193 - Fire Fundamentals pt. 15 - Extinguishing systems with Bogdan Racięga

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello and welcome to the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Last week we had fire fundamentals and guess what?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This week we're talking fire fundamentals once again.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Last week we've talked about jet fan systems and ventilation and today I'm venturing in the world as far from that as possible.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Well, maybe not that far.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Actually, I'm switching the theme from air to water or to other extinguishing agents.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>From air to water or to other extinguishing agents and in this episode of Fire Science Show we will cover the basics of suppression and extinguishing technologies out there.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So we will talk about water-based systems, we'll talk a little bit about other types of extinguishing systems that you can find out there and obviously I'm not an expert.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I feel comfortable talking about jet fans, pressurization or any sort of smoke control for you, but I'm definitely not an expert in any suppression or extinguishing applications.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I even mix the terms.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I've invited an expert that I know and I respect highly my good colleague, Bogdan Racięga.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Bogdan is a director at the Baltic Fire Laboratory, chairman of the scientific council at the International Water Misassociation and a member of numerous NFPA panels, like 750, 502 or 409.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And the Baltic Fire Laboratory it's the laboratory in Poland that specializes in testing suppression and extinguishing applications, and I've been there multiple times.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I've seen the experiments out there.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's very impressive and definitely, definitely they've gained a huge body of knowledge on how those systems work.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In this podcast episode we will go a little bit deeper into how they work, but really the point is to recap the fundamentals, to test the point of fire fundamentals.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's recap the fundamentals and learn the basic differences between the systems.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What are the parameters that characterize the systems?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How do those parameters turn into actions on buildings?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Why would you care about pressure?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Why would you care about discharge?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How does it change the outcomes on the fire?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How do you choose the correct application for the problem at your hand?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>These are the things that I wanted Bongdan to cover and I think he quite well delivered that.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So even if you're an expert in suppression or extinguishing, this episode should have some good nuggets of knowledge even for you.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And if you're coming to the world of fire from structural engineering, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering you're not a fire safety engineer but yet you have to work with the fire problem and you have not really been exposed to those extinguishing systems, this is an episode for you that will give you a kickstart into the profession and cover the basics for you, so I'm really proud to introduce you to this episode.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope you will have a good time listening to it.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Welcome to the fire science.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>My name is Wojciech Wigrzyński and I will be your host.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with Ofar Consultants, a multi-award winning independent consultancy dedicated to addressing fire safety challenges.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business of two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business has grown phenomenally to eight offices across the country, from Edinburgh to Bath.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Colleagues are on a mission to continually explore the challenges that FHIR creates for clients and society, applying the best research experience and diligence for effective, tailored solution.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In 2025, there will be new opportunities to work with OFR.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Ofr will grow its team once more and is keen to hear from industry professionals who would like to collaborate on fire safety features this year.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Get in touch at ofrconsultantscom.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello everybody.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I am here today with my good friend, bogdan racenga from baltic fire laboratory.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello, bogdan, good to have you in the podcast again.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Hello, boy checking.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you for invitation again.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah, thanks, man.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I so many times in my life when I said I'm having extinction.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You've corrected me I'm having suppression, so I thought that perhaps let's clear this once and for all on air.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But really there's so many nuances around sprinklers and extinguishing and suppressions that I believe a lot of people will benefit from learning.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But let's start with that one like extinction versus suppression.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Why the hell are you correcting me all the time, bogdan?

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Yeah, exactly, because, especially in our Polish language, there's not exactly a word about the suppression system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>The people are saying extinguishing system, extinction system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So in our laboratory, when we are testing this active fire protection system, we have clear differences between the extinguishing system and the separation system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So, in very short words, the extinguishing system is a system which must extinguish the fire in the specific time.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>If this time is like 15 minutes, 30 minutes, you need to achieve the full extinguishing of the fire which is in the specific place, the most probably in our enclosures.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And this is the extinguishing system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And the suppression system has a specific time to achieve specific suppression criteria.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>This suppression criteria means ceiling temperature and the damage of the object which is in the fire Actually makes sense.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So extinction would be like getting rid of the fire completely, and suppression would be minimizing the outcomes of the fire, correct?

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And then you have the specific application.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>I give you example for that.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So the extinguishing system we are using mainly in the machinery space turbine enclosures.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So then the system is dealing with the fire itself.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>You do not counting on any fire brigade or any crew in this factory, on this marine vessel, for example.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So the system inside the laboratory is tested in such a way that it's able to kill this fire within 15 minutes.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>If you are, for example, telling about the IMO 1165 test methods for the total flooding.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Then the suppression system, like we have the systems with the sprinkler and the water mist in the hotels, for example.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So this system has some limits on the ceiling in terms of the temperature.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>We can divide the fire tests to the reference tests with the sprinkler and the water mist.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Then the sprinkler system we are running first.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>This is a test that is making a base for our test criteria for the water mist system and the water mist system in terms of the temperature on the ceiling shall be on the same level or better, and the damages on the object, like the office desk and the sofa, should be in better results.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It means the damage with the water mist must be less.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Like the sprinkler.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>There are as well some test protocols that you mist must be less like the sprinkler.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>There are as well there's some test protocol that you do not need to run the sprinkler system when you are testing the water mist system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So there, you have clearly defined the temperature on the ceiling that you cannot cross and the damage on the object which is in the fire, and this is suppression.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It means after 30 minutes, still you have the fire, but you are going to terminate the test.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'm going to be called a lobbyist, but I always wondered why sprinkler systems do not require a reference.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What are these tests to compare them to?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And perhaps that's not good Damage.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We'll go back into the systems because that's on the long list of questions they have for you.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But you mentioned damage to the items around the sprinklers or whatever device is operating.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So what do you actually mean by saying limiting damage?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How do you assess the damage?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How does it look in the experiment?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah, okay.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So let's fix to the object which is in the fire, which is the sofa.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, it consists of the two sofas, which is like the eight materats, and we have the sidewall test, for example, where we have the sofa in the fire and after 30 minutes the sofa cannot be burned more than 40% of the total volume.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So after the fire tests, we have the special technique as a laboratory to measure this 40%.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>If we are above, it means failure and if we are below, it means pass.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And I guess every different protocol that you test for would have its own criteria.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I remember when I was visiting your laboratory, you were having this vehicle mock-up and you had some wood planks next to the vehicle.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yes, so these were the damage targets for assessments Correct.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So in this test which you've seen, it was IMO 1430 with the passenger vehicle which representing the fire, or the car on the 2.5 meter ceiling, which is quite low, as we discussed, and inside there was the 12 pallets.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>In this test the damage itself on the pallets is not counted, it's counted the temperature on the ceiling.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And then important in this test is if the targets, which was on the left and on the right, the play woods, are ignited or not.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And then this information, if the play woods are ignited or not, for the lab is a challenge as well sometimes to found, because the wood, despite is wet by the water, may burn within 400 Celsius even.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I knew it's a good idea to bring you to the podcast, and the stuff that we're discussing right now is so important to engineers to understand what is behind the numbers.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like, people very rarely know what does fire resistance of 30 minutes really mean unless they've seen a fire test in a fire laboratory or have a very specific methodology to assess that this particular device is fit for actually quite a representative scenario of hazard.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Do scenarios like that like they really exist for almost any accommodation?

