Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind with Kate Banford

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Speaker 1: On the beck Doll Cast. The questions asked if movies have wenen and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they happened individualism the patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hi, welcome to the back Doll Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante. And we're back, Baby, We're back. I mean, for you guys were never we were never gone. But for us, we were gone. We were gone in the sunset. I was out of town for a couple of weeks and we changed and you were gone. You were also gone. I'm so sorry to forget your experience, even though I just said I was gone. Wait, okay, yeah, I was gone for longer. So I feel like I win. That is what I want to think about it. You actually did win the contest of being gone. And then also we are recording in yet a different place than we have in all of our other episodes. Yeah, because we were mostly at the studio at Maldon Comics. And then we record at a few episodes at the Ruby, which is a comedy venue next door to Meltdown Plug, A good venue venue. Sorry, I shouldn't have say good. I was just thinking about, well, we'll get there. We'll get there. Now. We are recording in the How Stuff Works studio. Yeah, I'm freaking. I mean, daily Zeitgeist is recorded here. We're here pretty frequently. I love a snack set up here. The one note one note for this amazing new space we're being allowed to use. Um Aristotle is a full pane of glass away from us. Yes, and that is new and I have to turn around to see him. It's really well, we're experimenting with the chair set up like this. I would say, this isn't like I don't know. We'll see, we'll feel it out. Anyways, we're excited. Were excited. We've got an a v club right up. Today we did that was a kick. By the time you're you'll hear this episode, it'll be weeks away. But yeah, it's new for us today. Yeah. Yeah, with our Anna Josie episode on She's all that. So we're excited. We get a lot of stuff to talk about today. I'm so thrilled about our guests today. Let's oh wait, what's the vital test? Oh yeah, let's talk about that. Forgot So the Bechtel Cast is a podcast where we talk about the portrayal of women and it's inspired by the Bechdel Test, which requires that a movie has two female identifying characters in it who have names, who speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about anything other than a man. Can I give you literally the most like insane example of the Bechtel test being passed? So for work this week, for work, I had to play this anime porn game called Pussy Saga. For I didn't have to play it for ten hours, but I did play it for ten hours. Pussy Saga, I mean, by and large, really just a scourge on humanity where it's all animal titties. It's to choose your own adventure game and the setup is wild. The setup is that the Greek poet Sappho has been kidnapped, famous queer Greek poet Sappho has been kidnapped by a sex demon and me, the player also me personally, has to fill a jar with the come of five different women uh in order to rescue the Greek poets Sappho. And that's the conceived of the game, which is wild. To hear from a woman you meet because she is broken into your home. It is masturbating on your bed. This is not called into question. This is the rules of the universe. So I go in there like, okay, I know you just got me masturbating. But here's the thing. The Greek poets Sappho has been kidnapped and you need to get the come of five women or she will die. And I was like, okay, let's do it. Anyways, you have to, you know, sort of spread your seed. And it's very problematic and I don't have time to get into it. But the way you meet the women who's come, you can say, truly get to release the Greek poets afo. The way you meet is there is a conversation, a cut scene where they talk to each other, which means every woman you've ever had sex with knows each other by one degree of separation. Another crazy world rule. But I mean that's pretty much part for the course for me. So there, Wow, you're such a wild child. There's okay. So this is a scene between Marina and Linda, both of whom I've had digital sex with. Also, you don't actually have c intercourse or have sex with them. You see basically play candy crush and then at the end it's like you fucked her, she's yours now, and it's it's wild you play puzzles. So they have this really like kind of sweet cutaway scene about Linda's relationship with her mom right before I have sex with both of them. This is your mom still nagging you. You need to tell her this relationship isn't normal. And then Linda says, I don't know she's my mother. After all, I'm not afraid of her or anything. I just feel lousy when I'm around owned her. That passes the PacTel shirt. And anyways, this episode is sponsored by Pussy Saga and do not play it well. This has been a long and trail. Yeah, but I'm glad you shared that with us. It's important for our listeners to know. I wrote a three thousand word essay about it. So there's more if you're interested in pussy tagas. Anyways, let's get to our podcast that we have. Let's do that just got very disturbed our guest today. We're very excited about um. She owns and runs the Good Good Comedy Theater in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania being the state that I'm from. Interesting that you made that about you, So sorry. I just started for four to five minutes about anyway. She is wonderful. You're gonna love her. Kate Banford, Hello, Thanks. Okay, I also feel very rude because I told you to say that, but I should say I co own and co run it with Aaron Evans, who my other half. Well that's another one of the great, another great, great person. Thanks for being here, and thanks for bringing us the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to talk about it. So what's your history with this movie? When did you first see it? So? I don't remember. I was trying to rack my brain of the first time I saw this movie, and I don't quite recall, but I feel like I probably saw it for the first time when I was like a teen, maybe like in my fifteens sixteens, and that era, which is pre ever having a serious relationship or hating someone while also loving them in that particular way. Um, but I had just rewatched this movie. Actually, it's crazy. I watched the movie recently, cried afterwards for like twenty minutes straight, and then I watched the commentary, like right, after that as well, and then I watched it again this morning, so I've really been just knee deep in some nal sunshine recently. Sure, yeah, it's really good. It's yeah. I think part of the reason why I wanted to talk about this movie is it's just so emotionally captivating and it's like also just like visually, it's like stimulating to all the senses except for taste. I taste, I can taste smart RUFFLOA wow, very h that was my big crush take away from this movie was a new I don't know if I knew who Mark Rufflo was before I saw this movie. Well when did you first see I'm pretty sure I watched it with a group of girls sometime in my junior year of high school. I think, so pretty young, pretty impressionable, kind of like UK like couldn't fully relate to it, but like like the few lines in this movie that everyone says all the time, I was like, because this was like, this is such an interesting example of like manic Pixie dream girl being commented upon before that term was even in the world, and I was worried about that going into this view because I've seen it. I think again in college. Maybe one out of This is probably the fourth or fifth time I was watching it ever, and I was thinking about it because I saw you last week and you were you were like, I watched the movie and then I wanted the commentary. I was like, wow, I need to like revisit it, and I was worried about how it would hold up. But all the like red flags I wrote down in the first half of the movie are commented on and resolved by the end of the movie, and I was it just feels good to like a movie still and not be like, well, this one goes back in the trash, even though it made me weep as a teenager. I was sobbing last night. Yeah, it's so sad. It just it really captures like true human ocean. And I don't know what the red flags are you're talking about. I didn't really think about it that way, but I think that the fact that they get resolved is like a sign of the movie being able to talk about how complex humans are and how we can be shitty, shitty people and then very loving and caring people at the same time. