Catching up on e-commerce with Robbie

 Welcome to the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 Here is your host, Ryan Alford.
 Hey guys, it's Ryan Alford.
 Welcome to the newest edition of the Radcast.
 Probably we're calling it the Radcast now.
 The Radical Marketing Podcast is now the Radcast.
 I feel a little bit more rad right now.
 Hey, you are always radical.
 I'm joined by my partner in crime, Robbie Fitzwater,
 my friend, associate, confidant, and all around favorite person.
 And reason you have bad judgment in friends.
 Robbie, good to have you here.
 And as always, and as I mentioned, Prisha,
 today's episode of the Radcast is brought to you by Monster Energy Drinks.
 Unofficially, officially, it's keeping me afloat.
 I had a little bit of a later night than I planned last night doing a little work.
 But excited to be here with you today.
 Excited to be here too.
 I didn't have his late of a night probably.
 You're a little bit cooler than I am sometimes.
 Feeling a little bit old, getting better early now these days.
 You guys still got this quasi newborn at home.
 Just to balance the schedules.
 Lots of very rigid schedules when you're transitioning with a 13 month old now.
 Oh, you're over a year.
 You're a toddler.
 I guess, right?
 Toddler, he's walking now and it's good.
 Oh, boy.
 We're taking our life into our own hands.
 Oh, yeah, you're in it.
 Well, cool, man.
 I know we want to talk today a little, you know,
 the state of business and marketing here in July of 2020,
 and also known as the Twilight Zone.
 You know, we talked, you know,
 the impact of both empathy and what we're seeing in e-commerce.
 And just in business as a whole talking some of the insights and trends.
 But man, what a weird year it's been, huh?
 I mean, yeah, I think 2020 is just absolute.
 Yeah, you punch in the teeth at a little bit of everything.
 I feel like everybody's just kind of on a roller coaster waiting for it to end.
 I'm trying to figure out like, maybe it's going to slow down in August.
 Maybe it's going to slow down in September.
 But right now, everybody's kind of thrown for a loop.
 I think we throw like some of the biggest change in decades into a few months.
 And that's our lives trying to try to adjust and accommodate for it.
 And yeah, over 100 days in, it's been a little bit interesting.
 I think I feel like for everybody just kind of trying to find that
 what a new normal looks like, kind of find like a cruising speed.
 And yeah, finding a blend of where life ends and work begins,
 where the weekend is versus what's during the weekend.
 It's all kind of the same right now.
 And I think it's, you know, to that point, like we've transitioned to this,
 I think, you know, something like this happens in the market changes
 and all these snowballs start really advancing downhill.
 You're still kind of like prepping for.
 But it's going to go back to normal, you know, like in another two weeks.
 Or like you tell yourself that I think for the first month,
 or in the second month, and now we're three and a half months in.
 And, you know, the new normals certainly overplayed.
 It's now like this is somewhat of normal.
 You know, like this is the things that have happened
 and they're transpiring in commerce and in business and in marketing
 and in customer service.
 I think we'll dive into our here.
 And this is the reality of now.
 I mean, it's similar to kind of the first time everybody used an Uber.
 I feel like it's, you used an Uber the first time.
 At first, it was a little bit intimidating,
 kind of embracing a new behavior and trying something different
 because you're getting into a new car or you're getting in with somebody you don't know.
 But a lot of people tried it and after that first time,
 it's a lot easier to do those things.
 And you realize, hey, that saved me a lot of time.
 Maybe next time I travel in a city, I'm not going to get a rental car.
 I'm just going to take a few Uber's.
 And a lot of the way that we've kind of changed our behavior kind of files
 in that same category where we're trying something we tried new things.
 Some things we may use moving forward,
 but sometimes some of these things we're probably going to definitely going to use moving forward
 because it saves us time, it saves us frustration.
 And at the end of the day, it's another way for a business or organization to connect
 in a powerful way that adds value to the customer and kind of is a nice transaction
 for both parties.
 And you see, again, Grocery Store, an online delivery right now,
 I don't know if my wife and I, we tried it here during the pandemic
 and it'll be hard to go back at this point just because we're used to purchasing from our phones.
