Anthony ‘Nippy’ Ames - Former Ivy League Quarterback, Actor, and Podcast Host.

 I figured out pretty quickly there's no way you're going to get people to put sashes on
 bow down to a vanguard and and do these rules and rituals and I just said this I'm out.
 I felt like incompetent people were in charge of things that they shouldn't be
 qualified with when we did get competent people say with Harvard business degrees or stuff like
 that they were ghastlet in the thinking that's a traditional way that doesn't work we like to
 work with the person you're all about results just like that went on all the time. The first
 thing you do the first thing I did is I just you got to get out of the clutches up physically
 out of out of any sort of range so you can recoup you can strategize I would find people that are
 doing what you want to do at the highest level and figure out what they do you know in terms of
 and pursue your listening to the radcast if it's radical we cover it here's your host Ryan
 offered hey guys what's up welcome to the latest edition of the radcast I'm Ryan offered your host
 and we've got a pretty radical topic here today I'm excited about this to kind of go down
 different angles but I'm also just excited for everyone to hear if you haven't heard this story
 I've got Anthony Ames joining the podcast today Anthony welcome to the show thanks for having me
 hey man actor you've probably seen Anthony some of his work podcast host a little bit Coltie
 which hey is a little bit of a tease into into our discussion today I gotta we leave much off
 the table there yeah that's on the nose I know former Ivy League quarterback even you know
 I you're the first former collegiate quarterback we've had on the radcast so you can hold that
 and maybe the first member a ex member of a cult so a lot of firsts on this one that's great
 I know Anthony let's just start I know we'll get into you know some of your work now and and I do
 want to talk about Nexium and the cult stuff obviously but let's do for everybody listening you
 know just the the normal background and you know kind of your you know your acting career and all
 those kind of things and just kind of set the table for ultimately where things went maybe a
 little south but yeah so yeah I am originally from your neck of the woods Atlanta Georgia
 one of four boys and a little girl a little sister and I don't know I guess you know in terms of
 you know how I got involved I think is where I'll fast forward to with what we're calling Nexium
 but it really wasn't actually Nexium when I first joined it it was called executive success
 so it was more of like a coursework and eventually grew into that so I was in after college I
 went home to Atlanta for about eight months and I went to the regional NFL combine
 to try out and just kind of see where I stacked up and after that I moved to New York and probably
 June of 99 and I started taking acting classes and I started auditioning a little bit and then I
 was at a party probably sometime in 2000 and I ran into an old high school girlfriend of mine
 that was still kind of interested in and but you know time had passed and we stayed in touch and
 she was originally from Albany New York which is where Nexium headquarters were and really the
 whole entire curriculum or whatever you want to call it cult I'll just call it cult stick to that
 started and she had told me about this program and it sounded weird from the get and I actually
 said to her I don't think I'm gonna do your cult and kind of jokingly I didn't really think it
 was a cult they just sounded weird and she you know you know time went on she stayed on me
 about it because she knew me like when we dated I had like I had books on John F. Kennedy I had
 books on you know Troy Ackman John LA all the people that you know I looked up to and wanted to
 aspire to be like everyone's got mentors when they're when they're young or you know when you
 when you want to go do something you see who's doing what you want to do at a high level and you
 check it out so I was always you know into stuff like that and she knew that and she basically said
 look this is a program that helps people with that and where they're a limited she's like you're
 not limited anywhere but emotionally and those were all things that had me nodding and saying yes
 also with someone I trusted I had known since I was you know 15 years old night and known her
 family since I was 15 years old and I think what really got me one time is I had just finished
 like an independent film and every time I did kind of a project or something like that I would go
 take kind of a vacation see a friend somewhere and she's like what are you gonna do just go party
 for a week instead of work on yourself and on I kind of was like you know what she's fucking right
 I am gonna do that so she kind of not I wouldn't say manipulated but I would say she knew my
 values and she knew it was important to me and she kind of presented that to me in a moment of like
 you know she held me hostage to it a little bit and there was one other factor too is that she had
 told me her dad had done it and I always respected her dad her dad's brain surgeon he played football
 at Yale and it was kind of someone that I felt like if he had done it you know how bad could it be
 and so I took you know what was a lot of money for me at the time to 2000 dollars 2160
 dollars I think it was was and I went up to Albany New York and took a five day training in June
 of 2001 and I was kind of the arms folded guy at first you know really wasn't gonna let myself be
 drawn into it it was weird from the get but finally after like two or three days it got into some
 practical stuff practical stuff that I'm sure a guy like you or you know anyone that's you know
 wants to perform and introspective and wants to problem solve their own lives could could use and
 I've since found a lot of that stuff was stolen ripped off and I've actually found the actual
 places where it was ripped off there's a book I read called power versus force it's by David Hawkins
 not to be confused with David Hawking's and amazing book and literally I mean down to the metaphors
 and the examples in the book were in the curriculum three three times three like literal like
 examples and I'm reading that going fuck me I could have read this book 20 years ago it would have
 seemed a lot a lot of hassle um so I finished the five day I had a really really good experience by
 the end and that's kind of how they set it up right you you leave you have you know I'm 26 27 at
 the time I haven't done cognitive behavioral work I haven't done this so it's very new to me
 right and it's not in our traditional education systems and in terms of self awareness and
