Mergers, Mindsets, and the Magic of Brand Mastery with Richard Kestenbaum

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Hi and welcome to the Handbag Designer 101 podcast with your host, Emily Blumenthal, handbag designer expert and handbag fairy godmother, where we cover everything about handbags from making marketing, designing and talking to handbag designers and industry experts about what it takes to make a successful handbag.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Welcome, Richard Kestenbaum of Triangle Capital LLC, the illustrious company that everybody needs to know and needs to be part of.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I think I can confidently say, richard, I can always keep you laughing and I don't know if you laugh as much if you're not speaking to me and I noticed for people who obviously can't see you.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Are you done with the bow tie phase?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Is that done?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Did I have a bow tie phase?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Yeah, what is?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>that you did.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I got you a bow tie when you helped me with one of my deals.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, that would be a bow tie day, and it's always a happy day when I see you, emily, so you are a force of nature, and it has been my honor to know you for a long time.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And a pleasure.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So thank you, well said and appreciated.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I actually met you and I know you would probably know this because you were one of these very impressive people that keeps notes in your phone for how and when and where you meet people, and I tell my students that all the time that is a secret sauce for relationships.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>You were actually speaking on a panel at a women in business conference at Fordham where I got my MBA, and I made a beeline to you saying we need to be friends or something.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So I would love to talk to you about and again, this isn't so much what the podcast is about, but like who you are and what you do and how you stumbled upon this whole buying and selling companies so politely.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Street my entire career, which is now more than 40 years, and I got an MBA and I went to Wall Street not really knowing what it was and what it was about and what investment bankers did, and I sort of didn't understand what the business was.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And over time you come to learn about it and I wound up developing a specialty in consumer, particularly companies with high merchandising content, one of the things that I've learned.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>When I started, I said to myself if I could ever understand the numbers, I could be a good banker.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And then time passes and you sit at your desk one day and you realize I do understand the numbers now and what I realize is this isn't really about the numbers, it's about the people.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And you spend the rest of your life trying to understand the people.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And I say that because when you buy and sell a company and most of our business at Triangle Capital is representing sellers in the sale of control of their company and in having liquidity events, that is to say, where they turn their illiquid business into capital Most of our sales, then, are doing transactions that, for our clients, are the most important transactions they've ever done.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And what you're doing when you do that, if you're us is, of course, it's about the numbers and getting the highest value, but the way in which you do that is trying to understand what's the motivation of the people at the table.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Of course, our clients, but, more challengingly, the people on the other side of the table.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>What you're trying to figure out is what's their motivation.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And, of course, yes, that's always about the money, but there's always another part to it.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>There's always something that makes them want it more than someone else.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And if you run the process right out of the bottom of the funnel come the people that value the company you're selling most highly.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And if you understand why they want it, you can understand how much you can get them to pay.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And so you play them off against each other, and that's how you maximize value.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And that's the me who began in this business would be surprised to hear that, because he would have thought this is all about spreadsheets and numbers and the answers are always in the spreadsheets.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, you got to understand the spreadsheets, but there's a lot more to it than that.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Before your MBA, though, what did you do?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Did you go straight into business school?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Yeah, what did I do?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I was a child.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So you were one of the advanced people who went straight from undergrad directly to MBA.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I went from undergrad to get my MBA, yeah.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Okay, you're a clever person.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Look at you.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I don't know, Maybe the people giving out MBAs weren't so clever.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>But here I am.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Well, look at you learning how to beat a system early.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So I want to understand something.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So do you think, coming from Wall Street, you are unique in the sense of understanding this whole retail anthropological mindset, of understanding the how and the why we shop in terms of you know?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>This almost makes you an outlier of saying, OK, I don't want to do what everybody else is doing.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I think I can do this on my own.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>How did that all come to pass?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, I'm not a merchant, I'm a banker and my outlook on the world is as a banker, and we look at everything through the numbers.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>But one of the things we understand is that the reality is not the numbers.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>The reality is what the numbers represent, and that's not something that I find on Wall Street people typically express.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>You think it's tempting to believe that you can control the world through a spreadsheet, but you can't.