 We have all of our orders ready to go and we can have our delivery ready to go within the day
 and it just makes it seamless and easy for us.
 Again, having a 13 month, a 13 month local home,
 it also makes it nice not to have to navigate the kind of the treacherous place that is the Grocery Store.
 Again, it's kind of a death trap now, but for a 13 month old,
 again, it could be dangerous for a little man trying to grab everything.
 But trying to navigate that same time and energy,
 it saves us a lot of time and a lot of effort.
 It's going to change the way we shop, though, because the switching costs are suddenly higher
 because if we haven't ordered it in the past, it's not on our previous orders.
 And from a brand perspective, that brand really matters and really is important
 because if you're picking it from, if you're picking an assortment of products
 just kind of from your screen, like you want an e-commerce business,
 that brand that's recognizable on a new environment,
 it's pretty important.
 If you purchase it once, you're going to probably purchase it again
 because it's easy and it's efficient for you.
 So, I think there's some really super fascinating components
 just in that area alone that are going to be just exciting to kind of see moving forward.
 And sorry, I jump into the weeds there, but...
 No, it's good.
 It's funny when you think about it.
 Going to the Grocery Store sucks.
 Like, I'm sorry, I know there's some men, some women out there
 that might enjoy that experience.
 But I think I can speak for the majority and saying,
 you don't really enjoy going spinning an hour at the Grocery Store.
 If I could sit there and catch up on Game of Thrones or whatever I'm doing
 and click, click, click.
 How much better is that?
 I mean, and you know, like we talked about a pretty episode,
 like these sacred cows, like, well, you're never going to go...
 You know, we started buying books online and we started buying other things.
 I'm never going to buy groceries because I got to see, I got to fill that bread.
 I got to know those grapes are ripe.
 And you know, it's a sacred cow.
 We're not going to...
 We're never going to shop for groceries online.
 But good grief.
 It made sense 20 years ago.
 It most certainly makes sense now.
 And it's like, that's...
 These are the sacred cows that need to be just moved out of the way
 so that we can really start advancing the ball in a lot of businesses.
 And I think that's...
 If we have one thing to counsel businesses is to be thinking,
 like, anything that's been sacred based on in person
 or some unnecessary system of delivery should be rethought right now.
 Right.
 And like, we see this happening in a lot.
 I feel like that's happening in a lot of industries right now too,
 because you see kind of some people that are taking this kind of opportunity
 and doing fascinating things with it.
 My wife was trying to purchase some face washer cosmetics.
 And as opposed to having a person kind of like set up a booth at a store
 and have like, have them kind of give her a consultate,
 a 101 consultation, she could do it over Zoom.
 And if you had a few people at scale,
 you could do multiple of those every day.
 And suddenly, you're scaling a one-to-one interaction
 and that person can opt in as opposed to passively walking along
 and seeing it in a mall or at a department store.
 So it kind of makes this one-to-one interaction
 or one-to-one engagement super, super, again, personal,
 really unique for that individual.
 And then it's just that human-to-human touch point
 that really maximizes that lifetime value,
 because we're really kind of yearning for that interaction
 that we're kind of missing in some ways.
 But how do they bring that to a digital space?
 It's not going to be completely the same.
 But if you can kind of change the direction of your approach to kind of promotion
 and kind of consultation with an individual product,
 there's a lot of different things you can do
 to kind of maximize that lifetime value.
 And it's going to be really profitable in the long run
 because they're going to be a lot more of a passionate advocate for that brand
 because they know this person who's an expert help me with it
 and to help me solve my problem.
 And I feel like scaling that is really kind of cool to see
 and where groups normally thought, hey, I need a sales team
 out in the field doing these things.
 Like they're suddenly saying, hey, why don't we put our sales team on Zoom?
 And hey, when this is all over, we may want to keep them doing this
 because this is a lot more effective for them,
 like they're going to sell more, so they look a lot better.
 And then it's a lot more efficient for customers
 because you don't have to go to the mall to suddenly get
 the insight you've looked for for specific products.
 Exactly.
 And talk about the evolution of e-commerce,
 like hearing you talk, I mean, I'm thinking like ideas right now.
 Think about an Amazon would make most sense.
 But think about any considered purchase
 or any consultative purchase.
