Golden Hours: Reframing the Post-Work / Pre-Bedtime Time Slot!

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hi.

00:00:03
Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

00:00:08
Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hartunger.

00:00:10
Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

00:00:17
Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds.

00:00:19
Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life.

00:00:32
Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. In this episode, we're going to be talking about what we're calling your golden hours. So these are the hours that are after work and before bed on weekday evenings, thinking Monday through Thursday. You know, if you're done with work five six somewhere there, go to bed ten eleven. You know, there's a fair amount of time in there, and I know it's hard for people to use well, but there are some ways that we can turn it from time that we might be just sort of wishing away counting the hours til kid bedtime, versus you know, actually enjoying life because it's all time is valuable. So Sarah, we were talking about that evenings looked a little bit different in both of our households now than they did a couple of years ago, like when we first started Best of Both Worlds. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how they used to look and how they look currently.

00:01:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, first, I just want to say, you made up kind of the concept of Well, you didn't make up golden hours, but I think you thought of this concept for this period of time, and I just love that, Like, I think it is an incredible reframe for a time period that can be difficult for some. Now I do wonder how my like toddler having self would have taken it, because things were a little bit dicey at certain points at this time, like depending on what the sleep situation was. But there are still like little moments that one can embrace and little things you can do, and I think having the bar low but still not zero is part of that. So I just think you'd deserve a lot of credit for this concept, because I really never thought of these hours this way, and so I think this episode is going to be helpful for those who maybe struggle with that post work, pre bed period of time, which is not one that comes easy to me. So you asked a question of how things have changed. Honestly, it is a lot different. I remember when the kids were little, it was kind of like dinner and then this long protracted wine down until bed, which often was spent to some extent kind of like waiting for it to be done. And like you know, there's probably some element of that that's going to be unavoidable, depending on where you are, what kind of support you have, et cetera. But I wish I kind of could go back and think about golden hours in that time period. Now things are much busier, Like someone has an activity pretty much every weeknight, ending anywhere from seven seven fifteen to the earliest and eight o'clock at the latest, which isn't terrible. Actually we had an even later slot of soccer last year, different team, But that means that there's like a whole second round of active stuff going on, like usually after I come home from work or after I finish working from home. And it does change the landscape and the energy required. I don't know if it changes it for better or for worse or just neutral, but it is a different energy.

00:03:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, we definitely have more evening activities than we did when the kids were little. I was thinking about when they were little, there was trying to like fill that time. My kids have never gone to bed early, and so it was like I remember having, you know, a.

00:03:28
Speaker 3: Four year old to two year old and a baby.

00:03:30
Speaker 4: I'm just trying to like get them into bed and then whatever else had to happen in that time, if it was working afterwards or something like that. And you know, sometimes I'd even do crazy things like take them out to this diner just because I was like, I want to get out of the house. I don't want to sit here with everyone. And now we're kind of out of the house. Somebody's out of the house every evening as it is just because of when activities are, Because if kids are in school from nine to three at least or some other time with that, then a lot of the activities are going to happen afterwards. Alex in particular, has a number of things that are in the evening. I mean, we purposely signed him up for a swim that's like six forty five to seven thirty versus trying to get him to it at four thirty to five fifteen, or because it's just harder with everyone so trying to spread things out. But even with that, like this is time that is challenging for a lot of people. And I know that many of our listeners who are women wind up doing more sort of the household and child related work after they've come home from a full day of work or logged out of their home office or whatever, which is why you know, there was the terminology of calling it the second shift, right that was Arley Hawkschild determining that, and there is some element of that, and you know, we could have a whole episode about whether this is fair. You know that many women wind up shouldering more of the work at home, even if they are doing pretty much equivalent work out in the world too, But that is a topic for a different time. This episode is be that as it may, whatever situation you are in, if you are there in the evening and wanting to enjoy your life, whether you have little kids or not, whether you you know, have nothing in the evening and so wind up feeling sometimes like you're wasting it because you're just doing sort of passive leisure, or if you're running around to activities, or if you're trying to get toddlers into bed. Regardless, we all have some agency over our lives and can choose to make this time better.

00:05:48
Speaker 3: Because the problem is it's a lot of time.

00:05:50
Speaker 4: I mean, if you are done with work at five thirty and you are in bed at ten thirty, that is five hours in the evening. And if you're adding up Monday to third Thursday, that's twenty hours. That's like the equivalent of a part time job. And you know, most people would not take a part time job that they're like, well, I'm always just counting toward the end of it, or I'm you know, I don't think about what I'm going to.

00:06:11
Speaker 3: Do with it. I just because it's just chaos.

00:06:13
Speaker 4: So I don't think about it like you would probably put some thought into it. And so, you know, we don't want to write off this time either.

