Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep2 - Raising Two Puppies Together: Is Littermate Syndrome a Real Thing?‌

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is episode
two of the Puppy Culture

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Potluck podcast.

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Today's question comes to us
from a breeder, but it's a topic

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that we get a lot from breeders
and puppy owners alike,

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and that is questions
about littermate syndrome.

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So a quick description
of littermate syndrome,

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in case you're not already familiar
with the term.

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Littermate syndrome

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is when two littermates grow up together,
so they're never separated, they,

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they live in the same household,
they grow up in the same household,

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and then at some point
they start displaying a variety

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of undesirable behaviors,
which we'll talk more about.

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And the thought is
that the fact that they're littermates

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and the fact
that they were never separated

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means that they formed
a superior bond with each other,

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that they bonded more closely
with each other than with their owners.

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And that sort of lack of attachment
and superior bond that

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they have with their
their litter mate is the root cause

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of these problems.

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So I'm going to read you the post

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and then we're going to talk generally
about littermate syndrome.

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And then my specific advice
to this breeder

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and I want to say before I read it
that the breed is Clumber spaniel

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and that will become important
as we go through and talk about this more.

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So here's the post.

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I am keeping both of my bitch puppies
in my litter.

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That having been said,
one of the girls is going to be going

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to my co-breeders home and will be
swapping them out occasionally.

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Ultimately,
having them both end up with me.

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Is there a timeframe
that will be recommended

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to ensure good development?

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I found this article to be interesting.

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Now, the article that she linked to
is an article

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that basically outlines, you know,
the whole nightmare of littermate syndrome

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and the pitfalls of littermate syndrome.

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We'll come back to that.

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And then I asked a follow up question,

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which is for her to sort of flesh out
for me what she means by swapping them out

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occasionally and ultimately having them
wind up with her.

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And her answer was they were going

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to separate them and trade them out
in the first year of their life.

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Ultimately,
to have them wind up after a year

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old living with the the original poster.

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I had some specific advice for her
in this situation,

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but I think we need to speak a little bit
globally about littermate syndrome first,

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and first
we have to talk about the word syndrome,

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because a syndrome really is

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just a group of symptoms
that consistently occur together

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or a condition characterized
by a set of associated symptoms.

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Right. It's not

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it's not really like a disease
or a genetic condition.

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So a lot of times
people say littermate syndrome

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and it means kind of
a lot of different things.

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It can mean two puppies
that are bonded, quote

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unquote, to each other
and don't have any interest in humans.

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It can mean two puppies that fight
relentlessly.

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It can mean puppies with separation
anxiety.

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It can mean puppies with neophobia,
meaning to say fear of the novel,

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which is, you know, what we try and
counteract with socialization practices.

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So it's kind of a ...

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it's a little bit

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like fading puppy syndrome in the sense
that it's this whole catchall of

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I don't know, we kept two puppies
and then there there's all these problems,

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so we're thinking it's
because they're littermates.

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So up on the show page, I did
put up an article, an excellent article

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that Kayla Fratt wrote for IAABC
that would be

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the International Association
of Animal Behavior Consultants Journal.

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So it's a peer reviewed scientific journal

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about why there's no reason to believe
that Littermates syndrome

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exists.

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Everything that people describe
as littermate syndrome

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is really just sort of
like sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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It's just under socialization
and not having invested

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the amount of time that you need
to individually into each puppy

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and the fact

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that they happen to be littermates,
I mean that that really is irrelevant.

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So what littermate syndrome
really is, it's two puppy syndrome.

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It's it's to under socialized
puppy syndrome.

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So I'm going to say there's no such thing

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truly as littermate syndrome.

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But before you get excited and say, “Well,
that's great,

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now I'm going to put a double deposit down
and get two puppies”,

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I want to talk to you about this
because you really

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do have to make a huge commitment
if you're going to have two puppies

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of the same age or you will wind up
with some of the kinds of problems

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that people describe
with littermate syndrome.

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Breeders

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run on multiple puppies all the time.

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I mean, we do it.

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We do it without any consequence
because normally

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when we're grading a litter
and going through a litter,

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you know, some of them are going to go
with pets very early.

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And then it's sort of like an elimination
process that you want to run them on.

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You want to see how their temperament
develops,

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you know, what kind of personalities
they have, how the bites come in.

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For some breeds,
it might be coat and color.

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There could be
a lot of different things, right?

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So we do it routinely
and we don't encounter problems,

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but it takes a huge commitment

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because you have to

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do everything
that you would do with one puppy

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and you have to do it
individually with two puppies.

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As my friend Magda,

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who breeds Norwich
terriers, is always saying,

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when you have two puppies,
you have three puppies,

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you have puppy number one
and you have puppy number two

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and you have puppy one two,
which is the puppies together.

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So that puppy one two thing, regardless
of whether they have any relation

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to each other or not,
just having two puppies of the same age,

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they're going to behave and interact
with the world very differently

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than individually,
and they have to learn to navigate

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the world individually.

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So that means what does that mean?

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That means as a puppy owner,

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you have to sign up for two puppy
socialization classes.

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Okay?

