Ultrasound system solves the ‘unsticking problem’ in biomedical research

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.

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In this episode, I'm in conversation with Luke

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Cox,

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who is cofounder

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and chief executive

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of UK based Impulsonics.

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The company spun out of the University of

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Bristol in 2023

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to commercialize

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an ultrasonic

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technology

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that solves the unsticking problem,

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which makes it difficult

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to cultivate living cells for biological

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research.

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But first, an invitation to join us for

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medical physics on the July 1.

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Later in the year, we will be talking

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of nuclear fusion.

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Just click on the Physics World live tab

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Now, here's that conversation

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with Luke Cox of Impulsonics.

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Hi, Luke. Welcome to the podcast.

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Hi, Hamish. Pleasure to be here.

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So first things first, Luke. Can you describe

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the unsticking

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problem that Impulsonics

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addresses?

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Yes. Of course. So when you're growing

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biological cells in the body, most of them

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stick to each other in in various ways.

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You know, if you think about your any

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part of your body, it's made up of

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thousands or millions of different cells, and all

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of them stick to each other.

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Typically, when we try and grow them in

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petri dishes,

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for testing and drug discovery,

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or if you're building regenerative medicines, for example,

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then you they still like to stick to

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each other. Cells don't really like being alone,

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and they don't like growing in unfamiliar environments.

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So, when we are growing cells

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in a petri dish, they will tend to

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stick to plastic, and most plastics tend to

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have, special coatings that enable them to

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those plastics have special coatings which allow cells

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to bond to them and may also bond

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to each other.

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But, actually,

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what happens with these cells is every few

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days, they're going to fill their containers, so

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they will go from filling anywhere between sort

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of, like, 20 to 50%

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up to 80 to 90% of the surface

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area of these black containers, and they then

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and they then need to be unstuck

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from those,

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containers so that it can be moved into

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a new one. And although that sounds like

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a relatively simple problem, it's actually quite a

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complex process. So the current approach is to

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use some chemicals that sort of, like, melt

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off the bonds between the cells and each

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other and the plastic container.

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But those chemicals, as you might imagine, are

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not very good for the cells, so they

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need to then be centrifuged down and to

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have what liquid to move and have new

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things added. And all that means is that

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when you stack all of those processes back

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to back, you end up with a very

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complicated process that's quite user dependent, or if

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you want to automate it, requires

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a really large machine with actually lots of

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interconnected parts all have to work perfectly in

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unison every time.

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I see. And is there a worry that,

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you know, when you're doing all this stuff,

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you're somehow,

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altering the cells or damaging them, and that

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could ultimately

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impact

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how you're using the cells and, you know,

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maybe the research that's being done with them.

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Yes. Absolutely. So trypsin is the most common

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chemical that's used

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for unsticking these kinds of cells,

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and that was first used for,

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cell subculturing

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in 1916,

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and it's actually an enzyme from the body.

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But the way that

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it interacts with these cells is to

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literally sort of, like, cut these bonds, cleaving

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is what it's called. But these surface receptors

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are how cells interact with basically

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every other part of the body. So 60%

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of clinical drugs interact

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with these surface markers.

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And when you're

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actually like, they regulate things like

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how does a cell die. So if you're

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using a drug on it, it could make

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a cell more likely to die because you've

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used trystin.

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Ironically, for other surface markers, because they're not

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all affected evenly, it could make it less

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likely to die. So if you're testing an

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anti cancer drug, it might underestimate the efficacy

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of your drug,

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or it could overestimate the toxicity effects or

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underestimate the toxicity effects.

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So you've got all those things. And then

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when it comes to things like regenerative medicines,

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cells obviously use these surface

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proteins to be able to interact with our

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environment. So that means modulating the immune system,

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which is a lot of what

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regenerative medicines do,

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or actually navigating within the body, so moving

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to a place where they are needed most.

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So there's definitely

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variable effects which are generated

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from these,

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from a use of this enzyme,

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and we know we're disinfecting this. You know,

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if you are lucky, it won't have any

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impact at all, but if you are unlucky,

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it's gonna have a huge impact, and it's

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very difficult to quantify that impact when it's

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your standard technique.

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I see. And and so let let me

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so

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where does ultrasound or sound come into this?

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I mean, when I first heard about the

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company, I sort of naively thought, well, yeah.

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They just sort of vibrate those cells, and

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at some point,

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they come unstuck. I mean, is it as

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simple as that, or is it much more

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complicated?

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I wish it was that simple, although maybe

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someone would have done it before then.

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Yeah. So we do use ultrasound, and to

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some extent, yeah, I'm sure you readers your

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listeners will be familiar with the concept that

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sound waves exert a force. That's how it

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vibrates the eardrum so that you can actually

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hear things, what your brain processes are sounds.

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What we do is carefully control the sound

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waves, so we sort of, like, create regions

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of controlled high and low pressure.

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And the real power that we have is

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we are exerting a very direct force on

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these cells. So we combine it with some

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sort of, like, light chemical cues that sort

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of encourage the cells to be a little

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less sticky.

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But the current approaches for it are usually

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either you get automated shaker plates, which are

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rarely used in manual processes, but they sort

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of vibrate the cells around. But there, what

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you're doing is applying a very indirect force

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to the cells.

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With

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actual manual processes, often the,

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the scientists have been known to sort of,

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like, drum their fingers on the bottom of

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a plate all the way through to sort

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of literally whacking them on the table.

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So there's, yeah, there's a real variability there,

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and it depends on the cell type and,

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and the scientists as well. So you get

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you get a lot of variability. So

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our process is sort of, like,

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enabling people to have a much more controlled

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application of force. It's applying that force much

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more directly

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in a way that just moving the whole

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system around doesn't.

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And,

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yeah, enables you to sort of, like, apply

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that directly.

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I see. And so so when you talk

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about how you apply the ultrasound, are you

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do you use, like, an array

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of

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ultrasound transducers and, you know, you by manipulating

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the signal that goes into that array, you

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can focus the ultrasound, put it where you

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want.

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Is that is that basically how it works?

