#352 - Joe Galante Legendary Music Executive and 2022 Country Music Hall of Fame Inductee + On Signing Alabama, Kenny Chesney, Dave Matthews Band and More! + How The Death of His Friend Keith Whitley Affected Him

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to episode three fifty two. One of my most favorite episodes. That's this one right here. Joe Galani music executive. Sure sounds cool, but really one of the biggest, most influential ever in the history of country music, if not the most influential ever. He is going into the Country Music Hall of Fame, which is really really hard to get into, even as a massive artist. Also going in this year is Keith Whitley and Jerry Lee Lewis. Like that should tell you. Only three people many people were It's just such a hard thing to get into. But he is, you know, that influential, and so it's just stories about him going wow, yeah, I'm not scared to take it on. Let me see what I can do here. I believe him myself, never done it before, but let's see what happens, and just saying yeah, I'll try it. I mean, it's really cool. It's it's awesome, right, really cool. Like a little bit, I was like, dang, he's too big, too cool to be here in the studio. That's really how I felt. But I like him a whole lot, and I haven't spent a lot of time with him personally, but at the very end of this podcast that do finally tell him and how kind of affected my life here in Nashville. I think he went through way earlier things that I went through way later as far as people go on, wait, you're not just like us, and he just crushed it. So you know, he signed artists like Clinton Black and Kenney Chesney, Sarah Evans, Vince gild The Judge, Martina McBride, Lorie Morgan, Katy I was like carry Underwood, Chris Young. I could go on and on, but just so many things that he talks about here are still happening because he was like, what if we did this and it just worked and he sold anyway, that's the deal. He was like the youngest guy to run a record label back in the day. Right, I don't think I'm making that part up. That is correct, And you know I did a thing where I'm super interested in the acts that he found, and he discovered the ended up being big stars and also his career. So I tried to make it like when I watched like a cool Netflix series and they kind of flashed not around, but they like cut two storylines back and forth. And so we talked about an artist he signed, and then I'm like, all right, so this part of your career, you did that. And I tried to go back and forth a little bit just so it would be engaging to everyone if you want to hear about the artists he signed or his career. So I like it. I'm glad that you're here. This is a big one for us and a big one for me. And I don't think I've screwed it up, which is just a relief because sometimes I'm like, well I screwed that one up. Good enjoy Episode three two. Here you go, Joe, Glani, Joe. We have important people that come by here, but then we have really important people to come by here, and so I don't know what strings. Who got you to come up here? Is my question? Because you know somebody yeah, right there in the mike we're talking to micro How did I? Oh? He did? I've known him forever. So Tom Betchy is, for those listening, one of my managers. I have two managers, and Tom Betchy um is very well connected and obviously Joe to get you up here. So I appreciate you coming up here. That's really nice of you. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, you can pull that down if you'd like. Whenever I saw it's always a big deal. Whenever they announced the Hall of Fame inductees, and I was just looking to see who's gonna make it this year because I know Ronnie and Kicks got in last year, and um, and I saw you, and I was like, holy crap, that's all. I was so excited for you, and I wonder, did you have any idea that you were up for it, that you would probably get it? Like, what did you know before they announced who was going in? I knew I was on the ballot, and um, actually I voted on the first round for what I can say his name, Irving Law. And uh, the second ballot came out and I was removed from the category in terms of being able to vote. And I called Brendon over at the c m A and I said, what's up with that? He said, we can't have you voting for yourself. I said, I wasn't gonna do that, but I completely get it. So whenever they announced that you made it, because you've you've done so much. We're gonna talk about a lot of that. How does it make you feel at this stage of your career to again get probably one of your highest achievements. Um. It's not something that you really ever think about cold because it's such rarefied air that you really don't think you get there, And it's not something that I think most people that go in there really strive for. It just happens so humbled, honored in disbelief. Well, congratulations, that is quite the honor. And again, you've been honored in so many ways over so many years. This has got to be quiet. Maybe refreshing is not the word for you, but I don't know it. It almost probably feels new, like something new for you. I feel like you've done so much well, like to be in a Hall of fame with all these country stars. Like, is there anything that's that's similar to this in your career? No, no, no, no no. I mean when I did the when Ronnie and Kicks hosted the press conference for the nominees UM and I was standing there just before I went up, and I looked on my left and there's Hank Senior into the right as Patsy Klein. I went, what am I doing here? You know, It's just it's that was it really was? You mentioned that and again I can appreciate your humbleness, but what are you doing here? And I can list ten thousand reasons why you are in the Hall of Fame and I've done so much. But I was kind of going over some of your personal history, and that will get to in a second, where you moved from New York down to Nashville and back to New York and back to Nashville. Uh, But I just kind of want to start with some of the acts you've signed and kind of bounced around between your career and the acts that you've signed and what you saw in them early, because there is such a skill, maybe even an instinct, and you can tell me, you know, what part of your talent or or or a gift that you use when finding these great acts. But if we were to talk about Alabama, for example, what did you see in that group that early? Who actually was at the country radio seminar that I saw him for the first time. I'd heard about him several times, and my boss at that time was Jerry Bradley, and unbeknownst to me, he was tracking them at the same time that I was, and I went down it was the you know, the show used to be just one band, and then everybody came up and sang with that one band. So you mean there's like a house band, and then all the artists would come in got it, and so Alabama got up there and it was you know, they didn't use the house band, but they were part of the house band. And I think that's always a tough gig anyhow, you know. I mean it's everybody's sitting out there and you don't quite know what to expect, and you're nervous. But they were natural born entertainers. The harmony was unbelievable over Andy Owen still to this day is one of the greatest country singers we've had. Whenever there's a group like that. And I guess what year one? Okay, so eighty one or so? And what was the wine and dyne process like an eighty one? Or were they? Were they being pursued by multiple labels? I know you said someone else was tracking them as well. I have friends now that are you know that people want to sign a deal and you have five labels coming out of them. They're all promising on things and doing nice things. But what was it like an eighty one? When you find an act that you really like, whereas nobody else pursuing them. They were on a small independent label called M d J and Dale Morris was the manager at that time, and so it really was just a direct negotiation between us. There was no other competition for them. Whenever you sign them, do you say, all right, here's our here's our vision for you? Or was Alabama? So did they know who they were at that point? How how green were they when you signed them? Oh? No, they were not green. I mean from a live standpoint, they were. They were seasoned and they've been doing it a long time, a lot of ships. Yeah, And in terms of vision, I think at that time we didn't know what the word vision meant. It was just we like you. We think you've got the potential and the songs. I mean, you know, my homes in Alabama, Tennessee River Mountain music feels so I mean, you know, you get the story. It's just it's all there. And they only got better as performers. And one of the first things that we did was we did a tour of rock and roll It's like the bottom Line and the Whiskey out in l a Um and we flew in a bunch of radio people and industry people, and even then people were just going, we've just seen the country beatles, and so it was early on in their career. But the other thing too was Randy Owen, the lead singer UM was probably in another life, one of the best promotion people I've ever seen. He just locked onto both retailers and radio people, anybody he had to know and take care of and make sure that they were doing a good job. He was focused on it. There's no such thing as a slam, donc especially in anything creative. Right. We may think we have it. There have been times the ritten things and I'm like, this is it, and it's not. It's just not. And there are times where it's just a throwaway something where I'm like, I don't know, I'm just gonna