Ep. 363 - New targets at AACR, biopharma deals, Kurma fund

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<v Jeff Cranmer>2026 AACR conference has wrapped in San Diego.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>We here at BioCentury have found 175 new oncology targets.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Pan-RAS inhibitor ADCs were in the spotlight at the conference.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>We'll have Lauren Martz on to tell you what she has found digging through the thousands of abstracts out of this year's event.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Kurma Partners has a new biotech fund, what does the European VC's experience building this vehicle this time around say about early stage venture fundraising right now.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Plus we'll have the latest in BioCentury's Emerging Company Profile series.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I'm Jeff Cranmer, Executive Editor here at BioCentury, and joining me to discuss all of this, our Editor in Chief, Simone Fishburn, Lauren Martz, Executive Director of Biopharma Intelligence and Stephen Hansen, BioCentury's man in the U.K. Okay.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Speaking of Europe, we are days away from BioCentury 26th, Bio€quity Europe investor and CEO Conference.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>The event kicks off May 4th in Prague.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Limited seats remain.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>So register now and you'll get to meet Stephen and Simone in person along with our Washington Editor Steve Usdin, who will be in conversation with Richard Pazdur formerly of FDA, long time FDA leader.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And we'll also have our buddy Josh Berlin, our man behind the BioCentury conference curtain.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Following that meeting, we're very excited to be bringing our BioCentury Grand Rounds meeting to Seattle, that will be in June.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I am currently recruiting early stage companies to take the stage and tell their stories in front of our audience of academic researchers, venture capitalists, and early stage biotechs.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>We'll be discussing bottlenecks in translation, how to solve them.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>register for the event.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>If you want to get up on stage and tell your story as a presenting company.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Reach out to me now via LinkedIn, or you can find me here at BioCentury.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Okay, The American Association for Cancer Research, AACR has just wrapped its annual meeting down in San Diego.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Lauren as ever has spent quite a bit of time diving into the sea of new oncology targets.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Lauren, what did you find?

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<v Lauren Martz>Thanks, Jeff.

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<v Lauren Martz>I found a lot this year thanks to some new technologies.

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<v Lauren Martz>We found about 175 new targets that are either new to us at BioCentury completely for any indication or targets that we just haven't seen before for cancer and that have no products against them in the, in the clinic or in preclinical development that we've heard about.

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<v Lauren Martz>The big take homes from this big list.

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<v Lauren Martz>I think were first of all that breast cancer and lung cancer continue to be the focus.

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<v Lauren Martz>That's probably not news to anyone.

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<v Lauren Martz>But then when you go down further into the indications that people are trying to find new targets for, there's a lot of activity in ovarian cancer.

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<v Lauren Martz>There's a lot of activity in colorectal cancer prostate cancer.

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<v Lauren Martz>And behind those was brain cancer, glioblastoma was the, the big focus in the brain cancer category.

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<v Lauren Martz>So um I think when you dig into the types of indications that, that these new targets are applying to  there are some interesting bits along the line.

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<v Lauren Martz>There are very few you know, only a handful of new targets for heme cancers, which is probably just based on the nature of this meeting, which is uh a bit more focused on solid tumors.

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<v Lauren Martz>But maybe a bit reflective of the fact that, you know, when you look into all of these targets that are proposed to have immunomodulatory mechanisms, there aren't a lot of sort of T cell function promoting new targets in the mix.

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<v Lauren Martz>And, you know, a lot of the T cell based therapies are for the heme cancers as well.

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<v Lauren Martz>Not a lot of melanoma in, in the mix either, which I thought was interesting.

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<v Lauren Martz>And again, not a lot of checkpoint targets that we're seeing proposed at this conference.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Lauren, I think this is super interesting and I'm sure everyone will wanna know what are the new targets?

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<v Simone Fishburn>I do wanna ask you a couple of questions.

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<v Simone Fishburn>First of all it's AACR, which tends to be a meeting for earlier stage science.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So reasonable to assume that most of these are sort of still preclinical in terms of investigation for these targets.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And the other thing that sort of bigger picture that I wanted to ask you  do you find that they're really bringing new mechanisms into some of these indications that you've talked about?

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<v Simone Fishburn>You know, I know that you're segregating them.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Can you talk a little bit about the mechanistic kind of categorization that you're going for?

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<v Lauren Martz>Sure.

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<v Lauren Martz>So for your first question, these are absolutely preclinical targets.

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<v Lauren Martz>I think BioCentury  is good at keeping track of what's moving into the clinic.

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<v Lauren Martz>These are things that we've never heard of before.

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<v Lauren Martz>So these are sort of at a basic science, maybe translational science level, things that institutions and companies are picking out as a potential new target through different types of screening, and then often validated in animal models.