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Yeah. Exactly. So we've got over hundreds ultrasound

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speakers,

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below these plates,

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that they grow cells on. And, yes, as

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you say, we're able to sort of, like,

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focus the ultrasound and control it how we

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want using,

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well, basically mathematics,

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and that allows you to if you think

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about sort of like you can imagine a

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sort of a curved

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speaker would focus all its sound at one

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point, we can achieve a very similar effect

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just by applying electronic delays.

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So I often think of it as sort

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of surround sound for cells. If you've ever

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experienced

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music where you get a plane that feels

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like it's going in one ear and coming

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out the other, it's a similar principle just

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with a lot more speakers.

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I see. And,

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I mean, again, just naively, you know, knowing

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that ultrasound is used,

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in medical applications, you know, indeed,

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pregnant women will have, ultrasound

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scans.

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That it's it's pretty easy on cells. It's

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it's not going to damage

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the cells in the same way as the

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as the chemicals?

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Yeah. So the regime in which we work

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is very safe for cells, and we've tested

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that extensively. So we've done a lot of

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tests to check that the cells are alive

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and they're happy,

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and they're, you know, not changing their health

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or not changing the way that they reproduce

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in any way.

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Ultrasound is a very broad region,

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so there are

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ultrasonic systems, for example, ultrasonic baths or systems

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which you use for lysing cells, which is

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basically bursting cells. So cells obviously have a

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lot of things inside, and you want to

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measure those sometimes.

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But, you know, ultrasound is such a a

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broad definition. If you think about audible sound,

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that can be everything from, you know, a

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child's little little

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piano up to a jet

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engine is all technically audible sounds, but we

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wouldn't say that they have the same health

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effects.

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I see. Okay. And and can we talk

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a bit,

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about the,

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I suppose, commercializing

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this idea.

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So how how is,

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how is this way of of, of freeing

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cells,

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being integrated into a commercially available system? You

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know, what I suppose, what's your offer,

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commercial offer?

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So the current product that we are developing

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at the moment is designed to sit inside

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existing

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00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,100
automation systems.

276
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:23,220
So

277
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,884
you there are lots

278
00:10:25,365 --> 00:10:27,445
in the wild at the moment of what

279
00:10:27,445 --> 00:10:29,205
are known as the industry as liquid handling

280
00:10:29,205 --> 00:10:30,965
robots. You can picture it just as a

281
00:10:30,965 --> 00:10:32,965
pipetting robot. If you think of a a

282
00:10:32,965 --> 00:10:34,884
three d printer but with a pipette instead

283
00:10:34,884 --> 00:10:37,384
of an extrusion head, you get the idea

284
00:10:37,445 --> 00:10:39,605
of how they work and roughly what they

285
00:10:39,605 --> 00:10:42,009
look like. So our first product is designed

286
00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:44,629
to integrate into one of these systems because

287
00:10:44,629 --> 00:10:45,370
once you've

288
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:47,829
got your cells unstuck, what you are going

289
00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:49,190
to want to do is to be able

290
00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:51,509
to actually move them into a new plate,

291
00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:54,230
and we're not, in the first instance, interested

292
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:54,945
in trying to

293
00:10:55,825 --> 00:10:57,144
reinvent the wheel when there were a lot

294
00:10:57,144 --> 00:10:58,565
of these systems out there.

295
00:10:59,504 --> 00:11:01,264
The longer term vision is that we're going

296
00:11:01,264 --> 00:11:03,345
to transform it into something which is more

297
00:11:03,345 --> 00:11:05,585
of a a benchtop stand up device, so

298
00:11:05,585 --> 00:11:08,225
we would integrate those sort of liquid handling

299
00:11:08,225 --> 00:11:11,069
steps. So those are the different types of

300
00:11:11,069 --> 00:11:13,870
people. So larger labs, more established companies might

301
00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:15,889
already have liquid handling, and

302
00:11:16,350 --> 00:11:18,589
they will probably already have some expertise in

303
00:11:18,589 --> 00:11:20,769
being able to use that in house, whereas

304
00:11:20,829 --> 00:11:23,069
there's a huge number of smaller labs which

305
00:11:23,069 --> 00:11:25,195
are all doing this completely manually, where we

306
00:11:25,195 --> 00:11:27,214
see a system being able to

307
00:11:27,754 --> 00:11:28,254
actually,

308
00:11:29,834 --> 00:11:31,615
you know, just be a walk up solution.

309
00:11:31,674 --> 00:11:33,514
So you almost you you walk up, you

310
00:11:33,514 --> 00:11:35,195
put your plate in, you press, I want

311
00:11:35,195 --> 00:11:36,954
two plates out, and then you you go

312
00:11:36,954 --> 00:11:38,394
and have a coffee and and come back

313
00:11:38,394 --> 00:11:39,934
in ten minutes or whatever.

314
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,660
And that's sort of like that's where we

315
00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:44,480
the two scenarios in which we can see

316
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,320
it working. So in some places, people want

317
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,360
thousands and thousands of different or probably billions,

318
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,200
actually, because thousands is not that many for

319
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,179
a plate of cells.

320
00:11:53,945 --> 00:11:56,105
But, yeah, in those places, there's already liquid

321
00:11:56,105 --> 00:11:58,345
handling and then expanding out into really making

322
00:11:58,345 --> 00:11:59,965
sure that you can get it into every

323
00:12:00,184 --> 00:12:01,485
every lab in the world.

324
00:12:02,985 --> 00:12:03,485
And,

325
00:12:04,345 --> 00:12:06,825
I mean, I'm guessing that, that your systems

326
00:12:06,825 --> 00:12:08,345
are going to be used or maybe they're

327
00:12:08,345 --> 00:12:09,325
being used already

328
00:12:10,879 --> 00:12:11,539
in, research,

329
00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:13,620
you know, for developing

330
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,059
medical applications.

331
00:12:15,839 --> 00:12:16,339
And,

332
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:18,720
you know, there there's quite a bit of

333
00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:19,220
regulatory,

334
00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:20,899
or

335
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,980
you've got to get over some regulatory

336
00:12:23,595 --> 00:12:25,214
hurdles, industry standards,

337
00:12:25,595 --> 00:12:26,634
that sort of thing.

