Episode 177 - The History of Third Man Factor

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<v SPEAKER_00>This episode contains a firsthand account of the events of september eleventh, two thousand and one.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It includes descriptions of traumatic experiences and may be upsetting or distressing for some listeners.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Listener discretion is advised.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Lunatics Radio Hour Podcast.

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<v SPEAKER_00>My name is Abby Brinker.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I am sitting here with Alan Kudan.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Hello.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Today we're going to talk about a widely reported phenomenon, something with more than 200 documented cases.

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<v SPEAKER_00>An experience that has saved lives in seemingly impossible situations.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And just like all phenomena, it's hard to define and even harder to understand.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Is it spiritual, paranormal, or maybe a trauma response in our own brains?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Today we are talking about third man theory.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Wait, does this have anything to do with the movie The Third Man?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, I don't think so.

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<v SPEAKER_02>The 1949 classic.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, I don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I've I've never seen Classic Noir.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I hate to admit.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It's a it's a it's a with the the gum shoes and the noir.

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<v SPEAKER_00>That's a good point.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Why don't we talk about the research and then at the end we can we can decide if we think it's inspired by the noir classic third man?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Well, here's the issue.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I I watched it back in film school and I don't really remember the plot.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Next week on Lunatics Radio Hour.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Alright, let's talk about our sources today.

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<v SPEAKER_00>An MPR article, Guardian Angels or the Third Man Factor, a TB Newswatch article by Lee Dunnock, Canadian last known person to escape World Trade Center on 9-11, and season one, episode 15 of the show The National Geographic Explorer.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The episode is called The Angel Effect.

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<v SPEAKER_00>On September 11th, 2001, Ron DiFrancisco was at work in the World Trade Center in Manhattan.

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<v SPEAKER_00>His office was located on the 84th floor of the South Tower.

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<v SPEAKER_00>After the first plane struck the North Tower, he could see smoke and fire from his building and sadly witness people jumping from the upper floors of the North Tower.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron returned to his desk and called his wife to tell her that he was safe and suggested that she turn on the TV.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He continued receiving phone calls from friends who are concerned about his safety, and at that point, no evacuation order had been given for the South Tower.

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<v SPEAKER_00>After speaking with a friend in Toronto, again, Ron was Canadian, his friend advised him to leave the building immediately, and Ron agreed to evacuate.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He tried to encourage colleagues to leave with him.

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<v SPEAKER_00>One of his coworkers, Mike, joined him as they headed towards the elevator banks.

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<v SPEAKER_00>While they were walking, United Airlines Flight 175 struck the South Tower.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Impacting floors 78 through 85, the plane's wing passed through Ron's trading floor.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Many of his colleagues likely died on impact.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron and his colleague Mike were thrown forward by the force of the collision and struck the walls.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They were covered by debris from the ceiling and walls.

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<v SPEAKER_00>At the time, Ron did not realize a plane had hit the building and believed an internal explosion had occurred.

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<v SPEAKER_00>After regaining orientation, they entered a stairwell to evacuate.

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<v SPEAKER_00>While descending, they encountered people moving upward who reported that lower stairwells were blocked.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron and others reversed direction and moved upwards.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He later encountered a section of drywall, which he pushed aside, allowing him to slide to a lower landing and resume descending.

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<v SPEAKER_00>As he continued down the stairwell, he passed through areas affected by fire and smoke.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The thick smoke was making it difficult for the men to keep going.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He passed by people laying down on the stairwell, many of them losing oxygen and giving up.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The floors were wet and cold.

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<v SPEAKER_00>People were, as Ron described it, going to sleep.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it's just this horrifying, scary idea that even like the smoke is so intense that even when you're descending and trying to escape from a building that's about to collapse, people are just giving up and like passing out from smoke inhalation and exhaustion on the way down.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, you used to work in the World Trade Center.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yes, for 10 years.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But but post-9-11 in in the One World Trade Center.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It just seems so terrifying to be stuck, to be trapped in a building where the the danger is beneath you.

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<v SPEAKER_02>The only way to safety is through the fire, which you cannot pass.

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<v SPEAKER_02>You're you're just stuck.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And of course, smoke rises, it fills the building, it gets more and more disorienting.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It just sounds awful.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I mean he was on floor eighty-four, and when the second plane hit, it impacted, like immediately impacted floor seventy-eight through eighty-five.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So he really had to go through every floor that not only, of course, to get out, but all of those floors where the plane had struck directly.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was just a nightmare.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I'm gonna quote from Ron here, quote, all that was left in Lucid was my desire to see my wife, Mary, and my four beautiful children.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Folks, I honestly thought that we were dying, he said.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron sat down, joining the many people on the stairwell.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But that's when Ron heard a man's voice, who told him to get up, quoting from Ron again, quote, that's when I heard it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Someone clearly and calmly guiding me to get up and come this way.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The faithful, and I count myself among you, by the way, will have very little trouble understanding what that means.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The more secular may believe it was my adrenaline-fueled synapses.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Here's what I do know.

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<v SPEAKER_00>If I ever hear a voice that clear, that calm, and that forceful telling me to get up, I'll do it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It made me get up, back on my feet, and I followed the voice back into the thickest of smoke and the fire.

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<v SPEAKER_00>End quote.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Hearing the voice and the encouragement was enough to get Ron out of the building.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And just to pause here, this voice literally told him, get up, go through this thick smoke and fire, like everything that your instincts would tell you, like there's no way out, I'm just like there's no way through.

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<v SPEAKER_00>This voice in his head said, You need to get up and go out now.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He reported diminished awareness of pain during this period.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He later reached a clear section of the stairwell and continued downward.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron DiFrancisco encountered three firefighters ascending the stairwell.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They instructed him to continue moving down.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Approximately 54 minutes after the South Tower was struck, Ron exited from the building into the courtyard.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He continued moving through the area surrounding the tower.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Shortly before the building collapsed, a security guard directed him underneath the structure towards the church street exit.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He encountered a friend named John.

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<v SPEAKER_00>As the upper floors of the tower began to collapse, they ran towards the exit.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron reported being struck on the head and losing consciousness.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The South Tower collapsed 56 minutes after it was struck.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And again, Ron exited the building 54 minutes after it was struck.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron is believed to have been one of the last people to escape the building before its collapse.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He regained consciousness several days later at St.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Vincent's Hospital in Greenwich Village.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He had burns covering approximately 60% of his body.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He had been intubated and sustained a head laceration and suffered a fractured vertebrae.

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<v SPEAKER_00>His contact lenses had melted to his eyes, and he survived his injuries.

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<v SPEAKER_00>In the years following the attacks, Ron rarely spoke publicly about his experience, citing survivors' guilt and concern for the families of those who did not survive.