 If on the e-commerce site, you're browsing.
 And right there, another's chat and stuff like that.
 But if someone can integrate the pop-up, like a live person,
 like you and I are right now, like pops up consult,
 like I'm looking at, let's use the makeup example,
 I'm looking at blush and I'm wondering
 if it has this chemical that might be bad for my skin
 or whatever those, my blush days are past me.
 But oh yeah, my blushing is when my two-year-olds
 has something he shouldn't have at his store,
 you know, about his bowel movements.
 But all seriousness, but that live, yeah, you got pop-ups.
 But you're going to see the integration of like a live person pop-up
 right there and there's going to be this demonstration.
 There's just so much opportunity for, you know,
 they talk about e-commerce and the future and everything's moving online.
 But now it's just like turning these dials of how much further
 can the customer experience, how much it can be approved
 when you kind of remove yourself from the notion that
 it has to be in person.
 Yeah, and so much, like so much discovery for purchasing
 used to happen in a store, in a location,
 like you would find the things that you wanted,
 like you didn't know what you wanted,
 but you would go find that you would find the ones
 that was kind of the perfect fit for you.
 But now so much discovery can happen in the digital channel
 that how do you kind of take what was an in-store experience
 at one point and bring it to the digital space.
 And that's where it's really kind of lining up where
 that high level of empathy around what somebody's looking for,
 what they need and how to serve them best is really
 becoming a differentiator for brands that are doing it well
 and the ones that are kind of leading the pack in so many ways.
 And like some of these groups are already doing it
 and they're just kind of expanding it now.
 But can learn a lot from some of the more innovative industries
 around, like again, cosmetics is doing some really cool stuff
 and some really fascinating things are happening there.
 But how do you apply that to other fields and other spaces, too,
 because I mean, I'm sure for clothing,
 that's the same thing exists, like you've had a salesperson
 helping you with clothing, like helping with fit
 or helping with like what to look for,
 like just going to go to my skin tone.
 And suddenly you can do that over a Zoom call.
 And there's lots of different verticals that fits into.
 So finding ways that you can do that,
 and even if you can't do it live,
 even positioning yourself like, hey,
 schedule a consultation with our expert,
 like our fitting expert.
 We'll have time at this time of the day
 and it's like a calendar where they just jump into it
 and kind of go into a conversation.
 It's super easy for everyone around
 and it just gives you part of your life back.
 And it's probably something that people are going to be looking for
 on a longer term because they want more niche products.
 They want products that speak better
 to who they are as individuals and who they are as buyers.
 So they're going to want something
 that's a little bit more human
 and a newer human experience through a digital channel.
 So trying to find ways to do that at scale
 is going to be really kind of interesting to see
 different people giving me a try.
 And I think that kind of leads us into
 that the whole notion of the opportunity
 importance of customer service.
 You know, everything we're kind of talking about.
 It's servicing, we're talking probably broadly
 about both new and existing customers.
 But the real, it's so funny.
 Like I worked working on large brands,
 you know, back in the day, even them,
 it acquisition was always the blinded tunnel.
 Like it was always acquisition, acquisition, acquisition, acquisition.
 Like 80, 90% of the time thought process.
 You go to the C-suite meetings.
 And it's, you know, you spend 90 minutes on acquisition
 and 10% on CRM or customer-based marketing or whatever.
 And now looking through the lens of the way
 with which you service your customers
 and the opportunity for increased LTV, increased upsells,
 you know, increased referrals.
 Like customer service is becoming as much
 or more important than any acquisition strategy.
 So again, it's knowing who your customer is
 and knowing what they need and kind of forecasting
 how to serve them best.
 Because probably the people that are coming back,
 like speeding to your point, like the cross-sell.
 Those customers are going to also be a,
 like they're likely going to order more or they're likely
 going to purchase more because they've consistently purchased more and more
 of a basket from your business.
 And if you've served them well, they're going to continue to do that.
 So once you, if you're a cosmetics business,
 like I can't, sorry, keep using cosmetics.
 If you buy a mascara, suddenly you buy a lipstick,
 you're probably going to buy both of those
 for a consistent period of time too.
 So your average order value doubles
 and that lifetime value increases as time goes on.