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Like every time you see a different sprinkler type, it means there's a specific test describing the fire for a specific location and it has to go to protocol, or it's like I don't know.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Uh, they use tests for car parks as I say, okay, this is gonna be fit for, I don't know, changing rooms and and bicycle storage and and metro stations.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>How does it work?

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<v Bogdan Racięga>okay, so I I will go in such way with the sprinklers.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>You are mainly have this value of the millimeters of the water in the square meter which you have, the value for the specific hazard and you can follow with this value, okay, okay.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, I explain this the best, I think, with reference to the performance-based system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It means the water mists.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Why it will be better?

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Because when you have the fire in the office and the fire in the car park, those are the two different fires and, of course, the car park is the most challenging one comparing to the office, because of the quantity of the fuel load which you have in the office or in the hotel, for example, nozzle or sprinkler head which is dedicated for the car park or dedicated for the office.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>The quantity of the water for the car park is much higher because it's related to the density, yeah, so oh2, like for the sprinklers, 80 millimeters per square meter in the europe which is quite common.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It's a kind of value for the water-based system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Sprinkler with the water mist is different because, again, you have the reference tests with the sprinkler system and after you are creating your pass-fail criteria based on the sprinkler test.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So where the water mist system if it's high pressure or if it's low pressure.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>In the car parks the density comparing to the OH1 commodity, like in the office, is much, much higher.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And it's important as well in those tests that in the car parks, for example, the area of the operation, call it the most demanding area, it's 144 square meters.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>And in the OH1 spaces it's like 72 square meters.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It means in our tests we are testing the system and there are specific heads sprinkler heads or water mist heads which can operate during the test and if some of the heads will operate outside of the specific ring, the test is failed.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It means this justifies you that the system was able to stop the fire spread and the temperature are maintaining very well on the ceiling so you have also like reference things, like the areas like the flow rates, uh discharge values that allow you to generalize some, some concept, and still, I would assume, those uh correlation that you need.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>This particular oh2 setting for carport comes from experience and testing.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yes, um, we brought up many names for those different systems, so perhaps let's clean this up a little bit.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I don't think I've had such discussion in Fire Science Show yet.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So we were talking about Sprint, we were talking about Watermist.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Let's clean it up.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What types of systems extinction or suppression systems, what kind of systems are there on the market that that the fire engineers could meet in their jobs?

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<v Bogdan Racięga>okay, so generic, about the system which you can find everywhere.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Of course.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>We have the water-based system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It means the sprinkler, the water mist.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Then we have the foam system, which are helping us to fight with the pool fires, mainly areosol system, the system which are testing a lot now because of some changes on the market, gas system, like the clean agent inert guard system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So those are mainly those which I mentioned here, and each of them has a specific purpose and application as well.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>You cannot use each of the system to all the application, so the key point is to understand which system shall be addressed to your application.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>This is the most critical to understand and know the strong sides and the weak sides as well of those extinguishing or the suppression systems.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You have not mentioned extinguishing balls.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>No, no, this is something that I'm struggling a lot because, from last to most, these extinguishing balls are called aerosol generators, because the aerosols are quite successful on the market and there could be serious competitions for the protection of some applications.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So those guys are starting to tell that this is aerosol generator.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It's completely not.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Maybe it's bomb, but it's not the generator of aerosol definitely.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>No, definitely.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay, good, so we would have water-based systems and we would have gas-based systems.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We would have aerosol-based systems, A lot of stuff to choose and the basic differences between, let's say, the gas-based systems.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We would have aerosol-based systems, a lot of stuff to choose and the basic differences between, let's say, the water-based systems.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I mean, it's obvious that water mist gives you mist or fog.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The sprinklers give you this nice big spray of water.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I think the fire engineers would intuitively understand that very well.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And from a technical perspective, like on the technical properties when you design those systems, yes, what are the major differences?

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<v Bogdan Racięga>okay.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So each sprinkler the water means we must divide to the open nozzles or bulb nozzles, correct automatic sprinkler.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So this open nozzles, called the dilution theler world, are the systems which are connected with the dry pipe system.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>It means you have the electronic valve which is triggered by the fire detection system and then you are releasing the water for the specific protection those systems are common in protection of some industry parts like the conveyors, tunnels, tank protection by the cooling as a deluge system.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So you have like 20 sprinklers on a pipe and they all go off together when the fire alarm tells them to do so.

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<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Exactly, I think that's what we do in tunnels, right.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Yes, exactly, and you have the specific area and the quantity of these heads, because this is again connected with the area of the operation and the sizing of the pump.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So you cannot run more than calculated sprinklers in specific zones because then you do not reach the pressure which is the nominal working pressure on the head.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>So when in the laboratory you have the nozzle on the sprinkler tested with the two bars, you must deliver the two bars during the fire, in the tunnel, for example.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>This is the critical value that the flow rate, together with the pressure and the curve value of the nozzle must be respected in case of the fire.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>That's why there are some safety factors on the design side added, despite the tests done in the laboratory and after the open nozzles.

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<v Bogdan Racięga>Of course we have the bulk system, very complex sprinklers with the bulbs inside glass bulb Depends on the sensitivity.

00:16:52.139 --> 00:16:56.572
<v Bogdan Racięga>You have this RTA number which is defining how fast are those bulbs.

00:16:56.572 --> 00:17:04.730
<v Bogdan Racięga>This can be the standard fast response or even super response for some very specific applications.

00:17:04.730 --> 00:17:07.067
<v Bogdan Racięga>And those sprinklers you can find in the hotels.

00:17:07.067 --> 00:17:11.130
<v Bogdan Racięga>There is digital buildings, storage areas, garages, commercial buildings, everywhere.

00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:14.288
<v Bogdan Racięga>Almost those are the most fun with sprinkler system.

00:17:14.288 --> 00:17:14.650
<v Bogdan Racięga>Come on.

00:17:14.650 --> 00:17:17.046
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this was about the sprinkler.

00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:27.030
<v Bogdan Racięga>Now the area where is the most challenging for me and interesting as well, because we are running 65% of the old tests with the Waterme system.

00:17:27.030 --> 00:17:29.444
<v Bogdan Racięga>So again the open nozzles.

00:17:29.444 --> 00:17:34.685
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means triggered by the fire detection system and they're connected with the dry pipe.

00:17:34.685 --> 00:17:46.351
<v Bogdan Racięga>All section is going in the same time and the quantity of the nozzles multiply by the flow rate, giving you this information what the pump's size should be.

