Jeff Beer - Fast Company and Editorial Passion for Marketing

 What my former colleague had brought in to combine with that was the audience being a North Star.
 More recently, my colleague Nicole LePort and I wrote a cover story for the most
 innovative companies issue on LeBron James' company, the Spring Hill Company, and how they've
 built this hub of really purpose-driven around the idea of empowerment. To me, that exemplified what
 every branch would be looking for in how they create content or how they should think about
 creating content for their audience. TikTok. The next YouTube or always somewhat niche.
 Oh no, not niche, whatever. Whether it's the next YouTube or not, it's a monster.
 Yeah.
 It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now?
 Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast.
 Hey guys, what's up? It's Ryan Offer. Welcome to the latest edition of the Radcast.
 I got a good one today, folks. You know, being in the industry, marketing, and advertising,
 and business. Right at 20 years, I'm going to age myself, and it's my birthday. 44 years old,
 Jeff Bear. But that's staff editor for Fast Company, a long admired publication and media
 giant. I'm really excited to have Jeff Bear, who is the staff editor with them. What's up, Jeff?
 Hey, Ryan. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. Love it, man. We interview and have a lot of people
 on the show that are in business in general and in marketing and all that. But one of the first
 that I can recall that are so ingrained in the business side and the writing side and the
 understanding of the story side of advertising, marketing, and branding, which I know you write for
 Fast Company. Really enjoyed reading and getting to know some of your stories behind the scenes.
 I'd read a few, not knowing they were yours until I met you, but thanks so much for coming on,
 man. Yeah, no, of course. Thanks. Yeah. Pleasure being here. Let's start right down the path.
 So we have a lot of our audience is pretty diverse in business and marketing and all that.
 But maybe we start by talking a little bit about Fast Company and what you do for them.
 Maybe intermixed with some of your background and what brought you there and your journey to get there.
 Yeah, no, sure. So Fast Company, if for anyone who doesn't know, is just a business magazine that
 sort of sits. I think tradition's been around for like 12 or any five years. I think that was last
 year this February 25th anniversary. It sort of sits in the pocket between hardcore business
 magazines, like affords or a fortune and tech magazines like wired. It's sort of always been in
 that in between space. We definitely skew our audience. We skew younger and more diverse than
 a lot of our business publication competitors. The tag line for us is the future of business,
 which I think points us in a direction of both talking about what large global corporations
 are doing, but also small companies that are pushing the envelope, whether that's in through
 their products or through their how they're affecting culture and society with what they do.
 And yeah, so I mean, when you think about the future, the future of business. So we talk about
 and cover climate change and how business has a massive opportunity there. We talk about racial
 quality and injustice and the role of business because I think we, you know, in a lot of ways we
 talk about business and technology and how in the context of culture in general, right? Like it's
 not it's not in a vacuum. It's not like, oh, how's the stock price? So that's the only thing that
 matters. How's the growth? That's the only thing that matters. This is not those aren't the only
 thing that matter. And so there's a lot of nuance and different aspects that go into it. So for
 me, I cover marketing advertising, which I like because I'm not, I don't have a necessarily
 business background. I like it because marketing advertising for most people, I think, is where
 they meet business, where business meets culture, where a business expresses itself and tells you
 who it is, not just what it makes. And so I find that kind of fascinating. How do we build?
 How do you build? Why are you a Pepsi guy? And I'm a Coke guy. I'm just saying. So
 why is your dad a Ford guy and, you know, you're your father-in-law a Chevy guy? You know, there's
 these like emotional attachments that sometimes it's through a lot of times it's through the quality
 of the product, but a lot of times it's, you know, all things be equal. It's about that connection.
 So I find that fascinating. You have to be a curious creature. You know, you must. Like I
 always think about, you know, the best editors of this writers. I'm like, to uncover some of these
 things and you must have a fascination or a natural born curiosity about you.
 Yeah, I think so. I mean, I certainly, yeah, I've always kind of been a pretty
 racist reader and wanting to know how things work, but like a lot of times I'm, for example,
 like so in journalism, I got my start writing for snowboarding and skateboarding magazines.
 So like I was, and those worlds, this was many years ago, those worlds are brand-centric.
 Like back in the 90s, like I could tell if you were standing in front of me and you were wearing,
 you know, X, Y, and Z shoes hat, I could tell what kind of music you could listen to.