 and things that were getting me to think differently it was very very positive um
 but just just was just like the the form of you see all the the you know before it was the
 raise and for social media but now it's all life coaching and all that yeah it's just life
 coaching on story steroids yes yes and and in other aspects of it too that were interesting you
 would go into breakout groups and you would get multiple perspectives from different people which
 I found very very helpful also you know and some of them you know there are people there that were
 you know the range of people from like a brain surgeon to like an 18 year old kid who wanted to
 be a better wrestler in his high school team so it felt very positive and those are the things
 that I'm really sensitive to like I you have to really discipline your mind to get negative
 emotions out of it and you have to be self aware to do that and that was just some of the things
 that I always try to get out of my psychology and understand the origin of which I think is
 helpful for anyone you know if you want to be successful and I come from an atmosphere in my
 household where there was a lot of I wouldn't say negative reinforcement but I'll give you an
 example of of something that happened to me when this is the Olympics wearing Atlanta in 1996
 and I can remember one night my brothers and I were out to like probably five in the morning
 and you know I come home my dad's there he comes into my room around seven opens the door and goes
 Troy Ackman's not sleeping and would lie and leave out the room right so it was that kind of like
 enforcement and reminder of our goals and look it works to a certain extent you know you read about
 coaches some kids need a pat on the ass some kids need to be yelled at I got a little bit of both
 I'm I'm pretty sensitive and I found that understanding the origin of that of how I beat myself
 up to achieve things was one of the things I got out of the first five day and I felt
 evolving that was a very positive thing for my psychology and I really developed the self-awareness
 to go I don't need to do the negative reinforcement I can frame it in a positive way
 so just having something like that almost felt like that was worth you know price of admittance
 who knows if I could have read a book or done something else on the own at the time but what
 for whatever reason this is how I evolve that and so I was pretty content with what I got there
 and wasn't really interested in going forward but my ex-girlfriend was pretty convincing at the time
 she's like you know come finish the 11 days and I did in August of 2001 was this like friends
 with benefits or is this like you know that's what I was hoping so there was two reasons I was there
 right I was kind of hoping that I could get back together with her um but you know and and you
 know a lot of piece case by case as to why people would do that but I was still interested in her
 and part of why I was doing it was for her and part of it was like oh this is actually some good
 stuff so it was a combination of things you know um you know some people you know as the organization
 grew we're doing intro events for people like come do you and it got a little salesy which I was
 never really comfortable with um I was more of like yeah that's just if that felt icky um so
 anyway that's that's 2001 kind of right before 9-11 and I decide um because they really wanted
 people in hindsight I recognized what they were doing is they just wanted coaches and then
 coaches would staff the trainings and they told me you can become a coach and you get to staff
 the trainings and shadow and do the trainings for free like I can be in there staff you know do coffee
 whatever and whatever and then they started running them in New York City so I was in New York City
 and the only way I could take their curriculum was take a three-hour bus ride to Albany, New York
 and then they started setting one up in New York City so for me it was kind of an easy thing of okay
 I can still audition be in New York have both these things I actually was sitting down budgeting
 stuff like I figured out I went out once or twice a week I would spend at least $300 you know going
 out doing things that weren't towards my goals to be involved with ongoing curriculum $300 a month
 it just felt like I cut that out of my life and I invest it that was it was a no brainer for me
 practical um and so I'm involved as a coach for probably about another year and a half
 and then it just dawns on me um because the only place you could take it was it was Albany like
 intensive and you could do the weekly classes in New York and it just wasn't a well-willed machine
 and I figured out pretty quickly there's no way you're going to get people to put sashes on
 bow down to a vanguard and and do these rules and rituals and I just said fuck this I'm out
 but I wasn't I wasn't overt with it I was like cool you guys have something good I'd send a
 friend or two there under uh circumstances I always kept in the back in the mining conversations
 with people because I would say hey if that's what you're looking for I did this and this was fun
 and I'd send a couple of friends here and then I wasn't involved with the organization for about
 let's say three years but it wasn't it wasn't volatile it wasn't like I was you know pissed
 at anyone I knew anything was going on it was literally a course that I would send friends to
 and nexium didn't exist as it's titled yet it was called executive success programs and that was
 the only company that existed at the time and then that Forbes article came out in 2003 and you
 need to understand this this organization started in 1998 and in about three or four years that
 president of the organization Nancy Salisman was working with Edgar Brahmsman head of Seagram's
 and head of the Jewish Halal Center so head of some very powerful in religion head of someone
 I forget the woman's name at black entertainment television she was coaching them and then there
 was someone from Mexico kind of head of medicine in Mexico she was in the ear of three pretty
 influential people in a very short amount of time so it was kind of a rag tag on its grassroots level
 but there was an aspect of it where it had gotten to some privileged people in a short amount of time
 so it wasn't doing that because it was it wasn't powerful it was doing it because there were some
 aspects to it and if you saw foul and you saw the the series the dynamo endorses thing and they had
 a lot of people kicked the tire on who Nancy Salisman was who Keith Reiner was so while people look
 back and say hey you know I'm not I wouldn't fall not maybe wouldn't have but a lot of other