 And in a lot of ways, it's almost looking at this
 as like, how do you position your business?
 It's almost like a subscription model.
 So like thinking about this from like,
 how do we just keep people coming back in regularly
 and keeping them and maintain that relationship over time?
 Because it's super important because, again,
 counting to your point, that a customer acquisition
 is one way to grow a business.
 And nobody in every market has spent so much time
 and attention on that, like new customers,
 new customers, new customers, new customers.
 But you're not paying an acquisition cost on a second-time purchaser.
 And you're also not like, you're not really being forced
 to do much of it.
 If you're adding value to the relationship,
 you're probably going to be driving that lifetime
 about that average order value up to.
 So it just naturally makes sense.
 And that's kind of, you see a lot of businesses
 trying to pivot towards that model.
 Like, how do you get that, that almost like,
 I think that the, the, the, the,
 the Scott Galloway, the Rundle,
 like the reoccurring fund told that people are purchasing.
 And that's, I mean, such a positive thing to have for a business.
 And again, it's focusing on different things,
 but lifetime value is probably going to be that metric
 that's going to be kind of that North Star for so many more businesses now
 because you can suddenly see it, it has transparency.
 A little bit more transparency.
 And it's, it's a little bit better understood in the organization.
 But again, customer service,
 everybody knows about the bad customer service experiences
 it had, that the remarkable ones,
 the ones that really stand out,
 you, people almost tell, tell other people about them
 because like, it's so rare that you have like a remarkable customer service experience
 that it's, it's a, it's a different shader.
 And so many ways, like, that's the closest touchpoint to your business
 as your brand, as a brand that anybody's,
 that most people are ever going to get.
 So making that experience great
 and it's seamless is really important.
 Yeah.
 What, I don't know that we know yet
 the true economic impact, you know, that all this has me.
 Not most certainly you've seen marketing budgets,
 I think, come down pretty university.
 I think some stuff started to pick back up
 and, you know, we've been fortunate being on the digital marketing side
 that are in the e-commerce side, you know,
 which has been fortunate.
 But I'm still, you know,
 stopping sort of any prognostications on exactly what the,
 what the, the true economic impact is eight, ten months from now.
 I mean, what's your crystal ball showing on that?
 I mean, it's, there's already been drastic
 and all of those we can't keep printing money, but.
 Honestly, like, if, yeah, I mean,
 and normal times would be like, I think,
 this, these are the reasons I think this is going to happen.
 I just like, 2020 is just such a dumpster fire.
 Like, this is a, of yours to make a prediction.
 Like, this is absolutely going to be wrong.
 I think a lot of those, again, kind of that share of wallet
 where those dollars are going,
 it's going to, are going to stay in a lot of those channels,
 I think, because it's gone over there.
 It takes between like 21 and 30 days for a new behavior,
 for a new behavior to become a habit.
 And I think a lot of these cases where people are trying,
 like, again, grocery delivery or a lot of these things,
 I think they're going to continue on.
 I also think some of these businesses are going to see,
 hey, this is an effective channel for us to be using,
 and from a business perspective,
 so we need to continue this onward.
 I think, like, I do see some drop from, like,
 where we're at now in Ecommerce sales going down slightly,
 but it went from like 15% to around 30% really fast this year.
 And if it goes on to 28 or 25%,
 it's still a 10% jump in a year that, like,
 we weren't really expecting it.
 And it took 20 years for it to get to 15%.
 Yeah, so, again, kind of people that have been kind of,
 the bandage been ripped off for so many people,
 them trying these new behaviors, trying these new things,
 it gets easier and easier every time.
 So next time they order online, they're like,
 okay, this is a Shopify store.
 I know how to use, like, they're going to send me a code to my iPhone
 for Shopify, and I'm going to use that.
 I don't even have to worry about my credit card information.
 Like, lots of ways to make it seamless and easy for them,
 and they're going to have more confidence doing that.
 So it's just kind of, you know,
 it'll be up in the air a little bit more,
 but I think the businesses that are really doubling down on
 how to make sure that they create a good experience
 and a valuable experience are going to be the ones
 that come out of this, begin stronger and better,
 because they've really kind of honed their craft
 and become better for the new world,
 we're going to be living it, whatever it looks like.
