Life After Ministry

Episode Summary What if the missing piece to a thriving ministry isn’t more strategy or programs but healthier culture? In this episode of Life After Ministry, we dive deep with Jenni Catron, a renowned culture coach, to uncover the secret sauce behind teams that thrive.  Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention. Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries.  Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level. Key Takeaways Great culture doesn’t happen by accident: It takes a clear vision and deliberate effort. Why leaders often miss the mark: Without clarity, teams are left guessing - and disengaged. Staff transitions matter more than you think: How we say goodbye impacts the whole team’s trust and morale. Culture as stewardship: Healthy staff culture is the foundation for effective ministry. Chapter Markers 0:00 - Welcome and intro to Jenni Catron 3:00 - Jenni’s journey: from music exec to church leader to culture coach 9:00 - What makes or breaks culture? Defining the “how” behind teamwork 18:00 - Conquering resistance: Leading through change with patience and clarity 30:00 - Staff transitions: The culture-shaping moments we often overlook 45:00 - Behind Jenni’s book Culture Matters and what’s next   Are you ready to build a culture that inspires your team and fuels your ministry? Don’t leave it to chance - start taking intentional steps today. Join Jenni Catron and other incredible speakers at the free Culture Matters Summit. Register now at culturemattersummit.com. Explore Jenni’s new book, Culture Matters, and access tools to lead with clarity at get4sight.com/. For more resources on making your staff transitions as graceful as your ministry, visit Pastoral Transitions. Let’s transform how we lead, together.

Episode Summary: In this special episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, Matt Davis, Bill Tom, and Noe Rivera - the founders of Pastoral Transitions - take listeners behind the scenes of their work, sharing insights into the emotional and practical challenges pastors face during ministry transitions. From navigating grief and burnout to finding new career paths and healing spiritually, this conversation sheds light on the complexities of pastoral life after ministry. They explore how churches can handle transitions with love, care, and intentionality, and they share hopeful stories of pastors finding new beginnings. This episode isn’t just about transitions - it’s about reshaping the way we approach them in the church. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader, or someone supporting ministry workers, this discussion is packed with wisdom and practical takeaways. Key Takeaways: Pastors are often silent sufferers, facing immense personal and professional pressures with few healthy outlets. The average pastoral tenure is only 3.6 years, making healthy transitions a critical need for churches. Grieving and gaining are both essential parts of the transition process; pastors must address their emotional health to thrive in new roles. Churches can strengthen their culture by handling goodbyes with grace and care, rather than division and pain. Pastoral Transitions has cut the average transition time from 12-18 months to just 4-5 months by offering personalized support. Mental health awareness is growing in the church, but there’s still work to be done to normalize counseling for ministry leaders. Chapter Markers: 0:00 – Introduction: The purpose of Pastoral Transitions and 2024 reflections. 1:30 – Bill’s journey: How his heart has grown for pastors in transition. 2:35 – The ripple effects of pastoral challenges on families and ministries. 3:27 – Coaching pastors to rediscover God’s voice amid transition. 4:48 – Career concerns: Helping pastors identify transferable skills. 7:28 – Reducing transition time: From 12 months to under 5 months. 10:05 – The grieving and gaining process in pastoral transitions. 15:51 – The cultural impact of poorly handled transitions. 18:52 – Redefining work as ministry: Marketplace ministry opportunities. 23:31 – Growing impact: Changing how the church thinks about transitions. 31:18 – Building a healthy culture of succession in churches. 32:43 – A message of hope: God’s provision and healing during difficult times. 36:54 – How to support pastors in transition: Practical steps for churches and individuals. Transitions are never easy, but they can be done with love, grace, and intentionality. Join the mission to help pastors and their families heal and find hope. Share this episode with your church leaders or friends in ministry, and consider supporting a pastor in transition by donating at pastoraltransitions.com/donate. Together, we can transform how the church handles change and bring restoration to the body of Christ.

Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation? Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship. Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement. In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ. And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups. For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen. Key Points The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ. Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six. The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths. The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation. Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms. Pull Quotes "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus." "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd." "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation." "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love." Chapter Markers 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots Want to Go Deeper? Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance. Website: SoilandRoots.org Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms) Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.

