What to Expect from Golf Architecture in 2025

00:00:00
Speaker 1: What will be the big stories in golf architecture in twenty twenty five. I'm talking about that today with Andy Johnson, founder of Friday Golf. We'll discuss some projects, some architects, and some trends that we're keeping an eye on this year. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is Designing Golf. The idea of today's episode is, basically, we'll talk about a couple of ongoing golf course projects that we're interested in and that we think people should know about. Things that haven't opened up yet, might open up this year, might open up in the next couple of years. You know, often people are curious about what's coming up in golf architecture because this stuff isn't super widely reported on always, So we'll offer some insights there. We'll talk about an architect that we think will have a big year, or a couple of architects that we think will will be, you know, significant parts of the story in twenty twenty five, and we'll wrap up by talking about some trends that we expect to be a big deal. So let's start with projects. What's the first one that you're that you're keeping an eye on.

00:01:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this is a high profile one. Uh, it's it's a it's going to be the next giant resort. But Rodeo Dunes is a project that I think it's in a way is like going almost under the radar. I think they probably want it to be someone under the radar. The Kaisers are are pretty keep things under wraps really well. You know, they don't show stuff during construction generally, and you know they then these great golf courses open out of nowhere. I think why I'm so interested in it is that Sand Valley's success. I think that they expected it to be successful. I think what they didn't understand was the power of population centers. Obviously, abandon four hours from Portland really in the middle of nowhere. When you think about where stan Valley is, it feels like the middle of nowhere. But there are basically four big metro areas within driving distance. You have Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Wisconsin, and Minneapolis all within four hours of driving distance. And I think the Kaisers almost underestimated how valuable that is and how popular it would make a resort. And now with Rodeo Dunes, you have even greater proximity, greater proximity than any of those metro areas to a giant city in Denver you have, I think it's roughly about an hour from Denver to Rodeo Dunes, which is like a day trip, you know, like the I used to when I lived in the city of Chicago frequently drive an hour to play golf. This is like something that if you live in a big city, you're kind of used to. And and these Denver residents are going to be able to drive to like what a world class destination and then come back home. It's gonna be really I just think like this resort has is the first dream golf resort where it's got like really close proximity to a major city. And I am fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by what that means for like championship golf. Could we see championship golf? I know they do the US AM, but like, could we see US Open golf at Rodeo Dunes. Could we see US Women's Open? Could we see that? To me is what is so fascinating about Rodeo Dunes. It's just we've never seen a kaiser resort so close to a mass of population center. And I think that is going to make it one of the most busy, popular places to play. And when we think about it, when we look at it twenty years from now, it could be an insane resort that that meets a huge amount of demand.

00:04:18
Speaker 1: You talked about it being about an hour from Denver, it's even closer to the airport because the airport is like out in that direction quite a ways, and so you fly into that airport, which is a you know, a major hub right A lot of flights connect through there. It's pretty easy to get flyport everywhere. It's like this central kind of spoke in a lot of routes across the across the US, and it's right next to it.

00:04:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Chicago and Dallas and Atlanta are the places that like, when you walk through a terminal, you're like, I cannot believe that they're there's a direct flight there. I saw when I was in the last time I was in Denver airport, my terminal, I was flying to small airport. I can't remember where I was flying, but I looked across the way and it was like Greenville, Hawaii, and then there was a couple other small cities. I think West Texas. One flight was going to and I was just like, God, I cannot believe all the places that have direct flights from here. So yeah, that is it's gonna be. I think it's just.

00:05:36
Speaker 1: You know, it's the.

00:05:37
Speaker 2: Core crunch horse design. In the first course, the land looks unbelievable, but from just the sheer ease of getting to I think it is going to be just such a smash commercial success.

00:05:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll it'll be a big deal and it will it will be a new model of dream golf resort, I guess just because of this location factor. A big part of Bandon Dunes is kind of the pilgrimage to get out there. You know, you often fly into the Portland Airport or maybe Eugene or something you'd and those are not always the easiest airports to get to. I know that firsthand since I live in Portland. But then you drive for four or five hours if you're if you're coming into Portland to get to Bandon Dunes and and you're way out in the in the middle of this coastal region that's not very heavily populated. So this will have I think a really different feel and it's going to be interesting to see how the Kaisers transpose this, this dream golf model onto this new kind of location. But of course there are similarities too, because we've got kind of rolling sandy land. We've got Corn Crenshaw doing the first course, and then Coren Crenshaw's associate, Jim Craig doing the second course. Jim Craig designed the short course at Sand Valley as well as a new course is that is under development right now, and so there's going to be a familiar architectural lineage, there's going to be a familiar type of land, but the location is just going to change a lot of things. The way people use this resort is going to be different.