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<v Lauren Martz>But we're not seeing these in the clinic yet.

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<v Lauren Martz>So this is the earliest stage of new targets that are being proposed.

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<v Lauren Martz>And then mechanistically, we are breaking these targets down by sort of functional categories.

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<v Lauren Martz>And as we know, a lot of, you know, any molecular target has lots of different functions in the body and even, you know, within a tumor setting.

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<v Lauren Martz>So our categorization is heavily based on what is proposed in the abstract, and we've also incorporated some external literature based information on how this works in cancer to  characterize these in the best way possible based on the new information that we have.

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<v Lauren Martz>The categories, there are a lot of broad categories that aren't that surprising.

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<v Lauren Martz>We have transcriptional regulators and modulators of immune function, epigenetic targets, things like that that we follow throughout the years.

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<v Lauren Martz>Some things that I found interesting as potential, maybe not new, but just sort of trends in mechanisms.

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<v Lauren Martz>One is within that immune category, there are quite a few.

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<v Lauren Martz>That are modulating the tumor microenvironment more than I've seen in the past.

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<v Lauren Martz>So these are, maybe targets that specifically are designed to break down the collagen in the tumor microenvironment.

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<v Lauren Martz>So, so checkpoint inhibitors can work what better or things that can sort of repolarize the immune cells in the tumor microenvironment or um different ways of targeting the fibroblasts there.

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<v Lauren Martz>So that was one category that I've seen tick up over the years.

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<v Lauren Martz>I also saw quite a few, targets involved in ferroptosis, so  promoting ferroptosis to kill tumor cells through this iron overload mechanism, which is sort of separate from apoptosis.

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<v Lauren Martz>And um kind of gets around some of those mechanisms that tumors develop to avoid apoptosis.

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<v Lauren Martz>So, not a new idea, but just a cluster of, of um targets that we've seen

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<v Simone Fishburn>This is really interesting, Lauren, and you know, we've been writing back about ferroptosis for a while.

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<v Simone Fishburn>It's really cool to see, I think sometimes these things go in and out and if there's a, a new wave.

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<v Simone Fishburn>So, Lauren on melanoma, which is obviously still a really urgent need, it's not like that's been solved.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Do you think that it's sort of a question that there's a lot of good targets out there and these are working their ways through pipelines, maybe the innovations in modalities, or do you just think the field is still working out new biology there?

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<v Lauren Martz>That's a really good question and I think there is a lot in clinical development for melanoma.

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<v Lauren Martz>We obviously have the PD-1 inhibitors, which that's sort of their main indication, the most successful indication.

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<v Lauren Martz>But then when you think about the programs that are advancing through the clinic, you've got combinations with PD-1 inhibitors.

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<v Lauren Martz>The CTLA-4 next generation class is a big one that really is driving up efficacy.

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<v Lauren Martz>There are the mRNA cancer vaccines.

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<v Lauren Martz>The, a lot of the immune directed mechanisms are seeking those proof of concept indications in melanoma at this time.

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<v Lauren Martz>So it may be that there are a lot of different ways to.

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<v Lauren Martz>double, maybe, you know, improve on that efficacy that we've seen in the last 10 years from the PD-1 inhibitors.

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<v Lauren Martz>So I think that that probably has something to do with it.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Lauren, I, I, I just wanted to ask you a question, because I'm guessing you're not gonna be writing about this in your story, but can you think of, were there any of the new targets that had like, the most fun or cool name?

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<v Stephen Hansen>Because like, I always thought like, you know, hedgehog Humalog, like targets like that, that, that were like, I don't know that they were really fun.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I didn't know if you'd come any across, any new ones that you could

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<v Jeff Cranmer>you're betraying your love of Sonic there, Stephen.

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<v Simone Fishburn>I, I don't see why this wouldn't be the headline of Lauren's story, but yes, go ahead Lauren.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Tell us.

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<v Lauren Martz>Oh, I don't know.

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<v Lauren Martz>Ah, let's see.

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<v Lauren Martz>We have SEAL1 I really um I really like ocean animals, so that's a good one.

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<v Lauren Martz>Um, there were a few, let, let's see, Kindlin-1 always reminds me of um kindling.

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<v Lauren Martz>HORMAD1 one just struck as a strange name.

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<v Lauren Martz>There are, there are a bunch

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Shakespearean there.

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<v Lauren Martz>yeah, so we'll, we'll have um I think we'll have the whole list that comes out in this story so you

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<v Stephen Hansen>may, maybe just a sub paragraph in your story, then could be like your top five, most fun.

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<v Lauren Martz>Sure, I'll do that for you Stephen.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Actually, I feel like we ought to be able to request things.

