Roberto Castro on the Wild 2022 Players Championship

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.

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Speaker 2: Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida egggg Frida Egg brid egg Lie.

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Speaker 3: I'm about ready to run.

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Speaker 4: Off of the hump.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is with former PGA Tour player Roberto Castro. Roberto was out at the players this week, took in some of the action early in the week and he came on to just talk about the twenty twenty two players as well as we got into kind of golf development at the end of the podcast. Roberto is the co host of his own podcast. It's called The Course Record Show. He dives into the business of golf. It's super interesting. He has a lot of great guests on and it's a little bit different angle. It's very unique. I would recommend listening to that. You can listen to that on anywhere you get your podcasts. And he is also a senior advisor at cap Tech and it consulting company that dabbles in sports, as well as the owner of Castro Golf Consulting, which does logos in different branding for golf.

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Speaker 4: So we talk about.

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Speaker 3: The twenty twenty two Players, which was quite an interesting and compelling watch, and as well as some other things. And without further ado, here is Roberto Castro. All right, another Players in the books. Roberto, how are you doing? I'm good? How are you? I'm just I'm hanging in there early here and on the West Coast trying not to wake up the kid. You were out there early in the week. How was being a spectator at TPC Sawgrass?

00:02:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, other side of the ropes. It's funny my credential. I have a corn Faery credential and it says inside ropes. And my colleagues and my new gig are like, so you can just go under the rope at any time into the fairway. It's like no, you kind of just enter at the driving range and then you're inside the ropes for good. They just kind of felt like I could just go check out a putting green at any time if I wanted to. But it was good. Players was the course looked unbelievable. It's such a bad break with the weather. But on Tuesday, Wednesday, it looked just pristine. It was teed up for a great week, but what a disaster weatherwise.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was in a way.

00:02:53
Speaker 3: I think this is just something that I feel like I kind of liked the Monday finish just because I think it was different for somebody that covers golf all the time and like I had like a real Sunday night for a rare real Sunday night for me. But you know, obviously always a bummer when you miss out on that primetime window. That being said, some of the weather I think made for awesome TV Saturday with that wind. While some players might have not really appreciated being sent out there, I think, like you look at Kevin Kizzery finished three shots short of the of getting in a playoff, and that's the exact scoring differential between the two waves.

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Speaker 4: He had some pointed comments about it, but you.

00:03:39
Speaker 3: Know that that viewing made for incredible TV, uh, with the wind and everything. And one question I had you for you was, you know, as somebody you know the played on the tour played in three players. Is there anything that we can glean as fans from Saturday about players or was just one of the like freak weather and the few guys who played well just had it that day and it was just one of those days. If you don't have it, you look really bad, and if you have it, you look really good.

00:04:14
Speaker 2: I would say people were reading into it a little bit too much, like the constant you know, justin Thomas's ball shape, his shaping his shots and is high and is low. I mean he's one of the five best players in the world, whether it's dead still or blowing forty. So I think people are reading into it a little bit too much. But about the Monday finish, totally unexpected COVID outcome, what percentage of people are working from home now? And had that on a second screen for twelve hours on Monday, like every single person And I know that especially during Masters, that people get that screen going Thursday. But I bet the numbers were way up compared to a similar situation three years ago because so many people, especially golf fans, are working from home.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also, I mean expand to coverage, right, you know, you have so much more ability to watch now, and I think like that's been one of the big revelations this year with the ESPN plus coverage, is like how much better the streaming options are for when you get these weird schedules. Is that like ESPN Plus as opposed to like, you know, no shots at PGA too are live before ESPN Plus. But you watch that main feed now and it actually feels like a real golf telecast, right, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, It's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a balance, right because I think justin Thomas, what he did was pretty incredible. Like some of the shots he hit, you know, the knockdown three wood or five wood whatever it was on eighteen that went from two oh six was something that you just didn't see a lot of guys attempt, you know, him, he was one of the few players that I thought really hit the shot that was you needed to hit on seventeen, which was you know, taking four extra club then you you know, then you think is the right club, you know, based off the number and hitting that six iron and you know, really flighting it down. I thought, you know, it's so rare that we see the best players in the world have to hit really different shots just because of I think how optimized everything's gotten, you know, with the with the spin spin rates so low, with drivers and everything that in a way it did expose some people like you know that went out there and just tried to kind of hit like almost like I think they were trying to knock it down in some regards, but just like did not have even like the weren't even in the right stratosphere of what type of shot to hit in certain situations, People that maybe only hit one shape like that high fade was not going to work. I'm seventeen at all, Like, there's no way you were hit a high fade and have any semblance of success.

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Speaker 4: So I think there was a little something to glean.

00:07:06
Speaker 3: But the reality is that we don't get these conditions very often, and you know, what are the chances of them coming up in a major week is so low, right.

00:07:20
Speaker 2: Totally, And I think you nailed it as far as weather dictates scoring and weather dictates the interesting nature of events. All this talk about setup and course design, you need weather. But I think the biggest takeaway for me was it showed what would be possible more regularly if the ball went ten percent shorter. That was the biggest thing I thought of was March versus May is going to bring in more weather in March, and this was an extreme case of that. But you had Jason Day hitting two iron sandwich into eighteen, and with this cold weather, which makes the ball go ten percent shorter, you had everyone hitting driver off the t's again, huge difference. Number ten guys were hitting driver in maybe three wood and spraying it all over the place. Number eighteen you saw guys in the right wood. You saw guys everywhere because they were hitting driver and that five wood justin Thomas hid Okay, extreme wind, but that holes like four sixty five if he's hitting a T shot two sixty two seventy instead of three to ten. But there's a much higher chance you get to see three and four and five irons. Some of the shots Kissner was hitting like low bullet draws through the wind. You can get a lot more of that if the ball just went shorter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I and I think that it brings out skill, like one of the things I was thinking about on Saturday when it was happening.