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>The spreadsheet reflects the world, not the other way around.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So I never set out to be a merchant and I'm not a merchant, I'm a banker.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>But we've spent so much time, my partner and I, with merchandising companies that we've come to learn a lot from the CEOs we talk to every day about their businesses and what drives them and what makes them unique.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>They're incredibly creative businesses, and creative businesses are more dependent on specific individual people than most other businesses, and that makes structuring them different than if you were selling a bull bearing company, for example.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So creative businesses have different points of value and they are more volatile in their performance and they are more, as I was saying, dependent on an individual or a small group of people, and that makes doing transactions for them different than doing transactions for other businesses, and that's one of the reasons we have a specialty in doing what we do.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Do you think, though, that Richard of today, who has had this company for the better part of 20 years, at least talking to the deals you did so long ago, what do you think has changed in terms of the structure of how products are being sold and how companies are being sold?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Was it?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Do you believe that back then and to that point, you know one of the lessons I teach in my class is this outdated concept?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Is this outdated concept, in theory, of doing a business plan right Right now?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>The market, the life, the world is so volatile there's only so much you can control.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So do you think now you're analyzing more about the people with the product they've developed, less so than before because of what's going on in the market?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Or you think, next, think nothing's changed?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>No, the world's changed very dramatically.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One thing that hasn't changed is what do investors and buyers want?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>They want profits and growth, and they don't want one or the other, and they don't want to trade them off.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>They want them both.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And the extent to which you do trade them off, them both and the extent to the extent to which you do trade them off, that's a ding on the value of a company.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>But what's changed is how you get there, because what's changed is what consumers want.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>When I started in this business, consumers wanted the highest ingredients and the highest status, and retail and consumer was about status.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That is out the window, unless you're a super euro luxury brand.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That's not what consumers are looking for.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>What consumers are looking for now is values, personal values, things like sustainability, transparency, how you treat people, transparency, absolutely local production, what does your product do to the environment all those things that are trending in consumer values now, and those are the things that produce the earnings and growth that investors want.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So it doesn't mean that if you have all those things, you'll make a lot of money, but it does mean that without them you can't.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One of the surprising things is that being big used to be a barrier to entry in consumer.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>It isn't anymore, because those legacy brands find it super challenging to graft those personal values onto the way that they've been presenting themselves for decades, and so that's given an open, it's created an open door for new brands whose personal values are foundational to gain a foothold in the market and grow and be successful.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That's interesting for us because young brands that are growing need to be sold.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>There's this constant creation of new brands in consumer that makes our business a business, which is to say there are always new brands being created and finding places, white spaces in the market where they can grow.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That will ultimately need to be sold, and that's why we have a business Right that will ultimately need to be sold and that's why we have a business, Right?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Do you think?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>And it's so interesting you say that the movie Unzipped with Isaac Mizrahi and I used to show that to my students 800 years ago Right, and it was when he was at the pinnacle, the peak of his brand, his business, his notoriety.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>And Terry Agans, who used to be the head fashion writer for the Wall Street Journal, wrote this book called the End of Fashion, and she speaks to all of that.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>She's got a couple really interesting case studies in there, Like when Donna Karan tried to sell her company to LVMH and she put on this runway show with candles and beautiful stuff that you know, scents and all the things to imbue excitement and the finance.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>People were like just show us your books, Let us see what you're doing.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Why is your brand being sold in 10 different thousand places?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>You know, we to the ground, and it was very klitzva of him to say otherwise and that led to the downfall of his company, at least at that time, when you're evaluating companies and obviously it comes down to what you said, but in terms of evaluating the person running the company, delusions of grandeur, I call it.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Basement to Beyonce, that's what I call it, because they go from nobody to somebody and then all of a sudden, everything they do they think is worth so much more.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>How do you deal with them?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Because younger companies tend to typically carry that kind of I don't think it's unique, but they tend to kind of carry this notion of like I'm splitting an atom here and that's what my value is.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So in creative businesses, what you find is there's a need for balance between artistry and commercial performance, because so many of the products that you sell a lot of, and perhaps that become your hero product, don't excite the founder in terms of their vision of what their brand should be.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One of the reasons I believe you see so many startups that don't wind up getting a lot of traction in creative businesses is because they won't do things that are commercial, and consumers want what consumers want.