So those two were the two ones from my childhood where I was
like, Wow, okay, like this is like war, like really the
Monday Night Wars that was. That's what resonates with me is those two jumps
for the Monday Night Wars that they get me so and then it proved,
it proves that those two guys were smart enough to make the jump, and
they had legendary Hall of Fame careers and they're still at it, right,
But those were the two for me. So I'm gonna go back into syndication.
So I remember, like PJ, You'll know a lot about this,
the fact that like when somebody was leaving a territory and I get to watch
the death of the territories as much as you got to go into the death
of the territories. It's a sucky thing, but it's truth. You got
to see like fabulous superstars and then all of a sudden they would show up
on one of the Big two and they would be repackaged as somebody else,
but you'd always see them doing the favors on the way out. Am I
correct, yes, sir, And so I just remember like seeing people like
doing the doing the favors, like going and stuff like that. And then
I remember watching when the nw A and W c urged kind of thing,
there was no Ric Flair, and then Rick Flair showing up and it was
on a Saturday morning show, Bobby Heenan holding the NWA belt, Rick Flair
next to him and saying, this is the true champion of the world.
This is the actual leading age. And Bobby, that's one thing, Like
there's three people who can cut a promo on you that will cut glass.
It's Bobby Heenan, Paul Hayman, and Jim Cornett. And he basically said
like, this is the true champion. And then they had to digitize it
after that because it wasn't approved by the NWA, which barely exists at this
point. Sorry, but it's true. And so with this all happening.
That to me was the first major defection. I knew he wasn't on TV,
but he did not do favors. He I mean, hughs Worth player,
he was the champion. He did not do any favors. He had
a dispute. So that dispute was bigger than anything else. So you take
the guy off TV for one two months and then all of a sudden he
shows up on the rivals company. That's a pretty big thing. But it's
more than a big thing when he has the championship belt of the other company.
So that was the first incredible defection. I think unless you guys have
something else, well, I think we mightight. I mean it's probably we
know it's regurgitated information. But I think the defection that made the wrestlers the
guaranteed money. We have to at least mention Holland Nash because those that was
major and those guys, those guys defecting the dis get in you know,
some creative control and getting that guaranteed money. That's what changed the financial side
of the rest of business, you know, forever. Actually, Rocky I
can go into specifics. Oh yeah, that'd be great. I know for
a fact, that Scott was making as Intercontinental champion. He was making about
two hundred and fifty to two hundred and seventy five thousand dollars a year to
the WWE, and Kevin Diesel at the time was making about three hundred and
fifty thousand as the top guy. And I mean business was down and people
don't remember this was before guaranteed contracts were really a thing. And in WWE,
everyone including myself, we all had the same contracts. It was we
signed a three year deal, all of us. And you know, if
you go on YouTube, you could look at you could ask the question and
they'll say the same thing. You got offered ten dates per year at a
minimum of two hundred dollars per date, and the rest was all incentive based,
so you really had no guarantee other than two thousand dollars a year at
ten appearances. Ten appearances are two hundred dollars. The rest was incentive.
So that's what Scott was making and that's what Kevin was making. So when
they jumped ship, they went from making you know, between two hundred and
fifty and three hundred fifty thousand dollars a year to eight hundred thousand to nine
hundred thousand dollars a year, respectively. And that's when the game changed in
that aspect, you know, because that guaranteed money started to matter. The
business started to change, and it was it was a big deal, you
know, because you know, it's when you're on the road as much as
we were in the WWE, and you're, you know again, you're you're
you're calling home because you're on the road so much, and this is pre
cell phone media, and your wife's opening up your checks and she's telling you,
oh, we only got two hundred dollars for Cleveland, and you're like
what, you know, It's like every every check was different, every show
was because it was dependent on you know, what was the ticket sales for
Cleveland, Well it was three hundred thousand dollars, which is a great house.
But then you got to divide it amongst the boys and who was the
main event, who was the opening match. For an opening match, I
would get maybe five hundred dollars for that Cleveland show, where the main event
would maybe get two thousand dollars. So it was that kind of a scale,
So you know what I mean anyway, just just kind of trying I
would just I don't know the point of what I'm trying to say, but
I'm just trying to drop the light on great. It's absolutely great insight.
And honestly, PJ liked to you to give us as honesty is like really
honoring, it's favoring, it's it's no, I mean, it's just real.
