Ryan talks with guest Steve Babcock, former Chief Creative Office at VaynerMedia

 Welcome to the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 Here is your host, Ryan Alford.
 Hey guys, welcome to the latest episode of the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 Pretty stoked for today.
 You know, we kind of come in and out of agency and marketing world
 and I think this is about a straight line as it gets.
 But Steve Babcock, really excited to have you on today's episode.
 Awesome. Thank you. Happy to be here.
 Yeah, so Steve is the current and the founder and you know,
 you're not a title guy of Maiden House.
 And the former Chief Creative Officer of VaynerMedia
 spent time at CPB, some of the who's who's in agency world, you know.
 But all around creative dude, is that fair to say?
 I think that's probably the more accurate title.
 Or maybe even just all around dude.
 Yeah, more dude than anything else.
 Cool man, I'm really excited to have you on and you know, we've been
 you know, talking the last couple of months just here and there.
 But excited to kind of tell in here, you know, our guys are audience
 to hear some of your story and background.
 Especially for both people, we have a lot of people, you know,
 they agency people maybe in the southeast or you know,
 a little more regionally based and, you know, they know the VaynerMedia name
 and Gary Vee and stuff.
 But I think hearing the, you know, the width and depth of your experience
 and you know, kind of just some of your perspectives on where the market was headed.
 You know, it's like pre-COVID and post-COVID.
 So I definitely want to get some of your takes on that.
 You know, I don't know that it's changed definitively.
 Marketing is marketing, branding is branding.
 I think we both have a love for content and branded content.
 We'll talk about that, but you know, I do want to get your perspective
 because it's kind of the crazy world out there, isn't it?
 Yeah, definitely.
 Well, cool Steve.
 I'd love for, you know, let's just start, you know, right down the path.
 I'd love for people just to kind of give, you know, your history and background
 in the agency world and marketing and maybe just some of your general philosophies.
 But maybe just kind of that history timeline and some of the campaigns you've worked on
 is kind of tee up that for for everyone.
 Sure. Yeah.
 Well, I grew up, I was born and raised in a one-stop-light town in southern Idaho,
 which a lot of people think, wait, Iowa?
 No, Idaho.
 The second ad mecca of the world.
 Yeah, exactly.
 So I grew up there and kind of a whole life.
 And you know, during my childhood, it was very interested kind of oddly enough
 in like film, I was the youngest of five kids and we would make like home movies,
 like super eight home movies, like in the 80s and VHS.
 And I was really into like editing and things like that at a young age.
 Like this is back when you're editing with like two VCRs.
 And I know half of your listeners are like, what is a VCR?
 Just Google it.
 But, but I was always into that.
 I was always in a music art and design and those things.
 But I had no idea really in that area of like advertising was a job.
 In my mind, I was like, I'm going to be a director.
 I'm going to go make movies, Steven Spielberg, you know?
 And so I went to school at the University of Utah in just kind of down the road.
 It was like the closest university.
 I was also to be fair, a pretty avid snowboarder.
 So that really influenced.
 I was like, I'm going to go there and just snowboard.
 And I'll go to like a film department.
 And while I was in school, a friend, I needed a job, kind of like a part-time job.
 And a friend knew somebody who worked at the time as the largest agency in that in that area.
 It was called DSW partners.
 And they were famous for making the intel inside the little.
 You know, it was at the time.
 It was like a big agency.
 And I remember I got an interview and I walked in there.
 And I was just like blown away because it was like, you know, the, the walls were all painted groovy colors.
 And people were dressed in like flip-flop.
 You know, I'd never, I don't know.
 I was like, this is a job.
 And anyway, I got the job.
 And it was a, to work in what was called the business center.
 It's like the mail room.
 And I did all the odd jobs.
 It was kind of like everything guy.
 And, and it was great job because it allowed me, it was very flexible.
 You know, I could go to my classes.
 I could come back.
 But what was really cool is it really introduced me to advertising.
 And, and when you, when you're the mail person and you're sorting and delivering everyone's mail,
 and you get to know I'm back in the day.
 This is kind of pre-email.
 You get to know everything about everybody based on their subscriptions and things that they get.
 I realized like creative department was really cool because this agency kind of everybody sat in their department.
 This is amazing.
 I love these people.
 And I befriended them.
 And, um, kind of long story short there is that agency ended up having a scholarship contest for all students in Utah.
 And you could submit a portfolio.
 And because I wasn't a, I was just a part-time employee.
 I was eligible.
 So I befriended our director there who let me use his computer at nights.
 So I just kind of taught myself Photoshop for and put together a portfolio of just horrible fake ads.
 And I ended up working in the contest and then they gave me a job as a cop, as a junior copywriter.
 And which I was surprised by because I thought I was trying to be a art director or a designer, but I just went with it.
 And that was kind of, that's how I got into.
 So I also, they let me finish school and et cetera.
 But I was all of a sudden, I'm like, I guess I'm in this industry.
 And, um, and I liked it and I just kind of kept going.