 influential people did fall for it and that's what people need to start to look and understand
 because these cons and these kinds of things and these abuses of power they come pretty well
 packaged sometimes and if people have the gift of gab to do this and those are that's a lot of
 the stuff that kept people in so I decided in about December of 2003 you know I'm not the person
 that's going to lead this I didn't really want to I the ROI on the curriculum it kind of you know
 run it's course with me I got it and I was applying to my life and I was in touch with Lauren
 Salisman here and there and I felt like you know that's going to be my relationship with a company
 I don't think I'm going to be a guy it's going to come in and teach the curriculum and it wasn't
 wasn't wasn't my jam and then I get cast in something in LA in around 2005 2006 and I live in LA
 for a little bit and then they ended up the organization in that time in about three years grew
 very very quickly and pretty big they were in Mexico City Monterey it was growing in New York City
 and they're just beginning to do a center in LA and that's when Mark Vicente a film director who if
 you see in the vowel he directed the movie what the bleep do we know which came out around 2005
 it had a lot of success and he came to LA and he was telling me hey listen we have this film project
 people thought of you as being one of the the characters in this film and you would have to
 move back to New York and specifically Albany and I'm like well shit that sounds like a great
 opportunity but it wasn't ESP it wasn't next scene wasn't any of those things that was lurking me
 back it was work and in my mind is I'm gonna go shoot this film and I'm gonna come back to LA
 or you know whatever whatever comes from the film will open up other doors yeah and so they pay
 for me they move my car they pay for my apartment they pay for everything to move me back to Albany
 New York and around September August of 2006 we go into pre-production I get on a helicopter
 in Albany New York one day and I think it was the fall of 2006 fly down the Hudson land on 34th
 wherever that that helicopter that is we go to Bergdorf Goodman I get fitted for two suits and
 some stuff for wardrobe and I think the things happening right cut to money cut to it was always
 a problem and Mark at this point I'm I'm somewhat pissed at Mark but I'm not paying for anything
 they're paying for me to be there so I'm kind of like okay so this is how it's gonna be maybe
 I can start auditioning like I wasn't there for the curriculum I wasn't there for Keith
 yeah is in short what I'm driving I'm there for work yeah and slowly the project keeps getting
 punted punted and finally in the spring of 2007 I kind of have not a fight with Mark but I'm like
 what the fuck yeah this is my life like you know what's going on here you know I have that moment
 he's apologetic he's like look and he starts working on another project which I'm
 peripherally involved with and I'm like okay works happening I'm okay you know like and so I
 go to the president company I go look I don't want you guys paying for anything anymore I just
 didn't feel right I felt like I was you know getting a free ride and I'm someone who wants to earn
 their shit and you know that just feels better you know I just feels better to earn and like not
 be dependent so I kind of take myself off the tee and I'm on my own there and it just feels
 better I don't want to be I don't want to owe anyone right and then as a group of people that
 want to start you know building in New York City and I got to I don't know if you've been to
 Albany New York but it's you know it's uninhabitable during the winter and it's just it's a one-horse
 town it's not a place I wanted to spend my time in Rochester when it's a similar vibe I
 chose New York since you know Deere Canal wasn't relevant they're just kind of peace out exactly so
 I started auditioning in New York and eventually we start we open a center there I think 2009
 so I'm like okay I'm back in New York you know I'm still involved with the organization I go back
 and forth to Albany a lot we've got projects working on then I end up running a lot of New York
 city stuff and so I think in my mind you know from like 2010 to 11 to when we left I'm I'm a guy
 that's teaching the curriculum in New York I'm going to Los Angeles I'm going to Vancouver my wife
 and I oh we start dating in 2010 2011 right so now I'm going back and forth to Vancouver because
 now she has a center in Vancouver right I was very instrumental in helping her get stuff set up
 there and now I'm I'm living a lifestyle that's like okay cool I'm traveling a lot so I'm not
 auditioning anymore right so the thing that I originally went out to go do I'm no longer pursuing
 my goals and the very reason I got into taking this curriculum in the first place I'm no longer
 doing so my dreams are on the side right and it's a slow process right there's a slow process of
 slowly you know making the organization more important than your own dreams and goals
 and I started to get frustrated with that because I was always torn like imagine having a goal and
 then you're helping other people achieve theirs yeah and so you know that kind of you know
 relationship started to where I mean and I felt the time kind of being empty eating out and my
 my aspirations and things that I want wanted weren't being fulfilled and every time I went to
 address it it was like you know what about the organization and your other goals which
 if and I had a conversation in 2012 where I almost left with someone it says like look we're
 building this organization that's supposed to be inspiring change in doing all those things but
 I don't see it happening so I have I was having these conversations five years before I left
 and I was like if you think we're changing the world we're throwing rocks at tanks
 was the curriculum changing through this whole evolution you know yes yeah well there was more
 companies right so then he starts a genus which was the women's group in hindsight he starts that
 in 2005 which I think was really a key sway of being like now I have access to the women
 and I can indoctrinate the women now at the time we felt so so this is how it was built
 um we live in a very male dominated female influence world fair enough right we can all agree on
 yeah and for whatever reasons that happened you know men had to go out and kill and hunt and build
 the structures of the world well women were more nurturing and they became more of an authority
 in that and men became authority what they became it it was first survival right and so if you