What Happens When Ministry Ends? What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation? For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent. In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges. Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering. Key Points From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020. The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated. Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?” Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him. The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess. Pull Quotes "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us." "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like." "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart." "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens." Chapter Markers 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness Want to Go Deeper? Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth. Website: SoilandRoots.org Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms) Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Wes Gay is doing through StoryBrand by going to: https://www.wesgay.com/  Episode Summary  Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay. In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success. Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry. Key Takeaways Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change. Pull Quotes "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry." "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world." "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey. [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding. [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll. [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles. [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership. [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind. [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace. [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy. [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about. [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry. [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation. [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn about the great work Matt McGee is doing through "The Last Service Podcast" by going to: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-last-service-podcast/id1491573751  Episode Summary  Imagine standing at the pulpit after your last sermon, knowing it's not just the end of a service, but the end of your ministry journey at that church. What happens next? In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Matt McGee, founder of The Last Service Podcast, to explore the difficult transitions pastors face when they step away from ministry. Whether it's through burnout, church closure, or simply moving into a new season, Matt McGee has seen firsthand the emotional toll and the challenges that follow. This episode tackles the question, "Is there life after ministry?" with a powerful reminder that ministry doesn’t end with a job title. Key Takeaways You Are Not a Failure: Leaving ministry - whether through a church closure or a transition—does not define your worth or calling. Find Community After Ministry: Pastors must actively seek support, guidance, and pastoral care when leaving ministry to avoid isolation and burnout. Reshaping Ministry: Ministry is not confined to church walls; it can happen anywhere - whether teaching in a school or simply being present for someone in need. The Pain of Transition: Both pastors and their families carry deep emotional scars during church transitions, but acknowledging and processing these feelings is key to healing. Proactive Pastoral Care: Churches should plan for pastoral transitions with intentionality, bringing in help and creating space for joy and healing, rather than letting the process turn solely into a business decision. Pull Quotes "You're not a failure. Mistakes happen, but they don’t define the Spirit of God or your calling." "We are believers in resurrection, and just like death brings new life, leaving ministry can lead to new beginnings." "Ministry isn't about the pulpit - it’s about being a godly influence wherever you are, whether that’s teaching at a school or working at Burger King." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Matt McGee and the conversation begins with ministry transitions. [00:50] Early Ministry Calling – Matt McGee shares his journey into ministry and how God led him to serve in the church. [06:18] Transitioning Out – Matt McGee describes the internal and external factors that led to his departure from church ministry. [11:23] The Breaking Point – A difficult leadership dynamic and unaligned values lead Matt to a crucial conversation with his pastor. [14:59] Aftermath of Leaving Ministry – Matt shares the emotional and practical challenges his family faced after his sudden departure. [19:16] Community Support Post-Ministry – How Matt's church community responded after he left, and the importance of maintaining healthy relationships. [21:30] Returning to Teaching as Ministry – Matt’s journey back into education, this time with a renewed sense of calling and mission. [25:29] Redefining Ministry – How stepping outside church walls changed Matt's perspective on ministry and service. [29:56] Last Service Podcast – The inspiration behind Matt McGee’s Last Service Podcast, which explores church closures and transitions. [33:42] The Importance of Pastoral Care in Transitions – How church leaders can approach closures with care and attention to the emotional needs of their congregation. [36:58] Encouragement for Pastors in Transition – Matt offers words of wisdom for pastors facing their final service, reminding them they are not failures. [42:06] Conclusion – Matt McGee shares where listeners can find The Last Service Podcast and other resources.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Jordan Whilden is doing through MinistryHub by going to: https://ministryhub.org/  Episode Summary What happens when you step away from the calling you’ve always known and venture into the unknown? Jordan Whilden found himself at that crossroads, leaving behind nearly a decade of church ministry for an uncertain future in the marketplace. But this episode of Life After Ministry is not just about leaving; it’s about rediscovering purpose, redefining ministry, and understanding that God's calling often transcends job titles. Jordan's journey from pastor to CEO of Ministry Hub reveals how stepping away from a church role doesn’t mean stepping away from serving the Kingdom. In this episode, Matt Davis talks with Jordan about the anxiety that comes with such a leap, the lessons learned, and how God continued to use his gifts in new, impactful ways. For anyone wrestling with the question, "Is there life after ministry?" - Jordan’s story offers hope, clarity, and insight. Key Takeaways Transitioning Well: When stepping out of vocational ministry, it’s essential to take time for self-reflection and healing before jumping into the next chapter. A New Kind of Ministry: Jordan’s experience shows that leaving church staff doesn’t mean leaving ministry. There are ways to serve the Kingdom that may have even broader impacts. A Pastor’s Heart, Reimagined: Even when Jordan stepped into the marketplace, he carried the heart of a pastor, finding new ways to shepherd leaders through Ministry Hub. Building Clarity: It’s crucial to understand your strengths, desires, and God’s calling before leaping into a new career - clarity leads to thriving. Supporting Transitions: Ministry Hub focuses on helping pastors and churches navigate transitions effectively, recognizing the unique needs of both sides in today’s job market. Pull Quotes "As soon as I stepped into the marketplace, there was a breath of fresh air - freedom I didn’t realize I needed." "Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean you leave ministry; I found a way to invest more in the Kingdom in a broader way." "The goal is to land in a place where you thrive - where you can be the most fruitful in your calling." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jordan Whilden, founder and CEO of Ministry Hub. [00:10] Early Ministry Career – Jordan discusses his calling into ministry, starting as a high school pastor and moving into discipleship roles. [01:59] Decision to Leave Church Ministry – Jordan explains the factors that led him to leave his pastoral role, including burnout and church culture changes. [04:02] The Fear of Transition – The emotional and practical challenges of leaving ministry, and how Jordan navigated his “day zero” in stepping away from vocational church work. [05:14] Life After Ministry – Jordan reflects on his first Sunday post-ministry and the process of finding a new church home. [08:13] The Birth of Ministry Hub – How Jordan’s passion for connecting people and creating systems led to the development of Ministry Hub. [11:54] Serving Pastors in Transition – Jordan shares insights on what pastors look for when transitioning out of ministry, and how Ministry Hub supports them. [13:42] Serving Churches in Transition – Ministry Hub’s innovative approach to helping churches find new leaders through scalable, flexible staffing solutions. [17:26] Encouragement for Leaders in Transition – Jordan gives practical advice to pastors in transition, from crafting clear resumes to knowing their personal calling. [20:56] Redefining Ministry Beyond the Church – How Jordan sees his current work with Ministry Hub as a broader way to serve the church and the Kingdom. [23:45] How to Connect with Ministry Hub – Jordan shares how pastors and churches can connect with Ministry Hub for help in transitions and staffing.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Jeremy Stalnecker is doing through the Mighty Oaks Foundation by going to: https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/ Episode Summary  Imagine coming home from leading Marines on the battlefield in Iraq, only to feel lost and frustrated while trying to get church volunteers to clean a bathroom. The intensity and mission-driven focus of war collide with the quieter challenges of ministry life in ways that can lead to emotional turmoil. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine officer turned pastor, to discuss how transitioning out of the military and into ministry nearly destroyed him. Jeremy shares how misaligned expectations, hidden trauma, and identity loss can derail even the most driven leaders - and how a balance of grace, truth, and time helped him navigate those life-altering transitions. Together, they explore how to rediscover purpose, even when life feels like it's falling apart. Key Takeaways Identity Shift: Transitioning from military life to ministry was overwhelming for Jeremy, revealing how tied his identity was to his role in the Marines. Lack of Intensity in Church Ministry: The shift from the high-stakes environment of the military to the slower pace of church life left Jeremy feeling frustrated and disconnected from the mission. The Power of Honest Confrontation: A pivotal moment came when Jeremy's pastor confronted him about his behavior, helping him realize that the problem started within, not with external circumstances. Seeking Guidance: Transition requires mentorship and guidance from those who’ve walked the path before - a crucial element Jeremy wished he had during his shift from the Marines to ministry. Ministry Beyond the Church Walls: Jeremy's work with Mighty Oaks Foundation demonstrates how ministry can thrive outside the church setting, helping veterans and first responders find healing through faith. Pull Quotes "Everything I had ever wanted to be a part of, I had done - and then I was leading church staff meetings, trying to wrangle volunteers. It was a whole different world." "The reasons for your behavior may be valid, but they’re not excuses. You can’t justify the way you're acting, no matter what you’ve been through." "Your calling may change locations, but the gifts God gives you are without repentance - they’ll follow you wherever you go." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jeremy Stalnecker, discussing the transitions from military service to ministry. [00:15] Military Service and the Iraq War – Jeremy recounts his time as a Marine officer and his experience during Operation Iraqi Freedom. [02:15] Transition from the Marines to Ministry – Jeremy describes the challenge of shifting from combat to church staff life, feeling out of place and frustrated. [06:46] The Struggle in Ministry – The tension between military urgency and church work led to anger and personal turmoil, both at home and in church staff meetings. [09:55] Confrontation with the Pastor – Jeremy's pastor confronts him about his behavior, offering both support and a challenge to change. [12:15] Turning Point – A key turning point where Jeremy takes time off to reflect and begins to recognize the internal issues driving his actions. [14:27] Becoming a Senior Pastor – Jeremy transitions into a senior pastor role, facing new challenges and personal growth in the process. [15:55] Moving from Senior Pastor to Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy shares how he transitioned into his current role at Mighty Oaks, blending his military and ministry backgrounds. [18:34] Navigating a Smooth Transition – Practical advice on how Jeremy managed his transition out of pastoral ministry into nonprofit leadership. [21:22] Ministry in Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy explains how Mighty Oaks helps veterans and first responders heal through faith and how his pastoral skills apply in his current role. [24:49] Pastoring Beyond the Church – Discussing the concept of pastoring as a role, not just a title, and how Jeremy continues to pastor in a different capacity. [28:40] How to Connect with Mighty Oaks – Jeremy shares where to find more information on Mighty Oaks and how to get involved or refer someone in need of help.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work John Opalewski is doing at Converge Coaching by going to: https://convergecoach.com/  Episode Summary Imagine achieving what seems like ministry success on the outside - leading a growing church, serving a vibrant congregation - while internally battling crippling anxiety, sleepless nights, and the haunting thought of leaving it all behind. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with John Opalewski of Converge Coaching to explore how ministry leaders can hit their breaking point despite outward success. John shares his personal journey of going from thriving youth pastor to suicidal depression as a senior pastor, and the hard-won lessons about self-care, boundaries, and the crucial role of mental health in ministry. Together, they tackle the question: how can pastors prevent burnout and find lasting fulfillment in both ministry and life? Key Takeaways Workaholism and Neglect: Many pastors fall into the trap of overworking, neglecting their personal health, friendships, and boundaries, which often leads to burnout and depression. The Power of Honest Conversations: Addressing difficult emotions like anger and setting clear boundaries in ministry are vital for long-term emotional and mental health. Support from the Church Board: While a pastor’s well-being is their own responsibility, church boards can support this by providing resources like counseling and coaching. Depression Doesn't Define You: Depression isn't the end of your story. There are paths to recovery, healing, and a healthier way to live and serve in ministry. There is Life After Ministry: Ministry may take new forms, but the pastoral calling can continue beyond the pulpit, even in marketplace roles or other creative avenues. Pull Quotes "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus - it comes from chasing people or ideas that never seem to come to fruition." "Depression is not the final chapter in your story. There’s a way out, and it starts with finding a safe place to share." "Your calling follows you wherever you go. It may look different, but it never leaves you." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt welcomes John Opalewski to discuss his ministry journey and transition. [00:33] Early Calling into Ministry – John shares how he found his call to ministry through discipleship. [02:44] Entry into Pastoral Ministry – John describes his path to becoming a lead pastor and how it lacked preparation for the emotional challenges. [05:40] Challenges as a Lead Pastor – The immense pressure of being a senior pastor at 29, with a lack of boundaries and emotional maturity. [06:31] The Impact of Anger and Boundaries – How John's inability to manage anger and set boundaries led to emotional damage. [11:43] Role of the Elder Board in Supporting Pastors – John reflects on how boards can create space for preventive care for pastors’ mental health. [14:28] John's Breakdown – John recounts the moment he fell into suicidal depression, despite outward success in ministry. [19:38] Deciding to Leave Ministry – After two years of recovery, John decides to step down as lead pastor. [21:47] Transitioning into the Marketplace – John's surprising peace after leaving ministry and entering the corporate world. [24:21] Being Called Pastor After Stepping Down – John shares his mixed emotions when people continued to address him as “pastor” after he left. [25:45] Founding Converge Coaching – How John’s transition led to starting Converge Coaching to help pastors prevent burnout and stay healthy. [28:47] The Growing Need for Pastoral Care – John highlights the staggering burnout rates among pastors and the importance of coaching and support. [31:57] Words of Encouragement – John speaks directly to pastors facing burnout or depression, offering hope and guidance. [34:35] How to Connect with Converge Coaching – John explains the simple on-ramp to getting help through Converge Coaching. [35:59] Is There Life After Ministry? – John reassures listeners that ministry doesn't end after stepping away from the pulpit—your calling continues in new forms.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/   What if you dedicated decades of your life to ministry only to discover the role you've been striving to fulfill doesn't align with your true calling? In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt sits down with David Robinson, a seasoned pastor who faced the painful realization that his gifting was not what people had expected of him. Together, they tackle the disappointment of unfulfilled expectations in ministry, the challenges pastors face when their role doesn’t fit their calling, and the key to finding clarity and purpose in leadership. How can churches avoid burnout, embrace better hiring processes, and ensure that their pastors are operating within their true gifts? This episode dives deep into what it takes to build effective ministry teams and how to lead a church while avoiding common pitfalls. Key Takeaways Clarity Prevents Confrontation: Many conflicts arise from unclear expectations in leadership roles; upfront clarity in job descriptions and performance agreements is essential. Gifting vs. Role Expectations: Churches often expect pastors to fulfill multiple roles, but each leader needs to operate within their God-given spiritual gift. The Importance of Building a Team: An apostolic leader must focus on building a balanced team of other gifts - shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and prophets - instead of trying to do it all themselves. Relational Equity Matters: The strength of a church’s leadership is often determined by the relationships built outside formal meetings - trust grows from investing in personal connections. Burnout Doesn't Come From Chasing Jesus: Burnout in ministry occurs when leaders chase after people or tasks outside of their gifts, not from pursuing their true calling. Pull Quotes "Confrontation is the flip side of clarity. If you're not clear upfront, confrontation is inevitable." "God told me, 'I never called you to be a pastor.' It wasn't the shepherding gift He gave me, but another that was needed in the places He sent me." "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus; it comes from chasing people and tasks that don't align with your gift." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce David Robinson and the theme of unfulfilled expectations in ministry. [00:41] Unfulfilled Expectations in Leadership – David explains how lack of clarity in roles leads to disappointment and confrontation. [02:00] Five Key Areas of Clarity in Hiring – Spiritual gifting, temperament, clear job description, and performance agreements are necessary for successful leadership. [04:32] Frustration in Ministry – David shares his 40-year experience in ministry and the internal struggle of being called a "pastor" without having a shepherding gift. [07:50] The Role of Apostolic Leadership – A discussion on the difference between an apostolic gifting and the expectations placed on pastors. [12:44] Elders’ Role in Supporting Leadership – How elders hold pastors accountable and build trust through relational equity. [15:12] Tension Between Ministry and Corporate Approaches – Addressing the disconnect between ministry-focused staff and marketplace-minded elders. [18:08] Managing Transitions and Letting Go – How to approach pastoral transitions with grace and maintain emotional maturity during difficult conversations. [19:49] Vision vs. Management in Ministry – The importance of maintaining a compelling vision to prevent ministry from devolving into mere management. [21:59] Addressing Burnout in Ministry – How burnout happens when leaders pursue tasks outside their gifting and how to create balance. [26:27] Life After Ministry – David discusses the possibility of life after vocational ministry and how to embrace a new calling outside the church. Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/ Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/   Episode Summary Imagine walking into your church with a heart heavy from a broken marriage, unsure how your faith community will respond. The weight of shame, guilt, and fear can feel unbearable. This episode of Life After Ministry dives into the often unspoken struggles of divorce, especially for those in ministry. Divorce doesn't just impact a marriage, it shakes personal faith, family, and even one’s calling. Matt and Marilee Davis sit down with Kathy Batey, a divorce support expert, to explore the stigma of divorce in Christian circles, the unique pain pastors face when marriages fall apart, and how the church can better respond with love and grace instead of judgment. This episode sheds light on the real experiences of people struggling with the collapse of their marriage and how to heal and hope again. Key Takeaways The Church’s Response to Divorce: Instead of casting stones, churches need to approach divorce with compassion, understanding that healing requires support, not judgment. The Unique Pressure on Pastors: Pastors face additional layers of shame and complexity when dealing with divorce because of their public role in the faith community. God Hates Violence, Not Just Divorce: The often-quoted scripture about God hating divorce is often misapplied, as the heart of the issue is God's disdain for violence and broken relationships, not merely the legal separation. Hope After Divorce: Even after the pain of divorce, there is life, restoration, and potential for new purpose if individuals are intentional about healing. The Importance of Support Systems: Support groups, whether faith-based or community-oriented, are critical for healing and processing the trauma of divorce. Pull Quotes "Divorce causes damage, but God cares more about the individual than the institution of marriage." "You have a broken soul in front of you. How you treat this broken soul matters." "God has not divorced you. He still has a beautiful plan for your life." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce the topic of divorce in ministry. [01:05] Kathy Batey’s Journey – Kathy shares her personal experience with divorce and how it led her to support others. [02:56] The Stigma of Divorce in the Church – Exploring the shame and fear Christians feel around divorce. [05:01] Pastors and Divorce – The additional challenges pastors face when their marriages break down. [06:36] Misinterpretations of Malachi 2:16 – Kathy explains how the Bible's verse about God hating divorce is often misused. [10:28] Helping Pastors Struggling in Their Marriage – Kathy offers advice for ministry leaders facing marital challenges. [14:50] Church Leaders’ Role in Supporting Divorcing Pastors – Practical steps church boards can take to support pastors going through divorce. [18:35] Redemption After Divorce – A story of how one pastor was more impactful post-divorce. [20:37] Life After Divorce – The importance of healing and finding hope after a marriage ends. [25:50] Final Thoughts – Kathy encourages individuals going through divorce, reminding them of God's plan for their lives. Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/ Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In this episode of Life After Ministry, Chris Adams, Executive Director of Flourishing in Ministry, takes us deep into the heart of one of the biggest challenges pastors face today—burnout. With pastors feeling pulled in every direction, post-pandemic pressures, political polarization, and toxic church dynamics, how can they stay healthy and truly flourish? Chris shares his own background as a third-generation pastor and how he was inspired to care for those serving in ministry, especially after witnessing his grandfather's ministry burnout. Together, we unpack the emotional weight pastors carry and how Chris's work is helping pastors find real, tangible ways to prevent burnout, restore balance, and thrive, even when their ministries are struggling. Pull Quotes: "You can be so right, you're wrong. There’s a lot of that happening today." "Burnout sneaks up on pastors. By the time they realize it, the damage is done." "Pastors need to play. A little bit of fun, even 20-30 minutes a week, can make a huge difference." Key Takeaways: Burnout sneaks up: Most pastors are unaware they’re burning out until it reaches a critical level. Early warning signs must be recognized. Self-regulation is essential: Pastors are constantly exposed to toxic behavior and emotional stress. They need skills to process and release those burdens. Playtime is necessary: Even a small amount of leisure time can rejuvenate mental and physical health and contribute to long-term well-being. Daily rhythms matter: Pastors should practice simple daily wellness routines, like a 5-minute pause or a 15-minute walk, to maintain resilience. Flourishing despite hardship: A pastor’s ministry doesn’t need to be thriving for them to personally flourish; redefining success can lead to true fulfillment. Chapter Markers: 00:00 - Introduction and Chris's Ministry Background 02:30 - The "Clergy-Killing" Churches and Why Chris Stayed in Ministry 04:50 - The Current Health of Clergy in America 07:15 - Navigating Polarization and Flourishing Amidst Conflict 10:00 - The Daily Well-being of Pastors 12:30 - Importance of Contemplative Practices and Play 16:30 - Flourishing in Ministry Even When Ministry Isn’t Flourishing 19:40 - The Research Behind Burnout in Ministry 22:30 - Indicators of When to Consider Stepping Away from Ministry 26:20 - How Flourishing in Ministry is Helping Pastors