338
00:12:27,274 --> 00:12:29,355
It it it is that something is that

339
00:12:29,355 --> 00:12:31,434
an issue for you? And is that something

340
00:12:31,434 --> 00:12:33,754
that you've done already? Are you in the

341
00:12:33,754 --> 00:12:35,615
process of of doing that?

342
00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:39,299
Yeah. So when it actually comes to drug

343
00:12:39,299 --> 00:12:39,799
discovery,

344
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:42,679
so those preclinical testing of drug candidates,

345
00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:44,440
there are no

346
00:12:44,980 --> 00:12:47,379
sort of, like, regulations to first putting something

347
00:12:47,379 --> 00:12:49,345
into the lab. So it is it is

348
00:12:49,345 --> 00:12:51,424
as regulated as your toaster, so you need

349
00:12:51,424 --> 00:12:53,745
your CE or your UKCA marking or your

350
00:12:53,745 --> 00:12:54,884
international equivalents.

351
00:12:55,345 --> 00:12:57,424
But in those cases, all of the data

352
00:12:57,424 --> 00:12:58,404
that you are generating

353
00:12:59,745 --> 00:13:01,365
is indicative as opposed

354
00:13:02,384 --> 00:13:03,285
to actually being

355
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,500
clinical diagnostic data, for example.

356
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:08,720
But that's not to say that there's not

357
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,320
a level of reliability and trust that you

358
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,480
need to build up there. Obviously, scientists are

359
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,360
not interested in wasting their time on generating

360
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,875
unreliable data. It's not going to be telling

361
00:13:17,875 --> 00:13:19,955
them with some degree of certainty whether or

362
00:13:19,955 --> 00:13:21,575
not somebody's going to work in the clinic.

363
00:13:22,035 --> 00:13:24,514
So to that extent, we haven't had to

364
00:13:24,514 --> 00:13:26,375
deal with major regulatory barriers

365
00:13:26,915 --> 00:13:28,514
so far for that, but we are certainly

366
00:13:28,514 --> 00:13:30,134
putting in place a system

367
00:13:30,509 --> 00:13:32,610
that will mean when we get to regulatory

368
00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:34,450
barriers, so we'd so

369
00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:37,490
actually integrating it into those regenerative medicine manufacturing

370
00:13:37,549 --> 00:13:40,929
systems or, you know, we're interested in particular

371
00:13:40,990 --> 00:13:43,790
in being part of personalized drug screening. So

372
00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:46,065
that's when we take copies of your cells,

373
00:13:46,065 --> 00:13:47,684
for example, and we'll test, okay,

374
00:13:48,705 --> 00:13:49,205
what's

375
00:13:49,585 --> 00:13:51,264
anti cancer drug is gonna work best for

376
00:13:51,264 --> 00:13:52,804
this particular person's cancer

377
00:13:53,184 --> 00:13:54,705
or and which ones are going to have

378
00:13:54,705 --> 00:13:56,784
the least toxic effects, for example. And that

379
00:13:56,784 --> 00:13:58,649
can be applied to all sorts of different

380
00:13:58,649 --> 00:14:00,590
things. It's got had some hugely promising

381
00:14:01,049 --> 00:14:02,509
early results, but it's very,

382
00:14:02,970 --> 00:14:05,370
very expensive manually to get a a person

383
00:14:05,370 --> 00:14:06,649
to grow all of these different types of

384
00:14:06,649 --> 00:14:08,090
cells if you want to scale it up.

385
00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:09,450
So then, of course, you would have slightly

386
00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:13,115
different regulatory hurdles to your actual cell manufacturing

387
00:14:13,175 --> 00:14:13,675
things

388
00:14:14,615 --> 00:14:15,115
area.

389
00:14:15,735 --> 00:14:17,894
So, yeah, that's sort of where we're looking

390
00:14:17,894 --> 00:14:20,235
at. So regulation is definitely something on

391
00:14:21,575 --> 00:14:23,575
a horizon, but it's not something we're having

392
00:14:23,575 --> 00:14:25,330
to deal with right now. But we do

393
00:14:25,330 --> 00:14:26,230
need to meet

394
00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:30,129
high reliability standards and usability standards as well

395
00:14:30,129 --> 00:14:33,009
because otherwise, you're just helping people generate useless

396
00:14:33,009 --> 00:14:34,470
data, which nobody wants.

397
00:14:36,049 --> 00:14:37,889
I see. And can can we talk a

398
00:14:37,889 --> 00:14:39,429
bit about the origins

399
00:14:40,075 --> 00:14:40,654
of Impulsonics?

400
00:14:41,914 --> 00:14:42,575
The company,

401
00:14:43,274 --> 00:14:46,254
has spun out of the University of Bristol.

402
00:14:46,634 --> 00:14:48,495
I'm guessing that Bruce Drinkwater

403
00:14:48,955 --> 00:14:49,695
was involved.

404
00:14:50,315 --> 00:14:51,134
Yes. Bristol's

405
00:14:52,070 --> 00:14:53,509
ultrasound expert. And,

406
00:14:54,309 --> 00:14:56,149
I'm sure he's been on this podcast at

407
00:14:56,149 --> 00:14:56,970
least once.

408
00:14:58,309 --> 00:14:59,830
And I'll I'll I'll put a link to

409
00:14:59,830 --> 00:15:01,610
that episode in the notes.

410
00:15:02,789 --> 00:15:04,649
But I'm I'm guessing there were also

411
00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:06,409
were were there some biologists

412
00:15:07,029 --> 00:15:07,529
involved

413
00:15:08,204 --> 00:15:09,804
in this? Can you can you talk a

414
00:15:09,804 --> 00:15:13,324
bit about the academic collaboration that led to,

415
00:15:13,565 --> 00:15:16,065
this the, the launching of Impulseonics?

416
00:15:17,884 --> 00:15:20,365
Yeah. So as you are absolutely correct, we

417
00:15:20,365 --> 00:15:22,290
spun out of the University of Bristol. Bruce

418
00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:24,710
Drinkwater was one of my PhD supervisors.