00:06:20
Speaker 3: Ten thirty.

00:06:21
Speaker 1: It's a little hilarious to me because I haven't seen ten thirty in a while. Well, sometimes I see it, like on the rare Saturday nights, usually because I've gotten to take an ap during the day and I'm still able to function then. But well, you said, be that as it may about the housework, but it doesn't have to be that right, Like, so you can make a choice to either do less housework and just let the house be as it may, or outsource some of that housework. And I will be honest, I've chosen the latter. And so despite the fact that I may be going to kids activities and doing other things, I'm very rarely going to be doing really any house maintenance work at that time. I recognize the privilege in that I always have to say that caveat, I know, but it's been a choice to perhaps just prioritize that for myself, in part because I do spend a lot of evenings alone, and so it would be like me dealing with the kids and doing the housework and like after a full day of work and like that, that isn't the life I prefer to have.

00:07:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I would say that I realized at some point, you know, especially when once I had four kids. I was about, you know, two years into the four kids thing. I don't want to spend the evenings by myself dealing with all these kids. I mean it just if my husband is not here, then having another adult is replacing him. It's not that I am getting out of anything here, it's that this helps me be able to get kids to activities and calmly get children into bed without relying on the TV to take care of a two year old because you know, somebody else needs something else, And so we did wind up adding in more evening childcare during that period of time. So throwing that out there as an idea as well, because yeah, like you don't want to not like your life, and if there are obvious things that can be changed, that might be something worth looking into.

00:08:13
Speaker 3: So the golden hours, yeah, you know, Sarah said, this is my concet.

00:08:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, I came up with the idea of rebranding it as the golden hours. In photography, golden hour is the hour or two before sunset when the light is really good, like when everything looks rosy and beautiful and so. Or you could also use the image of like your golden years. And there might be something to this too that when people retire or I guess in this case, just get done with work for the day, ideally you have many years of that you're still healthy and active, that you can enjoy leisure and family time. And it's the same thing with the time of day. You know that you're enjoying leisure and family time after your time of work, and hopefully yet you have the energy and capacity to enjoy it as opposed to having it be just waiting for bedtime whatever that metaphorically is going to be in our golden years idea. So yeah, I mean, Sarah, you had some question of whether this was ever attainable.

00:09:12
Speaker 1: Well, I like thought through the idea of like, okay, in my current phase of life, or like tomorrow, if I could like design my fantasy golden hour, it would be like I get home from work, or I finish my day of work, I change into lounge where of course it's like beautiful, flowy, organic material instagram worthy, even though I'm not using Instagram. I eat a lovely and quiet, relaxing dinner with Josh at six o'clock because magically he's home at six o'clock, which ha ha ha, and then read by candle light into an elaborate skincare ritual before I settle into bed at eight to read some more or watch a show. Then I was like, oh, right.

00:09:48
Speaker 3: Kids, Oh are they here too? I think they're here.

00:09:52
Speaker 1: Maybe they were at dinner. They were super polite, and then they calmly went into their rooms to do their homework without any prodding and then put themselves to bed.

00:09:59
Speaker 3: With themselves to bed. That's that's really good when they turn out their own lights.

00:10:03
Speaker 1: So I guess like there is a little bit of tension between like the energy of like the ideal relaxing post work time and like the reality when you have soccer pickup and you have an overtired five year old who's disgusting from gymnastics but doesn't want to take a bath. But at the same time, there's a middle ground.

00:10:20
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, and ours has gotten somewhat better for sure.

00:10:24
Speaker 4: I mean since the all toddler days of my semi golden hours, whatever they were at that point, maybe Bronze, some other lesser metal, but I mean partly so my ideal, I mean, I would I would get to work until I was done, that somebody wouldn't be interrupting me before that point.

00:10:42
Speaker 3: But you know, we'd have family dinner.

00:10:45
Speaker 4: I like to have some time to sit around and chat with the kids, So that's always nice when we can do that, and the older three will sit around the dinner table a little bit longer sometimes, and so I really do appreciate when that happens. I would have some time to do my puzzle. Henry would have a swift bedtime, which happens when he is not napping during the day, but unfortunately sometimes he you know, falls asleep in the car seat while he's going around to different things, and then the evening stretches on and on. But the big kids are all supposed to be in the rooms in quiet at nine. They can read at this point, so I would be doing more puzzle or reading, or watching an Eagles game or something not Eagles. That's during the day Phillies, I don't know, more likely puzzle or reading, and then I turn out lights at ten. I quickly get myself ready for bed, and then I can read from like ten fifteen to eleven, which is my strict lights out in order to.

00:11:46
Speaker 3: Be up at six point thirty to do it again. So I guess that's the way I do it. But we're pretty close some nights.