 I was in the, in the Utah market, finished school, got married.
 I was also in a band.
 And so that was sort of pulling me both ways.
 But eventually, as does happen, the band dreams kind of died.
 And that's when we said, well, let's take this a little more seriously.
 We moved out to Colorado, where I was in Colorado for 10 years.
 And I worked at Crispin Port of Auguste.
 And when I left Crispin Port of Auguste, I was one of the two executive creative directors there.
 And then I took an opt, a really fun opportunity of an agency at a San Francisco had reached out.
 They needed a creative leader, but they also were interested in building a second office in Boulder in Colorado.
 So I was like, this is cool. I get to kind of do a startup thing, but with training wheels.
 So that was really, really fun, very different going from this mecca of Crispin, where there's, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people to all of a sudden.
 I'm going to target to get the toilet paper for the office, you know.
 But it was really fun to learn how to grow an office from pretty much nobody to around 30 to 40 people.
 And then I got a call from this guy in New York, who I've never heard of, named Gary.
 And I didn't know the agency or anything about it.
 And again, this was, this was maybe it's probably five and a half years ago now or maybe six years.
 I can't remember, but in 2014, 2015.
 Yeah, it's 2015. Yeah, and summer of 2015.
 And we, you know, my initial reaction was no thanks like New York's not for me.
 I don't know who you are.
 I just wasn't on my radar didn't sound like something that I was interested in doing.
 And we spoke for about six or seven months and, you know, Gary's the best salesman I've ever met.
 And the proof of that is all of a sudden my family and I are packing up and moving to New York.
 And so I took that job, that opportunity, which was really a fun challenge to be the first Chief Creative Officer of VaynerMedia.
 And when I walked into those doors, it was, it was really.
 I was very taken aback because it just wasn't, it didn't look or feel like anything I'd ever experienced.
 It was, it was chaos. I always would call it like a pleasant Lord of the flies because it was nice.
 It was just as chaotic as possible.
 And I got excited. Eventually I turned a corner in my mind because at first I was like, you know, thanks.
 But then I got excited about like, I want to fix this operationally.
 This is, there's a lot of good stuff here. There's a lot of good philosophy.
 And, and so I did that for about four years.
 And, and then where I am now is one year in the books of my own business made in house, which is a in house consultancy working with brands directly to help them build their in house agencies.
 So a lot to kind of dig into there. I mean, so it CPP, you were there for about six years.
 Is that right?
 Yeah.
 What were maybe some of the more memorable campaigns or work that you worked on there?
 I mean, with the, is there person be pretty big?
 And they have some pretty household names under their roster.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 I mean, that was, I mean, Chris Ben was, was, especially at the time, was you were pumping out so much volume.
 We were just, you know, it had a, it had a little bit of a reputation for being this like crazy sweatshop and, and it wasn't in that like no one was forcing you.
 We did kind of did it to ourselves like your offices had frutons in it like you were sleeping there overnight.
 You were just, because there was so much opportunity, whether it was Burger King or Volkswagen, you know, I, I added an early time there was given the pitch for dominoes.
 So I won that account and get a lot of the early work on dominoes.
 The thing that I think had most famous for is the pizza tracker.
 Yeah.
 Those, which was, is something that I, I would reference a lot.
 I don't know if it's my favorite.
 I mean, you just made so much stuff there.
 I can't even remember everything.
 The pizza tracker, for example, I will reference a lot because I like that it was a solution to a problem that wasn't an ad.
 Right.
 Dominoes really came to us. This was kind of when online ordering wasn't the thing.
 And that was the assignment was like, how do we get to come up with a campaign to get more people to order online.
 There's a variety of reasons why ordering online is good for dominoes.
 The ticket price is higher.
 There's lower margin of error. They don't have to pay for somebody to answer the phone.
 There's a lot of good reasons for it.
 And typically what people would do is, and I remember that's what my boss at the time said was like, come up with something.
 Just don't do like dollar off ordering online.
 Like don't try to come up with something that isn't giving it for giving away for free, which is something that most people would do because they thought, well, if I can get you to just try it once, then maybe you'll get interested in the idea of doing it online.
 So anyway, I simultaneously to work on dominoes, or at least as a leadership team, you have to go to pizza school.
 Maybe I don't know if they still do it, but it was like a week long training to be like a manager.
 And I learned that the whole system was attached to a, like every dominoes literally has a physical button between each station because they're all kind of, it's all about speed and efficiency.
 And you as a local domino store, you get as a manager, you get bonus based on that efficiency. So I'm like, wait a minute.
 At any given moment, I know when an order's been taken, I hit a button. I know when a pizza is being prepped, I hit a button.
 I know when it's in the oven, it takes six minutes. I hit a button. I know when it's you have all this information.
 Yeah.
 Cool. Why don't we make a thing? And we also knew from an insights perspective that like when people ordered pizza or food and home on the phone, they were kind of left with like, yeah, no, I don't know.