It was just that's the real truth. And I just like to say
that because I think people, because they see stars on television, right,
they think we're millionaires. They think we have all this, you know,
and it was really not that way at all. A lot of guys.
I mean, look, it's still good money, but for the amount of
work and the amount of pressure and what we were actually doing in the grand
scheme of things, it wasn't as glamorous and it was very difficult, as
you know. And then you know, you can get into the other aspect
of why there was so much addiction and alcoholism and depression because we were always
trying to just get ahead of the game and actually, you know, you
know that the clock is ticking. You only have X amount of years to
earn a living and to hopefully get a retirement out of this, and it
just wasn't happening under the WWE way, hence the movement of guaranteed contracts for
the boys and what WCW did you know? So it all is kind of
you know it all has you know it all kind of comes around full circle.
Well, PJ I, I definitely, I definitely appreciate your honesty on
every show that we do. I never try to pull this out of you.
I I think that that means a lot to us that you trusty.
I just want to, like, I just you know, I mean you
and I like we talk, like we talk a lot, but you know,
I just want our listeners to know that, like, this is not
a fabricated thing or answer. So yes, all right, So to continue
the shoot, yes, can I well quit Michael hit Well, just because
we're right in that same era with Holland Nashville that was ninety five, right,
So, and then the reason why I'm cutting you off is because I
need you to answer this, because you're the one who told me about it,
or actually incited me about it. So people say that the mark of
the beginning of the Monday Night Wars was actually a defection that happened prior to
Holler Nash's Luger showed up on the show on Monday Night Night Trip. Now,
yes, of America, that's right, yes, But why is it
significant he was he was not truly contracted to w w E. They did
not realize that his contract had expired, and they still had him booked for
a few dates. So he walks out of like, you know, I
think it was called Structure Ned's story, like he was dressed nice. He
was dressed ice for the time. Yeah, of course, of course.
Uh. I mean, hey, I I know your old theme song.
Okay, PJ. Soon don't don't don't mess with me because I was a
big fan of prom. But so he comes out and it's like he's supposed
to be on the US Express or the Lex Express going across the United States
that nobody cares about, and he was still booked for like two or three
more dates. So they said that a lot of people backstage, now you
were there, PJ, were people going flippant or what was going on?
It was? It was really man back then. Nobody really knew we were
watching this stuff in real time. I do remember this. What I remember
is when when this started to go down, there was literally a monitor with
nitro on with full sound, like literally somebody that you know, got a
cable feed and we were watching the show as it happened. In a lot
of times, commentary was being done and we're getting into the Monday net wars
again. But like stuff was being like said, were done just in in
in come to combat. What was what they were doing, like we were
hearing it and then we would probably get it to the headsets to the people
at ringside, like they just said this shit like or excuse my language,
they just said this stuff. Let's uh, let's you know, combat it
with this stuff. So a lot of it was just very much unplanned touch
and go, you know, a lot of times we didn't realize, you
know, with these surprises and these things. It was really very it's unparalleled
of how much of a shoot or surprise style improvisational thing that it really was.
So with that being happy, so were you ever groomed by Eric Bischoff?
Me? Yeah, no, no, no, no, not directly,
No, no, not directly. You know, again, it was
never a real The only opportunity I was given, and I always say this
was in nineteen ninety seven, I was still Aldough. It was the dying
days of Aldo, and I basically went to Vince. And this was around
the summer of ninety seven. I went to Vince and I said, look,
my you know, I'm kind of coming up in my ways. I'm
becoming a good worker, good performer. This character is not you know,
it's reached its peak. I can't do anymore with it. He knew it.
We all everybody knew it. And I said, I wanted to do
something else. I didn't see the opportunities, so I asked, I still
had a year left on my contract. So I went to Stanford scheduled a
meeting with him in the old offices, Exit nine off of By ninety five,
which is Stanford, Connecticut, which the offices aren't even there anymore.
That they moved a couple exits down on the Utka offices. But I digress,
and anyways, I went to Vince's office and I said, look,
I n I appreciate it, but I would like my release. And he
said no, because Scott and Kevin had talked to me and said, look,
we can get you a deal to come down here. Now that was
through Scott and Kevin, and uh, you know, the contract tampering like
you know what I mean, I was just going through what my buddies were
saying, but I never had spoken to Bischoff or any official official person.