 You know, it just seems like as good a time as any,
 like looking at the landscape of e-commerce and changes,
 and since you used the word Shopify in that last time,
 I'll use it as a bridge,
 but the Walmart Shopify thing was just announced this week,
 and I think in any other moment in time,
 that would be like the cannonball into the water,
 but I think just because of the new cycle and everything else,
 it's not been quiet, but it's probably quieter
 than it would have normally been,
 but that's quite the behemoth of the news
 and the opportunity for, you know,
 the million plus Shopify small business,
 small medium businesses to have yet another channel,
 direct channel with which to market and sell products.
 It's pretty big news.
 I mean, it's, again, I love that they did this,
 and I'm so glad they did it as a partnership,
 as opposed to an acquisition.
 Yeah.
 I was convinced, like, truthfully, like Walmart,
 the natural next step made sense for Shopify.
 Like, they've been trying to do this for years,
 yet didn't work out the way they wanted it to.
 They've just never been able to really master
 the whole e-commerce thing,
 and even acquiring smaller brands like the Bonobos,
 those have never been as successful as they've wanted them to be,
 once they've been acquired by Walmart.
 So this is kind of their opportunity
 to kind of, like, distribute those shots.
 But again, it's a platform that gives those smaller groups,
 those kind of the mom and pop stores a lot of power
 and a lot of, and a lot of, again, opportunity
 because they are never going to necessarily outscale Amazon.
 They can do their, they can serve their niche
 and their community better than Amazon ever could
 because that's the only thing they specialize in.
 They care about it, they focus on it,
 and for them, it's this kind of, like,
 a blank canvas that they can really create a business on
 that kind of makes the friction of all the things
 you have to do so much easier.
 Again, you could probably speak to this as, like,
 again, building a Shopify website,
 how hard is it versus building a website 10 years ago,
 or five years ago?
 Yeah, it's, you know, nine day.
 I mean, really, the, you know,
 the things you had to worry about, you know,
 10 years ago, the cart experienced the product organization,
 it's written, it's complicated as all that stuff was.
 The integrations that are now just automatic
 through Shopify, the biggest opportunity
 to Shopify is really just the tech stack
 that you layer on top of it.
 And that's why you hire someone like an us
 or another firm or whatever, you know,
 is for the knowledge and understanding
 of those, the tech stack that you layer on
 and the purse and the branding of it,
 but good grief.
 I mean, now I can't even in my right mind,
 nine out of 10 businesses that would approach us,
 I would be putting on Shopify.
 I mean, you know, you and I have had this discussion
 many of times, you know,
 and even when we first started working together,
 you know, like, I had my, my,
 not because I love Shopify,
 but I was still of that mindset
 that it wasn't right for, you know, certain businesses,
 but as we're working with, you know,
 a fabric company that's got 20,000 SKUs,
 you know, and gladly putting them on Shopify,
 you know, my mindset has changed
 with just the power and the flexibility
 and the integrations that 10 years ago
 would have taken, you know, a dev team of 20
 and about $200,000.
 Yeah, a lot of people in a room
 and a dark room coding for days at a time.
 And then it's going to break,
 and then you're going to have to fix it
 and readjust and so much of that.
 It's like creating a Shopify account
 like if you wanted to create Shopify sort,
 it's like almost as easy as making your own Facebook page.
 Like you have to put like a few things here and there,
 like fill it in and make sure your payment gateway is okay.
 Really, it's super simple.
 And you can have one up in like a few hours.
 So it takes away all that friction
 that was there in the past
 and allows those merchants,
 that are really doing it well,
 to focus on what they do well as opposed to worrying
 about all those like nuts and bolts
 of running it back into the website.
 Like you just got to keep your business running and humming
 and it's going to be inefficient.
 It's going to be efficient business
 because they get to focus on either the marketing
 or the business as opposed to focusing
 on all the technical sides of the website.
 So it's a platform that kind of like an Amazon,
 it kind of distributes a lot of the power
 across the network.
 And there's more and more people see how it's done
 and see how easy it is.
 We're going to see more and more groups jumping on to it.
 I think Heinz Ketchup was made a Shopify account the other day.
 Like Heinz Ketchup.
