Tina Swithin & Antisocial Personality Disorders

00:00:06
Speaker 1: What is up all of my little babies? It is yours truly, Laala Kent. This is the Give Them Lalla Podcast. You just landed from outer space and thought where am I? What am I listening to? Just give them La La? Obviously, what's up, Jess? How you doing? Though?

00:00:22
Speaker 2: I'm good, Laala? How are you today?

00:00:26
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a fucking vibe today.

00:00:30
Speaker 2: I can tell you're glowing. Tell us why give me the secret?

00:00:33
Speaker 1: Wait? Really?

00:00:33
Speaker 3: Am? Yeah?

00:00:34
Speaker 1: You actually are? Okay. So I did an entire just give them Laala skin routine last night. Usually with my skincare routine, even with my cakeup, like you know, I mix my match, just switch it up sometimes. Last night it was strictly and only give them La La skin from the face wash to the moisturizer. I did my mask Ooh okay, obviously stay calm, am, I looking calm.

00:01:00
Speaker 2: You're looking calm and sounding calm.

00:01:02
Speaker 1: Well I love that. Yes, okay, so that's why you're glowing. That's why I'm glowing, which leads me to my next very exciting news. I want to give my podcast listeners twenty percent off of give Them Laala. So if you go to give them Laala dot com and use discount code podcast twenty This is exclusive for my podcast listeners. Yo, welcome twenty percent off. Fill up your cart, don't mess up, don't mess up, don't mess up. The next thing, let's talk about the tour. If you haven't, I know this is all things. Give them Lala that, Give them La La. Brand new tour is coming up. If you haven't purchased your tickets, go to give them live dot com. We're kicking off the tour in Irvine. Then we're going to Fort Lauderdale, Clearwater, Orlando, Hotlanta, Nashville, New Orleans, Huon, Austin, and we will wrap it up in Dallas, Texas. So exciting. Should I wear cowboy boots when I'm in Texas? For Houston, Austin, Dallas, I feel like I should.

00:02:09
Speaker 2: You should, and honestly probably for Nashville as well.

00:02:12
Speaker 1: Oh that's right, because they're kind of hell be sad. No matter where you're from, you just can't, right, That's like the center of country music. Yeah. Can I tell you what I want to do in Nashville? Yes? Is Carrie Underwood from Nashville. She is, Okay, So at the end of every city, I want to play like a song by an artist that's from that city, but have it be like super badass. So I want to play Carrie Underwood's Ah Doug Cheats at the very end like a little sing along. I feel like that would be fun.

00:02:54
Speaker 2: I love that at the end. Or do you walk out to it?

00:02:58
Speaker 1: Ooh, Jessica. These are all things that we're gonna have to keep a secret so that my people show up and are super surprised.

00:03:07
Speaker 2: Love that.

00:03:07
Speaker 1: I love that too, So again, get your your beauty goods at give them Lala dot com, use podcast twenty for twenty percent off and go to give them live to get your tour tickets so that I can play with you. Do we have voicemails? We do. Let's do voicemails before we have my epic guest on. We have Tina Swiften on the podcast today. She is super inspirational and she is an expert on narcissism. And I have gotten so many dms about how people are like, please have someone on to talk about narcissism because it is everywhere right now and no one talks about it. So we're going to talk about it. Yeah, So after we do the voicemails. We'll take a short break and then we'll have Tina on.

00:03:53
Speaker 4: Hey Lala, this is Ray. I'm from Texas. I have a best friend who is an alcoholic in recovery. She's almost two years sober, and my brother is currently in rehab and I was just wondering what is some of the best ways that I can support them and their journey into being sober. Thank you so much.

00:04:22
Speaker 1: I love you, Ray, I love this question. Congratulations to your friend who has two years that's incredible. And your brother who's being proactive and getting help. I'm sending him all of my love and positive vibes and prayers. I would say that supporting them would be first of all, not taking them anywhere that they're triggered to drink. Don't keep alcohol in your house or if you're a drinker, if they come over, put it away. You just don't want them to feel like it's there's the bottle and it it's talking to me and it is like I'm feeding for it. You know, my mouth starts watering. And also, I think it's a tremendous support. I don't know if your friend is in the program or if your brother will be in a program. I'm a firm believer of the program. If they are, I would say, offer to go to an open meeting. And open meeting is where you can take someone with you who may or may not be sober and just be that support of someone who when they are with you, it's not someone who they went and drank or were drinking with. It's really hard to be a support to someone who is an alcoholic. It really is, because you feel like you're walking on eggshells. I've watched it with people around me. They're like, I do you care if I drink right now? And I would say, my big, big, biggest thing, ask them, how can I support you in this moment? I love that communication. Communication. They may say, I just want you to proceed as usual. I don't want to be like this weirdo where it's like you feel like you have to hide your bottles. You know they may not want you to do that, so ask them. I hope that this was helpful. Was this helpful to you, Jess?

00:06:15
Speaker 5: It was helpful because I actually have alcoholics in my family who are out alcoholics who are you know, in recovery and not my immediate family, my bigger circle family, and that's really helpful. I've never gone to an open meeting, and I've actually never gone to alan On.

00:06:33
Speaker 2: That's what it's called correct, Yes, is that?

00:06:35
Speaker 5: How do you feel that's been helpful for people in your life if they've gone or.