and it becomes this wild success when you have something like Alabama uh, an entity like that. What was the first success with that band where you went, oh, yeah, like I knew they were good, but now we all know they're good and we're here with them, you know, in a business sense, we got to Mountain music. It was all over. But I'll take you back for a moment, because country music at that point was still very much a regional format. You know, we were southeast, midwest, southwest, a little bit of each of the coast in Alabama was the first act where you remember the Tower Record stores where actually went to the meeting with them and they went, what's up with this band? Normally they were inquired that they wanted more about their country section was about seven records deep, and uh, they really were excited about it. So that was one of the first signs that we had that we were kind of getting outside the neighborhood. You grew up in New York and so what town It was actually Queen's Okay, so you archery, archery, Bunky territory, Oh yeah, and da. So when that show was on and it felt like that was happening in your neighborhood, Oh yeah, I mean I could relate because all those houses were built the same. They were all attached row after row of those block after block. So you grow up and what music is influencing you, and you know, the sixties, Stones, Beatles, Dave Clark five, all, you know, anything that was the British invasion was huge at that point. You know, a little Richard, I mean, it was just typical rock and roll. So for you growing up in a time where like even if I look back, I mean that was probably music at its peak right at whenever that I think that culture consumed so much, they owned so much of the market share, we'll call it that. Um, why get into music though professionally? What made you go I gotta do this, not just to let let me get a record and just listen to it and love it. Why why would you want to get into it all the time? Well, I actually when I came out of college, I interviewed with several companies, and our CI as one of the two companies that are from to be a gig. And at that point when I was interviewing, and I was a little too cocky. At that point, I was sitting down. The guy was the head of UH finance and he and I said to him what division because it was our CIA So it was cornet carpet, banquet foods, random House, UM, NBC, and then our CIA Records. And I said, what's our c A Records? He said, what do you mean? I said, Well, I'm an avid collector. I don't have any of yours. I know my labels, and I don't have one of your things. What do you mean? You know, we're very strong and show tunes and we're very strong in classical music. And I'm looking at him, going really, But so I went to work for our ci A and it was not something I was thinking about as a music career. I was just thinking about a career like a job. Yeah, I'm out of school, I got a wife, I got a kid. Let's go. What do you do in school? Like what you're going to college? What do you think you were going to do? I came out. I was looking for business opportunities. So I was a finance major in a marketing minor. So you studied money. He studied marketing. Wasn't so much study anythink about music or Yeah, I played in a band and I was pretty poorer at it, and uh, you know I love music. Listen. I mean I still remember walking around with that transistor radio when we were kids. Just listen to w ABC radio. You go to our CIA in what year sevente and in that three or four years before you come to Nashville, Like, what were your job duties? And my assumption is you climb pretty fast in New York. So what did you start as and what did you end as in New York, I ended up as a product manager, So I had my elite roster at that point because I was the kid that they didn't know a whole lot. They gave me the struggling artist called David Bowie, lou Reid, and several other acts that nobody really remembers at all. And if r c A was like you mentioned, just to paraphrase what you said, like a lot of show tunes. Um, you know David Bowie lou Reid, that's not quite show tunes. Were they going into a new kind of area? Yeah? When I joined, they weren't on a label, and certainly they hadn't succeeded. Um, they had things like the main ingredient at that point and uh Buffalo Springfield for a brief second, you know that kind of it was more one hit Wonders than it was anything else back in So what my assump sho would be is that most country musical was on AM radio. Okay, So why what a fellow like yourself is doing pretty good New York decided to move to Nashville to pursue um a career in a format that's mostly on AM radio. And I'm assuming you didn't grow up around a lot of country music. The only country music I heard was on AM radio. So Johnny Cash, Eddie Arnold, Skeeter Davis that at the crossed I heard it like like a Johnny Cash across. Yeah. Sure, So you moved And how did you get approach about moving to Nashville. Uh? I got called into the opposite of the general manager in the head of human resources and said, we have got a great idea. We think you should move to Nashville. And your initial instinct was hell, no, what what do you what is? What's down there? Why would I want to go down there? I'm here, I'm I'm in New York and uh there. Their instructions to me were, just go down there for two years. I think it'll be a good experience for you. You'll learn the inner workings of a smaller operation, and if you don't like it, you can come back. And so I came down and met with Jerry Bradley downtown at the Hilton Hotel and um, when I got back on the plane and I went home to my wife, I said, well, I'm not going to get that job, because I know I pissed him off. You know, I just we weren't on the same page. So I go into the office. That was a Friday, and I came back to the office on the Monday. They called me in and went, I'm expecting here eight. It's all over and they said he loved you. You're going down. I want what did you tell your wife? Only two years? It's only two years. So do you think they were being truthful when they said go learn it and come back, or do you think they really maybe had you in mind to go down and knack, really make something of it. Now at that point, it was really just go down and see what you can. You know, companies at that point were really a and our entities and there were promotion departments and everything else was at in New York. Um, it really wasn't. It was a small business and people were still learning how to you know, market and develop artists on a national basis for getting international. So you're in your early thirties when you come to Nashville. Um, actually, wow, you're in the early twenties. So you moved down and you're working at our CA. But what is your job when you move here? First? Because I know you're the you know, one of the youngest if not the youngest person to take over a major label. But so you move here in your twenties, what do you do. I had the glorious title of Manager of Administration, which really meant whatever Jerry wanted me to do, I did. But it really was trying to um bring some semblance of order to the various departments, trying to get them involved with the corporation overall of the r c A corporation. I mean, I had been in the company number of years. I had a lot of friends in the promotion department and sales department. So Jerry was, Hey, go up there and meet with them, see what you can do for our records. And that was part of part of what I did when I come back to that in a minute. And that's where we are. You've just arrived in Nashville and you have a job that sounds like I don't know what it is because the words are so vague. Right, You're you're doing it all. Um. Let's move over, Ben and go to another artist. Uh, Kenny Chesney. So you met Kenny around what year? Uh? And what did he have going for him when you met him? Well, the story is Dale Morris. We're coming back to the same person, Dale Morris. I was getting ready to move back to Nashville, front running the company in New York and Dale called me over the weekend instead, I've got this kid, Kenny Chesney said, who's Kenny Chesney. Well, he's on Capricorn. I think you'd really like him. I said, well, send me the record, you know, and we'll have a cover station. So I got the record, and I thought it was interesting in what way as a songwriter. I thought he had a unique perspective. He was a country singer, which at that point, from looking at the roster, we certainly could use a few more of those. And he had been out working the road, you know. I mean he had been working through the whole process. I had a respect for Capricorn Records, and um Dale said, I think I can get him off. So that's what we went down the road. So Capricorn Records. My assumption, as you have never heard of Capricorn, I'm assuming they're not around anymore. Maybe they are Walman Brothers and those kind of guys. That's the Phil Walden was though, the original guy that ran that company. Small. Yeah, so Kenny's on a small independent label and so you guys identify him as someone that you think you could make into a major star. So you have the records, you listen to it. He has an interesting perspective and an interesting way to present things. So you call him up, you go see him. What happens. Actually we met months later in the office and uh, you know, I mean he was young. I mean he came in, you know, it was it was almost like George straight light. I mean he was really trying. I was was the cowboy hat then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's crazy to think about. Had at Kenny. He's just not that