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In Episode 34 of Life After Ministry, Dennis Allen, author of The Disciple Dilemma, shares his journey from a military and corporate background to addressing one of the most significant crises in the church today: the failure of discipleship. Dennis discusses how the church has shifted from making disciples to prioritizing institutional success, leading to widespread disengagement, de-churching, and a broken model of ministry. Drawing on his leadership experience, Dennis explains how churches can refocus on their true mission—making disciples who make disciples. This episode is crucial for ministry leaders, decision-makers, and anyone grappling with the challenges of church leadership in today’s complex landscape. Dennis offers deep insights into how discipleship can transform churches, reduce pastor burnout, and create lasting impact in the lives of congregations. His message is a wake-up call to rethink the church's mission and rediscover the biblical model of discipleship. Join us as we dive into practical solutions for reviving discipleship in the church and hear Dennis' heartfelt encouragement to pastors who have transitioned out of ministry, reminding them that their identity is not lost—there is still hope and purpose beyond the pulpit. Takeaways The modern church has shifted from making disciples to focusing on institutional growth, leading to disengagement and the rise of the "de-churched." True discipleship is a life-on-life process, not something that can be achieved through programs or one-size-fits-all approaches. Pastors are often burdened with unrealistic expectations, leading to burnout and a broken leadership model in many churches. Churches need to rediscover their biblical mission: making disciples who make disciples, which starts with leadership modeling the way. Even after leaving vocational ministry, pastors can still fulfill their purpose by walking alongside others in discipleship, finding renewed hope and identity. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Welcome 00:20 - Dennis Allen’s Journey from Military and Corporate to Ministry 02:21 - Early Mentorship and the Biblical Model of Discipleship 04:30 - The Symptoms of the Discipleship Crisis in the Church 05:01 - The Rise of the "Nones," "Dones," and the De-Churched 07:24 - The Impact of COVID on Church Engagement 08:59 - Institutional Problems in the Church and the Burden on Pastors 11:52 - The Biblical Discipleship Model: Bet Sefer, Bet Midrash, Bet Talmud 14:09 - Implementing Real Discipleship in the Modern Church 17:03 - The Burden of the "Sunday Show" and Outsourcing Spiritual Responsibility 18:32 - Similarities Between Broken Churches and Broken Corporations 20:51 - Reclaiming the Church’s True Mission and Identity 23:03 - The Challenge of Discipleship in a Culture of Instant Gratification 24:45 - Overview of The Disciple Dilemma and Its Goals 26:04 - Encouragement for Pastors Transitioning Out of Ministry 27:30 - Closing Remarks and How to Connect with Dennis Allen