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<v SPEAKER_00>He later chose to share his account publicly while speaking to groups and institutions.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Quote, I had burns over 60% of my body.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I had been intubated.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I had a sizable laceration in my head and a broken bone in my back.

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<v SPEAKER_00>My contact lenses were melted to my eyes, but I was alive, alive to join the rest of the world to try to make sense of that horrific day.

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<v SPEAKER_00>End quote.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Ron's experience has become one of the most well-documented instances of a phenomenon called third man factor.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And while it seems like science fiction, it's been reported by many, many people.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Again, around 200 known cases, typically in very extreme situations.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Situations where survival doesn't seem likely or possible, and the person starts to give up hope.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I actually remember this story.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It was pretty famous.

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<v SPEAKER_00>How did you hear about it?

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<v SPEAKER_02>It's hard to say.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, this was so long ago.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>But but if memory serves, like the the voice that he heard was either his own or it was like really, really familiar or something.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Something that immediately just like made him trust it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I I I can't even imagine being in that situation.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's actually interesting because the first time I I also had heard this story a few times.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The first time I heard it, and I can't remember where what that format was where I heard it, I had this version in my head that there was like a figure, like there was this third man that they were very aware of that like picked him up and was like, let's go, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>And that's why it was called this, because it was Ron, Mike, and then this third guy who wasn't Mike.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I didn't see him in any of these quotes, and I'm trying to use a lot of his direct quotes to as sources in this episode.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But that's something that I had taken away from previous encounters with this version, too, that it felt more physical than kind of these sources that I'm using are representing it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But but that National Geographic episode of whatever show that was that I talked about at the beginning, it actually has interviews with him in it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And that's a really interesting watch if you want to learn more about this and kind of hear him speaking about it directly.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But third man factor isn't just a known human experience.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's something that's used in variation, in horror, and even more broadly in pop culture all of the time.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But first, let's talk more about what third man factor actually is.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The third man factor, or third person syndrome, describes situations in which people report seeing an unseen presence that offers support or guidance during a traumatic event.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's most commonly reported by mountain climbers, but has also been described by solo sailors, shipwreck survivors, and polar explorers.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Today we're going to talk about some of the most famous examples of the third man factor.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Between 1914 and 1917, Sir Ernest Shackleton attempted to cross the Antarctic.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, here we go.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I know.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I'm sorry.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Don't apologize.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I feel like we've had our fill of winter horror.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Speak for yourself.

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<v SPEAKER_00>A journey that ultimately failed, but is remembered for its demonstration of human endurance.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Well, yes, the of course it's remembered for the endurance of the name of his boat.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Only you would pick up on that.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It's a good little trivia fact there.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, you're very impressive.

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<v SPEAKER_02>So are you.

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<v SPEAKER_00>In his 1919 book, South, Sir Ernest Shackleton wrote that he believed an unseen presence accompanied him and his men during the final part of his 1914 to 1917 Antarctic expedition.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And the name of his imaginary friend was lead poisoning.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The expedition had been trapped in pack ice for over two years, and Alan Pack Ice is.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I was about to ask you, Abby, do you remember what pack ice is?

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's when the ice is all kind of in different shards, and then it starts to pack and pack and pack you in, and you just can't possibly move your boat.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, it's floating ice and eventually becomes a solid floor.

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<v SPEAKER_00>If you go look at the East River right now, it's pretty.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So back to the Antarctic.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The expedition had been trapped in pack ice for over two years and faced extreme challenges while trying to reach safety.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Shackleton wrote that during a 36-hour march over mountains and glaciers on South Georgia, quote, d during that long and racking march of 36 hours over the unnamed mountains and glaciers of South Georgia, it seemed to me often that we were four, not three, end quote.

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<v SPEAKER_00>His account led other people who had experienced extreme hardship to report similar experiences.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So Shackleton has taken a detour, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>A 36-hour hike into the wilderness to look for supplies and signs of life and whatever else.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There's three men.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And he said often in that sort of, again, extreme cold in the early 1900s, so they don't have gear that's really properly protecting them and all this stuff.

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<v SPEAKER_00>That it felt like there was a fourth person with them.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Not a third, not a third man.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Well, they already had three.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They had just had a bonus man.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Bonus man.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Bonus man.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Bonusman.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Bonusman.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Poet T.

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<v SPEAKER_00>S.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Elliot was inspired by Shackleton's experience.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Lines 359 to 365 of Elliot's 1922 poem, The Wasteland, were inspired by this expedition.

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<v SPEAKER_00>This is all according to Elliot's notes.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The poem's reference to third man is the origin of the term used to describe this phenomenon, which can occur even to a single person in danger.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Well, there you go.

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<v SPEAKER_02>But just wait, wait, wait.

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<v SPEAKER_02>So the term third man came from the Shackleton expedition.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It came from T.

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<v SPEAKER_00>S.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Elliot writing a poem about the Shackleton expedition.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Where Shackleton was imagining a fourth man.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>That's just confusing.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So the poem itself is sort of about this ghostly presence or this, you know, again, what Shackleton describes as this unseen presence.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Here are the lines of the poem.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Quote, who is the third who walks beside you?

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<v SPEAKER_00>When I count, there are only you and I together.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But when I look ahead up the white road, there is always another one walking beside you.

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<v SPEAKER_01>Oh.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Gliding wrapped in a brown mantle, hooded.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I do not know whether a man or a woman, but who is that on the other side of you?

00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:47.039
<v SPEAKER_00>End quote.

00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:47.840
<v SPEAKER_02>That's cool.

00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:54.320
<v SPEAKER_00>A similar experience was described by mountain climber Joe Simpson in his 1988 book, Touching the Void.

00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.159
<v SPEAKER_00>His book documents his near-death experience in the Peruvian Andes.

00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:02.080
<v SPEAKER_00>Again, a lot of similar themes to the snow horror episodes.

00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:03.440
<v SPEAKER_00>I know, I'm sorry.

00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:13.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Simpson reports hearing a voice that encouraged and guided him as he crawled back to base camp after breaking his leg on Seula Grande and falling into a crevasse.

00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:19.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Some journalists have linked his account to the idea of a guardian angel or an imagined companion.

00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:32.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Stephanie Schwab is someone else with a similar story to tell, so she's also featured in this National Geographic video episode, and it's really fascinating to see her experience firsthand, again told by her directly.

00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:37.600
<v SPEAKER_00>Stephanie Schwab is someone who has spent much of her life exploring underwater cave systems.

00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.840
<v SPEAKER_00>She used to dive in caves called blue holes in the Bahamas with her husband.

00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:43.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Unfortunately, her husband died.

00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:45.360
<v SPEAKER_00>And this was about six weeks later.

00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.879
<v SPEAKER_00>She had not returned to diving yet, and she decided today was the day.

00:13:49.039 --> 00:13:52.559
<v SPEAKER_00>But she'd been afraid to dive alone since his death because they were diving partners.