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<v Simone Fishburn>It's like tell the world of biology when there's like, you know, we, we should have like a, like if you want us to go to Shakespearean, Jeff, like next target's off the list we should all vote in.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And then whoever discovers the next target should be like, you know, Orlando and Hamlin.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I, I totally agree.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>There's all these lists, like top executives, top companies.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I, I really think BioCentury should start a top new target.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Stephen, do you have an all time favorite?

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<v Stephen Hansen>Um, yeah, I mean, like I said, like I just, whatever reason the Hedgehog one really, really spoke to me, really stuck with me.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So um but I, it's not, it's actually not a sonic thing.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I just, I have a, I have, I have a soft spot for the little uh little spiky, you know, animals that, uh, come and steal our cat's food when we put the cat food outside.

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<v Stephen Hansen>So.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>It's rough in the U.K. baby, sounds good.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Well, I wanna turn now to Pan-RAS inhibition.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>It has been producing unprecedented survival gains in pancreatic cancer.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>As well as other RAS mutant tumors.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Toxicity, major constraints still.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Lauren, you um saw a few companies at AACR proposing a solution to this systemic toxicity.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>What did you find?

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<v Lauren Martz>Yes, so I think going into AACR this year.

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<v Lauren Martz>The Revolution Medicine data was just sort of on everyone's mind.

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<v Lauren Martz>So that was what led to this idea to look at the different ways that you could deliver a Pan-RAS inhibitor and to look at the different ways that companies are delivering Pan-RAS inhibitors.

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<v Lauren Martz>Because as you said, the survival data were, were really impressive for the Revolution Medicine program almost doubled the overall survival.

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<v Lauren Martz>But we do hear about relatively high level of skin toxicity and GI toxicity.

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<v Lauren Martz>And so one of the ways to sort of restrict the activity of toxic, or, you know, more toxic therapies to the tumor site is of course an antibody drug conjugate.

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<v Lauren Martz>So you're using an antibody that's conjugated to a payload, usually, you know, it's cytotoxic chemotherapy that's, that's too toxic to deliver without that targeting element.

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<v Lauren Martz>And then targeting it to the tumor cells through the antibody.

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<v Lauren Martz>So we've seen a little bit of expansion of the ADC idea into targeted therapy payloads instead of those general cytotoxics.

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<v Lauren Martz>And this was an example that, that we've seen come up is Pan-RAS inhibitors as the payload.

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<v Lauren Martz>This wasn't a big set of abstracts at AACR, but it was just an interesting idea and seems like a solution to a problem for what could become a really important class of therapies.

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<v Lauren Martz>we found four companies, six different therapies that are delivering a Pan-RAS inhibitor.

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<v Lauren Martz>Some of those are getting into the dual payload idea where you would deliver the RAS inhibitor with a cytotoxic chemotherapy for more efficacy at the tumor and to overcome some of the resistance.

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<v Lauren Martz>Some of those are dual payloads that would potentially help get more to the, Pancreatic cancer or whatever cancer type would potentially respond to a RAS inhibitor.

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<v Lauren Martz>And yeah, I think that's, that's just the general idea.

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<v Lauren Martz>These are in early stages of development.

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<v Lauren Martz>So it'll be interesting to see how these perform in the clinic if they do help overcome that toxicity, because we do know that ADCs still have some toxic issues 'cause you're still delivering something that's, pretty toxic.

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<v Lauren Martz>And it's not perfectly released in the tumor site.

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<v Lauren Martz>Um, especially with the earlier generation linkers.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>All right.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Uh, well, you can read  Lauren's story on BioCentury.com.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I'll drop a link into the show notes.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>She also took a look at dual payload ADCs emerging at the conference, we published that piece last week.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And uh you can also find a link to that in the show notes.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be right back.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>This episode of BioCentury This Week is brought to you by the 3rd BioCentury Grand Rounds in Seattle.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Advancing drug development requires more than discovery.

00:14:30.302 --> 00:14:32.136
<v Jeff Cranmer>It requires the right partners.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>The 3rd edition of BioCentury Grand Rounds U.S. convenes venture capital, biopharma decision-makers, and academic innovators in Seattle, June 3rd to 5th.

00:14:42.581 --> 00:14:56.861
<v Jeff Cranmer>This R&D-focused forum brings together leaders at the forefront of translational science to examine the breakthroughs, bottlenecks and strategies shaping the future of drug and diagnostic development and how to make early-stage R&D investible.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Discover cutting-edge disease, biology, and platform technologies.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Gain insights from emerging biotechs and academic pioneers.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Schedule partnering meetings with VCs, pharma, and leading academics who can accelerate your path forward.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Grand Rounds U.S. is where rigorous science meets strategic capital and where the right conversations move discovery toward development.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Join us in Seattle and discover what's next in biopharma and who's driving it.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Register at BioCenturyGrandRounds.com.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>We are back on the BioCentury this week podcast.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>And what do you say, Stephen, another day, another Eli Lilly deal.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>This time buying Ajax Therapeutics uh taking a gamble there that it's not pronounced like the uh European football side.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>JAK2 developer in the clinic for Myelofibrosis.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Uh, upfront payment is undisclosed biobucks crossing 2 billion.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>It must be fun to be a Lilly BD person these days.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Stephen, what do you say?