00:07:13
Speaker 2: I just remembered where I was flying. I was flying to Traverse City. Yeah, right, Denver to Traverse City. Now, think about that, Traverse City is like basically as far north in the state, across from a lake from the other one. It conceivably is easier for Traverse City residents to get to this Kaiser resort than it is to get to Sand Valley unless they're flying like private.

00:07:43
Speaker 1: That's nuts, kind of wild, all right. So let's talk about a different project that I'm keeping an eye on. This is another public project that people will you know, will be able to access without having to ask a member. Seven Mile Beach. This is in Tasmania. Speaking of proximity to airports, it's basically right next to the Hobart International Airport, so if you fly into Tasmania, you're going to like kind of fly over this course. Seven Mile Beach. The first course is designed by Mike Clayton and Mike Devrees. The developer Matt Goggin sent me an email a few days ago to give me an update on the on the opening plans for this course, because that there's been some uncertainty as to exactly when it is opening. It's a dynamic links course on very sandy seaside land and so the growing isn't exactly the most predictable thing in the world. But he tells me that they're planning on slowly rolling out some preview play for friends and families starting around March, and then increasing the numbers as the course progresses. It will be a limited number through the you know, through the Australian tes Tasmanian Spring, and then they'll start to open it up. That's the latest update on the first course at seven Mile Beach. Of course, there are already plans underway for the second course at seven Mile Beach seven Mile Beach North, designed by the firm King Colin's Dormer. But I've seen a lot of pictures of this course under construction. Matt Goggan has been sharing some, Mike Clayton has been sharing some. They're both active on social media, and it really does look pretty fantastic. The land looks unbelievable and it looks to me like Clayton and Devrees have taken a very naturalistic approach to this land, building something that truly looks like a Lynx course, and so I'm pretty excited about that. And it's going to be a fairly accessible resort. I think people in Tasmania are going to be able to use this course on a regular basis and travelers will will find it pretty accessible as well. So very excited about seven Mile Beach. Some delays in the opening, but they're they're doing the right way, They're making sure the course is ready and so very much looking forward to to getting there at some point. What's a second project that you're tracking right now?

00:10:12
Speaker 2: This is the other end of the spectrum from my Rodeo Dunes Pick. But I've got two restoration efforts that are kind of starting to begin, Saint George's Hill and Sunningdale. Brian Schneider is the consulting architect at Saint George's Hill in England and Gil Hants is the consulting architect at Sunningdale in England. Very high profile clubs in the UK have pretty much been worked on by one architecture firm for the last twenty or so years. Obviously, there have been a few intermixed. The Addington was done by Clayton Devrees and Frank Pott. You have, you know, other examples like Woodhall Spa. Yeah, Woodhall Spa by by Tom Doak. But just in general, these are really really high profile projects that that did not go to the firm of Tom mackenzie and Martin Ebert. So I think it's notable maybe the beginning of a trend of of UK golf going away from those architects and and towards a different style of work where maybe it's not as championship focused, maybe it's not around moving as much earth as possible, and uh, you know, and having that kind of be you know, the part of the let's call it, uh part of the thing that drives decisions from an architecture firm. Uh. So it is a that those two projects to me are pretty interesting in the sense of, really, you know, where where's the golf in UK going the next twenty years. You know, there's obviously always going to be a very very minimal amount of new projects with with just coastal laws and environmental restrictions, so a lot of the news out of there is always going to be redesigned in restorations and renovations. So those are two projects that I'm really interested in, how they are received, how they progress, and and really what the long term impacts they have are on UK golf. What's your h what's your other course that you're looking at?