 I could tell I, you know, based on the brands that you were wearing and you know,
 that's true to a certain extent today, but I think that the idea of these weren't team sports,
 these were sports, these were, these were cultures that were very brand-centric and the brands
 came from within those cultures. And I always, as I got old or started to think like, well,
 why did I gravitate towards, you know, vulcom, for example, or vans, or as opposed to, you know,
 what's the one I didn't really like? I can't remember. Anyway, so why was that? And I find that
 curious. And so actually that got me weirdly enough. It was kind of, it wasn't planned,
 but to get into business drills and my wife got it, I'm from Toronto, my wife got into NYU grad
 school and we moved to New York and I ended up talking to the editors at advertising age
 and talking about this background, talking about why I thought brands were interesting and why
 I thought the way brands talk to people was super interesting and really, and how much money,
 sheer money was spent on this and why. And anyway, that, that sort of got me in the door there and
 that was back in 2006. So it was a while ago. And so ever since, I've sort of just been covering,
 I've with a few, with a few detours along the way, but I've been covering marketing, advertising
 pretty consistently since then. How does, you know, I've always been fascinated by
 guys, girls like yourself that cover the industry as long as you have. And, you know, like,
 I've been in the industry like an application of it. Like, where, how much knowledge you have
 to have compiled to date and is the only difference in is that, you know, us guys that are in the
 advertising, or we're just applying it daily, but in a way, you guys are as well. You write about it.
 Do you feel like you could write a book about it that's, that's high level or, or do you feel like,
 if you had to go run a marketing department, you could do it at this point. You know, I always wonder
 like, how it's, how it's application is being absorbed versus like, you know, is it just the topic
 of the day? How did I make sense? Well, I hear you. I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know what,
 I think it depends a lot on the person. I personally don't have no ambition and
 I have no ambition to run my own marketing company. But I do think that
 uh, having a arms length relationship with, I'll say anything, but like, when you're covering
 something and having the perspective of not being in it, like your livelihood depends on the work
 you're doing for your clients, right? Yeah. Mine is about, it reporting what's going on. Part,
 part of my job is to, especially when you're at it, when I was at trade publications, I think trade
 publications, a lot of the goal there is to, you're a mirror. You're a mirror to what's happening
 in the industry. You're basically a law historian. So when someone like you was starting out, you can
 go there and pretty much get a sense of what's going on in your industry and get a historical
 context by sort of going back and seeing how what's been covered. After you've been covering these
 things for a while, you start to see cycles, you start to see, you start to see, let's say trends,
 we start to see approaches that work no matter what the trend actually is, you know, the tool.
 Whatever the tool is, you start to see approaches from brands and stuff that are successful,
 no matter what that platform is. So yeah, I mean, I may not have that vision, but it's, it is
 interesting. I think about it, I think about it though, like in a way of what that relationship is
 because I have had colleagues, like my first editor at Adage, Scott Donaton, it was just named,
 I'm going to screw up his title, but like head of content marketing or head of marketing at Hulu,
 like last week. But he wrote a book back in like 2000, and I want to say five,
 called Madison Invine about the merging of the advertising world and the entertainment world.
 You know, I had another former editor, Jonah Bloom, went on to be a president of
 Kursamon Bond and Partners, I think. Yeah, anyway, like a plenty of,
 plenty of colleagues that have gone on, my editor who hired me at Fast Company, Teros Etsy,
 was at widening Kennedy for years, like afterwards. So like, there have been plenty of
 jumps, but so I do think it, it does provide you with, with kind of like an unofficial,
 you know, master's or PhD in this industry that I can't get. Otherwise, I, but you know,
 I think it depends on the person. I did have an interesting conversation. I was asking one of
 my former colleagues, one of their works where I met them up with them one time and there was a
 guy who had come up traditionally through an agency education, like agency industry career.
 And I was like, well, what's, what's, what's, you know, what's this guy bringing from journalism,
 like from covering this to the actual day to day. And he had an interesting point. He said that, well,
 I, my perspective traditionally had been from like, what's the best for the client? Which is great.
 Like, what's the best from the client? What can I do to help the client? This is, that's,
 that's the main goal. That's the North Star. It's like, he said what my former colleague had brought in
 to combine with that was a, the audience being the North Star. So the consumer, which, I mean,
 this to me right now, this was a number of years ago, but, you know, I hope this is somewhat
 commonplace now. But like that, that was to him as someone who had been, you know, working in
 advertising for a number of years, you know, a fresh perspective to have in the room.