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Speaker 4: You know, Kissner played really well.

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Speaker 3: He had obviously I think it was the fifth hole or he made a double or triple if I recall correctly. I don't have the score growd up in front of me, but you know, he played a really great round, and one of the things I was thinking was a he hit a draw, which is a little out of fashion. Not a lot of the top plays players hit draws, which holds up a lot better in the wind. But be the other aspect of it is Kevin Kinssner is far more accustomed to hitting long irons into greens on a regular basis, And you know that that's it. You know, it makes a big difference when you know, if you're one of the guys like you know, DJ or Brooks or you know insert long long.

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Speaker 4: Player, you're not used to it.

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Speaker 3: Like DJ recalled, like vividly when the last time he hit a three iron, he had to hit a three iron into green, and he recalled vividly the last time he had to hit a three iron. He's like and they asked, you know, why why do you remember it so clearly? Well, I barely ever happens. And I think you're you're right, Like the shot making that comes from the ball going a little bit shorter is is so And I think that's the thing that was everybody loves so much whether they can get to that point, you know, extrapolate the point to where like what they loved about Saturday was that these guys really were challenged and had to hit different shots, which is, you know, which is great, Like it's it's way more fun to watch you know, a you know, whether it's the you know NFL, a great offense go against a great defense than it is to watch, you know, a great offense go against the worst defense in the league.

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Speaker 4: No, no offense to your falcons, we une taking.

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Speaker 2: I agree totally. The My argument for making the ball go shorter has always been that I think it's more interesting to watch players hit fourteen clubs. And that's what you saw. That's what you saw on Saturday. And it's kind of funny. You have the old timers that say, not only should the ball go shorter, it should spin more. Well, what did we see that Saturday? It was cold, so the ball went shorter and it was windy, which makes the ball spin a lot more. It was like right there in front of you, like that could be possible. And instead of seeing driver wedge, driver wedge, driver way edge and then a two hundred and forty yard part three where you get to see Brooks hit a four iron, it's the only time you get to see him hit a long club you actually got to see it through the golf course and it was great. It was great to watch. I didn't watch a ton on Saturday, but that shot on fourteen that kids hit. That hole's four sixty four seventy, Like that should be a hole that you're watching guys hit four and five irons into and he hit this rip hook through the wind to the back pen like twenty feet. It was an incredible shot And and to your point, I think he's the he's done that. He has to hit a couple four irons a day and JT and Rom and those guys never do. So it was cool to.

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Speaker 4: Watch the kids.

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Speaker 3: There's like a perfect example of a guy I think like of. You know, when you're a shorter hitter, to play at the level that Kisner plays at is so impressive, and it makes me always wonder like if the ball went a little shorter and being able to overpower a golf course wasn't such a prevalent thing, how much higher in the world rankings, how much more well thought of would Kevin Kisner be as a pro Because when you look at his stats, he does everything extremely well. You know, from he's accurate off the tee he's a great iron player, he's great putter, he's great he's got great short game. But you know where he can't just bully golf courses like a you know, like you know some of the better players like Jason Kokrak can do.

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Speaker 4: For example.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what Kiss does is incredible. Ki Kiss's game on the Modern PGA Tour, he can legit contend in six or eight tournaments a year, and I don't think he would disagree with that, And then he does in four of those six he finishes in the top ten at RBC. The players Sony Greensboro almost every year. Do you know how hard it is to say you're only going to get six at bats this month or this year and you need to hit four home runs? And he does it incredible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's it's one of those things like he's a you know, it makes me think of like great pitch hitters when you say you only get a couple of appearances. It's like the guy that that you can bring off the bench the seventh or eighth inning and he just like always figures out a way to get on base at those places. But one of the things is, like when the conditions are right, that's when he pops in majors, like and we've seen him be relevant in majors. He hasn't gotten it done, But what is it Quail hollow if you you know when Justin Thomas had had his UH one, he was in that in the mix there and then you know he's a great match by player, which I think is like it's kind of telling, like he's a guy you wouldn't want to see, you know, playing because he doesn't give you anything. But when you were on tour, I'm curious, like, like how much does is whether the ultimate you know, I need to use a lot of shots in my bag or like how does that work with like the balance of course set up in weather, like which carries the most impact to how different you could play a course.

00:14:06
Speaker 2: I really think it's ninety percent weather driven because the only other course set up factor is putting tight pins to firm greens. And there's only one shot you need. It's high and it's long because so you can have a shorter club in So if they set it up tough, tough, tough, that just means tighter pins, firmer greens. All I want to do is hit it high and long. But when you bring weather in, there's a few different ways to get around the golf course, and which you saw on Saturday.

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Speaker 3: I think this was extreme weather, right, you know that we aren't going to get a lot of this, but like.

00:14:41
Speaker 2: It maybe once every twenty years, horrendous weather.

00:14:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, it made me think that they should have a tour event at like literally the windiest locale in the country every year just because of what type of shot making we got to see.