That being said, Vince said no to my request for my contract to be
you know, to be released for my contract. But what he did do
was send me to Memphis to Jerry Lawler's territory, and he wanted me to
learn to work as a heel and then right there he'd bring back up you
know. And this was the time. It's funny, but this was the
time Dwayne Johnson was also down there. And we all know this now from
the Young Show, but I was down there when Dwayne was down there,
and no, we did not have any interactions, you know, not that
it was like that. I mean, he was a cool kid, but
we never got really you know, hung out or anything. But it was
around that time and I spent six weeks down there and then finally Paul Hayman
offered me a gig and with Vince that you know, Paul went to Vince
and said, look, just signed the kid over to me. And that's
what happened there. But that went down well, Look you at jumping though,
I mean, we looked we like, I understand how you went from
place to place. And I've seen Scott Hall say many interviews where he thought
that you were a wasted talent and that that means a lot to me because
I was always a big fan of Scott Hall. I think that as an
in performer. And he starts actually, like people talk about Kevin Nash,
it was Scott Hall started the Monday Night Wars. It was and it was,
and he was he was the most talented out of any of those people
in the nWo when he was on his game, so brass tacks and baseball
bats when we go down to it, he he'd say, I've seen shoot
interviews where he talked about like, you know, he felt that you were
demeaned. That six xbox whatever you want to call him, was demeaned.
Sean Waltman, Uh, he thought that. And he's even talked about like
he put over on on on shows Jerry Lynn, which is a good friend
of yours. These people that you came up with that I think that he
came up with too. That we've seen in the A w A. And
these are people there are just like way too talented. You're way too talented.
Change can you wrestle, can you what can you do? And so
you know, I see that was he I think was the person that lighted
the torch for what was going to happen in defections. So let's defect Rocky
Well something that also happened during that time period that was more of a forced
affection, but I believe it also changed the ring inside and outside the ring,
and that would be the Montreal School job. This had a significance.
UH. This event had significant ramifications for the rest of the industry. A
strained relationships between Brett and the WWE, leading him to leave for rival promotion
WCW. As we all know, it also blurred the lines between kfabe and
you know reality, so as fans became more backstage politics and manipulation within the
industry. That one was big for me too, because I remember watching that
match alive and the fallout of it, and when Brett went to w W,
I honestly started watching w a little bit more. I didn't care before
when Holler and Nash went over because I was still young, but by that
time, it's ninety eight. You know, I'm eleven, I'm like full
wrestling, Like I'm fall into it. So that was the first, I
guess, the first affection that actually made me start watching wh W. So
that one, that one, because Brett was everything for young kids during that
time, right, so for me that was that was another big thing that
that really opened my eyes. Just like you said, they really opened the
eyes to a lot of fans. So in the those nineties, okapj Se,
there you are. Now you're in ECW, you're taking Ravens spot and
you're seeing everybody jump everywhere. And what did you think would be the biggest
defection that would change the game, Because I could tell you mine it would
be Undertaker going to w c W and becoming Mark Calliskin, which would have
killed business. It would have killed the business. So what do you think,
DJ? Wow, I mean that's a that's an amazing question, and
that's a great question, right yeah, I mean you really have to think
about that. I am an analyst and historian, so yeah, I know
that's that's a okay, uh, I mean this would never happen. Okay,
but let's just say that the Ringmaster never worked out, you know,
I mean, that's just that's the easy pick, because well, that's just
something I mean, I'm just saying the ring master never worked out, which
listen, I was there with Steve and I worked with him for a couple
of months, all through the summer that year of right before he broke I
think it was ninety six, maybe ninety early ninety, I don't know,
summer of ninety six, I believe where we were working house shows and he
was very, very unsure if anything was going to work for him, and
we had amazing matches, by the way, and we had a great time.
And like, if you go if you actually go back and listen,
I'm on his podcast twice, his old school podcast. But if you go
back to the first podcast I ever did with Steve Austin, he talks about
all the good times we had in the time he supplexed me. I believe
it was ten or twelve times on some tenth show in the WWE in Rhode
Island. But anyways, but if that's Steve Austin, that version of Steve
Austin never got over and maybe he went to Japan or you know what I
mean. If he never have that, that opportunity, whatever happened there with
you know, that would have been a big one that would have changed the
industry forever. So I would say that because that could have happened very easily,
dude, because it was literally like Steve took a chance, Like it
was very much a fluke that Stone Cold came to be Steve. Steve was
and I remember us talking about it on the podcast. Steve literally like he
would have these dark matches and he would have these opportunities because the camera wasn't
like it wasn't for taped for television. We were still doing syndication. Television
was not set up the way it is today. So we would do Raw
on Monday, Superstars on Tuesday, and Wrestling Challenge on Wednesdays, all syndicated
stuff. Oh god, you brought that up. Well, that's that's what.