 You never would imagine a CPG business jumping on Shopify
 but it's so easy and suddenly they can sell direct consumer.
 And guess what?
 When you sell someone on Amazon,
 like it's, that's Amazon's customer.
 Suddenly when you sell on Shopify,
 it's your customer and you can bring them back in.
 And that LTV can increase and increase.
 So for so many of those businesses,
 it makes so much logical sense.
 And it's getting easier and easier as the barriers go down.
 And then we're not reinventing the wheel every time either
 because like you said like the tech said,
 like somebody's figured out shipping with Shopify.
 So again, add a nap.
 Like somebody's figured out email with Shopify.
 Add a nap.
 Like it's just a simple easy thing you can do
 to make your process seamless.
 And hopefully, again,
 automate as much of that as much of the work you're not going to be as skilled at
 and really do good work.
 Yeah.
 And now you hit three buttons
 and suddenly your 10 to 2000,
 how many ever price you have can go straight to Amazon and straight to Walmart.
 And all of it go there syncing automatically
 at two of the largest marketplaces in the world.
 And it's two button clicks away.
 And so it's just unbelievable.
 It makes it really easy.
 And it's that's that's a game changer that it is kind of that it represents in so many ways.
 And then I know like Shopify fulfillment is trying to come online soon.
 So like they want to have like hey,
 if you can't warehouse it, you can't fill it.
 Like that's a big that's a big problem for a lot of groups like warehousing and fulfillment.
 Like it's more of a headache than you then a lot of people expect it to be.
 But if Shopify is doing that for you again at a percentage naturally.
 But if they're able to do that for you,
 that's another piece you don't have to worry about.
 So again, you can almost be product focused and product and customer focused.
 And you don't have to worry about the warehouse and you don't have to worry about the fulfillment
 because they can handle it for you.
 And it's it's just opportunities that they're opening up for for those
 those smaller retailers and smaller shops that are really exciting to see kind of moving forward
 because that's where the real magic in our economy is going to happen is because Amazon's going to grow.
 Amazon's going to continue to grow, but people are going to want more and more niche products
 because they really want to jump on board with the story of the business that makes it.
 Like you care passionately about some a few things.
 Like the commodity if people are going to buy on Amazon this small,
 again, really thoughtful niche products can be bought on Shopify.
 Exactly.
 What else are you seeing out there that, you know, feels news and noteworthy?
 I think we talked a little bit pre episode that I thought was pretty interesting.
 The whole how connected marketing is now to the entire, you know, you know, business.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 There was this, you know, you've got sales and marketing and customer service and operation and all this
 and now it just feels like marketing has not saying this say their hands,
 but definitely like just feels at the table and all of those.
 It's, it's, it's the reality kind of right now.
 And I think like, I think I mentioned it too.
 Like I think the CMO is a more likely role as a CEO next step as a next step and there ever was in the past
 because you have so many hands and so many cookie jars across the organization.
 Like if you blend together marketing with PR and then IT and then PR IT and the customer service,
 that's basically what marketing entails right now is like every different customer touch point in so many cases
 because you have to understand what the customer needs, what the customer wants and how they, how they think act and feel.
 And when finding a way to kind of tie all those together in a really seamless package is going to be kind of like a differentiator for so many businesses.
 So the marketer has to kind of wear so many different hats but they have to be kind of customer obsessed in so many ways because they're touching that customer in so many different places
 and finding ways to position the company like you hear feedback from customers who haven't been happy with with something or whatever.
 That's an opportunity for them to grow and change and it's it's kind of more magnifying this space because if you're on a digital,
 if you're in a digital space, the operations completely change and that storefront is suddenly your website or your app.
 And that's where so much of this interaction is happening and if the again lining those things up really smoothly and seamlessly is going to be a differentiator moving forward.
 And it's interesting how, you know, in a certain time and place, you had a product or service and you had packaging and you had marketing and I, you know, having worked on Verizon for a number of years.
 We had different cell phones coming out and it was droid and this and that and there's like, you know, the, the catchy campaign that was about that.
 It's not that there's not room for that anymore. There's still room for that. But now as a marketer, consumers want so much and deserve so much transparency in every single asset of where did you get the components of that thing?