00:14:55
Speaker 2: And they do they do. It's called Honda and nobody plays it. Yeah, because it's brutal. It's that we have that tournament, it's the Honda Classic. You're just signing up to get punched in the face.

00:15:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, South Florida on a regular basis. It's just like, especially in March, it's just you know, there are a lot of days you just don't want to even go outside to hit golf balls. So I asked you to prep a couple of takeaways, and I prep some for uh also, and one when I wanted to talk about something I take took away this year that I really appreciated and and some people would look at the leader board and say, oh, it was fluky, but one of the things I look at it and say is like, hey, at the players, is this the one big tournament year and year out where everybody really has a chance because of the golf course where it's pretty equitable for all types of players.

00:15:53
Speaker 2: Yes, But I think that there's two There's two sides to that coin. Absolutely, it's the most important, it's the hardest tournament. Who's going to win. I've been on record saying that these major championships there's like eight to twelve guys that can legitimately win for a few reasons, one being course set up, one of a few. But the flip side of that is I was at the golf course Sunday for a few minutes and there were like thirty thirty two holes left, and everyone and their cousin was within two shots. And I was sitting there with a couple buddies and I said, two guys on that board are going to win this tournament, can win this tournament, justin Thomas and Cam Smith. And they were like, really, all these guys are in it, two guys, And I was right this time, not always, and kids was too far back, or I would have you started the weekend two under, so I would have put him in that category if he didn't start so far back. So it just begs the question, what is it that at the end the cream like Hovelin came out of nowhere, the cream rises to the top. Is it the money? Is it the pressure? Is it the lack of experience? But Cam Smith and Justin Thomas just stood out as the most accomp polish, nails nails down players on that board. So yes, everyone can contend at the Players, But what was the last flukey winner, like we had winner we had at the Players?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't I don't think see Wu, like everybody would point to see Wu, but I don't think that's a flukey winner, Like he's done enough and like everybody's like, oh he was like statistically it was having a bad year, but like you look at his careers, like he was the youngest player ever to qualify for the Web dot Com Tour.

00:17:31
Speaker 4: I agree, which was that it's like that's not fluky.

00:17:34
Speaker 3: You know, you looked at the leader board and you saw all the all the names that were on there, and you saw a lot of like worst case scenarios for the tour is kind of what I what always goes through my head is like I was there the year see Woo one and I heard the groans of the media center that you know, this is this is the guy that everybody has to write about. And uh, but camp Smith, like he's an interesting topic of conversation because he's now six ranked player in the world and is discernibly different than the five guys ahead of him in terms of how he got to six in the world. The style of play, I think he's he it's unbelievable. I think he lost six shots to the field off the tee. He hit some really terrible t shots five shots and you know, but at the same time, when you put any short iron in, I don't know if there's a player that in the world that I would trust more. And then just like in terms of demeanor, in overall like personality, I think he's a lot different. He's a lot more laid back than a lot of the better best players in the world are. And you know, I think there is something when when you're coming down the stretch is like certain guys just know how to get the ball in the hole.

00:18:55
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Potters win. It's just another data point and Putter's win. Paul Casey's an unbelievable golfer and the break he got on sixteen was possibly the worst break I've ever seen in golf. He could have hit the way he strikes a golf ball, he could have hit a five iron to a foot there. Instead, he barely makes par, but it's hard to win when you don't make as many when you don't make putts. And cam Smith puts so well and he chips so well. I played with him. He's the best chipper and putter I've ever seen. I played with him at San Antonio one year and the first two rounds and he chipped in three times, and two of them would be a chip where you're just trying to get it within twenty feet. The eighth hole has a green that's like fifty yards deep with this tiny back shelf, and he had a forty seven yard bunker shot and he rolled it in like a putt from forty. He's incredible around the greens, but he's been nails. I watched a few of those President's Cup days when it was at Royal Melbourne, and you could tell that he was totally unflustered by the whole deal, knocking in six eight ten footers. I don't remember who he beat or didn't beat, but he's definitely elevated. But I agree with you on the late back part. He doesn't seem I generally think and say that to be a top five player in the world you have to sacrifice kind of your whole life. And those guys eat, sleep, breathe, you know. Rory famously said he had like six open days on his calendar a year. Cam Smith does not strike me that way, which is pretty cool to see.

00:20:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in a way it kind of helps him. I've heard that he's like super into pickleball as well as obviously fishing. Is the is that is like, you know, it just seems like he you know, he does his work. He's been quote he's I don't know the exact quote, but like I do my job and then I go enjoy life. And it's like, oh, that's like and I think, like it's like this idea like everybody gets in parents with of junior golfers now are so.

00:20:59
Speaker 4: Focused on specialization.

00:21:01
Speaker 3: And Cam Smith a really good example of a guy that was really talented. Obviously he was twenty one. He finished top five in the US Open. That's how he got his tour card, but at the same token he kind of takes some lumps in a different path along the way. There were some I think people frustrated back in Australia about like, why isn't this guy, you know, making it in a lot of times, you know, the rumors.

00:21:27
Speaker 4: Were, oh, it's his work ethic, work ethic.

00:21:29
Speaker 3: But balance becomes a beautiful thing when you when you figure it out, and all of a sudden, he's got something that a lot of people don't have, which is the ability to depart and when things aren't going great, he goes out and does what he wants to do. And I think that and who knows the pickleball thing, maybe that helps him. Maybe you know, he looks a little bit more spry this year yea than.