00:11:53
Speaker 4: It's just that there's some driving around in there, so the leisurely family dinner doesn't always happen. And there's also so the reality that kids don't necessarily go to bed at the time you want them to be in bed.

00:12:05
Speaker 3: With a three year old giving up as.

00:12:06
Speaker 4: Net, but we're going to take a quick break and then after that we're going to talk about some ways to make your golden hours better.

00:12:25
Speaker 3: Well, we are back, and we are talking about your golden hours.

00:12:29
Speaker 4: So these are weekday hours after work, before bed, trying to rebrand them from being a second shift or just time that tends to be wasted when people are just doing sort of passive kinds of leisure, and how we can make them into what might be some of our favorite hours of the week. So, Sarah, the first strategy, which is always the first strategy, is to commit to devoting some thought to this time, maybe as you're planning your week, right.

00:12:59
Speaker 1: I love that. Of course, for me, this wouldn't necessarily mean packing that time period with activities, because as we'll talk later, it's just like not the type of energy I have most nights. But I do think the thinking through can be incredibly valuable. And I have kind of focused attention on this time period in the past, mostly out of like total frustration for how poorly bedtime was going, but with some attention and really like thinking about like what has to happen to make things more calm and pleasant for everyone, That kind of has been my version of planning, and I think I could probably go even further as the kids have gotten a little bigger, and as we've figured out our school rhythms this year, to like add some little dashes like of fun stuff on top of that, even like really low key stuff, as we'll talk. I think the bar can be low if you're a tired evening person, but low is still very different than just like writing it off.

00:13:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we don't have to write it off, even if the bar is low. I will give a little shout out to the Tranquility by Tuesday rules if anyone has read Tranquility by Tuesday. There are a couple rules in there that might help with thinking through your golden hours, and one of them is the idea of planning one big adventure and one little adventure into your week. And the golden hours can be really good for a little adventure. So you might challenge yourself to think about, Okay, Monday through Thursday, could I do something one of the nights that might be a little adventure, And that might be something with the kids. So for instance, if it's still light out, you might be able to go to a different playground than you've gone to in the past. Maybe you live in a community where one of your branch libraries has some evening hours and that might be something that you could do a trip there that might be a sort of unexpected adventure. It doesn't have to happen on a Saturday, could happen on a Tuesday evening. If you have a place that's open till eight or nine at night, which some are, maybe on a special occasion, you know, somebody's celebrating something, you could go out for desserve in the middle of the week.

00:15:01
Speaker 3: Maybe this is more of a summer thing, but you know, I don't know.

00:15:04
Speaker 4: You could all go out for hot brownies or something if it's freezing or cold or rainy or whatever, and it could also be something for you. So the other night I was taking Alex to his karate class, and it's about five minutes away from this major shopping complex that happens to have a Barnes and Noble. So I went into the Barnes and Noble and looked around in some of the sections that I like to look in, so browsing a little books, and then got myself a drink at the cafe, and you know, did approximately ten minutes of work before I had to get back in the car to go get go get him. But it was still a little adventure, you know, rather than just scrolling around on my phone, half watching him and you know, half being on edge because he's not always one hundred percent well behaved. Sometimes he is, mostly he is, but and the teachers are entirely capable of dealing with it, and so I'm just a problem if I'm there and there's an issue anyway, So I go somewhere else and enjoyed.

00:16:00
Speaker 3: The cafe and the bookstore. That was my little adventure for the week. So you know that was great.

00:16:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, here's some examples of my incredibly low bar that still is like better than nothing, Like buying some random sheet masks and doing them with Annabelle and having that be like a nice little pre bedtime skincare treat, or like a really quick walk outside, like oh, let's just go outside for ten minutes, go around the block and check out the new Halloween decorations or whatever is going on for fall. Even having a fun dessert at home or baking something. I mean that like if you're tired and you don't want to go out, but it still can be fun to put something together and pull it out of the oven. These are things that, again, if your energy isn't even up for like browsing a bookstore and you're just like want to be in your pajamas, you can still do things that are more rewarding than the scroll or the waiting kind of a kind of an energy yeah.

00:16:53
Speaker 4: Or maybe it's that you are going for a walk somewhere during a kid activity, or there's just saucers that I remember when Ruth had soccer at a particular place, I got in a habit of actually bringing my running clothes and you know, this is like September October when it was still light from six to seven activity, but I would I would run on a trail near there, and that was a trail I wouldn't normally be on, and so that was a little adventure as well. You can also take one night for you So this is one of the Tranquility by Tuesday rules. And so you know, I suggest that everyone have some activity in their life that is not work and is not caring for family.

00:17:32
Speaker 3: And for many.