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    What do you do when God asks you to let go of the dream you’ve built your life around? Wade Joye, former worship leader at Elevation Church, shares his personal story of facing that very question. We talk about the book he wrote: This Dream Is Not For You. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Wade opens up about the moment Pastor Steven Furtick asked him to consider if he was willing to release what he was good at to embrace what God was calling him to be great at. Wade wrestled with letting go of his role as a worship leader—a dream he thought would last a lifetime—but in surrendering it, he discovered a deeper purpose. This episode speaks directly to those in ministry transition and the decision-makers tasked with helping others move forward. We explore the often painful process of releasing control and trusting God with an unknown future. Wade’s story is an encouragement to anyone navigating the loss of a role, identity, or dream, helping you recognize that God may be writing a greater story, even when the one you’re living seems to be falling apart. In this raw and honest conversation, Wade shares how embracing new dreams led him to a more fulfilling and joyful life, despite the fear and uncertainty along the way. From his pivotal conversation with Pastor Furtick to finding his calling beyond vocational ministry, Wade emphasizes that true peace and fulfillment often only come after we release our grip on our own plans and trust God with our whole lives. This episode is a must-listen for anyone facing ministry transitions, looking for hope and guidance as they step into the unknown. Takeaways Letting go of our own dreams can open the door to God's greater plans for us. Ministry transitions, while painful, are often part of God's way of refining us and leading us into a new season of purpose. Trusting the guidance of leaders and God's timing can help us navigate through uncertainty and discover new callings. Our identity should not be defined by what we do (such as a job or ministry role), but by who we are in Christ. Calling is more about who we are becoming in Jesus than about a specific role or career path. Leadership transitions create opportunities for others to step into their God-given roles, making room for new growth in the church or organization. True peace and fulfillment often come only after we release our grip on our own plans and trust God with our entire lives. Developing a healthy inner world, focusing on our spiritual and emotional health, is essential for effective leadership and finding joy in new assignments. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Welcome 00:38 - Wade’s Journey and the Story Behind the Book 04:15 - The Turning Point: Pastor Steven Furtick’s Challenge 06:10 - Wrestling with the Dream and Trusting Leadership 08:05 - Transitioning into New Roles and Calling 12:13 - Redefining Calling: Identity vs. Assignment 14:03 - Stepping Away from Elevation Church 17:31 - Finding Joy in Letting Go and Creating Space for Others 20:42 - True Peace and Fulfillment After Letting Go 25:13 - Wade’s Ministry Today: Coaching and The Joyful Leader Program 29:04 - Final Thoughts and Encouragement

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    What happens when pastors hang on too long or find themselves suddenly cut off from ministry? In part two of our conversation with Gene Getz on Life After Ministry, we tackle this crucial issue head-on. With over 50 years in ministry and 20 years post-succession, Gene offers practical wisdom on how to prepare for life after ministry, including avoiding bitterness, maintaining humility, and finding a new calling. He shares how his own transition didn’t end his impact - in fact, it led to creating the world’s first multimedia study Bible. For those wrestling with disappointment, Gene’s advice is clear: Don’t let anger turn to bitterness, and be ready to serve God in new ways, even when the path forward feels uncertain. This episode is a must-listen for any pastor navigating the complexities of ministry transitions. Whether you’re nearing retirement or facing an unexpected exit, Gene’s wisdom and experience can guide you through the emotional, spiritual, and practical challenges of stepping away from the pulpit. His message offers hope: there is a way to transition well, with grace and a lasting impact. Takeaways Ministry transitions can be challenging and require wisdom, humility, and proactive thinking. Succession planning should involve the development of a team of supportive individuals who can provide guidance and accountability. Pastors who are transitioning out of ministry should consider developing a second ministry career or finding ways to fill the void left by their previous role. Dealing with disappointment and anger is important for pastors who have left ministry, and seeking help and forgiveness can aid in the healing process. Having a godly and supportive board is crucial for pastors, and addressing board dynamics is essential for a healthy ministry. Support and resources are needed for pastors who are transitioning out of ministry to navigate the challenges and uncertainties of their next season. Chapters 00:00 - Ministry Transitions: Challenges and Pitfalls 02:17 - The Importance of Planning for Life After Ministry 06:07 - Navigating the Challenges of Small Church Transitions 08:49 - Understanding the High Exit Rate of Pastors from Ministry 14:51 - Gene Getz: Ministry After Ministry at 92 Years Old 17:33 - Finding Purpose and Pouring Yourself Out in Life After Ministry 22:04 - Encouragement for Those Living Life After Ministry 26:20 - Providing Support for Outgoing Ministry Leaders   Learn more about Pastoral Transitions by clicking here.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    What happens when a pastor knows it’s time to pass the baton? How do you handle transitions with grace, humility, and purpose? As we kick off this episode and a new season of Life After Ministry, we dive deep into these questions with none other than Gene Getz - a man who pastored for decades and transitioned out in a way that continues to inspire. Gene, now 92, shares his incredible journey of ministry, church planting, and leadership, revealing how he successfully handed over his thriving megachurch to the next generation. His story is one of humility, foresight, and the importance of building a strong team, emphasizing that true leadership is knowing when and how to let go. This conversation is a masterclass in succession planning and next steps - offering insights not just for pastors but for anyone leading an organization. Gene’s wisdom shines as he discusses the importance of surrounding yourself with godly people, recognizing when someone else is ready to lead, and the challenges of balancing ego with responsibility. Whether you’re a pastor facing transition or simply curious about the behind-the-scenes struggles of leadership, this episode offers hope that there is indeed life after ministry, and ministry after ministry. Takeaways Ministry can involve layered and textured conversations that leave a lasting impact. Life After Ministry aims to provide hope and encouragement to those transitioning out of ministry or facing tough seasons. Gene Getz's journey into ministry was shaped by his upbringing, his experience at Moody Bible Institute, and the influence of a supportive professor. Getz's approach to ministry involved team leadership and building a support system of godly men and their wives. Succession planning and passing the baton in ministry require humility, open communication, and a focus on the future of the organization. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Setting the Stage 02:32 - Hope and Encouragement in Life After Ministry 03:06 - Gene Getz's Journey into Ministry 06:20 - Questioning the Validity of the Church 08:18 - Team Leadership and Building a Support System 10:51 - Challenges and Temptations in Ministry 19:55 - Passing the Baton: Succession Planning

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary In this episode, Matt and Marilee Davis discuss eight things that ministry leaders need in their transition out of ministry. These include consistent community support, affirmation of personal integrity and worth, financial guidance and support, spousal and family support, professional development and coaching opportunities, legal and administrative support, access to solid Christian therapy, and spiritual direction and guidance. They emphasize the importance of these resources in navigating the challenges and growth opportunities that come with transitioning out of ministry. Takeaways Consistent community support is crucial for ministry leaders transitioning out of ministry, as it can be disorienting and lonely. Affirmation of personal integrity and worth is important, especially for men in ministry who often struggle with their identity tied to their job. Financial guidance and support are necessary, as pastors often don't qualify for unemployment and may not have significant savings. Spousal and family support and engagement are essential, as the transition affects the entire family and can lead to instability. Professional development and coaching opportunities help ministry leaders transition into new industries and utilize their skills in different contexts. Legal and administrative support is needed to navigate contractual and legal matters, especially when NDAs are involved. Access to solid Christian therapy is beneficial for emotional and spiritual health during the transition. Spiritual direction and guidance help ministry leaders discern God's leading and navigate the next season of life. Chapters 00:00 - Eight Things Ministry Leaders Need 08:30 - Financial Guidance and Support 13:14 - Spousal and Family Support 16:34 - Professional Development and Coaching 21:44 - Christian Therapy 25:04 - Spiritual Direction and Guidance

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary In this conversation, Pastor Toney Parks shares his journey from an unlikely candidate to becoming a pastor and his experiences growing up in Birmingham. He discusses the influence of Martin Luther King Jr. and the importance of community in the black church. Pastor Parks reflects on his 32 years of pastoring a church and the decision to retire. He emphasizes the need for pastors to prepare for retirement and shares his own plans for life after ministry. Takeaways The black church has played a significant role in the African American community, providing a sense of family and community. Pastors in the black community often retire later in life or die in the pulpit due to various factors such as financial constraints and fear of the unknown. Retiring from ministry requires careful planning and preparation, both financially and emotionally. There is life after ministry, and retired pastors can continue to serve and make a difference in their communities through teaching and mentoring. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Purpose of the Conference 01:40 - Unlikely Candidate to Pastor 03:07 - Encountering Jesus and Growing Up in Birmingham 07:45 - Influence of Martin Luther King Jr. 11:31 - Pastoring a Church for 32 Years 23:57 - Retiring from Ministry 29:39 - Life After Ministry 38:33 - Preparing for Retirement 46:33 - Closing Remarks

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Jon Morrison shares his journey from vocational ministry to entrepreneurship. He discusses his call to ministry, the catalyst that brought him out of ministry, and the challenges he faced during the scrambling season. Jon emphasizes the transferable skills that pastors possess and how they can be applied in the marketplace. He shares his own experiences in entrepreneurship and highlights the blessings and opportunities that come with life after ministry. Jon encourages pastors to have hope and embrace the new possibilities that await them. Takeaways There is life after vocational ministry, and it can be fulfilling and rewarding. Pastors possess transferable skills that can be applied in the marketplace. Adaptability, communication, leadership, and the ability to simplify complex ideas are valuable skills for pastors in the marketplace. Life after ministry offers opportunities for personal growth, financial stability, and the ability to pursue other passions and interests. Trusting in God's plan and providence is essential during the transition from ministry to a new career. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Recording Setup 00:29 - Background and Call to Ministry 03:06 - Catalyst for Leaving Ministry 06:09 - Lifelong Commitment to Ministry? 08:36 - Scrambling Season and Finding Work 09:18 - Discovering Entrepreneurship 12:52 - Life After Vocational Ministry 16:56 - Transferable Skills from Ministry 23:39 - God's Plan and Providence 32:54 - Is There Life After Ministry?