 I was just thinking, you know, being an agency guy and coming up on the account and strategy side, I was in my planner head going, you have a, you have a consumer that with online ordering, especially the nether world that that goes into an insight is consumers are, they have no idea what is the stats, that control, they have no control.
 And you've, you've not, you bring that to life, you know, I'm backing my way into this brief as you're talking.
 And so we, we originally said, well, let's just, this is perfect. You already have the information. Let's create a consumer facing, you know, dashboard at the moment it was like this little pill looking thing.
 And it just pulsed and told you where it was. And again, it could tell you, you know, the name of the person doing the prep and the name of it told you the name of the delivery driver because all that information was in their system.
 So also you knew, like, oh, Ron is coming, he's going to be here soon, just sort of knowing the name of the person is like, helped you.
 And then originally it was exclusive for online orders. Now I think if you call or whatever you can use the pizza track, no matter what.
 But that's what it was. So we came up with a tool that didn't cheapen the brand or created discount.
 And, and it did more than we didn't do like ads or like TV ad or anything was just like that. And it worked really, really well. So I always, I like to reference that just because it reminds me, like, focus on the problem.
 Like, I think a lot of times in our industry, we jumped so quickly to like, what's the creative execution? What's the creative? What's the creative? What's the creative? And I might spend 80% of your time on the problem, the business challenge, the audience, the insight.
 Like do that. And then like 20% of your time on, because it will be there, you'll be like, oh, here's the obvious solution. So that, you know, that was, that was really, really fun. I worked.
 Why are you to be a politician or a president or something? You know, like, I think focus on the problem. That's probably the title of this podcast. But it's like, it's so true and so many other things too, because we become, we become so about everything else, you know.
 It was one of my Andrew Keller, who is the executive creative director right under Bugusky there. He said a thing to me once that I have, which is interesting. I remember I went into his office. I was mad about something or there was some issue.
 I think we had a campaign that was sold and then there was feedback. And I went in there and I was expecting him to be like, I'll call him up and tell him like, you know, blah, blah. And I really didn't and he said the one thing that is probably in the best advice I've ever had in my career.
 And he said, dude, he's like, the minute you learn to love solving problems is the minute you're going to learn that you love this job. Yeah.
 And as a creative person that just hit me really hard, like, that is the job is like, and so, and I think when I showed up at Vayner Media years later, I was all of a sudden confronted surprisingly with like a pretty big problem.
 Like it just was like, I didn't, this is insane. Like the department set up weird. We don't even have strategy. It was just so foreign to me. Yeah, at that point, like, no, no, I want to solve this problem.
 And I think it's one of the reasons I started made in house. Trust me, every in house agency is just a big problem.
 No one has figured it out. It's all over the place. And I like to pop in and go, this is fun. This is fun to fix these things.
 Yeah. Well, the whole in-house thing is, you know, brands think they can cherry pick. I can get, I can hire a writer, a graphic designer, a creative person, a count person. And now we solved it, you know.
 I know, you know, there's methods of madness. But I do, you know, transitioning to the Vayner Media thing. It's always been fascinating, you know, working in a New York agency, you know, working at other agencies now owning an agency.
 You know, Gary has the anti-agency vibe. He's the anti-New York agency. And I'm like, you know, you hire 800 people and they all work in New York. You very much are a New York agency.
 I don't care what you call it or what you say. There's just a way that things become when you start hiring people that have worked at a million other agencies.
 So I don't know how, I know he has culture and I'm not knocking that at all. I'm just more talking philosophically about, you know, the anti-agency theme. But it sounds like you may have brought some of that anarchy.
 You know, because again, you got to be operational. You know, it's one thing to move fast.
 But it's a whole other thing to operationally solve problems and get things done.
 Well, I do think like, yeah, it's, yeah, I mean, it definitely is. It's, it's, it's, it's a big agency based in New York, you know, but I think like, you know, that's also an interesting thing where
 because that's something I never really, you know, that was kind of his narrative. My narrative is very less like, it's like everything. Everybody has potential to be great. Like I don't, I don't need to like, but that's, you know, I'm not a CEO that I don't own the company.
 And I think that was a lot of what he, it was like, hey,
 you know, it was like, I'm going to kind of knock everything else down to, to kind of build myself up.
 Because like, that's, you can't really just say, oh, big New York agency. It's like, there's so many different colors in that statement.
 There's, you know, I mean, Chris Ben was a big, not New York, but they were big agencies.
 72 and 70s and big agents. He drove a wide as a big agency. These are all great.
 They're, yeah, I mean, my cans, you know, and it's like, so I don't really know. It's not that.
 I think the thing where, where Gary and I read and kind of what sparked me eventually to say, okay, I'm on the same page with this guy. And so I moved out to New York was not the agency or anything, but just the mindset.
 I don't think there's anything wrong with like business model or like the model or I think it's the mindset. And that was very much like, I believe very much in making versus talking about stuff forever and focus grouping and getting a million people.
 And a lot of agencies located anywhere in the world.