00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And again, she just felt to this calling on that day to prove to herself that she could dive again.

00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:01.200
<v SPEAKER_00>She works as a geo-microbiologist, so doing these dives is also tied to her work.

00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:02.000
<v SPEAKER_02>That's cool.

00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:03.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, very cool, very impressive.

00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.440
<v SPEAKER_00>So she decides today's the day.

00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:07.440
<v SPEAKER_00>She goes out to dive, she gets all ready.

00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:10.720
<v SPEAKER_00>She actually successfully reaches the bottom of the cave, no problem.

00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:14.240
<v SPEAKER_00>Again, this is cave diving, so it's very claustrophobic.

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.000
<v SPEAKER_00>You can see a lot of video clips of this.

00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:17.279
<v SPEAKER_02>I'd rather not, thank you.

00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.279
<v SPEAKER_00>She reaches 98 feet in depth.

00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:20.399
<v SPEAKER_02>That's very deep.

00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:20.879
<v SPEAKER_00>Right?

00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:21.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Yes.

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:22.960
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't have you've you've dived before.

00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:25.120
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't have like a sense of how deep it is.

00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:29.120
<v SPEAKER_02>That's incredibly deep, especially in a cave.

00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:30.000
<v SPEAKER_02>That's crazy.

00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.000
<v SPEAKER_00>So like if when we go diving, right?

00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:37.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Like sorry, we've never dove, but like if we go snorkeling off of a boat or something, that's like what 20 feet?

00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:47.840
<v SPEAKER_02>If you are free diving without training, if you are just a casual person who wants to like give free diving a go, just think about swimming to the bottom of the deep end of a pool.

00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.240
<v SPEAKER_00>Sure.

00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.279
<v SPEAKER_02>It's really hard.

00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:51.919
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh the the pressure alone is crazy.

00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.240
<v SPEAKER_02>And that's what 15 feet, 20 feet?

00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:58.639
<v SPEAKER_00>Maybe if it's in like a professional pool.

00:14:58.960 --> 00:14:59.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:00.960
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm thinking like an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:01.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:06.159
<v SPEAKER_02>So, you know, I obviously she has a breathing apparatus to go deeper than that.

00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.000
<v SPEAKER_02>But when you are, you know, scuba diving, it's been so long since I've dove.

00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:10.399
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.639
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, I I don't remember exact benchmarks or or any benchmarks really.

00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:19.919
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh but to go down like 50 feet is a is a lot.

00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.159
<v SPEAKER_02>Because again, it's it's all about the the pressure.

00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:26.320
<v SPEAKER_02>And so the other thing is like usually like you are descending directly down.

00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:32.320
<v SPEAKER_02>If she's in a cave, she is going at a slant, she is meandering, it's back and forth, right?

00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.480
<v SPEAKER_02>And she still descends to a depth of 100 feet below the surface.

00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.600
<v SPEAKER_02>That's I can't even imagine how long that would take.

00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.879
<v SPEAKER_00>You know what I think about often at night while I'm falling asleep?

00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.080
<v SPEAKER_02>Harry Potter.

00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:45.759
<v SPEAKER_00>The Mariana Trench.

00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:46.240
<v SPEAKER_02>Why?

00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:47.440
<v SPEAKER_02>Because what about it?

00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.279
<v SPEAKER_00>Because it's so freaking deep.

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's like 36,000 feet deep.

00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:52.080
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh-huh.

00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:57.200
<v SPEAKER_00>And to me, it's inherently like it's the deepest part of the ocean, right?

00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:58.799
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:01.279
<v SPEAKER_00>There's something so innately scary.

00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And I love that I'm a big ocean gal.

00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.600
<v SPEAKER_00>Big, big ocean nautical family.

00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:07.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Love the ocean more than anything.

00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.399
<v SPEAKER_00>Lakes freak me out.

00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:18.159
<v SPEAKER_00>But being 36,000 feet and not knowing what's down there, I just feel like if there's things lurking in in this planet, which I believe that there are, they're there.

00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.440
<v SPEAKER_02>Do you remember what being the fear of um deep underwater is?

00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:22.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Traptomania.

00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:30.960
<v SPEAKER_00>I get a lot of um what's is that the same word for when there's like things under the water that shouldn't be?

00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:32.000
<v SPEAKER_02>That's submecophobia.

00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:32.799
<v SPEAKER_02>Submecophobia.

00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:34.159
<v SPEAKER_02>That's man-made things underwater.

00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:34.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, yeah.

00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.919
<v SPEAKER_02>I was trying to get the exact definition of philosophia, and it is it's just the fear of deep water.

00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:40.320
<v SPEAKER_02>Sure.

00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.159
<v SPEAKER_02>So you don't have to be underwater to to be to be uh jostled by it.

00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.559
<v SPEAKER_02>However, what also did popped up was megalo hydro philosophia.

00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:49.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Whoa.

00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:56.399
<v SPEAKER_02>Which is the the elevated version of this because it is the fear of large, often hidden objects or creatures underwater.

00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and I think that's actually like if I was gonna have any water fear, it's that.

00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:09.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Because even when I'm in a lake, when I'm swimming in a lake, I start to get like a little suspicious that there's some big thing under me watching me.

00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:10.880
<v SPEAKER_00>That's how I feel in like a lake.

00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:17.599
<v SPEAKER_02>Anytime I'm in water where I can't see the bottom, yeah, I just think about what what if all of a sudden I just fall?

00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:18.880
<v SPEAKER_02>You're basically, you know.

00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:19.920
<v SPEAKER_00>What do you mean fall?

00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:20.799
<v SPEAKER_02>Like you're in the air.

00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:25.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, you're like afraid of the distance between but like if you fall, you would die.

00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.359
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, but it's like fear of heights.

00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:28.640
<v SPEAKER_00>Right, that's so interesting.

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:30.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Which you're in water.

00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:31.839
<v SPEAKER_00>Right, so you couldn't breathe though.

00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.319
<v SPEAKER_00>Like you don't you want to be far from the ground.

00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:35.920
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh yeah, I guess so.

00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:38.319
<v SPEAKER_00>Because if you're on the ground, you're at the bottom and you're dead.

00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:44.640
<v SPEAKER_02>But all you have to do is think about the fact that you're like uh a fatal fall away over the surface.

00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:50.319
<v SPEAKER_02>And like it's just there's just a um, you know, there's just a fluid keeping you apart.

00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.359
<v SPEAKER_00>It's so interesting.

00:17:51.440 --> 00:18:01.440
<v SPEAKER_00>I have such an opposite reaction to the water because I feel like the water I float so easily and the water holds me, and I never feel like lighter and freer than when I'm I'm a sinker.

00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:03.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, you you have a a strange buoyancy.