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You can't bring them both together
to the same class,

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even if you have another person
in the class because they have to learn

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how to navigate the world
without the support of their litter mate..

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number two, a littermate or just age

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conspecific okay, so, so you know,
they have to learn to stand on their own

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and not have that support
of their housemate litter mate,

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whatever it is, that puppy, their own age.

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In the same way

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that when we're first
bringing puppies out, right.

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I talk a lot in Puppy Culture
and also in our With Open Arms

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Puppy Course about how it's great
to have a lead pony if you can,

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an older dog that the puppy can model on
sort of look to for you know

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environmental cues like “Oh

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I guess

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we don't have to be worried about this,
the big dog is fine” in the same way

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that that's important
at a certain early stage in socialization,

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you also

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separately, the puppy has to learn
to navigate life on their own.

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It has to happen. So two puppy classes.

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Okay, definitely two puppies
socialization play times.

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You have to sign up
for separate socialization, play times.

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Even the times when I've been pressed
and had to bring two littermates to class,

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I would work one littermate

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and then put that litter mate in a crate
and then work the other littermate.

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So again, they they stood on their own.

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But I never let them
do the play session together

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because two puppies,
you know, of the same age in the same

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household will pack up and,
you know, can think they're ten feet

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tall against the other puppies
and really pack up on the other puppies.

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It's not fair.

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And once again,

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it's not teaching the puppies to sort of
navigate the world on their own.

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So you're going to have that.

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You're going to have to have two puppy
classes.

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You're going to have to have
two socialization experiences every day,

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again, like we say in Puppy Culture
and in the puppy course,

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that period of time, from the time
you get that puppy home through

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12 to 14 weeks, you should be taking that
puppy new someplace every day.

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Every day
that puppy should be getting out.

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If you have two puppies, that means
you have to make two individual trips.

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So you know you're going to go
to the garden center.

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You, I suppose you could have them

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in the car together,
but you're going to have to take one

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puppy out, do your whole socialization
experience, put that puppy away,

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and then take the other puppy out and do
that whole socialization experience.

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So, you know, it's time consuming.

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And again,
even if you have a helpful spouse or

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human offspring that's of an

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age that they can be helpful to you,
it doesn't matter.

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The puppies can't do it at the same time.

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Now, I mean, theoretically,
you could tag team

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and one could take one vehicle
and go one place

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and another could take another vehicle
and go another place.

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But I'm just emphasizing for you
that this is double

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it is double work.

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House and crate training.

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Again,
in our Puppy Culture With Open Arms course

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we give a whole protocol
from start to finish for how you set up,

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starting with what we call area
P, which is the puppy's designated area

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with the litter area
and an open crate and work your way up

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to sleeping in a crate at night
and being totally house trained.

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You need two setups
if you're going to keep two puppies.

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I mean, you need two complete set ups.

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You can't have them
just together in the pen.

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So that's another big thing.

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Training,

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each puppy needs individual training time

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each day, so you have to practice
your things like your leash walking,

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your whatever your tricks are,
whatever you,

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sit down, stay

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all your things that you're going to do
and, well, show handling too.

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If that's if that's something
that you want to do with your puppies.

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Agility, obedience, whatever

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it is, you have to do it twice every day.

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And so, you know,
what I'm kind of boiling down to here

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is that for the average,
even very motivated pet owner ...

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no, why? I mean, you don't need two.

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One is much better.

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I mean, if for some reason
you wind up with two, there's every reason

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to think it's going to work out fine
if you're willing to put in the effort.

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So it's not like there's some magical,

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littermate syndrome that's

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going to make your puppy turn out badly
or puppies turn out badly.

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But why would you do that to yourself?

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It's just it's a lot of work
and it's unnecessary.

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If you, you know, if you really want
to get more than one, you know,

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I recommend at least a year,

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preferably 18 months
between the two puppies.

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I mean, you really want to be past

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most of your development.

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And, you know, you're more tough
developmental periods, which, you know, by

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the time they're 18 months to two years
old, they're a little more settled.

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It's a little less
you know, you're, you're hitting

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a few less potholes by that point.

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So that's my advice,
as far as littermate syndrome,

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it doesn't really exist per se,
but certainly keeping two puppies

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can be a disaster if you

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don't put in the individual work

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that you need to for each puppy.

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So now I'm going to talk about my specific

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advice to this breeder,
because that was just general

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littermate syndrome
advice and more, I'd say, directed toward

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your puppy owner or your novice breeder
that maybe isn't aware

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of the kind of work
that it's going to involve.

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So this bringing puppy is
very interesting,

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is bringing a puppy or a young dog
back in and out of the house.

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Your success with
that is going to be very breed dependent.

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In fact, your whole two puppy syndrome
is going to be very much breed

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dependent
and it's going to depend a lot on how much

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intra-dog
same sex aggression is in your breed.

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Now this

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breeder is breeding clumber spaniels,
which to my knowledge are about as dog

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friendly and non-reactive and mellow
as you can get.

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So I would imagine for her,
I mean, it's going to be

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a great experience
to, you know, sort of pass this puppy back

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and forth between her house and her co
breeders house, which, by the way,

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if there's pet people listening,
we do this all the time.