 Historically, have made their money by selling a service that requires a lot of FTEs, full-time employees, just a lot of time to make something that costs a lot of money because they mark, they get the mark upon that.
 And that made so much sense back then coming to today's world where marketers need the exact opposite. They're like, I need a whole bunch of really awesome content.
 I need it yesterday and I need it for half the cost, but I still made it to be really, really good.
 That is maybe the difference. If I were to say, we're, you know, Vayner, the goal was like, we want to be that.
 And that does stand in a little bit of contrast to a quote-unquote, big New York agency with a model. But the reality is, you know, and one of the things that even everybody struggles with, even if Vayner we struggle with is like, how do we really do that?
 How do we get into a system that can produce the volume of quality for the cost that is required in a world where brands have a Snapchat lens to a Super Bowl commercial and everything in between.
 And that was, that was difficult to do. And again, I'm certainly not a CFO, but I have a lot of empathy for the CFO there where it's like, no, we have to make money.
 And again, is why I was like, see if I can make this work in house. But, yeah, I mean, but also I think, you know, he's a salesman, he's a motivational speaker, his, his, his tool is his mouth, he talks like he likes, he likes controversy, he likes, say stuff, because everyone stirred up.
 So that's just kind of his, that's his stick, that's his, that's his thing.
 I was, you know, how was the culture there? I mean, you know, is it, was it everything he made it seem? I mean, I know no sales, you know, is, you know, the end product is never live up to, you know, some of the, the statements that are made or the salesman ship that happens.
 I mean, was how was the culture there? You know, goes, yeah, it was, it was good. I mean, it was, you know, I remember when I got there, I was actually originally kind of shocked. And I think maybe because this was the first time in my career where I was like, I was the old person, just because everybody felt so young.
 I do remember being like, man, I'm not used to this many like feelings, like it was, like at Christmas, it was just like, you just shut up and you do it. And if someone says, this isn't right, do it again. You just went back and it was, I was so, maybe I was so like in this like military.
 Yeah, all that came to a spot where I came in and said, hey, I don't think this is right. Let's try this and this and this and the reaction was like, no, you've heard my feelings. I'm like, I don't know how to deal with this like go.
 So, but I think the culture was fine. My biggest challenge for me was it wasn't a culture rooted in creativity. It's a media company founded by a business guy.
 So it was a lot about just like efficiency and just making stuff and I'm, I was charged with coming in and that was a little bit of the healthy struggle was like, no, no, no, no, this stuff matters.
 Humans are emotional people. So the actual creative that we make needs to be able to connect with that emotion. But it just, it's not in there. So the culture is really sort of hustle, Gary V. Entrepreneur starting businesses.
 And it was a challenge.
 I like a culture that's a little bit more celebratory of the product that we make. So for example, when you, when we would have like our town hall meetings or our all agency meetings, like there was the first agency that where I had ever worked where we didn't show creative work that we have done recently.
 And that was hard, you know, I don't know. I think it was, and I would always ask Gary like, can we do that and I think he, I just, you know, my sense is he wanted this, he's like, no, I'll have the microphone. This is the Gary V thing. This isn't the work.
 And, and to me, I was always like, you know, even working at places like Crispin, where it's like Alex Bugusky at the time was like the Michael Jordan of advertising.
 Still just all about the work. He never even, he didn't like to speak. He didn't like to do any of that stuff. And so I was very used to that.
 So I started kind of having my own town halls that were just creative showcases. It's like it's important for us. We're big enough.
 It's important for us to see the work, to celebrate the work, to see the work that we don't know that we've even made because another team made it. I just, I believe that's a really healthy culture is around that the product that we make.
 But it's, I would say the culture is fine. It was friendly. It was fairly big. And, but it, but I prefer personally a culture that's more around right.
 The product we make. And I think that is what actually really unites and brings people together.
 Sometimes the culture at Vainer was difficult, just because it was kind of the byproduct of whatever Gary was saying that week.
 And so he'd be off on it. Now we're doing this. And everyone's like, Scram, I'm going to be like, now we're that agency. He's like, now we're doing this. And we're like, now we're that agency.
 So sometimes it was a little challenging. But for the most part, it was like, I can't say it was like, at least during my time there, there was nothing like spec.
 Like, there was no like, ooh, that's the golden ticket of the culture.
 Yeah.
 This was, was, you know, we talked about this a little bit pre episode, you know, the, it's got to be a little tough because look, everybody wants some credit, right?
 Yeah, we're human beings, you know, and you strike me as the notness, little bit I know about you.
 I think you take pride in the work, but you don't, it doesn't have to have Steve's name on it every time necessarily. I'm sensing that about you.
 But whether it's you or whether it's the fiefdom you had there, you know, the guys you're motivating when it's all about one person.
 And look, he's super successful. I'm not, I look up to him in certain ways, you know, I don't, I am not a hater.
 But it is always fassing to me, the wondering what can, how you have longevity there and self motivation when it doesn't seem like anyone else gets the idea credit.