00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:15.119
<v SPEAKER_00>But then when I'm especially when like a big wave comes, like a huge wave, and you get to kind of fall off the back of it, and it just feels like you're floating because you're not falling, but you're floating down.

00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:16.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I find it to be the most thrilling.

00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:23.680
<v SPEAKER_00>But I understand if my natural buoyancy was like 12 inches below the the water level that that would be different.

00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:24.400
<v SPEAKER_02>Indeed.

00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:25.440
<v SPEAKER_02>It's it's awful.

00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:29.839
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, James Cameron actually has made his way all the way to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.680
<v SPEAKER_02>He we went all the way to the bottom?

00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:32.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Pretty much, I think.

00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:34.640
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's like to the deepest, one of the deepest parts.

00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:37.279
<v SPEAKER_02>Right, because he had to go get the necklace.

00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:43.519
<v SPEAKER_00>But what's even crazier to me than him going down is that people went down in like the 60s or even earlier.

00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:45.680
<v SPEAKER_00>Like maybe in the 1800s, people went down.

00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:46.079
<v SPEAKER_00>How?

00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:51.200
<v SPEAKER_00>No, yeah, they had these little freaking machines, little submarine machines that they used.

00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:52.559
<v SPEAKER_02>Submersible.

00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:54.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, submersibles, yeah.

00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:55.839
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know, that's more impressive.

00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Like James Cameron's so rich, you know, he and crazy, but like going down there in history with the old diving mask.

00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:03.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know, that's scary.

00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.440
<v SPEAKER_02>You're telling me someone took their diving bell down to the Mariana Trench.

00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:17.359
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay, the first expedition, the first successful manned expedition to the bottom of the trench was January 23rd, 1960, by the U.S.

00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.759
<v SPEAKER_00>Navy, Lieutenant Don Walsh and Swiss engineer Jacques Picard.

00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And they reached the same depth that uh James Cameron reached in modern times.

00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, I thought I thought I really thought he had set the record.

00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:29.440
<v SPEAKER_00>No.

00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:29.839
<v SPEAKER_02>Wow.

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.079
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, he set the record for being the biggest loon.

00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:32.960
<v SPEAKER_02>He's a loon?

00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:34.319
<v SPEAKER_00>I think he's a bit of a loon.

00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:36.480
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, I I did see the new avatar.

00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:37.359
<v SPEAKER_02>Well, he's good.

00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.400
<v SPEAKER_02>He's a little nuts.

00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I've been boycotting them, so.

00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:40.720
<v SPEAKER_02>Why?

00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:41.759
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh yeah.

00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:42.880
<v SPEAKER_00>All right.

00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:46.480
<v SPEAKER_00>So let's get back to Stephanie Schwab, who's collecting samples, right?

00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Because her job is that she's a geo-microbiologist.

00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:51.200
<v SPEAKER_00>She's 98 feet deep.

00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:57.359
<v SPEAKER_00>She's collecting samples from dust that had settled hundreds of years ago from the Sahara Desert, which is also How to get there.

00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:58.319
<v SPEAKER_00>The Bahamas.

00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.279
<v SPEAKER_00>Wild.

00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:01.599
<v SPEAKER_02>Was it from Mount Vesuvius?

00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:02.160
<v SPEAKER_00>Could be.

00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:02.799
<v SPEAKER_00>We'll have to ask her.

00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:04.559
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't even know what where's Mount Vesuvius.

00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.200
<v SPEAKER_00>In Italy.

00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:10.799
<v SPEAKER_00>Anyway, okay, so Stephanie spends hours at the bottom of the cave collecting and then decides to head home.

00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:17.759
<v SPEAKER_00>Being not used to diving with her partner who was in charge of the guideline, she suddenly starts to panic because she can't find the guideline.

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:18.160
<v SPEAKER_02>Sure.

00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:23.599
<v SPEAKER_02>Don't, yeah, don't do oh my god, you're under sorry, so she has a depth of nearly a hundred feet.

00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:24.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Yep.

00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:25.599
<v SPEAKER_02>She loses her guideline.

00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:31.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, I'm sure she has lights, but there's no light available because it's a fucking cave.

00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.640
<v SPEAKER_02>It's so disorienting.

00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.119
<v SPEAKER_02>And the only way to like even know what you don't even know if like you have to go up, you know?

00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:39.359
<v SPEAKER_02>Because like maybe you have to go down to go back up.

00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:40.720
<v SPEAKER_00>And here's the other thing.

00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.960
<v SPEAKER_00>According to her gauge, she looks down.

00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:44.799
<v SPEAKER_00>She only has five minutes of air left.

00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.160
<v SPEAKER_01>Well, that's not great.

00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:48.880
<v SPEAKER_00>She was sure that she was going to die.

00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:49.680
<v SPEAKER_01>No shit.

00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:51.279
<v SPEAKER_01>What terrible planning.

00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:52.799
<v SPEAKER_00>She accepts it, right?

00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.880
<v SPEAKER_00>She's like, okay, like this is it.

00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:58.079
<v SPEAKER_00>This is there's no way that I'm gonna escape this logically.

00:20:58.160 --> 00:20:58.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm a scientist.

00:20:59.039 --> 00:20:59.440
<v SPEAKER_00>This is it.

00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:00.960
<v SPEAKER_00>Like she's very sure.

00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:02.480
<v SPEAKER_00>But then something happens.

00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.160
<v SPEAKER_00>The cave starts to brighten.

00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.240
<v SPEAKER_00>She suddenly feels less isolated.

00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:07.839
<v SPEAKER_00>She feels more in focus.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:13.200
<v SPEAKER_00>At the height of panic and anger, suddenly Stephanie is convinced that somebody's in the cave with her.

00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.519
<v SPEAKER_00>She's very sure that it's her husband, Rob.

00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:18.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Rob used to tell her, believe you can, believe you can't.

00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:19.680
<v SPEAKER_00>Either way, you're right.

00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:24.799
<v SPEAKER_00>Stephanie describes feeling this presence of her husband in that moment, telling her to calm down.

00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.880
<v SPEAKER_00>She takes a breath, she searches the cave, she finds the guideline.

00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.720
<v SPEAKER_00>She isn't sure if it was spiritual or biochemical, but she knows whatever happened saved her life.

00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:35.599
<v SPEAKER_02>That's cool.

00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:43.680
<v SPEAKER_00>Writer John Geiger wrote the third man factor, surviving the impossible, and has found over 200 accounts of similar stories in his research.

00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:49.680
<v SPEAKER_00>He says that what he calls third man factor may be what people have described throughout history as guardian angels.

00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:55.920
<v SPEAKER_00>A survey from 2008 found that on average, 55% of Americans accept Guardian Angels as fact.

00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:56.880
<v SPEAKER_02>What percentage?

00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:57.440
<v SPEAKER_00>55%.

00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:58.319
<v SPEAKER_02>55.