419
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:27,750
So I got involved in,

420
00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:29,750
the

421
00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:32,950
ultrasonic tractor beam project back in

422
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:34,605
oh, now I'm testing my

423
00:15:35,565 --> 00:15:36,945
self. 2016,

424
00:15:37,164 --> 00:15:38,445
I think, was when I got involved in

425
00:15:38,445 --> 00:15:39,964
that for a summer project, and then I

426
00:15:39,964 --> 00:15:41,904
go on went on to do my PhD,

427
00:15:42,445 --> 00:15:43,324
which was looking at,

428
00:15:44,764 --> 00:15:47,105
optimal acoustic radiation force devices,

429
00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:49,509
essentially looking at ways to

430
00:15:50,049 --> 00:15:51,830
develop highly flexible systems

431
00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:55,169
for particle and cell manipulation. So we've done

432
00:15:55,169 --> 00:15:55,669
extensive,

433
00:15:57,009 --> 00:15:58,470
collaborations with biologists

434
00:15:58,929 --> 00:16:00,929
within the within the NDT group or the

435
00:16:00,929 --> 00:16:01,965
UNDT group

436
00:16:03,325 --> 00:16:03,825
for,

437
00:16:04,684 --> 00:16:06,785
those applications. And we've done a lot of

438
00:16:07,004 --> 00:16:07,504
collaboration

439
00:16:07,965 --> 00:16:08,925
actually with,

440
00:16:09,325 --> 00:16:11,825
I think he's now assistant professor James Armstrong,

441
00:16:12,285 --> 00:16:14,445
then a postdoc at Molly Stevens Group, who's

442
00:16:14,445 --> 00:16:15,264
quite a prestigious,

443
00:16:16,539 --> 00:16:17,039
bioengineering

444
00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:19,120
professor over at

445
00:16:19,659 --> 00:16:22,159
Imperial College London, I want to say.

446
00:16:23,179 --> 00:16:24,779
So, yeah, we worked quite a lot with

447
00:16:24,779 --> 00:16:26,240
James and with other biologists

448
00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:27,679
on various

449
00:16:28,274 --> 00:16:28,774
applications.

450
00:16:29,315 --> 00:16:30,834
One of the really nice things, as you

451
00:16:30,834 --> 00:16:32,834
said earlier, is that we know that ultrasound

452
00:16:32,834 --> 00:16:33,735
is very compatible

453
00:16:34,514 --> 00:16:37,074
with biology and in terms of length scales

454
00:16:37,074 --> 00:16:38,855
as well in terms of where it works.

455
00:16:39,714 --> 00:16:41,790
There was sort of a lot of work

456
00:16:41,790 --> 00:16:43,710
done and won the Nobel Prize not too

457
00:16:43,710 --> 00:16:45,889
long ago on using optical tweezers,

458
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:48,750
which max out in a size at about

459
00:16:48,750 --> 00:16:52,050
the size of one single cell, and ultrasound

460
00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:54,190
can go down to about one single cell

461
00:16:54,190 --> 00:16:56,210
and up to the scale of millions.

462
00:16:56,565 --> 00:16:58,164
So that was where there was a real

463
00:16:58,164 --> 00:16:58,985
sort of, like,

464
00:16:59,365 --> 00:17:01,044
lot of interest in where we have a

465
00:17:01,044 --> 00:17:03,304
lot of needs to move millions of cells

466
00:17:03,445 --> 00:17:04,184
at a time.

467
00:17:05,125 --> 00:17:06,744
So we worked with James Armstrong.

468
00:17:07,365 --> 00:17:09,525
We've been doing some collaborations with him in

469
00:17:09,525 --> 00:17:11,840
terms of characterizing acoustic devices and how we

470
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:12,660
design them

471
00:17:13,360 --> 00:17:15,759
and that sort of work. And then as

472
00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:18,100
we came to the end of my PhD,

473
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,779
which had been more about developing

474
00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:21,140
ultrasonic techniques,

475
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,279
we then started to focus more on those

476
00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:25,875
collaborations and building systems that would work specifically

477
00:17:25,875 --> 00:17:27,095
for the needs of biologists.

478
00:17:28,035 --> 00:17:30,535
So there was sort of, like, two years

479
00:17:30,914 --> 00:17:33,315
there where I was working grant to grant

480
00:17:33,315 --> 00:17:35,394
within the University of Bristol and also doing

481
00:17:35,394 --> 00:17:37,075
some part time work with some other I

482
00:17:37,075 --> 00:17:38,595
worked for Ultra Leap for a little bit

483
00:17:38,595 --> 00:17:41,250
part time on they use ultrasound for haptic

484
00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:43,410
feedback in air, so a very different application,

485
00:17:43,410 --> 00:17:44,069
but some

486
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:46,470
comparable skill sets. And,

487
00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:50,609
yeah, that was something that we've been working

488
00:17:50,609 --> 00:17:53,089
on, basically validating this technology, showing that it

489
00:17:53,089 --> 00:17:54,069
worked on cells,

490
00:17:54,450 --> 00:17:56,390
achieving various manipulation techniques,

491
00:17:56,815 --> 00:17:59,375
and also doing some market research with some

492
00:17:59,375 --> 00:18:00,974
of Innovate UK schemes to be able to

493
00:18:00,974 --> 00:18:02,914
actually understand what are the really big

494
00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:06,035
problems that people are trying to solve

495
00:18:06,894 --> 00:18:07,394
with,

496
00:18:08,174 --> 00:18:08,674
or

497
00:18:09,190 --> 00:18:11,029
not with ultrasound, actually, the opposite of that.

498
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:12,869
People problems that people are trying to solve

499
00:18:12,869 --> 00:18:15,130
that our technology would be applicable to.

500
00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:17,910
And that was how we identified this cell

501
00:18:17,910 --> 00:18:20,150
unsticking or cell passaging is the name of

502
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:22,309
the whole process as a key area where

503
00:18:22,309 --> 00:18:24,965
there was a real unmet need but but

504
00:18:24,965 --> 00:18:26,505
our technology could meet.