00:06:39
Speaker 1: You know, I have never been to an alan On meeting, and I don't have anyone in my circle that's been to an alan On meeting, but I have friends that have been, and they say that it's extremely helpful because you're placing yourself in a room full of people who understand you know, you could be from completely different backgrounds, places, whatever it may be, and you're there for one purpose and one purpose only, and it's the same as everyone else in the room. Yeah, that makes you feel like you have a bond with people. And I'm a firm believer of if you're recovering from drugs or alcohol, or you have been affected by someone who's an addict, get in a room. Don't let them scare you. Because it doesn't look like it looks on TV. But you actually feel leaving, You leave feeling amazing.

00:07:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it does look scary on TV.

00:07:32
Speaker 5: It looks very serious and dark, and I always picture it taking place in a church, and I'm like.

00:07:37
Speaker 1: Wells and it takes. There are some that take place at a park, you know, like, yeah, it's there are donuts, which is awesome. Okay, I'm there. Love the donuts coomy, Like, I love that part. But no, there's like I always get a good chuckle out of the meetings, you know, because it's just people telling their stories who have come out on top, and you're like, oh my gosh, the fact that we're talking about such a serious topic but we're remembering it and we can like get a laugh out of it. Yeah, because we've come so far. Get in the rooms. Get in the rooms. That's great. And by the way, you can do it on Zoom now too, you don't even have to be physically in the room.

00:08:17
Speaker 2: That's great.

00:08:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been zooming. I've been zooming for quite some time. I love it at Zoom. It's funny because you look at all the squares and everyone's like in their bathroom, Like, well, this is such a vibe.

00:08:31
Speaker 5: So you've been in perfectly with your gratolic bathroom.

00:08:34
Speaker 1: We love that. Okay.

00:08:36
Speaker 3: Next voicemail, Hi, Lala, this is Anna and I wanted to give you a huge. Thank you for having on Bobby Brink and shedding light on animal issues, plus your support and concern for animal welfare shows so much about you and I really appreciate that. And a question I have for you is what is something or different things that you're really looking forward to doing with when she's older. I think every stage is fun, every age is fun. It's all wonderful and it is an honor to be a parent. So I am so happy that you have her and I love hearing about her. So thank you and take care bye.

00:09:16
Speaker 1: Lalla Anna. Thank you so much for calling in. I'm thrilled that you enjoyed the Bobby Brink podcast. That was one that I was super excited for because I don't think that animals in captivity is spoken about nearly enough. It's only really a well known thing if you're crazy about like freeing the orcas, let the big cats go, all of the above. With Ocean, I will definitely be taking her when she can walk to empty the tanks protests, because before COVID, I used to do that all the time, and I was this like I would literally have like head to toe free the orcas, Garret. I would walk on the Santa Monica Pierre and be like, we wouldn't keep your kids in bathtubs? Why would you keep the orcas in a tang would you really want?

00:10:05
Speaker 6: Like?

00:10:05
Speaker 2: Yes, person where they're in, the.

00:10:07
Speaker 1: Person on the Santa Monica pre handing out flyers, one guy through his to the ground. And that's the guy when I started because I was like, how would you feel if I kept you in a bathtub for your entire life? Yeah, that's what they do to these orcas. So what they do to these whales, you know, yeah, dolphins. So I picked it up and I handed in and I said, if you don't want it, throw it away behind my back. You know, I don't do it right in front of you. But I will definitely be taking her to do all of that stuff, you know. That's sweet. I'll take her to fucksy world protests. Now.

00:10:45
Speaker 2: I love that you and your mom bondo for that too. That's a great thing.

00:10:48
Speaker 1: Well leave the words for the Humane Society. So she's like all about being a part of the greatness that is the well being of animals. Yeah, but the one thing that I'm so I have to share this about ocean. Ocean has sixteeth. Now, okay, and she's a biter. She's a biter. I don't know how to stop her from doing it. She's only nine months and I looked at my arm the other day. I had her in my lap and I was trying to file her nails down because anyone who has babies just come. I'm telling you, you have to do it like every other day because the corners grow and she rubs her eyes so she'll have like a little nick in the corner of her eye. And that's what I know. I need to find the culprit of this. So I file her nails and she's biting my arm. I have bite marks up and down my arm and I don't know how to stop it. So if anybody knows how to stop a ten month old almost from biting, please call into eight six y six La La Pod. I need to know.

00:11:46
Speaker 2: I'm dying to hear this.

00:11:47
Speaker 1: So she's a bier right now. But when she's able, I really want to put her into co ed soccer because there's something about the little shin pads that make me so happy.

00:11:56
Speaker 2: Running around and then kicking into the wrong goal.

00:12:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, so cute. That's what I'm looking forward to the most is putting her in sports that is going to be really cute. Yes, and going to practice and setting out my fold out chair and like it's my day to do treats. Soccer mom, Yes, I can't wait. And every Saturday is game day. I'll get at her level and be like, you got this, babe, You've got this. I may even be the coach if they'd let me.

00:12:28
Speaker 2: Oh, that would be so fun.

00:12:31
Speaker 1: That would be so cool.

00:12:32
Speaker 2: Did you play soccer?

00:12:33
Speaker 1: I played everything. I don't know if my mom was like just trying to get me out of the house, but I literally never had five minutes. I was like, really, get your tennis racket, and then make sure you have your te ball stuff, and do you have your stuff for dance, and then after that we'll headed out to play some more volleyball. And I didn't have five minutes.