 Couple of things done. It's, you went right down a couple of paths that are, you know,
 I, we tell clients all the time, like, and I tell clients, like, you hire me to understand your
 consumer. You don't hire me to make you happy. And, you know, it's, that is dynamic. And
 ironically, you know, we're doing this right now, the radcast, you know, it is immediate
 entity. Like, it creates content, like, in a way, and a lot of agencies or brands are creating
 media companies, you know, within themselves. And so you've got this fascinating, I think,
 pollination going on with the media itself, and, you know, entities like that. So there's,
 you know, a few things there that are certainly hot and heavy at the forefront of the industry.
 This is my dog. I think he's knocking on my door. We've had, we've had cats on, you know,
 we've had a lot of kids, the kids were on his cat jumped on the, on the thing. What was his name
 Bean? Oh, yeah, we've had many of animals. We welcome all animals on the radcast.
 Intentionally, we were saying, I think you're right about the, you know, brands as media companies,
 that was a very, you know, common sort of phrase, I would say, on the, on the sort of conference
 circuit for a number of years. You know, what it really comes down to is, and a lot of brands will
 say they want you to be their eyes and ears for what consumers and what people want. But it really
 comes down to, you know, you can tell by some of the work that there's a difference between the
 clients and the brands that say it and the brands that mean it. And sometimes they all, they say
 they want you to be that person, but they actually do want you to be the person who makes them happy.
 And sometimes that's clear in the work. And I mean, I've got plenty of conversations with
 agency folks where they're like, you know, talk about difficult clients that, you know, it's all,
 it's all good and ambitious and optimistic at the beginning of a relationship. But sometimes when,
 I mean, obviously, they're under their own pressures, but, you know, it's tough for,
 for brands sometimes to navigate that because ultimately, I think many are wary, either an
 individual, whether it's a CMO or just collectively, of risk, of trying things. And that can be,
 having that lack of control can be, yeah, discombobulating for a lot of people.
 We try to cross that bridge before we even get to it. Our fucking name is radical. You didn't
 hire radical to do what you were always doing. It doesn't always work, Jeff, but we at least try
 to cross the bridge before we even start the battle. Exactly. But let's talk a little bit about
 you, man. I want to talk about some of your favorite stories, you know, that you've written,
 you know, most recently, maybe in, you know, your whole history, but definitely with fast company,
 and things like that. Anything that really stands out to you is, you know, whether, you know,
 most recent or even lifelong, you know, some of your most favorite stories that you've been able to
 tell. Yeah, sure. I, well, I'll say I like, I've written a number of, I've, over the years,
 I've built up a number of different stories, but I do enjoy writing about Patagonia, because I
 think it's a company that, you know, with little exception, really is an example of whether you
 agree with them or not, is a company that sort of puts who it is out there, knows who it is,
 and acts accordingly, both, you know, through, from everything from its supply chain to the,
 the films it makes. And that's how I sort of got into the company with, was through, was actually
 through its film work, because it's obviously covering work and advertising, but, you know, I've written
 a couple features on it with them and talked with the founder, you've gone through an art a few
 times, and just a really fascinating place, the way they've been able to push both themselves,
 and their sort of the apparel industry, and the outdoor industry, when it comes to sustainability,
 and, and, and, frankly, quality of, of content. So that, those are, there's, there's been a
 couple of features there. We had a cover story two years ago with Yvonne Chinard talking him about
 capitalism and Mike, how climate change and business just don't mix, and how, how he sort of
 balances running a business while also trying to improve the planet, and, yeah, just a fascinating
 guy, like 80, something years old. More recently, my colleague and I, my colleague Nicole Laporte,
 and I wrote a cover story for the, most of you may have a company's issue on LeBron James'
 Company, the Spring Hill Company, and how they've built this, like, hub of, of, yeah, like,
 really purpose driven around the idea of empowerment, company, whether that's through the marketing,
 or the films in TV they produce, or the podcasts, or they're, it's a separate entity, obviously,
 because it's a, it's a, and geo to charity, but more than a vote initiative. I mean, just a fascinating
 group of people, I mean, obviously, LeBron and Matt Riccardo are like the, the face, but,
 and the way they run it, I mean, Matt Riccardo is very, and even LeBron, to, to a certain extent,
 are very much in the day to day more than you would think, you know, but the people they have,
 are, are super interesting talented folks, and that was just a great story to, to be able to
 sort of dig into. When you, when you get to work with entities as big as Patagonia, as big as LeBron
 James, and I use the word entity, you were talking about a brand and a person, but LeBron James
 is a brand, yeah, obviously. But how, how much interaction do you end up having when you have
 stories with, you know, with, you know, names and brands like this, you know, directly with them,
 or, and maybe how it is a second part of that, like, how much, maybe follow up after you write
 the story, do you hear, do you ever hear back from them or get comments to, you know, so I'd love to