And he he got over doing those things that were like off air.
He would kind of just get the microphone and start doing well we now know
is stone Cold and Vince started to kind of like, what's what's going on
out there? You know? But it wasn't meant for you know, never,
you know what I mean, like that kind of stuff. And but
if that didn't happen, and if that never caught on, and that could
have been, it could have easily not been heard. Well, you know
what I mean. Somebody could not have picked up on that. It could
have just fell under the radar. So yeah, it was uh you know,
that would have changed the game of pro wrestling. Really, So I
say, Steve, I feel like I should know more about this. I
think I'm just drawing to blame. But well, let's look at some of
the weird defections that we had during this Monday Night wars, like Ted to
be Nobody cared because he wasn't wrestling anymore. Nobody, Yeah, nobody cared.
The one. Yeah, well, he was already over there like it
was. It was a timeline, that was That was a defection like it
was. It was a timeline and Rick and Rick came from e c W
two straight there. That's what I want to bring up. So I talked
to Rock about this the other Yea, he is the only man to be
on three television, three promotions in one week. That was correct. So
he was he was down there with you guys in e c W, which
I don't mean to stay down there with you guys because that was and he
was living it up because he's Rick. Goddamn rude shows up to be the
enforcer for you know, d X. And then the next night he's on
next night he's on nitro. And I love the fact that he made sure
that he had a beard on raw but no, no, no, he
was cleanly shaven and Rob had a beard a night drunk just to show it
like we don't you know, we're live, We're live. Yes, yeah,
it was I love recruits, I miss recruit recru What a great dude
that guy was. Man, he was a trip dude. He was such
a he was such a cool dude, like and there was no pretentious he
was not a like a cocky dude. He was not a bad guy.
He was just a super nice but super talented guy and so much to offer,
so smart, Like, well, never that's the thing that kills me
as much as we have amazingly talented people. Maybe it's because I'm a Mark,
right, Maybe it's because I see it through my mark lens. But
we'll never get guys like that again. You know, we we get guys,
you know, we get different guys guys that are you know, smaller,
maybe not as charismatic. But here's a guy like Rick Rude, who's
six three two forty two fifty ripped a shred has you know, kind of
lived a tough life, been around the block, you know, like some
old school stuff. You know, yeah, knocked anybody out. Oh,
just a legit tough guy. But it's super nice dude and so talented and
charismatic. You won't see that today. You'll see some emo guy who's twenty
three years old, who's five to six and one hundred and fifty pounds and
he's in aw making a half a million dollars a year. Go figure.
But I think the world's got it all wrong. This is me. I'm
not stop it, digress, But it's just like we'll never What I'm trying
to say is like, we'll never see guys like that again, you know,
And it's a shame. It's a shame. It's it's wild and I
listen, and there's a reason for that. And I'm not going to go
off topic. I just want to drop this hint. So maybe we could
pick this up at another time. But back then, people got into the
business not because they were marks for the business, not because they were fans
of the business. They got into the wrestling business because hey, maybe they
were ex football players or X tough guys and they were looking for you know,
there were boundaris at a strip club, right. That seems to be
a topic that you know what I mean, A lot of guys did that,
like Scott Hall, et cetera. It's been featured on documentaries. But
you know what I'm saying, Like now you just get guys that are from
wrestling schools that are fans more like you know, you're just getting marks joining
the business, not like legit guys in life that could have been a tough
you know what i mean. It's just like a different dynamic. You'll never
see a six foot four, six foot three guy like Rick Rude with those
looks in that ability, or a Lex Luger or a Stinger, you know
what I mean, those guys all on or yeah, all those all those
cats. I don't think you'll ever get those guys again, because you know,
the way we we groom I hate say groom, but the way you
groom talent today, it's like join the wrestling school. We give everybody a
shot, and it's usually you know, the smaller guys that are into it
now, not necessarily the football player that wants a shot and needs to make
money. You know, it's more of a like, I'm a I'm a
mark for the business. Let me try to make it. You know where
back then it was like, Hey, I'm a tough guy, I'm a
I'm an ex ball player. I need a job, I need to make
money. Let's you go, you know. And I'm not saying one is
better than the other. I'm just saying it's a different dynamic. If that