 subscribed to the notion that society set up somewhat on our primitive impulses that
 imbalances what we're living with right now genus you know the soft kind of is an organization
 that seeks to define women's power unencumbered by what men define it is fair enough that's noble
 that's purposeful no one would argue with those content points so you understand the indoctrination
 you understand the hook you understand why people would would fall for these things because nobody's
 thinking this guy setting up genus just basically to get laid right and the people around him
 which you ended up seeing um in a lot of the documentaries fortified this narrative every time
 someone like me would go hold on a second hold on a second they told us he was celibate so this
 persona was propped up that unless you were directly around him you didn't see anything otherwise
 which is what allowed him to gain influence over a lot of people because there was a big conglomerate
 of people mostly women that fortified the narrative that he was this person now it didn't come without
 it's like really hmm you know like not everyone was like drink that's supposed to be an
 incentive turn drink in the Kool-A but I'm going to use it just because I think most people
 have that they get it or talking about not not everyone went in going you know
 yeah sign me up a lot of people were like fuck that I'm out of seen this before a lot of people
 were like hmm you had to convince a little bit more so it's a case by case thing um
 ultimately you know it was a case where he abused his power got people around him to propagate
 a narrative about who he was and when challenged people people people like me were lied to
 by people I trusted and were friends with that I never would have thought happened so that's
 what led to the ultimate DOS branding and all that stuff it was it was a 10 15 year for some
 people indoctrination and then at a certain point when the red flags came up I kind of felt like
 I didn't challenge him anymore the organization had my trust and my loyalty until I saw
 with my own eyes that shit's not what you guys are saying and then that's when I kind of went
 postal but it sounds like off from the get go you're a little bit of a the a rebel in disguise
 within the organization so and I was I was somewhat vocal about yeah um I was vocal with people
 around me when people go I'm going into Albany to work on this I go don't go to Albany don't go
 there stay here do your goals and and I think um the organization is the centers and say
 Mexico Mexico Monterey Los Angeles Vancouver where they were goals programs if you went into those
 centers you would have been like yeah this is fine this is people coming once a week to work on
 their goals and that's kind of what I felt like it was it was a it was a corporation it was a
 business um the other thing is is I think it's a case by case thing certain people are always
 susceptible to a certain point and you see it in a lot of organizations you see it religion not
 everyone becomes a priest people show up on Sundays yeah right so it's kind of you know hey I got
 this I got this out of it and I can I can go also I wasn't targeted I wasn't targeted if I
 wasn't a young hot high girl I wasn't a guy I was a guy probably kept peripheral intentionally
 um because I'd probably a good spokesperson yeah for you added credibility yeah yeah that's
 you know that's that's since how I figured out how I was abused um not used abused and and
 strategically um why I was sought after in LA to come back and work on a film that was never
 going to happen I still I probably won't ever know um so was that all was that all on act
 do you know do you I mean look I think Mark really wanted to make a film I think Mark was
 ambitious to make a film but the way it works with these people you know whatever you want to
 call narcissistic sociopaths or whatever is you know I would keep someone like you involved
 peripherally because you have a company that could promote me and when you came to visit me I
 tell you exactly what you wanted to hear and you'd leave thinking we were working on something
 and then if something went wrong I'd have a pretty good reason as to why it wouldn't go wrong
 until finally after a year or two you'd go this guy's hot air he doesn't do anything that happened a
 lot too people come to town they'll be working on a project and then they'd leave after a year
 two because it didn't happen and then when you go ask why they left the the powers that be around
 Keith ago well they didn't want to work their issues um what the fuck does that mean yeah you brought
 you you bring them there to work on a project their issues aren't really what they're they're
 to work on and that's not what I was there to work on when I went to go work on a film but ultimately
 it became something that I kind of got gaslit into but I also felt like hey if this is work I'm
 just going to tow the line a little bit until I recognized you know I recognize when I would go
 back to complain to the organization hold them accountable that they just always had a arbitrary
 reason was it was multi-level marketing though I mean and that's what it gets classified as I'm
 like the whole you know in short yes but when that was challenged if that was always the weird
 thing about the quote unquote career paths in there you could do a career path through doing one
 on one called what they're called EMs with people which I wasn't interested in or teaching I like
 teaching the goals aspects my favorite part about it was working with what we called the GVL which
 I know you have a t-shirt I'm not sure if that means greenville greenville okay so it was called
 goals and values lab and I ran one in New York Vancouver and was starting one in LA and
 basically people will come with their goals and help them with their next steps in what the missing
 resource was I loved doing that I loved to kind of figuring out the riddle of why people weren't
 achieving things and it's it kind of lends the like playing quarterback when like working with people
 you kind of get a sense of people and what they need and I liked being the guy that could see
 that and help them with that that was fun for me that was really where where I went with it and then
 there was you could run a center which is what my wife did and then enrollment so the enrollment
 ultimately as I've come to learn is multi-level marketing but they didn't say it as such and the
 reason they didn't say it was that is because they said multi-level marketing stole the value from
 people who were actually producing it and our organization made sure that the people producing
 the value got compensated for the for their effort so he prided himself in having these complex