 hear kind of perspective on both of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, well,
 you know, we'll take the LeBron story, for example, that was, you know, it was a tough way that
 he was in the middle of his, of a, of a, of a COVID MBA season. Yeah, we were writing that. So we
 basically, how that story came about was, or how, how, how, how we put it together was, we basically
 talked to everybody else first, yeah, right? Then we talked to Maverick Carter, who was also
 incredibly busy. And we did get a couple different sessions with them. And, and then we had one
 session with LeBron, one like hour long Zoom call with LeBron for that story. And they're usually
 open for, like, and I've talked to him before. I think it depends on off scene, because I've had
 things that were much smaller than this feature story that they've made LeBron available to talk
 about, like, I think a couple years, a few years ago, it was like his nature of his investment in
 Blaze Pizza, like, as an entrepreneur, I talked to him about that. But that was like off season,
 and it was a little easier. So they, they're, they're, they're definitely available. And the,
 the afterwards, I think sometimes it depends on the story, right? Sometimes you're good things,
 sometimes you don't. I mean, I certainly, they, I mean, this was a most innovative company's
 story. So yeah, it was a shock talk or shock writing or, they're doing it and more importantly,
 trying to show some insight to our readers of how they do what they do. So yeah, no, they were,
 they were very appreciative of that. And, you know, they spread it on their social and all that,
 which was great. But, you know, other times, yeah, you do get,
 you know, we were disappointed to not with this story, but you know, other stories if I've reported
 on what I come to you. I mean, I, my, my coverage sort of mixes between straight reporting on,
 you know, brand X is doing thing Y and here it is. And here's the context around it to
 a little more analysis where someone's doing something and my sort of opinion is, is, is, is in
 there as well. And that's usually when I get, that's usually when I get the emails, but to be, to
 be fair, I do try to, to be as, yeah, I try to be as fair as possible. Like, it's almost like if
 you and I disagreed on a sports team or or a certain layer of on a team like you thought he was
 playing well, I don't think he's playing well, but we don't hate each other at the end of that
 debate. We're, we're just, we're just, we just disagree fundamentally disagree. That's kind of
 how I try to approach, I try to be respectful and fair. And usually they'll be like, you know, I'll
 get emails that are like, yeah, wow, I didn't expect that, but, you know, maybe next time, maybe
 what we do. So, and that's, that's all you know, for I try to, and I, and there was an, I, I did
 do some sports reporting when I was first starting out and one of the pieces of advice, and I think
 this is true across, should be true across all media is this, this guy who he was covering,
 I'm just coming to Blue Jays anyway. And he said, you know, if you criticize a player or coach or
 or or the team, you have to show up the next day, like you have to be, you don't have to like and
 you just have to be there. If someone wants to get in your face and or or or or have a conversation
 about what you said about them, you need to be available. You can't hide behind, you know,
 your, your, you know, your access or up in the press room or whatever. And I think that I'm
 mean, if someone emails me or calls me about anything I write, it's, it's, I'm all ears. I'm more
 than happy to explain my position or whatever, but yeah, it does happen. And yeah, that's cool,
 that's part of it. What's the balance for for you and fast company, you know, being in the
 position that you are in the entity, the respected entity that is fast company of the LeBron James,
 the Patagonia stories versus maybe the lesser known. I mean, I know it's the future of business
 and that sometimes crosses the path of the nobodies versus the somebody's, you know, yet. But is
 there what's the balance of that from a story because look, your media company and, you know,
 big name cell, you know, let's, let's be honest. But at the same time, and I have seen this from
 fast company. So it's a little bit of a leading question because I know you do cover this, but
 I am curious the decision process in the evaluation of of big name story versus context, all of those
 things. What kind of, what, what are maybe some of the variables that we wouldn't know that go into
 those decisions? Yeah, that's a good question. I think that I, you know, that what you said is exactly
 right. I mean, obviously, the magazine is one thing. I'm just going to sort of separate two things.
 The magazine, we have like, I may screw this up. We have six or seven. It's sort of adjusted
 in the last couple of years, but we have six or seven print issues a year. So this is, that is just
 like sort of a, you know, say a tent pole of the brand, you know, that comes out. But the
 the cycle of our coverage and is online, right? So the magazine is a bit different because
 especially now, I believe almost every issue is anchored by a program like most innovative companies,
 most creative people in business, innovation by design, these kinds of these kinds of things,
 which, and this applies to those programs as well. I think our goal is to both report on and
 reflect what the big brands and companies that people know and are interested in, what they want
 to know about those companies and brands. At the same time, want to celebrate and shine a spotlight
 on maybe the smaller players that are doing things that bigger players and everyone else can,
 maybe learn from. So, you know, I'm trying to think of a specific example in the ad marketing recently.
