How to Build a Website That Actually Converts With Sam Dunning

 there's a mistake that a lot of folks make with their website and one of the biggest killers of
 website performance is ego as much as we want our websites to look great, have great features,
 have pages that share information about us and so on. The website in most businesses case is not
 for us, we are not the buyer, we are not the person that's going to be landing on the site and
 potentially request to do business, book a demo or book a sales call, whatever that action is,
 usually folks want to quickly get an idea of kind of exactly what it is you do,
 how you're going to help them and how they can take that next step.
 This is right about now with Ryan Alford, a Radcast Network production.
 We are the number one business show on the planet with over 1 million downloads a month,
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 You ready to start snapping necks and caching checks? Well, it starts right about now.
 What's up guys? Welcome to right about now. We're making it right right now. It's always
 discussion about how you do better marketing, how you do better, B2B marketing. We've just
 had to go to the expert. Sam Dunning, he's a founder of Breaking, B2B. Welcome to the show of Sam.
 Hey Ryan, appreciate you having me on, man. We're ready looking forward to the conversation.
 I'm excited to get stuck in just like my accent gives away that I'm a southern guy from
 other states. It's clear you're across the pond a little bit, where's home, Sam?
 Yeah, so I'm southern as well, but southern in England. So I'm right in the southwest for any
 folks that are familiar with England. I'm near a city called Bristol, probably about two and a half
 hours from London in a little town called Yovu in Somerset. Let's just set the table for every one
 Sam. Let's give everyone your background and a little bit of your career story and trajectory.
 I started off in business wise. My first job was in the retail world, which is kind of funny
 because probably about a year and a half in, I realized that I absolutely hated working in
 retail. So I worked in a shop called Jessups, where anyone not familiar with that,
 setting like camera equipment. It kind of relates to what I do now, just like yourself,
 I run a podcast. I was kind of wearing my keenness for it came into setting like video cameras,
 SLRs, tripods, anything associated with cameras. But I soon realized that, although I love media,
 I did not like dealing with the general public. I don't know what folks are like in the US,
 but when you go up to someone and say, can I help you there or how are you doing there?
 People in the UK just run at you and like almost moan at you, they're swearing at you and
 probably about a year into that role. So I'm really hating this man. I was probably 18 years old.
 And then my cousin said he was actually recruiting at this web agency at the time,
 a company called web choice. He said there's a project management strike sales role going.
 I said, sounds good man, I'm tired of this. So it took an interview the next day and thought,
 yeah, jacked in that retail job started working at a web agency. And essentially was like a jack
 of all trades. So started off project managing websites, doing a few sales calls,
 learning how to design sites, learning what was involved in digital marketing to start growing
 businesses, but a quick funny story. One of the first leads, one of the first sales inquiries
 they ever gave me. I called them up and this lead came in, I called the guy and he wanted a web.
 This is probably about 12 years ago Ryan. And he wanted a website, no joke, that was pretty much
 the same spec as LinkedIn. So you know, quite a small black website.
 Yeah, I'm joking, probably a small spec. Yeah, exactly. Probably the biggest scope of work
 for a web project you could even imagine. And do you actually do it? Well, this is the
 even funnier part, or probably not that funny, was I think I quoted him because I had no clues
 at the clue at the time about sales. And I was 18, 19 roughly now I'm 33. I just said yes to every
 request on the sales school. And just said yes, yes, yes, yes, having no clue if we could deliver it
 and then somehow sold this, this first ever lead that I took on, but sold it, I couldn't have
 undersold it anymore. I sold it for like 500 pounds, which is probably a equivalent of like
 I know 7800 bucks. And luckily we have time. Yeah, man, it's insane, right? Yeah.
 Like even, even however many years ago, that was like 14 or so years ago, it's still insane.