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Alan Ramsey shares his journey of transitioning out of vocational ministry and into a new career. He discusses the challenges and emotions he faced during this transition, as well as the support he received from his church leadership. Alan highlights the transferable skills he gained from ministry and how they apply to his current role as a corporate chaplain. He emphasizes the importance of giving oneself time to grieve and process the end of a ministry season. Alan also shares his perspective on finding hope, healing, and health in life after ministry. Takeaways Transitioning out of vocational ministry can be a challenging and emotional process. Transferable skills gained from ministry can be valuable in a new career. Giving oneself time to grieve and process the end of a ministry season is important. Finding hope, healing, and health in life after ministry is possible. Chapters 01:00 Background and Ministry Experience 04:24 Transitioning Out of Ministry 06:05 Recognizing the End of a Season 08:00 Navigating the Transition 10:51 Leaving Vocational Ministry 14:45 Day Zero and Starting a New Job 19:06 Ministry in a Different Context 23:08 Identity and Titles 25:12 Grieving and Processing the Transition 29:55 Hope, Healing, and Health 31:44 Embracing the Assignment 32:16 Conclusion

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary In this conversation, Ian and Sharalee Smith share their journey of transitioning in and out of ministry and the lessons they have learned along the way. They discuss the decision to have six children and the challenges and blessings of raising a large family. They also talk about living in the wilderness and the importance of trusting God in uncertain times. They share their experiences of stepping out in faith and the invitation to know God on a deeper level. Finally, they discuss their current work with the Hero Collective and the importance of living one day at a time. Takeaways Transitioning in and out of ministry can be a challenging and transformative experience. Trusting God in uncertain times and stepping out in faith can lead to unexpected blessings. Living in the wilderness can be a time of refinement and growth, where God invites us to know Him on a deeper level. Finding and embracing our unique identity and purpose is key to living a fulfilling life. Living one day at a time and trusting God's provision and guidance is essential in navigating an unpredictable future. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Family Background 01:01 - The Decision to Have Six Children 03:07 - Transitioning in and out of Ministry 05:19 - Lessons Learned in Ministry 14:48 - Living in the Wilderness 18:11 - Stepping Out in Faith 21:44 - Experiencing God in the Wilderness 25:50 - Longing for the Comfort of the Past 29:15 - Living with an Unpredictable God 32:56 - Life After Ministry and the Hero Collective 38:39 - Living One Day at a Time 39:26 - Conclusion

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary This conversation explores the challenges and struggles faced by pastors and their families in ministry. The guests, Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, share their personal journey of leaving ministry and finding restoration. They discuss the need for emotional growth, the systemic issues within the church, and the importance of creating a culture of vulnerability. They also highlight their work in providing a retreat center for pastors and individuals in need of healing and restoration. The conversation emphasizes the idea that there is life after ministry and that God can use individuals in various ways outside of traditional ministry roles. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 02:59 - Call into Ministry 05:07 - Struggles and Exit from Ministry 08:03 - Identity Crisis and Challenges 10:58 - The Need for Emotional Growth 11:50 - Issues with Church Leadership 17:18 - The Systemic Problem in Ministry 18:17 - Changes in Ministry Approach 25:17 - The Retreat Center and Restoration 31:30 - Creating a Culture of Vulnerability 36:39 - Finding Purpose Outside of Ministry

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Dr. Michael Shafer shares his journey of transitioning out of full-time ministry and starting G6 Allies, a ministry that supports pastors and church leaders. He discusses the challenges he faced, including being blindsided by his termination and the impact it had on his family. Despite the difficulties, he found healing and purpose in helping other pastors and their families through G6 Allies. He also shares his experience of starting G6 Church and the importance of building resilient Christian leaders. Overall, his story highlights the resilience and faithfulness of God in the midst of life's challenges. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:04 Transitioning out of Full-Time Ministry 09:23 Dealing with the Blindsiding and Anger 12:14 Starting G6 Allies 17:17 G6 Allies: Building Resilient Christian Leaders 19:19 Supporting Pastors' Wives 22:18 Starting G6 Church 25:01 Life After Ministry 28:11 Connecting with G6 Allies

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Dane Sanders shares his journey from vocational ministry to his current work with Men and Women of Discomfort. He discusses the challenges faced in vocational ministry and the need for better transitions and support within the Christian community. Dane explains the concept of Men and Women of Discomfort, a program that focuses on intentional discomfort to foster personal growth and strength. The goal is to be strong and awake for love's sake. He emphasizes the importance of community in this process and the power of suffering together. This conversation explores the power of community and authentic confession in the context of discomfort. It highlights the difference between Men and Women of Discomfort and other programs, emphasizing the focus on wholeheartedness rather than perfection. The conversation delves into the concept of the Valley of Discomfort and the temptation to return to comfort, using the story of the buffalo as a metaphor for running towards the storm. It emphasizes the importance of perspective and purpose in suffering and encourages individuals to choose to embrace discomfort and not waste the season. The conversation also discusses shifting from 'I have to' to 'I get to' and relating to discomfort as building a cathedral. Finally, it offers guidance on taking the next step and getting in touch with Men and Women of Discomfort. Takeaways Vocational ministry often comes with challenges and transitions that can be difficult to navigate. The Christian community can struggle with effectively supporting individuals going through these transitions. Men and Women of Discomfort is a program that focuses on intentional discomfort to foster personal growth and strength. The goal is to be strong and awake for love's sake, living a life that is fully engaged and aligned with one's values. Community plays a crucial role in the process of intentional discomfort and personal growth. Community and authentic confession can be a powerful source of support and growth in times of discomfort. Men and Women of Discomfort focuses on wholeheartedness rather than perfection, setting it apart from other programs. The Valley of Discomfort can be a challenging place, but it is where growth and transformation happen. Running towards discomfort, like the buffalo running towards the storm, can lead to finding the 'good stuff' and developing resilience. Having the right perspective and purpose in suffering can help individuals navigate and make the most of difficult seasons. Choosing to embrace discomfort and seeing it as an opportunity to grow and become stronger can lead to a more fulfilling life. Shifting from 'I have to' to 'I get to' can change one's mindset and attitude towards discomfort. Relating to discomfort as building a cathedral can help individuals see the value and purpose in their struggles. Taking the next step and getting in touch with Men and Women of Discomfort can provide guidance and support for those seeking to navigate discomfort. There is life after ministry and opportunities for ministry in different seasons of life. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 07:20 - Challenges in Vocational Ministry 13:08 - Transitioning and the Christian Community 17:25 - Moving Forward After Ministry 20:33 - Men and Women of Discomfort 26:38 - The Goal: Strong and Awake for Love's Sake 36:42 - The Importance of Community 44:38 - The Power of Community and Authentic Confession 45:31 - The Difference Between Men and Women of Discomfort and Other Programs 48:01 - The Valley of Discomfort and the Temptation to Return to Comfort 50:16 - The Story of the Buffalo and Running Towards the Storm 54:25 - The Importance of Perspective and Purpose in Suffering 57:02 - Choosing to Embrace Discomfort and Not Waste the Season 01:01:33 - Shifting from 'I Have to' to 'I Get to' 01:02:16 - Relating to Discomfort as Building a Cathedral 01:05:04 - Taking the Next Step and Getting in Touch 01:06:12 - Life After Ministry and Ministry After Ministry

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary In this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, titled "Ministry In The Military," we explore a path that many pastors might not have considered: becoming a military chaplain. Our guest, Chaplain Jordan Huggins, shares his firsthand experience serving in both the US Air Force and Space Force. For pastors wrestling with "what's next?" Jordan's journey offers a compelling glimpse into a role where ministry skills are not just useful but vital. Serving as a military chaplain brings unique challenges but also profound opportunities to support service members and their families through spiritual guidance and pastoral care. Jordan talks about what it takes to step into this role, the kind of impact you can expect to have, and why it's been fulfilling for him. If you're at a crossroads in your ministry career, curious about military chaplaincy, or simply seeking a new avenue where your pastoral skills can make a difference, this conversation is for you. It's a straightforward look at an option that could be your next calling—a chance to serve those who serve. Chaplain Jordan Huggins shares his journey from military to ministry and back to the military as a chaplain. He discusses the challenges and rewards of ministering to airmen and guardians, providing counseling and support in various situations. Chaplain Huggins also explains the process of becoming a military chaplain and offers guidance for those interested in pursuing this path. He emphasizes the importance of ministry beyond the walls of the church and the privilege of being with people on their worst days. Takeaways Transitioning from military to ministry and back to the military as a chaplain is a unique and fulfilling path. Chaplains play a crucial role in providing counseling and support to military personnel, addressing their spiritual and emotional needs. Becoming a military chaplain requires an MDiv degree or a master's degree in theology, religious studies, and endorsement from a denomination or faith group. The process of joining as a chaplain takes about four to six months and involves a thorough evaluation of qualifications and physical fitness. Ministry after ministry extends beyond the walls of the church and involves being present with people in their most challenging moments. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:28 - Transition from Military to Ministry 03:11 - Existential Crisis and Return to Faith 04:10 - Ministry Life and Experience 05:27 - Return to Military as a Chaplain 07:18 - Needs of Airmen and Guardians 08:43 - Counseling and Support for Military Personnel 10:04 - Becoming a Military Chaplain 13:10 - Process of Joining as a Chaplain 14:22 - Next Steps for Those Interested 15:17 - Ministry After Ministry 17:10 - Closing Remarks