00:12:52
Speaker 2: Oh man, it was exhausting.

00:12:55
Speaker 5: You tried it all, and so at least your mom could say, well, she's not destined to be in the Olympics because we tried it and it didn't work out.

00:13:03
Speaker 1: We tried everything, And can I tell you what I love about my mom is there were things like piano. I wanted to do piano I told my dad I wanted a baby grand He got it for me so sweet. And I told my mom I hated piano, and she said, you committed to it, so you will continue to do it. And she gave me a date. We looked at the calendar and she said, if you don't like it at this time, what was it like?

00:13:25
Speaker 7: A year?

00:13:26
Speaker 1: I think I have to do it for a whole year. If you don't like it at this time next year, then you can stop. And she made me go.

00:13:33
Speaker 2: And did that time hit the next year? And you were like, great, can and I can stop?

00:13:36
Speaker 1: Got the fuck out. And now I watch Alicia Keys and I'm like, why did I not keep doing it? As if I was ever going to be Alicia Keys it could have been. No, that's God given. You can't. You can't learn that shit, Jess, You could, can you? I don't know. No, I don't know either. Yeah, like you can't just like learn to be Selene Deon, Like God gave that to you. You're Celene deonr Tank.

00:14:00
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, last voicemail.

00:14:03
Speaker 7: Hey Laala, this is Erica calling from Chicago, Illinois. I absolutely love the podcast, love listening to you and love how absolutely badass and you have become after everything that's kind of going on in your life. But anyway, I wanted to quickly ask, where are you going to have merch come out? I'm so excited to see what else you come out with. I didn't get a chance to get a brand new sweatshirt since they were sold out, so I absolutely love if you came out with new merch. Thank you. Can't wait to listen to next week's podcast.

00:14:36
Speaker 1: Erica. I am so glad that you like the merch. The merch is something I'm proud of. I think it's super cute. I was obsessed with the fact that everyone loved the brand new merch, and we're coming out with it again, like this was like a little test run. Let's see how it does. I'm all about let's see how it does. Do people fuck with it? People fucks with it. Yeah, So we're coming out with more brand new hoodies, different colors. I think people liked the light pink, so we'll come back with that too, And then I have a really amazing merch coming out that will also be available on tour.

00:15:11
Speaker 3: Woo.

00:15:12
Speaker 2: It's so good, guys, it's so good good.

00:15:15
Speaker 1: I know the merch is everything. So thank you so much for asking about the merch Erica. I'm so happy you like it. We are going to cut to a short break and we wi bit bit bit, and when we come back, we have Tina swiftin. All right, you guys, we are back and this is a podcast episode and guest that so many of you have been begging for and I'm so excited that it's finally happening. We have Tina Swiften and she is an expert on narcissism. So Tina, welcome to the Give Them While of podcast.

00:15:53
Speaker 6: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here because I've followed a little bit of you know that it's becomes such a topic in today's world. You know, sometimes it's overused and misused. But I'm overall so thankful that this topic has had such a presence because it's so important that we're talking about it, that we're educating in the next generation on it. Because I surely wasn't aware of the red flags and all of those things, which is how I ended up in this situation. But here we are, and I'm excited.

00:16:34
Speaker 1: I'm so excited as well. So I know a bit about your background and how you became an expert on narcissism and would you say that this is something that you became passionate about and warning people after your story? How what happened in your life where you realized you were with a narcissist, knew you had to get out walk us down that road with you.

00:16:57
Speaker 6: I met a person back in two thousand. I was actually twenty six years old. Now what I see it to be as love bombing. Back then, I just thought, Wow, I am finally in an adult relationship with a man who knows how to treat someone. And for me, it wasn't about the material things, it wasn't about the money. It was very much, you know, he seemed to care, you know, to an extreme amount, something I had never experienced before, and you know, hanging on my every word and wanting to know everything about me. And I felt like, you know, I was up on a pedestal and that someone you know, finally accepted me and was loving me for who I am. And it was a whirlwind romance.

00:17:57
Speaker 1: You know.

00:17:57
Speaker 6: If I mentioned, you know, I would love to go to Seattle the next day, I would have plane tickets on my pillow to go to Seattle. You know, if I happened to walk by a store and see a pair of shoes and comment on them, they would be wrapped, you know, and presented to me the next day. It was overwhelming. Now I understand what love bombing is. That was the goal. Your head is spinning, you can't you know, you're so that the attention is so much that you truly can't think, And that's their goal. So yeah, I found myself in this whirlwind romance that moved so fast.

00:18:42
Speaker 1: I relate to your story. I feel like you're actually telling mine and with people who have you know, I've shared a little bit about my experience with my relationship and how it came to be and how it ended, and there are so many women who have had the exact same thing. And I think that's why, you know, they've been begging for certain guests on the podcast. So at what point in time you did you have children with this person?