anymore and hasn't been for for a long time. And so he says to you, like, what's what's Kenny Chesney's goal? Because he's on Capricorn and you guys are do you think there's a nice relationship that can happen there? What does Kenny Chesney tell he wants to do with his career at that point, he wants to be one of one of those guys that everybody, you know, Phil small Stadiums weren't in the conversation at that point. So it's Phil Arenas and I want to be one of the biggest stars out there, and I'm sure a lot of people say that. I mean, I think pretty much everybody probably says that I want to be a big star. But why was Kenny different as far as aside from the record that you heard and you thought his presentation was interesting and his songwriting, But why Kenny and why did you think he could be the massive star that he is now? He worked his ass off, and I mean he really whatever he didn't have as a skill as an entertainer or as a writer, he would go out and find those guys and spend the time to learn. I always thought it was interesting he when he was in town, he was always going to see shows, something he continued on much later on. You know, uh he went out and toured with Alabama when he didn't need to tour with Alabama. He'd go out and open for George Jones when he need to open for Georgia. He just wanted to learn how do you entertain? What are you doing that makes it so different? And they were, you know, his heroes at the same time. When did Kenny go from being a guy that had some moderate to good radio success to being a superstar in your mind? Uh m hmm. Early two thousands and what was it a song? Was it Forever Feels? That was the one, and you could probaise you're where you are. I'm sure there are certain songs we can just feel it. You're like, Okay, we're looking at sales or we're looking at concert tickets, like this is the element that is changing it. He he actually was doing better business concert wise than we do we're doing on records at that point, so he was making more money at live shows then you were selling. He was selling records. Yeah, but I mean what you had were people think about back then in the late nineties there there's no Internet. People were just showing up. It's word of mouth, and so people are going out to see him. And what we needed to do was connect the dots he had. You know, we'd have a hit. No, we'd haven't missed. We'd have a hit, we'd haven't missed. How Forever Fuel was the first time we started a string where we just kept going at it. Well, that string, the consistency of the string. What you say you started to hit him in a row. What was the consistent I mean in terms of numbers or no, in terms of you started to put them together. But but what was this was that a certain texture of the songs, the tempo, an idea, what it was? He Beach Kenny was like, what was it? Now? He hadn't reached beach Kenny yet. He was getting there, and um, he was developing the identity, you know, coming out with the rock and roll t shirts, the type jeans, the whole routine, working out physically getting there because it was a physically demanding job that he had, and really spending the money on the production. He knew that he needed to make a bigger and bigger show. But you know, when we made records, we pulled four singles off, sometimes five singles, and left singles on the album that we could have pulled out. So the quality of the music was there, and it was it was everything from the beach. But then you'd go through, there goes my life, you know, I mean, you know, it just it covered the gamut. And occasionally he would write them, but most of the time they were outside writers. You know, I often say that I love slow Kenny, like I connectually slogan anytime Kenny's doing a ballad or uh slightly slower than mid like those are my Kenny Chesney songs. Tequila. Yeah. Oh man, that's my favorite songs ever. And so like Slow Kenny, that's my jam. Sometimes when it does the beach stuff in the fast stuff, I don't even like the beach So I'm like, you know what, I'll pass on this one. But like, man, the guy's got an emotional catalog. So Kenney, Chasney, Big Star, Mount rushmore of artists. Sure, let's go back to New York. You moved to Nashville, you're working as some administration position. Um, and so do you start to climb here? Is it was that a goal of yours to climb here? Was it a gold New York? For you to climb here New York? At that point, I think I was off the radar in New York for that two year period. We check in occasionally with each other, but um, I think the turning point for me was the jury began to see Jury Badley began to see when I go to New York, I'd bring something back that helped us. And I had this conversation with him one day because I kept I was not in charge of promotion, but I was trying to figure everything out in terms of country radio. I really had not been involved with the format, and we kept getting these records that didn't quite compete with everybody else on the charts. But I mean, to the most of us, it's sound, dude, like we should be competing. So I dove into promotion and tried to start figuring out meeting with people, going out with the promotion, guys, hitting radio stations, and you know, I came into jury one day. I said, you know, we're not we're not doing what we need to be doing. And he looked at me and he said, well, go damn god, damn it, go figure it out. I said, well, I'm not in charge of promotion. He said, you just go figure it out. I'll take care of it from there. So I came back and I said, well, here are the things that we need to do. He said, okay, I'll put you in charge. And wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait, I haven't run a staff. You know, I've been in promotion, but I haven't run a staff. And so that was the trial by fire, and that fire. As you're in the fire, do you realize that it's easier, harder, or that you're naturally good at it, or it's something that maybe you didn't have the instinct for it, but you could work really hard and figure it out. Like where did you fall when you got into this promotions world and now you're running it? I felt like I could do it, but I needed the experience, you know. I was surrounded by other tables where guys have been doing this stuff for ten or fifteen years. I've been doing it for fifteen or twenty months. So it took me time to build those relationships and understand the system. But then I went after it. Did you feel like a little bit that you were at the right age at a time when things were changing and you had the right vision and mindset, because again, if you're working with guys that have been doing it fifteen years, I mean even you know, and eight and it's a significant change since seventy five seven makes as far as technology, um, And you know, I think I got lucky being this age because I was using the internet and you know, doing podcasting stuff before everybody was doing it. But I happened to be very young at the right time and severyone's like, wow, I look at this guy's doing all those revolutionary stuff. No, I was just twenty two, and it really wasn't revolutionary. I just was young doing it. Did you find that a bit of that was because you were younger and you were actually using the technology of the day instead of having to learn it at an all age. That was part of it. But I also think just like you, you you given an opportunity, you went after it, and you you were not afraid of trying things, and that gave you the entree. The same thing with me. I was not afraid of trying, failing if I need, but I was going to go after it. And you know, anytime I needed to be on airplane out in l A, out in New York, out and Dallas, I just went. And you you build those relationships and you begin to understand the stations and the personalities and the markets. And that really did help me when I went back to the the artists and said, look, this is what's coming back about the music and why we're not succeeding, or if we were succeeding, this is all the good news, and there's not really a lot of bad news. And at that point, um, we had not developed a system. We were just getting to the point of you know, the tracking systems like the BDS and media base. That was just coming on, you were still dealing in archaic systems where people were yeah, hey it's uh yeah, it's in power. They would just say how many times they played, and you had to of them. So you're credited with really changing the formula of how promotion is done to sell records. What did you do in your mind that was so different? Well, one of the things was bringing the new artists out. I mean we created the original promo tour. I mean Loretto was the person that did it, and we would just used the same model. It started with the Judgs, and we went out with the Judds and took them into studios and brought radio people into studios and that worked. But what we found out later on when we did Katie and Clint was that if we went to the actual stations, then people went in there, you met everybody in the station. You know, they cut jingles, they'd cut liners, So there was an advantage to going to the marketplace. Prior to that, people didn't really travel around to radio stations. Is it crazy to do that? That's that's still the thing. It's a personal business, you know, it's it's nice to play it, but you want to know something about him sometimes that personal relationship is what gets you over the hump to hitting a record. So what I hear you saying is people always a people of business, whether it be a songwriter, producer, or manager, it's always people. Let's go to the Judge for a second. Growing