 multi-level marketing things that always rewarded people's effort or compensated people's effort
 ethically and so we kind of were at our worst sanctumones and self-righteous about that right
 and I think everyone at a certain point kind of felt that way about it but we didn't
 see ourselves as multi-level marketers in fact we thumbed our noses at multi-level marketing
 concepts so how did I mean so when did things start going south I mean completely obviously you
 obviously were kind of a doubted you know doubting Thomas all along to a degree to a degree I mean
 I never doubted the intent of the company though yeah I just felt like it was an in apt company
 down to down to how people got paid down to admin down to how people were supported down to the
 functionality of things I didn't realize that all those things were intentional so that the people
 running the organization would always be busy putting up fires and that's what a not so size
 suit path does they just basically create problems for everyone to be putting out so I was always
 disillusioned and disenfranchised with that aspect of the company always from the get I felt like
 incompetent people were in charge of things that they shouldn't be qualified with when we did get
 competent people say with Harvard business degrees or stuff like that they were gasslet into
 thinking that's a traditional way that doesn't work we like to work with the person you're all
 about results just shit like that went on all the time I'd be like what the fuck are we talking
 about this guy's a Harvard business degree he's smarter than anyone here but that was a threat right
 so his skill set or ability was then pitched as a liability to the company very manipulative shit
 like that went on all the time and people were promoted somewhat out of integrity right someone
 would get a position of power over someone who was way more qualified than they and then that
 the structure of the hierarchy would crumble as a result because that that creates a lot of
 disenfranchised me a lot of disillusioned if like I come in and I start running your company and
 your way more qualified than I am yeah that just doesn't create a positive atmosphere so
 if it's I've always said this if it was an army or a platoon my route was always low
 right and so that just doesn't lend well to growing anything and I felt that and I was sensitive
 that and I had a problem with that and I would be in marks year and I'd be in my wife's year
 because they were on the the center owners calls and I'd be like that's a problem this person shouldn't
 be here you fire them you fire them but you couldn't fire people in the company so that was always
 kind of like one of the things I had a problem with and I had one foot out the door towards
 again because I was starting to audition more and I was I was producing a web series that that
 I was working on and then ultimately you know when this DOS women's group started
 was when that was it there's no more debates there is no more like and then then then
 then it's kind of the moment of when I saw that all the other stuff that I had a problem with
 and all the other things that I kind of got a hint of and a feel for right made sense and when I
 say I had a feel for if you're in a if you're if you're working in an atmosphere that has dark forces
 in viewing it informing it or whatever you're going to feel it on some level right now whether
 you can articulate or pinpoint where it's coming from and how is a totally different thing
 right you know and take for example what's going on in our world right now there's a lot of dark
 forces going on right now sometimes dressed up as altruism right they've got the uniform and the
 makeup of altruistic movements but if you start to look underneath the forces they're dark and
 they're seedy most good people don't think that's going on because they don't have that kind of
 psychology right which allows that dark psychology to thrive is because most people don't even know
 the ask the question of why are you branding someone well there's even a cure to most people
 the abuse of powers don't really occur to those kind of people at all so it allows good people to
 unwittingly promote something that's dark when you see the thing that's negative it becomes
 it's it's the you know those those what do you call those pictures where the holograms hit me
 yeah it becomes that moment and you can't unsee it and then then the forces that you've been
 feeling and the negative things that have been going on become way more clear to you and then
 that informs your action like it's it goes from and that's that's a that's a that's a mind-fuck
 transition just just just just right now you go from a believer to holy shit I would I've been
 doing the I've been aligned with something that's dark and then you're left with your own
 morality and what to do and for me I was you know I wanted I wanted to flip some tables
 I wonder yeah you want to punch some people in the face yeah yeah I my wife and my family were
 put in danger and I also knew that a lot of people around me were still in the indoctrination
 and I had to be sensitive to that they were still my friends I didn't want to inflict pain but
 my first thing was I need to get my wife and child out of harm's way and I'm going to go rattles
 many cages as I can and then let the authorities do do their work and they did in an amazing way
 and they exposed things that I couldn't even imagine um what was what was the you know you talk
 about you know getting out of harm's way and you know for everyone that doesn't know you hadn't
 maybe seen or heard the entire story of all this uh and we're gonna you know tell people
 where to find all that at the end but the uh okay but um what was and you talked about I mean some
 of it like what were what was really happening that made you practically figure for your life
 your family's life or like just what was happening or was it just how powerful they were or
 just the influence you know that um I recognized I was dealing with a powerful force
 that if they wanted to and they wanted to turn their guns on me my wife could and they could do it
 legally and legally is is I put in air quotes um that is the banner of morality they hide behind
 so they can do their abuses does that make sense yeah so they can come after us under this
 faux dressed up principle of we've wronged them we've done things on justice and Keith is going
 to flex how he upholds his principles in the world in a very altruistic way while abusing people
 the entire time and if effecting really in part what the force is is it's different than traditional
 tit for tat if that makes sense um it's it's not an overt abuse it's not like you know I