00:12:39
Speaker 1: The other course that I'm looking at is the Ranch. This is one of the many courses being developed in South Florida right now, specifically in Martin County, specifically along the Saint Lucy Canal. There are a few projects there. Appage is one that is a big golf complex with many different designers involved. Sand Glass is there a Tom Doak project that's that's really interesting as well. But the Ranch is going to be a private thirty six hole complex designed by Whitman, Axland and Cutton. That is, Rod Whitman, Dave Axland, and Keith Cutten. This is a very experienced trio of architects, especially Rod Whitman and Dave Exland, who trained and worked with the kind of Pete Dye Core and Crenshaw Design Tree and are extremely capable architects. Keith Cutton is their kind of young younger partner who has also come up in a somewhat similar system. This development. The ranch is being spearheaded by Ken Baxt who is a co founder of Friar's Head, so it has some serious firepower behind it. But I'm just really interested to see some original work from Whitman, Axland and Cutton. They've had a couple of projects on their locket for a while that have just been delayed a bit in development. One Oregon that's that's kind of mired in lawsuits related to land use, and then Cabot Pacific and the kind of Wilds of British Columbia, which it doesn't seem like that project is is moving forward quickly. Let's let's say that there's I'm not exactly sure what's what's going on there. But this is to me a very exciting project.

00:14:31
Speaker 2: That project when it got announced, I mean, it was supposed to be golfing by twenty three or twenty four.

00:14:39
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty three was the initial date that I heard on it.

00:14:42
Speaker 2: And I don't think they don't think that. Yeah, I don't think anything started. I mean, this is one of the things with golf projects, which is this happens. Yeah, It's why there's still some risk to them, right.

00:14:55
Speaker 1: It's why they're hard to report on. Frankly, I mean I was, I was kind of poking around about the ranch a little bit this morning, making sure that this you know that this project because the timelines you initially here don't tend to turn out to be the case most of the time. But in any case, I really want to see some some work from Whitman. Excellent and cutting. They did the new short course shorties at Bandon dune'es, but I would really like to see a regulation golf course from them. And I hear that this land at the Ranch, although the general terrain in that area of Martin County of Florida is not the most attractive for golf. I hear that the land is pretty good for this course, and so I'd really like to see what this firm does when it when it gets a big opportunity like this, because some of the constituents of the firm, some of the principles of the firm, are very very talented in their own right and have done great solo work. And so that's that's to me, a very exciting firm. Why don't we move forward to the architects that we think are going to have a big year. Maybe some architects that we've already mentioned, maybe not, But who are you looking at among golf course designers that you think will will have a big twenty twenty five?

00:16:11
Speaker 2: I think the name I had a couple of names that popped into my head, but the one I settled on was Brian Schneider. I think that we are if you look at like how architects kind of break out, it is they build something and then it becomes widely acclaimed, and then a couple of years after that they start to get other high profile projects. With Brian Schneider or two years after old Barnwell, at this point, I think the big time projects are going to start to flow, and he's going to start to compete with Tom Doak and Gil Hants and Corn Crunshaw four jobs, really high profile jobs because he's built a golf course that is widely recognized as a great, great golf course. He obviously did that with Blake Conant. I think he Blake is going to you know, kind of private enter, a new realm for him. He's a little bit younger and I you know, and a little bit less experience than Brian Schneider. But I think Brian Schneider is going to get some really big jobs in the near future, especially if the golf boom continues. So I'm I'm kind of keeping keeping my eyes out for news that pertaining to projects from him. What about you, well.

00:17:34
Speaker 1: O CM was the firm that I wanted to talk about because I think they're just getting a lot of jobs. They're showing an ability to go out and get work and to execute on that work. This is the Australian firm Oglevi, Cocking and Mead. Jeff Oglevie, Mike Cocking and Ashley Mead are the partners at this firm. That's o CM and Madna. Number three was their kind of big, high profile UH redesign project last year but I think that the reception of that is going to start to come into focus this year, as.

00:18:08
Speaker 2: I mean they didn't have they didn't have guest play outside of like they did a couple like days for for like so that the golf industry people could see it, but like they didn't have guests play and they had restrictions on non member play.

00:18:24
Speaker 1: You know.

00:18:25
Speaker 2: So yeah, like this is really in a way they're opening year.

00:18:29
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely more people are going to play the course. And Medna is one of those clubs in the Chicago area where a lot of people play, right it has had the common members. Yeah, yeah, it's it's relatively I mean, this word is tricky when applying it to any private club, but it is among the private clubs in the Chicago area, a relatively accessible one because they have so many members and so much of a golf offering.

00:18:54
Speaker 2: So we'll see how people do a lot of a lot of outings. I don't think they're doing a lot of outings on course three, but they you know, like it is just like it's a place that if you're in Chicago and you're really into golf, you probably are going to get to at some point in your life.