 And I guess you just have to be okay with that there because I'm sure, you know, I hear things out of his mouth and I'm like, this guy's got more ideas than anybody.
 I know, and I know that's natural, but who's mouth this was really come out of, you know, because I've heard some things that he said that I've heard you say.
 And I'm not again, trying to create this divide. It's more interesting, you know, how you keep more people motivated when, you know, the ideas seem to all credit one individual.
 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think philosophically why you maybe have heard a lot of the things we've said similar is because we do have, we agree there.
 I think I'll typically say them a little bit differently, etc. But when it comes to like creative and things like that, you know, my philosophy as a leader has always been to empower pretty much everybody else and to give that credit to everybody else because you know that that is like catnip to a cat.
 You know, they like, they want that and they want to grow and do more of that. And so, but I do think it's, it's a bit of a challenge.
 You know, for if, if, and again, I really don't know what it's like to have eight million followers on Instagram and to be stopped everywhere I go.
 And ever we would like ever we go with like we're getting selfies for people shaking hands, right, you know, and I, and to me, that actually, I mean, I think I'm quite kind and social, but I don't like that.
 I'd be like, I mean, I would start to get noticed a little just like your Steve, you know, just by, by association and I'd be like, yep, and I'm going to dinner. See you later.
 I don't get, he loves that. And that's why he's so good at it. Like genuinely loves that. There's no act. It is him there. And he loves it. I'm more of an introvert, I guess. But I think when you are when your whole like livelihood is being in the spotlight.
 I mean, that is his thing. Like he's the one with the microphone. He's the one talking. He's of it. I think he just naturally sort of like default. You're not used to saying like, I'm going to give this spotlight to somebody else.
 I never felt like there was any, it was just weird. It was like, you know, I, I, I find myself defending him a lot, you know, when people want to talk about him or whatever, because it's like, I found him to be.
 One of the better kind of human beings that I've ever known, like just he has such a kind heart, he really does here. But I do think he gets in this moment where that grapples with the celebrityism and just sort of what you're used to.
 So I don't find that if there's ever been a time when I'm like, I think you should have given the credit to somebody else. I think this for this. I've never found it like intentional or malicious. It was just like, yeah, you kind of are in that zone where that's your, that's your brand and that's your vehicle. You feel like you're the best sounding board to tell the world, hey, this is what we're doing. And I'm doing it. And I'm doing it. And I'm doing it because you feel like you have to put it all on your shoulders for it to be successful.
 So it's an interesting, it's kind of an interesting scenario where you would see it. And sometimes there'd be people that would kind of come up to me like, man, like, we came up with that. Like, when it had been that hard for him to say thanks to the team, whatever. And it's like, he doesn't mean it. I promise he I worked with people who do mean it in the and like promise. It's different.
 For me personally, I think we work well together because I was okay with that. I'm fine with it being like fine. Take the.
 Yeah, maybe I would be better. Maybe I'd be further along in my career if I was more bullish about those things. I just don't have it in me. And.
 And so I think we work well together where I would be like, you know, like I don't need, I don't need that part, but I would see that sometimes when people I who are on my team did need it. And I would.
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 It's like I said, agencies were creativity is is the culture doesn't matter your position. Everyone's like, we know the North star.
 Like, whether I can be the custodial person there and I know that Chris was like.
 had, you knew why what the North Star that age as he was. I was like, Vayner, that was
 probably the, if there was a number one challenge, was like, you had no idea what the North Star
 was, just dependent on the week, you know? And I had my North Star and sometimes Gary
 had his and sometimes somebody else had theirs. And that was a bit of a, a bit of a challenge
 was just trying to, trying to do that.
 So I, well, I attribute this line to you or him, creativity is the ultimate variable of success.
