280 | When Kids Say "Stop Copying Me", Session Outside? Sandtray Use? Can I Take This Toy Home? Answering Real CCPT Questions

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I am answering a question,

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actually several questions from Heather,

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and I'm not actually sure where Heather lives.

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It was not in the email,

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but she works at a boys home for ages 10 to 12.

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So a little bit of a unique environment to provide play therapy

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and she has a few questions,

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so we'll dive in and we'll process these together.

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So I'll read them and then we'll be able to look at each one.

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I've heard you address several times when a kid tells you to stop talking,

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but recently,

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several have said stop copying me when I am tracking.

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For example,

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the kid ignores me and continues swinging when I say it's time for therapy.

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So I track,

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you're having so much fun that you don't want to stop.

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Is it the same approach as the stop talking?

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All right,

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so I think there's multi layers here,

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so let me unpack them a little bit.

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So when a child tells us to stop talking or stop copying me,

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That's usually resistance in some way,

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shape or form.

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In other words,

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they either have never had someone speak to them that way before,

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so it's new and different and therefore uncomfortable

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and therefore they're trying to avoid it.

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So they just say stop so they don't have to deal with it.

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Or sometimes,

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especially if it's reflecting feelings,

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they

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don't know how to handle someone acknowledging and

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putting a word to how they're feeling.

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And they can't receive it yet.

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In other words,

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their emotional vocabulary is so underdeveloped

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that hearing someone say you're frustrated,

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they don't like the fact that it's been spoken into existence.

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So sometimes they will bristle at it,

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especially if it's a reflecting feelings kind of scenario.

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Third option is

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they tell you to stop because it feels incongruent

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and that's usually an execution

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issue.

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In other words,

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it doesn't seem genuine,

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it doesn't seem congruent.

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Our tone of voice and our facial expression

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are not appropriate for what we're saying,

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and they sense it and they feel it,

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so they tell us to stop

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or

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we are parroting too closely.

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And they actually feel like you're copying them.

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So if we're not paraphrasing and summarizing,

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and we're just saying exactly the same thing back to a child,

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they likely are going to say stop because that doesn't make sense to them.

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So those are the three reasons why a child will typically say,

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stop telling me how I feel,

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stop

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copying me,

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stop saying what I'm saying,

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stop telling me what I'm doing,

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etc.

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OK,

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so then your next scenario,

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the child ignores you and continues swinging when you say it's time for therapy.

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OK,

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I'm gonna pause there and I know this might be a little bit specific,

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but I think that it's relevant.

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None of the kids that come to our center

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know that it's therapy.

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Now,

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they might figure it out,

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they might read The Kid Counselor Center and realize

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that it's counseling of some sort.

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Their parents might say that you're going to therapy,

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but as far as we communicate to them,

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we never acknowledge that it's therapy.

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It's playing

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So Heather,

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I might encourage you to say it's time for us to go play

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rather than it's time for therapy just because it has a very different connotation,

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it has a very different expectation,

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and I think sometimes there's resistance to the nature of therapy

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as a rule,

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but there's very rarely resistance to playing.

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So that was just kind of a related aside.

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OK.

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So then,

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if you say it's time to play and the child ignores you and continues swinging.

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You say you're having so much fun that you don't want to stop.

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OK,

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that's actually several things.

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That's

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a pseudo feeling reflection.

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Now you could actually make it more specific to an emotion,

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so you could say

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you're enjoying swinging or you're happy

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to swing or you're glad that you're swinging.

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That would be an official feeling reflection,

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but

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you're feeling that so much that you're not ready to stop.

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That is a little bit of an enlargement,

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it's a little bit of a tracking,

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it's a little bit of a narrative summary.

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So there's a lot going on there,

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all very appropriate and adherent.

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When you say,

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is that the same approach as the stop talking,

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We want to always validate what's going on for a child

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and then set neutral expectations.

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So I would follow that up with.

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But you know that it's our time to play.

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So you're having so much fun or you're so happy that you're swinging right now

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that you're not ready to stop,

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but you know that it's our time to go play.