00:19:13
Speaker 6: So we did. We were married in a year and a half, and you know, in line with the whirlwind romance, he wisked me away to Maui and proposed to me while we were there. And then the next line after the proposal was let's just get married while we're here and not tell anybody. So we got married three days later in Maui, and you know, it's this, You're caught up in this. You know, it's hard to explain to people. You know, this love bombing. This you feel it's authentic, you believe it's real, but it's all a game to the other party, and that's hard to come to grips with that. You know, you're falling in love with a facade. Hindsight on that is twenty twenty. So we got married in Maui in two thousand and one, and then you slowly this shift starts happening. You know, in the beginning, the good is up here, and you know, then you start seeing little things creep in and what I can now see as red flags. But when you're in it, you're kind of I remember thinking to myself, no one's perfect, and we all have our things, and you those that's where the excuses start, and you go, you know, if I'm expecting perfection, I'm being unrealistic. You know, we all bring our baggage in and you excuse away those little things that start creeping in. And for most people who have been targeted by a narcissist. They go after people who are the exact opposite of themselves, who exude positivity and confidence and all of those, you know, the positive traits honesty, compassion, empathy, and so you know, when those little things creep in, all of those traits that we as targets bring into that equation work in their favor. So you excuse those things, and as time goes on, those things start to build a little bit. But by the time you recognize that there's a serious problem, you know, you're in such a deep fog because it's confusing. You know, when the big red flags present themselves, you go back to but he was such an amazing person, and he said these things and he did these things, And we're projecting our own authentic, positive qualities onto someone who's not deserving of those things. So that's another area where we'rek's using bad behavior and going but at his pore, I know who he is. He's all those things he sold me on in the beginning. And then by the time the bad, you know, outweighs the good and that pendulum shifts, you're so deep into it and in this state of confusion that you know, you start thinking am I the problem, and that's part of the psychological manipulating and gas lighting that takes place over time. It's insidious, It creeps in and you don't even recognize what it is because you know, we've never been taught any of these things. We're only now starting to talk about narcissistic abuse and psychological abuse and emotional manipulation.

00:22:50
Speaker 4: You know.

00:22:51
Speaker 6: I can think back to my marriage two thousand and eight. I found myself in a really dark place in my marriage because the lies had presented themselves to the point where I couldn't deny them. I found out he had ran us up over a million dollars in debt. I can't even to this day grasp that dollar amount when it comes to debt. I mean that I don't like having a credit card with five thousand dollars, you know, owing to somebody. So to find out that I don't even know who I married, who I fell in love with, that I fell in love with a facade, a con artist. But by the time reality truly hit me in the face and I couldn't deny it or excuse it anymore. I had two little girls that were under the age of two and four. I mean they were babies, and over time the uneven playing field and the dynamic and I love what you talk about about. You know, you all you had a plan b you you know, financially, had secured yourselves. I that's one of the biggest mistakes I ever made, was completely turning over the financial situation to my husband. So by the time, you know, two thousand and eight came and I just I truly thought it was me like, I'm going to go to counseling. I'm going to figure out what what I what I'm doing. You know what's wrong?

00:24:33
Speaker 1: Was that his idea for you to go see a therapist.

00:24:36
Speaker 6: I had been begging for us to go to couples therapy forever, and he would constantly tell me, these aren't my issues. You know, your mom was bipolar. Your you know you have a history of mental illness in your family. You know, to him, he knew that my biggest button was my mom and bipolar. She committed suicide, and he knew, you know, they know where your jugular is emotionary, and so if I cried over our dog dying, he would say, you're bipolar. You know, you should look into this. So over time and he knew that was my greatest fear, was turning out like my mom, and he knew how to use that in a way to destroy me. So by the time I ended up on a therapist couch, it was after begging him for a long time to go to therapy with me and him refusing. And I still remember calling around randomly just trying to find a therapist, and this lady actually answered the phone and said, I had a cancelation today this afternoon. If you want to come in today, let's talk. And I went in there and I just remember being so distraught and her she heard me. I emotionally vomited in this woman's office and basically she said to me, you're not the problem. And I can't diagnose this person. I don't know him, but I want you to read something. And she walked across the room, brought back the DSM five and basically had me read the excerpt on narcissistic personality disorder.

00:26:32
Speaker 1: Wow. The fact that she that it shook because what I've read and I don't know if this is correct, but there are not many therapists. I believe it was around five percent of therapists are actually familiar and well versed in narcissism.

00:26:47
Speaker 6: Right, So they're training and I've talked to a lot of psychologists about this. They skim right past personality disorders. I mean, they read the textbook definition of what it means. But in my experience, unless a therapist has personally walked this path, either with a narcissistic parent or a partner or a family member, I don't think they can truly get, you know, the intricacies that are in play in these situations. So now I understand that I found the rare unicorn of the therapy world. And in sure enough, it was because this lady had personally experienced it in her life. But here's the thing. When she told me that, and I used to be a fixer, and so when she told me this is what you're dealing with, I actually got excited. I was like, oh my god, we have a label, we have a title.

00:27:50
Speaker 1: What are we going to do?

00:27:51
Speaker 6: How do we fix him?

00:27:52
Speaker 1: Right? Like you thought it was a project, right, And.

00:27:56
Speaker 6: So now I can look back and go, oh, you have sweet little like I just want to go back in time and hug myself and go, h you know. I actually went home to him that night and said she thinks you're a narcissist, Like, let's fix this, and so we looked it up together, we googled it, and back then we're talking two thousand and eight, there was nothing out there on this topic. You know, you could find the definition of it, but no one was talking about it. There were no resources. And so I still remember when he read the descriptor and he goes, well, you know, that sounds like my dad, but that doesn't sound like me. But even still back then, in my rose colored glasses optimistic mind, I was like, Okay, we are making progress because he and his dad are the same person. So if he has recognized this in his dad, we are on the right track, right, Yeah.

00:28:58
Speaker 1: And is narcissism something that can be cured?