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, And usually with like those stock characters, they don't exist to be complex they exist to advance the right narrative. For I don't know Orlando Bloom right, who was Elizabeth Sound? Orlando Bloom was absolutely my major crush when I was like, and he wasn't really anything before The Lord of the Rings, but after Yes to the Caribbean. Yeah, I found um. When I was home this past week, I found my old dance bag and zip in the front pocket was a picture I had torn out of a magazine of Legois like arching and I was like, whoa weird horny kid thing to do? Yeah, I didn't. I don't even remember having a crush on Orlando Bloom as Lego less, but apparently I did. You had to. Yeah, Um, I first saw this movie. It came on two thousan four. I don't think I saw it right away in theaters, but I think I saw it probably a year or two after that. I well, this has a lot to do with me being emotionally dead inside, but this have you been in a long term relationship? I sure have not, so that also might have something to do with interesting because that's what I was thinking about this morning. I was like, I wonder if that changes people's perception of the movie. Yeah, Although I do think it does a good job of representing all the intricacies of a relationship in a way that a lot of movies don't bother too. And that's like one of the things I want to talk about when we get into the discussion. But yeah, I I still as someone who exists in the world and has like friendships and meaningful relationships outside of romantic questionships, I still can understand and appreciate like all of the intricacies that this movie delves into when it comes to a relationship. And then Jamie to piggyback off what you were saying, where you're like, oh, it's still nice to be able to like a movie because we've done just after doing podcasts for a year and a half. Now, yeah, it's really Yeah the podcast basically, I when the Avy Club wrote that sorry to keep bringing it up, but the like over the past eighteen months and then sort of said that we've grown as people. I was like, that's not true. We haven't grown as plain you know, we are even probably worse than we were before. But yep, that's going to be like speak to yourself for that's like Nope, but the record show I have gotten worse and will continue to. Well, I've been wanting to bring this up every now and then, but like I've listened to our first probably like twelve episodes are so recently people knew the cast, listen to them all. But also like we've our voices have definitely grown and we've done a lot better when it comes to like critically analyzing movies. I watch all the movies. Now you watch them all. That's good. Yeah, I feel like in the first few episodes I just had like really flimsy arguments about everything, and I think we hated women when we started the podcast is the problem, but we like them. Wow that you guys have grown, you haven't get worse. It actually get start as an alright podcast and now podcast. Yeah, this movie in particular seems to be a very personal experience for everyone who like everyone watches this movie a slightly different way. I feel like, and if you have a specific experience of it, feel free to last note. But like, I'm pretty sure every time I've seen this movie, I've been thinking about a different person. Where it's so easy to project yourself onto these characters, which is like what a lot of good movies and bad movies are enable you to do. But like, yeah, like I think I was like thinking of a different person this time watching it than I was the last time I was watching it, and my experience of it changed a little bit, and like different parts hit for me in different ways, and oh, it's just really good. It is I would say, it holds up and it has a really good script. I would know this as someone who does have a master's screen screenwriting from Boston University. I don't like to bring it up, but uh, this is this is our first on the list of people who our listeners are always like, what about this one? That's my impression from I care, but it is our first Charlie Kaufman joint yeah, that we've done and directed by Michelle Country, who is not Spiked John, which is who I thought this movie was directed by. Which also Michelle Gondry has a music video that I don't know if you guys have seen it, which is like one of my favorite music videos of all time, and it's very similar in aesthetic to this movie. It's the Chemical Brothers Let Forever Be. The music video is like a dreamlike dance song and it uses in the same way this movie does that uses like practical effects as well as like editing tricks, and I just see that music video and I'm like, yeah, of course this is this is the only person who could execute this movie properly. Yeah. The look of this movie, I mean, and we don't get into this too much on our podcast, but like the way this movie shot is crazy. It's like so so so it's the most amazing. It's just such incredible filmwork and just seeing because you're kind of it's kind of like watching magic because they'll do like one shots and Jim Carey will be like in one place and then another place, where like Kate Winslett will be a one place and then another place, but all in the same shot. And it's because they're like diving through holes and like getting up or like changing their outfit and moving places and being themselves at a different time within like a span of three seconds. And it's so it just like it really gives you this like very realistic, like scary movie type shock value. I was gonna say, there's like there's a lot of imagery in this movie that you could easily find in a horror movie, like would not be out of place at all, Right, And it's so interesting because it uses it's almost like it uses like art house kind of stuff, scary film stuff, and then drama and comedy and like Flapstick. It just uses a large variety of genres and it just melts them all together in such a wonderful it's also good. It's perfect. Well, I have some notes, but before we get um, before we get to those, shall we do the recap? Okay? So, internal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind is about the relationship between Joel played by Jim Carey and Clementine played by Kate Winslett. They meet, presumably on a train, and then we cut kind of further into their relationships, sort of as they're breaking up. And then immediately after they've broken up, and they both decide to get this procedure by which they erase their memories of each other. So they basically will go through this procedure and then they come out on either side. She gets at first, he finds out she's getting it, and he's like, I'll show you, and then he's like, I'm going to win the break gap um, which, like fair have tried to do that a bunch of times. So she erases her memory of him first, and then he's like, Okay, well I'm going to undergo this procedure now. As well as he's undergoing it. During the procedure, he's reliving all these memories and he decides that he actually doesn't want to forget about her, and he decides that he's going to try to like call it off. But this proves to be difficult because he is unconscious and there's really no way to do that. Mark and his underwear dancing dancing. I mean, that just feels important to mention that Mark Ruffo is in his underwear and he does have really nice legs. You see also a little bit of his butt, you do. I mean, the cinematography is fine, but Mark rufflos but really stole the show for me. But work is incredible. I've honestly never seen better. But where but Work you can see in a horror movie and it wouldn't be out of place exactly. It's a great But it's a great Mark Rufflo is