00:17:46.351 --> 00:17:57.792
<v Bogdan Racięga>Typical application machinery space generators, tunnels, aircraft, hangars, turbine enclosures, specific hazards, like the other machinery spaces.

00:17:57.792 --> 00:18:00.207
<v Bogdan Racięga>So those are the open nozzles.

00:18:00.207 --> 00:18:10.166
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then the bulk nozzles, the water miss nozzles has mostly faster RTI because the nozzles are quite smaller.

00:18:10.166 --> 00:18:13.088
<v Bogdan Racięga>You have the low pressure system, you have the high pressure systems.

00:18:14.401 --> 00:18:21.134
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we've seen those water miss systems, especially on the marine from the 30 years because it was there.

00:18:21.134 --> 00:18:28.929
<v Bogdan Racięga>Now in the land are widely used because in the European 4972 just entered, like five years ago.

00:18:28.929 --> 00:18:34.153
<v Bogdan Racięga>So now the engineer is able to put in the technical building specification the standard.

00:18:34.153 --> 00:18:36.665
<v Bogdan Racięga>Previously it was challenging because there was no standard.

00:18:36.665 --> 00:18:45.787
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we've seen those systems in the hotels, residential buildings Again about the marine in all these public spaces, restaurants, cabins.

00:18:45.787 --> 00:18:49.164
<v Bogdan Racięga>So very similar application to the sprinkler.

00:18:49.164 --> 00:18:54.555
<v Bogdan Racięga>But there are some areas where the sprinkler are better and where the water miss are better.

00:18:54.555 --> 00:19:13.076
<v Bogdan Racięga>Example Warsaw is a great example because it's buildings have a high-pressure water system because of the hate to reach to the last floor and the water head automatically as well.

00:19:13.801 --> 00:19:15.040
<v Bogdan Racięga>Why would that be Okay?

00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:21.513
<v Bogdan Racięga>Because with the sprinkler system when you're protecting the high-size buildings you must be challenging this water head.

00:19:21.513 --> 00:19:33.500
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means your pump must deliver to the dry riser the most probably or there are the wet risers as well the specific pressure For the certifigular pumps for the certain value.

00:19:33.500 --> 00:19:36.105
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's impossible to reach more.

00:19:36.105 --> 00:19:41.961
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then you need to build inside of your floors the water tanks for the sprinkler system.

00:19:41.961 --> 00:19:52.269
<v Bogdan Racięga>With the water system you have one tank in the basement and one pump unit in the basement and you can protect all the building.

00:19:52.269 --> 00:20:08.847
<v Bogdan Racięga>And I know in the Warsaw the building which is the highest rise, which has 22,000 nozzles of the water nests, which is quite massive, and those are the two pump units in the basement and this is quite a nice project.

00:20:08.847 --> 00:20:16.171
<v Bogdan Racięga>This is a few in Warsaw quite prestigious projects and luckily in Warsaw is the highest building in the European Union as well.

00:20:17.101 --> 00:20:18.666
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Half a meter taller than short.

00:20:18.666 --> 00:20:29.839
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yes, to your face, our British colleagues, we have a half a meter taller building, apparently not by accident Because of the antenna, because of the antenna only.

00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.609
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>No, no, it's a structural part of the building.

00:20:32.609 --> 00:20:33.192
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's important.

00:20:33.192 --> 00:20:34.998
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay, let's not go there.

00:20:34.998 --> 00:20:45.028
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And also, for me, a difference that was obvious when I was talking with people like the difference between Splinkus and Watermist, for example, was with the piping.

00:20:45.028 --> 00:20:54.632
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So, so every time it was brought up on the project, people oh, I would prefer, you know, a water mist because it has this, those nice little pipes and and not, uh, big pipes like, like sprinkles have.

00:20:54.632 --> 00:20:58.147
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So perhaps let's talk, let's talk about that exactly.

00:20:58.147 --> 00:20:59.371
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So it's those differences.

00:20:59.411 --> 00:21:23.868
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yeah, it's very good point for attack and, of course, with the water miss system, especially with the high pressure, you are able to drop the size of the pipes which delivering the water to the 38, 42 millimeters, maybe 60 millimeters as a main pipe which is just going from the basement to the 52 floor, but with the sprinkler system we are talking about 150 to 100 millimeters.

00:21:23.868 --> 00:21:31.167
<v Bogdan Racięga>And then we are going to the weight of all this system, which is a crazy with the sprinkler.

00:21:31.167 --> 00:21:42.086
<v Bogdan Racięga>So, as I told, the sprinkler is good for some application and the water mist is perfect for some and for the high-rise buildings the water is really perfect because we are saving a lot of material.

00:21:42.086 --> 00:21:47.987
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then, with the materials, you have the penetration between the bulkhead, between the walls, between the floors.

00:21:47.987 --> 00:21:58.517
<v Bogdan Racięga>So all these penetrations are extremely expensive as well and these penetration sizes are as well higher in terms of the price if you have the bigger penetration as well.

00:21:58.517 --> 00:22:01.650
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this is something that is really good.

00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:08.844
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, we will get argument, but the water mist system has the stainless steel pipes, which is expensive Anyhow.

00:22:08.844 --> 00:22:17.028
<v Bogdan Racięga>If you're comparing the weight of the system and the price of the stainless steel, comparing to the weight of the standard seal for the sprinkler installation.

00:22:17.028 --> 00:22:29.029
<v Bogdan Racięga>The water mist win anyhow with the price Because if we are talking about the 22,000 of the high-pressure water mist nozzles, it's a huge weight of the system.

00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:33.846
<v Bogdan Racięga>So anyhow, there will be a beneficial for the water mist systems.

00:22:35.484 --> 00:22:41.160
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I know there's like this market battle between the water mist industry and the sprinkler industry.

00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:47.346
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You see it every day on on real world projects, where people try to replace one solution with another, both.

00:22:47.346 --> 00:22:48.209
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But I like that.

00:22:48.209 --> 00:22:52.667
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There are technical merits at which you can discuss and technical merits at which you want.

00:22:52.667 --> 00:22:55.717
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That is a challenging world, but I like that.

00:22:55.717 --> 00:23:04.351
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There are, you know, technical properties of the systems that you are able to to compare the solutions and actually find one that fits best for your needs.

00:23:04.351 --> 00:23:04.550
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Right?

00:23:04.550 --> 00:23:10.885
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I was noting down, you know, when you were dropping, a technical term we have not explained yet and I have quite a list right now.

00:23:10.885 --> 00:23:18.594
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>There's nominal working pressures, k-values, rti, discharge areas, the most challenging location, and so on.

00:23:18.594 --> 00:23:21.128
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So perhaps let's try and cover those.

00:23:21.128 --> 00:23:27.074
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's supposed to be an introductory episode, so let's try to go through the basics.

00:23:27.074 --> 00:23:30.630
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So first let's talk about the nominal working pressures.

00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:37.670
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You said that you would design for a nominal working pressure, but what does it mean and how much you can debate from that?