up, for me massive because my mom loved him. She would sing them all the time. Like one of the memories I have of my mother is her singing why not me? Or just it was all Judgs all the time. Uh. And you know you have a mom and a daughter, and I don't know that I have seen that before, a straight mom and a daughter that made it to a level like the Judge or even a mid level. So uh, you're you're signing a you got invest money in them? Like what did you see about those two that made you think that was something to put a bunch of money into? And we'll believe in We used to when we go out to l a Um, we'd stay at this little hotel called the Park. And the guy that was in charge of current productions, Dick Whitehouse, who passed away about a year today, I forgo. He and I have been trying to do business for a while, just had never hit on anything. So we had breakfast and we were in the suite talking and he was getting ready to leave and he's I said to him, you got anything for me? He said, well, I've got this mother daughter and I've got a work tape, but it's not ready. Wait wait till we get back. I said, what do you think that when you hear a mother daughter before anything else? It's magic if you hear I have a mother daughter. Are you like? That's so original that if they're good, I want it because I don't. I've never heard mother you know, before them, and I don't know and have the experience you have it being around. I just haven't heard a mother daughter do it on a level of contemporary and and they were even on the demos, they were great. So I said, look, I'm gonna be back in Nashville on Monday. Why don't we get together anytime next week? You tell me when. So I think it was Wednesday or Thursday, the week when On and Naomi came in three songs they walk out. I go. I called Dick and said, we've got to we've got to make a deal. And we did that day. What do they maybe you don't remember, what are they coming and think they have a guitar they doing in acapella stuff. No, they had a guitar, and uh, you know Why was playing and singing and they were doing the harmony and Naomi is entertaining telling you the stories and honestly don't remember at this point. So one of them must have How old was she a teenage Robbia? Yeah, sixteen seventeen is crazy? And to have a you know, you hear about stage parents a lot. That's a literal stage parent that's apparent on stage with you and you're doing it together. What was that dynamic like for them early? Because they're equal stars, Yeah, but they're not equal in the house that so I would assume that's managing that dynamic would have been tough. It took a moment I think that you know, Why was beginning to see that she was the center of attention, but she did need her mom for the harmony part and also for the entertainment part. M hm. And why just was really good talking to people, you know what I mean? Naomi was Why was still she was a kid, but she was she was gaining the experience rapidly. So you're going station to station, you're doing. You're figuring it out. Data is happening because you found a new technique, right and you're you're starting to slowly see it. When do other companies start to see what you're doing and how it's working, and they start to mimic what you're doing several years later, but you just you know. Then we went from you know, those promo visits to the bus tour. We would go around the country on a bus. And at first we did it just as a label, going into radio stations you know, and hitting them and take them on the bus, showing the videos playing on the music talking for a while, you know, three cities a day, just keep going around the country for four or five months, and then we got the idea to start doing bus tours where you would bring the artist to the radio station on the bus and again take them on spend the time just that. We had that down for a couple of years before somebody said, oh, we'll do that too. It's also a costly I mean, it costs a lot of money to move an artists around for months and a bus, and it's time consuming for your staff coordinating everything, you know, getting everything together and making sure that you've got everything you need and at the same time, promo guys have it to keep you know, working on those records. So you're promo touring your head of promotions. When does that turn into or maybe there's a couple of steps in between, but when do you actually take the helm uh, cherry stepped down and two? So I took it right after that? And how did that feel to you? Like it's my time or like holy crap? No? Well, I know at that time the company was kind of like, mm hmm, are you ready for this? Yeah? Is it because your age? Yeah, more than anything else, because it sounds like you've done things that nobody else has done. You've seen things and ways I haven't been seen it. Had you maybe been forty five, they wouldn't have asked the question. Possibly, So you're thirty two and they say you're ready for this? And what do you say? Yeah? What did you feel though? Inside? Yeah? I felt like I could do it, you know. I mean again, just as I said before about running a staff, running a label is a different thing than being like the GM. You know, the buck stops there. What new responsibility did you have running a label that maybe you didn't know you were going to have when running a label, when you start building a roster, that's a completely different experience than just working records, because you're painting a picture. What you really do see should represent this label? And where are the holes in the marketplace? What is the competition? Got what do you have? Can you do better than they are in the various areas? You could have three women on the on the roster, but maybe they weren't better than Tricia. You're worth you know, you gotta find where So we had the jugs, you know you could crack through and you know, moved on to Lourie Morgan and you know, it was just working through that process of trying to find. When you build a label, you build a catalog and you have to have those artists that are gonna have a long tale, be able to sell for a long period of time. If you just have a series of one hit wonders, you're just constantly spending. You're on a durable wheel. But building, yeah, you know, you have to be consistent about the music, consistent about the moves with the manager in terms of during what are you doing on the TV personel? How do you get them on the shows? Moving through the entire process. I have a friend who is a pitching coach at a major university and another school called him and say, hey, let you come and be the manager. He's like great, always been looking for the opportunity of a manager. He gets over and he realizes this. He does really enjoy the job, and you know he loves being a manager, but he can't spend in the much time with the pictures anymore. Like the thing that got him there, that he loved to do. That he invested all this time in learning and teaching and communication in talking about pitching, he could not do as much. So here you are. You've created a new template for promotion and finding artists that but now you're running a label. Did it pull you away from what you were really great at a bit and where you couldn't spend as much time? Obviously you couldn't be on the road as much. But did it take you away from what you loved? And did you have to find people that had similar vision as you. There's no way you do this as an individual. You have to have a team. And that was really I think for me a process of learning how to pick the right people, which allowed me to spend less time in the field and more time with the artists, but more time with the artists also meant not just the studio but being on the road. So it was a balancing act as the head. Who was your first major success that wasn't already on the artist like you couldn't let's say, we have to take everybody all the table that you'd already found, you had nourished. But you're the head. You find somebody brand new, first major success running the label, Judge, judge with the first one through? Were you running the label when you found him? You were? And so is there a different kind of you know, just being straight proud whenever you're the head, guys at a different feeling. Well, the moment for me was when Conway Twitty, my assistant, said, come, Twitt's on the phone for you. I said, Conway, he said, I just heard the judge. You've done a damn good thing. Boy hung up. It was like, okay, I got the stamp of approval. Uh. Clint Black, who I think it's so cooled. I have a relationship with Clinton now and growing up in Mountain Pine, Arkansas, I knew every Clint Black song. I mean, he was just a hero musically to me and someone that I never thought i'd get to know much. Let's be friends with I mean, guy as smart as a whip, like funny, and when people come into my show, for the most part, I feel like they'll come in, put some bowling bumpers up, take care of him. You know, we'll make them look good. That's my job, make them look good. They don't sound good. But I'll make a with Clint. There ain't no bumpers, and I gotta watch out because he's gonna he's gonna give it to me real good. So tell me about meeting Clint and what it was with Clint that what it was about Clint that made you go that guy's a star. Well, first is the voice, second was the look. Third I found out how funny and smart he was. Because you know, you you go in and you you meet the guy, and you know you're a little bit intimidated, and it just took a little bit of time for us to break the ice. But then you just said, man, this guy, he just he