00:21:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I.

00:21:58
Speaker 3: Was somebody message I was talking about this on the Shotgun Start. Somebody messaged me who's a very very good player and avid pickleballer who said, it's about being athletic at something other than golf, like that it really brings without risk huge risk of injury.

00:22:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there is pretty decent risk of injury, but better if you're twenty eight versus sixty eight. But yeah, putters. He proved that putters win, and in the last two weeks proved that at the end of a tournament it always comes down to getting a ball up and down or making a putt. I know he stuffed it on seventeen and the fore iron he hit on sixteen was unbelievable. But he gets it up and down on fifteen, and then he hits that great foe iron on sixteen after snaphooking it and Scheffler the week before, he gets it all up in the bunker there on sixteen at bay Hill, gets it up and down from fifty yards. It always comes down to a wedgshot. And on eighteen, obviously I'm forgetting the obvious one. Cam Smith knipes knife sit up there at a foot from fifty five yards like it's no big deal. The winning comes down to making putts and getting the ball up and down. It always does.

00:23:09
Speaker 3: When you watch somebody put together an entire round. The rounds that win are those ones that like make. They make those key saves that keep their momentum, And I think with cam Smith it was the middle part of that back nine that was so impressive, where he wasn't hitting the best shots, but he was scoring at an elite level totally.

00:23:33
Speaker 2: I know that the strokes gained approach stat is what everyone says is the golden stat. But what I tell the tech kids, the Georgia tech guys turning pro every day, I'm more convicted in it. You need to be a prodigious driver or putter. It's one of those two. You can play the tour and have success if you drive it or put it better than anyone else. You know, and Hoveland and Cam Smith are two examples of that. I don't the proximity from the faraway or strokes gained fairaway. If you're playing from three to twenty in the faraway every time, of course you have a good proximity. I think that's more the driver than it is the approach shots and the putting, you know, is pretty simple speaks for itself.

00:24:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would agree too.

00:24:19
Speaker 3: It's like if you can drive and put it well, then you have career years Like that's you know, I always pick on Jason Cokrack, but it's like he figured out the putter and he was a prodigious driver and he won three three times in a calendar year, and it's like oh, well, that makes a lot of sense. It's like, if you drive in putting good, there's not a lot of courses that you can't play. And Paul Casey falls into this boat of what we would describe as underachievers. And I had a question for you. You hit on a terrible break, horrendous break on sixteen. That being said, I think you can look at the the way he played down the stretch and it was very, very very conservative with the shot on seventeen, and who knows where he was aiming, the way he kind of played eighteen and and the you know, the the decisions he made on sixteen. He had hit a bad wedge. He clearly was trying to play that funnel in there. But you know, it reminded me a little bit of a polter a few years ago where he was in the mix, needed some birdies. He hit it right to the viddle of seventeen green And I'm wondering, you know, we like to as me and the media likes to pooh pooh, bunny, this is the richest person in golf. Paul Casey walked away with over a million dollars. Does money really matter coming down the stretch? Does he know, Hey, if I finished top three, I'm making over a million dollars. If I make a double here, it's gonna cost me a half a million dollars.

00:26:00
Speaker 2: I don't think Paul Casey's thinking about that. I really don't. I think he's trying to hit the right shot. The disappointing shot was the Wedge on sixteen not getting that one there, and you saw Sam Burns kind of throw it behind it. They said, he can't lose it here. He can only lose it here. He's two back, and Cam Smith's gonna make par if he wedges that thing. Gimme how many guys have we seen make seven on seventeen he could have easily won the tournament, but the wedge was disappointed. But no, I don't think he's thinking about the money. And on seventeen, every guy is aiming ten feet left of that thing, and you block it a little bit, you look like a hero. And if you pull it a little bit, you look like a like you bailed out and you were playing for money. So I don't think that's I'm gonna say, no, he's not thinking about the money.

00:26:47
Speaker 3: I'm just curious. I like, at what point does money matter like it if? Is it once you reach a certain point, say I'm just say, arbitrarily pull a number out of this guy. But like arbitrarily, once you've made twenty million in your career, you kind of it desensitizes it. Or is there is there a threshold like I imagine you know as somebody who who you know? Once you get onto the tour, there's probably a shock about I'm playing for six million dollars, I'm playing for eight million dollars, Like you know, is there Do you think there's a point where you you can see it? You know, certain types of players just the money doesn't matter anymore.

00:27:29
Speaker 2: I think so. But I would say it does not correlate at all to a number. And there's that quote that Cam Smith a couple of years ago said that he's pretty much set. Well, he's pretty much set. You can win eighty million dollars and spend seventy of it and you're gonna be You're gonna be thinking about that money. So I would I would say, in the arc of a normal career, yes, you think about it a lot and then it it pulls back. But I remember clearly my second turn on tour was Palm Springs and I teed off the back Sunday and I was like seven or eight under, six seven under, I don't remember, with two holes to play, and I was like up into like twenty fifth and I get on this the eighth hole and I'm like, my god, it's like a short wedge. If I make another birdie, I can make like seventy thousand dollars. And I hit this ninety yard wedge fifty five yards like absolutely, laid the sad over it and finish like bogey par and made twenty five grand. And yes, five years into my tour career, I would not have been thinking about that the seventy grand because it doesn't really move the needle five years in. But when you're twenty five year old rookie and someone's gonna you get to play golf in Palm Springs for four days and someone's going to hand you seventy grand, hell yeah, you think about it. Well.