 Luckily, we started doing a few designs and then this guy let us transition it off like cross over
 into other work because he realised that the spec was too crazy, but luckily this guy was quite
 friendly and kind of understood that I was new. But yeah, as the years went on, I've had other
 jobs in between kind of working at web agencies like Nilejo and the Army, worked in a cool centre,
 worked for a marketing agency, was going to be a paratrooper, none of which worked out. And then
 I've always kind of been drawn back into the web and SEO world. And I think what kind of resonated
 with me was the fact that you could use a website as almost like a salesperson itself as it's
 life 24. Seven working around the clock, I love the fact that websites can really fuel a business
 with inquiries with sales leads and all that good stuff. And they really can be the heart
 and soul of the business. And that teamed up with SEO, I talked about quite a lot on episodes and
 podcasts like this, where you can kind of rank on Google and drive organic traffic, the fact that
 you can kind of build this site to fuel your sales team really kind of intrigued me. And that's
 why a lot of the way I talk about this is geared up around this stuff. And then eventually,
 became a director in my last web business, which I exited and then recently started this year
 fired up Breaking B2B, which is a B2B SEO and web agency. And we also run podcasts, which is
 themed around B2B marketing, where we interview practitioners that are going to be to be marketers
 and founders called Breaking B2B as well. Similar journey to a lot of people here,
 finding your passions, finding your skill sets, and ultimately finding fascination and interest
 in something, and then honing in your skills around that. If I'm summarizing, well, Sam, at least
 that's what I'm hearing. Making a lot of mistakes as well. Let's not forget that. Doing a lot of
 stupid stuff. The LinkedIn is just the tip of the iceberg. I've made so many stupid mistakes over
 the years, man. So many things. I'm trying to figure out how you're sped out like after the fact,
 because you know, on its surface, if you go even now, if you go like on the surface,
 it has a look that complicated like the UI, but it's all the functionality and databases and all
 the stuff that's bought that you can't see. This starts to write down probably even for
 certainly didn't use like some gigantic digital agency wherever and spit millions of dollars on it.
 But at the same time, even like in a small agency, if you're speaking that out, that's probably
 two or three hundred grand. Oh, easy, easy. It's like when I've had sales inquiries and years ago,
 where folks would say, I just need a website like Google, you know, just a simple one page
 or like Google. I can pay you 300 bucks and we can get it done. I'm just falling off my chair in
 laughter. Yeah, exactly. Well, you don't know what you don't know exactly. Turning to the B2B side,
 it is fascinating that you have this both quandary and opportunity with websites that you want it
 to look great. You want to be proud of it. You want this aesthetic that has been the historical
 perspective of your brand and all those things. In reality, you have this great opportunity,
 like you said, to deliver a sales funnel and leads if you can get out of your own way.
 Yeah. And I think even today working with particularly medium to larger companies and maybe even
 small companies, it depends on who's in charge and what their aesthetics are. But I think there's
 even today the battle that happens with what it looks like versus what it does. How do you approach
 that and is that a still a common refrain that you hear? What it looks like versus what it does,
 if I may, there's a mistake that a lot of folks make with their website and one of the biggest
 killers of website performance is ego. So to dive into that a bit deeper, what I mean by it,
 and that could be if you're running a small business that you're the founder and you're doing
 all the work on your website yourself or maybe you're getting a contractor, maybe you're a larger
 organisation and you've got a marketing team that are going to be delivering it, you've got a team
 of execs that can be delivering it. But what you've got to realise is as much as we want our websites
 to look great, have great features, have pages that share information about us and so on,
 the website in most businesses case is not for us. We are not the buyer, we are not the person
 that's going to be landing on the site and potentially request to do business, book a demo,
 or book a sales call, whatever that action is. We've probably got a warehouse full of our goods,
 our services, or for a technology business, we've got almost unlimited supply within reason
 of what we can deliver. So one of the biggest issues is that folks kind of spend all this time designing,
 building the copy, the content, the messaging, building out the pages, but they do it all for what
 they think looks good as either the marketing or the founder of the business. The issue with that
 is unless you fit your idol client persona 100%, which is pretty rare, your focus clients,