 That's his line. Yeah. That's his line. I, uh, I would find it times where I'm like,
 I would say it back to him when I felt like he wasn't, when he was sort of poo-pooing or just
 kind of going, you're like, you say yourself, it's the variable success. Like, I love it. Yeah,
 no, that's, that's his line for sure. Cool. Um, is, um, is, is the platform, you know, for him,
 I mean, because I almost think, you know, Gary is the ultimate variable of success with very,
 very, very, very media, you know, like, you know, and I think, so like, I mean, it, he's, it says it,
 like, if he went away, you know, where does the agency go? And so I mean, I don't know that
 that's true or not true, but we'll see how it goes. But I look up to him for, he's been super
 successful and kind of, I love how he kind of, you know, shoots the middle bird at, you know,
 anyone and everyone that's like, doubts him and, you know, but I do wonder like, when you do that,
 it's, you think, how do you foster and how could you have foster entrepreneurship when the only
 entrepreneur really allowed to be the entrepreneurs, the leader, you know, like, so I wonder when
 that will be an issue, you know, because you really need, he needs sheep more than anything else
 on, in a way. So I don't know where that, when that rubber hits the road, but hey, success is
 obviously there. No, like I said, I can't, I don't know what it's like to, to wear his shoes,
 although he gave me a pair of his shoes. So I guess that's, this is the one time when that analogy
 makes a lot of sense, he would, what many, one of his many case swiss shoes, but, you know, that,
 that's an ultimate challenge, I think, to any leader. And again, he's, he is a special, there's
 a reason he's successful and there's a reason he's who he is. He has a lot of character traits,
 especially work ethic, it's unlike anything I've ever seen. But, and I even saw this at, at
 Crispin too, when Alex left Crispin, it was like, whoa, you know, like he hadn't really prepared the
 bench. And, and, and I think that, that exit was a little unexpected, yeah, Alex, but, but, you know,
 that, that was definitely a challenge for a lot of, I, of observation I, I made there for, you know,
 there was a lot of the sea suite there with me, we have chief strategy officer in there,
 just what most agencies have was like, you know, it, it, I always felt like it is important,
 not even for me as an individual, just as an agency. I always felt that it was important for
 VaynerMedia to be able to build a reputation amongst the industry and amongst potential clients,
 that was, yeah, Gary's the CEO of it, but there is a lot to this place. There's a lot of other stuff
 you may or may not know of, because yeah, you would look across the board and I'd be like, there are
 some, and there is some of the best talent I'd ever worked for, especially in the media side. I
 mean, that was, there are some people in the media side, strategists, of course, creative, and it was
 like, I really feel like we need to, in fact, right before I left, we finally did hire an individual
 to just kind of come in and be sort of PR and like grow these stories and get, so it just wasn't
 because I had a way, Gary's always polarizing. So half the, half potential clients like him and
 the other, I'm, hey, you don't know whatever, or don't like him. And I was like, either way,
 it's important to, to pull that curtain back a little bit, because there's 900 people here
 who make this place work. And I think it's important to, and it's one thing where, especially
 in the creative side, I always like, and I'm always admire creative leaders who, you know, work to
 get their executive creative directors or group creative directors to get them some airtime, to
 get them on podcasts or writing articles or whatever. I just think that's really important.
 It's, it's hard. I understand as a creative leader, you know, you're like, there is this natural
 sense. Everyone has a little insecurity of like, well, I don't want this person right below me
 to seem better than me, because then they'll take my job or whatever. I just think at the end of the
 day, like, even if they do take your job, like, if you've grown them to be able to take your job,
 you've done your job. But I just, I find that's always the better approach is to always be building
 your army, because that's how you can scale. And that's, and I still haven't seen, even in the
 years since I've been out of it. I still haven't seen that that's been done very well. And so,
 yeah, I think if he did leave, it would be kind of like what the heck. I don't know if anyone
 told you or maybe, I mean, you know, his name is the thing. So, I don't think he's leaving. So,
 I hope he's not. No, I hope he's not either. But transition just for a minute, you know, to,
 you know, you've built, we're building made in house. I know just like everyone that COVID is kind of
 like rock the boat. I'm sure with just, you know, opportunities and projects being
 paused and everything's like that. But I am curious philosophically, you know, your,
 your creative north star now, if you so call it, you know, I know we've talked a little bit about
 the, the media companies sides and maybe diving to that a bit. But, you know, what's your kind of
 overall philosophy for where you see things going, you know, both I guess post post COVID and,
 you know, if there's going to be an impact, but love kind of get some thoughts there.
 Yeah, I mean, I think my hope is, you know, on the other side of this, I do think
 you're seeing the industry or for the most part, you're seeing a lot of brands learn a valuable
 lesson, which is like just to really, really focus on the insight and the needs of the consumer.
 Um, you know, I think right out of the gates, all the brands did that usual thing of just like,
 and these unprecedented, you know, just kind of saying, making an ad and not really realizing,
 wait a minute. Queue dramatic music. Yeah, I like cameras. It's like, and then there was
 a second wave that, I think it was better. We're also brands took us them back and they thought,
 oh yeah, this is unlike anything we've ever experienced. People are quarantined in their homes,
 their kids are out of school. They're trying to learn from home. Parents are going crazy.
 And they've had to then go now that, oh, and it was also one of the first times, at least in my
 lifetime, where I've ever seen like, there was like a poll that was like 70% of people do not want
 to hear from brands right now. It's just like, it's just the last thing you want to hear. When
 you're someone that's like, I don't even know if I'm going to have money to buy mac and cheese. I
 don't want a mac and cheese. You know, and it was like, yeah, everyone was grappling with this.
 And then brand started to get smart and go, okay, well, here's the, and I think also brands will
 start to focus more on having meaning that transcends just the thing they sell. This is why we exist
 as a brand. We can have a reason, we can have a place in culture that is beyond just the product
 that we sell or the service we sell. So brand started to say, well, that's, we have that.
 And now, given this current reality, how can we go in and answer and meet the needs of our
 consumer based on their, their situation? And so, you know, you were seeing some, some fun things
 that, or a lot of brands were also saying, we need to help. So let's use our media dollars to
 remind people that they need to stay home or they need to wear a mask or they need to do whatever.