00:17:32
Speaker 4: People, a weekday evening is a good time for this, right, you know, especially if there's something that you want to do that's in your community and involves other people. Many of those activities are going to be of necessity in the evening because that's just when people are available. So I sing at a choir on Thursday nights, so that is my night for me that I take off. The best way, obviously, most efficient way to do this, not best way, but the most efficient way is if you have to parents who are generally home in the evenings, you could trade off. Each of you gets one night off, so you can go sing in your choir and your spouse can go play in their pickleball league. Or you have a regular volunteering thing you do on Wednesday nights and your spouse likes to go to the gym on Monday nights, or whatever it is that you guys work it out so that you have something that each of you gets one night where you don't have to deal with all this, and that can be a way to just change up those golden hours so it feels like there's something fun for you.

00:18:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess my only caveat is like I've sort of tried that I feel like I have permission to do this and yet I just generally don't want to. I do go to book club. So I guess if there's like a social event that's compelling enough where I'm going to get together with friends, then I can make it happen. But approximately once every six weeks or so is about the cadence that works for me. If I had, like, you know, an ideal well, I guess I kind of do have a fairly ideal setup. Like I much prefer a full weekend away every few months to the idea of taking like every Thursday night.

00:19:04
Speaker 3: That's just me.

00:19:05
Speaker 1: It has to do so much with my circadian rhythms and my very early mornings lately. So I think if things, you know, were different in another phase of life, I might feel differently.

00:19:15
Speaker 4: But you have something that you are really into that is not work and is not caring for a family.

00:19:20
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, totally totally.

00:19:22
Speaker 1: It's just that I meet with my running group every week.

00:19:24
Speaker 3: Actually, But in effect, you do have a commitment in the morning. It's just in the morning, yes.

00:19:28
Speaker 4: And that is a way to sort of if you think of time as being somewhat continuous, you can move things around, and so Sarah has consciously moved some of her golden hours to the morning. Right that she takes your personal time in the morning by going to bed earlier and then moves that chunk of time that she would have had as later night leisure time into the morning so that she can meet her running group and have that So time is a continuous kind of thing.

00:19:57
Speaker 1: Very good point.

00:19:58
Speaker 4: Yes, So you can also put in little things that you enjoy as you do the things that you have to do. You know, there's always these things that especially if you have made a work schedule that allows you to mostly be home in the evening, and so you are the parent who's mostly home with your children in the evening, you are taking care of them. Are there ways you can take care of them that you are more excited about? So if you read to your kids at night, maybe you can get some books that mom likes versus books that mom doesn't like. Right, I'll do a shout out to curating your children's bookshelf such that it is more of an enjoyable activity for you, especially if there are sort of early school age children, they might get into chapter books. And say, many of us probably have memories of books we quite enjoyed as young children, and that might be something you could resurrect and enjoy experiencing with your kids as well.

00:20:55
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is why you hide the Richard Scary and you buy the print and jam for Francis.

00:21:02
Speaker 3: In our house, they tried.

00:21:04
Speaker 4: The fact that people gave you like three copies of the Giving Tree does not mean you need three copies of the Giving Tree on your shelfl or like oh really all right, oh my goodness, just.

00:21:14
Speaker 1: No rich and Scary. None of those books where I have to like go all around the page or like the kids want to stop and search for stuff.

00:21:20
Speaker 4: Well, so the upside of when the kid can't read yet is you can skip pages, right, Like, so I would go through cars and trucks and things that go at a rate of four pages at once, Like I just hold two pages together and flip them.

00:21:32
Speaker 3: They don't know, they don't know. It's a new story every night.

00:21:37
Speaker 1: True. True.

00:21:38
Speaker 4: So if you are at a kid's activity, obviously you can use the time for something that might be enjoyable for you. I mean, if you're not taking care of a two year old on the sidelines of somebody else's saying, which, by the way, if you can avoid doing that is probably a major boost in your happiness level. So again, if there's anything you can do to not be doing that. But if you are out of kid's activity on your own or only with say another child who is also able to do stuff like be on an iPad or read a book, you can use the time to read a book yourself. You could take a walk, maybe call a friend while you're doing so, multitask in that good way and you know, just make laps around the track while your kid is on the baseball diamond and you are talking with a friend, and you know, you watch the games, but you don't need to necessarily watch all the drills that they are doing.

00:22:32
Speaker 3: So that's something you could do.

00:22:34
Speaker 1: I always write blog posts during gymnastics. It's like I don't know now, it's like linked in my brain. I get to the gymnastics place, I sit down, I get my laptop out, and like my brain knows it's like time to write a blog post. So you can even work if it's something that's worked that's for me. That's like fun work.

00:22:49
Speaker 3: Fun work.