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>You don't tell them, they tell you, and so you have to strike a balance between because if you go too far on the commercial side, you destroy your brand because you flood the pipeline with just stuff that you can sell at a moment in time and then, when that moment is over, nobody wants it anymore because it's not interesting.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So you need to have a certain amount of window dressing and you need to have a certain amount of truly creative product.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One of the issues with truly creative product is not everybody can wear or carry truly creative product.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One of the issues with truly creative product is not everybody can wear or carry truly creative product, and those that can can't do it all the time.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So you need to have products that are commercial too, and how do you balance that?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>The answer for that is different with every brand.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>The way we tell the difference is based on the numbers.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>If you ever wanted to start a handbag brand and didn't know where to start, this is for you.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>If you have a handbag brand and need strategy and direction, this is for you.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I'm Emily Blumenthal, handbag designer expert and handbag fairy godmother, and this is the Handbag Designer 101 Masterclass.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Over the next 10 classes, I will break down everything you need to know to make, manufacture and market a handbag brand.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>For the past 20 years, I've been teaching at the top fashion universities in New York City, wrote the Handbag Designer Bible, founded the Handbag Awards and created the only Handbag Designer podcast.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Join me, emily Blumenthal, in the Handbag Designer 101 Masterclass, so be sure to sign up at emilyblumenthalcom slash masterclass and type in the code PODCAST to get 10% off your masterclass today.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>You got to look deeply into the numbers to see what's selling.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Why is it selling?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>How steady is it and what does that mean about where the business is going?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>When you sell a company, what reinvent?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>It's something you need to do more of in order to double, triple or quadruple or more the value of a business over time, and when people believe that is when they will perceive the highest value in the business.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So, as I was saying before, that's about people.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>How do you get people to believe that this business is going where consumers are going?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Because you can't change what consumers are going to do, but you can go in the flow of it, and when you do, you can make a lot of money.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So what is the balance of artistry and commercialism that you have to strike in order to be in that flow?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Brands that demonstrate that they have the right balance are worth a lot, because their history is a history of growth in profits and revenue, and when they do that, they typically have high margins One of the things that's interesting about what's changed over time.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>To come back to your earlier question, when brands do that what you see is they spend a lot less than other brands on marketing and customer acquisition.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Cost has become insane.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>The poison of brands.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>So you know, there's an article that just came out about DTC businesses being so much more expensive to run now versus having a stronger balance to make sure your bags are your bags.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Excuse me, and that's the only thing I can speak of.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Your product is sold at retail so how is it that there are brands that can have low marketing costs and high growth and profits?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And the answer is they have found a way to convey their values to consumers who appreciate those values and are willing to pay high price and who wind up telling their friends in person and on social media.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And so every dollar the brand spends on marketing gets turbocharged by consumers who share what the brand is doing and who identify with the brand because of the personal values.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That doesn't mean that the product itself can be second rate it can't.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>It means that there's an additional criteria of having a first rate product and values in the brand that consumers identify with, and when you do that, you are likeliest to be able to have a lower marketing cost because consumers will do some of the work for you.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One of the things we also find is that successful brands have a unique way to reach their consumers.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Yeah, it doesn't always present itself as community, but consumers wind up doing some of their work and that makes a huge difference in the ultimate profitability of the company.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>You know, the first brand that comes to mind is, for that matter, is Atelfar, for example.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I mean, I knew him.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>He's been around for a long, long time and I think not as many people are aware.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>You know, it's like when I would tell my students that Kate Spade was a human.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>You know people didn't know.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Or, like Liz Claiborne God forbid that's going way back to the archives was a human, but his ability to capitalize on his consumer I mean, I personally don't know him anymore.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I've met him, like I said, years and years ago but his ability to tap into community, how he sells and you know, truth be told, his bags are not leather, they're very simply made.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>The labor on them is not high, but he's able, purely as a result of his strong understanding of who his customer is, that he can, he's got the ability.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>He came up with this very unique way that making it open market, to determine how much to charge for his back for a short period of time and then boom, he's in control.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>I find that fascinating.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So the challenge is finding your own unique way, because when you copy someone else's way, they say we already have that, why do we need to?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Yeah.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So when people come to my office and use the expression we're the next fill in the blank, well, we don't need another one, right so?