 aka the people that you want to inquire on your website or to buy your stuff, probably not going
 to resonate with it as well as you think they are. And we're often quite biased right and I've done
 this, I've made this mistake on my own websites in the past, you become too attached to it,
 you start using copy and text like on your website headlines like award winning, best in class,
 we've been in business a hundred years and all this kind of stuff, which we think in theory
 is going to work, but most of the time if folks are landing on your website, especially your homepage,
 which we can dive into the fundamentals in a sec, usually folks want to quickly get an idea of
 kind of exactly what it is you do, how you're going to help them and how they can take that next step,
 because especially in the times we're in now with AI fast improving, people are time short,
 so they don't have tons of time to scroll through your website and work out exactly what problems
 you fix, the value you bring to their life and how to, how to be able to contact you sick, that's
 a taster into it. I love the thought when you said ego, we all think we know what's best and we
 have what's in our mind and a lot of times that's serving like you said ourselves instead of our
 audience instead of our target, because it reminds me a lot of like discussions I've had over the
 years with marketing executives and clients and like having to tell them the bragging stuff,
 the speed, the feeds, the stuff that you're so proud of about your product, about your service,
 about what you do, you're so proud of it, but it doesn't translate to necessarily solving an
 issue or a problem for your client, and that sounds very much the discussion we're talking about now
 when framing up, especially the key positioning on the homepage. Yeah, exactly right, and these
 issues like you mentioned there, right, they're not just appropriate for your website, they're
 appropriate for marketing in general, like these are fund eventals, right? When you're building
 marketing assets, be that website content, website messaging headlines, be that ad headlines, whether
 it's for Google ads, whether it's for LinkedIn ads, Facebook ads, etc, whether it's other marketing
 collateral, you've got to put yourself in the shoes of your focus clients, the people that you want
 to stop in their tracks, attract, grab their attention and then point them to take an action, whether
 that's to learn more, book a demo, check out your case studies, whatever. So one of the biggest
 things that you want to do like a very start other website exercise is actually kind of spend some
 time whether that's yourself as a founder or with your team and kind of really get bound to basics,
 what exactly do we want to get out of this website? Because I think that's just an exercise that
 people don't do. They get into the design, they get into the exciting stuff, but they skip out the
 fundamental. So in B2B, I most B2B companies, most folks that I've interviewed maybe 350 or so
 marketing execs on breaking B2B. And from my experience, typically what they want to see on a B2B
 website is a quick idea of kind of what you do or the problem you fix and how you help. And they
 want to see some proof of results. So that could be case studies, testimonials, review videos,
 creditations, walkthroughs, etc. They want to see some kind of proof of your offer and action.
 So if you're like a technology or software business, maybe it's a demo before trial. They usually
 want to see how much it costs. So some kind of indicative fiery of pricing, whether that's
 bullpark figures, starting ranges or packages. They want to get their questions answered. So maybe
 you've got FAQ sections or relevant sections on relevant pages, address those key questions that
 come up in sales schools. And then they want an easy route to speak to sales. So maybe that's
 weaving in a calendar or similar. So someone can book time directly on a sales rep calendar or
 using a tool like revenue hero, which is similar to calendar or a simple to fill out form or book
 or call whatever that is. So that's usually kind of the fundamentals of what people want out B2B
 site. But one tip that you can do is if you really want your website to resonate with these
 target clients that you actually want to buy your stuff and generate leads for on your website,
 this is something that's skipped by a lot of websites and it's understandable because it takes
 a bit of time. It's customer research. So what I'm saying here is basically interviewing anywhere
 between if you can five to 10 recently signed or recently onboarded clients or if you don't have
 access to that as a new business, maybe folks that fit your target persona, the people that you
 want to go after. And you may have to offer them something like a free console or something perhaps
 that's kind of a free low ticket item you can provide. But from these people, you can get golden
 nuggets, which is really going to make sure you're messaging your headline, your content resonate
 because these are the people you want to attract and convert. This is where you can ask them things