so handsome, it's just crazy, like and I was like, I like I had my teenage crush all over again. Yeah. Elijah Woods in it, he looks like shit. Also, he's very creepy. He Yeah, he's creepy and he looks fourteen. Yeah, that's my critique. So that all of these characters are in the movie because they're the ones who are executing this procedure. So like Mark Ruffalo is the head technician, Elijah Wood is there, Kirston Dunce shows up eventually, I wasn't clear in what her job would she like the receptionist. So Joel has decided that he is gonna try to basically stop this procedure from happening so that he does end up remembering Clementine. So he's basically taking her and they're like trying to run away from the like deletion of his memories. He tries to like hide her in his subconscious. Basically they try to sort of like create new memories to start her into so that they can't find her to delete them. Um, so they're doing all this stuff. Meanwhile, like Mark Ruffalo and all those guys are like, WHOA, something's happening. This isn't working, Like he's like reliving memories that were already deleted. So they call in the doctor named Howard played by Tom Wilkinson, one of my favorite character actors. So the doctor shows up and Kirston Dunce is like, oh, how are I have a crush on you? And we find out they have a romantic history and then she forgot that and I was like, I've forgotten that too, So she we find out had her memories of him erased. And then when she discovers this, she is very upset and she decides to basically reveal to all the customers of this mind eraser company, like basically what happened. So the procedure for Joel ends up actually working, like all of his memories of Clementine are erased. But they meet again because there is a small like fragment of her memory where she's like, meet me in Montalk, and then he, like on a whim, decides to go to Montalk, and then they meet on the train, which is the opening sequence of the movie, and they're like, wait, that wasn't them meeting for the first time. That was them re meeting and our minds explode. But then they immediately discover that they already had a history, that they had already been together because they get the correspondence from Kirsten Dunce's character. It says like, here's all the information about your partner that you had erased, and then they decide, oh, even though we like maybe weren't that good for each other or we were unhappy that go around, let's try it again. But they don't explicitly say that. Yeah, they just basically say like, Okay, yeah, you don't know what's going to happen. I know, And that, I think is what makes me so sad at the end. It's just because that's like you just don't know. It's very It's like I think like living in that space is like like sad and terrifying, but also like really beautiful at the same time. So it's like obviously I'm going to cry that scene. Yeah, that scene really fun. Yeah, they're like they're like laughing and they're like happy and excited while also being like scared. Just a very interesting place to end it in. Yeah, for sure. It's a very like non Hollywood ending, right because Hollywood movies would be like they are definitely back together in this time worked like this is like we don't know and neither do you. But thankfully it's also not like just like a sad super realistic ending, which is like we would know they don't make it, which I'm also happy you don't have like you would think Charlie Coffman would be a pessimist enough to like end it that way, be interested in like, yeah, what passed drafts of it? Or if it's like ever at any point and differently, I don't know, but I think that that's like the ending is why people are so easily able to project themselves into the movie, because it's like you just don't yeah know, like you can watch that movie and still be in a relationship and be like it's us, or you can be out of relationship like it's us. Like there's just so many different ways to to come at it and oh it's so good, all right? That there it is? That is it? Jamie? You mentioned the manic Pixie dreamgirl trope, which I definitely I don't remember Clementine's character being that, but like when I was rewatching it, yeah for sure. I well, I had seen this movie like once and then I light did enough to buy it on DVD and then never rewatched it until like yesterday, So I didn't remember that that was like a component of her character. And I started watching, I was like, oh no, like this the first couple of scenes, You're like Oh no, it like really punches you in the face with it. Can I can I give the official definition of MANI I was just looking a up. Yeah, it's a Nathan Raven great writer two thousand seven. He originated the term in a review for Elizabethtowns Kursten Dunns Kurston Dunz character. Uh and then the world never onside. But it defines a character as a bubbly, shallow, cinematic creature that exists solely in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures. Basically, she's cute and she fixes him so when school, and he even directly says that towards the end of the movie when they're in the bookstore Barnes and Noble. Yeah, they're at Barnes and Noble and they're kind of just like coming to except that he's not going to remember her, and he's like, I even thought you were going to fix me. Here I still thought you were. But she says specifically, men all think that I'm going to fix you. So he really comments on it in that scene heavily before this term was even a thing. It's so yeah, it's like so interesting and cool that that that the movie does make so many comments on a term that had not quite fully become a part of popular conscious at least. But there's yeah, there's that line where and she ends up saying it. I think it almost three different points in the movie, because you can tell it's just like a line she has in the back room, right yeah. Or she's like, I'm not a concept. Too many guys think I'm a concept or I complete them or I'm going to make them alive. But I'm just a fucked up girl looking for my own peace of mind and I kind of hate that, but whatever, don't assign me yours. And then we're like yeah, screen and then crashed through the ceiling. But yeah, I mean the first thing we see Clementine in she's sort of got that manic pixie vibe to her where she's got weird hair and she's like, Hi, who are you? Unremarkable man, I'm amazing, And she talks really fast and she like it, gets very intimate with him very quickly. Yeah, and he's clearly very uncomfortable. And then we found out later that that's because there's something in the back of her mind that knows him, and so there is a motivated reason for him to go up to him that those characters normally wouldn't have. And then we also find out all this stuff about her that is like, okay, like we we know people in our lives and like I you know, like maybe even have elements of it ourselves. That the manic pixie thing is like a total front to hide uh issues you have, right, And so for Clementine it comes up she like drinks too much but tries to make it look cute. Been there she like there's like a bunch of different stuff where she's like super flaky, she's super impulsive, but she's like it's because I'm cute, and it's that's just that's me. And she's also like clearly very loving, but also has like a temper too, because it seems like she like blows up a lot off of like little things that should maybe be talked about. And then his character is messed up because he'll always be like I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. And I see that I'm like, yes, I'm both of those people well, and then and Joel too. It's like where they are both like fundamentally good people, right, Like they're not bad people, but there's so much that's wrong with both of them that you're just like a, it's it's normal people, where like Joel is critical of her, and the things he's critical of are valid, but the way he's expressing it is so annoying and biting and like hass of aggressive. Yeah, you're like, yeah, I would probably run out of that. Yeah, And it's like she's it's partially because he's right, but it's mostly because he's just like, like