00:21:58.799 --> 00:21:59.599
<v SPEAKER_00>I believe that's.

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:00.640
<v SPEAKER_02>Really high.

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.880
<v SPEAKER_00>Do you remember the show, one of the best shows ever from Aaron Swork in the newsroom?

00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:06.000
<v SPEAKER_02>I've never even heard of that.

00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.319
<v SPEAKER_00>Made me want to change my entire life.

00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:10.960
<v SPEAKER_02>But this is the why am I the why is this the first time I'm ever hearing?

00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:12.799
<v SPEAKER_00>It's happened years before we met.

00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.960
<v SPEAKER_00>But I believe that that show starts with the same fact.

00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:22.559
<v SPEAKER_00>It was like a survey that was like, what percentage of Americans believe in angels or ghosts and shit like that?

00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.359
<v SPEAKER_00>And then, like, what percentage think like America's doing a good job or like America's the best country?

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:29.359
<v SPEAKER_02>And like when was this poll taken?

00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Let's let's look.

00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:34.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Because maybe Touched by an Angel was like a primetime show at the time?

00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:40.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay, I found an ABC news article from September 18th, 2008, about the survey.

00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.880
<v SPEAKER_00>It was done by Baylor University's Institute for Studies of Religion.

00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.119
<v SPEAKER_00>They polled 1700 respondents of diverse religious faiths.

00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:50.880
<v SPEAKER_02>So practicing right.

00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:52.559
<v SPEAKER_00>So of course it's a little bit skewed.

00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:53.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Sure.

00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:53.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh yeah.

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.519
<v SPEAKER_00>And the other fact is that 92% of Americans believe in God.

00:22:57.839 --> 00:22:59.680
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't know if that's accurate anymore.

00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:01.200
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, we need a new survey.

00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:07.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay, so 46% believed that they had their own guardian angels of this group of surveyed people.

00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.559
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, so not just guardian angels in general, but they have a personal one.

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.680
<v SPEAKER_00>55% believe that guardian angels were fact.

00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:15.839
<v SPEAKER_00>46 believe that they had their own.

00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:16.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh-huh.

00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.440
<v SPEAKER_00>So what is causing this phenomenon, you ask?

00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Is it angels?

00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:22.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Is it a traumatic response in our brains?

00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:24.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Let's talk about some of the theories.

00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.839
<v SPEAKER_02>I think it's DMT.

00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.440
<v SPEAKER_00>I knew you were gonna say that.

00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Tell us what DMT is, Alan.

00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.240
<v SPEAKER_02>So DMT is the active ingredient in ayahuasca.

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:32.640
<v SPEAKER_00>Yep.

00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:37.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh, but also it is a naturally occurring chemical in everyone's brain.

00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:41.839
<v SPEAKER_02>And it is famously the death chemical, which floods your brain as you are dying.

00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.240
<v SPEAKER_02>It is a very strong hallucinogen.

00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:49.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Or, or it unlocks your ability to see other dimensions.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:50.799
<v SPEAKER_00>So that's my theory.

00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:51.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Yep.

00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:52.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Anyway, okay.

00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:52.960
<v SPEAKER_00>So, and you know what?

00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.319
<v SPEAKER_00>You know what this is telling me?

00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.160
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay, this is something I've wanted to write about for a long time, and maybe this will be an episode.

00:23:58.720 --> 00:23:59.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Newsroom.

00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:01.200
<v SPEAKER_00>I was thinking it would be an essay.

00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.279
<v SPEAKER_00>Like this idea of heralds.

00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.079
<v SPEAKER_00>Heralds?

00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:04.640
<v SPEAKER_00>Heralds.

00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:05.279
<v SPEAKER_00>Heralds.

00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:05.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Yep.

00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:06.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Like my uncle.

00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.839
<v SPEAKER_00>No, like heralds of truth, like heralds who are here to like a herald of justice.

00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, like like the Mothman is a herald, right?

00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:17.680
<v SPEAKER_00>He was here to warn, according to my belief.

00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:22.480
<v SPEAKER_00>He was here to warn the people of West Virginia that this bridge was going to collapse.

00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:29.119
<v SPEAKER_00>These people, these like essence beings, whatever they are that our people are experiencing, are here to warn people and save them.

00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:30.240
<v SPEAKER_00>They're heralds.

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.839
<v SPEAKER_02>So, like uh the Silver Surfer is the herald of Galactus.

00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.720
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know anything about that, but I trust you on it.

00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:37.359
<v SPEAKER_02>Thank you.

00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:43.440
<v SPEAKER_00>So, one explanation for third man theory is psychological dissociation under extreme stress.

00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:44.319
<v SPEAKER_02>There it is.

00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:54.720
<v SPEAKER_00>During life-threatening situations such as starvation, exhaustion, hypothermia, or isolation, the brain may separate conscious awareness from fear or pain as a coping mechanism.

00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:02.000
<v SPEAKER_00>This can result in the perception of another presence that offers guidance or reassurance, even though no external entity is present.

00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:06.079
<v SPEAKER_00>Another explanation is a stress-induced hallucination.

00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:14.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Severe physical deprivation and lack of sleep can disrupt normal brain function, leading to auditory or visual experiences that feel real.

00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:22.480
<v SPEAKER_00>In these cases, the perceived presence may be a hallucination created by the brain to maintain focus and motivation when survival is at risk.

00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.000
<v SPEAKER_00>So both of these are sort of like survival triggers.

00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.759
<v SPEAKER_00>That something in your body is like, you're failing at surviving.

00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:31.119
<v SPEAKER_00>We're gonna override.

00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.960
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, it it makes sense.

00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:35.519
<v SPEAKER_02>It helps people survive, and that's just Darwinism.

00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:36.799
<v SPEAKER_00>Right, right, exactly.

00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:42.960
<v SPEAKER_00>Some researchers suggest that fun that the phenomenon is linked to the brain's social cognition systems.

00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:51.759
<v SPEAKER_00>Humans are neurologically wired to expect social interaction, and in extreme isolation, the brain may generate a sense of companionship to compensate.

00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:58.400
<v SPEAKER_00>This presence can take on a supportive role, mirroring how social bonds normally help regulate stress and decision making.

00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:01.680
<v SPEAKER_00>That's really interesting, I think, coming out of our isolation episode.

00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:06.960
<v SPEAKER_00>A neurological explanation involves altered activity in the temporal junction.

00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh good job pronouncing that.

00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:09.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Thank you.

00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:13.599
<v SPEAKER_00>A brain region involved in self-perception and body awareness.

00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:17.839
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm not the best at pronunciation, so sometimes I need a little phone or friend.

00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:29.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Disruptions in this area, which can occur under extreme physical or emotional strain, may cause a person to perceive another entity nearby, even though the experience originates internally.

00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:29.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Dr.