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And when I hear them tell me we are the Uber of handbags, well, yeah, absolutely.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Do we need an Uber of handbags?

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<v Emily Blumenthal>Be your own thing.

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<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Yeah, and when you, if you can create your own identity, that's what's going to give you ultimate value, if it's resonant with consumers.

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<v Emily Blumenthal>It's so interesting you know like and again speaking purely of handbags how a way the luggage brand was so innovative at that time when they came out the first hard case pop of color having the chargers, and then within it felt like a blink.

00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:32.834
<v Emily Blumenthal>Tons of hard case companies came out and then there was some drama that went on inside between the female founders, which was so unfortunate.

00:20:32.834 --> 00:20:34.718
<v Emily Blumenthal>That really made me so sad.

00:20:34.718 --> 00:20:45.704
<v Emily Blumenthal>Again, I didn't have anything to do with the company, but just to see how all the stuff that came out, especially from a female founder perspective, nobody needs any more negative press, especially within that space.

00:20:45.704 --> 00:21:06.584
<v Emily Blumenthal>Is there anybody that you know in your professional opinion that has impressed you?

00:21:06.584 --> 00:21:08.230
<v Emily Blumenthal>Not perhaps for an acquisition, but you think like, oh, I see something unique within that space.

00:21:08.071 --> 00:21:08.147
<v Emily Blumenthal>If you don't want to say that's.

00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:09.592
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>OK, but I would love to hear you know you raised a way.

00:21:09.592 --> 00:21:10.656
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Let's talk about them.

00:21:10.656 --> 00:21:19.887
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I think one of the challenges there is are you sure that you're creating a brand or are you creating a product?

00:21:19.887 --> 00:21:25.619
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>A product can only endure as long as the product is needed and no one else has it.

00:21:25.619 --> 00:21:31.858
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>When people copy it, then it's not as important or impactful or profitable.

00:21:31.858 --> 00:21:36.593
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>When you create a brand, that's a different story.

00:21:37.294 --> 00:21:43.664
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>One of the things that I heard about away all the time in their early days was customer service.

00:21:43.664 --> 00:21:49.829
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Customer service is part of customer experience and that is so important.

00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:58.464
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So what you're thinking about here in creating your unique position is what is my relationship with my consumer?

00:21:58.464 --> 00:22:14.616
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And that's kind of a new concept because social media and the way media works generally has allowed us to have many people who can relate one to many and brands can do that now, and so when you relate to one to many, you can create a relationship.

00:22:14.616 --> 00:22:38.742
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Away did a fantastic job in its early days at creating a really important and continuous relationship because the product was unique and because of customer service, and when people find out things about your culture that isn't consistent with that, that's really a conflict for them in continuing to associate with the brand.

00:22:38.742 --> 00:22:41.578
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I saw a bumper sticker on a Tesla.

00:22:41.578 --> 00:22:44.759
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>It said I bought this before I knew he was crazy.

00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:52.123
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, you know, that's really interesting because it was very cool to own the car.

00:22:53.451 --> 00:23:00.903
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>But, when you learn more about his personal value systems and you don't associate with them, the brand is less attractive.

00:23:01.265 --> 00:23:01.464
<v Emily Blumenthal>Yep.

00:23:02.172 --> 00:23:13.424
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So it's personal and that also relates to some of the things that some of your listeners might be considering, which is when to put your own name on the brand.

00:23:13.970 --> 00:23:16.519
<v Emily Blumenthal>I talk about that all the time.

00:23:17.290 --> 00:23:41.042
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So you know who you want to be is the question and relating to our business, when you sell it, you're selling your name, that's it, and you have to be okay that someone else is going to own it and that they can do whatever they want with the thing that they own, and that includes the worst thing in the world taking it to Walmart.

00:23:41.483 --> 00:23:44.378
<v Emily Blumenthal>Yeah, I mean Monica Bakir struggles with that.