00:29:02
Speaker 6: No, zero cure there. And I'll tell you, with the healing that I've done and now that my kids are safe, I have compassion. I do because I can't imagine, you know, having any type of diagnosis where someone tells me there's literally nothing we can do for you. You know, there's no And I want to preface I'm not a mental health professional. I'm not qualified to diagnose anybody. Obviously, much of this is my own research over the past decade and learned experience. But you know, you a therapist, all they can do with a narcissist is teach them essentially how to act. So they're actors in the world. They're going out there and they're role playing.

00:29:53
Speaker 4: You know.

00:29:54
Speaker 6: I've talked to narcissists who say, if I'm going to a wedding, I'll watch a wedding scene on TV to study how people act at weddings so I know, or at funerals, like what is the appropriate because they truly aren't capable of connecting to that level to where it just comes naturally to them. They truly do, you know, study, And it's true of sociopaths, and I think with the narcissist, the higher they are on the scale of narcissism, the more that applies to where they truly they are actors. They're walking through life, playing everybody around them. It's like a big chess game to them.

00:30:41
Speaker 1: Like I said, I've done some research. Obviously, you're the expert in this between the two of us, and I'm sure a lot of others. But I've been following this doctor on social media and she describes narcissist as using people like you and I as an energy source basically morph into whoever you are to get what they need. And they have they don't have that part of them where they can have empathy or sympathy. It's always what can you do for me? And they will stop at nothing to make sure that they are never seen for who they truly are, right.

00:31:20
Speaker 6: And they become you know, I know, looking back, you know I was very you know, I was the social one. He was very socially awkward, and so he gravitated towards people me or other you know, I can't say friends, because any of his friends or their friends are very superficial. It's very surface level. It is what can you do for me? And they have the ability to walk into a crowd at a dinner party or whatnot, and they know who to let know they're going to pick up the tab and pay for everybody. You know, it's who's going to so advance them or tell everybody or they can impress. I mean, it's from a psychological standpoint, it's absolutely fascinating to watch and to study, but when it's your life, there's nothing fascinating about it.

00:32:17
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more and you know, you said something that I relate to when you started talking about your story. It's a whirlwind and before you know it, you're so deep into it. And do you think once you had kids is when you started seeing things a little bit differently where you I feel like children really open our eyes as mothers. There's just something that happens to us where we're just hyper sensitive to what's going on in the world and what's going on in our home. Did that happen to you?

00:32:54
Speaker 6: Absolutely? My mind was obsessed with food and body image and you know, buying me books on the perfect abs two weeks after I had had a C section and given birth, you know. So so when all of those things that I had lived and hurt me so deeply started affecting my daughters, like when he would say, are you going to really let her eat fetucini? And she was four, that's where the mama bear and me went, oh, no, you're not. You know, when it's one thing if I'm in the fog and I am experiencing this psychological abuse and emotional abuse, but you mess with my little girls and you have no idea. The claws are out. And those were my wake up calls. Was you know, when I and when I would realized that. You know, for one, he was gone all the time, so I was I considered my nanny as my co parent.

00:33:59
Speaker 1: You know, I had an appointment.

00:34:01
Speaker 6: If I had to go anywhere I called my nanny, I would. He would have been so far down on my list of resources during my marriage, for one, because I didn't trust that he could be present with them. He was going to be on the phone, he was going to be on the computer, he was going to be trying to run on the treadmill, you know, while my two year old's choking. So it was you know, during my marriage, I was able to shelter my daughters from so much, but as they got older and more aware, when I started realizing that they were going to be viewing how he spoke to me, what he did to me, and thinking that that was normal and that I was creating a foundation for my little girls to grow go up into the world and feel that this was normal and this is what marriage was about. That's where it really hit me hard. And you know, after I heard those words from my thererapist, you know that he was likely a narcissist or she even said possibly a sociopath.

00:35:06
Speaker 1: I've heard they go from from therapists, like I said, the small percentage that are very well versed on this topic. They have said narcissism and sociopaths go hand in hand.

00:35:18
Speaker 6: So not all narcissists are sociopaths, but all sociopaths are narcissists.

00:35:25
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for clarifying.

00:35:27
Speaker 6: That it's it's anti social personality disorder. They're all in the same clump of cluster B disorders, so it's histrionic, borderline narcissism, and then antisocial, which the street term for that is sociopath. And yeah, so you know now, looking back, I truly do believe my ex is probably more in that anti social category, but again, not qualified to diagnose him.

00:35:56
Speaker 1: But yeah, I love what you said about your children and how I get it. Mama bear is a real thing. My claws come out to You can do whatever you want to me, but when it comes to ocean, I will claw your eyes out. So you sitting there going I will be damned if my children grow up and think that this is how a man should be treating them. Was there ever a part of you that said, you know, I need to protect him, because I don't want to speak on the child or the father of my child this way, Like was there a part of you that was that was nervous, like you wanted to create him in this light where they didn't think a certain way about him, or were you so gung ho about I can't let my child find someone like this and think that it's healthy.