00:22:50
Speaker 4: Yeah, or just even if it is going to be all night with the toddlers and you're not going anywhere. Sometimes if you go into the evening with one per twoicular activity in mind, especially as the kids are younger, you can direct them toward that activity as opposed to them requesting something that you are definitely not going to want to do. Like let's say that your least favorite thing on the planet is playing Candyland. Like if you kind of go into the evening with no idea you know what's happening, and your four year old is really, really, really into candy Land, Like there's gonna be a request to play candy Land. You're gonna have this angel and demon like do I play it?

00:23:27
Speaker 3: I don't want to play it?

00:23:28
Speaker 4: Like you're gonna whine about it, and then like eventually you'll do it, but then everybody feels bad about it because you are not happy about it anyway.

00:23:34
Speaker 3: So what if you go in with.

00:23:36
Speaker 4: Like, oh, I've got these old magazines and we're gonna make collages with it, right, you know, it's like I got you know here, we have poster board because I ordered it, and you know, we have all these old magazines. So let's cut out shapes of whatever, plants, cookies, I don't know, Let's make collages. And that's something that you don't hate as much yeah, or maybe even your yeah vision board. It's your vision board, So yes, your toddler's vision board is going to be all cookies, but.

00:24:03
Speaker 3: Yes, totally.

00:24:05
Speaker 4: The kid is more likely to go along with it if you are enthusiastic about it, and then you maybe don't have to do the activity or even have an argument over the activity that you definitely do not want to do.

00:24:16
Speaker 1: I love it. FaceTime also can be an activity for toddlers like you can be like Wednesday night we FaceTime Grandma and Grandpa. That can take up a lot of time. You can like stretch it out. You can have them like go into their room with the iPad and hang out with Grandma and Grandpa via the iPad and get some time for yourself, so like yeah again. Doesn't have to be elaborate, but some thought is better than no thought.

00:24:37
Speaker 4: Also, going outside if you can, this is often something that changes the mood entirely. Time outside is a known mood booster. And obviously you know, in many places where our listeners live, April through October is a different experience than say October through April.

00:24:53
Speaker 3: But even if it is dark. I heard from a listener who was doing.

00:24:57
Speaker 4: A five point thirty to six thirty fire pit with her kids who are a little bit older, So she wasn't worried about like a toddler leaping in the fire, but that was something that was filling the early dark evening hours that they could go outside and do. If you have a lit up porch, that's obviously a space that you could go. I don't have an outside dessert or something like that. Just these are things you could do. Go out with hot chocolate, enjoy that time. Yeah, a lot of people close their hot tubs if they're connected to their pools, So if you have one, that would be great too.

00:25:28
Speaker 1: Some people have standalone hot tubs. Thanks to Kay, she like what our listeners, Yes she gets in some great hot tub time. And that sounded worse than it was. But no, they really enjoy it, like as a family and like as a relaxing thing. When I see that, I get really jealous. And then I like, picture a hot tub in South Florida, and I picture the mosquito is like buzzing around the water and I'm.

00:25:48
Speaker 3: Not becomes a pond without you know, constant, constant attending. We touched on this earlier.

00:25:54
Speaker 4: You may also want to minimize the housework and next stay prep because one of the things that makes people feel like this is a thing list second shift is that they are trying to get their houses spotless. They are trying to get dinner on the table while kids are swarming around them. They then use the time after the kids are in bed to make lunches for the next day. So as much as you cannot do that, you might be able to reclaim some of this golden hour time for either more relaxed time with your children or leisure time for yourself.

00:26:27
Speaker 3: If we're talking about the time after they are in bed.

00:26:30
Speaker 4: So if at all possible, outsourcing some of the housekeeping you use very simple meals. One of the reasons we have a meal template for our week is that we don't have to think about it, and these meals are all very easy to make. I've started having my older three children make our breakfast for dinner. So somebody makes the eggs, somebody makes the bacon, somebody makes the pancakes or waffles.

00:26:54
Speaker 3: I just cut up the fruit. It's all good.

00:26:57
Speaker 4: If you have somebody who is like an after school will sitter or obviously a full time nanny, maybe that person could put something in the oven earlier so it's ready when you're done with work, or even to stick things in a crock pot so that's ready. You know, they could boil water for pasta even so there's just like one less step. Even if they're on their way out the door with the second you come in, that's still something that could get started so that you would have less of the need to cook with toddlers hanging on you. Kids can buy lunch in many school districts, obviously, or they can make it themselves. In our family, we have the policy that if you are over eight, you make it yourself where you buy it, so Alex is making his own lunch. And also that small kids don't need to be bathed nightly unless you enjoy it and want something to fill that time. And I know for some people it's like, if again you have the little the toddlers, you can stick two of them in a tub just kind of sit there. They're contained. Maybe that's a way you can fill thirty minutes. But if you don't like it, then you certainly do.