00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:38.540
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay.

00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:59.271
<v Bogdan Racięga>So when we are testing those systems in the laboratory, there is the specific test for the sprinkler or the water mist where we have to maintain the nominal working pressure in the test, which is the minimum nominal working pressure that the nozzle in real life, in the real installation, must achieve.

00:23:59.271 --> 00:24:02.131
<v Bogdan Racięga>The most probably depends on the calculation.

00:24:02.131 --> 00:24:11.587
<v Bogdan Racięga>This nozzle is the most furthest nozzle in the section hydraulic section and some of the nozzles which are closer to the pump has higher pressure automatically.

00:24:11.587 --> 00:24:17.664
<v Bogdan Racięga>And about the deviation for the example, for the low pressure mists we have the 5% deviation.

00:24:17.664 --> 00:24:29.374
<v Bogdan Racięga>So during the test where we have the 5 bar or the 8 bar for the low pressure mist system, we cannot cross below minus 5% and the plus 5% during the entire test.

00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:35.353
<v Bogdan Racięga>The same high pressure systems what we've seen in our laboratory conditions.

00:24:35.353 --> 00:24:42.371
<v Bogdan Racięga>Sometimes it's better to maintain the pressure in the high pressure system because the high pressure system has piston pumps.

00:24:42.371 --> 00:24:45.369
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means the characteristics of these pumps are very linear.

00:24:45.369 --> 00:24:51.165
<v Bogdan Racięga>So you are able, depending on the RPMs on your pump, to set precisely the pressure.

00:24:51.165 --> 00:24:59.029
<v Bogdan Racięga>With the low pressure system and with the sprinkler system you have the certificular pumps which have the specific curve and characteristics of the pump.

00:24:59.029 --> 00:25:07.692
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we need to deal a little with this characteristic and some unload valve, pressure reduction valve, just to set correctly the pressure.

00:25:07.692 --> 00:25:24.232
<v Bogdan Racięga>So those are the main system and the nominal working pressure always must be the nominal pressure in the installation and during the commissioning of the system, when the system is to the authority, this must be checked on this most remote nozzle in the hydraulic section.

00:25:24.574 --> 00:25:28.690
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>if you achieve those, I assume that you cannot have it lower, but what happens if it's higher?

00:25:28.690 --> 00:25:30.788
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Because if you're closer to the pump it must be higher.

00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:31.480
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay.

00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:36.972
<v Bogdan Racięga>So if you are higher with the sprinkler system, you are delivering much more water.

00:25:36.972 --> 00:25:48.728
<v Bogdan Racięga>But the sprinkler system of course does not cross like the 10 bar or the 16 or the 20 bar, so we can assume that it's better because you have more water.

00:25:48.728 --> 00:26:07.181
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, in the low pressure system you have this specific five percent because the nozzle of the low pressure mist system are designed in such way, very precise way, that the spray pattern above some limits may change, which affect the test criteria.

00:26:07.181 --> 00:26:11.590
<v Bogdan Racięga>If you are above, okay, you are delivering as well much more water.

00:26:11.590 --> 00:26:16.307
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means for the test criteria can be better with the high pressure systems.

00:26:17.269 --> 00:26:26.943
<v Bogdan Racięga>We found a funny discovery in the laboratory because all was thinking that sometimes 100 bar is better for the machinery, space and closure.

00:26:26.943 --> 00:26:34.906
<v Bogdan Racięga>And now, luckily, we get a very big project which we will do in the may, in and in the june and we test again.

00:26:34.906 --> 00:26:44.107
<v Bogdan Racięga>But two years ago we found that some of the tests you are not able to pass with the 100 bar, but you are able to pass with the 100 bar, but you are able to pass with the 60 bar.

00:26:44.107 --> 00:26:44.228
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay.

00:26:44.228 --> 00:26:56.212
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we are arriving to such a level that the droplets are too small and evaporation is too high because you cannot cool enough the object in the fire.

00:26:56.212 --> 00:27:01.151
<v Bogdan Racięga>So sometimes the bigger droplets helps better.

00:27:01.151 --> 00:27:05.590
<v Bogdan Racięga>That's why we seen in the reality this in our laboratory.

00:27:06.903 --> 00:27:11.800
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And now let's go to K-value, because you wrote K-value again and I know it's interconnected with pressure.

00:27:11.800 --> 00:27:14.926
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So what's K-value and how you described?

00:27:14.987 --> 00:27:15.047
<v Bogdan Racięga>it.

00:27:15.047 --> 00:27:22.651
<v Bogdan Racięga>So K-value is a specific value to the sprinkler head water mist nozzles which define the quantity of the water which can flow via specific sprinkler water.

00:27:22.651 --> 00:27:29.873
<v Bogdan Racięga>Mist nozzles which define you the quantity of the water which can flow via specific sprinkler head with the specific pressure.

00:27:29.873 --> 00:27:35.887
<v Bogdan Racięga>So where you have the K value and where you have the pressure, you can calculate automatically the flow rate.

00:27:35.887 --> 00:27:51.000
<v Bogdan Racięga>And with all these three values you can find the K value, like in the laboratory, some of the manufacturers arriving to the laboratory to check if the K value has this specific value, because we have quite precise flow matters.

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.750
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we can check this based on the flow rate and based on the pressure.

00:27:54.750 --> 00:28:07.348
<v Bogdan Racięga>So it's a pure mathematic that you can just calculate based on two of those values, the value number three, but there's also this, I believe, relationship between the pressure and the flow.

00:28:07.780 --> 00:28:13.249
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The more sprinklers you open, or the more nozzles you open, the less pressure you'll have in your system.

00:28:13.249 --> 00:28:17.570
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So that's why you cannot have too many open, right.

00:28:17.570 --> 00:28:24.701
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you open too many, you lose too much water and you start delivering not enough to every single nozzle operating.

00:28:24.701 --> 00:28:26.003
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Am I correct correctly?

00:28:26.464 --> 00:28:26.826
<v Bogdan Racięga>correct.

00:28:26.826 --> 00:28:38.842
<v Bogdan Racięga>So there are some standards, that's defining you how much a sprinkler has or water miss nozzle can be operated during the fire tests, and if you cross this quantity the test is failure.

00:28:38.842 --> 00:29:08.323
<v Bogdan Racięga>So then you have some factors in the test which you can change, which is that ceiling height, which is the bulb temperature, which is the RTI as well, always to arrive to the situation that the system is able again to maintain this fire to such way that stop in the specific area the fire and not more sprinkler heads or the water mist nozzle are operated from the ignition of the fire.

00:29:08.323 --> 00:29:15.002
<v Bogdan Racięga>So then in the reality, like for the car parks, you have the, like the nine nozzles approximately.

00:29:15.144 --> 00:29:19.840
<v Bogdan Racięga>Design of course depends of the spacing of the nozzle and the spacing of the nozzle.