it makes me so clearly also has like a nice guy complex about him, which again is addressing that first scene where she's like why do you keep saying nice? Why? And it's clear that he thinks he's being a good guy when he's like just being a guy. Well, That's why I'm prepared to argue that even though she comes off, especially in those first couple of scenes, as like the manic pixie dreamgirl type, the thing with that trope is that that type of character, that archetype, is often not developed any bit beyond that, So it's just like very surface level, like yeah, but like she presents that way at least at first, but I feel like we get to know her so well and her character so well developed that I think that she has the persona. But then it drops like, like I have no criticism of it that you would have with a normal manic pixie dream girl character, because normally, if you remove that facade from that character, there's nothing left because that character exists to advance the male's agenda or the you know, like if we're using elizabeth Town, like Christian Dunst is like like I think like a stewardess or something who's like, Hi, I'm quirky, what's your problem? Um, let me help. I'm going to coit my job and I have nice hair and my teeth are a little crooked. Well, your dad died. I've got it, you know, And it's like she doesn't exist outside of but it's like a very one dimensional portrayal. What's so funny about the fact that Kate Winslet's character is not a manic pixie dream girl is that she is actually literally of the movie in someone's dreams or memories or fantas. Yeah, so it's interesting that, um, that's the situation that it's within. It's interesting because it's like the element that we get to know inside of her head that's not even her really his reception of her. Yeah, but this was in the commentary from Michelle Gondry or Charlie Kaufman, I don't remember which. Oh, it's Michelle Gundry talking about it, because he talks about how I think they're like kind of having an argument over like it being essentially Jim Carrey's perspective of her, and it's like not technically her exactly. And then Michelle is like, oh, well, I remember when my dad died. I would have conversations with him in my dreams and it wasn't like I was making this person up. This was my dad. And it's like I know my dad well enough that it can actually create a really like vivid picture. And he was like speaking through Michelle essentially. I thought that was a really interesting thing to say. Well. Also, like with Joel, he in the story is generally a pretty reliable narrator, So if he was presented as a character in the story who wasn't as reliable, we would maybe question his perception of Clementine a little bit more. But because he the story depicts him as being like the quote reliable narrator type, then I think we can trust him enough and his perception of her enough that what we see of her in his memory is generally pretty true to who she is, so that that would have bothered me if he had a very skewed perception of her, and that even of how he was speaking about things or something, and he always seemed like the good guy right exactly. But he Yeah, his memories are pretty objective in the sense that he's remembering him being shitty as well as her being shitty, and then also being loving and good to each other. So if it had been a little bit different, we wouldn't have been able to trust him as much, and then his perception of her would not be reliable. I think, yeah, So I like how the movie handles that, and I think that just also speaks to like I was saying before, how both of these characters are so well developed and don't rely on this like stock one dimensional like man pixie dreamgirl type that doesn't get developed any bit beyond that because like so few movies that like ones that we've talked about, even don't bother to develop their characters well enough that we would understand why two people would be together. So yeah, like a lot of movies that we've talked about depict like a hetero romantic relationship in a way that we're like, well, why do they even like each other? Like what's compatible about them? And I think that's usually a result of the female character being so underdeveloped that we have no idea why they would like each other, or why like the guy would like her or anything like that. For example, like movies that we've done so far in the podcast, Twilight actually kind of Almond, Okay, don't I'm getting um love Actually, the Princess Brod the Holiday, Uh, this happens. I feel like in Blade Runner, The Mummy, our favorite movie, Gli a Julie, they're perfect for each other, they're terrible. So that's a common trend in movies. Or if a movie does take the time to develop its female characters a little bit, the movie will often still force the woman to end up with a man who has either lied to her, manipulated her, or done something else that's otherwise extremely shitty that should be grounds for dismissal, but instead she's like, but we're going to end up together at the end and have a little kiss um. For example, this happens in I Love a Little kids Um Hate the slur Um. This happens in She's All That Ghostbusters Groundhog Day. Like the movies will put them together at the end, even though we as the audience don't necessarily understand why this would be. As long as you think about it for like two seconds, you're like, oh wait, why is she picking him again? Like why are they end up ending up together? Because he was very bad to her throughout the entire course of the movie. But this movie, Eternal Sunshine, I think does a really good job developing both characters and exploring, like I said, the intricacies of a romantic relationship in a way that most movies don't bother at all. So I appreciated that about the movie. Another thing that to me about Clem's character, and I guess like would have about Joel if we saw him in another relationship where something we haven't gotten into it all yet is a little little Elijah Wood, the sneak, who is whose character I almost totally forgot about in like the because I haven't seen it in maybe three years or so, but who has. And I think this is like a commentary of some sort on how men view women, because that's something I think Charlie Kaufman is really good at, Like he can write a female character, which a lot of male screen orders absolutely cannot do. But he's but like his like real strength is like writing about how men view women wrongly a lot of the time. And so like Elijah's character, Let's call him Little Patrick because he's he's a little pot little photo and is the precious she is the ring. Let me put it in some terms you nerds can understand, for Rhoda wants the ring, but the ring is does not need a man. Sorry, Eternal Sunshine isn't like a twelve part series that's just going to continue on. Oh god, it's just like you need a different co host. So we're to believe that Joel gets his procedure done the week after Clementine has hers done, and it was all the same people basically who did the same thing to Clem the week before, and we don't find out the way that information is revealed as also very well done. Of like we see her like not recognized Joel after her memory has been wiped, and then she says, hi Patrick, baby boy, and then goes to kiss question Mark actually Elisha Wood because he saw Kate Winslett unconscious and was like all in love with her right right, which is fucked up right there. It's crazy and it's like, oh, you know, a man projecting whatever the funk he wants on to someone he doesn't know while literally erasing her memory. Fucked, it's bucked, and then steals her underwear just a good measure, steals her underwear and then steals all the mementos that Joel had bought for her as gifts, yeah, and just even just mementos of their relationship, and starts stealing his history with Clementine and essentially bringing this into his relationship with Clementine basically because he thinks it will win her over. Yeah, exactly, which in a in a different movie, that would make her be won over by him because women aren't complex, right, because men be manipulating women in movies. And