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And you repeat that several times and eventually

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the child chooses to come play with you.

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So you would want to just set the neutral expectation,

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we call that a pseudo limit,

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and you would wait for the child to be able to comply with the fact that it's playtime.

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So,

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when a kid says,

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stop copying me,

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we typically respond with,

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oh,

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you're a little bit irritated that I'm telling you what

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you've said to me,

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but that's how I make sure that I understood you.

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Or,

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oh,

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it frustrates you when I say what I think you're feeling,

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but

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that's what I thought you were feeling and I wanted you to know.

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So we will always respond with the why behind the

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use of the skill when a child bucks that.

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But I don't know that we would do that there.

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We would want to more validate and then set the neutral limit.

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OK,

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so then second question,

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since I see children at the home,

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they might ask to do our session outside.

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Initially I would compromise and allow some time at

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the end for us to be outside together,

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but I feel like when I allow them to truly be in charge,

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even if we are outside swinging or looking for snails instead of my office,

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it is more therapeutic than forcing them to stay in my office.

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Is this OK?

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How do you navigate in home therapy?

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All right,

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so

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there's a clinical judgment call here

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because

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in true CCPT form,

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the playtime is for the playroom.

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And there's a lot of reasons there you're able to

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keep the child safe.

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You're able to govern what happens.

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There are no unexpected surprises.

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It's controllable,

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it's sustainable,

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it's replicable.

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There are all kinds of components to why we limit the play session to the playroom.

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First of all,

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the playroom is a very special environment

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unlike any other.

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So

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it's very important that the child gets the experience of being

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in that special environment with the special relationship with you.

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You don't have other dynamics introduced,

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you know,

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if you're outside,

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someone can walk up and talk,

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someone can come up and intervene.

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There,

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there's no way to really truly

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make sure that that is the ideal scenario

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for play therapy.

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However,

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there are certain kids that

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really

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Need or want something else.

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So there have been times when I've gone out and done a nature walk.

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There have been times when I've gone out and

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thrown rocks into the lake behind my office.

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There have been times when we've gone out and

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fed the turtles in the lake behind my office.

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Why?

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Because if the child truly is in charge.

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It allows for them to show you what they need.

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But you have to make a clinical judgment call.

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Is this power and control?

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Is this resistant?

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Is it avoidant?

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Itw what is driving it?

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Because you have to respond accordingly

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based on the why behind the behavior.

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If the child says,

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can we go out and feed the turtles because they absolutely love animals

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and that will fill up their cup to overflowing

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and you know how much that would mean to get

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to go out with someone that they care about,

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meaning you,

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and feed the turtles,

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then

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you would give them the choice.

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You really would love to go out and feed the turtles,

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but you know that our special playtime

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is for the playroom.

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You can choose for us to go out and feed the turtles when we have 5 minutes left,

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or you can choose for us to go out and feed the turtles when we have 3 minutes left.

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Which do you choose?

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Now all of a sudden,

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you validated it,

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you've made sure that the expectation is clear,

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and then you've provided them with a choice.

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So that would be the way that you would handle

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that if you feel that it really is therapeutically beneficial.

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Now,

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if the kid says,

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I want to go outside because they're trying to avoid playing,

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then that's a whole different rationale,

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therefore,

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a whole different response.

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So that's something that you're going to need to assess Heather to to determine

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what's the why behind the child wanting to go outside,

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and then you can respond accordingly.

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OK.

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I love doing sandtray,

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but I've been struggling with how to introduce

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it or approach it since it's so directive,

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as in,

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show me your world using the miniatures.

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How do you integrate this or don't you?

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I am so glad that you brought this up.

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I'm actually going to be doing a

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sand tray with CCPT

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Core Wellness course soon.

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So we're working on that.

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This is a really big

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thing that we need to address in CCPT.

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So in full CCPT fashion

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and in the original intent behind the way you set up a playroom.

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In a CCPT playroom,

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you have a sandbox.

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In other words,

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is large enough

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for the child to

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get in it.

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It is typically on the floor,

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and yes,

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it can be a tray,

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it can be a rectangle.