00:36:58
Speaker 6: So I navigated that so carefully, because you know, I back then, truly I understood narcissism enough to know what I was dealing with. I had no idea that once the separation started that my children would become ponds. I was naive in believing that because he had zero connection with them during the marriage, zero bond, zero any interaction unless people were around or a camera I was on that was And so I didn't really I hadn't put all those pieces together. So in my naive mind, I thought, when we separate, he's going to be forced to step up to the plate and be a dad because he's going to have to be one on one with them. I didn't understand how dangerous that actually is. Once I started educating myself on that, and I refer to it as post separation abuse, I actually have a people can look it up. It's postseparation abuse dot com. It's literally the playbook of the narcissist. I didn't realize. I thought that we're going to get divorced, and I'm going to get the kids like ninety percent of the time, because I've raised them ninety nine percent of the time, So why wouldn't we just do that. I didn't think he'd want anything to do with them. I didn't realize that the playbook of the narcissist is to come for the kids because they know that's the number one way to hurt you, but to maintain control, and so the children become their pawns and their weapons. And I had no idea. So once I started realizing that the family court system didn't care that he had never participated, all they cared about was that he showed up. You know, there's so many deadbeat parents in the system that the narcissist gets five gold stars in the eyes of the court many times. You know, it's not the end all be all. It takes time to chip away at that. But initially they were willing to give him a chance to be a parent even though he hadn't, and that was probably the biggest gut punch for me of all, and I, you know, have never I was raised by my dad, and so my strategy and it wasn't strategy at the time, but it was just very much educating my daughters on what red flags are in general, whether we're talking about the three year old in preschool who pulled her hair or you know, the six year old who stole a cookie out of her lunch box. You know, it became you know, what are boundaries where are I have boundaries that are mental. I have boundaries that are mo I have boundaries that are physical. You know, teaching my daughters all of the lessons that I didn't learn which allowed me to end up with this type of person, and instilling in her in them what healthy looks like. And so if I were in a restaurant and someone was speaking very poorly to a waitress, I would bring that up in conversation with my kids and say, when someone speaks to any human like that, that is a huge red flag for me in that person. And so I used every day conversations with my kids at their level, whether it was TV shows or something we heard on the radio, to teach them what healthy looks like, and then to also model it myself and letting them know that, you know, when you talk, mom is here, I am engaged, I am listening, I will your voice is the most important voice in my world. And you know, there's a lot of you. It's exhausting because you're countering the damage that the narcissist is doing to them. But I am a firm believer that a child only needs one healthy parent, one rock to turn out okay, even if you do have a narcissist or a sociopath on the other end. So my strategy has always been to, you know, teach them the lessons I wish I would have had, but never directed to their dad. But I will tell you, when they started connecting the dots on their own, it was more powerful than anything I could have ever said.

00:41:48
Speaker 1: Wow, that just gave me chills. And how old are your children now?

00:41:53
Speaker 6: We just went and looked at colleges in San Francisco this weekend.

00:41:57
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, they're they're grown up.

00:42:02
Speaker 6: Yeah, almost fifteen and almost seventeen.

00:42:04
Speaker 1: Well, I want to take a short break and then I want to come back and pick your brain somewhere, So we'll be right back with Tina Swan. We are back with someone who is absolutely brilliant in my eyes. And again, you guys have been begging for Tina Swan and here she is. Hi, Tina hy So you just sent you just went and looked at colleges. I'm sure that that was beyond hard? Was it?

00:42:36
Speaker 6: It is? But I am you know it goes back to I truly believe takes one healthy parent. And you know, I am a success story in family court because of the way I approached it, because of the way I navigated it, and my kids are safe today. We've I successfully terminated did his parntal rights, which is almost unheard of in the family court system.

00:43:07
Speaker 1: Can you how long did that take you to? I mean, I know it was a long journey for you. Do you mind me asking did your ex was? I know that he wasn't present, but along with him not being present, was there any you know, drug or alcohol abuse, sex addiction was there? And like what else can you tell us that that he kind? Like what did he possess in this narcissistic behavior?

00:43:38
Speaker 6: So when our custody battle started, he was actually going for full custody. He wanted to take.

00:43:45
Speaker 1: My daughter custody.

00:43:47
Speaker 6: He would have rather paid a nanny to raise my kids because he knew that's that would hurt me. So I have an autoimmune disease. He tried to use my physic disabilities, you know, my my mother's mental health, which I have a clean bill. You know I have my shit. Blame me, but you know nothing. He wanted one hundred percent custody of my kids. I ended up starting my custody battle with one hundred and seventy eight dollars to my name because he had financially devastated us. He put us in debt to such a degree that we lost our house, our businesses, our cars. My cars were being repossessed out of my driveway. I was so in the dark about our finances that by the time I left or the marriage ended, I had nothing, no savings account, no college fund to pull from from my kids, no no retirement. I had one hundred and seventy eight dollars. So I'm going to food pantries to feed my kids. Back then, after living in a mini mansion and driving a Mercedes to you know, trying to figure out where my groceries are coming from. He destroyed me. So I went into the court battle with no attorney. I went through the entire court battle until the last ten years. The year ten without an attorney. I represented myself in family court and I was up against him his attorneys. Over the years, he circled through, cycled through them. And it was the most daunting thing I've ever been through, because if you're mad at me, I will literally be awake tonight worrying about it. You know, I am conflict avoidant by nature to a fault, actually, and so I was thrust into this family court system. I had never stepped foot in family court. I had no idea. I was naive, believing that they just protected kids, and so it was a huge wake up call to me that parntal rights carry more weight than child safety. I started going to sit in the courtroom and observe proceedings when it wasn't my case. I started studying different cases that I would see in the courtroom to understand how attorneys filed things, what language they used, what case law they cited. I had to become an expert while working full time and having my kids the majority of the time, you know, I had to become an expert on the court system and just sitting in court and watching how attorneys said things, studying my judge. And you know, that's a mistake a lot of people make, is that they don't research who the judge is, what the judge's biases are. You could walk into five different courtrooms with the exact same case, and you're going to leave with five different outcomes based on who you are in front of. So I became an expert in my local court system. I'm here in San Louis Obispo, California, and just really understanding that to the court, these are just business transactions and emotions are best kept on your therapist couch, and that you have to you know, you're both under a microscope. Even if this other person is the worst person in the world, the court doesn't know either of you, and so how we present is critical. And so you know that my journey started in nine and officially terminated parntal rights in twenty nineteen. But I will say there was a big gap when my kids had no contact, you know, from in twenty fourteen, after our second child, custody evaluation, minors, counsel being appointed, all this stuff finally said no more, and so my kids didn't see him again after twenty fourteen.