00:23:44.378 --> 00:23:55.180
<v Emily Blumenthal>She came and spoke to my students and she said, like it still breaks her heart that you know what they did to her brand and she says, you know, unapologetically, it's garbage.

00:23:55.180 --> 00:23:56.201
<v Emily Blumenthal>Now it kills me.

00:23:56.201 --> 00:24:02.038
<v Emily Blumenthal>So to see something like that that you built with your name on it, I always say, like, think about it.

00:24:02.038 --> 00:24:03.830
<v Emily Blumenthal>Like a Kickstarter, you can't fix.

00:24:03.830 --> 00:24:10.201
<v Emily Blumenthal>You know, like Kickstarter, you can only get the money if you raise exactly a number.

00:24:10.201 --> 00:24:14.535
<v Emily Blumenthal>If not, it is there in perpetuity that you weren't able to do it.

00:24:14.535 --> 00:24:17.420
<v Emily Blumenthal>So think twice about that.

00:24:17.881 --> 00:24:20.144
<v Emily Blumenthal>I want to finish with one more question.

00:24:20.144 --> 00:24:37.540
<v Emily Blumenthal>There has been a high trend, which I'm sure you're aware of, of clever people, marketing people, so forth, who set out to create brands that fill a space, as opposed to designers who are creating a product.

00:24:37.540 --> 00:25:03.791
<v Emily Blumenthal>Do you have an opinion about that, at least speaking within handbags, because it's been an interesting trend and I've spoken to a lot of designers about this who've been, you know, frustrated and saying, hey, they came in and you know they found a hole in the market and they created something, but they're not designers, they don't understand and, you know, being somebody who's right, left brain and kind of did a little of both, not to the extent of what they've been capable of.

00:25:03.791 --> 00:25:19.333
<v Emily Blumenthal>I'm curious to hear what you have to say in terms of how long that longevity can go, because the ability to constantly reinvent yourself is very difficult for a marketing person not so much a design person who'd have the foresight to do it, but I'd feel like you know.

00:25:19.333 --> 00:25:21.458
<v Emily Blumenthal>It's definitely something interesting to hear.

00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:29.631
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>There's a place in the market for both those things, because you know what are you creating, what does the product stand for?

00:25:29.631 --> 00:25:37.744
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>A brand that has a niche, that's consistently performing in the niche and the niche will continue has a place in the market.

00:25:37.744 --> 00:25:50.583
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>A designer can do all kinds of things, but they need to be consistent, and you know they can't have things happen in their personal life that are inconsistent with how they present the brand.

00:25:50.583 --> 00:25:59.589
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I think one of the questions that that also relates to is what is your name or brand targeting?

00:25:59.589 --> 00:26:08.805
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Are you a handbag or are you a brand that can be a lifestyle, whether you're a designer or not?

00:26:08.805 --> 00:26:15.715
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So Ralph Lauren made ties and that's how he started, and now he's who he is.

00:26:16.037 --> 00:26:18.506
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That's how he started and now he's who he is.

00:26:18.506 --> 00:26:25.554
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>A lot of brands find it really challenging to break out of the place they started.

00:26:25.554 --> 00:26:28.219
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Ralph did that a long time ago and he created a new way of doing it.

00:26:28.219 --> 00:26:30.222
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Can anybody do that again?

00:26:33.930 --> 00:26:34.991
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Investors often ask me will anything be big again?

00:26:34.991 --> 00:26:39.782
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>You create something that can be many billions from where it is.

00:26:39.782 --> 00:27:26.951
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>It's not reasonable to say, well, they did it in the past, so they can do it in the future, because that may have been a moment in time communications world where people want their own thing, that are relatively small audiences and people use the expression sliver brands that are no longer lifestyle, but they fit in a certain channel, to a certain marketplace and investors show me or investors have shown me how, when they identify their super fan and they target only their super fan, they get a much higher return on ad spend and they are much more effective with their marketing and much more profitable.

00:27:26.951 --> 00:27:39.040
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So are sliver brands the future, or can you invent a brand or designer approach that will be as broad as some of the big brands we've seen in the past?

00:27:39.040 --> 00:27:40.343
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>We don't know yet.