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But it is not meant to be on a stand

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with miniatures

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in a directive sense such such as young and

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sand tray or whatever.

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So,

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if you're going to have sand in your room.

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It is a toy

271
00:10:07,349 --> 00:10:10,580
or an option just like any other toy or option in the room is.

272
00:10:10,750 --> 00:10:11,650
In other words,

273
00:10:11,989 --> 00:10:14,030
if they choose to do something in the sand,

274
00:10:14,580 --> 00:10:16,159
It is their choice.

275
00:10:16,409 --> 00:10:17,530
There are no prompts.

276
00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:18,849
There are no directives.

277
00:10:18,929 --> 00:10:19,960
There's no agenda.

278
00:10:20,049 --> 00:10:22,380
We don't say use miniatures

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00:10:22,729 --> 00:10:23,280
to

280
00:10:23,820 --> 00:10:25,400
pick out the people in your family.

281
00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:27,450
We don't say what's the name of your world.

282
00:10:27,609 --> 00:10:28,679
We don't say

283
00:10:28,969 --> 00:10:30,669
what would you change about your world,

284
00:10:30,770 --> 00:10:32,359
what would you add to your world?

285
00:10:32,770 --> 00:10:34,719
None of the directive nature

286
00:10:34,969 --> 00:10:36,960
of sand work is worked in.

287
00:10:37,169 --> 00:10:38,130
It is a tray.

288
00:10:38,809 --> 00:10:41,900
You typically do have small figurines in your room for it,

289
00:10:42,070 --> 00:10:46,239
but you also have shovels and pails and containers of water

290
00:10:46,510 --> 00:10:49,659
and all kinds of other things that you would use in the sand as well,

291
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,270
construction vehicles,

292
00:10:51,390 --> 00:10:51,510
you know,

293
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:54,020
like dump trucks and stuff that you can fill up and dump.

294
00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:57,469
So whatever a child chooses to do in the sand,

295
00:10:57,809 --> 00:11:00,080
it's just another option in the playroom

296
00:11:00,409 --> 00:11:01,809
in a child-centered fashion.

297
00:11:02,049 --> 00:11:02,900
In other words,

298
00:11:03,289 --> 00:11:05,440
you're going to respond exactly the same way.

299
00:11:05,489 --> 00:11:06,650
You're going to track behavior,

300
00:11:06,849 --> 00:11:08,049
you're going to reflect content,

301
00:11:08,159 --> 00:11:09,479
you're going to reflect feeling,

302
00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:11,359
you're going to use the pillars.

303
00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:14,200
You treat it as any other play in the room.

304
00:11:14,609 --> 00:11:19,130
So there is never any kind of objective or directive activity.

305
00:11:20,039 --> 00:11:23,770
When a child has access to a sand tray or a sandbox

306
00:11:24,059 --> 00:11:25,340
in a CCPT playroom.

307
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,659
That was actually a really helpful question,

308
00:11:27,669 --> 00:11:27,869
Heather.

309
00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:28,380
Thank you.

310
00:11:28,549 --> 00:11:28,789
All right.

311
00:11:28,869 --> 00:11:29,820
And then last one.

312
00:11:30,070 --> 00:11:31,830
Since I work with state custody kids,

313
00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,229
I've noticed they perceive that someone cares about

314
00:11:34,229 --> 00:11:35,900
them if something is bought for them.

315
00:11:36,229 --> 00:11:37,549
Almost every session I'm asked,

316
00:11:37,669 --> 00:11:39,859
Will you buy me this or can I have this toy?

317
00:11:40,349 --> 00:11:42,830
I track you like that toy and you'd like it to be yours,

318
00:11:42,950 --> 00:11:44,659
but the toys are for staying in the playroom.

319
00:11:45,270 --> 00:11:48,169
But I'm not sure if I should say something more or something else.

320
00:11:48,390 --> 00:11:48,729
Also,

321
00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:49,309
for clarity,

322
00:11:49,409 --> 00:11:51,340
I don't buy the things that kids

323
00:11:51,630 --> 00:11:52,179
ask,

324
00:11:52,469 --> 00:11:55,140
and they do have ways of earning money and buying their own things.