00:28:46
Speaker 3: I think that's why so many guys struggle the first time they get in contention. I like what you just illustrated and whether or not people could realize it, Like if you're playing your club championship and you're thinking, oh, if I win this hole, I'm up three with six to go. That's the exact same thought, just in a different spectrum. And it's the word absolute worst thought that you could have a golf course, and I it's.

00:29:09
Speaker 2: The absolute worst thought.

00:29:11
Speaker 3: It's like, if this happens, then this happens is the worst line of thinking you could possibly have on a golf course.

00:29:19
Speaker 2: And maybe that's the answer to my question earlier about Sam Burns has more money than he can spend, and he's got an unbelievable career ahead of him and he's nails like college Player of the Year, he's incredible. Yeah, maybe he's thinking about it's his first players three point six million raising the true Maybe he thinks about it and the first time he gets there he kind of drove it bad all day. But I'm just pulling his name out of a hat, right that it has something to do with it, probably.

00:29:50
Speaker 3: And maybe it might not be money for Sam Burns. It might be actually the career accolades and it's moving him. I think a lot of guys it's maybe not money, but it's what the win does for their career in terms of legacy. Like the players I you know, we could talk about this, but like, whether it's a major or not, it's it's not a regular event, you know, it certainly not a regular event.

00:30:18
Speaker 4: It's a huge deal. It's a it's a it's something that your peers like.

00:30:22
Speaker 3: The way the collective golf world's going to think of you after a win, there is different and I think that is the you know, there are two things, the money aspect that you know, you you for certain guys, but then for the most guys, it's it's really that legacy that is the is the big pressure that hangs over him, not to steal Paul Easinger's term, but you know that's the thing that that kind of weighs on you on a Sunday is the idea of almost like and it's like there are classes of players on the PGA Tour, and a win at the players might leap you a class or two, depending on the player.

00:31:02
Speaker 2: Totally, totally.

00:31:06
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00:32:47
Speaker 2: I would say the shot on fifteen at Augusta, the few of the shots at Sager has to be a good preparation for it, because it's just such a I mean, that's my favorite golf hole in the world. But being able to hit the correct flight spin and get the correct distance if you have to lay up or if you don't, even if you're going for it in two, but otherwise not really.

00:33:07
Speaker 4: Around the greens. Is that telling at all.

00:33:11
Speaker 3: That's the one thing I was kind of thinking about is it's pretty severe around the greens at Sawgrass.

00:33:17
Speaker 2: No. And the reason is, and I was actually gonna mention this, I'm glad you brought it up. Augusta is super hilly and Sawgrass is dead flat. It's building a swamp. One thing that's really difficult about Sawgrass that you cannot see on TV is that there's no depth perception and you can't really see what's out there, Like the sixteenth Hall yesterday, when you're hitting that second shot with a fore iron or a sixty yard web shot. It's just railroad ties and horizon and the pin kind of sits there and you can't you don't really have any depth perception of that shot Paul Casey hit. If you hit it a little too far, you feel like you can hit it in the water. Everything being flat doesn't give you like perspective and depth like it does at Augusta. So that's really really difficult. And a lot of the shots at Sawgrass are visually very tough because you can't you can't really get elevated like the cameras are. You're just sitting on the ground level and there's all this trouble and it's very hard to explain. But it's totally different than the camera view.

00:34:20
Speaker 3: When they talk about like when the NCAA Championship in basketball and you go to these huge domes and they talk about how hard it is shooting because of depth. It's I imagine it might be similar kind of situation to that.

00:34:35
Speaker 2: I think. So I think that your eyes and your and your your eyes give you the feedback that that you use. And I had never heard that until a few years ago, but it totally makes sense in basketball, right you see the hoop there and then you see the ceiling as generally eighty feet behind the hoop. Then you go play at the Georgia Dome and the ceiling and the walls are four hundred feet behind the hoop. That has to mess with your brain somehow.

00:34:58
Speaker 3: So this is I think, you know, a topic of that parlay is kind of a golf architecture because I always talk about this is that there good design has some deception with that when you don't have the natural features right or if you do have the natural features and there's always the idea of like you know, for players of the PGA Tour quality, you can know the number. You've got a professional caddy that's telling you the exact number you have a even if you have a flat lie. You know there's some uneven lies created there because of rumples in the fairway, but you have a flat lie knowing in the back of your mind there's still that element of feel and in something not looking right or there's maybe not a full trust in what the number is because of what your eyes are telling you has a big impact on your shot.

00:35:55
Speaker 2: YEP Number four at Sawgrass is the only l elevation change on the course. That shot is a three wood. Every player in that field can hit ten three woods in a row on a blanket on the driving range, but that tea sits up about ten yards and I bet eight out of ten guys would say that's the most awkward shot on the golf course. You see guys flaring into the tree right off the tee box. You see guys hit whip hooks up onto the left hill over there. It's a three wood, but visually, something about the design being elevated makes that shot really, really difficult. The only explanation is is the feel and how it looks to the eye.

00:36:38
Speaker 4: That I mean.

00:36:39
Speaker 3: Think about last year when Westy hit it a mile right and Bryson topped his threewood on that hole, he.