00:27:55
Speaker 3: Not have to do it.

00:27:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm in the camp that finds bath to be like a break most of the time. Especially once they reach a certain age, it's like a little pool they're entertaining themselves with twice so and then I can read or play on my phone or do whatever during that time. So I tend to be pro bath. And also then I like how they smell and look more so that somehow like actually enhances my experience of caring for them, which maybe sounds a little superficial, but I'm really talking more about like Genevieve stage group, the other two kids are in charge of themselves and they will take their own showers and all that. But like I'm like pro bath time as a rather pleasant wind down activity most evenings.

00:28:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

00:28:33
Speaker 4: And if you are doing a split shift, which this is how I refer to working at night after your kids go to bed. And in my study that I did for I know how she does it. Of women who had six figure jobs and also had kids at home, a fairly large percentage did do this strategy, which is one way that they were able to end work earlier. Now, again, remember I was doing this study in twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen, so fewer professional jobs offered work at home possibilities, So we're thinking about more like you needed to come home a commute, and obviously many people still do, but you know, I know more people are working at home these days too. But anyway, you would come home at a reasonable time, spend the evening with your kids, and then do more work at night after the kids went to bed. And so this was a way that people could see young kids that went to bed at say seven thirty eight, as opposed to staying at work till six thirty seven and having a very limited time window with them. Maybe you left it five thirty and then we're able to spend two hours with them in the evening, and then you made up some of that time in the evening after the kids went to bed. Perfectly fine as a strategy, but if you are going to do this, make sure you have a limited to do list for this time. You aren't going to clean out a one thousand email backlog between eight and ten pm, Like you're not going to do it between nine and five, you know, during the day either.

00:29:51
Speaker 3: Like it's just don't set that as a goal.

00:29:54
Speaker 4: It might be that these are three things that I would like to do to feel prepared for tomorrow. Reviewing the notes for a meeting sending out the agenda for a meeting that's two days from now, and answering an email that required a little bit more thought from your boss. Okay, we're going to do those three things. Then it's done. Then go do something else, as opposed to having it just be like, oh, I have to work this whole time because I'm feeling behind.

00:30:17
Speaker 3: Just be very specific about what you want to get done.

00:30:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. My policy is like I generally don't do a lot of work in the evening because I actually generally don't cut off my worktime too early. So I feel like I do pretty much get a full day unless like a kid has a doctor's appointment or something. But on most days like more of like an eight thirty to four thirty and that's enough for me. However, the times that I am going to do a second shift is if I have something deadline driven and finite. So it's like Laura and I are recording tomorrow and I haven't done my show notes, so I have to do them this evening or tomorrow at four am or whatever. Like I know that it will mess me up if I don't do it, and so then I can cheerfully do my one task and like move on. But I'm not going to just like work or works sake or to prove a point or something like that. And I really try very hard to be as efficient as possible during the day so that this isn't even something that is necessary. But it's a nice, nice backup for me. Yeah.

00:31:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an overflow spot if you need to use it. But if you're not using it, or you know, you get your work done in thirty forty five minutes and you have two hours or something after your kids go to bed, you know, if they're younger, then think about what you want to do with any leisure or couple time that you might have in the evening. And again, you know, if both parties are usually home, maybe you could aim for one night to do something together. Lots of couples have like a television show they enjoy watching together, or maybe you go use that.

00:31:38
Speaker 3: Fire pit or hot tub.

00:31:39
Speaker 4: If you're one of these people who have the really cool suburban house with the stuff that's in the real estate listing that you then don't ever use, but you know you could use it, right like, so you know, maybe have one night where you go do that and think about you know, your leisure is there. One of the other Tranquility by Tuesday rules is to do effortful fund before effortless fund. So if you have a hobby or something that you would like to do, if it's your puzzles, you're crocheting, you're sketching, whatever it happens to be reading, try to do some of that before you watch television or you know, but you couldn't again, if you plot out your evenings. And let's say you kids are little and they're in bed at like seven forty five or something, I mean, you couldn't theory actually watch a movie before going to bed. If you know you're not up until six thirty in the morning, go to bed at ten thirty, Like you could.

00:32:26
Speaker 3: Watch a movie between eight and ten. I mean, that would.

00:32:28
Speaker 4: Actually really work. But you have to think about it, right. You have to think that that's what I want to do, as opposed to sort of letting the time kind of putter away.

00:32:36
Speaker 1: And it does feel I use TV as a nice example where it feels very different to purposefully do it and look forward to it and have like the show that you want to put on and like maybe in an ideal world like your friend's gonna put it on at the same time. You can text each other like what's happening, or you're watching it with your partner and you guys are doing something, you know, watching a series together and kind of saving it to only watch together. That versus the like default feeling of like like oh, I'm so tired, like what does Netflix recommend? Whatever kind of a It's like it's the same thing, but it feels incredibly different, and so I don't know. I put certain types of screen times still in the effortful or purposeful basket, even if perhaps like far away they may look similar to what we use as examples of effortless.