00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:39.839
<v SPEAKER_00>Michael Persinger was a Canadian neuroscientist known for his research on religious, mystical, and anomalous experiences, including phenomena related to the third man factor.

00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:48.000
<v SPEAKER_00>He proposed that the sensation of an unseen presence could be explained by brain activity rather than external or supernatural causes.

00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:56.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Persinger argued that these experiences were linked to activity in the temporal lobes, areas of the brain involved in memory, emotion, and the sense of self.

00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:08.640
<v SPEAKER_00>According to his theory, stress, fatigue, and sensory deprivation, or environmental factors, could disrupt normal temporal lobe function, leading the brain to generate the perception of another presence nearby.

00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:15.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Persinger is best known for developing the God helmet, a device that applied weak magnetic fields to the brain.

00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:25.519
<v SPEAKER_00>He reported that some participants experienced a presence, the sense of a presence, feelings of being watched, or religious or spiritual sensations while wearing the device.

00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:32.559
<v SPEAKER_00>He interpreted these results as evidence that such experiences could be produced by neurological stimulation rather than external entities.

00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:33.839
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, hang on.

00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:40.240
<v SPEAKER_02>And how much of this was produced by the fact he's like, okay, I need you to put on the God helmet.

00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Just tell me what you feel.

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:43.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Do you feel God?

00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:51.200
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, who knows what he calls it to them, but I do think what he's doing essentially is pumping very low magnetic pulses into somebody's brain.

00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:51.839
<v SPEAKER_02>DMT.

00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:53.680
<v SPEAKER_00>No, into somebody's brain.

00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:55.279
<v SPEAKER_00>And it's triggering.

00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:00.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I think like the point is people skin whatever experience how like in a way that they know.

00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:09.519
<v SPEAKER_00>If you're somebody who's super religious and you have some kind of experience you can't explain, you're maybe your first thought isn't like, oh, that's some kind of neurological whatever.

00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:13.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Your first thought is like, oh, this feels like God, because that's what you know.

00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:18.799
<v SPEAKER_02>I really wish I had all my facts here, but there's a big experiment about magnetic fields on the human body.

00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.359
<v SPEAKER_02>And the answer is they it does nothing.

00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:24.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Like it that they just don't they have very little effect on the human body.

00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:25.680
<v SPEAKER_00>Interesting.

00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:29.119
<v SPEAKER_02>So low level, you know, like th think about it.

00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:34.319
<v SPEAKER_02>Like a human can be right next to an electromagnet, a very, very strong magnetic field.

00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:35.839
<v SPEAKER_02>And think about an MRI.

00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:51.839
<v SPEAKER_02>There's a reason why they're so scrupulous about making sure you have like no metal implants or anything in your body before going to an MRI, because like otherwise you're gonna have the little piece of shrapnel in your leg that you forgot about uh fly out at the speed of sound and make a giant exit wound.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:01.039
<v SPEAKER_02>If you can go through that and you don't start hallucinating, I can't imagine that a low-leveling a low-level magnetic field is gonna have much of an effect.

00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:05.279
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay, so what you're saying is that these experiences are supernatural.

00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:11.359
<v SPEAKER_02>I think that this there's the only explanation is either DMT or Mothman.

00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:11.920
<v SPEAKER_00>I understand.

00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:12.799
<v SPEAKER_02>There is no in between.

00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:21.680
<v SPEAKER_00>Persinger suggested that in extreme survival situations, similar neurological disruptions could occur naturally, producing the third man experience.

00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:27.599
<v SPEAKER_00>While his work has been influential in discussions of the third man factor, it has also been controversial.

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:35.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Some researchers have had difficulty replicating his experimental results, and his conclusions remain debated within neuroscience.

00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:41.680
<v SPEAKER_02>Well, yeah, so you know, d stress does crazy, crazy things to be like we we are just walking chemical reactions.

00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:47.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Like that is our entire I mean that's our entire uh physical being is just a bunch of chemical reactions.

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:47.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:29:47.680 --> 00:30:00.960
<v SPEAKER_02>So yeah, when your brain gets flooded with endorphins uh or adrenaline or all this stuff that reduces only that that comes out in extreme stress, your things are gonna be different.

00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:12.640
<v SPEAKER_02>One of the reasons why like recreational hallucinogens are so potent isn't necessarily like the chemicals doing all the heavy lifting, it's also the stuff that your brain is naturally releasing in response to the chemicals.

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:13.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Right.

00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:14.480
<v SPEAKER_02>So yeah.

00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:22.079
<v SPEAKER_02>If there I think there's something very interesting about the fact there's a repeating pattern of seeing this other entity.

00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.680
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, maybe your body's releasing, and uh, we're not scientists, obviously.

00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:32.160
<v SPEAKER_00>Doesn't even need to be said, but but what if your body is releasing some DMT because it thinks you're dead?

00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:32.960
<v SPEAKER_02>There you go.

00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:34.880
<v SPEAKER_00>Listen, give me an award.

00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:39.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Stephanie Schwab, again, the woman from the cave diving, had done tests with Persinger.

00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:40.960
<v SPEAKER_00>He's since passed away.

00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:49.839
<v SPEAKER_00>So they wanted to see if they could recreate the third man in his lab rather than in an actual survival situation by pumping her with, you know, magnetic waves or whatever.

00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:51.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And they were not able to do this.

00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:52.880
<v SPEAKER_00>Not totally.

00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:57.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Finally, some interpretations are cultural or spiritual rather than scientific.

00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:05.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Individuals may interpret the experience through personal belief systems, describing the presence as a spirit, guardian angel, or divine figure.

00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:14.240
<v SPEAKER_00>While these interpretations vary widely, they reflect how meaning is often assigned after the experience rather than explaining its biological cause.

00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:19.759
<v SPEAKER_00>But there are some very interesting ways that this type of phenomena appears in horror and film.

00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:21.359
<v SPEAKER_02>There, okay, bringing it home.

00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:22.880
<v SPEAKER_00>Bringing it home, baby.

00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:25.440
<v SPEAKER_00>One example is Gravity from 2013.

00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:26.720
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:35.519
<v SPEAKER_00>There's a moment when astronaut Ryan Stone, who is played by Sandra Bullock, briefly interacts with somebody that is believed to have been dead.

00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:36.160
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay, good.

00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:37.920
<v SPEAKER_02>It's a great movie.

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.799
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh, we're just gotta stop it there, because no spoilers, please.

00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:44.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Sure, but again, this portrayal is often linked to third man phenomena.

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:45.200
<v SPEAKER_02>That makes sense.

00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:45.839
<v SPEAKER_02>It's a good one.

00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:58.079
<v SPEAKER_00>We see in other survival stories like Adrift from 2018, which is a disaster sort of ocean survival story, the protagonist experiences moments with her lost companion that later turn out to be hallucinations.