can really wrap his you know, his arms around the crowd and they just feel like it's family. And then the songs, I mean, just one after another. You know, I mean killing time, no news, I mean just the way we run through that. And he was, Um, yes, he was a country singer, but at the same time he was one soulful son of a bitch. I mean just the ability for him to just approach each of his songs a different way sometimes live, not just give you the three minute version, but do what Clint can do, which is just well and then play. I saw him over the course of the tour of the first couple of years, really get to be a guitarist. Prior that he was a rhythm player, but he did learn how to play in lead, in the lead guitar. Sarah Evans. Yeah, whenever you signed Sarah Evans, what was it that drew you to her? Because she's a bit of a wild card and I enjoy being around her because I never know what I'm gonna get with Sarah? What's she like that? In early days? Um, and that first record we made with Pete Anderson was really a throwback to Loretta Lynn Day's reviewed critically but not commercially successful. Big personality, big voice, Um, great at collaborating with people, so it you know, it was a process again almost like Kenny to a certain degree. You know, we get one, lose one, get one, lose one, and then um, no place that far came out. We got Vince on the background at that point just started taking off from there. So you're running the label you put in eleven years or so as the head of the at first move New York. Yeah, about a decade or so. Um, I mean for you before you moved to New York, before you came back. What was the high point in that first decade to run for you as far as your career, you know, I mean I think we had been named label of the Year for a decade. Wow, really yeah, and that was that was pretty powerful stuff for us, you know because people coming in out of that slot and we held it. Were you so hard to get ahold of your the I mean King Dingling in Nashville? Everybody you could change lives like that. I mean, you were the biggest guy in town. I gotta imagine everywhere you went, somebody trying to hand you a tape, something calling your office, dressing up like a delivery man coming in. That's stuf had to be happening to you all the time. You know. If somebody called me, I returned the call within twenty four hours. I always did that. I didn't leave the office, still always done just it was about relationships. And you can ask anybody that worked from me or work with me all during those years. I called you back the King and Nashville is calling people back all day. Yeah, I mean that's the job. You gotta stay in touch with everybody. I mean, I get it, But I would just think at some point when everybody wants to get in touch with you, that will be hard to have enough capacity. Well, you start setting up where you have an A and R department of your promotion department, go see so and so. And if you then come back to me, but not directly, why do you go back to New York. It was the reverse of the other, the argument that got me down here. I went to my boss, came down from b MG, and I thought he was hitting around about me going to work in New York and I, you know, and I don't know. I'm happy here. Everything's good. I was about to get married. Uh, you know, we had planned the wedding and for November and uh and just at the beginning of August, I just finished a worldwide meeting. Everything and gone well and get the phone call and he says, come on up, I'd just like to have dinner with you. Strange. So I go up and uh, he said, I'd like you to take over the label um running call the all the divisions. And I said, ah, Michael, I thought we rule that out. He said, no, you're the right guy for it. He said, but you've got five hours to make the decision. When this dinner is done, I need your answer by eleven o'clock tonight. Why do you even have a dinner now that you've gotta have a decision. That's all I'll be thinking about. Is there trying to run through my head all the scenarios. Passed the mashed potatoes and I went back to the room and called my fiance at that point, France Schwartz, and I said, I think I can do this. Are you up for it? We were both ex New Yorkers. It sounded like a good idea at the time, and so I called him back and went into the office. Next day he fired. He fired the president that morning and I walked in called everybody in, had our first power wow, got back on the plane and went back to Nashville because I came up there with like on the overnight bag. So I went back and then you know, all hell break loose, you know, because I'm gonna have to move to New York. I'm about to get married. I mean, it's just crazy. So and what does your fiancee think about the move back home? She was excited about it because she was a New Yorker. Um, the unfortunate problem was she was working for Arista with Tim Dubois. She was one of the original founding members of the Arista group. And then, um, she goes up there and she doesn't have that job anymore, so she's got to go find it, you know, job up there. We're trying to find living in New York and get used to the roster. You got a hundred acts where we had, you know, fifth theme. It's a different world completely. Were you more excited about going home or a different challenge? That's a different challenge, And what was different about it the I mean maybe the difference was just how wide the net was, all different sounds and different types of artists. We had had the jazz department, the Art R and B department at that point, the rock department, and then pop and then country reporting to me. So it was the whole portfolio. Do you have a pardon hiring your replacement Nashville? I guess, And so you go up. Uh, you know, I was just kind of looking at some of the stuff you did when you went back, and I'm a fan of both or two of the acts that are directly credited to you, one of them and Dave. Um, so, Dave Matthews Band. How does how does does he and that group get to you? Well, we're pre internet and so kids at that point. Um that you may remember when you went to see a band, you'd make a cassette tape and then you pass it around the dorm. And we had a group of college interns and this one college intern said, all my friends down here in the South, they got this guy Dave Matthews Band, and you know you need to listen to that. That's how it got to you. Wow. I went to one the college department, reported to one of the guys in an r who actually is here. Pete Robinson is here in natural as a publisher and um, we went to wet Lands, Um butcha myself, UM, a few other fun guys and we walked into this place the show was supposed to be at two o'clock in the morning. Walk in at like one two o'clock in the morning. Walk in there, there's nobody there, and I'm looking at the n R group going two oh one. About many five guys started walking in ball caps. She knows about two oh five. The place is packed out and everybody. Everybody's doing the same thing thinking the cassette player putting it in front of the band. Dave comes out and I looked at Butcher one point, we're probably halfway through the set, and I said, do you think you can get any of this stuff on the radio? He said, Uh, I don't know about that. Joe was it long jam band stuff? And I said, you know what I said, I think we just go for this because regardless of whether it goes on the radio or not, this is the most exciting thing I've seen in years. And then we went down and negotiated with cornycap Shaw and uh, we actually put the record out because MTV at that point was the eight Pound Gorilla, and we put an independent record out hit Everything, no affiliation to our CIA. People saw this record come out, they were jumping on it. Did you hide it because of what their brand was? No we hit it because we knew that if we put it out, MTV wouldn't be excited about it because they liked the indies. They got him, so okay, So MTV's brand played into it. God, MTV started going, well, you guys, you need to pursue this, and I said, yeah, we'll get it, got it, started making the videos, went on MTV, and then everybody figured it out later on. It was an end. You mentioned Corn, that's like my guy, you know, and he's I you know, Dave was playing at his bar and you know, found the bassist and you know put that. I mean, what what a story and what a way to build a career the way he built it throughout the touring spectrum, I mean, unbelievable. The first gig that Dave played west of the Mississippi was in Seattle at our annual meeting. He had never been up there, but again people flocked in. Was it a convincing that you had to do with Dave to go, hey, let's make these songs three and a half minutes and let's make you know, really obviously real catchy hooks, and you know, what you do is awesome. But for the radio, it's a different animal. But did you get it? They just let them go. You know, I think they're our format is that animal. Dave was a completely different entity completely. You just let him do what he did. You know. It was funny. We did an international meeting. We had started to really you know, gold seven or fifty thousand units, and I went to an international meeting in Barcelona, and I was all excited because these guys have been waiting for us to come up with something for years and we just hadn't delivered. So I walk in here and I do my presentation, and you know, I've got Dave on the big screen and everything, and we're doing the video and everything, and I look out and most of the international guys that got their heads down at the desk, they are not interested. They're sleeping