00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:44.855
<v Bogdan Racięga>This is the value that we need to discuss as well, because the spacing is really critical value and especially for the water mist system, you cannot cross the spacing above this value which was tested in the laboratory, because you are in the really gray area, the same with the sprinklers that you cannot go above the specific spacing because you are going down with the density of the water immediately.

00:29:44.855 --> 00:29:51.630
<v Bogdan Racięga>So the spacing is a critical value and, as I mentioned nine nozzles for the car park approximately.

00:29:51.630 --> 00:29:57.932
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then for the water mist, we are testing the data center application with the water mist.

00:29:57.932 --> 00:30:04.272
<v Bogdan Racięga>Six nozzles for the area design, then some local application system for the four nozzle design.

00:30:04.272 --> 00:30:08.891
<v Bogdan Racięga>So depends how many nozzles you are able to open in the test.

00:30:08.891 --> 00:30:18.127
<v Bogdan Racięga>This is the definition for your most demanding area, or call it area of the operation in your specific sprinkler or the water mist system.

00:30:19.181 --> 00:30:21.689
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And in those spacings, how do you find it?

00:30:21.689 --> 00:30:24.450
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>By distance between the nozzles, by area of operation?

00:30:24.450 --> 00:30:27.409
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I don't know a radius around the nozzle.

00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:36.126
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, so with the sprinkler and the water mists you have just the distance between the nozzles, between the axis of the nozzles.

00:30:36.126 --> 00:30:37.891
<v Bogdan Racięga>Is it like a maximum minimum?

00:30:37.891 --> 00:30:45.569
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's a maximum, it's a maximum that you cannot cross because then you are above of the tested heat area.

00:30:45.569 --> 00:30:59.712
<v Bogdan Racięga>And example when you have the spacing 3.5, 3.5, typical for the OH1 sprinklers, you have like the 12.25 square meter area of the operation for this sprinkler head.

00:30:59.712 --> 00:31:06.144
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then when you have the water mist, five multiply five you have 25 meters area of the operation.

00:31:06.144 --> 00:31:16.307
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this is a kind of value that you can easily calculate in a specific room how much nozzles you need to just design that fantastic.

00:31:16.708 --> 00:31:19.252
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay, let's go to rti index.

00:31:19.252 --> 00:31:20.942
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>You've mentioned rti index.

00:31:20.942 --> 00:31:22.467
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>What does that characterize?

00:31:23.107 --> 00:31:23.388
<v Bogdan Racięga>okay.

00:31:23.388 --> 00:31:32.780
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this is the index which characterizes how fast the bulb is able to broke and activate the sprinkler head or the water miss head.

00:31:32.780 --> 00:31:54.421
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we have, especially in the old sprinkler installations, call it standard activation, which is rti above 100, that there is the fast response between 50 and 80 rti, if I could remember, and there is the rti which are fast or even super fast, especially in the water mist system.

00:31:54.421 --> 00:32:04.814
<v Bogdan Racięga>The rti are much smaller, like the fast or super fast is used, so those system, the sprinkler can just start earlier.

00:32:04.814 --> 00:32:09.968
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's important because this water misnos are using much less water.

00:32:09.968 --> 00:32:14.867
<v Bogdan Racięga>That's why they need to detect the quite quite fast as well the fire but.

00:32:14.907 --> 00:32:21.787
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But the rta is not the only thing that defines how quickly it will operate, because you also have the, the temperature rating on the bulb right.

00:32:21.886 --> 00:32:25.674
<v Bogdan Racięga>Correct and we are starting from the 57 Celsius.

00:32:25.674 --> 00:32:27.508
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then we have 68, 73.

00:32:27.508 --> 00:32:32.403
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this is again connected with the application In the office spaces.

00:32:32.403 --> 00:32:42.929
<v Bogdan Racięga>You can have the 57 Celsius and normally ambient temperature of this space, like where we are sitting in this office, is 20, 25 Celsius.

00:32:42.929 --> 00:32:52.559
<v Bogdan Racięga>Your minimum value on the bulb should be approximately 30 Celsius more, so then you are arriving to this 57.

00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:04.027
<v Bogdan Racięga>To avoid the false alarm and the incidental flooding of your office during the summer and the solar effect, for example, and the bulbs are also color-coded for use.

00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:10.348
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's why you would see sprinkles of different colors in different locations.

00:33:10.348 --> 00:33:22.900
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But is it possible that you have, for example, an ultra-fast or very fast sprinkler with activation temperature of, let's say, 71 and a slow sprinkler with 68?

00:33:22.900 --> 00:33:24.163
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yes, exactly.

00:33:24.204 --> 00:33:25.528
<v Bogdan Racięga>So theti?

00:33:25.528 --> 00:33:28.480
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's connected with the temperature.

00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:33.733
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means with each temperature you can have a different rti as well.

00:33:33.733 --> 00:33:36.019
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yeah, so this is important.

00:33:36.019 --> 00:33:37.584
<v Bogdan Racięga>How big is this bulb?

00:33:37.584 --> 00:33:41.472
<v Bogdan Racięga>How much this special liquid is inside to expand and broke the bulb?

00:33:42.182 --> 00:33:52.271
<v Bogdan Racięga>And I can give you a thing which on the market is wrongly interpreted when you have the lower temperature of the bulb the system is better.

00:33:52.271 --> 00:34:11.931
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's not exactly like that, because sometimes if you activate the system during the fire test too fast in the beginning, you have a few nozzles, not like one nozzle operated and not four nozzles around, and then this one nozzle is not able to suppress enough the fire.

00:34:11.931 --> 00:34:17.753
<v Bogdan Racięga>The fire is growing and it's too late when the next nozzle will operate and the test is a failure.

00:34:17.753 --> 00:34:25.414
<v Bogdan Racięga>That's why sometimes in the tests, the customers here starting from the the 57 bulbs, then they have the failure.

00:34:25.414 --> 00:34:49.516
<v Bogdan Racięga>They are changing to the 68 or 79 even, which is, for example, specific to the car park in fire tests, where you cannot have so low temperature because you have the gases in the car parks from the various things and you cannot activate the system, incidentally as well where you have no fire so it have the higher temperature on activation on the bulb, it's quite beneficial as well.

00:34:49.577 --> 00:34:59.675
<v Bogdan Racięga>But you cannot cross too much because there are the famous 141 bulbs which activation delay is really really high.

00:34:59.675 --> 00:35:26.706
<v Bogdan Racięga>And I can tell you the our discovery in laboratory, one of the tests where we were testing the data center with the one meter per second simulation of the wind, the data center which is coming from the cooling of the servers yes, 68 Celsius bulb where we had the thermocouple on this bulb activate with the 121 Celsius which was recorded on the thermocouple after two, three seconds.

00:35:26.706 --> 00:35:36.009
<v Bogdan Racięga>So when you have the cooling of this air, the bulb reacts differently as well because you immediately cooling this bulb itself.