505
00:18:27,845 --> 00:18:28,904
And and so,

506
00:18:29,205 --> 00:18:30,345
Luke, what's next,

507
00:18:30,805 --> 00:18:33,065
for the company? You you you mentioned earlier,

508
00:18:34,085 --> 00:18:34,585
applications,

509
00:18:34,965 --> 00:18:36,505
you know, sort of more clinical

510
00:18:37,125 --> 00:18:37,625
applications

511
00:18:38,085 --> 00:18:38,984
of the technology.

512
00:18:39,940 --> 00:18:41,859
So I'm guessing that's one thing that you're

513
00:18:41,859 --> 00:18:44,500
pursuing actively at the moment. But are there

514
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:45,240
any other

515
00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:48,759
applications of this unsticking process,

516
00:18:49,859 --> 00:18:52,359
you know, maybe not related to

517
00:18:52,980 --> 00:18:53,480
biology

518
00:18:53,779 --> 00:18:54,440
or medicine

519
00:18:55,054 --> 00:18:55,375
that,

520
00:18:55,855 --> 00:18:57,554
that that that you could pursue?

521
00:18:59,615 --> 00:19:01,535
So I think the company's focus for now

522
00:19:01,535 --> 00:19:03,134
is probably going to be on the the

523
00:19:03,134 --> 00:19:03,634
biotechnology

524
00:19:04,015 --> 00:19:05,075
aspects of it,

525
00:19:05,775 --> 00:19:08,549
not exclusively related to the unsticking. So there's

526
00:19:08,789 --> 00:19:11,509
replacement of centrifuges for certain applications because we're

527
00:19:11,509 --> 00:19:13,910
able to manipulate cells within the well. There's

528
00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:16,309
also the manipulation of these larger structures called

529
00:19:16,309 --> 00:19:18,070
organoids, which can be made up of millions

530
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:19,769
of cells, so they can be up to

531
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:21,750
tens to hundreds of microns, even up to

532
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:23,450
a couple of millimeters in diameter.

533
00:19:23,904 --> 00:19:25,265
And those are all things for which they

534
00:19:25,265 --> 00:19:27,684
aren't great solutions for manipulating it.

535
00:19:28,865 --> 00:19:29,924
We're probably

536
00:19:30,305 --> 00:19:32,644
not in the short term looking at

537
00:19:33,025 --> 00:19:33,525
nonbiological

538
00:19:33,984 --> 00:19:36,670
applications, but I do still think that there

539
00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:39,230
was some interesting and exciting applications of this

540
00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:40,130
kind of technology

541
00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:44,210
in material science, particularly being able to align

542
00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:48,769
small particles within, for example, a composite structure.

543
00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:50,684
So that allows you to get

544
00:19:52,045 --> 00:19:52,545
anisotropic,

545
00:19:53,005 --> 00:19:56,045
so directionally stronger in one direction, say, x

546
00:19:56,045 --> 00:19:57,184
rather than y.

547
00:19:58,365 --> 00:20:00,365
So getting that anisotropic strength is something that's

548
00:20:00,365 --> 00:20:02,765
been shown in biotechnology using ultrasound and indeed

549
00:20:02,765 --> 00:20:05,000
in composites. So there's some overlap there, and

550
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,079
I think that could be quite an exciting

551
00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:08,859
field if you wanted to do some really

552
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,380
high precision

553
00:20:10,839 --> 00:20:13,559
engineering, which could also be combined with three

554
00:20:13,559 --> 00:20:14,779
d printing, for example.

555
00:20:16,134 --> 00:20:18,054
So I think there's a lot of scope

556
00:20:18,054 --> 00:20:20,075
for these things, and, of course, there's some

557
00:20:20,134 --> 00:20:21,974
really exciting work that people have been doing

558
00:20:21,974 --> 00:20:24,454
to actually levitate particles in air, which has

559
00:20:24,454 --> 00:20:25,994
some broader scientific applications.

560
00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:29,015
One of our engineers, Adam, actually at one

561
00:20:29,015 --> 00:20:30,875
point did some work on, like,

562
00:20:31,269 --> 00:20:31,769
levitating

563
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:34,809
to view proteins and things like that.

564
00:20:35,109 --> 00:20:37,190
And that was, I think, at one point

565
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:39,429
used to optimize the production of chocolate, so

566
00:20:39,429 --> 00:20:41,130
you never know where it's going to go.

567
00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:44,345
But, yeah, that's probably

568
00:20:44,644 --> 00:20:46,484
our goals for the moment are probably focused

569
00:20:46,484 --> 00:20:47,865
on expanding our position

570
00:20:48,404 --> 00:20:48,904
within

571
00:20:49,684 --> 00:20:51,924
the biotechnology market, and that's sort of where

572
00:20:51,924 --> 00:20:53,224
we've optimized for.

573
00:20:54,164 --> 00:20:56,589
And if I can ask you one final

574
00:20:56,589 --> 00:20:58,750
question, Luke. We're you know, here at Physics

575
00:20:58,750 --> 00:21:00,849
World, we're very interested in,

576
00:21:01,549 --> 00:21:02,049
careers.

577
00:21:03,149 --> 00:21:05,809
And I I I know strictly strictly speaking,

578
00:21:05,869 --> 00:21:08,289
you you you you're not a physicist. But,

579
00:21:08,684 --> 00:21:10,465
you know, we'll we'll make you an honorary

580
00:21:10,525 --> 00:21:13,404
physicist for that for the purposes of this

581
00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:14,465
of this podcast.

582
00:21:14,924 --> 00:21:17,164
And I I'm just curious about, you know,

583
00:21:17,164 --> 00:21:18,705
when you were doing your PhD,

584
00:21:19,725 --> 00:21:22,445
did you did you have working for a

585
00:21:22,445 --> 00:21:22,945
startup

586
00:21:23,325 --> 00:21:24,065
in mind?