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<v Stephen Hansen>Well, from the pronunciation side, I was actually thinking about the Iliad Jeff.

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<v Stephen Hansen>Not

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Oh,

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<v Stephen Hansen>the football club.

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<v Stephen Hansen>But uh

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Greatest,

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<v Stephen Hansen>Are those, is that the same pronunciation that the same pronunciation that IX from the Iliad Simone, do you wanna weigh in?

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<v Stephen Hansen>Do you think it's IX or Ajax?

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<v Stephen Hansen>I

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<v Simone Fishburn>Ajax, all the way.

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<v Simone Fishburn>Ajax all the way.

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<v Simone Fishburn>And as a Brit, I mean, I don't think this is only in the U.K. but isn't there that like bleach, you know?

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<v Simone Fishburn>Shouldn't they be, you know,

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Oh yeah.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>Good, good

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<v Simone Fishburn>Cleaning?

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<v Simone Fishburn>I mean, I feel like now they should pay us 'cause we just advertise their product.

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<v Simone Fishburn>But there you go.

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<v Stephen Hansen>I was reading a kid's version of the Iliad with my son and I was always pronouncing it IX but maybe I'm just, I've just got that wrong.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I bet your son just thinks you're, you're tough.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>I, I was, I was gonna use a French term for that as uh our CEO did on our morning call, which inspired me to uh refer to the legendary uh 1896 French play Ubu Roi, which uh I think was lost on some of my colleagues, who would've preferred that I'd make a reference to the Philadelphia Eagles, but I will not,

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<v Stephen Hansen>anyways?

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<v Jeff Cranmer>at this sensitive moment for Stephen, but uh Ajax.

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<v Stephen Hansen>yes.

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<v Jeff Cranmer>so what I mean, this.

00:17:16.902 --> 00:17:19.304
<v Jeff Cranmer>is like their 12th deal of the year, Stephen.

00:17:19.837 --> 00:17:23.041
<v Stephen Hansen>It's, yeah, it's, Lilly's definitely been on a shopping spree, haven't they?

00:17:23.142 --> 00:17:34.853
<v Stephen Hansen>Um, again, it looks to me that, you know, they've been one of the few pharmas that have been happy to go early and to buy stuff in either early clinical or even preclinical.

00:17:34.853 --> 00:17:39.758
<v Stephen Hansen>I think this  is getting close to entering the clinic, but I don't think they actually have any clinical data yet.

00:17:39.758 --> 00:17:44.997
<v Stephen Hansen>So, so here Ajax has a uh they call a type two confirmation, JAK2 inhibitor.

00:17:44.997 --> 00:17:54.205
<v Stephen Hansen>So the idea being that all of the JAK2s that are already approved for myelofibrosis are type one JAK2 inhibitors.

00:17:54.205 --> 00:17:56.008
<v Stephen Hansen>And so the idea here is that you might be able to get around.

00:17:56.741 --> 00:18:02.181
<v Stephen Hansen>some of the resistance or failed responses to the existing treatments by hitting this other confirmation.

00:18:02.181 --> 00:18:04.450
<v Stephen Hansen>So you know, I think it's good for Lilly.

00:18:04.450 --> 00:18:14.792
<v Stephen Hansen>I mean, they essentially are a ATM now that's just throwing off cash and so they are trying to diversify and bring in, you know, new assets that can build up the pipeline.

00:18:14.792 --> 00:18:17.563
<v Stephen Hansen>And so uh good for them, like you say, it must be nice to have that job.

00:18:18.630 --> 00:18:18.963
<v Jeff Cranmer>Yeah.

00:18:18.997 --> 00:18:21.500
<v Simone Fishburn>have a few things to weigh in here, Stephen.

00:18:21.500 --> 00:18:24.569
<v Simone Fishburn>First of all, yeah, if I had that money, I'd also go early and often.

00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:24.936
<v Simone Fishburn>Right?

00:18:26.171 --> 00:18:26.838
<v Simone Fishburn>There you go.

00:18:26.838 --> 00:18:31.343
<v Simone Fishburn>Now I did wanna ask you something because we, you know, Jeff, you opened this with another Monday.