00:36:46
Speaker 2: Topped his three wood. Yes, that is such a terrifying tea shot, and if you went and played it on a Tuesday morning with your buddies, you would think nothing of it. There's nothing to that shot except it's the hardest shot on the golf course somehow.

00:37:01
Speaker 3: Something I think about so much that you talked about the first time you were on the pod was the idea of like if you're going to the first tea, the last club that you want to have to hit is your three wood, because that's where you can look really silly. And that moment the fourth hole last year, like it just like illuminated that to like know, and then I've started to think about it more and more. You think about like the viral moments where tour players hit really bad shots. Harold Varner topping at Riviera was a three wood, you know, Francesco Vollinari at I think Pebble this year top to three wood, Like it's like that's the one club where we see really really bad misses. And it makes me think back to like my high school golf days. I'm standing on the first tea when the driver head was a little bit smaller and really worrying about pop ups, snap hooks and all sorts of bad shots, which is probably why I wasn't the number one guy on my high school too.

00:38:07
Speaker 2: No, And it circles back to what we were talking about at the beginning. What is a three wood today? It's a smaller head that spins more. It's a driver from the nineteen eighties or the nineteen nineties. So if you want to bring more excitement and more variety to golf, you can do the ball or you could do something with the driver, but absolutely like the ninth hole at Greensboro is another slightly elevated tea and if the weather's warm, I hit like three iron down there and hit eight iron in and you see some guys hit driver like way up over the bunker. But the last club I want to hit there is a three wood. One year, I hit threewood off a house that's not even in play over there, and it kicked back in play. But if I hit a driver, it doesn't spin enough for me to like flare it into the house. And if I hit three iron, I mean it's going to be reasonably down the faraway. Three wood is the absolute scariest.

00:38:58
Speaker 4: Club it all.

00:38:59
Speaker 3: It really may make the point of you know, what you talked about with the wind and how you saw these clubs that guys were hitting into greens It kind of makes the point if if there was ability to get variable golf balls that almost acted the way altitude acts, where you know you could have because there are benefits to the may players, right, the golf course is firmer, the weather's generally a little bit better, more reliable.

00:39:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, on site, it's way better. The party vibe and the spectators in May were amazing because it's ninety degrees. College kids are back from It was a totally different vibe and an awesome one.

00:39:43
Speaker 3: More daylight too for just getting the getting the field around. We always see the darkness delays, whether you know, not weather dependent, but you know, like it makes the case of this variable a variable golf ball where you know, like you see these guys they were playing a pult the back, like they go down there, they spend a day hitting track man and the altitude is not a big deal. You were to seeing guys blow it twenty yards over greens and come up fifteen yards short.

00:40:11
Speaker 4: They figure it out.

00:40:12
Speaker 3: And if you could create a ball that reacts similar but is variable based off of like, oh we can take ten percent off this week, we can add you know, certain places you play the full juiced up ball. If you're going to play you know, Kiwa Island like that, maybe that's of course that you don't need, like you don't need to have a reduce ball. But when you go to sawgrass, a place that like there's not a ton of space to add to it, a lot of those hazards, those diagonal hazards that cut across fairways have become you know, hey, you're long hair, you don't need to hit driver. March certainly helps with more drivers, but you know the idea of keeping that integrity and seeing guys hit shots that it makes a ton of sense because we saw it play out on Saturday. So any other big take ways for you from players?

00:41:02
Speaker 2: Not really. I thought that why were so many like short putts being missed in like three sixty spinouts? I thought that was a little strange. I have a question for you though, all these yes, it's the Frida Egg. Who's going to play all these new golf courses that are being built. There's so many of these destination courses with the cottages being built? Am I crazy? Is this is it being Oh? Is there a bubble at what is going on?

00:41:26
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's good for you know, somebody that writes about golf courses to have a bubble, you know.

00:41:32
Speaker 4: But I would say this is a good segue. I I think.

00:41:39
Speaker 3: I think there's a little bit of a hoopie effect going on with some of these places. Yeah, where Mike Wallrath, who's obviously the owner of a hoopie a lot of like very wealthy people go there. They see what this guy, what this guy has like his own effective playground, and they want one. And obviously, you know, the stuff market did quite well through COVID, and it was a situation where the rich got richer, and you know, I think that's led to some of it where I think the idea also like with just the last five six years, you know, golf courses and architectures become more popular, and I think one of the things is that architects in a way have become a little bit more accessible and people have started to understand like, oh, like you know, building a great golf course, isn't that crazy?

00:42:33
Speaker 4: Like I just need to get one of these guys, right, But.

00:42:40
Speaker 3: I think there's also a market reaction.

00:42:44
Speaker 4: This is a good question. There's a lot of layers to this too.

00:42:49
Speaker 3: You know, they see what the kaisers and then you know what stream Song and Pinehurst does and it's effectively like the same model, but on a private level, right, they've us mimic the model. Right, We're gonna build a great golf course, is gonna be a destination. But you start to add up the cost of going to stream Song in December, and you compare it to the cost of going to you know, if you can get on to Hoopye, And sometimes you do the math and it's like, well, Hoopy's actually cheaper than stream Song because they aren't going to ding me nine bucks for a Miller lte. And so for people that don't aren't aware, is a Hoopie has a daily buy in? Is the model like I spend I think it's around one thousand dollars and that's everything, that's all my food, that's all the golf. I want to play everything. Now you go to stream Song and you're spending three four hundred dollars for a room to three hundred dollars or so for golf, and then you add the food in which is really expensive there, and you're right at a thousand bucks. So I think that's the thing, is that it's just resorts are financially incentivized to be the innovators in the industry, the people with the most ability to innovate and and should be most incentivized, or municipalities, but they're the last.