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Dr. Dee Dee Mayer discusses the importance of board governance within the church and the need for training and support for governing boards. She shares her research on the role of elder boards in supporting wellness in pastoral leadership and the challenges they face. Dr. Mayer emphasizes the importance of selecting board members based on spiritual maturity and creating a culture of accountability and healthy conflict resolution. She provides nine essential conversations for governing boards to have, including defining culture, guiding principles for recruitment, and managing difficult leaders. Dr. Mayer highlights the need for proactive leadership to prevent church hurt and create a space for healing. Takeaways Board governance is crucial for supporting wellness in pastoral leadership and preventing leadership failure within the church. Elder boards often lack training and preparation, leading to a disconnect between the board and the pastors they serve. Selecting board members based on spiritual maturity and wisdom is essential for effective governance. Creating a culture of accountability, healthy conflict resolution, and proactive leadership is necessary for preventing church hurt and promoting healing. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:00 - Heartbreak over Leadership Failure 02:23 - The Role of Governing Boards 03:17 - Lack of Training for Elder Boards 04:35 - The Need for a System 06:16 - Selecting Board Members Based on Spiritual Maturity 07:11 - Balancing Success and Spiritual Qualifications 08:21 - Creating Healthy Ways to Navigate Conflict 10:19 - Essential Conversations for Governing Boards 13:47 - Structuring Roles and Responsibilities 15:16 - Maintaining Healthy Leadership 16:44 - Taking Care of Pastors and Their Families 17:26 - Creating Systems of Accountability 18:16 - Navigating Concerns and Allegations 19:06 - Managing Difficult Leaders 21:39 - Reactivity vs Proactivity in Elder Boards 23:08 - The Responsibility of Holding the Church 26:43 - Preventing Church Hurt 28:35 - Focusing on the Culture and System

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary It’s the reason we started the Life After Ministry podcast: the distressing experiences of leadership figures within the ministry who've faced the severe blow of unjust terminations or forced resignations. Join us as we explore this crucial topic with Dr. Matthew Tanner, founder of Wounded Leadership, an organization committed to offering restoration and healing for these traumatized leaders. Starting from his personal experiences, Dr. Tanner equates the transformative journey of these leaders with the smelting process of metal: uncomfortable yet crucial for ultimately achieving fortitude and resilience. Emphasizing the importance of community support during this healing period, he not only confronts the issue of wounded leaders but strategizes preemptive measures to avoid such incidents. Unveiling a structured four-step healing plan, Dr. Tanner discusses how such challenging experiences can lead to self-growth, reinforcing the necessity for self-care and constructing a stronger, more humble leader. Drawing from biblical instances, he provides comforting assurance that even revered religious figures have undergone similar struggles. The conversation underlines the role of the church in supporting pastors during their leaving process and subsequently, its responsibility in providing substantial severance and counseling services. Dr. Tanner provides a comprehensive guide to managing forced resignations and unjustified terminations. Dr. Tanner also introduces his book "The Wounded Pastor," along with details about an upcoming conference designed to aid pastors in dealing with challenging pastoral transitions. This episode is essential for anyone going through hard times within the ministry or facing their exit from it. Healing is on the horizon. Takeaways Unjustified terminations of pastors are a significant problem in evangelical denominations, affecting tens of thousands of pastors each year. Pastors who have been forced out of ministry often face isolation and struggle to find support networks. Healing from the wounds of termination involves economic, emotional, spiritual, and leadership development processes. Churches should handle terminations with generosity and care, providing severance, counseling, and assistance in finding the next step. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:02 - Personal Experience and Writing the Book 03:14 - Challenges and Questions in Ministry 05:37 - Extent of the Problem 07:05 - Isolation and the Need for Support 08:25 - Diversifying Relationships and Support Systems 09:23 - Balancing Personal and Church Relationships 11:45 - Transitioning from Pastor to Churchgoer 13:48 - Overcoming the Pastoral Mindset 14:46 - The Healing Journey for Wounded Pastors 19:51 - The Process of Termination and Wounding 22:23 - The Importance of Generosity and Care in Termination 26:18 - Promoting Healing through the Book and Conference 30:47 - Collaboration and Support for Wounded Pastors

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary In this episode of the "Life After Ministry" podcast, Dillon Fawcett candidly shares his unique journey, transitioning from pastoral ministry and his entry point into the world of mental health counseling. With honesty and vulnerability, Dillon opens up about the ups and downs he experienced, the transitions that challenged him, and the invaluable lessons he's learned. His story is a powerful testament to the truth that life doesn't end after ministry – in fact, it can take on new, meaningful forms. Dillon's insights remind us that our pain and struggles are not in vain - they're instruments used by God to shape and refine us. Takeaways Post-Ministry Life: Transitioning out of ministry is challenging, yet it opens the door to new beginnings and avenues of purpose. Transformative Pain: Our struggles and pain can be the very experiences that catalyze personal growth and transformation. God's Refinement: God is intimately involved in our lives, using our challenges to refine our hearts and align us with His purpose. Ministry in Many Forms: Ministry isn't confined to the pulpit – avenues like counseling can be just as impactful in serving and guiding others. Joy and Trust in God: Finding joy and purpose in life's next chapter hinges on gratitude and a deep trust in God's overarching plan. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Dillon's Background 03:01 - Exploring Woodworking and Business Ventures 07:24 - Reflections on Pastoral Ministry 10:46 - The Emotional Landscape of Transitioning Out of Ministry 15:13 - Discovering Life and Purpose After Ministry 19:56 - Wilderness Lessons: Growth Amidst Challenges 22:44 - Supporting Others Facing Similar Transitions 26:06 - Unearthing Joy and Purpose in New Paths 29:20 - Continuing the Ministry Journey through Counseling 30:35 - Upcoming Projects and Podcast Plans 31:08 - Conclusion: Embracing the Journey Ahead

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary This conversation explores the experiences of Brian James and Michelle McMahon as they transitioned out of vocational ministry and created safe spaces for pastors and church leaders. They discuss the challenges of being in ministry, the importance of vulnerability and authenticity, and the need for safe and supportive communities. The conversation also touches on the role of female pastors and the redefinition of church. Overall, the discussion highlights the importance of cultivating trust and creating spaces where pastors can be brave and find healing. They discuss the importance of connection and how Church Well Co helps pastors and ministers overcome isolation and the concept of bravery and how it can foster safety and support within communities. Takeaways Transitions out of vocational ministry can be challenging and painful, but they can also lead to new opportunities for growth and healing. Creating safe spaces for pastors and church leaders is crucial for their well-being and the health of the church community. Vulnerability and authenticity are essential in building trust and deepening relationships. The role of female pastors in the church is important and should be valued and supported. Church Well Co offers virtual groups and communities for pastors and ministers to overcome isolation. Isolation is not limited to geographical boundaries, and Church Well Co also supports missionaries around the world. Engaging bravely with others can create a sense of safety and trust. Taking small steps of bravery can lead to meaningful connections and support. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:32 - Entering Ministry 03:07 - Transitions and Changes 04:17 - Personal Transitions Out of Ministry 07:03 - Creating Safe Spaces 10:49 - The Role of Female Pastors 12:19 - Redefining Church 14:27 - Creating Safe Spaces in the Church 20:13 - Life After Vocational Ministry 26:58 - Finding Purpose and Relevance 31:19 - Creating Safe Spaces for Pastors 36:20 - Cultivating Safety and Trust 42:17 - Hope for Those Longing for Authentic Relationships 45:57 - Connecting with Church Well Co 46:16 - Virtual Groups and Isolation 47:40 - Engaging Bravely

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary In this episode, Matt Davis interviews J. Ricardo Smith at the Classic City Conference in Athens, Georgia. They discuss the purpose and origins of the conference, the state of the black church post-COVID, the challenges of identity and transition in ministry, finding hope and help in difficult seasons, planning for the future of the conference, and the importance of mental health in ministry. J. Ricardo Smith shares his insights and experiences, emphasizing the need for community and support in pastoral leadership. Takeaways The Classic City Conference was created to provide resources and solutions for small to mid-sized church pastors. The COVID-19 pandemic had both positive and negative impacts on the black church, highlighting the need for shared leadership and addressing issues of identity and worth. Pastors need to recognize their value and worth outside of their role as a senior pastor and be open to transitions and new seasons in ministry. Finding hope and help in difficult seasons of ministry requires community, support, and access to resources like counseling and therapy. The Classic City Conference aims to offer ongoing support and resources beyond the annual event, helping pastors navigate the challenges of ministry. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction to the Classic City Conference 04:04 - The State of the Black Church 08:23 - Identity and Transition in Ministry 10:12 - Finding Hope and Help in Ministry 12:02 - Planning for the Future of the Conference 14:19 - The Importance of Mental Health in Ministry 17:07 - Connecting with J. Ricardo Smith and Classic City Conference