makes sense. No, Ant, it does make sense. What do you
want to move to the next, Michael, Well, let's let's talk about
the nineties and the ratings war. So if PJ, we're going to put
you on spotlight on this one. So everybody's jumping back and forth. We
have Jeff Jarrett jumping back and forth. It did nothing. I hate to
say it. I love Jeff, but Jesus Christ, great performer, great,
Uh, it didn't do anything. Brett hart Luger, Like, I
guess that was the first everything. You know, then we Bischoff is doing
a lot of stuff with the Japan. Let's bring in you know, moodha
stuff like that. Let's recognize like new Japan people. Uh. And in
w w F you're there, you're you're you're you're doing Aldough. You're doing
everything you can to be in the us w A, but now you're getting
all the e c W people that they think that they can control, like
Doug Furnace and for uh Phil Levon yep, I remember, I love those
guys. You're getting like a lot of people like you're getting Rob van Dam
every once in a while, but you're still not part of it. You're
still backstage. You're still seeing a lot of stuff, and mostly from the
ECW stuff, and so we're seeing like so many jumps back and forth.
Jericho I think was more heavy. I think Jared, they always say that
Jericho's debut in the WWE was bigger than any debut in life. So what
do you think about that? H one, go ahead, rock No.
Like guys I said earlier, that was the first one for me as a
young wrestling fan that impacted me seeing another star come into w W being a
true hardcore loyal fan WW just I knew Nitro was there, but they're paying
attention to it, but when Jericho came over that it was significant for me,
and I'm sure there's a lot of Jericho fans out there that it was
significant for as well. It was pretty amazing, Like we all knew it
was gonna happen, but there's there's you're gonna know what's gonna happen is and
it's gonna be good? Or is it gonna happen and is it gonna suck?
And w w wwf. At the time, it was pretty good as
it's gonna suck and it was probably the best debut of all time. I
cannot think of a better debut. Might be subjective, but tell me,
tell me what do you think. I'll pretty much give him my my little
synopsis about that. But you're trying to pass the question or to justin there
about it? Anybody take it? Well? I mean I'll say this real
quick. The reason I in my again this is I'm just trying to go
back and you know, a long time ago. But to me, it
was all about the setup. You know, we're going into the year two
thousand. As a society, we were all kind of freaked out about you
know what happens in nineteen ninety nine when the clock witch over there? I
mean, why to j the or why two K I should say the actual
thing where you know, we thought there was going to be a virus and
all of you know, humanity as we knew it, you know, computers
and all this shit. Who knew that was a real concern at one point,
you know, the media made it out to be. Anyways, you
know, I never bought into it, but anyways, I digress. So
it was just the way they just built it. And we all knew.
This is again the the early, early early, and this has a lot
to do with it, the very early days of internet wrestling, the community,
the internet wrestling community. We all knew Jericho's contract was up. We
all knew Jericho, that was Jericho. So I think fans were very excited,
and this was kind of like the first real time we got to see
somebody on a huge scale when wrestling was at its biggest, right, we
had weeks and weeks of build with the clock and the countdown. It was
just perfectly you know what I mean. The way that that that that they
made it happen was just brilliant. It was very brilliant. And and then
of course Jericho was just you know, ready to go as always. You
know, he was always a great entertainer and a great you know figure,
and I would what should I say, just a great character, you know,
he always never short for words, never short on right and boom,
you know, and when the clock was struck down and it was just perfect,
dude, it was I mean, it didn't even no disrespect. It
didn't have to be Jericho, could have been anybody. The way they set
it up was brilliant, you know. And I'm not saying it wouldn't have
been it would have been as big, but of course, and Chris had
a lot to you know, eighty percent of it was Chris. But still
the way they did it was brilliant. The setup, it took months of
you know, the teasing, right, remember the teas. It were just
you know, we don't see that anymore. We don't get that anymore.
And that's what fans love. Listen. The only thing wrestling fans love more
than like a a you know, an amazing title change or a big,
huge match with some big gramifications is a surprised somebody jumping ship. And that's
what the we're talking about here, And you know, to me, that
was one of the biggest ones, you know, you know, because when
you know, especially somebody like Jericho who really helped create the cruiserweight division,
him Malenko, Benoit, rey Ai, uh, you know all those cats.