00:18:32.111 --> 00:18:33.479
<v Simone Fishburn>Another deal by Lilly.

00:18:33.511 --> 00:18:38.016
<v Simone Fishburn>You know, and there's certainly a lot of chatter about the deal and M&A volume.

00:18:38.016 --> 00:18:39.183
<v Simone Fishburn>We've done some of that.

00:18:39.718 --> 00:18:41.220
<v Simone Fishburn>The two or three things here, Stephen.

00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:50.162
<v Simone Fishburn>So you know, there are a lot of people who are like, well, if you had, if the pace carries on, then this will obviously be one of the greatest all time ever for M&A.

00:18:50.828 --> 00:19:03.407
<v Simone Fishburn>But people don't make deals normally sort of, at a specific pace throughout the year, like, I don't know whether it's reasonable to um extrapolate and just to multiply by four, like Q1 deals.

00:19:03.775 --> 00:19:04.509
<v Simone Fishburn>So that's one thing.

00:19:04.509 --> 00:19:15.820
<v Simone Fishburn>I wanted to know what your thoughts are about If there's anything about this pace in this time of year and what expectations are regarding whether it continues, but the other relates to this Lilly emphasis.

00:19:16.087 --> 00:19:20.959
<v Simone Fishburn>I do wonder, you know, how much Lilly is specifically responsible for this, uh, driver.

00:19:20.959 --> 00:19:24.596
<v Simone Fishburn>I don't know if we've got that kind of information yet or analysis yet Stephen?,

00:19:24.695 --> 00:19:25.364
<v Stephen Hansen>Not yet.

00:19:25.364 --> 00:19:30.169
<v Stephen Hansen>I haven't actually gone back to look through, you know, how much of the deals that they've been doing.

00:19:30.169 --> 00:19:34.740
<v Stephen Hansen>I just know that I'm seeing them very frequently uh so far towards the start of this year.

00:19:34.740 --> 00:19:39.278
<v Stephen Hansen>And you know, just with reference to your, to your prior question as well about sort of the pace of deals.

00:19:39.644 --> 00:19:47.786
<v Stephen Hansen>I agree with you that I think it's that you can't really take, a three month, four month window and just say, oh, well, you know, multiply by three or four and that's how much we're gonna have this year.

00:19:47.786 --> 00:19:48.753
<v Stephen Hansen>I don't think it works like that.

00:19:48.753 --> 00:19:51.490
<v Stephen Hansen>There's very, very much an ebb and flow to this.

00:19:52.191 --> 00:20:00.432
<v Stephen Hansen>I do think more generally there's an expectation that M&A will be a consistent theme for the year.

00:20:00.832 --> 00:20:03.535
<v Stephen Hansen>Whether we hit an all time number.

00:20:03.535 --> 00:20:12.344
<v Stephen Hansen>I mean, obviously it depends on what metric you're using, whether you're using number of deals or amount of, you know, money spent on M&A.

00:20:12.911 --> 00:20:19.785
<v Stephen Hansen>If you're doing by amount of money, then you probably will have to have some sort of mega merger to try and tip the scales, you know?

00:20:19.884 --> 00:20:22.320
<v Stephen Hansen>But I don't foresee that happening.

00:20:23.188 --> 00:20:24.088
<v Stephen Hansen>In general.

00:20:24.088 --> 00:20:35.901
<v Stephen Hansen>I, I, I think it will keep up, but  I don't see a reason as to think that this will be some, you know, mega M&A year where people are having to buy stuff for some unforeseen reason.

00:20:36.535 --> 00:20:36.667
<v Simone Fishburn>so.

00:20:36.667 --> 00:20:45.076
<v Simone Fishburn>let me ask you, a different question then from this, You know, this is going to recycle a lot of capital back into the system, I'm assuming, right?

00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:48.079
<v Simone Fishburn>And so, what does that mean?

00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:51.849
<v Simone Fishburn>You know, do you think we'll look back on this year, like where is that capital gonna go?

00:20:51.849 --> 00:20:54.385
<v Simone Fishburn>How are we gonna see the benefits of this?

00:20:54.385 --> 00:20:58.723
<v Simone Fishburn>It feels to me like we went through, okay, so there's a pandemic, boom.

00:20:58.723 --> 00:21:04.363
<v Simone Fishburn>Then we went through a long and brutal, you know uh winter, let's say biotech, winter.

00:21:04.762 --> 00:21:13.137
<v Simone Fishburn>The companies that survived, some of them managed to move things along, and now maybe some of those are reaping the rewards with these you know, exits or sales.

00:21:13.471 --> 00:21:16.240
<v Simone Fishburn>That money is now getting recycled back, I hope.

00:21:16.674 --> 00:21:19.076
<v Simone Fishburn>What, what are your views on what this means going forward?