00:19:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, and then you know they've they've got a couple of projects in Texas in fact coming along original designs Tepatonka in Minnesota which you mentioned, and then of course in their native Australia, especially in the Melbourne area, they have really emerged as one of the dominant firms. It's basically that firm, and then Clayton, Defrees and Pont who have a lot of the really important renovation and restoration work that's going on. They're working on a couple of very interesting projects right now in the Melbourne area, a renovation of Huntingdale, which is a true sand belt golf course, and then a redesign of Long Island, which is right next to Peninsula Kingswood, which was the redesign that really kind of showed, I think for the first time what OCM is capable of. So those are some projects to keep an eye on in Australia. But yeah, it just seems to me that OCM is really well positioned. Jeff Ogilvie obviously a very well known guy and has become a kind of public intellectual in golf, and in somewhat the same way that I guess Ben Crenshaw did at one time, and that Tom Doak continues to do. He's extremely articulate and smart about all matters golf. And the fact that he is a major winner, a well known person, somebody who's been on TV. I think that's going to be a major advantage in them getting jobs. And then the fact that he has such a high golf IQ and has partnered with two extremely capable architects in Mike Cocking and Ashley Meade gives that firm a lot of juice. We'll also see to talk about one other firm through one other name out there. We'll also see what kind of year it is for Kyle Franz. Really last year was Kyle's big year because he had a lot of course openings, those those two courses at Cabot Citrus Farms which are officially opening this month, but also his original designs at Luling in Texas and at Broomsedge and in South Carolina. But those courses, you know, again, it's that what you talked about with Medina, where it's kind of limited preview play. Maybe maybe some media people get out there, maybe a few members get out there, but it's really this year when we're going to see how people respond to it. If it is, if it is an ecstatic response like we saw from Old Barnwell, then obviously, well we'll see more work going going Kyle Frans' way, So I'll definitely be keeping an eye on that.

00:21:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it should be. It should be fascinating to see that as well. I think at Kyle Kyle's an interesting one. He's also I think he's doing pretty extensive renovation work right now at at Eastward ho Bumkers, and there's there's a lot going on there right now, so there's that also will be another I mean, I just I marvel at the sheer volume of projects. There's a lot going on, there's a lot of stuff to talk about, a lot of stuff to pick from on this, and you know, there's there are a lot of people that are getting chances that other generations of architects weren't afforded. And you know, there were a lot of talented people that had that really like left the field of golf architecture because these opportunities didn't exist ten, fifteen, twenty years ago. So it's nice to be in a spot where we're going to see younger in a realm of the word younger, but you know, new architects get a chance.

00:22:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about it all the time. I started working for you in twenty nineteen, and golf course design was not a beat. It wasn't a reporting beat. It didn't there was no there's no reason to be really reporting on new development and in golf course architecture because it was so slow, especially in the United States, and things have changed really quickly. Now. That gets us to our our final topic today. Andy, I'm wondering about any trends right now that you are that you think will be important in twenty twenty five.

00:23:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess this is just just my personal I'd love to see a trend of of the middle tier club saying no to extensively large golf course renovation work unless you're talking about a complete redesign, if you're middle of the road golf course in your in your market, if you're you know.

00:23:45
Speaker 1: If you're like if you're like the second or third best Donald Ross course in your in your city, or something like that, I don't.

00:23:53
Speaker 2: I don't feel like you should be doing and you know this is I just don't. I would be saying no to the full shutdown to twenty million dollar project. Because at the end of the day, you're just gonna come out with a golf course that is really the same golf course. There's you know, yeah, sure you might improve here and improve around the edges, but you're gonna lose your golf course for a year, and you're really nobody's gonna think about you much differently the next year. I I just think that right now, it's like there's a look around, and well, they did it. And I think that that in general, clubs need to prioritize doing what's best for them, and I think that that is just generally a good guiding light. It's one of the things that I think the best renovations in project work, and the clubs that come out of things in the best light are generally the ones that make decisions not based on what others are doing, but based on what's best for them. And I can't envision a world where some of these twenty million dollar projects that are that are getting passed and that are getting planned out are good decisions by the club. And obviously I'm not you know, I don't have all the numbers and understand everything all the dynamics, but on the face of taking a golf course that we'll just say is a doke six and we're going to do work and the ceiling might be it might be a six and a half after twenty million dollars. That's just not a good idea in my opinion, and I see a lot of people doing it, and you lose your club for a year. It's a pain in the ass as a membership. And there are plenty of roadmaps of doing something piecemeal and doing something slowly over a set of years and having as good, if not better results.