587
00:21:24,569 --> 00:21:26,730
Is that something that you're interested in right

588
00:21:26,730 --> 00:21:29,210
from the beginning, or did it sort of

589
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:31,609
evolve as you were sort of seeing the

590
00:21:31,609 --> 00:21:34,490
research that was being done in Bruce's lab

591
00:21:34,490 --> 00:21:36,409
and maybe some other labs that you thought,

592
00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:38,774
okay. I can I can go with this,

593
00:21:38,774 --> 00:21:41,014
you know, once I'm once I've finished, I

594
00:21:41,014 --> 00:21:43,194
can I can commercialize this technology?

595
00:21:43,815 --> 00:21:45,734
Where where where when did you get the

596
00:21:45,734 --> 00:21:46,615
idea to,

597
00:21:47,255 --> 00:21:49,014
to work, you know, to to to get

598
00:21:49,014 --> 00:21:51,095
involved in a start up rather than working

599
00:21:51,095 --> 00:21:51,750
for a

600
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:54,009
established company?

601
00:21:55,349 --> 00:21:57,670
So I think the idea of working for

602
00:21:57,670 --> 00:21:59,349
a start up to some level was always

603
00:21:59,349 --> 00:22:01,430
something that was on my radar. I think

604
00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:02,650
it's a little bit difficult

605
00:22:03,109 --> 00:22:04,569
not to have it on your

606
00:22:05,644 --> 00:22:07,724
radar in in the modern world if you're

607
00:22:07,724 --> 00:22:09,565
studying some kind of a technology, but, of

608
00:22:09,565 --> 00:22:11,164
course, lots of people don't go and do

609
00:22:11,164 --> 00:22:13,164
it. I think for me, one of the

610
00:22:13,164 --> 00:22:15,505
big influences was as part of my undergraduate

611
00:22:15,644 --> 00:22:18,140
degree, I went and did three months working

612
00:22:18,140 --> 00:22:21,440
for building services engineering firm called WSP.

613
00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:22,799
And

614
00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:25,200
I I didn't find that

615
00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:26,240
as

616
00:22:26,539 --> 00:22:28,539
exciting, and maybe I was very interested in

617
00:22:28,539 --> 00:22:30,700
working with cutting edge. And building services engineering,

618
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:32,640
of course, is hugely important,

619
00:22:33,794 --> 00:22:34,615
and it is everywhere.

620
00:22:35,075 --> 00:22:36,994
And if that makes it a very, very

621
00:22:36,994 --> 00:22:38,294
stable career path,

622
00:22:39,554 --> 00:22:41,315
and, of course, people do exciting things in

623
00:22:41,315 --> 00:22:43,335
it. But I realized for me, I

624
00:22:44,274 --> 00:22:45,414
was really interested

625
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:48,950
in being the first person to do things

626
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:50,869
and to do things that were really cutting

627
00:22:50,869 --> 00:22:51,369
edge.

628
00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:54,170
And looking around at the world, I saw

629
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:56,150
that a lot of the stuff that was

630
00:22:56,150 --> 00:22:58,494
being done right on the cutting edge was

631
00:22:58,494 --> 00:23:00,414
being done by startups. I think of a

632
00:23:00,414 --> 00:23:01,714
lot of limp the influence,

633
00:23:02,174 --> 00:23:04,015
I have to probably give to Ultra Leap

634
00:23:04,015 --> 00:23:05,794
was one of the companies based in Bristol,

635
00:23:06,015 --> 00:23:08,595
which had previously spun in part out collaboration

636
00:23:08,734 --> 00:23:11,534
between the, Bruce Drinkwaters Lab and the Bristol

637
00:23:11,534 --> 00:23:13,859
Interactions Group that I also worked for. So

638
00:23:13,859 --> 00:23:16,339
I always had an awareness that startups were

639
00:23:16,339 --> 00:23:18,039
doing interesting things

640
00:23:18,819 --> 00:23:19,799
in my fields,

641
00:23:20,339 --> 00:23:21,400
if that makes sense.

642
00:23:22,099 --> 00:23:23,700
So that was something I'd sort of, like,

643
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:25,460
looked at and gone back. Oh, that's quite

644
00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:25,960
interesting.

645
00:23:26,535 --> 00:23:28,075
And then as I did my PhD,

646
00:23:28,615 --> 00:23:31,255
I I became increasingly convinced that there was

647
00:23:31,255 --> 00:23:32,234
something valuable

648
00:23:32,855 --> 00:23:33,674
here, but

649
00:23:34,055 --> 00:23:34,375
we,

650
00:23:35,654 --> 00:23:37,335
there were problems that weren't being solved, that

651
00:23:37,335 --> 00:23:39,015
could be solved with this technology, and someone

652
00:23:39,015 --> 00:23:40,474
was going to have to do it.

653
00:23:41,255 --> 00:23:41,755
And

654
00:23:42,299 --> 00:23:44,380
I figured I would I would give it

655
00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:45,200
a go and

656
00:23:45,579 --> 00:23:46,559
see if I could.

657
00:23:47,259 --> 00:23:49,339
So that's sort of where it came from.

658
00:23:49,339 --> 00:23:52,139
I think throughout my PhD, I was definitely

659
00:23:52,139 --> 00:23:54,059
aware of startups. So, obviously, we're not the

660
00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:55,740
UltraLeap is not the only one to have

661
00:23:55,740 --> 00:23:57,845
come out of our research group. There's another

662
00:23:57,845 --> 00:23:59,384
group, company called InductorSense,

663
00:23:59,684 --> 00:24:00,904
which does these little

664
00:24:01,284 --> 00:24:02,664
sensors that are almost

665
00:24:02,964 --> 00:24:04,804
they're like a sticker that you can put

666
00:24:04,804 --> 00:24:05,304
onto

667
00:24:05,845 --> 00:24:07,204
a a pipe, and then you can just

668
00:24:07,204 --> 00:24:09,065
tap a sensor against it, and it

669
00:24:09,420 --> 00:24:11,259
activates it and then gives you a a

670
00:24:11,259 --> 00:24:12,160
thickness measurements.