 punch you right it's okay I'm going to do it's it's an abuse of the mind it's abuse of the soul
 if you will right so he sucks people's souls while pretending to empower them right yeah and that's
 when I recognize holy shit this guy's built a whole entire persona a whole different entire things
 and it's and he's and he's abusing people and so the first thing you do the first thing I did is
 I just you got to get out of the clutches of it physically out of out of any sort of range so you
 can recoup you can strategize and we had we had and for those of people don't know um mark for
 santae and his wife left before we did and that's really when I knew I was gone because I knew
 something was was wrong things I'd seen mark a month before I left I could feel it and I knew he
 wasn't telling me something but I didn't know what and and he knew he couldn't tell me directly what
 it was because I probably wouldn't have believed it so he was very strategic and how he told Sarah
 and he was very strategic and how he told me about the abuses that were going on with the women
 and he didn't know all of them he didn't know everyone was branded he didn't know there was a
 women's group that was going around and doing all these things so um it had been going on for
 probably two or three years which incidentally we all had a feel that something weird was going on
 but I didn't live in Albany so I didn't get to see it every day and also it was people losing a
 lot of weight really quickly that I just looked at and go that's that's a that's your goal that's
 your life who am I to tell you that you know losing weight and all that stuff shouldn't be your
 goal it wasn't my problem and I was in Albany and I was out so um the forces that you know that
 I felt like I was dealing with were dark and it wasn't something I could go
 intellectually talk people out of if that makes sense they were heavily induction it you're talking
 people you're talking to people that have a dogma behind them and think they're right
 and who they're defending at all cost it didn't really matter and and and when you're in that
 kind of space you know I've seen they're willing to go ruin people's lives in the name of
 a la if you will right they don't think that what they're doing is abusive and that's dangerous
 you're dealing with something that you know you have to understand what you're looking at when you see
 that and it's it's it's extreme so I felt like okay that that's the problem what what I'm seeing
 right now in physical evidence is a physical manifestation of the emotional abuses that I feel like
 I've been going on the entire time and couldn't articulate right so um and a lot of ways the
 physical manifestation of those abuses are the thing that took it down and a lot of ways we were
 lucky to have that because there's no intellectual debate about branding someone in the pubic area
 with your rituals the conversation's over at that point yeah and I was going to make sure it was
 over I wasn't going to get into oh well they agreed to it no fuck you this shit stops with me
 and I don't know what I would have done and I don't say this to be a tough guy I don't you know
 and then I certainly don't want to use I didn't want to use violence to handle my problems
 I think once you do that you put yourself in a category and domain of lack of credibility
 and you create a whole slew of other problems for yourself but if we were going to get if the
 if the police or FBI wasn't going to do their job and we're going to get tied up in litigation
 with Claire Bronfman's abusive regime I can't I don't know what I've done
 because I knew where they all lived how many women ended getting branded so we don't have the
 official tally but I think it's in the range of 20 okay and they claim there's like 100 women
 that were in it but most of them didn't know what was going on how did I just once I just don't know
 if he once you start doing that I just don't know how he I guess envisioned it going down like
 you just that branch this was my letter well he well look you see this with everyone right you
 see this with dogmatic leaders everywhere once you start to get away with all this stuff
 you create a belief that you can do anything read your history books yeah right and some of them
 have I mean you know you look at and I've read he's also a history major in school and one of the
 most fascinating courses I took in college was on Russian history and there was a poll done in
 like 1990 1991 about Joseph Stalin and 51% of the population still saw him in a favorable light now
 the body count on Joseph Stalin we don't know yet that's in the 20 million right yeah so
 that's very telling right these people think they can get away with it and they get a conglomerate
 people around them that agree with them and they're afraid to say anything otherwise so you know
 it's a culture of fear masquerading as altruism and I think they lose touch they lose touch with like
 you have a billionaire aris that can protect you you lose touch with the reality of
 of your abuses you lose touch with the reality of what you can get away with and you've seen it
 in other things with Jim Jones and that was my letter to Nancy when the president the company
 we got out it's like what was the next step with us where was this headed like if it's an algorithm
 right right you know you take an algorithm of someone who's 15 years old has really good habits
 they would say want to be an athlete they've got things you can extrapolate out that hey this
 person might end up in 10 years it in a professional league based on those habits you're branding
 women you're having blowjob sessions you have a secret group that they can only have sex with you
 extrapolate that algorithm five 10 years from now where the fuck does that going yeah exactly
 you know what I mean and there was already two women very close to this guy who died of
 kind of rare cancers and they were two women that were extremely healthy like you know
 didn't put anything bad into their bodies now I don't know their genetic disposition but I also
 know they're very healthy and mindful so these aren't accidents and I don't think these any of
 this stuff is coincidence so when once I really took inventory on that you know there was no way
 I was gonna throw every punch I could to end it within my within my power and that's became really
 I really became you know Mark Vicente his wife Bonnie my life and my wife's life for a better
 part of you know year two and still is in a sense of you know I told my wife we're gonna turn
 a negative into a positive and it's not gonna be easy because the hardest part is we need to
