The Naked Pitch

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This is Sound School. The backstory to great audio storytelling. I’m Rob Rosenthal. I make this podcast for PRX and Transom. 

A bunch of years ago, 2011 to be exact, Andrew Norton produced a story called “Buck, Naked.” It’s the story of a nude figure model. 

Clip – Buck - I always hated that moment after P.E. You had to take a shower. I never wanted to take my clothes off as a kid. And as I got older, I guess, I’ve certainly changed my tune. Now you can’t keep the clothes on me. 

Will Coley heard that story back in 2011 and the idea of producing a piece about nudity -- just in sound -- stuck with him.  He kept thinking about it and thinking about it. “There must be a story there, right? Something about public nudity.” 

Will - People who are getting naked in kind of non-sexual spaces and what it means to them and stuff like that. So it's like, you know yoga classes or going to the Korean spa or going to the beach. You know, like what's the attraction and why are they into that?

He also figured stories of public nudity might reveal a larger meaning. Something about freedom. Or the value of overcoming something daunting. 

Will – You know. What it meant to them and why it was an important part of their life. 

Twelve years later, in 2023, he got off the dime and recorded a few pre-interviews. Like he mentioned, he talked to someone who teaches a nude yoga class. And, he talked with a mother and daughter who spend time nude at a Korean spa. Plus he chatted with an actor who performed as part of the original cast of “Oh Calcutta!” back in 1969. The first Broadway show to feature nudity. 

With those pre-interviews, he felt he had enough material to pitch the story. So, he wrote one up. 

Will figures about 1 out of every 3 pitches he writes are accepted. A three-thirty-three batting average.  Will’s had stories air on The BBC. NPR. 99% Invisible. He even produced a documentary for Transom called Southern Flight 242, a tender story about the death of his dad in a plane crash. 

Over the years, he’s learned a lot about pitching. He doesn’t claim he’s an expert. Not by a long shot. But he’s found editors are after these four things in a pitch. 

Will – Why should I care about this story? Why is it important to tell it now? And why are you the person to tell it?

That’s three. The fourth is… 

Will – What’s the surprise? What’s the twist? 

He didn’t have all those things in place but he pitched the story about public nudity anyway. To  Short Cuts – a wonderful podcast from the BBC that, sadly, is no longer in production.

Rob – And at one point in the pitch you sent to Short Cuts you wrote the following: 

Will – Oh no. 

Rob – No. No. It’s all good. “For each of these people, nakedness is both a physical and emotional experience: baring their bodies in front of and with others helps them get out of their heads and embrace the world in a new way. That’s what I want the listener to consider in their own lives; not to become nudists per se, but how to break free of whatever is holding them back.”

Will – Yup. 

Rob – And then at the end of that of that section you toss in a little bit of information about yourself. Do you remember what it was?

Will – Ummm. I can’t remember. You have it there. What did I say?! Oh god I can’t believe you’re reading this back to me!!

Rob – Laughs. 

Will – Groans. I have to say I’m BLUSHING about this whole discussion! I can’t believe this. 

Rob – Why are you blushing. 

Will – You’ll see. 

Rob – So, what you wrote was “As a teenager, I was deathly afraid of taking off my shirt in the summer and avoided swimming or any activity that required revealing my body and possibly facing the judgment of others.”
 
Will – Yeah. 

Rob – “I missed out on so many things because of this fear.”  How come you included a little something about yourself? 

Will - I think part of it is to answer the question, why you? You know, like, why are you the person reporting it? Like, what is your interest in it? So it's part of the pitch question. 

But I think it's also sort of, I feel, like these days, a lot of in audio and the audio world where there's a lot sort of putting yourself out there and telling stories, you know, like that, that you have a unique connection to. So I think it was kind of like… going to the personal exposure, shall I say. 

Rob – Oh no. But, by putting yourself in the pitch, you weren’t suggesting you were going to get naked. You were just pointing out your relationship to public nudity. 

Will – Exactly. 

He submitted his pitch. Short Cuts rejected it. Will remembers it might have been a form letter saying something like “We can’t use the story at this time.”

Rob – Were you deterred? 

Will – Um, a little bit. But it was funny because for some reason I kept thinking “I'm not going to do what I usually do and put it away.” You know, I'm going to like explore this, find somebody who's interested in this. Cause there's, there's something here.

So, Will pitched WNYC. They said no. Too niche. And he hadn’t identified a trend. 

Will – (laughs) Oh, that’s right. They did say that. 