00:35:36.009 --> 00:35:45.740
<v Bogdan Racięga>So it doesn't matter that the 68 Celsius, it means that you have the temperature around about 68, because it's always higher for the specific time than you have the temperature around about 68, because it's always higher for the specific time.

00:35:45.740 --> 00:35:47.284
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then you have the activation.

00:35:47.585 --> 00:35:54.355
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Yeah, I think this world actually of RTI and the activation is very, very interesting and we've done a lot of numerical modeling.

00:35:54.355 --> 00:36:06.268
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>That's basically the essence of the issue of Sprinkler and natural ventilation interaction, which definitely will become a podcast episode in the Fire Science Show in the future.

00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:16.253
<v Bogdan Racięga>If I can add to this simulation and the RTI, in the simulation you're always assuming that the bulb is fully exposed to the heat which is around it.

00:36:16.253 --> 00:36:27.746
<v Bogdan Racięga>In reality, different manufacturers have special cages for the bulbs, bulbs which, with these cages, immediately you are influencing this RTI.

00:36:27.746 --> 00:36:35.068
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this value theoretical one which you are loading to the simulation, sometimes manufactured by the manufacturer, are different.

00:36:35.068 --> 00:36:43.561
<v Bogdan Racięga>That's why the data from our firefighters show these differences between the theoretical RTI and the real time of the activation.

00:36:43.561 --> 00:36:49.309
<v Bogdan Racięga>We had discussion, I think, about this in the past, but this is a really, really important finding as well.

00:36:50.681 --> 00:36:52.648
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>If you would like a nuance on this.

00:36:53.422 --> 00:37:18.762
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I used to be testing the activation temperature for the bulbs for natural ventilators, which are essentially the same bulbs that are used for sprinklers, or natural ventilators, which are essentially the same bulbs that are used for sprinklers, and the procedure tells you to very slowly heat them up to their temperature and 90% of them should operate within a debated temperature, let's say, 3 degrees away of that.

00:37:18.782 --> 00:37:35.581
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But while we had a bunch of bulbs that were operating within their activation temperature when heated independently, bulbs that were operating within their activation temperature when heated independently, if you put that bulb into a link, into the mechanism that is used, so there's a spring, it's kind of under tension, correct.

00:37:35.581 --> 00:37:38.610
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It took a lot higher energy to operate the bulb.

00:37:38.610 --> 00:37:48.768
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>One reason could be the heat losses to the spring mechanism, which was already recognized by Heskestad, the creator of this, and FM Global.

00:37:48.768 --> 00:37:54.449
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So there is a corrected version of RTI model that includes a C1 constant that includes for that.

00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:59.032
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>But I believe there was also a mechanical effect of loading the bulb.

00:37:59.032 --> 00:38:07.226
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So if there's some tension on the walls it may take more force to break them like, uh, like a tensile structure of your building.

00:38:07.226 --> 00:38:10.519
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So it's a very interesting mechanism it's really interesting.

00:38:10.699 --> 00:38:12.023
<v Bogdan Racięga>I found a few patterns.

00:38:12.023 --> 00:38:22.250
<v Bogdan Racięga>I can tell you that there is a possibility to increase, uh, the flow of the heat around the bulb, to make a turbulence and speed up the activation as well.

00:38:22.250 --> 00:38:32.365
<v Bogdan Racięga>So I'm studying this a lot because it's quite interesting to see these developments versus the test results and we found this very interesting.

00:38:32.365 --> 00:38:45.402
<v Bogdan Racięga>Some of the sprinkler heads, concealed, for example, above the nozzles, has a special holes to increase the heat transfer above the bulb to activate the bulb, above the bulb to activate the bulb.

00:38:45.804 --> 00:38:47.248
<v Bogdan Racięga>So, it's a pure engineering.

00:38:47.248 --> 00:38:51.402
<v Bogdan Racięga>Sprinkler engineering and the water mist guys are doing exactly the same.

00:38:51.402 --> 00:39:11.556
<v Bogdan Racięga>And just to comment, the bottle between the water mist and the sprinkler I really believe that this is not the way to go, because sprinkler industry currently there are a few companies which add to their portfolio the water mist nozzles as well, because the water mist nozzles start to be really successful.

00:39:11.556 --> 00:39:47.827
<v Bogdan Racięga>So, when they are making this battle, because there is some association in europe, uh, which is sprinkler, which is the water mist, and this one with the sprinkler is working a lot with the water missile already, so this is going in very good way yeah, okay, uh.

00:39:48.007 --> 00:39:57.822
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Another one on my list is this church and I would like to ask you about do you even quantify where the water goes from the device when you test it and how uniform that is?

00:39:58.384 --> 00:40:12.264
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yeah, okay, so when we have the water misdosen, all the sprinklers installed in the ceiling, we have the installation with the mostly with the Coriolis flow meters and then we have the total flow rate.

00:40:12.264 --> 00:40:15.349
<v Bogdan Racięga>It depends how many heads are operated.

00:40:15.349 --> 00:40:25.324
<v Bogdan Racięga>But after the tests, always as our procedure, we are testing these nozzles, which was activated as a single nozzle, only to confirm this K-value.

00:40:25.324 --> 00:40:46.219
<v Bogdan Racięga>Because as a sample, as an ISO 7025 laboratory, we are just receiving a sample of the nozzles with the specific K value and our responsibility as a laboratory is confirm that the statement of the manufacturer is correct or we need to just change the K value because this K value is completely different, like in the statement for the manufacturer.

00:40:46.219 --> 00:40:48.789
<v Bogdan Racięga>Maybe in my life I have the two three times.

00:40:48.789 --> 00:40:55.208
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then K value was not calculated correctly, so, based on the laboratory values, this K-value was updated.

00:40:55.208 --> 00:41:04.242
<v Bogdan Racięga>But the nozzles which are arriving to our laboratory mainly are prototype nozzles and after it's this process of the implementations to the real product in the life.

00:41:04.717 --> 00:41:06.143
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>And what about the water on the floor?

00:41:06.143 --> 00:41:10.981
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Because you said about what's being released, but I'm asking where it goes.

00:41:10.981 --> 00:41:12.204
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I know the bucket test.

00:41:12.204 --> 00:41:14.181
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I wanted to lead you into the bucket test.

00:41:14.382 --> 00:41:14.864
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yeah, okay.

00:41:14.864 --> 00:41:18.144
<v Bogdan Racięga>So previously we discussed about the performance test.

00:41:18.144 --> 00:41:22.581
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we don't care about the water which is on the floor, we do not quantify them.

00:41:22.581 --> 00:41:30.663
<v Bogdan Racięga>We have just the water which is coming to the nozzles, because we have in the data acquisition system the constant information how much water is going.