00:27:41.230 --> 00:27:48.597
<v Emily Blumenthal>I mean that just goes down to that 80-20 ratio, that 80% of your business comes from 20% of your customers.

00:27:48.597 --> 00:27:53.654
<v Emily Blumenthal>So protect and foster those 20% Like they're your Jesus.

00:27:53.654 --> 00:27:54.939
<v Emily Blumenthal>That's going to go out of style.

00:27:54.939 --> 00:28:02.605
<v Emily Blumenthal>I always say, like as much information as you can know about them to celebrate them for supporting your brand.

00:28:02.605 --> 00:28:05.313
<v Emily Blumenthal>It will go much further than trying to find new people.

00:28:06.214 --> 00:28:14.096
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>But I think the question is also if I sell them a handbag, can I also sell them a jacket, shoes and a dress?

00:28:14.096 --> 00:28:26.963
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And what do I need to do when I make my first handbag to make consumers understand that I expect to sell them footwear, a jacket and a dress?

00:28:26.963 --> 00:28:31.272
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And how do I need to present myself if I am going to use my name?

00:28:31.272 --> 00:28:39.644
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>What should my jacket, dress and shoes do that I wear myself personally when I make my first handbag?

00:28:39.644 --> 00:28:43.820
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>I don't know the answer to that, but I think that's an important question.

00:28:44.511 --> 00:28:50.601
<v Emily Blumenthal>I don't know, man, you sound like an oracle to me, so I'm sure you do have the answers and you're just not telling us.

00:28:50.601 --> 00:28:52.897
<v Emily Blumenthal>So I think we might have to save this.

00:28:52.950 --> 00:28:54.817
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, I'm glad I left you with that impression.

00:28:54.930 --> 00:28:57.459
<v Emily Blumenthal>I mean, yeah, that's a dangling participle.

00:28:57.459 --> 00:29:04.093
<v Emily Blumenthal>That's what I feel like a dangling participle right now.

00:29:04.093 --> 00:29:04.934
<v Emily Blumenthal>Richard, it has been an absolute pleasure.

00:29:04.934 --> 00:29:05.856
<v Emily Blumenthal>How can people find more?

00:29:05.856 --> 00:29:10.107
<v Emily Blumenthal>You have this amazing, phenomenal thing.

00:29:10.107 --> 00:29:15.701
<v Emily Blumenthal>You seem to write frequently because you are you are a rock star on LinkedIn, so share away.

00:29:16.061 --> 00:29:28.540
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, I write for Forbes and I share those articles, and the question I'm trying to answer when I write is what do we see in the world right now that helps us understand what the world will look like in a year or two or five?

00:29:28.540 --> 00:29:34.241
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>That's what interests me, and I think it's all the things we use to give the companies we sell more value.

00:29:34.241 --> 00:29:36.257
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>So I'm easy to find.

00:29:36.257 --> 00:29:38.076
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Our company is Triangle Capital.

00:29:38.076 --> 00:29:41.935
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Our website is TriangleCapitalLLCcom.

00:29:41.935 --> 00:29:47.853
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>If you Google my name, richard Kestenbaum, you'll find my articles on Forbes and you can click through.

00:29:47.853 --> 00:29:53.352
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>And, of course, I'm on LinkedIn and love to hear from any of your listeners anytime.

00:29:53.893 --> 00:29:54.614
<v Emily Blumenthal>Thank you, richard.

00:29:54.614 --> 00:30:00.001
<v Emily Blumenthal>By the way, if you Google me, there are other people with my name, but I'm still at the top, so I try to keep it that way.

00:30:00.303 --> 00:30:02.144
<v Richard Kestenbaurm>Well, you'll always be at the top for me.

00:30:03.930 --> 00:30:05.073
<v Emily Blumenthal>Thank you so much.

00:30:05.073 --> 00:30:08.481
<v Emily Blumenthal>Thanks for listening.

00:30:08.481 --> 00:30:13.833
<v Emily Blumenthal>Don't forget to rate and review, and follow us on every single platform at Handbag Designer.

00:30:13.833 --> 00:30:14.733
<v Emily Blumenthal>Thanks so much.

00:30:14.733 --> 00:30:15.736
<v Emily Blumenthal>See you next time.