325
00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:56,539
OK,

326
00:11:56,859 --> 00:12:00,340
so that's not unique just to the fact that you have state custody kids,

327
00:12:00,380 --> 00:12:00,669
Heather,

328
00:12:00,739 --> 00:12:02,059
that's actually a lot of children.

329
00:12:02,099 --> 00:12:05,130
A lot of children ask if you will buy something for

330
00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:06,719
them or for the playroom.

331
00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:09,049
Lots of kids will ask to take things home,

332
00:12:09,179 --> 00:12:11,169
lots of kids will try to smuggle things home

333
00:12:11,780 --> 00:12:14,090
or very craftily steal things.

334
00:12:14,380 --> 00:12:19,369
So that's a pretty standard part of the CCPT room and the CCPT process.

335
00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:21,719
But absolutely,

336
00:12:21,770 --> 00:12:23,919
the fact that they are in foster care,

337
00:12:24,210 --> 00:12:26,450
they would receive gifts

338
00:12:26,929 --> 00:12:29,489
in more of a love language kind of fashion.

339
00:12:29,570 --> 00:12:30,289
In other words,

340
00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:32,210
you care about me if you buy me something,

341
00:12:32,260 --> 00:12:33,679
but that's also permanent.

342
00:12:34,169 --> 00:12:37,250
So you have to keep in mind the the thematic root of that.

343
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:38,239
You know,

344
00:12:38,359 --> 00:12:39,780
even when I'm not with you,

345
00:12:40,140 --> 00:12:42,580
you were thinking about me and I'm thinking about you.

346
00:12:42,630 --> 00:12:44,030
There's a permanent element there.

347
00:12:44,799 --> 00:12:46,020
So in those scenarios,

348
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,390
you're going to do exactly the same thing that you

349
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,030
would do with any other scenario.

350
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:52,650
Oh,

351
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,049
you really wish that I would buy that for you.

352
00:12:55,989 --> 00:12:57,440
You're going to validate it.

353
00:12:58,349 --> 00:12:59,130
And you know,

354
00:12:59,210 --> 00:13:00,679
I've had kids say

355
00:13:00,969 --> 00:13:02,599
you need to buy

356
00:13:02,969 --> 00:13:04,130
a Hulk figurine.

357
00:13:05,390 --> 00:13:05,679
Oh,

358
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:09,090
you would really enjoy it if there was a Hulk figurine in here.

359
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:10,520
And then the next week they're like,

360
00:13:10,590 --> 00:13:11,969
did you buy the Hulk figurine?

361
00:13:12,510 --> 00:13:12,710
Oh,

362
00:13:12,789 --> 00:13:15,619
you're disappointed that there isn't a Hulk figurine today.

363
00:13:15,789 --> 00:13:15,909
Yeah,

364
00:13:15,989 --> 00:13:17,059
I asked you to buy it for me.

365
00:13:17,179 --> 00:13:17,309
Oh,

366
00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:20,140
you were really hoping that I was gonna buy that toy for you.

367
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,429
So you're always going to reflect feelings,

368
00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,979
you're always going to reflect content and validate.

369
00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:26,380
Same thing with,

370
00:13:26,510 --> 00:13:27,619
can I have this toy?

371
00:13:27,909 --> 00:13:29,989
You really wish that you could take that with you,

372
00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:32,489
but you know that all the toys are for staying in the playroom,

373
00:13:32,510 --> 00:13:34,510
but you can choose to play with it again next time.

374
00:13:35,409 --> 00:13:36,809
It will be here when you come back.

375
00:13:36,849 --> 00:13:38,210
You'll be able to play with it again.

376
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,890
And those are the kinds of responses that we want to have when that happens.

377
00:13:42,989 --> 00:13:43,840
But regardless,

378
00:13:43,909 --> 00:13:45,059
we don't cave

379
00:13:45,750 --> 00:13:46,380
because

380
00:13:46,669 --> 00:13:48,669
we do not add things to the playroom,

381
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:50,729
toys are selected rather than collected.