usually it's okay because she'll still decide to end up with him. But great thing about this movie is that does not happen. No, And then like the whole thing you can tell feels very off to her and then she's just like I have to go like and it's great, but yeah, I feel like of all the male characters and it is mostly male characters in this movie, Patrick is like the most obviously flawed, and it's also explained why he's that way, which I would hope that like Little Dweeby dudes Allah, Elijah Wood would see that and be like, oh, that is a flawed way of thinking, because he says a few different times to Mark Gruffalo parenthes hot guff is like the moral like he's like the moral standard in a way too. He comes out on top because I forgot I forgot out if he was lying to Chris and Dunson. At the end you're like he wasn't. Yeah, he's a good guy now, and then I was like, thank god, now I feel good about right. But Elijah Woods character like keep saying to Mark Ruffalo, He's like, well, you know, I'm like not really good with ladies, and so he does that thing that like nerdy characters in eighties movies would do, which is like, I'm not good with ladies, so instead I have to trick one into liking right, And we see that go horrendously wrong in this movie, which normally we wouldn't good job movie. You did the damn thing another thing I wanted to talk about. And I don't know if this has any legitimacy at all, so ready watch out for something that might be complete and utter bullshit. But one of the scenes that I really liked happens pretty early on. Joel and Clementine are in bed together. She is drinking out of a with her own face on it. She's saying something like, you don't tell me anything, like I share everything with you. I want to know you. People have to share things. That's what intimacy is, and he's just all like, well, you just talked too much. I don't know if there's like active commentary being made on this or not, or if this is just sort of my interpretation of it, but I feel like that scene shows a lot of like the emotional labor that, especially in hetero relationships, that women often tend to have to do and to deal with because men are conditioned to repress their emotions, women are conditioned to be more emotionally nurturing. So she's over there being like, oh, like we need to talk, like you need to tell me things and he's like, no, I don't want to. And I feel like men tend to perceive interactions like that is women being naggy, but in this scene, like I'm totally on her side, where I'm just like, yeah, you, like you have to share things about yourself, like you have to be a emotionally open and vulnerable or also relationship is ever going to work. And he's so passive. He's I wrote it down because I was like, and I could hear an ex boyfriend of mine saying that to me, you know, constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating Comma Jamie period. And I was like, that's like what he says, and you're just like, fuck you. But it also portrays the complexity of a relationship to with like what's happening verbally and like physically, because she's like being really intimate and like kissing his cheek and hugging him and touching him, and then he says that really mean thing and she continues and then it like kind of sets in and then she gets really piste off and like turns away. But then now he's like, oh, she's gone, and so he tries to kiss her and hold her and like nuzzle her and she goes away. And I think that that's a scene that really sticks in the brain too, because it's not only what's happening emotionally and verbally, it's like also like physics, like their physical touch of the body language. Yeah, yeah, mimics what's going on there? Yeah. Yeah, So that scene stuck with me is being like, oh, like, look at all the emotional heavy lifting that women often tend to have to do in heter relationships. I don't know if that gets like commented on that much in media and stuff like that, because women like usually a portrayal like that in a movie would be like, look, how naggy she is, right, I think what you see over and over and it's it's typically like the reason for their conflict and you're like, you guys should really go to a couple of therapy. I think you can make it work. You guys just really needed to learn how to work through community. But seeing like how they are in the flea market as well, it's like she says something, he says something really shitty to her about like not being ready to be a mother, and she's like, yes, I can be a mother, Like I'm ready to be a mother, and then they have this whole blowout and he's just like, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it, and she's trying to talk about it. So I think it's like a it's definitely a pattern that keeps happening in this film, specifically of she's trying to unpack the mean things that he's saying to her and he's unwilling to do it, but then that causes her to freak out because what you're supposed to do. You're like, it's not being gas lit, but it is being like shut down. You're like, you just said something horrible to me, and now I can't confront this thing. So then you start to feel like crazy, like you're trapped inside of your own head. Right, But we also know it's weird because this relationship is so fascinating and like familiar feelings, Like we objectively know why he's saying what he's saying, right, because she's like an alcoholic clear, but he won't just say that, right, And it's like, well, if you not confront but like sort of like talk about this in a controlled setting where you're being honest with each other, then you can address like, Okay, she's got a problem. How can we fix this instead of just being like you can't be a mother? And like, so we know why he's saying what he's saying. It's not again, in a lot of movies that aren't this well thought out, it's just why is he so mean? Like why is he saying It's like, Okay, yeah, he's frustrated because she's an alcoholic. Yeah, he won't say anything. And you can tell because this movie does such a good job of like building up the subtlety of resentments. And the reason resentments are built up is because of no one's like communicating what they're feeling, and so it comes up in like these terrible, terrible moments. And do you think that's why maybe like as he's reliving these memories and like sort of like reseeing how he handled them, and maybe that's why he's like, wait, I don't want to forget these, like I want a chance to almost redo this. Well, I think that's what's so interesting about this movie is because it's like it's essentially commenting on the fact that it's like you shouldn't erase your history because mistakes are made. Like, even if this relationship does end and it fucking sucks and it's like the worst you have a whole year of like torture after the end of this relationship. It's like you learn from that, and if you're just erasing it, you're just going to keep reliving it over and over again. Yeah, and he's clearly and I think what's so beautiful. I mean, something I specifically love about this movie is how they comment. I just find this to be so insanely good. Is that they comment on what's happening in front of them while also living in the moment. And have you guys seen Fleabag that TV show, so you know how she turned to the like chewing gum. They'll like turn to the camera and talk to the camera, and that's how you get their internal monologue. Whereas this film does something I don't think I've seen in anything else ever. Also, I'm thinking of the TV show Unfabulous. I loved that show at an age where I should not have loved that show. It was really at It's so good though. Yeah, but she'll like live out her fantasies and then pop back into reality, and that happens in so many things, but in this movie you'll see them happening simultaneously within like the same breath or with like in like one shot within a conversation between the two people. So seeing someone commenting on what's happening in front of them, yeah, like in real time, in real time is a really insane thing to see. And it's like it's like, yeah, and you're you're watching someone learn as