00:21:19.778 --> 00:21:34.992
<v Stephen Hansen>Well, what, what I think is sort of interesting now, what we're seeing sort of in the last, sort of this year versus maybe what we saw last year is I think there's actually a good mix of both private and public takeouts, which is good for both sides of that ledger then.

00:21:34.992 --> 00:21:35.192
<v Stephen Hansen>Right.

00:21:35.192 --> 00:21:45.002
<v Stephen Hansen>Because most times, you know, if it's just public companies being taken out, oftentimes VCs have already gotten out by, you know, the time they're being taken out, unless for some reason they've held onto a stake.

00:21:45.002 --> 00:21:48.606
<v Stephen Hansen>But usually they're out, within a year or so after a company's public.

00:21:48.606 --> 00:21:51.576
<v Stephen Hansen>And so they're not really seeing any of the benefits.

00:21:51.643 --> 00:21:55.380
<v Stephen Hansen>You know, they saw the benefit of the IPO assuming that the IPO, did okay.

00:21:55.913 --> 00:22:08.727
<v Stephen Hansen>But I think what's nice here is that you're getting quick returns for both VCs and then you're also getting capital flowing back into the public specialist funds, which then will immediately be recycled back into new companies, right?

00:22:08.727 --> 00:22:11.128
<v Stephen Hansen>They'll be looking for new names to invest that capital into.

00:22:11.529 --> 00:22:22.240
<v Stephen Hansen>So I think it's good for both sides, for both the early and the later stage biotechs in that  this you know, helps the VCs get a better track record, get better returns, which then allows 'em to raise their next fund.

00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.545
<v Stephen Hansen>And so it kind of keeps that capital cycle chugging along, I think.

00:22:26.545 --> 00:22:29.381
<v Stephen Hansen>And so that's, that's what I think is quite good about uh kinda what we're seeing right now.

00:22:30.481 --> 00:22:32.750
<v Jeff Cranmer>All right, and a couple of other deals out today.

00:22:32.951 --> 00:22:43.561
<v Jeff Cranmer>the biggest India's Sun Pharmaceuticals is buying Organon a spin out of Merck, for about $12 billion.

00:22:43.828 --> 00:22:47.898
<v Jeff Cranmer>Organon uh obviously a global leader in women's health.

00:22:47.965 --> 00:22:55.073
<v Jeff Cranmer>Company has a broad portfolio of 70 products and it's in about 140 countries.

00:22:55.073 --> 00:22:57.742
<v Jeff Cranmer>It's also a very big biosimilars player.

00:22:58.309 --> 00:23:08.420
<v Jeff Cranmer>This deal according to Sun, makes it a top 25 global pharma, and it also makes it a top 10 global biosimilars company.

00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:15.826
<v Jeff Cranmer>Among other deals we had two companies who are uh actually older than BioCentury.

00:23:15.826 --> 00:23:24.435
<v Jeff Cranmer>No small thing, given that we're now over 30 years old, Ligand buying Xoma couple of royalty plays there.

00:23:24.435 --> 00:23:27.838
<v Jeff Cranmer>It's about a $700 million deal.

00:23:28.306 --> 00:23:52.830
<v Jeff Cranmer>And  BeOne, the company formerly known as BeiGene, is taking an option to a trispecific PD-1, CTLA-4, VEGF-A molecule from Chinese player Huawei that will result if selected in a hundred million dollars exercise and oodles of milestones.

00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:56.334
<v Jeff Cranmer>Alright, Stephen uh you're just back from London.

00:23:56.567 --> 00:23:58.403
<v Jeff Cranmer>I know you were on a panel down there.

00:23:58.702 --> 00:24:00.672
<v Jeff Cranmer>one of the things you were talking about is state of.

00:24:01.173 --> 00:24:03.208
<v Jeff Cranmer>venture fundraising.

00:24:03.474 --> 00:24:12.317
<v Jeff Cranmer>this comes as Kurma which is a very active biotech venture investor, has just raised a new fund.

00:24:12.616 --> 00:24:13.551
<v Jeff Cranmer>What do you think, Stephen?

00:24:14.318 --> 00:24:17.689
<v Stephen Hansen>I want to get the good news all up front, I guess, and be, be very upfront about it.

00:24:17.689 --> 00:24:18.589
<v Stephen Hansen>So this was great.

00:24:18.789 --> 00:24:20.090
<v Stephen Hansen>This was great for Kurma.

00:24:20.258 --> 00:24:22.794
<v Stephen Hansen>This is their fourth fund that they've raised.

00:24:23.060 --> 00:24:25.363
<v Stephen Hansen>Their early stage fund, kind of their flagship fund.