382
00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:53,619
We do not give children gifts

383
00:13:53,989 --> 00:13:54,539
because

384
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:55,919
that becomes

385
00:13:56,750 --> 00:13:57,479
conditional

386
00:13:57,909 --> 00:13:59,659
rather than unconditional.

387
00:14:00,190 --> 00:14:03,469
And we also don't allow children to take toys home because

388
00:14:03,469 --> 00:14:05,719
the toys are for staying so that everyone can use them.

389
00:14:06,419 --> 00:14:11,000
So that's just about using the phrases of CCPT

390
00:14:11,359 --> 00:14:12,979
to address those kinds of questions.

391
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:13,840
All right,

392
00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:14,190
Heather,

393
00:14:14,239 --> 00:14:15,440
thank you so much for the questions.

394
00:14:15,479 --> 00:14:17,190
I hope that that was helpful and

395
00:14:17,359 --> 00:14:17,599
you know,

396
00:14:17,719 --> 00:14:19,919
all of us deal with all of these scenarios.

397
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,080
So I think it's helpful for all of us to be able

398
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,619
to kind of process this and make sure that we're adherent,

399
00:14:24,719 --> 00:14:25,669
make sure that we

400
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:27,909
are appropriately prepared

401
00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:29,760
to handle these kinds of scenarios.

402
00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:30,200
So again,

403
00:14:30,289 --> 00:14:30,520
Heather,

404
00:14:30,530 --> 00:14:31,349
thanks for the question.

405
00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:32,770
If you would like to email me,

406
00:14:32,859 --> 00:14:33,909
I would love to hear from you,

407
00:14:33,919 --> 00:14:36,030
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

408
00:14:36,539 --> 00:14:37,359
You can reach out.

409
00:14:37,429 --> 00:14:38,919
I do get every single email.

410
00:14:39,049 --> 00:14:40,840
No one filters them for me,

411
00:14:41,130 --> 00:14:43,520
so I promise you I will directly respond

412
00:14:43,869 --> 00:14:47,760
and I actually got an interview request yesterday

413
00:14:48,090 --> 00:14:51,479
and grad student needing to do an interview for a course,

414
00:14:51,719 --> 00:14:55,400
and she emailed me and I emailed back and she was like,

415
00:14:55,570 --> 00:14:57,849
I can't believe that you're actually responding to

416
00:14:57,849 --> 00:15:00,320
the email and I'm having a little fangirl moment

417
00:15:00,530 --> 00:15:01,400
and I was like.

418
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:02,520
I do,

419
00:15:02,559 --> 00:15:03,429
I promise you,

420
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:04,580
read every single email.

421
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,270
I do respond personally.

422
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,549
And then I did a discovery call,

423
00:15:08,599 --> 00:15:10,590
which is someone interested in a coaching group,

424
00:15:10,919 --> 00:15:11,479
and she said,

425
00:15:11,539 --> 00:15:13,150
I can't believe it's you on the call.

426
00:15:13,359 --> 00:15:14,390
And I'm like,

427
00:15:14,789 --> 00:15:17,400
why are people so surprised that I interact with my people?

428
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,450
You're my favorite people.

429
00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:18,809
Of course,

430
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:19,239
I'm gonna,

431
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:20,270
it's gonna be me.

432
00:15:20,479 --> 00:15:20,950
Anyway,

433
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:21,760
send me an email.

434
00:15:21,799 --> 00:15:22,719
That's the moral of that story.

435
00:15:22,799 --> 00:15:23,909
I'd love to hear from you.

436
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,039
And you know how much I love y'all.

437
00:15:26,119 --> 00:15:26,960
We'll talk again soon.

438
00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:27,320
Bye.

439
00:15:28,500 --> 00:15:31,260
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

440
00:15:31,419 --> 00:15:32,340
Brenna Hicks.

441
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:34,460
For more episodes and resources,

442
00:15:34,619 --> 00:15:39,340
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.