there, napping, and they just never got it. It was an American thing. What do you think that thing is? Like? What? What? What about? It is so American that someone international wouldn't get three and a half minutes? Yeah yeah, I mean tour, Yeah, if you want a tour, which he didn't really do a whole lot of, but not for the radio. Woutang, I mean again, Wu Tang was everywhere for me as a kid, not the same as Dave. You know. It's so, what about Woo Tang and what stage did you start to get to know the guys. We had done a production deal with a guy named Steve Rifkin. Loud Records was the name of it. That Big a Loud Loud, and um, we had had a couple of you know, get the first base, and that's as far as you went with a couple of the acts, and they brought in the Wou Tang and the demos of that, and everybody in the company just flipped, so you know, it was part of the deal itself. So we got it and then we started to develop it. Was it interesting to you guys in a positive way that they all had their own independent personalities and names and characteristics. I mean because in hip hop groups for the most part when I was a kid, they didn't all stand out as individually and then work as well together at the same time. And all the guys, I mean, they did so much stuff separate, but they were always Wu Tang, So that was a positive with you guys. I mean, you had all the I mean you saw it on stage. They were all distinct personalities. And I mean, and it was East Coast. You know, there was the West Coast out there, and you had all the doctor dre's and everything else. But this was an East Coast man and they really did move the needle Hot ninety seven. I mean, you know, it was when there was rhythm stations out there. Was there a decision to make when they wanted to do solo stuff of which ones of them that you would sign and which ones you wouldn't or did you? Did you? Because I don't think you sign them all? Did you individually? No? Not At that point. By the time they started doing solo, I was gone, okay, so okay, you're gone, We're gone. It was quick, all right, all right, where'd you go? I went back home? And why why back to Nashville that process. Um My boss had a very unrealistic expectation in New York. Yeah, he thought, you can turn this thing around in a heartbeat. And we were we were so far down in the hole. We didn't register on any meter. So it's like turning I got a CDL license from my form A TV show, and I realized it turning around an eighteen wheeler. You can't just turn around a eighteen wheeler. It is very slow, very methodical. It's sound and if someone's like you turned this around real quick, it just didn't happen like you wish it. But it wouldn't happen. First year, eighteen months was getting rid of people in acts. I dropped sixty acts six eighteen months. The intro stage was eighteen months, changed all the people, drop all the acts. None of the acts came back to harness. And then you start building your team and that takes time. And then what started to happen was then you know, Dave comes on board, s w V WU Tang. But I just wasn't happen the fun because you were you were trying to serve too many masters, and the expectation was we should be doing a lot more, a lot sooner. And I just kept going, it's gonna take more time, it's gonna take more. No, no, no no, And I went to, look, you know what, maybe we're not meant for each other. So I'll leave and I'll go back to Nashville. I'll find a gig. And then this when he said, no, no, no, no, no, You're not gonna go to work for somebody else. You're gonna go work for us, and so I moved back here. When you move back to it felt like home again. Oh yeah yeah. But I mean at the same time, you know, I've been out of Nashville for four years. Things that started to change. Sound Scan had come on board, and now you really started to see what was happening with record selling and you know, players were different. You gotta get back down here. Me know, all the songwriters, all the publishers, everybody knew me. But you still got a good in the pecking order. You know, how do you jump ahead? Isn't it crazy? In four years in the creative space? I mean it's like dog years. You've got four years. It's not that's not four years, that's uh generations because you've had so many, even small changes in how the artist done, who the writers are, people that are coming with new idea creatively. So you come back after four years, what did you find the biggest change was after that short time that really wasn't that short. Well, the first thing I did was I went back out to the radio stations and I said, what's going on? Tell me what's going on? And I can read a chart, but what's going on in the marketplace and the artists themselves. You know, we were at that point where there was going to be a new group of people coming through the Brooks and Duns and Allen Jackson's has really started to come on strong. But there was room for more and so it was an opportunity. It was just going out there and finding out. Okay, tell me what's working, what's not working, what are you missing. One of the things they told me was, you know, people become stars that ever come back to visit us. So you know, we'd start taking the artists out again, you know, the Alabama's of the world. Go out there and see the radio stations and you curry favor and you get the opportunities. And the first act that I signed when we were down there was Minnie McCready and you know, we had a double platinum record out of the gate. And then you know started again with Lori Morrigan and you know John Anderson and just things started to click. But it took a couple of years. Did you feel like you brought back the people elemented? And somehow four years people didn't value it as much. Well, I think that you know, people looked at it and said, well, you know, can he do this again? I don't think so, you know. And so there was a lot of well, prove it to me, and I went, okay, I'll prove it to you. And it took us probably three years to get ourselves back, and because the roster had started to fall apart two um and then we came back basically, you know, with the r C A label group with r C A and B and A changed the way we were staffing the label and how we were approaching things. Um. And then I spent a lot of time during the first couple of years basically taking songwriters. I take them over to the house. I just sit down with him and say, look, this is what we're gonna do. Give us an opportunity. If we don't do what we said we're gonna do, you don't need to. It was the songs, but give me a jump ball. And I did that with a bunch of writers, and you know, found that we started getting the songs again. And you know this down it's songs. Yeah, you know, you get that going. You know, we can make good records. There are a lot of great producers here and musicians, but you need the damn songs and you need them continually, and so we just we did the same thing with songwriters and publishers that we do to radio, treated them better than anybody else, and they found that when we went after it, you gave us a record. We did the job. In my I guess ten years or so. Here now, I've seen a couple of real, you know, medior type successes where someone's like, bam here, I am boom. Superstar doesn't happen a lot, maybe only two that I look at and go, dang, that was quick, and that was that was like extreme success. I missed the al Dean. I missed Al Deane wasn't here. I heard that was a kind of a rocket shift. I was here right after f G L, So I did not that, and I hear that was kind of a rocket ship. Um, obviously I've been here for Combs, Luke Holmbs. I've seen nothing like that before. And even Sam, you know Sam, same kind of way different, just launched universally loved until he got so loved that some people had to be like, I don't love Sam anymore, you know, And I think that's that's always been the goals get so big that you have some sort of backlash right, because that just means you're you're a monster. Who am I missing? And I'm sure I missed many? Who else did you see come into town and just kind of go all right, I'm here, I've got some a little different and then boom away it went what you're you're talking about? No, I'm talking about and just your whole time in Nashville because I've only been able to see the last tim Oh yeah, Faith? Um, the chicks seemed to be so different? Was there? And this analogy is not going to be good when I use Sam. But that's that's all I can really lean on, is that Sam was and listen Sam as country as it gets as a person and grow. Did the chicks have any like they're not as they're not country? Did that happen at all? Not at all? Even though Natalie was really or their sound is different? How about their sound is not? Really? Yeah? I mean those records just they exploded and when they got on stage, you know, they really shined at award shows. So the chicks? Who else? If you can think of Faith, yeah, I mean Faith definitely. When I mean, you know, you start off doing covers and then you all of a sudden you wind up with a song like Breathe. It's huge. It's just you know that pop crossover changes the game dramatically. But the question always is the same thing. How do you follow that? And what do you start doing musically? Do you stay true to your country roots or do you follow what New York and l A Are saying? Give me more of that? And when you do give me more of that, you kind of lose the country base. And that's what happens. You don't get that success. Shania, were you here when that was? Well? What was that like? Oh it was we couldn't believe the numbers. I mean all of us on the