00:33:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, just two more quick ideas here. One is to plot out your bedtime routine. So this is the one thing that derails people try to get in bed on time is they haven't actually built in how long it takes.

00:33:32
Speaker 3: Them to wind down.

00:33:34
Speaker 4: And most people cannot just go, go, go, go, go, and then be in bed and then that's it, like they fall asleep. A lot of people need a little bit more time to wind down. If you do like to read before bed, then one thing that helps with us is being ready enough before bed that you have space for this, So like rush your teeth and wash your face by ten fifteen if you're lights out as eleven, so then you've got forty minutes to read in bed. You need to get up and turn out the lights and all that, and so you can kind of enjoy that time and be aware that you have that whole time, which feels like more of a treat as opposed to like, oh, now I have to get up and go get ready for bed, and you're always having that thing that you're going to have to stop for.

00:34:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to do a lot of my getting ready activities while I'm kind of getting the kids ready for bed, Like if Genevieve's in the bath, I will do my skincare at the same time, I will brush my teeth. I will have everything done. So I like to make my on ramp to bedtime as short as possible. Well, I'm kind of like doing other things and that way, when I am done, I'm like, ah, this is just time for me to relax and I don't have a lot to do. But the awareness of how long that stuff takes, I think is very helpful and.

00:34:40
Speaker 3: Also kind of just changing your mindset.

00:34:42
Speaker 4: I mean, one of the things of having this mindset of the golden hours is like, you know, golden and happy, and thinking of your bedtime routine is like this, this self care, this decadent kind of thing where you're like getting yourself ready for bed and enjoying your bed if you're reading in there or hanging out with your partner and you whatever, but like that you're enjoying this time and that it is part of your evening as opposed to like run run, run and tell bedtime. You know, you've thought about the time. How much time do I have before my bedtime? Which you should give yourself a bedtime on weekday mornings because there's probably a time you wake up, so however much time you need to sleep, count back that's your bedtime. But you know, map out this time that if I'm done with work at five thirty, if I'm in bed at ten thirty, these are the five hours that ends with me being in my bed with the lights out, how does the day unfold? And what do I wish to do at this time? What do I wish to allocate this time too? I'm getting up to there and with that, finally reflect, So you have had these five hours or however much time it is, how did you spend them?

00:35:46
Speaker 3: Are you happy about how you spent that? What would you like to do differently?

00:35:50
Speaker 4: So every week, as you plan your week, you can kind of reflect back on how your Golden Hours work, if there were things that you enjoyed and want to do more of, if there were a particular pain points that you'd like to brainstorm ways to make better than. Over time, you can start to make your Golden Hours even more golden.

00:36:09
Speaker 1: I love it. I love the reframe. I love the reflection. The reflection process also works with other routines morning, lunch, kid, after school. So hey, maybe this will become a series. But I do feel like Golden Hours has not gotten enough attention, and so I'm very glad that you put the spotlight on it.

00:36:25
Speaker 3: Absolutely well.

00:36:26
Speaker 4: So our listener question this week comes from someone who is concerned that her son has not taken to potty training yet and the issue is that to move up to the next class in daycare, he needs to be out of diapers, and so she was wondering about how the best way to go about doing this. A lot of the books she had read talked about doing a two or three day boot camp where the kid, you know, you stay home all day, and she said that, you know, wasn't going to be easy to pull off in their lives right now. So what did we do? So, Sarah, what do you have potty training secrets?

00:37:06
Speaker 1: I don't have any secrets. The only thing I will say is that I think the rush to potty train is like overrated, and we tended to wait until right around age three for each of the kids, and therefore, well, I don't know if it's there for you know, every single kid is also different, and there are no metals for doing it early or if it's easy. But waiting until age three for us seemed to help the whole process be less protracted because there was just a more understanding from the kid because cognitively they're just more developed and they can get more hands around, like what is the goal here? And like you can tell explain about the nice underwear that they're trying to keep nice and they are going to understand that better than your average twenty month old or two year old. So for us, that was generally what we did. Our nanny did a lot of the legwork during the day, so I can't even take that much credit. But we did wait kind of till the end of the typical time period that a lot of people wait.

00:38:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was sort of my experience too, is that if you waited long enough. We bought underwear and encouraged them to try it and encourage them to try the potty frequently, and some kids were into it and some just like no, no interest.

00:38:23
Speaker 3: And then you just you know.