you're seeing it for the first time. It's I don't know. Yeah. The last thing I want to say about Clement Tank, because we haven't even started talking about Marryott, right, is we see that and we see this with Joel two, but more so with Clem because we see how she acts with sneaky little Patrick. Um is that for her the same like most of us, the same insecurities pop up in every relationship. And it's like sort of a variation on a theme where there's that scene like is so beautiful but also really breaks her heart where she's like, I never felt pretty, I never felt like I was pretty enough of the blow because an insecurity. So many women have UM that starts when they're very young, and we see that scene that is like very beautiful and sweet, where like joels like you are a pretty well one and gives her what she needs in that moment, and then we see that same refrain repeat itself when she's with Patrick, she calls him out of nowhere and it's like, am I ugly? Yeah? I have certainly done, and like like like, hold on, I just had a thought. I'm awful. Wait, you're also caught. You're calling attention to something too that I didn't even connect. But it's like that is a core issue of Joe and her relationship, which is that she uses her sexuality to gain attention and to make friends. Is essentially what he says, like, she'll like dangle like the thought of sex in front of people to like make friends, and that is like, obviously it's a very feminine struggle like that, Like every single woman who listens to this is going to be like, yes, there have been friends where a guy was my friend. I didn't want to date them, and then they sat being my friend and then you're like, oh, the only reason men want to be my friend is because there's the potential for me to kiss them but them Oh wow, pussy taga, Yes, pussy Taga Queen but yeah, that's definitely like the being pretty, being pretty, being fuckable. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's like that role, like feeling like you need to occupy that role. Fortunately, like some men are able to be your friend, but a lot of men, especially like kind of kind of aren't. Like I've had friendships that I assumed were friendships that once it was like I don't know, once I made it myself clear of like, oh no, that's not what I'm looking for here, they sort of disappear. You're just like or you see a girlfriend of yours who's like, you can tell they're not being clear about a relationship because they like this relationship hip and they're scared that if they say something about it, that friendship, which is such an unfair burdens and it's so many people have to deal with exactly, And it's very cool that this movie is essentially is like kind of delving into that in a very very subtle way. Yeah, it's like it's a it's it's not even a character flaw on Clementine's part, just like a very recognizable quality that's like, Okay, what you're doing is not the right thing to be doing. But I understand why you're doing it and it's sort of put upon you in this very complex way. What a GORERD character. Let's talk about Mary. Yeah, I have a question about Mary. Actually, so something about So my question about Mary is sorry writing is titled down because there needs to be. Hey, Hollywood, here's my pitch for a question about Mary. Um. Okay, we learned that she and Howard the doctor had a romantic Howard not Howard how Are the doctor whose last name I simply don't know how to pronounce. Um okay, So honestly, I personally feel like I'm on a first name basis with all of these characters. Okay, Howard how and Howard how to kistory, she chose to have all of her memories of him a race? Okay, but so that happens, But then how would that work? Because she works for him, he is essentially her boss, but all the memories of him she would have had to have a race, so like all of her working knowledge would also have had to have been raised because they work together. So basically, did she have to relearn her job from scratch? I mean, I personally think asking questions like this will break the movie down a little bit because I also just think about, like the guy calls it like brain damage essentially, but I do think about that. I'm like, this would never work. There's no like, once you really start to think about how this would work, it just can't because you're just gonna have random gaps and you're just missing very important pieces of but questions. You would have this memory of working there only when he's not there, which was you would think, would leave huge gaps in her memory of how to do her job. Also, like other people would, Yeah, Mark Ruffalo, he'd be like, this seems really messed up, Like why is this? Yeah, you're I think you're very right. I think she probably a question. Yeah, she must have gotten everything erased and then they just had to retrain her on her job, be like this is your first day. Meanwhile, she's actually been there for like two years. Where I let the movie gas light me a little bit on that one the same because the second you find out in that scene where is one of the only scenes where two women appear in the same scene where Kristen Dunce is chase Howard's wife's car because she sees them together. She knows they've been together. We don't know that yet, and then Mark Ruffalo leans on the horn to be like, yikes, boss, get out of there. But then I'm like, oh, well, then he would have to know. He would have to know there's no way, no, he he must know his wife obviously, but then he saw them kissing. But then if he's worked there for so long and she's worked there, he and Elijah Wood would have to know, like there's no because everyone gets some letters, and who would have done because he's the main technician. Yeah, I feel like Howard would have been able to kind of like he could get around. Yeah, I get around some of the normal stuff. That's true. Maybe this is this a good point to bring up in a SMR video? I really like, is there any good point there? Excuse you? There's a great a SMR Requests video. She's one of my favorite A smartists. That is a role play of you getting your brain wiped by this company. It is like one of the coolest, one of my favorite a SMR videos ever. It's just well done a SMR but it's called remember It's Okay to forget Memory eraser roleplay that has a ton of I think the last time I watched Eternal Sunshine was because I just watched this a SMR video. She's clearly one of her favorite movies. And she wipes your memories. You've in theory brought all these and she has all these objects that she taps on. It's an a SMR video and she's like, this is your excess coffee mug and then she taps on it for like four minutes and it's a really good one. That's great. Yeah, great theme, strong brand. I love that. Oh. I wanted to also how you said how Mary chose to have this procedure done. I do also feel like when you finally do listen to Mary's tape, Mary listening to her own tape, She's like, I can't do this and she starts crying. Also a moment where I'm like, God, what a great actress. Um Chris and Dons underappreciated. He's incredible in this is great. We've yeah, wow, se Spiderman two, Margot season three, She's a gift. But yeah, I have found you only hear a very short snippet and she starts kind of like being like you can't do this and starts breaking down, and You're like, this is clearly a coercive situation that she was like really didn't want to actually do, but because she's younger and so in love with this doctor, she lets it happen to herself. And I find that to be like heartbreaking, lay sad, and that's so common in that scenario where like she's his subordinate. Yeah, it's power much older. Yeah. Yeah, and he's doing it. I'm sure to take herself marriage, yeah, exactly, because his wife knows about this affair, and it seems like and this is getting several layers deeper than the movie, you know, has time to explain. But probably they're like, well, here's how we'll fix it for our marriage is we'll just have this young woman that'll help. I totally, I totally forgot about that large And then it's her action that prompts the end of the movie, which is she goes full of sage. Yeah, she's