other side, we're going, what the that can't be? And it was and it was international and and that very rarely happened. So you have these monster stars in Nashville, and it's someone that's an international star like Shania. Could she be in Nashville and still feel safe? Yeah? I mean the record as long as you know, it's the same old thing. If the music is there, you're okay and you can go internationally. But the reality is when the music starts to tell off, then everybody starts poking holes in you, and by tail off, you mean, if it's not country, you mean the country folk will be like people would take the crossover and be happy with it. But when you start losing and you start again, you go to the other side, making records for pop and not considering your country base, that's when you have a problem. Let me ask you about outlaw country for a second, because the more I read about it, and I do consider myself a bit of a country music historian, and that you know, if they do a documentary on some of the older stars that I grew up watching my grandmother, she was the whole influence on me. Right if it's when they shot the PBS Charlie Pride, I was right there, like I freaking love char Pride, And so I feel like I got a lot of it down just through learning and reading and watching videos. But the outlaw country things interesting to me and slap me in ahead and tell me I'm wrong. But I feel like at first that was very much a marketing tactic. There was the outlet, and and now there's this romantic with old school country fans that it wasn't that they were just robbin stores, and well, I think there's they ran parallel tracks. I mean The idea was, you know, Jerry Bradley, who I was working for, as I said earlier, remember the time Life series of those books. He took that art and that's where was the outlaw. That was the basic outline of the album and called it Outlaw the Outlaws, and uh, you know, I don't know. Tom Paul was an outlaw. Neither was Jesse at that point. But William Whalen, you know, buck the system at that time. You were supposed to be recording in our c A Studios or Columbia studios. That was part of the deal. We had a union and both of those guys that really where the outlaw came from. We're not going to record there. You guys are you know you're on the clock. I don't want to have to follow the clock. I want to be able to record when I want to record, and if I want to go over, I'm gonna go over and I'll pay the overtime for it. And that just didn't sit well with the powers that be, and so they did stuff outside the system, and that was outlaw. So that not punching record executive in the face, spitting on it's out and that again the formula that had been built. They were just going, we don't want to live in this formula because we feel like we can create in a better way, in a different way. Yeah. And also they were the way they approached their music the I mean they were covering you know, Bob Seeger. What is Bob Seger got to do with country? The lyric? I mean, Whalen just you know, supporting Steve Earle when the town wasn't supporting Steve Earle. It really was about the music, the music, the music. If you were with him on the music, you're good to go. What regardless if one up where it went down, He didn't care. He just wanted to make his brandom music. Same with Willie. My grandmother would tell me because Johnny cashy from Arkansas, that's where we grew up, and that she would go to some Johnny cash shows before he really blew up and crossed over because you know rock, he was everywhere Christian, he just covered it all. But when he was a country artist and she knew he was a county artist, people would be at the shows being he's not a country like angry like, he's not a country. And it feels to me like that has always been universally said, like since the beginning, like any sort of movement in any direction, it's always said, well that ain't country. Did you find that to be frustrating in your time? Oh? Sure? I mean, you know, I remember the first time we we worked Carrie on She's Just Take the Wheel, and you know, we had a bunch of stations coming back and going, well, she's an American, I don't wanner, she's not country. Listen to the song. What are you talking about? She's not country? You know, girls from Oklahoma listen to her talk? Yeah, what do you want? I mean, you know, she was on a show that gave her a platform, but it doesn't mean that she's not who she is in her heart. But that's I think that's you know, we go back to you know, Leava Newton, John John Denver when they were on the country charts. You know you had people go, Oliver Newton, John, you know, she's not country. What's he doing in here? I mean burning the slip? But his name on a Fredertainer of the Year. Yeah, Charlie Richard, Yeah, I was there at that show. So what Okay, So I've listen, I've seen the show, I've seen the presentation there I've seen you know, John John den He's not there obviously in the room. Are people like ha ha, that's funny, or they like, yeah, that's right, Like what you know. I think going back at that point, a large part of it, it too, is it's business. So what is John Denver doing for you as a publisher or you as a manager, or you as an agent or you I mean, aside from us our c A having the John Denver catalog one of the few beneficiaries in the town. There were some people who had parts of songs. But you know, normally when you know Luke Hombs Wins or Morgan Wahlan wins or you know, Eric church Wins, publishers in the town, producers in the town, everybody sharing in the excitement and the wealth to a certain degree. But also they feel like it's here, You've recorded in Nashville, You've made the record in Nashville. So it's that sense of ownership and also protection to a certain degree. So then by that logic, John Denver was outlaw country. I don't know he would ever said yeah, yeah, I get the point I mean, And John Denver made country songs absolutely absolutely, Thank God, I'm a country boy, and when he did the Awards show, they were highlights. You know, the music shuts everybody up at the end of the day because when you beam in and you're not there, that's one thing. But when you get on there and you bring that fiddle out and everybody goes, I guess he is good. So like Rocky Mountain, I didn't go to all the John Denver songs, and I'm just like I at this stage in two I am a bit in disbelief that John Denver finger quotes wasn't country. Now, I understand why you're saying that, because people feel like he's not one of our group that's helping the couple calling an economy that's helping the economy here. But I mean, I was how do they not think John Denver's country? I love love John Denver and always you know he wasn't even from the Rocky Mountains is what's crazy like to me in my head, he's marketed as the mountain Man. But yeah, he definitely made some country music. Well you're going to the Hall of Fame. I I just that is that is just so cool. I wish I had could be more poignant there and but that is just so freaking cool that you're going to the Country Music Hall of Fame. Thank you. That's um. You know. One of the things I've been doing over the last decade is I've been going to those press conferences and just because I've had so many artists that I've signed or friends who have gone in, and I think of all the things that I've done, it's one of the most intimate nights and special nights. You know. We're always used to big things, especially on our award shows and everything else, but this is a much smaller, more intimate part of it, and it represents people that aren't always entertainers and recognizes their work. So you know, Eddie Bears goes in, or you know, you sit there and you go, oh my god, and you hear the story, you understand what's going on, you know, and it could be Ronny and Kicks. I mean, when Ronny and Kicks were getting ready to introduced me and we were talking about and what was your reaction when you heard about it? And Kicks looked at Ronny and he said, we just looked at one another and one you gotta be kidding, you know, which is basically how I felt like, because you really don't expect and I don't think anybody ever ain't that I know of aims for it. You just you your job and you know, the God smile upon you you get in there. I got three final things for the number one's Keith Whitley. He's going in with you. What do you remember by Keith? Oh God, the voice, the smile, the sense of humor, the love of the format. Oh my god. He just you know, I think back to those Well, it's the same thing. You start to go down that path and it's just bump after bump and you're finally starting to make your headway. Miami, Miami. You know you're starting to get there. You make this record that would have catapulted him into the male vocus of the year. On those strange with the reign, you know, you just go, oh my god, and then he's gone. And then the fact that it was Laurie and Keith, it would have been George and Tammy all over again, because those two singing together, those are two great classic country voices. But Keith, um, you know you were talking about what I was talking before about being a label head, and I mean I had dealt with whaling through some of the drug problems and him getting clean. But I hadn't been on the other side. I had been an observer. And nobody tells you about addiction. You know, it's not something that you know. You you learn as you're getting in this whole thing. But you know, we tried so many different ways to get Keith to get clean. And you know, I remember sitting down talking to the the therapist and saying, if he