So let's let's talk about that for a second. Because so the big,
the big jump in the you know, the big, you know,
big thing was like Luger, Luger like who cared because he did nothing but
he was still a game, but he was you know, I get what
you're saying, yes, and you're you're right. So he shows up.
Year two, we have Padusa putting the women's belt into the garbage. Yeah.
Yeah, so and we have year three Scott Hall and weeks later Kevin
Nash. I get it, but I don't think all those defections really paid
off because two people, Scott Hall and Kevin nashvillely killed business. My brother
kf Abe like wrote the end of w c W on the last day,
it should have been Kevin Hall or excuse me, Scott Hall and Kevin nash
walking up to Shane McMahon, who was like buying it and being like,
well, we couldn't kill everybody, but you know we we basically bankrupt the
company for you. That would have been perfect. That would have been perfect,
That would have that yeah, yeah, that would have been could you
imagine it would have been perfect? Then they just smile and just like wave
bye bye, like like Tomasso Champa, like you just bye bye, yeah
yeah yeah, and we're gonna go collect paychecks say something like that, like
the complete douchebags. And I think that that that's the way it should have
ended. But anyway, getting back to defecting, So let's look at like
the mid nineties, we didn't have as much defection, like Hokan goes over
w CW because he was already working on Turn with stuff like Thunder and Paradise,
which nobody wanted to watch, right and and and guest starred a lot
of wrestlers, so we all we all knew that, like Jim Knightheart who
was in there, and bro, those those are the great days though,
where you can get like a TV deal. But you know what I mean,
like do you do? Was so much they were dying for content.
It was easy to get a gig in those days. It was it's not
even funny, you know. And that was just the HULP was just in
the right place at the right time, right, you know, because they
needed content. Cable was exploding at that time in the mid nineties, you
know, from ninety to like two thousand and one, two thousand and two
kind of pre internet, you know, cable was king and it was just
exploding. So it was just perfect storm, you know. No, you're
absolutely right, and like you as being a worker, Okay, So like
I'm thinking like ninety ninety five, like that whole era. So Cornet's doing
Smoky Mountain. Obviously, Hayman's doing everything up in ECW with Philadelphia. So
this is a whole new breath of wrestling. And of course Memphis will not
die until late nineties. No, it's still not dead. Who are you
kidding? Memphis will never die, I know, and that's where my heart
is, baby. But I mean getting back down to brass tacks and baseball
bats like all the characters h and Memphis had a great opportunity though. That's
one thing that Memphis had a great and it still does and it always will
have this spirit of you know, everybody still travels day. You know,
if you want to make yourself in this business, you always go through Memphis
to this day. You got that's the number one rule, right, and
it's a it's a beautiful thing and it's uh, look, it was six
weeks. That probably took six years out of my life. And I'm not
lying to you. I would love to go on. I would love to
have do a podcast with you guys about my six week trials and tribulations of
being in that territory of Louisville. Uh, you know, Hendersonville, Nashville,
Memphis, the whole thing, and Birmingham, all of it. Just
it was. It was a great time though. I mean now looking back
at I look it back at it very fondly, but it was very hard.
But I still think that to this day it has something beautiful to offer
to a lot of the young men and women. You know, it's really
cool still, you know. Anyways, I digress. I just wanted to
I said that three times today, but I don't want to go off on
a tangine. I have so much to say. But anyways, all right,
yeah, yeah, So we've covered a lot. We you know,
we're not, of course, not gonna be able to cover everything, but
we did get a lot of that nineties out of the way. I do
want I jump forward going to the thirty two thousands to something significant that happened.
And this is something that significant to me as well, because I had
never heard of this other promotion before, and so this man jumped, and
it was significant for me because he is actually on my Mount Rushmore and this
mess name is kurd Angle two thousand and six. There's various factors, you
know, including of course health issues and one spend more time with his family.
But when he joined TENA and Wrestling, he made a significant impact,
bringing his star power, his airbring, talent, and credibility from Doe W.
His presence helped elevate Tena's profile, attracting more viewers you know, I
e myself, and establishing the company as a legitimate alternative to doe W.
He had memorable matches and storylines during his time there in TNA. I believe,
correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't either technically the first one
inducted to Teenage's Hall of Fame. He was actually the first person to deny
going into really okay, see yeah, because his drug and alcohol issues.