00:24:25.696 --> 00:24:32.703
<v Stephen Hansen>so they announced last week they raised 215 million euros which is about 35% bigger than their prior fund.

00:24:32.770 --> 00:24:39.611
<v Stephen Hansen>So it's great to see them raising a new fund, raising a bigger fund so they can do more company creation, more early stage investments.

00:24:39.845 --> 00:24:47.318
<v Stephen Hansen>Good news for European biotechs,'cause they focus I think about 80% of their capital is, is, you know, targeted at European investments.

00:24:47.586 --> 00:24:51.655
<v Stephen Hansen>But I just thought it was interesting that sort of in the context, so I was chairing a panel.

00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:55.961
<v Stephen Hansen>I was an investment panel at the Anglonordic conference in London last week.

00:24:56.428 --> 00:25:03.701
<v Stephen Hansen>And one of the topics of discussion was about this observation that some of the investors made that there had been this shift towards.

00:25:04.001 --> 00:25:12.309
<v Stephen Hansen>VCs basically shifting towards putting their money into clinical companies and clinical candidates that they don't want to invest in preclinical companies.

00:25:12.777 --> 00:25:20.050
<v Stephen Hansen>And one of the questions raised was, oh, is this a, you know, who's left to invest in early stage companies then if everyone's investing in the clinic?

00:25:20.585 --> 00:25:24.055
<v Stephen Hansen>And so we had this discussion about, what were the drivers of that?

00:25:24.055 --> 00:25:34.065
<v Stephen Hansen>And you know, one of the things that was raised was, LPs, you know, when they're looking at funds, in this sort of a markets, in this market sort of environment, they want to have shorter hold times.

00:25:34.432 --> 00:25:48.046
<v Stephen Hansen>Meaning that you need to have, basically you have to invest in a clinical company because that's closer to where your exit potentially is because you probably need to be in the clinic right now if you're gonna do an IPO and you probably need to have clinical data if you're gonna get acquired by a pharma.

00:25:48.512 --> 00:25:52.616
<v Stephen Hansen>And you know, if you look at our data, our data very much point to M&A.

00:25:53.183 --> 00:26:00.892
<v Stephen Hansen>I think that when I was looking up over the past five years for M&A, just for private biopharmas only about 13% of those deals were preclinical.

00:26:01.058 --> 00:26:03.561
<v Stephen Hansen>So the vast majority are clinical stage or later.

00:26:03.929 --> 00:26:12.938
<v Stephen Hansen>The point they were just making, was that, can be a bit tougher to build a syndicate now, and it's a bit tougher to raise a, an early stage fund because you just have all these dynamics at play.

00:26:13.171 --> 00:26:19.944
<v Stephen Hansen>And the Kurma deal seems to kind of be a, it's a current example of those dynamics and, and how they happen.

00:26:19.944 --> 00:26:27.451
<v Stephen Hansen>So in speaking to the team at Kurma, one of the points they made was, yeah, we were super happy, you know, this is a good size fund for what we want to do.

00:26:27.786 --> 00:26:35.426
<v Stephen Hansen>But what we found during that fundraising process was, this is an easy sell to strategics, to corporates, to specialist funds.

00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:39.263
<v Stephen Hansen>You know, that have a, a solid interest in, in, in the biopharma space.

00:26:39.263 --> 00:26:48.707
<v Stephen Hansen>But it was a hard sell to a generalist institutional investor that are looking to bring as an LP, like, just because there are all these other funds that are doing clinical stuff.

00:26:48.707 --> 00:26:57.082
<v Stephen Hansen>And so even if they were gonna look for exposure and healthcare, there are other places where they thought they could more quickly get a return than in an early stage fund.

00:26:57.082 --> 00:26:59.049
<v Stephen Hansen>So they said that was, that was hard.

00:26:59.384 --> 00:27:03.087
<v Stephen Hansen>And Kurma had targeted, raising 250 million euros.

00:27:03.221 --> 00:27:04.788
<v Stephen Hansen>And so they actually didn't get to their target.

00:27:04.823 --> 00:27:09.661
<v Stephen Hansen>Again, still raised a good size fund, but it wasn't as much as they were, they were hoping for.

00:27:09.661 --> 00:27:18.869
<v Stephen Hansen>So to me it just was sort of like, I guess an example of how the dynamics are kind of playing out in this early stage, you know, fundraising setting.

00:27:19.671 --> 00:27:21.205
<v Jeff Cranmer>Yeah, in interesting stuff.

00:27:21.205 --> 00:27:25.242
<v Jeff Cranmer>Stephen, looking forward to your piece on what Kurma is up to.

00:27:25.542 --> 00:27:27.345
<v Jeff Cranmer>we'll have that out for you this week.