doesn't want to do it, you can't make him do it. And so it was one of those things that you just it was such a such a loss in such a waste. At the same time, there's a very personal question regarding that. And I'll tell you at the same situation with my mom, and you know, my mom died very young of drugs and alcohol. I would check her into read Haves and I would say the same thing, like what do we gotta do here? And they're like, well, you can do this, and you can pound the hammer and you can, but if she doesn't want to do it, it is never going to happen. And that was a really hard thing for me to accept. I don't know that I still accepted, honestly, And I get it, and I understand it, but there's a very very difficult thing for me, and there's still guilt that I have even trying to facilitate, trying to support, you know, with you going through that situation with him, any of those feelings, because what happened was Laurie called me. We were launching Laurie's record and we were about to do the promo tour and she called and she said, what do I do? I mean, I don't know whether he can handle my being gone. I said, Laurie, it's your call, but this is what you want to do. I mean, I was going to be anybody with Keith, and she said, yeah, there will be people with him, and the decision was made to move forward. But in he died. Um my fiance and Randy Goodman came running in to Maud's down the road. At that point, I was having lunch with Eddie yar Old and and motion for me to come over and said, Keith just died, And so I hurried through my lunch with Eddie because we had a fine Laurie. Laurie was on the road, nobody had cell phones. She was in a car going and you did not want to hear that come over the air. Hey, Keith Whitley is just DoD. We're really sad about that. And she's in a freaking car and we found her in Seattle, thank god before it happened, and then flew her back. But I remember getting that album and driving around the row for hours just playing it over and over again because Garth Fundas and I had gone in the studio and I went, it's that album that you're just sitting there and going, oh my god, this is perfection commercially, artistically, it is the soul that he is. He has, It's just it's there, and then just crying because it You know, did I do the right thing? You know? I appreciate you sharing that story with me. Uh, this is number two of three. You miss it? You know you're retired now, you know it's what I know when I can sense And you're such a creative. Even though I don't know if you'll give yourself credit for being a creative, you are because you've changed so many things and how this industry was is and it's still do I mean, it's still working towards Do you miss it? I miss the process of making the music. Um, I don't miss all the the bull that we went through now, especially with the corporations and all the initiatives they have and and the way the system has changed where people are. It's so much about data and enough to me about gut because I can't tell you how many times we made a decision. It was kind of like, take this shot, and you know, it's a game of chances. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And you could have all the data in the world. Doesn't mean that some you were talking about before in terms of songs, do you think this works? It doesn't. I didn't think this one. It's just that game. You don't know till the people get a chance to really spend the time with it. But that's the part I miss. However, you know, I've spent that time since I stepped down with the c m A. And I still work with Kenny, so I get my fix. You know, it comes in and it comes in lots of different ways, working Robert Deaton on the award shows and everything else. Um, but no, not anymore. I mean, you know, I feel like when I ended, you know, Miranda was the last act that I actually broke through and that that felt great. And so to see what she's doing after that has been really satisfying. But now I'm good. I guess that's how you want to feel. That's all. Yeah. The last thing I'll say is, and it's not really a question, but it's more of a just from me to you, a very personal thing. It's you know, when I got to this town, I maybe I remember it differently. I didn't feel very welcomed here for a while. For for many years. Uh, you know, I didn't where a cowboy hat. I definitely. I grew up in a rural part of the South, but also had influences that weren't just country and was very open about it on a platform that that wasn't really appreciated, especially at the time. Now cultures changed. I think I've been a big part of trying to move it forward a little bit um while also appreciating the history of it and from in my career doing radio, doing television, doing comedy and books and all these things that I've just never knew how to do. I just attack and just punch until something moves, you know, and then you're like, oh that that moves about punch. Let me keep going over the past four or five or six years. You know, it's been Hey, we have this awards show, and I'll be in the conversation to host the show, and I'll hear the people that are like, he can't other radio companies, No, we don't want him. We'll boycott the show if he did. The one person that it comes back to me, who is constantly publicly or privately in my corner, as in, you just have to consider this guy because he has the skill set to do it, and he should at least be looked at, is you. And I don't even know you. And they would come back and say, you know, it's kind of got your back, and I was like, well, I wouldn't even go and say hi to him, like he's too much a big wig. I would never go. And and so my introduction to appreciating you as a person was I didn't have to be me, but you were just sticking up for somebody you didn't know. You had no interest in me, not as a part. We don't know each other. It wasn't like you're fighting for your friend. But but I just always appreciated that because I know that wasn't the popular thing to do. And you're in there with a bunch of radio people and listen, it's changed a little now and I get to turn stuff down now, which is the coolest thing ever, the greatest thing, no doubt about it. And if you know, and there have been offers and situations, and now I get to go I don't think this is right for me. But I didn't always get to do that. But the one person that people would come and go, hey, man, Joe was like saying, we should have they should stop just shutting it down immediately and at least look at it was you, so just eyeball to eyeball, Like I just really appreciated that because I didn't feel like I had any allies in this town. I think the town I went through the same thing you do. When I first got here. The last thing I did was fuel at home. It took quite some time. You know, you're the outsider. You are the outsider, and you're trying to do things that are different. I got this message from Tarling Monkey called me after uh the announcement, and he said, I just he left the voice mail. I still have it here. I kept it. He said, you know, when I met you, I thought you were a goddamn snot nos Yankee kid who couldn't do ship, you know, I mean that kind of stuff, and so he said, and I called him back and I said, I was, I was. I was that guy. But you know, I learned and I went through it and I gained respect and love for what I was doing in the people around. And you did this thing. I mean, to be honest with you. The first time I met you. I don't know if you remember. This was over John Ivy's house. I think it was a holiday. You just got into town and John was I mean, John has been a friend of mine for I did another yeah long, and he's been great to us as a company for a long period time because he was always that guy that would go. I mean. One of the stories I have on John was in New York. He said. He called Butcher and he said, we had where were you in the World's Atorney. He said, if you can get Alan to take the steel out of that song, I'll play it on Kiss FM, Los Angeles Pop stesition. Yeah, And I said, Butcher, I'll make the call, but I gotta tell you Alan Jackson and no steel, I don't think that's happening. Call Alan, and I said, Allen Big Top forty radio station will play this record. The guys a really good friend of ours. But I don't know how you feel about this. Well, what do they want to take? The steal out is like one two three. I like Steve in the story, but John is a guy that if he comes in and says, guy's gonna do something, you know, I'm good. We've been together a long time through the trenches. But quite honestly, I mean what you've done. I mean, you know people are bidding against you and you just go no, I can do this, and you've done that, and you've gone outside of the genre, and you know you'll keep working at your craft and keep improving and winding the goal post for yourself. So congratulations to yourself. Well, not about me. I just wanted to say I appreciated you. Um, you've impacted my confidence in the town and so I appreciate that. But congratulations, man. It's awesome. It's an honor to have you here for an hour. You have affected this format in so many ways that people don't even know, and you probably don't even remember all the ways. It's just it's one after the other. I could do three hours, but I entered my calf because I'm getting older and now I got to go to a physical therapist. It's it's life. It's life now. H Yeah. I don't think I've had this kind of edge of my voice in a long time. I'm sorry about it. Well, Joe, thank you. I'll just end with that, thank you. This has been a real treat and hopefully I'll see you soon. Thanks for