00:41:31.114 --> 00:41:56.699
<v Bogdan Racięga>But if we are going to the component tests to address, for the sprinkler nozzle or the water mist nozzles, what is the spray pattern and how it looks, the distribution of the water around these nozzles, because the people of course have seen the cone and the spray pattern so we have the bucket tests, so the nozzle or the sprinkler head is set on the specific height, as per protocol.

00:41:56.699 --> 00:42:14.856
<v Bogdan Racięga>Then we have a network of these buckets and we are releasing the nominal working pressure with the water on this head and after a certain time we are measuring if there are any holes in this area, that the water is not discharged enough.

00:42:14.856 --> 00:42:27.077
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we seen that there's some problem with the deflector, with the spray pattern or with some holes in the nozzles even okay, cool, I I love the bucket test and, uh, you also brought up a concealed sprinklers.

00:42:27.336 --> 00:42:29.523
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I don't think we've touched that in the episode yet.

00:42:29.523 --> 00:42:30.905
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So what's a concealed?

00:42:30.925 --> 00:42:31.306
<v Bogdan Racięga>sprinkler.

00:42:31.306 --> 00:42:32.795
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, so I think it's a sprinkler that when you see in the shopping mall in the episode.

00:42:32.795 --> 00:42:33.764
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yet so what's a concealed sprinkler?

00:42:33.764 --> 00:42:38.445
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, so, concept thinker, is a sprinkler that when you see in the shopping mall, in the ceiling, you do not see them.

00:42:38.445 --> 00:42:47.117
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, those are invisible almost because it's a special cover which is covering the sprinkler and this cover has a thermal link.

00:42:47.117 --> 00:42:55.510
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means when you have the fire below this concealed sprinkler, this thermo link must activate and open the sprinkler.

00:42:55.510 --> 00:43:14.938
<v Bogdan Racięga>So firstly, you have the activation of this cover which is just dropping down, and there inside is a bulb, or there is no bulb, it depends on the design of the sprinkler, or water miss head, which is just pop up from the ceiling, and then you have the nozzles which previously was invisible, the ceiling, and then you have the nozzles which previously was invisible.

00:43:14.958 --> 00:43:29.059
<v Bogdan Racięga>I would like to comment one thing only that some of the standardization bodies do do not like those solutions, because I seen many times in the hotels, in the shopping malls, on the ceiling, that the painters which paint the ceilings paint these covers together.

00:43:29.059 --> 00:43:31.844
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this system is already off.

00:43:31.844 --> 00:43:37.059
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's shut off because the paint is already on this link and the paint is glued.

00:43:37.059 --> 00:43:43.039
<v Bogdan Racięga>So if you have the thermo link activated, the cover is not able to be detached and activate the sprinkler.

00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:48.840
<v Bogdan Racięga>I've seen this many times and this is connected with the problem about the service and the maintenance of the system.

00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.304
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this is the smaller risk, despite.

00:43:51.304 --> 00:43:57.523
<v Bogdan Racięga>The architects love this solution Because the sprinkler head on pictures.

00:43:57.963 --> 00:44:03.161
<v Bogdan Racięga>You know, in the Photoshop the sprinklers are completely removed because they're not nice items.

00:44:03.161 --> 00:44:08.507
<v Bogdan Racięga>But with the concealed sprinklers this looks very nice, especially for the yacht industry.

00:44:08.507 --> 00:44:11.639
<v Bogdan Racięga>They really like in the marine the concealed sprinklers.

00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.766
<v Bogdan Racięga>And the water nozzles are concealed as well.

00:44:15.717 --> 00:44:18.657
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I actually like the look of the sprinklers in the building.

00:44:18.657 --> 00:44:20.657
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I don't find them very ugly.

00:44:20.657 --> 00:44:25.523
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I think it's nice to know that someone has invested in safety.

00:44:26.617 --> 00:44:39.465
<v Bogdan Racięga>I like too, and I can tell you that the spacing when we are testing between the concealed sprinklers and the standard sprinklers and the standard sprinkler with the bulb exports are less because of this delay in that.

00:44:39.706 --> 00:44:50.074
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>okay uh, and for the end, when, when you are testing those devices, there are also, like sprinkler or water mist, specific testing systems.

00:44:50.074 --> 00:45:03.166
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So can you tell me about about this world ofUL and other stuff that you have to be certified for to be able to do those tests and the families of protocols that you work with?

00:45:03.768 --> 00:45:07.751
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yes, so you use the very dangerous word which is a certification.

00:45:07.751 --> 00:45:11.385
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, so ISO 7025 is a test laboratory.

00:45:11.385 --> 00:45:13.282
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's not the place for the certified IDs.

00:45:13.282 --> 00:45:18.463
<v Bogdan Racięga>It's a place where you can test something, which is a process of the certification.

00:45:18.463 --> 00:45:32.682
<v Bogdan Racięga>I had a small unpleasant discussion about the power of the ISO 7025 because someone is telling that with the ISO 7025, you are able to issue the certificates.

00:45:32.682 --> 00:45:33.840
<v Bogdan Racięga>You are not allowed to issue the certificates.

00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:35.269
<v Bogdan Racięga>No, you are able to issue the certificates you are not allowed to issue.

00:45:35.269 --> 00:45:59.686
<v Bogdan Racięga>No, you have to be notified Exactly, and ISO 17065 is a certification body which is reading your reports from the 17025 and then issue the certificate for the specific test method which was tested in our laboratory and we found the pass or fail criteria for those.

00:45:59.686 --> 00:46:02.820
<v Bogdan Racięga>So it's not our laboratory.

00:46:02.820 --> 00:46:10.443
<v Bogdan Racięga>But we've seen a lot of now words with the magic systems that are working so good and are certified by the Terpar body.

00:46:10.443 --> 00:46:15.788
<v Bogdan Racięga>The ad hoc tests are completely not tests for the certification.

00:46:15.788 --> 00:46:18.380
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we must be very clear with this.

00:46:19.625 --> 00:46:20.186
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I'll plug in.

00:46:20.186 --> 00:46:31.255
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I had an episode with Abhishek Chhabra about assurance industry and we've went quite deep into 17025, 17065, and the roles of laboratory and certification bodies.

00:46:31.255 --> 00:46:35.365
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So I would highly recommend not be incorrect as me.

00:46:35.365 --> 00:46:36.849
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Go listen to that episode.

00:46:37.213 --> 00:46:37.414
<v Bogdan Racięga>Correct.

00:46:37.414 --> 00:46:47.663
<v Bogdan Racięga>I spent a very nice discussion with Abishek in Dubai on Intersect this year, so he's a really, really good guy in this area, so definitely I can recommend this episode as well.

00:46:47.663 --> 00:46:50.202
<v Bogdan Racięga>And about the FMUL.

00:46:50.202 --> 00:47:25.436
<v Bogdan Racięga>Okay, this year the biggest success which I was working quite hard like the last nine months is to get the UL acceptance and be a partnership laboratory with them for the UL mark certification by the UL, like the UL2167, ul12167a for the water mist system, ul162 for the foam system and UL2775 for the aerosol system.