Okay, but during his time there, he did contribute to the girl from
Success changing the game and absolutely that's that's whenever I was really getting into the
dirt sheets online, I was like a junior high school senior, and that's
when I was in the dirt sheet, so I knew it was happening,
and had never heard of teen A before. So I started doing some research,
started watching some videos. I discovered AJ styles, I discovered SMO with
Joe all the time and over there. So when he jumped, I remember
earning money myself to pay for TEENA pay per views because my dad was we
were already paying for WW pay per views and he didn't know. He couldn't
justify paying for it because he didn't know nobody, so I would pay for
it. I'll give him money to pay for the TEENA pay per views.
And but that was after Kurt jumped, and that was very significant. Well,
Kurt jumping, Christian jumping, it wasn't really jumping. It was you
know, w W didn't see anything in anybody, but that that wasn't like
big to me, like w CW jumping and Jeff Jarrett like going back and
forth. I mean, the guy's a millionaire for a reason. He was
the son of a promoter. He knows how to find loopholes and contracts.
So PJ tell me I'm wrong, but he'll find he'll he'll find the best
best way for him to get a paid he will. But here's here's one
thing about you. Know, I gotta say this quick, and I may
have said this to you before. If not, I'm going to say it
now because I think it's important to the way he ran TNA. Do you
remember the very early days of TNA when they re used to run every Tuesday
that I actually emailed right when when I would email by Broader and he would
actually use what I said on air. Yeah, they used to run once
a week, and I remember, here's here's here's what happened. And Jerry
Jarrett was was the was the boss at the time. It was n w
A TNA. They ran weekly pay per views for like nine to ninety five,
and I remember being down there, I think it was two thousand and
three or two thousand and four, and Jerry Lynn and I, the great
Jerry Lynn, we had we had an amazing feud in TNA. You can
go back and google all this stuff. You can look at it on YouTube.
We had a hell of a feud. We kind of reignited the old
E c W feud and in one show we Jerry Lynn and I had I
don't remember what the stipulation was. There's a stipulations match. I think it
was like a first blood match. Or something with I don't know, but
we it ended up being an amazing match, like a five star match on
Meltzer, and we we stole the show and we were mid car hard and
Jeff Jarrett himself had to go on right after us. And then in the
production meeting I came to find out afterwards it was a shit show because they
completely dissed what Jeff had done because it was it fell so under par of
what Jerry and I had done, and Jerry Jared's words and said production meeting
where well, if you can't, if you can't beat him and have a
better match than them, then don't put him on before you. And then
Jerry Lynn and I both got let go after that, and neither one of
us had a match in TNA for years after that match. So that was
the problem with Jeff Jarrett because he was trying to not only I get booking
yourself in the right position, but he was also not delivering and there were
so many young talents, not just myself or Jerry Lynn, but the Samoa
Joe's and other great talents, and he was effectively trying to bury those guys
already. And you know, again, I just had to say that because
it's always been a little chip on my shoulder that a lot of people never
hear. But yeah, that was real. I'm glad we're actually getting this
out and we're airing it out. So it's just it's a little snippet.
That's good stuff to hear, though, you know it's real. I mean,
that's just really yeah. I can't make that ship up, you know
what I mean, absolutely appreciate it, all right, fed us. So
we are closing in on our time that we said here, but it was
quick with you, it does. I think we're gonna have to swing back
with the part two of this. But to end it real quick, I
do want to ask, since we did have you know, I guess,
would y'all consider Jay Cargo of defection? No? No, okay, Well,
the only reason why I do is because she's homegrown with aw and I
I think I consider any homegrown talent that moves companies would consider that. But
since she didn't make any immediate impact, that's what kind of gives me on
the fence about it's left out. Yes, I don't really know about that
girl. But one thing I do want to ask y'all, who is somebody
that you would want to see defects either way. That's a spicy one.
Now for me it may not be that great one. But for the women's
division, I would like to see britt Breaker come to w W a healthy,
a healthy brit Breaker. Yes, yes, I would agree with that.
For me, I'm gonna go with you said to go both ways,
right either way? Either way? Yeah, I would take biancabell Air and
put her in a w h H What on earth would you do over there?