 So my hope is that once we get, you know, back to where we're out in society and doing
 these things, that brands will not forget, even when things are completely normal or whatever,
 that like, let's still spend that time, let's still spend 80% of the time on the problem
 and on the audience. Let's spend a week or that. So, and it's not as early, I guess my message
 would be more to creatives, just because that's the realm I've been in. Creative, market,
 creative people at agencies or in-house or whatever to go, always, no matter what the situation is,
 is spend all the time you can understanding the problem and understanding your audience.
 Don't jump so quickly to just like, I just want to make an ad to talk at people versus like,
 spend the time, invest the time in them and then you're going to talk with them, you know.
 Yep, I did a webinar last week for Greenville Homebuilders, they invited me on to do it for their
 association or whatever and I talked about customer-centric marketing is going to win the day,
 you know, and I think it's down there. Product-centric, central or service-centric versus customer-centric.
 And solving solutions for the cause, you know, problems that solving problems that consumers have
 with your marketing instead of speed feeds, feeders, all those things. That's right.
 So, I think you're going to see the ones that can do that even elevate higher because to your point
 with the surveys, it's so funny, all this stuff is going on. I've told them people, these snowballs
 were rolling downhill. A lot of these themes. Summers don't want to be marketed. Summers don't want to
 be sold. Summers don't want to hear from brands. These things, these are like, these are like little
 bonfires that have gas being poured on them with everything going on, you know, in a lot of ways.
 You know, companies needing, you know, being a little inflated, needing to be leaner.
 You know, all that was trending. And now we're just like, and being able to,
 you know, the quarantine, I think, has been interesting just because it's forced a very scrappy
 style of production, which is something that you just need to do no matter what. You need to be able
 to back to what we were talking about way earlier was like, just to be able to make the volume
 and still make it good at the cost. And so it's been really interesting theirs. Like, how do you
 go back to, you know, again, once we get on the other side of this, how do you maintain those
 principles of like, well, we know how to shoot this for, we know to be more cost effective. I think
 agency structure, like you just said, is like, you don't need 18 levels of chief global creative,
 you know, galactic creative office. You don't need it. You know, and, and, you know, for the first
 time in my career, you're seeing those kinds of individuals, you know, unfortunately, but you're
 seeing them let go and you're like, wait a minute. What? And it's like, at the end of the day,
 when you can no longer charge a client just to have huge exorbitants salaries, you know,
 you do have to focus on, I don't think there's room anymore. If you're creative, especially,
 there's no more room for just thinkers and idea people. You have to be able to do something that
 makes that idea real. In some way, right? You can't have the 18 people to screw in a light bulb.
 You've got to be able to go, hey, I can come up with that idea and I can at least make a prototype
 of it. Or I can at least do this, right? I think that is awesome. We have the tools. It's so easy to
 make and to create. And there's just, if there's anything really is like, that's going to be the
 thing. COVID-19 or whatever won't erase advertising, but it's going to make those who fail to say,
 hey, I need to be able to offer more than just an idea. I need to be able to do something
 to make that idea reality. Yeah, the Kumbaya moments of, you know, 12 people around the creative
 director. And let's share our ideas. That one's no good. This one's good. I don't know. I think
 those days are, you can still have those, those 12 people that they're all making every one of those
 ideas. That's right. I wouldn't get that one made. Let's do that one. That's the world we
 have to be in. And then also the creative director's like, and I've got two. I'm going to be making
 it. I'll see you guys tomorrow and we'll look at what we got. It's got to be that. When we were,
 you know, we built radical in that very mold. We're very no bureaucracy and our creative director,
 you know, is he's working on his two and grading the other four or grading is the wrong word,
 but evaluating. Yeah. It's just think seasoning, you know. There you go.
 But it's fascinating. What's what's the future hold for Steve Babcock?
 Geez. That's the golden question. You know, it's this last year has been really,
 probably one of the more interesting years of my career. A, I waited kind of a long time to
 try the entrepreneurial thing and maybe was emotionally the worst time just with kids and all that,
 you know, but like, but it taught me a lot. It was like, wait, I can do this. Like it's, you know,
 I don't know if I'm really an entrepreneur like, but it was very, I was always scared of doing it.
 And I got out there was like, hey, I can do this. And I've really, really enjoyed working on
 the brand side. And like I said, every time I step in, it's like, awesome. This is a great problem.
 We can easily fix this. And I've really enjoyed watching that transformation and just being,
 it's, there's a lot of, I don't know, I've worked in advertising for 20 years and not until
 Made in House was like the first time I've ever had someone thank me. You know, for like, for helping
 them out, there's just, I don't know why. I think maybe the industry of advertising such a
 thankless job and to go in there and, and have conversations after you spend like a month with a
 team and to have like the lead creative that come to you after it would just be like, I want to thank
 you so much for how much you've helped, you know, it's just how I feel really good about it.