Then Will thought “Oh. Wait. What about The Hell Gate Podcast. A local show about New York City?” 

Will - They did a quirky episode… where they tried gummies from different weed shops around New York and sat around and talked about them. So I was like, you know, they must be interested in this. But… they got back to me and said, we don't have money to pay freelancers right now. 

At this point, Will’s oh-for-three and he thought he could use some advice. He sent the pitch to a friend at Radiolab and said “Whaddya think?” They wrote back saying “In its current form, it's functioning mostly as a topic, rather than a story.”

Will says he understood what his friend was saying but he wondered: don’t stories come in all shapes and sizes? Does there always have to be a narrative that drives a story?

Somewhere along the way, Will pitched to Transom. That was back when they were running a program called “Small, Random, and Meaningful.” They were looking for short, experimental stories that couldn’t find a home in the usual places. He got another “no.” 

Will - The feedback was, well, this is, this is interesting, but you know, everybody you're talking to is already comfortable with being naked with other people. Maybe you could find somebody who's going through this for the first time. 

And I was like, “Yeah, great. But how am I going to find that person?” You know, and I just, it just, I understood it, but I just thought, you know that's just a tall order. How am I gonna find somebody who’s going to their first naked yoga class or going to the Korean spa for the first time? You know? I didn't, I just. I don't know, I just had trouble envisioning who that person would be. 

He put the story on a shelf for several months. Then he pitched Avery Trufelman, the host of Articles of Interest.  I thought it was kind-of ironic to pitch Avery a story about nudity since her podcast is about clothing and fashion and such.  

Will – Well, it was kind-of this funny, cheeky thing. “Well, why do we wear clothes in the first place? Maybe they’d be interested in this.”

The radio gods finally smiled on Will. 

Will - She even said… in the response… This isn't really a story for me right now, but this is what I'm interested in. And if… you want to explore that with me, I'd be down for it, which I was like, okay. (laughs)

This meant Will’s pitch caught Avery’s attention but she wanted to make some changes. That happens a lot. An editor will often see the kernel of a story in a pitch but will want to put a show’s fingerprint on the story – make sure the framing fits the show’s approach to storytelling.

And so Avery and Will started reporting together. 

Will – Along the way, she sent me this thing about, “Oh, there's a naked comedy night in Brooklyn. Do you wanna go?” And I was like “okay.” 

And I have to say, I did not read the fine print because… in my mind, I thought only the comedians are gonna be naked. But then when I got there, Avery's said, “Well, the first two rows get naked too. We're getting naked, right?” And I'm like, “WHAT?” I was kind of shocked. 

Rob – Of course you were. Because you have an aversion to being nude. You put it in the pitch. 

Will - Yeah, yeah, and I kind of was like what and I you know immediately I say “Is there an HR department?” you know, like “What is what is this that your employer asked you to get naked?” I was like I couldn't believe it. 

But you know, then I was kind of like well, you know Avery's such an engaging interesting person. I kind thought well, I guess I'll do that you know and so we sat in the second row and… we did not immediately disrobe like everybody else. We kind of did it in pieces and it was just so funny because she and I were very chatty… when we got there and then slowly as we removed clothing we were just looking straight ahead and not looking at each other kind of thing. So it was it was very funny… 

And when we left and started putting the story together, we started thinking about “Why were we so uncomfortable? What made us so uncomfortable in that environment?” And then it suddenly dawned on me, “Oh, wait, I'm the person who's experiencing this for the first time.” And then I was like, “oh, okay, now I get it.” And I had never thought about the fact that I was gonna be the person who was, you know being in a socially nude place and feeling awkward about it. 

Rob – (Laughs) So did it suddenly dawn on you what the person at Transom had been saying? How that would add value to the story? 

Will - Yeah, it gave, it gave more energy and, um… I don't want to say thrust… but it gave it more like…

Rob – Oh god. (laughs)

Will – But, uh it gave it more, I could understand why it was more interesting… to hear someone going through it for the first time versus someone who's smugly saying “Oh, yeah I get naked all the time. I don't what's the big deal.”… I got it then, you know.

Here’s a taste. The opening to “Nudity” on Articles of Interest. 

Clip – Avery (in tape) - Will. Will. We have to go. Oh my God. That was the most uncomfortable experience I've ever had. I've never been so excited to put my clothes back on. 

Avery (narrator) - This is a story about nudity. 

Avery (in tape) - Okay, wait, wait. So what did we just do? What just happened? Just to recap. 