 How is it made? Who was, who was working on it? What's, what's the makeup of your company? What's the, it's not just catch me with the gimmicky product and and win me my heart, mind and soul.
 Now there's just like this and I don't know if it's self brought on or if it's reality of consumers really want to know, but you have to like, the, the luggage of the marketer, you went from, I just had this carry on bag.
 And man, now I got the carry on bag, the two-week luggage and everything else that kind of go with me and how I tell those messages, you know?
 Yeah, I have to, I have to understand I had a message around supply chain transparency and like not having messaging that's not going to resonate and I have to understand how a tech stack works too.
 And just all of these finite things, it becomes really daunting, really fast. And like, again, there's opportunity for burnout there, but it's, it's kind of becoming that, again, a more and more important role.
 And in a lot of organizations, it's hard because it doesn't have the way to deserve so many cases. Like again, as a marketer, I feel passionately and strongly about this, but it's really hard to do all of those things at the same time.
 And in some cases, like you need a lot of people need to either delegate and get those off their plate or need more resources for the marketing, for the marketing organization or giving more power to the marketing, marketing piece of the organization to, to make those decisions and have, again, you're going to hear it before the, before the products up, before the product to shift after its shift, what their experience is like.
 And again, a lot more transparency because nobody buys anything without reviews anymore, like you go use reviews of the grocery store anymore. So like I want to creep on Amazon when I'm at the grocery store, like again, back in the old days, like 100 days ago, but you need that, like that's a kind of table stakes that people use now, like you don't make decisions without a review.
 So you need that social proof and you, again, that whole experience ties back into how do you make, how do you make a seamless journey for everyone and give them what they need along the, along that path.
 Yeah.
 These are interesting times, my friend, but always good to catch up. And you know, I think it's, the case studies that are going to come out of like this year will be fascinating.
 It's going to be, it's, yeah, I definitely think so. I think this will be one of the times that we just like look back and like, wow, that all happened, like that was all 2020 and just like 2019 was crazy enough, like 2020. Yeah, everybody's just hoping for a very nice slow down right now, like moving down, like, yeah, just trying to figure out a way to like make it a little bit slower, make a little more calm, but yet.
 Exciting things going on. What's been, what's the coolest project you have on the, in the, on the hopper right now?
 You know, we, I mentioned the fabric company, you know, there's a company that working with that's, you know, been a business for 30 or 40 years. It's not longer. I think it's three generations. I'm probably short-changing them 10 or 20 years.
 A long time and they're moving to e-commerce. They just have price and selection that will really immediately put them in the national leadership position with their e-commerce presence.
 It's fascinating taking something that's just been offline 100%. You know, a lot of times companies come to us and it's like improving a digital experience or improving e-commerce, but taking a historically always offline business that has the volume of opportunity that they have is fascinating and interesting scary and great at the same time.
 So, you know, they, they, they're leaning on us heavy and we're there to kind of, and that's both a responsibility, but also exciting because when you know you can help someone and it doesn't mean you know we get everything right or anything like that, but generally speaking we know we're doing.
 And so it's, it's fun watching that all come together and building that kind of from the ground up.
 It's, I mean, that is a taller order, especially a large organization. No digital presence and suddenly becoming an online brand.
 Yeah, so no pressure all there. No pressure, no pressure. We accepted gladly.
 Well, cool man. It's been good. I love catching up with you. Look forward to the next one and I hope everyone has a great forth, including yourself.
 And you've been traveling that closet now or bedroom.
 Yeah, this is this is our yeah, I guess better in this kind of studio now. Yeah, the studio. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
 Um, whatever, whatever our house is like, everybody's like on a spaceship right now.
 You're spending your whole life in one space. Um, yeah, have a good forth, have some good time with the fan.
 Maybe you'll probably get on a lake. I'm guessing. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We'll be on the boat.
 But cool, man. Well, that's all for today's episode of the Radical Marketing Podcast. Now, known as Radcast.
 My producer will be very upset if I don't start naming that more.
 Radcast and I appreciate Robbie Fitzwater coming on. Go follow Robbie on LinkedIn.
 Great insight. Great takes and we'll look forward to having him on soon. And we'll see you next time.
 You guys have a good one.