Make your woman's division? She would drop everybody, seriously, it would
create a woman's division better. And if I brought anybody over, I mean
it's it's Buddy Matthews. Yeah, we saw him on You have seen se
division recently? Didn't Yeah, So if that's any kind of foreshadow when maybe
company in fruition, I mean Alster Black will be back to I mean like
so yeah, So I I read an article a long time ago about like
when all the e dps of ab W went into a room they talked,
and some kind of outsider like Meltzer or something like that, you know,
these fucking slimes. He came out. He's like, yeah, Cody'll be
the first leave. He was right, Yeah, so so now we're gonna
ask the boss, mister p J P. Who's gonna be the personal leave
Wardlow? I think, wow, guy, I have Wardlow for a long
time because of his look, because of his size, and he has a
lot of ability that's untapped. I think if you get him in the right
atmosphere, in the right locker room, with the right people training him up,
talking him up, putting him in a positive light, I think that
young man has a lot to offer, you know. And that's just me.
What about Hobbs? Oh sure, yeah, of course, the same
thing. Another one. And I hear he's got a great attitude too.
I hear he's a very nice man behind us, and he's willing to to
you know, to try to learn. And you know, you always want
somebody that's teachable, right because none of these you know, none of these
guys. And I'm not saying that because you know, just because we all
need teaching and we all need training, right, even myself I could learn,
you know. You know, he's a guy that I could definitely could
benefit from something like that. For sure. Well, who would you not
sign? This is a good question, Jack Perry? Yes, okay,
why I was a big fan of his. But I just unfortunately I've just
seen and heard too much negative. I think he has a lot of and
again I could be wrong. I don't know the truth. You know,
it's just what you hear. So anything I say, I say just you
know, take very lightly. But you know, Jack Perry just seems like
he's a ton of problems, unfortunately, because he's a very talented young man.
Yeah, it's really weird. Like his dad was a celebrity, so
everybody cares about that, you know. Well, I think I think he
has a chip on his shoulder because of that. And from what I heard
Eric, his dad was pretty amazing as far as trying to help his son
stay humble and try to do it the right way. But you know,
unfortunately, when you don't have somebody in your life that grounds you, you
can kind of lose that real quick, especially with any kind of fame or
in or money. So I think Jack Perry thought his shit didn't stink,
but unfortunately, you know, he made a bunch of mistakes that we could,
you know, we could see. And it's a shame, you know.
And it's not like it's unfixable, of course, it's fixable. You
know, but you know, just have to stay focused and just you know,
it's amazing. I always was taught to my in my career. Just
be humble, respect everyone, work hard, and the right things will come
to you. That's how I was taught, and I still believe that,
and unfortunately sometimes it doesn't work these days. I hope I'm wrong, but
you know, I just think Jack Perry is definitely one of those guys.
Wow, all right, well ACQUI as to a second, Yeah, I
think we're gonna have to We're gonna have to swing back with a second.
I feel like I had to skip over some of my notes here just because
we uh stared off a different direction. So I'll definitely put something together for
that. You know, we're gonna have many more defections. It's gonna happen.
We're gonna we're gonna see all the restlers who defected to a W come
back. You got guys like Christian and Edge and Jericho. These guys have
to come back for Hall of Fame inductions. It's like it's gonna happen.
I don't think we will consider that defection. That's more like a homecoming.
So but it's still gonna happen. But guys, it was a pleasure.
Again. I'm sorry, I just I don't mean to apologize too much,
but just life has taken over. But you never apologize. We will grow
in life. Yes, it was great getting with you guys for listeners.
A pleasure for the listeners, Rocket Teasers or seven on the X. If
you're going to reach out at any time, We're always there. We're always
listening to all the listeners on the mailbag. Guys, I'm always listening.
I'm the captain on the X exactly. That's why or whatever you want to
call it. Right now. Yeah, and justin remind remind everybody what's going
on with you wrestling your weekend one more time? And how do you just
I will be at wrestle Con wrestling in your weekend. Just follow me both.
You'll have all the information you need on X AKA Twitter and on Instagram.
Just at PJ Palaco, all the information on wrestle Con and my appearances
for wrestling your weekend will be there, So just just check it out,
man, And thank you guys for just letting me be a part of this
wonderful podcast. Guys, Michael and Rocky, I really appreciate you guys.
Man, you know I really enjoy this, so thank you. Guys.
All right, good to hear from me, and we'll be in touch.
Let everybody all right, everybody great. Thanks for listening to the WWE Podcast.
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