00:38:24
Speaker 4: Keep offering it and try to be patient because eventually they do all get it. Like your child will not be five in kindergarten and still in diapers most likely. If that's the case, then you probably have a different issue going on. But the vast majority of kids sort of in the normal spectrum will get it at some point when they're three. If they you know, it's going to happen, and so yeah, there's no prize for doing it earlier. Right now, I understand that there is the question of moving up to the next room, but I think that's where the peer pressure starts to come in, because at some point your child's friends will all have moved up, and we'd be like, but I don't get to play with Johnny anymore. It's like, oh, that's because Johnny moved to the class where everyone wears underwear. You know, it's like the kid like, oh, interesting, and you know it's like, you know, still got to be patient about it. But because you don't know, I mean, maybe maybe your kid really really loves the daycare teacher.

00:39:26
Speaker 3: In the littler class and doesn't want to leave.

00:39:29
Speaker 4: Her, and so is fighting this with the you know, you just don't know, and kids have their own thing, and so yeah, we just took it slow, kept offering, and eventually the kids were enough into it that, Like Henry was honestly once he decided it was overnight like and we didn't even have to. He was like, I don't want to wear diapers overnight, and I'm like, okay, I guess we'll try that. And he has not ever ever. I mean knock on wood here because they'll probably do it tonight, but he has not had any accidents in his bed. So it's it's like by that time, it's just done and you don't even have to fight at all.

00:40:04
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

00:40:04
Speaker 4: I guess being patient is rather than any sort of boot camp, seems to be what has worked in my family.

00:40:10
Speaker 1: We did give eminems for rewards.

00:40:12
Speaker 4: I'm sure, I get yeah, you know, if the kid is on the edge of like trying the potty, then like, yes, skittles or something some other candy that is, you know, not usually in your house might be fun. The problem with having four older siblings is they eat it like you can put a sign on it, be like this is only for potty training the toddler, and it's just somehow.

00:40:33
Speaker 1: I think at one point when we were training Genevieve ben doing the Eminem's that big kids claimed like, well, if she goes to the bathroom, we also get Eminem's.

00:40:41
Speaker 3: So I go to the bathroom, where are I M? And MS? I know it? Just see, yeah, you get candy at one point in your life and then never again anyway. So, Sarah, what's your love of the week this week?

00:40:54
Speaker 1: My love of the week is my new phone because I have mixed feelings because I hate the idea that you have to replace your phone. Like my phone is two and a half years old, so it's not that old. But I dig geut a fifteen as an upgrade from a twelve mini. The camera's got all this condensation in them and I couldn't take any pictures and it was kind of problematic, and like gott to say, there's just it works a lot better, works faster, the buttons press better somehow, like the operating system seem to be on like a more sophisticated level, like it's good.

00:41:26
Speaker 3: It's good, that's good.

00:41:28
Speaker 4: Lot my new phone, I probably need to replace my next point, I think, yeah, I got mine right at the beginning of twenty nineteen, so it'll be five years old pretty soon.

00:41:38
Speaker 3: Proud of myself managed to hold on to it that long.

00:41:41
Speaker 4: But I had a period of time where it stopped working particularly well, but I just cleaned it and it got itself back in order. So so you know, my people are having a glitchy phone sometimes that helps, So give it a whirl. My love of the week is a children's book called Fletcher and the Falling Leaves. So somebody recommended this to me a couple of years ago when I was looking for autumn themed children's books to read with kids, and Alex and I have been the one reading it together, and he's older than reading children's picture books now, but this has always been one we sort of read together and it's really nice. It feels very autumny and ends with kind of a moment of wonder that I'll just hint at and you can get the book yourself and see that you can be dazzled on.

00:42:28
Speaker 3: The last page. But there are a couple of seasonal children's books that I'm really into. I like Fletcher and the Falling Leaves for Christmas.

00:42:36
Speaker 4: I love The Christmas Farm, which is about an older woman and her young neighbor that plant Christmas trees on the hill behind her house. And you know, over the course of five years, the tree grows and the five year old grows to be a ten year old and they sell them to people and it's actually just a really cool story. For Spring, I like Sugar Bush Spring, which is about maple syrup making and New England and how you do that. And then in summer, I love this book called Night of the Moonjellies, which is about a lobster roll stand on the shore in Massachusetts somewhere. I think that on a night that again it's that moment of wonder at the end of the book when it turns out to be the night of thousands of moonjellies in this ocean all around. So anyway, couple books that you might want to check out and those can be my love of the week.

00:43:26
Speaker 1: Awesome.

00:43:28
Speaker 3: Well, this has been best of both worlds. We've been talking about your golden hours, how to make over that time after work before bed to be more enjoyable, to not feel like we are wishing time away or wasting it, because time is precious and we want to enjoy as much of our lives as possible. So we will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.

00:43:51
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

00:43:59
Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.