00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:16.319
<v SPEAKER_00>I'll also just say on this kind of like ocean theme, my uncle had sailed around the world a few times by himself, solo sailed, and had hallucinated other people on the boat and told us later about them, which obviously he knew later were hallucinations, but at the time, you know, so I have like a personal family experience with this.

00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:17.200
<v SPEAKER_02>That's pretty cool.

00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:26.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And also in Castaway from 2000, the stranded Tom Hanks creates an anthropomorphized companion, Wilson, to cope with isolation.

00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:31.759
<v SPEAKER_00>And while this is not supernatural, it function it functions like a third presence.

00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.240
<v SPEAKER_00>He's filling of an emotional void.

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:35.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Sure.

00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:37.119
<v SPEAKER_02>But this is no different.

00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:38.880
<v SPEAKER_02>This is one of my favorite movies.

00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:39.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I know.

00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:41.119
<v SPEAKER_00>You've I don't it's you love Castor.

00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:42.319
<v SPEAKER_02>It's so good.

00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:43.359
<v SPEAKER_00>I've never seen it.

00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:45.200
<v SPEAKER_02>There's nothing supernatural about this.

00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:49.759
<v SPEAKER_02>This is just a man's will to live and the little buddy that he could.

00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.759
<v SPEAKER_00>And what if he didn't, but the point is he needed the little buddy.

00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:56.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, but there's no That's the point.

00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:57.680
<v SPEAKER_02>There's no guardian angel.

00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:04.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And of course, 127 Hours from 2010, which tells the story of a solo survival ordeal.

00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:10.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And the main character has visions and imagined conversations that can be again interpreted as internal coping mechanisms.

00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:18.799
<v SPEAKER_00>Touching the Void from 2003 is this docudrama that's based on the book we talked about earlier, which was a true climbing incident.

00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:29.519
<v SPEAKER_00>This film includes moments where the climber hears guiding voices in inner direction, while especially while under extreme dress, which is literally inspired by a reported third man experience.

00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:34.319
<v SPEAKER_00>There are also examples where the presence is more psychological or symbolic.

00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:42.799
<v SPEAKER_00>So, for example, Life of Pi from 2012, the protagonist's relationship with an imagined companion reflects survival psychology and inner support.

00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:44.880
<v SPEAKER_02>You mean the tiger's not real?

00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Movies can be whatever you want them to be.

00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:49.599
<v SPEAKER_00>If the tiger's real for you, then the tiger's real.

00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:50.160
<v SPEAKER_00>Aw, geez.

00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I change the endings of books and movies all the time in my head.

00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:53.359
<v SPEAKER_00>Really?

00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:54.160
<v SPEAKER_00>If I don't like it.

00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:54.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:01.920
<v SPEAKER_00>The Guardian from 2006 is a survival sea rescue movie where a character refers to an unseen figure helping him.

00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:09.679
<v SPEAKER_00>But if we open up the trope a little wider, there are so many horror films where the living is aided by helpful spirits or guardians.

00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:27.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Horror often assumes unseen presences are hostile, but when this presence is protective or a herald instead, it shifts kind of this fear from the supernatural and kind of changes it usually in this format into like the fear of isolation or something else, right?

00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.599
<v SPEAKER_00>There's some other external factor.

00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:41.920
<v SPEAKER_00>A really good example of this, one of my favorite movies, is The Frighteners from 1996, which kind of tells, which tells this story in a very simplified way about ghosts working alongside the protagonist to help stop an evil force.

00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:43.360
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't think I've ever seen it.

00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:45.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, it's fantastic.

00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:51.280
<v SPEAKER_00>What lies beneath is another example of this stir of echoes, the pact, the black phone, and ghosts, just to name a few.

00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:58.800
<v SPEAKER_00>Let's talk a little bit about the black phone from 2021, because it's one of the best horror examples that I could find of Third Man Factor.

00:34:59.039 --> 00:34:59.679
<v SPEAKER_02>That makes sense.

00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:05.360
<v SPEAKER_00>In the film, the voices of murdered children communicate with the protagonist through a disconnected phone.

00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:06.639
<v SPEAKER_00>Did you like the black phone?

00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:07.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's okay.

00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:08.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it was okay.

00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:09.679
<v SPEAKER_02>I know the second one's out now.

00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:11.280
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm surprised they made a sequel.

00:35:11.360 --> 00:35:13.679
<v SPEAKER_00>It was such a contained little story.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.719
<v SPEAKER_02>It uh my understanding is it was very popular.

00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:18.800
<v SPEAKER_00>It was written by Joe King, right?

00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Or it was based on a story by Joe King, I think.

00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:23.679
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh, you mean what's his pen name?

00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:24.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Joe Hill.

00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:26.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, sorry, Joe Hill.

00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:27.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Stephen King's son.

00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:30.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it was originally a horror short story by Joe Hill.

00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:32.079
<v SPEAKER_02>It's that I think that's my issue.

00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:33.679
<v SPEAKER_02>It seems like it's a short story.

00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:34.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.400
<v SPEAKER_02>And then it got it got fleshed out into a feature.

00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.079
<v SPEAKER_00>It got stretched too thin.

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.280
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, which I don't know, sometimes works fine, but it just wasn't for me.

00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:49.199
<v SPEAKER_00>And in the movie, the voices provide warnings, instructions, emotional support, trying to help this character survive the situation that he's in.

00:35:49.519 --> 00:36:00.239
<v SPEAKER_00>And just to be very clear, in Blackphone, the presence is very explicitly supernatural, but it mirror the behavior, whether it's supernatural or whatever, is the same, right?

00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:01.519
<v SPEAKER_00>The result is the same.

00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:08.480
<v SPEAKER_00>The voices only appear under extreme confinement and threat, and they're doing good to try to help this character survive.

00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:10.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Have you ever seen the TV show Legion?

00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:11.360
<v SPEAKER_00>No.

00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:13.599
<v SPEAKER_02>I think you would really, really enjoy the world of it.

00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:14.719
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, intriguing.

00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:23.039
<v SPEAKER_02>It was a FX show, and the main character tr is like we open in like a uh a mental institution.

00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:23.599
<v SPEAKER_01>Yeah.

00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:35.840
<v SPEAKER_02>Because you know, he's being heavily medicated and sedated for being a parano a paranoid schizophrenic, where he's just constantly hallucinating, seeing people who aren't there, all that.

00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:36.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:45.199
<v SPEAKER_02>You you learn pretty quickly that there's far there's far more truth going on than him just hallucinating because he's a very powerful psychic that can interact with the dead.

00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:46.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Ooh, I do like that.

00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.559
<v SPEAKER_00>The Sixth Sense from 1999 is is another example.

00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:56.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Although often discussed as a ghost story, the film presents spirits who act as guides rather than threats.

00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:02.880
<v SPEAKER_00>The child protagonist receives information from spirits that help him understand danger and protect himself and others.