a leaker. She's a leaker. She's a little snug. Well look out, Chris. She pulls out the tampacs and elite. She's free blading information kind of free bleeding data. Right now, there's wat me hold on too. Let's not forget about free bleading. Coming back for a second. I think so I think I misunderstood. She doesn't choose to have this procedure done. He kind of does it. I think she I think she said, yeah, she says yes to it, but I think it's just a coercive Okay, I didn't pick up what it's. That's what it seems like, But there's really only a snippet where she's she's like, we agreed to it, blah blah blah, and he says like, you know, we agreed to this, and she's like, I can't. She breaks down crying, and you're like, yeah, she doesn't really want to do this, but he's essentially because you you have to if you want to. I mean, and it might even be like if you want to continue working here, because it sounds like, because we find out about her, she's also, in addition to like having a crush on this man, she's also very interested in the work they're doing. So it sounds like she probably wanted to stay working there. It sounds like she had greater aspirations and that the field blah blah blah. Yeah, it's a very complicated situation when you think about it. It's kind of like when I was in college and and uh, handsome Dan was my supervisor and my crush, but also I really loved public Radio, but also I mostly wanted to just be around handsome Dan. Yeah. Also it never happened. I'm so sorry, Thank you so much. I we don't spend that much time with Mary, but I think that she is similarly an interesting and well developed character as Clementine. Like I said, we don't we don't see as much of her, and we don't get to know her nearly as well, But I think the movie does take enough care with her to like to just develop her beyond like a very one dimensional. Yeah. You even see her in multiple environments where she's like really buttoned up, and they do a really good job of like very subtle. Oh my god, there's so many like little detail things that I was picking up on this last watch. But it's like there's a lot of just very like subtle things that she does. You see her buttoned up in the office environment, and her like kind of hovering over the doctor, and like anytime he touches her shoulder, she like really leans into it. And then when she's hanging out with Mark Ruffalo, she's like looks kind of like rocker chic and she's like drinking and really hanging out and so and but then you also like hear her like trying to develop her mind. And she's very passionate about this work. So she loves quote. Yeah, she loves quote. Such a twenty one year old girl thing to be like, I've got quotes. Tumbler, she's got a tumbler. Pinterest, she's got it, she's pinning, She's totally she's free blading. Yeah, her character is very interesting. The last thing, oh, this is the last thing that it's acknowledged. I just sort of kissed the mic a little bit gross is the mind funk of when like Clementine was sort of playing Joel's mom and then was in a memory like a friend her mom, Mom, you still want to suck me? Right? It was like just a fun mommy issue moment. Yeah, she does flash her underwear, um, which I'm not totally sure how I feel about that. I did motivated, and but it's also like, yeah, there are definitely moments like that in the film where you're like, oh, that's a little well, there's a moment where Clementine calls Joel a homophobic slur. Good not good, But also it was two. Yeah, there's things have changed, one of the few moments that does not hold up. Similarly, later on in the movie, Joel is explaining to Clementine. He's telling her, oh, I'm living with someone else, and she asks, oh, male or female, and he goes female, female, Like how dare you assume that I might be living and cohabitating romantically with a man, which also doesn't hold up the classics honestly. So here's what I think, though, is like, I think that does hold up. Not that it's like good, but it is like that is how people. It is representative of the I think those people still yeah, a sort of representative of the character yea as well, where he is uptight, not accepting of new things or people and sort of like I could ease. I mean, and it's not explored in anyway, but it's like I could see this guy in two thousand three being homophobic, Yeah, you know, at least casually homeless. Yeah, yeah, not even like in an overway. I just think I think those are things where it's like, those are just accurate depictions of how people can view the world and themselves, and that's like a natural reaction. Yeah, people will still to this day say the R word. But sometimes they'll comment on it and be like, oh my god, what I say that. But it's just like like you grow up in the times, you grow up and it's hard to let grow of certain things. Yeah, we all have a lot of work to do, and that's true. Fine lards, this movie hold up for me, I agree. Yeah, it's note a movie that necessarily you watch and you're like, wow, this movie is so empowering for women because it's not written by a woman. It's not direc to buy a woman. One of the main characters as a woman, but she's like the secondary character, also very white, very straight worth right, as most movies are. Yeah, but it is seen through the eyes of a man, and so you can't really it's like seen through this lens. So you're like, well, if it has to be empowering to women, then you're kind of that's not the purpose of it. Essentially, it's just to like help an neurotic man. Well if we're if yeah, I mean if that way, it's just sort of the Outour problem that we come up against a time and time again is that we can't necessarily knock Charlie Kaufman for plugging himself into a story or you know, like otors will very frequently in a way cast themselves as the lead, where most Charlie Coffman movies revolve around a middle aged ish white guy because that's what Charlie Kaufman is literally in the movie adaptation The Yeah, and these are great movies, but it's it just comes down to, like, Okay, that's fine, these are good movies. We can't be upset with Charlie Coffin for putting himself and reflecting his own experience as to an extent. But it just means that other people need to be given opportunities so that everyone is able to see themselves in the greater landscape. So there's also no excuse that every I think every character is a white person. Yeah, they're like, yeah, there's no excuse for that, but there are very few characters in the film. Yeah, yeah, there's mostly white guys. Anyways, shall we discuss whether or not the movie passes the Bactel tests? Yeah? So, I uh, I was curious about what you guys had to say because I was looking at it very closely and I was like, well, there's only a kind scenes in which two female characters interact. One of them is Clementine as Mrs Hamlin Roles mom's friend. Yeah, it's confusing, and his mom is also there. We hardly see her on screen. We hear her voice quite a bit more than we see her, and she's like talking past Clementine, she's not really talking to her. Yeah. Well, there's a few moments where she's like, Oh, I'm gonna go stir with the soup and get a salad bowl. Can you keep an eye on jewel? So Clementine's like sure, and then she's like, he just likes to be near me. Later she comes back and she's talking about string beans and she's like, is he okay? Well washed them? And then later someone's talking about a cocktail. I think this movie, in spite of while we could argue that passes if I don't think it does, it's really hard to tell. But then so, but you wouldn't count when Kirsten Dunce's voiceover is speaking to Clementine before, does that happen? Yeah, it happens. It's weird. But she's in the car and she opens up the letter and hereson Dunce is like, and she's not talking about a relationship or a man. She's just not talking about man. She's talking about the company and what they've done and to do right by it. But then but because it's a letter, she's not like really directly, he is not responding back right now. It's so crazy because I'm like, I'm like grasping a straws and I'm like that, I'm like that is this