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We split up.

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Even if we have really big litters.

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A lot of times we will split the litters
as soon as they're weaned, you know,

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before they're of the age to be placed
just between two co-breeders,

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just so that we can give more

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individual attention to those puppies
as they're coming up to the age

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what we're going to want to start
really interacting and training with them.

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So this is not at all
an unusual arrangement.

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I mean, certainly
if a dog's going to be shown,

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it's coming in and out of the house
with handlers.

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I mean, we do this
kind of stuff all the time.

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Now with

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my breed, bull terriers,
it's very interesting

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because
even if I take a dog out for a week

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to, you know, go to an away dog show
and I come back,

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I have to do a whole reintroduction
in the back yard between that dog

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and the other dogs,
because I've had literal dogfights

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just walking in the door, in the driveway
even, when they see each other,

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you know, it's like, “hey, who are you?

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I don't recognize you”, but,
you know, I'm coming from a breed

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where there's significant
same sex aggression. So

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my experience and the advisability
of someone with a bull terrier doing

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this is much different than a clumber
spaniel.

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Now, her specific concern was

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at what age does
she need to get that second

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puppy out of her house
to avoid the two puppy syndrome?

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And, you know,
I think after listening to this,

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it would be obvious
to anyone that really it

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probably depends more on how much time
you have to spend with the puppy

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than anything else in the sense of,
you know,

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when you find that you have a full time
job, you're running out of time.

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You can't sign up for two puppy classes.

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You know, the puppies ready
to move on to that and you can't do it.

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That's the time to get that puppy out
to the second person

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who's going to be able
to do the work with the puppy.

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So that's the number one thing,

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you know now also.

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So I mean, sorry, circling back,
let me just say.

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So that would be normally whatever time
you would normally place the puppy.

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And when I say normally,

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I'm not talking about a backyard breeder,
normally I'm talking about a breeder

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who does something like Puppy Culture
or the equivalent, because obviously,

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you know, there's millions

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of really good breeders out there,
never even heard of Puppy Culture.

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But something like that, a program
like that where the breeder is doing

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some,
you know, some work, training the puppy

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and placing them at an appropriate age

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where you're kind of splitting
the difference

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between the expertise of the breeder

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holding on to the puppy
and working with it a little bit longer,

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and the need for individual attention
from from the puppy owner.

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So what is that age?

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I mean, just
I don't know, in a clumber spaniel.

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It's a rare breed
and not one that I honestly

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have really had
a lot of personal experience with at all.

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But I can tell you it does vary a lot.

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Okay, So like for the Bull Terriers
and I would say there

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are a lot of breeds around
ten weeks old is is probably the age

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when you just kind of see them

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start to look out of the weaning pen

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and they're sort of like they're no longer
really part of that group.

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You know,
they're looking for their people, right?

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They're looking to make that connection
with the human being

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and not be part of this organism
that's a litter anymore.

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And, you know, you see glimmers of it
maybe at eight weeks,

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but they're still kind of little babies
going back to each other.

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But with my puppies,
by the time they're 9 to 10 weeks,

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I mean, they're looking for
their people. You can see it

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now with the Norwich terriers,

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my friend Magda breeds, you know,

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they're still nursing at 12 weeks old.

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I mean, they're so neotenous
meaning to say so puppy like for so long

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their developmentally way
behind the bull terrier.

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And then on the other hand,
you have German shepherds like Rebecca

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Pinkston and Suzanne

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Shelton are always talking about
in the Puppy Culture discussion group

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where, you know, nine weeks old,
I mean, they're starting

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to take on their littermates
and seriously mistrusting novelty.

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I mean, it's a much more natural
kind of breed that way.

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So it's they're developmentally ahead
so for them

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maybe a little earlier would be
when they would place their puppies.

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But the long and short of it is, you know
you're really balancing two things.

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You're balancing your resources
as a breeder,

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you know, how much time do you in
your household have to devote

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to this puppy or these two puppies,
if you keep two.

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And you know what,

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at what age
is your breed emotionally developed enough

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to want to want to leave,
to be emotionally stable enough to leave?

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And that can vary a lot.

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I mean, seriously,
by as much as three weeks

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between breeds.

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And that's something, you know,
that is just a constant theme

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and something that I've learned so much
about through the Puppy Culture discussion

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group is just the amazing,

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you know, diversity between breeds.

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And that, so, so often we speak in
absolute terms about something like

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littermate syndrome or best age to place
puppies or you name it.

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And there really is no one answer.

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It's more
it depends on the developmental period

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that that puppy is in and breeds can vary.

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It's been documented as much as 16 days.

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And anecdotally, just in our observation,
I would say

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it's more like three weeks
that they can really vary that much.

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So thanks to
that poster for sending in that question

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that gave us a chance
to touch on some really cool topics.

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If you want to join the discussion
or ask me something that you'd like me

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00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,680
to talk about on air,
join us on the Puppy Culture Discussion

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00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:11,160
Group on Facebook
or visit the show page at madcapradio.com.

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I'll be posting the links to the studies

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that I talked about there,
so you'll want to check that out.

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Thanks for listening.

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Bye bye.