00:47:25.456 --> 00:47:32.860
<v Bogdan Racięga>So imagine that all these protocols from the UL is part of our ISO725 scope of accreditation, is part of our ISO 725 scope of accreditation.

00:47:32.860 --> 00:47:46.409
<v Bogdan Racięga>It means in front of the PCA Polish Certification of Accreditation we defended that we have the laboratory infrastructure team and the competences to make those tests in the high standard.

00:47:46.409 --> 00:47:51.152
<v Bogdan Racięga>That's why we were able to be accepted by the UL, but we are not certified by them.

00:47:51.152 --> 00:47:53.708
<v Bogdan Racięga>We need to really divide this.

00:47:53.708 --> 00:47:54.195
<v Bogdan Racięga>The same FM Global.

00:47:54.195 --> 00:48:07.639
<v Bogdan Racięga>We have in our scope of accreditation FM 5560, which is the water mist system, and we are accepted laboratory by the FM to perform some full-scale fire tests which they allow us.

00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:21.762
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this is the case-by-case project when they are telling you can do this in the DFL and we did with them many, many turbine enclosure tests already and some data centers as well, but we are not certified by them again.

00:48:22.355 --> 00:48:25.891
<v Bogdan Racięga>So the certification is in the hand of the certification body.

00:48:25.891 --> 00:48:27.659
<v Bogdan Racięga>On the marine, it's a cross-society.

00:48:27.659 --> 00:48:30.480
<v Bogdan Racięga>On the land it's like the FM UL VDS, and so on.

00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.128
<v Bogdan Racięga>Land, it's like the FM UL VDS, and so on.

00:48:33.128 --> 00:48:43.942
<v Bogdan Racięga>So this certification award is so critical because the people are telling that they have the certified product, but when you start to investigate they have no certified product.

00:48:43.942 --> 00:49:01.976
<v Bogdan Racięga>They are just using the certification award for their own purpose, which is really not nice, and especially with the car park fires, with the EVs, vojtech you know how many different solutions we have, despite we have the spa standards for the car park.

00:49:01.976 --> 00:49:09.063
<v Bogdan Racięga>Fire protection with the sprinkler and the water mist and the pure water for the car park is way to go, absolutely.

00:49:09.434 --> 00:49:10.795
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Bogdan, I think we will stop here.

00:49:10.795 --> 00:49:28.804
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We have definitely not exhausted the list of questions that we had, but this gives us space for a follow-up episode in the nearby future, and I would really love to pick your brain one day as well on the aerosol systems, when you feel comfortable about that, because that's a very intriguing thing for the near future.

00:49:28.804 --> 00:49:30.706
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Intriguing thing for the near future.

00:49:31.226 --> 00:49:42.293
<v Bogdan Racięga>Yeah, exactly, and the arousal system are widely used now and after the summer school which we had together with the ITB and the BFL, I got very nice questions from the students from the school.

00:49:42.293 --> 00:49:48.030
<v Bogdan Racięga>So we are working quite hard just to explain what is the good application for the arousal systems.

00:49:48.030 --> 00:49:51.284
<v Bogdan Racięga>We are running a lot of foam systems.

00:49:51.284 --> 00:49:55.202
<v Bogdan Racięga>Especially in this transition of the foam, it's a good topic as well to discuss.

00:49:55.202 --> 00:49:57.474
<v Bogdan Racięga>So thank you very much.

00:49:57.474 --> 00:50:06.195
<v Bogdan Racięga>It was again great pleasure to discuss with you and hopefully we will explore more suppressions and the extinguishing system in the future as well together.

00:50:07.197 --> 00:50:12.389
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The explanation you gave me at the beginning is so easy and intuitive and it makes a lot of sense.

00:50:12.389 --> 00:50:33.161
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>It's just you're not really taught that you know in in your fire safety engineer education, which is which is a pity, and that's why, uh, podcast shows like this are necessary for a good continuous education of fire safety engineers like myself yes, and good luck, uh, in zakopane next week for the conferences, for your speech and the kuba's speech.

00:50:33.181 --> 00:50:33.925
<v Bogdan Racięga>Fingers crossed.

00:50:33.925 --> 00:50:45.036
<v Bogdan Racięga>There will be some information about the water system from Poland, but I think I'm not yet ready for the Polish water systems, so we will see how this will work.

00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:46.543
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>We'll update you.

00:50:46.543 --> 00:50:47.257
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thanks, bogdan.

00:50:47.257 --> 00:50:49.876
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Okay, thank you very much and that's it.

00:50:49.876 --> 00:50:50.681
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you for listening.

00:50:50.681 --> 00:50:53.615
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope, even though those were basics of suppression and extingu it.

00:50:53.615 --> 00:50:53.882
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you for listening.

00:50:53.882 --> 00:50:58.811
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope, even though those were basics of suppression and extinguishing, you still found some interesting nuggets for yourself.

00:50:58.811 --> 00:51:08.378
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Even if you're 30 years into your career as fire safety engineer, I still hope there was something interesting in the episode for you, and that's that's why I brought bogdan in.

00:51:08.378 --> 00:51:11.762
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>He's not an not a salesman for those systems.

00:51:11.762 --> 00:51:18.411
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>He is operating a file laboratory that is specifically well-suited to test those systems.

00:51:18.411 --> 00:51:29.469
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>He knows their weaknesses, he knows their strengths and he's capable of speaking about those systems from a very unique perspective that not many people in the industry have.

00:51:29.469 --> 00:51:38.099
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Therefore, I found a fire science show a very suiting venue to host a guest like that and give you perspectives just like this.

00:51:38.099 --> 00:51:46.755
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Bogdan is a good friend and we have a good relationship with BFL, so always happy to host a fellow Polish fire safety leader.

00:51:47.356 --> 00:51:52.623
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>In the podcast For me myself, I have cleared out suppression versus extinguishing.

00:51:52.623 --> 00:51:59.739
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now it's clearly laid in my head when should I call a system in a very specific way, and it actually matters.

00:51:59.739 --> 00:52:04.706
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I've also learned a lot about the differences between the systems and some challenges.

00:52:04.706 --> 00:52:06.675
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>The bit about the pumps was very interesting.

00:52:06.675 --> 00:52:13.335
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I didn't know that for water mist, for example, you would use different pumps like piston pumps that would have linear characteristics.

00:52:13.335 --> 00:52:20.949
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Now it feels quite obvious that you do, but it's another interesting bit that you can only learn from fire professionals.

00:52:20.949 --> 00:52:31.646
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>I hope this was an interesting episode for you and you would like to have more fire fundamentals coming your way in the Fire Science Show, and I can only promise that we will deliver more.

00:52:31.646 --> 00:52:41.195
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>So that would be it for this week's episodes, and I'm looking forward to see you back in the Fire Science Show next week.

00:52:41.195 --> 00:53:09.476
<v Wojciech Węgrzyński>Thank you.