00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:07.440
<v SPEAKER_00>The ghosts are frightening in appearance, of course, but their intent is not malicious.

00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:20.559
<v SPEAKER_00>This again sort of reframes this like supernatural trope that we see in movies all the time, and it's something closer in function to third man factor than a typical horror movie about the supernatural.

00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:26.400
<v SPEAKER_02>So we've yeah, we've kind of just changed it to ghosts that only one person can see.

00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:27.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Sure.

00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:28.639
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean I mean, but that's fine.

00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:29.360
<v SPEAKER_02>It's it's no different.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:31.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Like ghosts with a point.

00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:33.679
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, yeah, there's no difference between that and a guardian angel.

00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:34.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Right, right.

00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:35.360
<v SPEAKER_00>That's uh exactly.

00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:38.000
<v SPEAKER_00>All of it's just like reskinned to like what you're into.

00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:38.320
<v SPEAKER_00>Yep.

00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:43.519
<v SPEAKER_00>If you're into religion, if you're into the supernatural, if you're into science, like yeah, exactly.

00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:47.679
<v SPEAKER_00>One of my favorite pastimes is researching near-death experiences.

00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:50.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And I think third man factor fits very well into that.

00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.840
<v SPEAKER_00>The third man factor sits at the intersection of survival, psychology, and faith.

00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:03.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Across disasters, expeditions, and near-death experiences, people from very different backgrounds describe the same core experience.

00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.719
<v SPEAKER_00>The sense that someone was present when no one should have been there.

00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:14.239
<v SPEAKER_00>And for some, that presence is understood as neurological, a function of a brain under extreme stress trying to keep the body alive.

00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:18.719
<v SPEAKER_00>For others, it is interpreted as spiritual, protective, or deeply personal.

00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:25.360
<v SPEAKER_00>What makes these accounts notable is not whether the presence was real in a physical sense, but that it was effective, right?

00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.920
<v SPEAKER_00>That all of these people survived the situation they were in because of whatever this thing was.

00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:39.119
<v SPEAKER_00>In many cases, people credit this experience with giving them clarity, motivation, or direction that they needed to survive and they otherwise believed that they could not.

00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:44.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Whether understood as dissociation, hallucination, or faith, the outcome is the same.

00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.760
<v SPEAKER_00>People have survived in moments when there was no hope left.

00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:59.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Stories like Ron DiFrancisco's, Shackleton's, Joe Simpson's, and Stephanie Schwabs remind us that extreme situations can produce experiences that challenge what we think we know today.

00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:07.679
<v SPEAKER_00>The third man factor remains difficult to define precisely because of the very extreme and nuanced situations in which it arises, right?

00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:09.119
<v SPEAKER_00>It's very hard to reproduce.

00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.159
<v SPEAKER_00>They tried to reproduce it in a lab, but they couldn't do it.

00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:24.559
<v SPEAKER_00>So it's very difficult to ever be able to scan what's happening in the brain in those moments unless you happen to have neuro, whatever, neuro trackers on Stephanie Schwab's brain while she's diving and it goes wrong.

00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:25.280
<v SPEAKER_02>Sure.

00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:32.000
<v SPEAKER_00>In the end, the question may not be whether these presences were angels, brain activity, or the supernatural.

00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:39.440
<v SPEAKER_00>The more important question is why the human mind, when pushed to the limits, so often creates something that urges survival.

00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:41.519
<v SPEAKER_01>This was this was a fun one.

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:43.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Thanks for being on the journey with me.

00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:47.199
<v SPEAKER_00>I know it pushes you a little bit when we talk about things like this.

00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:48.000
<v SPEAKER_01>Why?

00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:53.199
<v SPEAKER_00>Because it's unprovable, it's supernatural, it's well documented.

00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:54.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, well.

00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.119
<v SPEAKER_02>But no, this this seems like a recurring phenomena.

00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:04.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh, but also it's not even the people that it's happening to, they're not like, this is this supernatural thing.

00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:11.840
<v SPEAKER_02>It's like this is very much just could be a chemical response that happens pretty reliably in these situations.

00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:13.920
<v SPEAKER_00>No, I think they're all interpreting it differently.

00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:15.679
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, it's just a very interesting thing.

00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.360
<v SPEAKER_02>But no, but the w the people that it happens to are not making these claims.

00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:20.960
<v SPEAKER_02>They're saying it absolutely could be one or the other.

00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:23.119
<v SPEAKER_00>No, some some believe that it's certain things.

00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:25.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Well, there's always gonna be nut jobs.

00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:26.960
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay, so Alan, what's your take?

00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.599
<v SPEAKER_00>You think it's DMT slowly leaking into the brain?

00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:30.800
<v SPEAKER_00>What do you think it is?

00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.360
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh I do not think it's guardian angels.

00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:35.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, wait, I don't know if we close this loop.

00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.079
<v SPEAKER_00>The point I reason why I started talking about Mothman too.

00:40:38.239 --> 00:41:05.039
<v SPEAKER_00>DMT has been heavily associated with Mothman because some people think that he is just an extra-dimensional being and that DMT, so that there's this like realm potentially, I'm really really coming across as insane in this moment, but there's this realm, other dimension of creatures who are actively trying to save and help us, and you can only access them, like you know, consciously when you have a little bit of DMT soaking in.

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:13.599
<v SPEAKER_02>We're not actively trying to save us, it's the Mothman was it was we're we're gonna do the whole Mothman episode again now.

00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:20.800
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh it it's it with it's the the ants analogy of like you can't explain physics to a cockroach.

00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:28.719
<v SPEAKER_02>Well, no, if an ant comes over and says, you know, it starts yelling your name, like you look at it because like, well, that's weird.

00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:34.159
<v SPEAKER_02>And then if he's like, hey, kill that evil ant, you're like, yeah, sure.

00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:38.559
<v SPEAKER_02>But then once they start getting all about ant politics, you're like, I'm way over this.

00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:39.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:40.079
<v SPEAKER_00>Sure.

00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:41.199
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I don't know.

00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, there maybe we're a curiosity at best.

00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.239
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, what if it was birds?

00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:46.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Birds?

00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:48.159
<v SPEAKER_00>What if it was cats?

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.800
<v SPEAKER_00>What if it was something that's a little bit bigger than ants?

00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I think your sympathy is more apparent.

00:41:54.800 --> 00:42:01.760
<v SPEAKER_02>I think your estimation of our relationship to higher dimensional beings is far too kind.

00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:02.719
<v SPEAKER_00>Fair enough.

00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, anyway, thank you all so much for being here.

00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:06.320
<v SPEAKER_00>This was a fun one.

00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.800
<v SPEAKER_00>Hope everyone is staying safe, staying spooky, and we'll talk to you next week.

00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:11.199
<v SPEAKER_00>Bye.

00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:11.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Bye.