00:48:05
Speaker 1: And they haven't seen him since twenty fourteen.

00:48:07
Speaker 6: And they don't want to. They want absolutely nothing to do with him. But back to your question, because I went off on a rant.

00:48:15
Speaker 1: No, I love it, this is I'm I'm all here for it. You talk freely.

00:48:19
Speaker 6: It was alcohol for him, and you know, I you know, the reality is narcissists are their own worst enemy. They you know, you have to go back to baseline, what it was like before the court that separation, any of that happened. You know, if I say my ex wasn't involved ninety five percent of the time or ninety eight percent of the time, that's their mo that's their baseline. That's how much the kids really matter to them. So but when they're getting the speed from the breakup or you know, publicity or whatever it is they're going to feed keeps them fueled. And so in my situation, the court kept him going. But when there was a lull between court dates, like we didn't have something scheduled for six months, he would go back to his baseline behavior, you know, not showing up for visits. His schedule was so busy, he had to travel work, you know, but in my case, a lot of it came down to alcoholism, you know, because he has a problem with alcohol. He was either you know, hungover or wanting his next drink or drinking, and so whatever type of addiction it is, whether it's sex, addiction, porn, work, exercise, you know, drugs, alcohol, it keeps them from functioning at one hundred percent. So a lot of times I'll say I didn't successfully protect my kids because he was a narcissist. The courts don't care about that at all in my kids because he couldn't keep the mask on because of his addiction issues.

00:50:06
Speaker 1: That makes total sense, and I've actually read that as well. It's they use those moments of like keeping the mask on as fuel. But it's something that they can't do forever because who in the world can play pretend forever? Right, Eventually they'll go back to who they really are.

00:50:24
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they don't get a you know, let's let's be honest. Parenting can be tedious. It is selfless work.

00:50:32
Speaker 4: You know.

00:50:33
Speaker 6: The narcissist isn't capable of truly showing up for another human and devoting their one hundred percent to this amazing little person. You know, there it's about the Instagram photo or the you know, the self total that they can promote to everybody about what a great parent they are. But that's not what parenting is. The narcissist is truly not capable of being.

00:50:59
Speaker 1: A parent's right. And I've, like I said, I've read that, and I can only imagine how terrified you were when you saw that he was going for full custody. So in that time period, you you leave the house, do you get to take your children with you?

00:51:15
Speaker 6: So we originally, in my naivity, had a Nestine agreement because I never wanted my kids to bounce back and forth. And they were so little. I mean when we truly like officially separated, they were two and four. And yeah, so I what, however old I was thirty four years old, started CouchSurfing. You know, we had our home base and he worked out of the area and he would come home on Friday nights. I would leave on Friday nights and go couch surf on friends' couches and then come home Sunday morning and take over. And so you know, that lasted for a while, and then I ended up in the women's shelter with my girls. And that really started our journey of terror. I mean I felt like the day I got my family court case number, I was also assigned my own personal terrorist.

00:52:13
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that just sent chills up my spine.

00:52:18
Speaker 6: Yeah.

00:52:19
Speaker 1: So usually when when you're when you're assigned a case number, you know, did they grant you any type of full temporary custody in that timeframe?

00:52:31
Speaker 6: Well, the first day we were in court, the judge basically said to us, and it shook me. The judge said, if you two are starting your divorce this way, you're in for a rude awakening. And so basically I was being lumped into the high conflict category without it being warranted. And in that moment, I just remember sitting there like a deer in headlights. No attorney by myself literally got ready that morning at the women's shelter and show up in court, and it just felt like, oh my god, what did I just walk into. If I'm afraid from my life at the women's shelter, and the judge is saying, if you too are starting this off this way, and I you know, and one of the things I've come to discover is that there are zero requirements for judges in California to have any training on domestic violence, it's a mere suggestion. So we've got people behind the bench who are deciding the fate and future of our children with no understanding of domestic violence. And that was very apparent to me that first day. I will say that they recognized that he had anger issues and that I had painted enough of a picture about my concerns about his alcohol use that he did and walk out with fifty to fifty on that day.

00:54:03
Speaker 1: Great.

00:54:03
Speaker 6: And so you know his it fluctuated over the years, but he would have every weekend and then it was every other weekend. And my mentality is there's nothing final in family court. I refuse to accept that, you know, whatever these orders are are in my child's best interest, I will keep chipping away at it. If this isn't my starting point, If it's you know, seventy five, twenty five or whatever the percentage where you know they're dividing your child like a piece of property. I know that's a whole other podcast, but I refuse to accept that as my final destination. Now, even if it's a final custody order, my opinion is I'm going to keep chipping away at it until I can put my head down on the pillow at night knowing that my daughters are safe. I just want to hug you through this. I'm going to cry too.