 like if it's a recently onboarded customer, what was the frustrating problem that kind of tipped you
 over the edge was becoming so annoying that stopped you in your tracks that kind of made you decide
 there's time to fix it and reach out to a company like ours and that's going to be really impactful
 for your headline. Something like that is useful to know. What do you care about seeing on vendors in
 our sector, in our industry's website? Like what are the main things you quickly want to learn,
 see and take action upon? Again, these are golden nuggets because it's actually going to give you
 that spill the tea on what people actually care about seeing on their site. How do we stack up in
 your opinion to other agencies or other companies or other similar businesses in our sector? And if
 you have got an existing website, you can ask questions around what do you feel is missing on our
 current website. That can give you some really insights like they might say, we'd have a pricing
 page or a case that is quite thin or I couldn't really understand exactly what it is you do or
 it's quite difficult to contact you. So my point here is you're doing these five to ten interviews
 using a transcript tool, maybe like otter or similar so you can kind of dissect the notes after
 each cool on zoom. And then from there, you want to look for patterns. Once you do five to ten
 interviews, you'll see patterns in people's responses. You'll see common things that come up like
 it might be this is the juicy problem we fix. This is the main outcome people want as a result of
 working with us for clients that we've already worked with. This was the main outcome we actually
 brought to them. Okay, excellent. We can use this problem and this solution and maybe our website
 headline i.e. we do x, it fixes y, it's our headline. And you get all this juicy intel that's
 going to basically mean that you're not designing and building your website on guesswork,
 you're building your pages, your content, your messaging and more based on what real potential
 clients or existing clients care about learning, seeing and doing. So that's one of the vital steps.
 Takes a little bit of research work, but if you're kind of growing organization, it's something
 that's going to be worth its weight in gold. So it's, it just means your website's going to convert
 that in short. And that is very good practical advice. It makes a lot of sense like when you should
 hear this thing. Say I'm as we close out here, any final tips, tricks or things that you counsel
 people on. Yeah, I mean to summarize what we've discussed, your website can quite literally be
 your very best or be your very worst salesperson depending on how you research, design, build, update
 and market it. In most companies case, they want it to be their best. Don't neglect it. Even if 90%
 of your business is word of mouth or referrals, those folks are probably still checking your website
 and you don't know what you don't know. So you're not going to know about a lead that you missed.
 You're just going to miss it. If that website isn't hitting the mark, like it's taking ages to load,
 it's not presenting the information they care about seeing, it's not building confidence with
 results, it's not sharing the key piece of information they need. You're losing leads, losing
 potential business that you didn't even know is coming through the door and your competitors are
 getting a free lunch. So that's what I'd urge you to consider. I love it. Good advice. You don't
 know what you're missing out on. That's the scary thing. You don't know how many people are dropping
 off if they're not getting to the bottom of at least the form fill or something like that. Nothing
 works in that. See, I'm working. Everybody learn more about what you got going on and everything
 you're doing with working be to be pretty sure that man. So yeah, bio means connect on me on LinkedIn.
 My name's Sam Donninger. Share on the daily tips around website SEO and more. I run the podcast,
 which is called Breaking B2B, where we interview marketing practitioners, or I also run solo episodes
 each week with stories, ideas, case studies, B2B marketing. Well, lastly, if you're perhaps
 a little frustrated every time target clients search for what you do on Google, your competitors
 are above you stealing traffic and in bounds, or maybe you've got a decent site already, but it's
 just not converting a steady flow of sales leads for your team, then happy to discuss and see if
 we can help you at BreakingB2B.com. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on, Sam, and I look forward
 to further partnership and discussions. Got a lot to share. Appreciate it, man. Hey guys,
 you want to find us. Ryan is right.com. Find all the highlight clips and the full episodes and the
 show notes where you can get the details, the Sam's info, and all things Breaking B2B. You know where
 I'm at at Ryan Allford on all the social media platforms. See you next time. I'll ride about now.
 This has been right about now with Ryan Allford, a Radcast Network production. Visit Ryan
 is right.com for full audio and video versions of the show or to inquire about sponsorship opportunities.
 Thanks for listening.