00:27:28.113 --> 00:27:29.580
<v Jeff Cranmer>Emerging company profiles.

00:27:29.580 --> 00:27:43.560
<v Jeff Cranmer>This is a series that we've been running for many, many years now where we take a look at a private recently launched company working in an innovative space the latest installment.

00:27:43.928 --> 00:27:45.596
<v Jeff Cranmer>Stephen who did you pick to write about?

00:27:46.263 --> 00:27:46.530
<v Stephen Hansen>Yeah.

00:27:46.530 --> 00:27:55.440
<v Stephen Hansen>So so my most recent one was about company a Elevara Medicines Limited based here in the U.K. in London, led by CEO Emma Tinsley.

00:27:55.606 --> 00:28:00.211
<v Stephen Hansen>Who I believe will be potentially presenting at one of our Grand Rounds conferences coming up.

00:28:00.545 --> 00:28:06.750
<v Stephen Hansen>And I, yeah, so,  So they are uh they're actually a, you know, kind of fit this new co model.

00:28:06.884 --> 00:28:10.888
<v Stephen Hansen>they in-licensed their program from Teijin Pharma in Japan.

00:28:11.155 --> 00:28:19.564
<v Stephen Hansen>And got a pretty good syndicate Forbion Sofinnova Partners, Monograph Capital, I think, was the founding investor that put in 70 million into a series A round.

00:28:19.596 --> 00:28:24.469
<v Stephen Hansen>And so this is a a target that probably most people will be familiar with, but as a, as a cancer target.

00:28:24.469 --> 00:28:24.501
<v Stephen Hansen>CDK4/6.

00:28:26.171 --> 00:28:32.911
<v Stephen Hansen>Which is used as a cell cycle regulator in breast cancer, but they're actually developing this for rheumatoid arthritis.

00:28:33.178 --> 00:28:34.945
<v Stephen Hansen>And so I found that quite intriguing.

00:28:34.945 --> 00:28:52.630
<v Stephen Hansen>And essentially the um what they found is that  CDK4/6 inhibitors while not only having the effect in cancer, they also are able to basically stop signaling for synovial sites in joints, which are one of the drivers of joint damage in RA.

00:28:52.696 --> 00:28:56.968
<v Stephen Hansen>So it's sort of a non-immune cell mediated mechanism.

00:28:57.335 --> 00:29:07.912
<v Stephen Hansen>Basically they've got a wider therapeutic, they think they have a wider therapeutic window than the marketed CDK4/6 inhibitors used for cancer, which is why they think that they can make it work here.

00:29:08.346 --> 00:29:20.724
<v Stephen Hansen>And so they've basically gonna be running a Phase IIB study to try and test that hypothesis and see if they've got something that can be sort of orthogonal to sort of the TNFs that are sort of the primarily ones used uh in, in RA.

00:29:20.959 --> 00:29:22.760
<v Stephen Hansen>So I think it's an interesting, interesting story.

00:29:23.394 --> 00:29:23.994
<v Jeff Cranmer>All right.

00:29:23.994 --> 00:29:27.598
<v Jeff Cranmer>Thank you for that, Stephen, it's good piece.

00:29:27.598 --> 00:29:31.102
<v Jeff Cranmer>and, and certainly good news for RA patients.

00:29:31.135 --> 00:29:33.872
<v Jeff Cranmer>If this makes it to the finish line.

00:29:34.204 --> 00:29:36.307
<v Jeff Cranmer>Well that's it for our show this week.

00:29:36.641 --> 00:29:37.875
<v Jeff Cranmer>Thank you for tuning in.

00:29:37.875 --> 00:29:44.816
<v Jeff Cranmer>Thank you to Kendall Square Orchestra for making the music for both of BioCentury's podcast.

00:29:44.816 --> 00:29:53.758
<v Jeff Cranmer>We'll have our sister podcast later this week with the CEO of Syncona, Chris Hollowood in conversation with Simone.

00:29:54.025 --> 00:29:58.363
<v Jeff Cranmer>Chris always interested to hear from, especially on the eve of Bio€quity Europe.

00:29:58.596 --> 00:30:04.402
<v Jeff Cranmer>Until next week I'm Jeff Cranmer, host of the BioCentury This Week podcast.

00:30:04.402 --> 00:30:06.304
<v Jeff Cranmer>We'll catch you next week.

00:30:07.704 --> 00:30:13.178
<v Jeff Cranmer>BioCentury would like to thank IQVIA Biotech for supporting the BioCentury This Week podcast.

00:30:13.678 --> 00:30:20.551
<v Jeff Cranmer>To learn more about how IQVIA Biotech’s dedicated teams deliver support from innovation to impact, visit IQVIABiotech.com