00:44:12
Speaker 4: Ones to do it, unfortunately.

00:44:14
Speaker 3: But then like so you see like the short course boom, it starts at resorts then it gets passed down to the clubs building converting these five acres into short courses. Like all over the place, private clubs and eventually short courses probably are just now, like you're just starting to see them in municipalities. I know there's the one up in Minneapolis that Ben Warren and a group are building, Chaska Chaska nine, Like it's the short course. Like I think that's the reality of the situation, right is like the resorts set that so if you see trends from resorts a couple of years later, it's going to come to private clubs. And we're at this spot where this is a really long answer. I feel like I've been talking for like an hour, but you know.

00:44:58
Speaker 4: You you.

00:45:01
Speaker 3: This private getaway golf is just a knee jerk react, and not a knee jerk, but a reaction to what the Kaisers and other destination golf's been doing.

00:45:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious to watch it play out because obviously when things cycle down, even these owners, you got these like billionaire owners, you know, like they don't really they're not really affected by by recessions, but long term, you know, their family takes over. Do they want to run a golf course that operates at a loss. There's a lot to unpack there, but it just feels like there are so many There are so many of those, and maybe there's demand. Like you said, the one percent of people can get on a hoopie, I mean less, it's one hundredth of one percent have access to a place like that. So the rest of us are calling stream song and they're booked fourteen months in advance.

00:45:53
Speaker 3: Well that's the thing. Bandon's accepting reservations in twenty twenty four. They're booked until then eighty. It's a crazy So like this is a supply.

00:46:02
Speaker 4: And demand situation in a way, right, Yeah.

00:46:06
Speaker 3: I think that, you know, I always say this, like I think the I think they're where people are missing the boat a little bit is building new courses, and I think it's a little bit harder. But there's a lot of great golf courses that people don't know are great golf courses that are available for a lot less money building a new course.

00:46:22
Speaker 4: But like I mean, you also talk to a guy like I think you know Mike Young.

00:46:28
Speaker 2: Right, yes, yeah, from Lagrange yep.

00:46:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, he talks it tells me all the time, like he obviously, the Fields is like an hour from Atlanta, hour fifteen hour and a half from Atlanta. But he gets guys that come in and they fly into Atlanta and they go to Sweeten's and they go to the Fields, and then they drive all the way across the state to Ake and Golf Club, you know, and that's their trip. Is like they hit those three places, and it's like, really, drive by a lot of good golf courses on the way to those that you know, would would make your life a little bit easier. But this destination golf, Like people are driving And I always use this, like people fly to Portland to go to breweries. You know, this is not crazy people like this is kind of the where the society is going. I always, though, say that it's way better when you can do a golf trip. And this is why I'm such a big fan of like Grand Rapids. There's a lot of good golf in San Francisco too. Like when you can do a golf trip to a major metropolitan I think that it and it's the same thing if you can go if you can fly into a city and play clubs around the city, which not a lot of people can do that's a way better experience than going to these remote areas because there's actually like culture and things to do off the course to experience right right, And I can.

00:47:47
Speaker 2: See where they're getting members too for these new projects, because five years ago, you had let's say a handful of destination private clubs and you can get called on pretty easily unaccompanied, or somebody would host you. And now the t sheets are so slammed that they've all restricted a lot of guest play, and it's just harder to say, hey, you know you remember at secession, can I get eight guys on over? They're sold out. They don't want you over there. And so if I'm getting the heisman for a lot of these private clubs, and I hear there's a new one coming up and somewhere nearby there in Buford, I'm interested in joining because I want to be the guy that says, hey, I just joined this club. Let's take eight eight guys over to this destination private club. But we'll see. But it's it's interesting that private local clubs have shifted more towards the family. The target member for these new destination clubs is your fifty five empty nester has time to travel. So twenty years from now, that person is retired and not looking to travel two weekends a month to there. So all these things have a life cycle and a target membership and how it evolves to me is very fascinating.

00:48:56
Speaker 4: I think there's something too about parenting.

00:49:03
Speaker 3: And I think about you know, I can't ever compare myself anymore to the target market, right but right, I think the expectation and the role of dual parents has changed a lot where for a lot of people, the idea of being a member of a club that they go to a couple times a year, maybe twice, say two trips a year is a lot more palatable to you know, their partner and their family than the idea of a place that you spend every weekend at all year round. And I think that's one of the things that these clubs present is that there is there is a person that's a national member of club, and whether it's Destination or an out of town club, that is actually not a member of a club in their hometown. Sure if that makes sense, because you've got you've got kids, sports, youth sports, you've got all these things. You've got your job, and you know, the only time you can really go play golf is if you if you depart, you know your responsibility.

00:50:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. We talk about this a lot on on my Business of Golf podcast, and it's it's univation.

00:50:25
Speaker 4: Listen.

00:50:26
Speaker 3: It's good to listen. I like the variety of topics. I mean, I was going to give a plug on the intro, but yeah.