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Kyle and Maria Isabelli share their experience of being fired from their church ministry and the emotional impact it had on them. They discuss the process of being let go, the loss they felt, and the journey of healing and finding purpose again. Kyle wrote a book titled 'Refined by the Fired' to help others who have gone through similar experiences. They emphasize the importance of clear expectations and communication in ministry and the need for empathy and shepherding in leadership roles. Despite the challenges, they remain committed to ministry and continue to serve in their new roles. Takeaways Being fired from a church ministry can be a deeply emotional and challenging experience, resulting in a sense of loss and grief. Clear expectations and communication are crucial in ministry to avoid misunderstandings and conflicts. Going through the process of being fired can lead to personal growth, empathy, and a deeper understanding of the needs of staff and ministry workers. Finding purpose and healing after being fired requires reflection, processing pain, and relying on God's guidance and direction. Chapters 00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:00 - Transition into Ministry 03:44 - The Call to Ministry 05:40 - Transition Out of Ministry 07:49 - The Process of Being Let Go 09:49 - Emotional Impact and Loss 12:09 - Reflecting on the Experience 14:53 - Writing the Book 25:29 - Continuing in Ministry 30:13 - Book Release and Conclusion

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary As we wrap up an incredible first season of the "Life After Ministry" podcast, join us, Matt and Marilee Davis, in reflecting on the profound insights and heartwarming stories we've encountered. This journey hasn't just been about sharing stories - it's been a path of personal growth and unexpected joy for us too. Here are some pivotal takeaways that have resonated not just with our listeners, but deeply within our own lives: Embracing the Darkness in Transitions: One of the most powerful themes this season has been about leaning into the challenging emotions that accompany pastoral transitions. It's in acknowledging and embracing this darkness that many find transformation and growth. The Wilderness Season: We've talked about this being a necessary phase. It's in these moments of seeming solitude that reliance on God becomes paramount and where profound spiritual growth occurs. Surrender and Trust: The act of letting go and trusting in God's plan, though scary, is a crucial step in navigating these transitions. Paying it Forward: Our guests have shared how their experiences have equipped them to serve others in their new ministries, turning their challenges into opportunities for giving back. Breaking Isolation: Through sharing their stories, our guests have brought light to the often-isolated path that many pastors walk during transitions, offering hope and a sense of community. Endurance and Support: The journey through pastoral transition is not a sprint but a marathon, requiring endurance, patience, and a strong support system. Church's Role in Transition: We looked into the responsibility of churches to provide more than just spiritual guidance during these times but also companionship, direction, and practical help. Honoring Dignity in Transition: Exiting ministry roles can be filled with challenges, but there are compassionate ways to honor people's dignity throughout the process. Gratitude and Encouragement: Lastly, the importance of expressing gratitude and encouragement to pastors and church leaders cannot be overstated. It's crucial in building a supportive and understanding community. We've learned so much and have been deeply moved by the stories of resilience and faith. Thank you for joining us on this path. As we look forward to Season Two, let's continue to support and uplift each other, remembering that every transition can lead to a beautiful new beginning. You can support Pastors in transition by making a donation here.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Clayton Stenson shares his journey of transitioning from ministry to a new career and finding hope and purpose in life after ministry. He discusses his background in ministry, the challenges he faced, and the support he received during a difficult time of grief and loss. Clayton also highlights the transferable skills he gained from his ministry experience and how they have helped him succeed in his current role. He encourages others who are going through similar transitions to seek support and embrace new opportunities. Takeaways Transitioning from ministry to a new career can be challenging but also rewarding. Grief and loss can have a significant impact on one's life and ministry. Transferable skills gained from ministry, such as leadership, vision casting, and building systems, can be valuable in other professions. Finding support and community during times of transition is crucial for healing and growth. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:37 Entering Ministry 08:25 Leaving Ministry 12:11 Transitioning to a New Career 18:11 Transferable Skills from Ministry 21:30 Identity and Perspective 23:42 Encouragement and Hope 24:31 Reaching Out for Support 25:23 Conclusion Clayton Stenson is an innovator in the business coaching space. He is a former Pastor who made the shift to the marketplace 8 years ago. An operations expert, Clayton works with faith-driven construction and trades companies with $5-15 million in revenue that have hit a ceiling. He comes alongside the visionary owner and their leadership team to help them make their vision a reality. Often these visionaries are frustrated, tired, and are feeling discouraged that their business may never be able to run without them. They usually have made some progress toward this goal, but they need some help to get over the hump. Clayton helps them either through coaching or through fractional services. Clayton has also developed a powerful program to help visionaries and their second-in-commands find unity and leverage their opposite skill sets to develop the company that they dream of. The two of them have an incredible opportunity to work together, but because they are so different, they can have a hard time getting and staying on the same page. Clayton's Unity Rock Program is proven to get the most out of their Visionary/Second-in-Command relationship. Connect with Clayton at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/theunityguide/

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary Tom Dyke shares his journey from ministry to starting his own business. He discusses his background in Manitoba, Canada, and his various roles in ministry, including being a youth pastor and overseeing family ministries. Tom initiated his departure from ministry due to challenges within the church and found a new calling in marketing and storytelling. He shares his financial success in his new business and challenges the poverty mindset often associated with pastors. Tom emphasizes the importance of family and creating lasting memories, and how his relationship with money has evolved. He also discusses how his pastoral skills continue to impact his interactions in the business world. Takeaways There is life after ministry, and it can be fulfilling and successful. Transitioning from ministry to a new career or business requires adaptability and a willingness to learn new skills. Having a healthy relationship with money is important, and pastors should not feel guilty about financial success. Identifying and pursuing one's true calling and purpose can provide a sense of fulfillment and guide career decisions. Pastoral skills, such as building relationships and listening, can be valuable in various professional settings. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:11 Living in Manitoba, Canada 02:11 Roles in Ministry 04:33 Last Day in Ministry 08:47 Transition to Business 12:30 Financial Perspective and Relationship with Money 16:09 Calling and Purpose 20:01 Life After Ministry and Creating Memories 22:32 Incorporating Pastoral Skills in Business 27:01 Conclusion: Life After Ministry is Good Thom Van Dycke fractional Chief Growth Officer for solopreneurs. After 19 years as a pastor, he launched his business at the height of the pandemic in 2020 and grew it to six figures in the first year. He believes that to truly engage with our ideal audience we need to leverage the power of storytelling. Thom is married to Tara and they have 7 children. They are both advocates for foster and adoption and have welcomed 30 foster children into their home since 2011. Connect with Thom at: www.thomvandycke.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thom-van-dycke/ StoryBrand: https://marketingmadesimple.com/ThomVanDycke

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Summary: In this episode, Pastor Dan Broyles discusses the challenges pastors face when seeking counseling and the importance of grieving their own losses. He also highlights the need for pastors to connect with others outside their church community and provides hope for those in times of transition. Our guest, Dan Broyles, wears two significant hats – that of a Care Pastor and a licensed Christian therapist. Known for his profound ability to offer solace, Dan is the go-to person for pastors across the region seeking guidance and support. In this episode, we dive into a less-discussed aspect of pastoral life: the accumulation of losses that ministry leaders endure. From the emotional weight of their congregants' struggles to their own personal challenges, pastors carry a heavy load. Dan emphasizes the crucial yet often neglected practice of grieving one's own losses. He explains the importance of acknowledging and processing these experiences, not just for the health of the pastor but for the well-being of their ministry. Dan's insights shed light on why self-care isn't just advisable for pastors – it's essential. He discusses why counseling isn’t just for their congregation but is a vital resource for pastors themselves. With his unique perspective as both a pastor and a therapist, Dan offers invaluable advice on navigating the emotional toll of ministry while maintaining personal and spiritual health. To learn more about Dan Broyles' work and access resources for pastoral care, visit SagaCenter.org and Valencia Hills Community Church located about an hour north of downtown Los Angeles. Takeaways: Pastors often struggle to seek counseling within their own church community due to fear of judgment or misunderstanding. Grieving one's own losses is an essential part of the pastoral journey, but many pastors neglect this process. Pastors can find support and understanding by connecting with other pastors who have experienced similar challenges. It is important for pastors to prioritize their own needs and seek connections outside their church community. Chapters 00:00 - Seeking Counseling in the Church 03:07 - The Role of a Pastor and Therapist 05:26 - Experiencing a Transition in Ministry 07:51 - The Difficulty of Grieving in Ministry 10:44 - Pastors Seeking Help from Other Pastors 13:04 - Providing Hope in Times of Transition 15:30 - The Loyalty Issue in Pastoral Transitions 17:25 - The Importance of Connecting Outside the Church 19:18 - Closing Remarks

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In this conversation, Jon Sanders shares his journey from being a pastor to transitioning into a new season of ministry. He discusses the calling that led him into ministry and the challenges he faced along the way. Jon also explores the concept of bi-vocational ministry and the role of entrepreneurs in the church. He encourages pastors to embrace their unique gifts and explore new opportunities outside of traditional ministry. The conversation highlights the importance of finding a new path and offers guidance on how to navigate the transition process.   Takeaways Embrace your unique calling and gifts in ministry. Consider the possibilities of bivocational ministry. Explore entrepreneurial opportunities in the marketplace. Find a new path that aligns with your passions and skills. Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Calling into Ministry 03:00 Transitioning Out of Ministry 10:12 The Role of Entrepreneurs in Ministry 17:10 Bivocational Ministry and Ministry After Ministry 23:12 Finding a New Path and Onboarding Process 29:41 Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Validating Ideas