is the one time I'm hearing like two female voices like actually like saying staces. That's like one of them against each other. That's like unfortunate about this movie because and then there's a scene where Mary and Howard's wife are in the same scene, but they're talking about Howard. They're talking about but does not pass. So I want to throw myself out a window. It makes me frustrated because there are crazy yeah, like, there are opportunities for this to happen, and it simply doesn't mm hmm. Frustrating. I think we could argue that the memory scene with the mom and the friend passes on a technicality, but I would say, because we're in a man's memory, I know that's what's also crazy, and everything is technically through. Yeah, males perspective, right, that's also not really misses Hamlin, but does that matter? And then also like the whole context of their conversation is like we have to make sure jewels near me because he always likes to be nearest mom. And they hardly have any interaction where they're we actually see them on screen talking and the things that they are talking about that arna man are as we often notice on the podcasting Cooking. Yeah, very domestic things. Yeah, I'm gonna say as are our definition of the test evolves. For me, it does not pass. I would agree with that. Yeah, it just doesn't. It doesn't feel you could you you can make the argument, but for me, it doesn't pass. Which because there's no mean, mean, full interaction between two women in this movie, right, maybe that's something that we should because to figure out, like what is our definition of it, because so many horrible movies pass it on technicalities that are really frustrating. So maybe it's maybe the word meaningful is like just like a meaningful interaction between two women that isn't about a man, or like something that plot the name caveat, like the two characters have to be important enough that we would know their names. Is an example of like are they meaningful enough characters like and then yeah, I think we could add the caveat is it a meaningful conversation that is important to the story, and like the progression of the plot, don't you Also, this is like totally different thing. But I just often think about male writers of that era who do really good work, but they're just going to be a nately sexist. They're not going to be creating worlds where women are the focus. It's they think of the world a male perspective and they're so eased to that. So it's I just I feel I feel like that is a hard place to You're you're rarely going to see someone breaking out of that. Still a lot of work to be done. Let's write the movie on ourn't nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its portrayal of women. I'm going to give it. This was a tricky one because while Clementine is a very well developed character, although it is through the lens of like how Joel sees her in his memory, so it's already kind of like skewed a little bit. She is the one who comes up with the idea to be like, hey, what if you hide me in your other memories or like hide me in your subconscious and it's like, wow, that's a really great idea. It's her idea, So that's cool that at least she has given something like that. But yet, despite her being well developed, I think it's going to get like a three a half from me. Is that too high? Is that too low? Because yeah, she's well developed. But I don't watch this and think like, wow, how I feel so empowered as a woman, or like I do think it's a good example of a depiction of a hetero relationship that is very white and very straight in the sense that she is well developed enough that we at least understand why these two characters like each other. But I think it holds up. I think it's a good script. I think it's a good story. Yeah, I don't know. Three point five nipples is just what's are you giving your nips too? I'm giving my nips to to to Clementine, one to Mary, and then a half nipple to m Carrie, who we do not talk about at all, but she is. She's friends with Joel, like she's in a relationship they would cross. Exhausted, She's exhausted and yeah, half nipple for her, just because we didn't get to talk about her. I'm going to give it four. I'll docket one for the inclusion stuff that we talked about that there are certainly in a movie that takes place in New York. Again, it's just like, oh, the whitest New York you've ever seen, like the New York only existing movies and for the few two thousand and four elements it has um. And also just like because the ratio of significant female characters versus significant male characters, I'm pretty sure it's like I can think of four very significant men two women. Yeah, you've got Clementine and Mary, and you've got Howard Patrick, Mark Rufflo, whose name I truly do not know, but only because I'm in love with him as Mark Rufflo and Joel So so the ratio bad, but I mean, I think that the way like, I'm not necessarily looking to feel empowered as a woman watching this movie. I'm just but this movie makes me feel seen in ways that I wouldn't feel most times watching a movie. And is it partially because I'm a white head old lady. Sure, but for this movie, it's like I can connect with it so much, and I do feel seen by it, and I want that for everyone. You know, everyone should have a movie they can watch and feel seen. But I just I think Clementine is such an interesting character who is very like layered and everything we've discussed basically um, but it's cool to see that trope commented upon in such an overt way, broken down to the point where it's like, yes, some women do act like this, but it is a mask for something else, and it's a mask you come by honestly, because it's sort of like put upon you, as like, okay, well here is a way I can act in order to seem more pleasing to the male case anyways, for from me two to Climb two to Mark Ruffalo four nips, okay, what do you? What say you? I would give it also for nipples. It's pretty much for very similar reasons. I think that although Clementine is simultaneously is like a very flawed character, I think she's portrayed very accurately. You see her in like many different ways. And as a woman viewing this film, I often see films or television and I feel like women are like misunderstood, misrepresented or treated like objects or disrespectfully and it doesn't really feel like that is the female purpose in this movie, which is really nice. Um, And like Jamie said, it makes as a woman, makes me feel like heard and paid attention to and cared for. And yeah, also like Kirsten Dunn's character and the wife's character and David Cross's wife, that character Carrie, all those people, you see them struggling, which I think is a really nice thing to see because instead of struggling, oftentimes you see women being like a pain in the ass. And to see women's struggle is that is something that makes you feel like you're coming from a place of understanding. And also they're all just like so fucking hot. They're also hot, Oh god, everyone is very except for Elijah Wood, who I will say again looks like ship in this movie looks and and also his characters terrible. So I don't feel that's Yeah, so I'll give one nipple to each woman. Yea, Kate, thank you so much for being here in town. Yeah, where can we find you on social medes? Wow? Um, you can follow at Good Good Comedy. That's on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, and then me personally, I'm I don't really use social media that much. But my name is Kate Banford, so just you know at Kate band and Kate Banford and if you're in if you're ever in Philly A good yeah, the best, it's the best. It's wonderful. We try to be very representative as well. You do a great job. You can follow the betel Cast on social media. You can give us five dollars a month or more just to say just because, but also on our Matreon because that will enable you to get to bonus episodes of the Packetel Cast every single month. You can also buy our merch online. Other than that, Jamie, I just want you to know that I will never erase any memories of you. I'll never erase you either. Oh my God, love you, Love you alright. Bye,