 discipline our psychologies right that the biggest thing and I've been in situations like this
 before it's like you have to really condition yourself to be positive about this and it didn't
 feel that way and it was waking up at three in the morning it was waking up with like shit I had
 to get involved with this and at first it's a little bit of the humiliation I just I told my
 wife we can't stay here long like we have to get out of this in our psychologies and turn our
 experience into wisdom and content so people can understand it and our lane whether we like it or not
 isn't necessarily cults it's abuses of power and I don't think I'm gonna be talking about
 cults for much longer I mean I think I'm it you know if I talk about if I talk about cults
 and abuses of power responsibly this is gonna segue into something else yeah and so our
 story is our power right now and that's been somewhat of a difficult thing to embrace
 for just for a lot of reasons but I firmly believe a lot of times in life you don't get to pick and
 choose how and what you're gonna stand for what you're gonna stand for it's what's ever in front
 of you and that's gonna dictate your character a lot of the times the adversity and how you handle
 it and that's been the lesson of this whole thing and hopefully I can turn that lesson into some
 wisdom and that's you know what our podcast is about now and whenever I sit down with someone I
 I just really it's very important for me to stay in that lane until other other lanes open up
 and I feel like I'm an authority in that lane if that makes sense it does make sense yeah because
 I'm serving the stories so the story doesn't serve me right so and and my story's different than
 my wife's and everyone else's who's has been involved with it so that's that's been the lesson of
 this whole thing and what episode do you got how far are you to do a little bit culty is the
 yeah so we're done with our first season okay first seasons over so we had 13 episodes and how
 that came to be was one is a great example of what to embrace and how to embrace it I was looking
 forward to wrapping this thing up after the vow I kind of felt like there was some exposure of you
 know I never wanted my personal life to be other people's entertainment and I was somewhat reluctant
 I have a lot of friends who know me and talk to me called me after it's like it's it's really
 funny every every shy of you every cutaway of you is you shaking your head
 so I was like yeah you know it wasn't oh I hadn't also necessarily reconciled you know
 my my trauma so much and I really wasn't comfortable
 showing that all the time until I recognized you know a lot of times when they'd ask me questions
 I was like I can answer this and I can answer this responsibly I think you know I can answer this
 without being pissed off or I can answer this like where I think this is good content for people
 out there that will help people so ultimately that was always that's always the thing that was
 tugging at me you know and I also felt like people telling the story inadequately or irresponsibly
 I felt like that doesn't do the story justice let me answer that you know and you know that might
 be presumptuous but that's always the that's always going to be the problem right are you presumptuous
 to think that your story is interesting or you presumptuous to think it's going to help people
 and I decide to err on the side of you know giving it a shot you know I come from you know we live in
 generation where tick-tock Instagram and all that stuff attention is the objective a lot of the
 times and I can remember when I was like in fifth or sixth grade I scored a touchdown and I started
 celebrating the ends and the car right home my dad said I like you've been there before so I come
 from a generation of you know don't seek the spotlight don't like so there's that conflict of
 you know attentions the value and the objective sometimes the attention ought to be the effect
 of your pursuits and ought to be when you sit down with someone the attention you're getting is
 effective some sort of pursuit that you have or some sort of objective value that people want to
 hear so I've always kind of wrestled with that and when we were approached about the podcast
 I'll say this you know we had some dark forces pulling out of pulling out us and when we got out
 the light showed up and it showed up in spades it showed up in the the directors of the vow
 just in terms of their sensitivity to the story the questions they ask and then we had some really
 great citizens of sound as the people that produced our podcast and they said look your story's
 amazing we think you should do a podcast and I just said now I'm done you know it's Sarah's like
 we were both kind of done and then another woman who's our associate producer a woman named
 Jess Tarty it was familiar with the story pitched us on a whole idea and well I looked at Sarah
 and that's actually not a bad idea we can just riff and we did and it started to grow and we
 are negotiating a contract for a second season right now which will start in probably a couple
 weeks I love it man so what else you've ever provided what else are you to well like two kids
 dominate my time I'll tell you that so I love that I love my kids you know I look at them as
 they're going to be you know hopefully reap the benefits of our wisdom I audition probably two
 three times a week so I've been doing a lot of that in this podcast you know we didn't know we
 were taking a bite out of it takes takes up a lot of time so you know it was perfect timing in
 terms of COVID because we basically had an opportunity fall right into our living room and we could
 do it so that's been great so you know being a good dad is what I'm what I've been trying to do
 and you know podcast and auditioning a lot and you know there's other stuff that we're
 kicking around right now but I think just dominate what's in front of you as much as you can
 what would you tell people that are listening you know like I wanted to have you on to hear the
 other side of of of where business goes south and how people get drawn in and all those things and
 all the wonderment that was your story I what would you tell people you know because now like you
 mentioned you know the world we live in with attention and all these things so the opportunity is
 even greater for something like this to it's probably happening right now we don't even know it
 or you know someone knows it but what would you tell someone you know that's listening you know like
 what to obviously your smart guy you were looking out for you always had this tug of negative
 some negative energy that was going on with it but is there anything you tell people you know