671
00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:14,779
So you get really repeatable thickness measurements, for

672
00:24:14,779 --> 00:24:16,220
example. So I could see there was also

673
00:24:16,220 --> 00:24:18,320
a broad range of things, like, didn't just

674
00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:19,900
have to be, you know oh, UltraReach was

675
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,059
very much focused on the human computer interactions,

676
00:24:22,059 --> 00:24:22,799
which fits

677
00:24:23,265 --> 00:24:25,025
maybe within the more sort of,

678
00:24:26,144 --> 00:24:28,865
sexy Silicon Valley image of a startup, whereas

679
00:24:28,865 --> 00:24:31,025
InductorSense is more focused on a much more

680
00:24:31,025 --> 00:24:32,164
hardware industrial

681
00:24:32,705 --> 00:24:35,105
world, you know, something that's perhaps not quite

682
00:24:35,105 --> 00:24:35,605
as

683
00:24:36,410 --> 00:24:38,669
not quite as slick as Uber, for example,

684
00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:39,690
but it's,

685
00:24:40,009 --> 00:24:42,169
still very important, and it showed that, actually,

686
00:24:42,169 --> 00:24:44,650
you can get startups existing within a whole

687
00:24:44,650 --> 00:24:46,269
range of different worlds

688
00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:49,634
and solving solving very different problems and offering

689
00:24:49,634 --> 00:24:51,815
very different value propositions to the world.

690
00:24:52,515 --> 00:24:53,015
So,

691
00:24:53,394 --> 00:24:55,154
yeah, it was just I think it was

692
00:24:55,154 --> 00:24:57,735
something I was always interested in doing

693
00:24:59,315 --> 00:25:02,460
something really cutting edge, and I eventually came

694
00:25:02,460 --> 00:25:03,039
to see

695
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:05,359
being part of a start up as

696
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:08,059
a way of doing that. And for an

697
00:25:08,059 --> 00:25:09,740
extended period of time, I guess I was

698
00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:10,240
just

699
00:25:10,539 --> 00:25:12,400
seeing if it would work and,

700
00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:15,200
you know, knowing that there were other options

701
00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:15,920
available

702
00:25:16,299 --> 00:25:16,755
for

703
00:25:17,795 --> 00:25:20,674
people with technical knowledge as I did as

704
00:25:20,674 --> 00:25:21,414
I went along.

705
00:25:22,194 --> 00:25:24,194
And what what would your advice be to,

706
00:25:24,194 --> 00:25:26,035
you know, somebody who's doing a degree in

707
00:25:26,035 --> 00:25:28,134
physics or maybe they're doing a PhD?

708
00:25:29,154 --> 00:25:30,869
Is the, you know,

709
00:25:31,329 --> 00:25:32,789
the the world of biophysics,

710
00:25:33,650 --> 00:25:35,269
you know, as applied to medicine,

711
00:25:36,450 --> 00:25:37,190
it it

712
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:39,409
it I mean, is that a really growing

713
00:25:39,409 --> 00:25:41,089
field? Is is there a lot of growth

714
00:25:41,089 --> 00:25:42,944
there? Do you think that that's where that

715
00:25:42,944 --> 00:25:45,265
would be one place where a physicist, you

716
00:25:45,265 --> 00:25:47,904
know, could look for a career, you know,

717
00:25:47,904 --> 00:25:49,585
either in a start up or in a

718
00:25:49,585 --> 00:25:50,804
in a larger company?

719
00:25:51,265 --> 00:25:54,224
Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think what's very

720
00:25:54,224 --> 00:25:54,724
interesting

721
00:25:55,184 --> 00:25:55,684
about

722
00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:56,880
biotechnology,

723
00:25:57,579 --> 00:25:58,799
particularly at the moment,

724
00:25:59,339 --> 00:26:02,140
is that there's this huge drive for data

725
00:26:02,140 --> 00:26:02,640
quality

726
00:26:03,259 --> 00:26:05,259
because a lot of people are looking at

727
00:26:05,259 --> 00:26:06,779
their AI models and they're looking at their

728
00:26:06,779 --> 00:26:07,839
data and they're going,

729
00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:10,275
a lot of this data isn't that good.

730
00:26:10,835 --> 00:26:12,535
I'm going to

731
00:26:12,835 --> 00:26:14,434
just feed some noise into this model. I'll

732
00:26:14,434 --> 00:26:15,714
need to generate new data, and that was

733
00:26:15,714 --> 00:26:17,555
something that was actually recognized of a The

734
00:26:17,555 --> 00:26:20,595
UK's AI for science strategy recently. But there's

735
00:26:20,595 --> 00:26:21,095
also

736
00:26:21,634 --> 00:26:24,115
a huge amount of opportunity, I think, at

737
00:26:24,115 --> 00:26:24,695
the moment,

738
00:26:25,394 --> 00:26:26,250
for not just

739
00:26:27,369 --> 00:26:30,329
quantity and quality of data data, but actual

740
00:26:30,329 --> 00:26:32,009
depth of data, looking for new types of

741
00:26:32,009 --> 00:26:33,630
data, more predictive data,

742
00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:37,049
and new ways of engineering things. And I

743
00:26:37,049 --> 00:26:38,670
think there's also a lot of interesting

744
00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:40,349
physics based problems,

745
00:26:41,164 --> 00:26:43,724
to be solved in that world, particularly when

746
00:26:43,724 --> 00:26:45,644
we look at regenerative medicines and cell therapies.

747
00:26:45,644 --> 00:26:47,585
You know, I speak a lot about regenerative

748
00:26:47,644 --> 00:26:49,184
medicines in particular because

749
00:26:49,724 --> 00:26:50,944
that is a

750
00:26:51,325 --> 00:26:55,299
emerging linguistic distinction from cell therapies which tend

751
00:26:55,299 --> 00:26:57,380
to be more focused on things like t

752
00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:59,539
cells, which are grown in suspension. So they

753
00:26:59,539 --> 00:27:01,460
grow floating because they would normally sit in

754
00:27:01,460 --> 00:27:02,039
the blood.

755
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:04,680
We have applications in that area, but

756
00:27:05,619 --> 00:27:07,000
for simplicity of the explanation.