 I will say the travel that is required for consultants is like a bit much, it's a bit heavy, but
 I probably as no surprise, you know, I remember March 12th exactly. It was all my stuff just went,
 we're going to put this on pause, we're going to dry. So it's made in house is very much on pause.
 I mean, I'm doing like a few things here and there, but not at the level that I want. I don't think
 half the world is doing the things at the level. So right now, it's a little bit of a of weight and
 sea. Like, is this going to, what kind of, you know, how long is this going to take?
 But also, you know, thinking a little bit about my wonder if, you know, I've been noodleing a
 little bit about how to take made in house and turn it into something that's a little bit more
 of an agency based on a lot of the philosophies that I've learned by spending time in house.
 And I've got a couple concepts from like that, that would work really well.
 And, and I'll admit, there are times where I'm like, man, I miss having a big team of people.
 I do, sometimes I miss like, I don't know if it's an agency, but, or maybe it's a brand,
 if they want to start it in, you know, if there's something, I do miss that sort of like,
 because even as a consultant, even if you spend some time there, you're still an outsider.
 Yeah. And I do, I kind of miss that little like family mentality. So what's next is,
 as good a guest as anybody can, can have and just kind of like everybody taking it sort of week by
 week, like I said, I'm a father with three, three kids and two of them are teenagers. So that's a big
 part of, of my life and just kind of figuring it out. But I don't know. I think after a year of
 made in house, I've learned that the pivot can be fun and can be good. So I'm okay going like,
 I don't know. Um, we'll see. Maybe I'll become an East professional esports player. I've been
 getting pretty good at Fortnite with my kid. So maybe I'll be the oldest professional esports guy.
 No, it's, hey, there's your media company right there. Twitch is blowing up.
 Watching people play video games. You never see that old white bald guy on Twitch.
 He's rags. One of my dear friends is actually, he's, I wouldn't call this, he's definitely older.
 I think you and I are somewhere in eight, probably more than you realize, I'm, I'm 43. The, uh,
 I just, uh, four, three. There we go. So, uh, when my good friend Scott Cole, he is the voice of
 NBA 2K. Um, and he, uh, he's huge. Scott, look him up. Scott Cole's cold train. Um, but, uh, he's
 huge in esports and as a personality, he can, he's a hell of a video game player, but he's,
 personality's done stuff with maddening. He's been on in a, in a film network and done a lot of things.
 But, uh, and he's, he's, he's a, he's the old bald dude on, uh, on esports right now. But I think
 there's room for more. I love it, man. Esports is, I, I mean, I'm a small investor. I don't know,
 no gravy, but I'm a very small investor in, uh, in a couple esports things that I just, it's a,
 and again, I have a son who's, who's very into it. I, I don't love that world. I think it's a lot of
 fun. I think brands can, it's a place where brands need to get more involved in, uh, beyond just like
 NASCAR logos on jerseys and things. It's a put for man. It's like creativity is just waiting
 to explode in esports because right now it's still just sponsorships and a lot of, a lot of versus
 like getting it and come up with something because I think a lot of brands and a lot of the world
 just doesn't understand how gigantic esports really is. I mean, it is beyond, uh, it's a lot of fun.
 So, um, yeah, I don't know. We'll see. I love it. If I can have my way, I'd become a talk show host.
 So maybe, maybe, maybe I'll get, maybe I'll be on a tight show, who knows? Well, the more of these,
 you do, maybe we're just, we're building on your reel with nothing else. There you go. That's all
 I'm really doing. Yeah. It's all for me. It's all for me. Steve, working everybody, keep up with you.
 What's the best way to do that? Well, fortunately, I am one of, of two Steve Babcock's in the world
 that I've ever been able to find. The other one is a karate instructor, I think in Indiana.
 So if you Google Steve Babcock and get the karate guy, I've tried to hit him up because he own
 Steve Babcock.com, but it turns out he's got a pretty healthy karate instructor in just, you know,
 business going on. But, um, yeah, just, I mean, we're pretty active on Instagram. At Steve happens,
 is my handle there, or LinkedIn, or just email, Steve Babcock at gmail.com. So I'm pretty much
 on the internet. Cool, man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and look forward to kind of
 continuing our dialogue and, you know, and, you know, it's fascinating. I know we just scratched
 the surface on a lot of the brands and campaigns you worked on, but I think there's some really
 good nuggets here for just, you know, your philosophy with creative, your philosophy with teams,
 and I know that our audience will really appreciate your insight. And I appreciate you just
 been at the time. Absolutely. I appreciate your hat on me. It's been a lot of fun. And, uh,
 and, um, yeah, I'm, uh, it's been a good conversation. Thanks for having me on. Yeah.
 All right, guys, that's all for today's episode of the Radical Marketing Podcast.
 I want to appreciate Steve Babcock for coming on. We'll see you next time.
 To learn more about Radical, visit Radical.com on the web,
 or follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Thanks for listening to the Radical Marketing Podcast.