Will - We just went to a naked comedy show and you tricked me into getting naked! 

Avery - I did not trick you. I did not. 

Avery (narrator) - I maintain that I did trick producer Will Coley into getting make at this Clothing Optional Comedy Show, but I definitely bullied him. 

Will (in tape) - This is the news section?

Avery – Yeah.

Will -  I thought this was optional. 

Avery - But it means we're doing it. 

Will -  I didn't know that this was going to happen when I pitched this idea to you. 

Avery (narrator) -  Will had pitched me this story about why we wear clothes at all. And so I was like, oh, let's go method. Let's see what it's like to do a fairly normal thing just without clothes on. And at this naked comedy event, all the comedians are naked. Nightmare. And all the audience members sitting in the first two rows have the option to be naked. 

Billy - Why do naked comedy? We tried doing it clothed and charging less and y'all didn't show up. 

Avery – That was the organizer, Billy. 

Billy - We charged more and took our clothes off and we have two sold out shows tonight. 

Avery - It's an expensive ticket. 

Avery (narrator) - It's true, people were lining up around the block to pay $45 to go to this thing. 

Avery (in tape) - Okay, okay. 

Avery (narrator) -  And even though I talked a big game to Will, when it was actually time to take off my underwear in this crowded, mostly clothed room, I kept chickening out. 

Avery (in tape) - Okay, okay, okay. I'm so scared. It's like so scary. I'm like, I'm gonna take it off now. 

Avery (narrator) - Dear listener, I did not. 

Will - Are you waiting on me? What were you waiting on? 

Avery - I'm scared. 

Will - Oh, see, I thought you were getting it… 

Avery - No, no, I'm scared, yeah. 

Avery (narrator) - Let me reiterate that no one was forcing me to do this. I was imposing this on myself and on Will. And when we finally summoned the courage to get naked, it was like not a liberating experience. 

Avery (in tape) - When does the show start? 

Will - I know, it feels like forever. Why didn't we bring drinks? 

Avery - I didn't. This is like a bad dream. I'm living in like a circle of hell. 

Comedian -   Love seeing some uh some nudie in the first two rows give it up for them huh? (Applause)

Will (softly) – I feel like my whole body blushing. 

Avery (narrator) - Okay, it's hard to hear that, but Will hit the nail on the head. He said, I feel like my whole body is blushing, which is exactly how I felt. Like, I felt warm all over. 

Avery (in tape) - I feel physically ill. No, no, don't touch me. 

Avery (narrator) - I felt my personal space rapidly expand. Like, did not want my knee to brush against Will's knee. In fact, as soon as we both got naked, we like shimmied away from each other and only stared straight ahead. 

Will -  I know that was really funny because we were like we were sitting there like right next to each other like talking to each and as soon as we took a close up we were just like straight ahead. It was just so uncomfortable. 

Avery (narrator) - So may I just say, this is not my first rodeo. Like I’ve been in naked situations. (fades down and under) 

So, that’s a clip from the opening to the episode. It’s worth noting that a lot of Will’s story idea remained intact. After the cold open, the episode includes interviews with the yoga teacher, the people who go to the Korean Spa, and the Broadway actor. There are also a handful of experts on clothing and nudity in the piece as well. Arguably, while there are key questions such as why do we wear clothes at all and what makes us so frightened to take them off, there’s no driving narrative.

Bravo to Will for sticking to it. 

Theme music.

The whole reason I talked to Will in the first place about pitching the public nudity story was because he’s assembled an incredibly value resource. A list of shows that take pitches. It’s up at Transom right now. 

Will – It’s little bit of a radio karma thing. If you’re helpful and you put this information out in the world, maybe come back someday and help you, you know? 

On the spreadsheet, there’s info about deadlines, rates, links to pitch forms, contact emails. It’s quite thorough.

Will also interviewed reporters about pitching. Ari Daniel, the science reporter. Freelancer Katie Thornton whose stories have aired on 99% Invisible and On the Media.  And he talked to Monica Ortiz-Uribe (oo-REE-bay – oo rhymes with boo) who reports on the U.S. Mexico Border.  Find Will’s article on pitching at Transom dot org. 

You’ve been listening to Sound School, the back story to great audio storytelling. A podcast from PRX and Transom. Thanks to my colleagues Genevieve Sponsler, Jay Allison, and Jennifer Jerrett. 

I’m Rob Rosenthal. Thanks for listening. 

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