757
00:27:07,859 --> 00:27:09,640
So that's something but there's definitely

758
00:27:10,154 --> 00:27:11,515
a lot of growth and a lot of

759
00:27:11,515 --> 00:27:13,835
interest in that and actually those interactions of

760
00:27:13,835 --> 00:27:15,375
how can we build

761
00:27:15,674 --> 00:27:17,355
new drugs, how can we build new medical

762
00:27:17,355 --> 00:27:18,575
devices, and in particular,

763
00:27:19,275 --> 00:27:21,674
there's a lot of interest in making bringing

764
00:27:21,674 --> 00:27:24,090
things much closer to the patient, which is

765
00:27:24,090 --> 00:27:26,750
maybe where physics comes in at the most

766
00:27:27,049 --> 00:27:28,809
interesting level. So one of the most interesting

767
00:27:28,809 --> 00:27:30,009
examples of this I can give is there's

768
00:27:30,009 --> 00:27:32,090
a company called Siloton, which is based in

769
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:33,869
The UK, which is based in Bristol,

770
00:27:34,330 --> 00:27:35,309
and they use,

771
00:27:35,769 --> 00:27:38,109
quantum chips to be able to actually

772
00:27:38,494 --> 00:27:41,535
measure how your eye is degrading. So for

773
00:27:41,535 --> 00:27:44,255
people who've got eye degradation conditions, for example,

774
00:27:44,255 --> 00:27:46,015
it transforms it from something that only gets

775
00:27:46,015 --> 00:27:48,414
sort of, like, infrequently tested in the hospital

776
00:27:48,414 --> 00:27:50,975
into something that can actually be located very

777
00:27:50,975 --> 00:27:52,355
close to the point of care.

778
00:27:52,735 --> 00:27:53,875
So that actual

779
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:54,730
creating

780
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:55,849
much better

781
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:58,630
diagnostics and putting it really close to the

782
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:59,849
point of care is

783
00:28:00,230 --> 00:28:01,130
hugely important

784
00:28:01,670 --> 00:28:03,750
and being able to put more sensors into

785
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:06,150
wearables, for example. You know? I look at

786
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:08,070
I've got a a smart tracking watch and

787
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:11,434
the the blood flow measuring techniques were, you

788
00:28:11,434 --> 00:28:13,994
know, originally used on on pilots in World

789
00:28:13,994 --> 00:28:16,234
War two clicked onto the ears, but actually

790
00:28:16,234 --> 00:28:18,474
being able to reengineer that to be able

791
00:28:18,474 --> 00:28:19,994
to fit into a watch and just be

792
00:28:19,994 --> 00:28:20,494
a,

793
00:28:20,875 --> 00:28:23,115
yeah, single single sided sensor and all that

794
00:28:23,115 --> 00:28:25,329
sort of thing. That's there's a lot of

795
00:28:25,329 --> 00:28:27,269
physics there, I think, particularly in the census

796
00:28:27,490 --> 00:28:29,250
space would be where I'd be looking as

797
00:28:29,250 --> 00:28:31,409
a physicist interested in that world. And, of

798
00:28:31,409 --> 00:28:33,649
course, it's hugely rewarding because you are helping

799
00:28:33,649 --> 00:28:35,029
to improve people's lives.

800
00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:38,375
That's great. Oh, so some exciting stuff there.

801
00:28:38,375 --> 00:28:41,095
I should point out that, I believe we've

802
00:28:41,095 --> 00:28:41,595
covered,

803
00:28:43,335 --> 00:28:43,835
well,

804
00:28:44,294 --> 00:28:47,355
possibly your work, but definitely somebody in Bruce's

805
00:28:47,575 --> 00:28:50,130
lab's work on acoustic tweezers.

806
00:28:50,829 --> 00:28:52,670
And so I'll put a link in the,

807
00:28:52,910 --> 00:28:55,710
in the podcast notes for that. And I'm

808
00:28:55,710 --> 00:28:57,809
pretty sure that the folks from Siloton

809
00:28:58,429 --> 00:29:00,429
have been on the podcast as well. Oh,

810
00:29:00,429 --> 00:29:02,509
well, go and listen to them. You can

811
00:29:02,509 --> 00:29:04,125
find out what I'm saying what's wrong.

812
00:29:05,005 --> 00:29:06,845
It is a small world. So I'll put

813
00:29:06,845 --> 00:29:09,244
some I'll put the notes I'll put a

814
00:29:09,244 --> 00:29:11,644
link to that in the notes, as well.

815
00:29:11,644 --> 00:29:13,724
Well, Luke, thanks so much for coming on

816
00:29:13,724 --> 00:29:16,464
the podcast and talking about impulsonics.

817
00:29:16,845 --> 00:29:18,625
It's a it's a fascinating story,

818
00:29:19,049 --> 00:29:21,630
and, we wish the company very well.

819
00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:24,190
Thank you, Hamish. Thanks for having me.

820
00:29:31,815 --> 00:29:34,234
That was Luke Cox of Impulsonics.

821
00:29:35,095 --> 00:29:37,674
Thanks, Luke, for a fascinating discussion.

822
00:29:38,534 --> 00:29:41,095
Don't forget to check out our series of

823
00:29:41,095 --> 00:29:42,794
live panel discussions

824
00:29:43,174 --> 00:29:44,634
covering quantum metrology,

825
00:29:45,255 --> 00:29:47,980
medical physics, and nuclear fusion.

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Click on the Physics World live tab at

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00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,819
physicsworld.com

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00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:55,179
for more information

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00:29:55,639 --> 00:29:58,220
and to register for these exciting events.

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00:29:59,125 --> 00:30:00,964
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

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for this week's episode.

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00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:05,845
I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred

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Isles.

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00:30:06,884 --> 00:30:08,744
The theme music for our podcasts

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00:30:09,204 --> 00:30:11,980
is called one three seven, and it was

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00:30:11,980 --> 00:30:13,359
composed and performed

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00:30:13,740 --> 00:30:14,720
by the physicist

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00:30:15,339 --> 00:30:16,240
Philip Moriarty.

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We'll be back again next week.