00:26:00
Speaker 1: What do you have, Well, I suppose it's sort of related. Rising costs of construction is the big thing that I am keeping a close eye on now. I don't really think that we're in a golf development bubble. There is some concern about that because people are looking at all these projects in the southeast southeastern United States and saying, how can this area possibly support this many new private destination golf clubs. I think the answer is that there is a clientele there for that those places often develop memberships before they even develop the courses, and so I think that a lot of those those will survive and they have a kind of solid financial model where they're not reliant on day to day green fees. So I don't precisely think that we're in a bubble, but I am concerned about how much it costs right now to build a golf course and to maintain a golf course. The labor costs, the land costs, the materials costs, the cost of hiring a good drainage and irrigation contractor, all of that stuff is getting more and more expensive. And we're seeing right now twenty million dollar renovations that I believe a decade ago would have been eight to nine million dollar renovations, maybe maybe even less. It's pretty stunning how steeply costs have gone up now. It's also an indication of how bullish a lot of developers are on the potential for new golf development that nonetheless we see a lot of projects plowing forward, and ultimately the ones that have been completed seem to have been successful so far. But I am concerned about two effects of those rising costs. One is that obviously public golf is going to get left behind by this. If it costs this much to renovate a golf course, we're just going to see fewer and fewer public golf courses, especially affordable public golf courses, doing projects. We're still seeing those projects, but they're obviously just not coming at the rate that you would hope given the overall momentum in the golf course development industry. So that's one thing I'm concerned about the effects on public golf and the ability of ordinary mom and pop courses to pull off renovations when costs are what they are. The other effect of it is going to be some geographic imbalance, because right now we're just seeing an awful lot of activity in Texas, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida. Right that's basically where the surge is right now, and that's great for those areas, but there's a reason that people are developing golf courses in those areas. The land is a little bit cheaper and regulations for development are a little bit looser, and so the costs are manageable. Elsewhere, the costs of golf course development are just a lot harder for developers to meet. And so I think we're going to see, if things continue as they are, some unevenness in where people are really supplied with golf.

00:29:36
Speaker 2: You forgot about Montana. Montana's a. Montana got a lot of projects for mind.

00:29:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, crazy Mountain Ranch by Coren Crenshaw. We've got Twin Bridges by Kay Golby. Really excited about those projects, honestly.

00:29:50
Speaker 2: But yeah, I want to call out Montana as a development hotbed because I felt like it was that it was not appropriately uh included this. Yeah, I mean anything I cost is I think that's the dominant one I've talked. I feel like I've talked about it a lot in recent weeks, and it's, uh, it's going to be kind of a a prohibitive factor in in some regard. And I agree with what you're what you're saying about redesigns for for municipal public affordable golf is going to be hard, You're I think what you're going to see is high end, high end public and and and private golf are the areas where you're going to see continued development. But it's hard to imagine a world where you know, a fifty dollars meuni ever ever gets built because it's just hard to build that. So that's why what one project I called out in a in a newsletter for Frida Egg was Warmouth stands and Vidalia Georgia. That's one that I'm super excited about it. I talked to Mike Young about it. It's pretty funny. He was like he was like the the the mayor of Vidalia because that's the private airport that people fly in to for a hoopie.

00:31:16
Speaker 1: For the z Yeah. And Mike Young, by the way, is the is the architect behind this new municipal course in this little town.