00:55:00
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry.

00:55:00
Speaker 6: No, please do not apologize. This is It takes me right back to where I was in those days and it's literally the worst thing I've ever been through in my life. And I one hundred percent feel where you're at right now.

00:55:19
Speaker 1: You are just beyond strong and I'm so and inspiring. The fact that you you know the hand you were dealt and one hundred and seventy eight dollars in your bank account, and you fought for your children. It just goes to show that a mother will stop at nothing to make sure that their kid is where they should be so that we can send them out into the world and be healthy, beautiful human beings. You know that's our only goal. Oh I'm sorry.

00:55:52
Speaker 6: No, absolutely, no apology. You know it is. And you know, going back to you saying that I'm strong, I'll tell you if you would have told me that ten years ago, I didn't feel strong. I truly was in survival mode. Had I not journaled and blogged back then about my experience. It would be a complete you know, I've shot it out, Like I go back and read things that I wrote in these moments. Yeah, in the beginning, and I'm like, oh my god. And I didn't feel strong. I felt like I have been on my floor bawling in fetal position more times than you know. And I remember leaving the courtroom so many times. And by that point my story had been discovered and people were following, and I remember feeling like a fraud because people were sending me messages saying, You're so strong, you know, you're a warrior, and I like, I just had a full blown panic attack in the bathroom of the courthouse and then I just cried for an hour fetal position in the back of my car. I don't feel strong and I don't feel like a warrior.

00:57:13
Speaker 1: Can you look back now and say I was a strong bitch?

00:57:16
Speaker 6: Absolutely sorry. I thought I was a strong bitch and absolutely one person. Yeah, and I and you know, my kids when we were driving back from San Francisco this weekend, and you know, his name will come up every once in a while, and you know, I'm always open to talking with them at their age level on the reality of what they lived through and experienced. And my daughter shared a memory that felt really fuzzy to me at the time, but it was when they were probably three and five, and it was Fourth of July weekend, and I was so terrified putting them in the car that weekend. And I just I knew when he was in a good place and when he wasn't, and when he was really unstable, and it terrified me. But your your hands are tied by a broken court system that's forcing you to put your little girls in this car. And my daughter recounted the story where I said to her, Mom's always with you. And when you see the pink fireworks tonight fourth of July, every time you see a pink firework, know that Mommy loves you and Mommy's sending you a big hug. And that has been you know, she said, like every time I see even like a pink fireworks logo or something like that, like it always takes me back to that, because you know, that's that connection that we had is unbreakable. You know, that bond that I authentically created with my kids, not because of show, not because of a camera was on, not because of any of that. You know, that is their foundation and no one can touch that, not the court system, not a narcissist that is unbreakable.

00:59:09
Speaker 1: That is beautiful, And that was like the sweetest story. Thank you for sharing that. I Before I let you go, can you tell our listeners some things to look out for when it comes to a narcissist. What should be things that they see and know that they need to run away?

00:59:28
Speaker 6: Oh, you know, there's so many.

00:59:30
Speaker 1: Different it's a loaded question, not loaded, so.

00:59:33
Speaker 6: Many different types. I highly encourage people to follow doctor Romany's work because she really.

00:59:42
Speaker 1: That's how I follow. Oh, that's the doctor I find.

00:59:45
Speaker 6: Yeah, she is the most knowledgeable psychologist on this topic. And you know there are so many different types. You know, she talks about the communal narcissist who is the good deed doer and you know, maybe run and around in birkenstocks and you know, feeding the homeless on Saturdays, and they're going to present different from a you know, very malignant, you know, loud, boisterous, over the top person. Those are the ones that are easy to spot in bars, or in restaurants or what wherever. It's paying attention to your intuition. I'll tell you I had zero attraction to my ex husband, and there was something almost repulsive about thinking about kissing him. And I kept thinking, but he's so nice and I'm being superficial and all that. My gut was telling me to get the fuck out, like.

01:00:42
Speaker 1: I, Oh my god, I shut up.

01:00:45
Speaker 6: I love it, but I will say, your gut, get to a quiet place. And one of the biggest tests. Put up a boundary. If you say, you know what I'm needing, just a week to myself where I'm going to just shut down and be alone. See how they react to that. My guess is you're gonna get flowers, you're gonna get poetry, you're gonna get whatever delivered. But no, like boundaries, a narcissist can't handle boundaries. And that's a good test. You know, whatever your boundary is, put it up and see how they react. But again, words and if words and actions are not in alignment, you know, that's a lot of time where you see the mask slip.

01:01:31
Speaker 1: And be aware of it.

01:01:33
Speaker 6: Be aware of it absolutely. How they talk to other people in public, how they talk to people who they feel are beneath them, how they put yeah down.

01:01:44
Speaker 1: I love that you said that.

01:01:45
Speaker 6: All of those things.

01:01:46
Speaker 1: Wow, it has been such a pleasure, Tina to have you on this podcast. This has to be one of my most favorite episodes that we've done so far. You are in absolute joy to talk to and so full of information that's so value in this day and age. So we appreciate you.

01:02:02
Speaker 6: I am honored to be here.

01:02:04
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, of course, and we will keep in touch absolutely