00:50:32
Speaker 2: Shameless plug the course record show. But we we talk about it all the time, and I think one if things normalize a little bit and T sheets aren't so packed. And I don't know if this involves NFTs or web three or whatever. All that stuff is a little above my pay grade. But I think there's a VRBO model to be used in golf with these private destination clubs. So you just mentioned I join a destination club. I go three times a year, take my buddies. Like you said, we peel off for three weekends a year. I pay every month for that club. Why shouldn't I get four tea times a month that I can then go sell on some sort of marketplace And not palatable right now because everyone's club is sold out, But when if it gets over built or if there's some slack and demand. I think of Airbnb vrbo model in golf is really appealing. I really do. I think there's a long term utilization is something we talk about on our podcast all the time, and I think is something to keep an eye on.

00:51:33
Speaker 4: Yeah.

00:51:33
Speaker 3: I mean, here you are, you're giving away free business ideas, right, you know, and Astro golf consulting.

00:51:40
Speaker 2: That's what we do perfectly, not for free, but occasionally for free.

00:51:44
Speaker 3: The Uh, there's a there's a court that new course that uh Ogilvy uh and Mike Cocking and Ashley mead or building and Minnesota has an interesting model from what I've read just in news article. I haven't talked to anybody, uh you know that any of the owners about it, but from what I gleaned from an article is that if you're a member, you get effectively like one hundred golf days and you can send four people that. So you know, if you sent a for some of your buddies up there, you can do that, but that would take up you know, that would take up four of your one hundred golf.

00:52:24
Speaker 4: Days, if that makes sense.

00:52:26
Speaker 3: I was, you know, when when Zach Blair was was figuring out you know, his bottle at the Tree Farm. I was I you know, I'm a procrastinator. I might decide that I want to go do something a week ahead of time.

00:52:41
Speaker 2: That's the whole point of being a member of private club.

00:52:44
Speaker 3: And these destination all these destination places are built for type A planners, which I think is like probably the vast majority of golfers or members, you know, affluent golfers. But like, I want a club that I want something that's geared towards me that it's like, you know what, maybe you can't make a tea time and you know, maybe if you if you want to plan six months out with saying no, no, no, right, t sheets closed, Like I don't know that it doesn't work for a destination because you've got to get there. Yeah, But at the same time, that destination doesn't work for somebody who's not, you know, really focused on what the are they day looks like six months in the future.

00:53:30
Speaker 2: Sure, and that fundamentally you have let's say five hundred members and one hundred and eighty people can play golf in a day or two hundred, so you're gonna have some disappointed people if if everyone wants to play. So there's no easy answer. But I think from what I've read about Zach's model, and I'm watching close. I watch all these things. I mean, that's what we talk about on our pod is business side of it. I think his underestimating how much people are going to want to come to the tree farm in the spring and fall, and how little people are going to want to come August and January, and how do you flatten that out, especially when you're capped at forty eight people on property. That's the thing is you get a perfect day in April, you can run one hundred and sixty golfers through a golf course, but not if you can only put forty eight people on property. And how he's gonna handle that, I think is going to be really interesting.

00:54:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's gonna be interesting for achin in general, just with you know, the added golf courses, and I think you know, there's I've heard there's just a ton of stuff going on down in your neck of the woods in general. People have discovered the South Carolina, Georgia, sand Van And you know, for since you're so interested in golf development, there's gonna be a lot of it going on down by you in the next couple of years.

00:54:50
Speaker 4: Because a land cheap. And you know what a Whoopie did was open.

00:54:55
Speaker 3: To everybody's eyes that hey, it can dump rain for you can three inches of rain and you go out there twenty minutes after it rains and you still hear that hollow thud.

00:55:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a twelve month season. It is can be cold and nasty in January February, but you can always play. And if you drink a thousand Gatorades in August you'll survive. It's hot, but it's hot everywhere. It's hot in the Midwest in August, so it really is a twelve month season.

00:55:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Well, you know that a little diversion. We got variety in this podcast. Where can people find your course record show? This is the Course Record Show. Is that wherever you get this podcast, you can get your podcasts. And then you know, also, you got your consulting business Castro Golf Consulting, and then you're the senior advisor at cap Tech Consulting.

00:55:48
Speaker 4: What do you get to do there?

00:55:50
Speaker 1: That's right?

00:55:50
Speaker 2: Cap Tech Consulting is it technology consulting, but also has carved out a cool practice in sports. So we are the official digital technolog provider of PGA of America, PGA Championship, and do work for a few other sports and a few other organizations in golf and beyond. So I spend most of my time with Captech on real business, and then Castro Golf does design and merchandise, and then course Recordshow dot com where we pontificate on the business of golf, and that is on Spotify, Apple Pods, all the places you listen to this esteemed Frida Egg Show.

00:56:27
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thanks for coming on and well we'll talk soon.

00:56:31
Speaker 1: All right, Thanks Andy, thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast.

00:56:47
Speaker 4: We will be back later this week.

00:56:50
Speaker 3: Big thanks to Meg Atkins who edited this podcast. As a reminder, check out the pro Shop. We're starting to stock up stuff. We're going to some new things in there, and you know we're getting close to golf season, so support the Friday Egg. Great way to do that is through the pro Shop. So it's Proshop dot Thefrida Egg dot Com. You've got polos, hats, a bunch of other things. We got prints if you're into photography, a lot of great prints up there. I think we're over sixty courses now. It's a great way to dress up your man cave or your office and we'll be back Friday.

00:57:25
Speaker 4: So thank you and we will talk soon.