00:31:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like looking around at all the celebrities and private jets that were coming in, and they they realized that this this land, the sand that they just their town sits on. Was like they were like, well, why is Peyton Manning coming in? Why why are these people coming to Vadalia? And they realized that sand was this unbelievable golf resource. And it took him a couple of years, but they realized like, oh my god, we're sitting on something that's super valuable and they invest in it. But like you know, most of these sandy plots where there's land available are really remote and that you know, constricts the ability to to have golf like public golf, like you know, it's hard. Yeah, it's worked for like Sweeten's Cove it's worked for you know, I think AKN Golf Club has a lot of fanfare. It's worked for remote, but it's hard if nobody goes. Like Buffalo Dunes is a great example of this out in remote, like Garden City, Kansas. It is really far away. And I remember I was at Prairie Dunes and I was I had like this was during COVID. I had like kind of a an open schedule where I was trying to plot my way back home. I drove, I had driven to Prairie Dunes. I'm at Prairie Dunes. I'm sitting there one night trying to figure out how I'm going to get home where I'm stopping on my way home. And I looked at Buffalo Dudes, I'm still four hours away and it's four I was like, I ended up going to wild Horse on that trip because I Wildhorse, Well it was four hours, but it was it got me two hours closer to Chicago. Like the fact that I wasn't driving, Like I looked at Buffalo Dunes, It's like four hours and I'm four hours further from Chicago. Yeah, Like it was like, you know, it's like some of these courses they're just so far away that have this this potential. And I think what's interesting about Warmouth is I mean there are employees of a hoopie match club that live in Savannah and drive every day. So this is this is not this one's not out of reach for like, there is a you know, you could go to Savannah and if you go down there with your partner that doesn't play golf, you could easily set them up with something to do in the morning and you could get out there.

00:33:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'd like to get two shout outs to municipal golf projects or public golf projects that are fairly near population centers and are doing work. First of all, the entire Nashville municipal golf system has basically hired Bruce Hepner, who used to work for Tom.

00:34:16
Speaker 2: Do Pody did on the Frida Egg with him about this stuff.

00:34:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, this that was maybe about a year ago at this point. And and and Bruce has has essentially renovated two of those courses in that municipal system that was the product of a of a private public partnership in the city. They invested in the golf courses and they got work done. So that's really impressive. Now, partly as a result of my podcast with Bruce Hepner, he is also now working at Miami Lakes, which is a public course, you know, just in the kind of northern suburbs of Miami. Uh. And he was hired for that project because the owner, one of the owners of that, one of the operators of that golf course, listened to the podcast, was like, hey, this guy might know what to do with our golf course. And so they're doing a big renovation there as well. Those are near population centers and they're doing work. But it's not easy. You know. Buffalo Dunes is a great project. They've wrapped up pretty much all of their greens renovations. This was a comment in Club TFE that we got from the assistant superintendent. He said, all the greens renovations are completed and now they just have to add some new t boxes, bunkers and a new driving range next year and it will be complete. I think that course is going to be stunning, you know, really really cool looking like sort of wild horsey prairie dunez. But yeah, it's pretty far away from major population centers. I'm going to get out there. I hope people make it a point to get out there. But I think one reason that project got done is because again, keeping costs under control in that kind of location is just a little bit easier. So that's a major theme of golf course development that we'll be reckoning with for certainly the entirety of twenty twenty five and beyond. All Right, thank you very much Andy for coming on this brand new Friday Golf podcast. Appreciate it, and I'll have you back on on occasion just to talk a little bit of golf course design. How does that sound?

00:36:19
Speaker 2: Sounds great? Can't wait to see how where this podcast goes.

00:36:36
Speaker 1: All right, So that's episode one of Designing Golf in the Books. We got it started, we launched the podcast. We're going forward. If you like what you hear and you're say watching this on YouTube, then go to the Designing Golf feed and subscribe. We've got a couple of more episodes there. So if you're listening to this in the podcast feed, you've got a couple more episodes that you can listen to if you'd like. One is a kind of golf course architecture one O one episode with PJ. Clark, and then the other is an interview with none other than Jeff OGLVII that I did while I was in Australia in December. So those two episodes are going to be available to you in the Designing Golf podcast feed. Now, if you are listening to this as a podcast, just note that Friday Golf has a YouTube page where we're posting all of our podcasts, from the Friday Golf Podcast to the Shotgun Start to this podcast. So if you like that that visual medium for your podcast and maybe at some point in Designing Golf, well we'll do a few different things with the visuals of what we're talking about. That that's something I'm hoping for, then make sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and see what we're offering there. One final note, Club TFE is Friday Golf's membership. If you're listening to this podcast because you have a passion for golf, golf course designer, or an interest or just kind of starting on that process of learning about it, then I think CLUBTFE will offer a lot for you. We publish exclusive content there every week, from golf course profiles to golf course architecture news. I think they're things that you don't really see anywhere else. We can do them because of the support from CLUBTFE members, So go to the Frida egg dot com slash membership to see what clubtf is offering. There's all sorts of other things that come with the membership as well, but I thought i'd focus on the content there since since that's what we're doing right now. We're doing content all right. Thank you for listening to Designing Golf, and I'll see you again in the next episode.