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, we tackle a critical issue that often serves as a catalyst for pastoral transitions: burnout. While our mission at Pastoral Transitions is to support ministry leaders in their journey out of ministry, we're equally passionate about preventing burnout to keep our church leaders healthy, strong, and vibrant. Joining us is Jonathan Malm, co-author of "Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright," a book offering practical wisdom on avoiding the pitfalls that lead many in ministry to prematurely press the eject button. Jonathan's insights are not just theories - they are lifelines drawn from his experience and deep understanding of the unique pressures faced by those in ministry. Burnout is more than just a buzzword - it's a reality that can deeply impact one’s spiritual, emotional, and physical well-being. Jonathan's approach to tackling this issue is both proactive and empowering. His book has strategies and principles that can transform the way pastors approach their calling, ensuring they can serve with longevity and joy. Discover more about Jonathan and his impactful work at Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright. His insights extend beyond the pages of his book, as he continues to inspire and educate through his engaging Instagram account. Follow him at @jonathanmalm for a regular dose of humor, encouragement, and practical advice. This episode is an essential listen for anyone in ministry seeking to navigate the demanding landscape of pastoral work without losing their spark. Let's dive into how we can keep our ministry leaders burning bright, not burning out.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/.  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In "Facing And Forgiving Those Who Hurt You," the ninth episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, we’re invited into the world of Ryan and Lindsay Gentles. It's a tale of closing a decade-long chapter in ministry, of navigating farewells that feel more like eulogies than celebrations, and the struggle to exit gracefully without the dramatics of a "Jerry Maguire" moment. What unfolds when silence is imposed, and the grief of leaving is a burden carried alone? How does a family find its way through the maze of loss, especially when young children are part of the equation, grappling with the concept of joblessness and churchlessness? This episode touches the raw nerves of bitterness and isolation, but also of healing and forgiveness. It's about the courage to face those who've hurt you, the unexpected release found in forgiveness, and the profound wisdom earned through life's toughest battles. And amidst the turbulence, we hear of Ryan's creative spirit, giving birth to his book published this year, "Did Jesus Wear Undies?" — answering questions his young children would ask and throwing a theological life raft to parents drowning in the curiosity of kids trying to figure it all out.  Join us for an episode filled with raw emotion, hard-won wisdom, and the kind of deep, soulful wrestle that reshapes lives. We love Ryan and Lindsay Gentles and think you will too! Find Ryan at ryangentles.com and Lindsay at True North. Buy the book, "Did Jesus Wear Undies?" here.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In Episode 8, we sit down with Gary Weaber, who poured his heart into pastoral ministry for over three and a half decades. Imagine, after 36 dedicated years, facing a conversation with your elders about stepping down from your teaching role. Most pastors dread this talk, fearing miscommunication, hurt, and the potential fallout that could affect the congregation. Yet, Gary's story shines a different light. Instead of walking away with wounds, he left that meeting feeling uplifted, rating the experience an impressive 11 out of 10. So, what was their secret? Gary shares the foundation of trust, open communication, and mutual respect they had nurtured over the years. It's a testament to what's possible when leaders prioritize relationships and unity. Now, as he embraces a new chapter with Stand Stone Ministry, Gary's journey offers invaluable insights for church elders and pastors approaching similar crossroads. Dive in and discover the keys to navigating these pivotal transitions with grace, understanding, and a shared vision.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/.  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Just mentioning "church hurt" will hit home for many of you. It’s baffling. The very place we'd expect to find solace and healing often turns out to be a source of deep wounds. If this resonates with you, you're not alone, and this episode is a must-listen. Our guest, Shane McDonald, a licensed mental health counselor and former pastor, knows all too well what it's like to transition from serving in a ministry to a therapeutic setting. When he shared that a staggering 90% of his clients are dealing with some form of "church hurt," it was a wake-up call we couldn't ignore. But here's where Shane left us hanging on every word: He draws a fine line between "hurt" and "injury," and that got us seriously pondering. It's not just about acknowledging the pain, it's about understanding its depth and impact on our spiritual and emotional health. So, whether you've personally felt the sting of "church hurt" or you know someone who has, tune in to this intimate and insightful episode. Shane McDonald doesn't just expose the problem; he offers the kind of wisdom that can spark healing. To learn more about the work and continued life after ministry of Shane McDonald, click here.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    We sat down with Justin and Amanda McNeil at the American Association of Christian Counselors conference, and their story is nothing short of compelling. What sets their story apart is its testament to the notion that transitions out of vocational ministry don't have to be filled with negativity or go horribly wrong. In fact, their journey illustrates that even the most complex shifts can be navigated with grace, hope, and what they call "brutiful" resilience. Justin and Amanda take us on a ride from their earliest days meeting in kids' church to their committed years serving as pastors, and onto a new, unexpected chapter as therapists. This episode peels back the layers on what it means to transition well, offering both the challenges and rewards that come with embracing change. You'll hear not just about the difficulties, but also the beautiful moments of discovery, transformation, and renewed purpose that can exist in life after ministry. Don't miss this episode if you're interested in understanding how transitions can be thoughtfully navigated, how a new calling can emerge from the old, and how the spirit of service can flourish outside traditional church settings. Justin and Amanda's compelling story serves as a beacon of light, demonstrating that there is not only life after ministry but also meaningful work that continues to fulfill a divine purpose. To learn more about the work and continued life after ministry of Justin and Amanda McNeil, click here.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In Episode 5, "Pain Is A Teacher," we sit down with the inspiring couple, Gary & Lisa Black, to discuss the transformative power of enduring life's toughest transitions. From losing a spouse and a child to navigating numerous shifts in ministry, Gary and Lisa have amassed a wealth of wisdom that they generously share in this episode. Their story is a testament to the resilience of faith and the lessons that can only be learned through pain. Get your pen and paper ready—you won't want to miss the invaluable insights from this power couple. Learn more about Gary & Lisa at garyandlisablack.com and mandate456.org. You can also purchase a signed copy of Lisa’s book: All The Sacred Things here.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    Episode 4 of the Life After Ministry Podcast is a replay of a conversation Matt Davis had on Josh Harris's podcast, "Clear and Loud." Entitled "The Holy Mess of Pastoral Transitions," this episode dives deep into the complexities that come with leaving a role in ministry. With over two decades of experience as a Teaching and Executive Pastor, Matt shares the hard lessons learned during his own exit from pastoral service. The episode answers crucial questions like: Why are pastoral transitions uniquely painful? How does a shift in roles impact one's family? And why do so many pastors feel the need to leave their church community altogether? Through this talk, we hope that you find healing, whatever or wherever you journey finds you today.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk    In Episode 3 of the Life After Ministry Podcast, we talk to Noe Rivera, a key member of the founding team behind Pastoral Transitions. Growing up as a pastor's kid, Noe intimately understands the emotional toll that ministry transitions can take on families. Titled "Mental Health After Ministry," this episode dives into Noe's missionary years and the shifts that followed, laying the groundwork for his current role as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT). Noe specializes in aiding individuals exiting vocational ministry, guiding them toward heart clarity and helping them attune to God's voice. Don't miss this episode full of hard-earned wisdom and spiritual insights.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/   To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  In Episode 2 of the Life After Ministry Podcast, we sit down with Bill Tom, Founder, CEO, and Chief Ministry Officer of Pastoral Transitions. With a rich background in career coaching and executive search, Bill offers priceless advice on vocational discernment for those exiting ministry roles. The episode, aptly titled "How To Figure Out Your Career After Ministry," provides a roadmap for navigating life's next chapter. Bill also reveals the recurring theme he encountered in his office that was the catalyst for creating Pastoral Transitions. Tune in for profound insights that could be your first steps toward a fulfilling second act.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/.  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  In the inaugural episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, hosts Matt and Marilee Davis open up about their own journey post-ministry.  With vulnerability, they discuss the challenges and opportunities they encountered as they transitioned into a new career, community, and even way of life.  The episode digs into the complexities of untangling emotional and spiritual intricacies that come with leaving a ministry role.  Whether you're a pastor contemplating a career change, or a leader helping someone through this significant life transition, this episode offers invaluable insights on navigating the journey with wisdom and grace.  Don't miss this heartfelt and informative debut.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Change is inevitable, especially in our careers. For those who have devoted their lives to the profound call of ministry, transitioning away can seem not just like a change of job, but a seismic shift in identity and purpose. But it's essential to remember: transitions in ministry can also be immensely positive and lead to vibrant new beginnings. And while there are undoubted challenges and heartaches, there's also hope, rejuvenation, and tales of transitions that have unfolded beautifully. 'Life After Ministry' dives into this intricate and often overlooked journey. Hosts Matt and Marilee Davis, who've weathered the complexities of this change themselves, open up about their experiences and introduce listeners to others who've walked the same path. Their stories range from those of struggle and rediscovery to those where transitions were embraced with joy and anticipation. And don't worry, this isn’t a space for bitterness or blame. Matt and Marilee firmly believe in the beauty and purpose of the church. While they address the challenges faced by those leaving ministry roles, they do so with an unwavering faith that, in the end, Jesus loves His church, and she will emerge splendid and radiant. If you've ever felt the tremors of significant life change or understand the profound journey of starting anew, 'Life After Ministry' is your companion in understanding, healing, and hope. This isn't just a podcast; it's a heartfelt invitation into a community that knows, understands, and walks with you.