 that are kind of might be going through it or having that potential you know I mean the
 question I hear you asking is what are the red flags and kind of what are some of the precursors
 and stuff like that because because we're in an age where the traditional
 job cycles aren't what they are and there's a lot of people inventing gigs online and the
 economic situation the pressures are somewhat more acute than previous generations right which
 make you somewhat susceptible right and there's not a lot of clear pathways to do
 you know jobs that are somewhat obsolete now and there was different 20 years ago but it was
 the precursor for what's going on right now so you see a lot of these people propagating themselves
 as people that they're not and I think that's becoming way more exposed because it's
 just saturated with it so I would say a couple things number one trust your gut
 right and there's a couple delineations in that because one of the first things they told
 us is like if if this feels bad it probably means it's working right so you know that comes with
 the caveat right I would find people that are doing what you want to do at the highest level and
 figure out what they do you know in terms of a pursuit if you come across someone who's somewhat
 of a claims as a profit and makes bold assertions about themselves that's a pretty good indication
 that they're not that a lot of times if you try to challenge and ask questions and get pushback
 and get gas lit and get flipped around on you that's a pretty good indication that you're it's
 something to run from and I would if something feels bad I would not move forward until it feels
 better meaning this is a problem wise is a problem like there is certain things that I handed the
 responsibility of interrogation off to someone I felt like it had done it for me if that makes sense
 I would go what is this they're saying about him here and they'd give me an explanation back and
 because I trusted them and and all that stuff I'll go okay and I'll accept it to me when I look
 back on my responsibility that's the biggest mistake I had because I had some questions I went to
 people that I trusted but I didn't recognize that they were indoctrinated into
 towing the company line and that cost me probably 12 years of my life
 because I didn't go back and really like and and and a lot of it was like
 somewhat laziness on my part and somewhat like I trust them you know and and and that and that
 you know that cost me and you know it's going back to the specific points of when that happened
 it's hard it's hard to figure out my one of my mentors always told me it is you don't have to
 apologize for trusting but verifying right trust right exactly that's you nailed it and so you know
 it isn't said I don't trust anymore I trust differently and one of the things
 that I am very very sensitive to right now and I pointed out to my wife every time I see it
 is the loading of language um we get into a lot of some of these these in our podcast and how it looks
 but our story doesn't mean anything if we can't take our experience and kind of relate it to what's
 going on in other domains and other hierarchies because the abuses of power that went on in our
 organization are proprietary to cults right and the loading of languages one that I see right now
 particularly and not to pick and delineate on but with the political correctness that's going on
 right now where if you control the words and you control um the dialogue in that way it means
 you control the thoughts and it means you control the nature of where the conversation is going to go
 and that leads to thoughts which lead to behaviors and you see it a lot going on in our school
 systems right now and you see a lot of these dogmatic behaviors going on right now that I just
 went through and so I think if I can make my story worth anything it's really really be responsible
 with how I articulate how those things work and how they can seat their way into the psychology
 of not just our mainstream media but our schools and you know it's not too long after our
 schooling systems bad ideas permeate into our culture it takes a generation it takes very
 it's very quick and I see a lot of that stuff going on right now and the number one effect of it is
 division you know so you know that's one of the things I'm super sensitive to right now um and that
 might change you know but but that's the one right now where I just feel like they're controlling
 language which controls thoughts which controls behavior and that that's what happened
 slip-recent loop this so you know and you know ask me in three to six months it might be something
 different but right now that's that's what I would really get people to do and go read read a lot
 read people you disagree with read them a lot you know um and if you're 20 25
 even 30 stay on stay on that journey you don't have to it's yours and not anyone else is to dictate
 but I just find reading I just reading just expands your entire and gives you a bigger template
 to compare and contrast and don't stop reading don't stop for sure yeah no that you know
 teaching my my seven-year-old to read right now and he's going through the frustration of it and I
 said listen you get over this hump it opens up an entire world for you oh yeah um so you know
 Anthony I really appreciate all your openness and wisdom uh yeah and coming on uh where can people
 keep up with everything um watch the vowel H-B-O H-B-O max yeah so there's the vowel and
 there's season two that's coming out I think in November-ish we're not sure because you know
 they're always editing and stuff like that um of a little bit Coltie right um no the vowel
 a little bit Coltie you can go on to um all the mean google a little bit Coltie yeah yeah you can
 come up and we have great guests on there we have the Scientology story on on that as well
 a lot of people X members a lot of experts yeah that can answer a lot of the questions you ask me
 very very clinically um and um are we have 13 episodes there and then we have our season two which
 will be coming out you know probably the next couple months time it up with the vowel um you can
 follow us on a little bit Coltie and Instagram and um that's it cool man really appreciate
 you coming on and yeah thanks for having me appreciate you uh giving me a platform to share
 my story yeah my pleasure and uh hey guys we really appreciate Anthony Ames coming on he just told
 you where to find him go check out a little bit Coltie and check out the vowel you know where to
 find us we're at theradcast.com at the.rad.cast on Instagram and I'm at Ryan Offert on all the
 platforms we'll see you next time on the Radcast