 I know, I know when it was, when it was smaller, it's obviously a bigger company now, but I've
 been sort of writing about their content for years, but like Yeti, for example, right?
 Cool brand, right? This is, I mean, it's big in the cooler space and it's not Pepsi, right?
 Right. So, five or six, seven years ago, they're creating these really cool little films that,
 you know, it's a cooler. I mean, you could just look at a cooler and be like, how do we market this?
 This is what do we do? But these people are telling, you know, amazingly emotional,
 beautifully filmed stories about, you know, outdoors people like hunters or skiers or, you know,
 all this different cross-etched of the people who would use their product. To me, that
 exemplified what every brand should be looking for in how they create content or how they should
 think about, you know, creating content for their audience. It's not about necessarily,
 you know, the actual thing, though it is, that's obviously a core thing, but it's about who
 they are as a company and as a brand. And, you know, in that case, Yeti was about
 being exploring and being the most you can be outdoors. So, they were telling the most
 compelling, interesting stories of their, you know, sponsored folks or just people they knew
 to illustrate, you know, that possibility. And so, I think, you know, you try to find that
 balance between reporting on the big guys and also using the smaller guys as inspiration for
 everybody else. Yeah, I like that, I think. That makes sense. It makes total sense and it's kind of
 how I think of fast company in general, you know, without even, you know, hearing you reinforce
 certain things, like I think of it as inspiration, you know, and I thought, you know, like about the
 the future of business, that makes sense, but for me, it's maybe the business inspiration. I,
 you know, it's kind of where my mind went when I think about fast company. So, it makes total sense
 and it aligns at least with my own mental image of the brand. So, I don't know. That's good.
 That's good. That's good. What are some of the trends that are sticking out? I mean, you know,
 covering, advertising, marketing, branding, creative, everything that you cover. Are there things
 that are boiling over to the top that are like coming up over and over again that are maybe
 even going past, you know, maybe some of the up and coming stuff or just like just repetitive
 whether it's platforms or messages or things. I know we talked about, you know, brands as media
 companies, you know, a few years ago was like all the rage and whether they've delivered that,
 we can argue that. But I am curious if there's just things that just keep bubbling up that are
 just on your periphery every day. Yeah, I mean, it's hard, you know, there's different, I mean,
 what do you say? You could just say, you know, well, you know, TikTok's been
 and if someone wants to do an NFT that's ridiculous but fine.
 Yeah, but to that end though, I mean, is TikTok just going to be the, it is the raging video platform
 that started teenagers and now you've got adult, you know, it's like, in your mind is, I mean,
 I mean, I mean, like, I meant that like, I think that, um, to me, the, the tools are one thing,
 but the, and then there's the, the approach to, to, to this multimedia world. I think the trend
 overall, it's like, look, you're, you're entire, just like us as people, our entire media budget
 is completely fragmented, right? Yeah, but all these different places where you, uh, should be, I
 guess, uh, but as a brand, as brands go, I think it's interesting to see, I mean, a lot of what it
 is, you're like, you're looking and you're watching, you're seeing how brands are experimenting
 with a lot of these different platforms. I think that's great, but I think what it, a lot of
 times it comes down to the ones who are like most successful, it seems are the ones that like,
 anyway, I sort of touched on this earlier, but when you're talking about a company who sort of knows
 who it is and how it wants to put itself out in the world, and I don't mean this in a cookie cutter
 way, but then you can go out to all the different, then you can find the, the, the best people who are
 the most, uh, uh, uh, literate in each platform, like whether that's TikTok or Discord or Snap or,
 or whatever that like, to, to execute that, but first you need to know like how, what you want
 your voice to be in, in those, in those areas, and I think that like, sometimes you've got brands that
 are, it's almost like a person, right? Like you are on, I imagine you're on LinkedIn and Instagram
 and, and Facebook and Twitter, right? You're still you, but how you behave or how you communicate
 is, is, is a little different on, on, on each platform, and I think that, um, the ones that get
 that, that have that consistency, and I feel like that's a big thing like, brand consistency is
 something that I'm finding, you know, whenever there's a screw up or someone does something
 just completely off, uh, tone deaf or whatever, it's usually not consistent with what they're doing
 elsewhere. It's like, why is this company? I don't know, it just be weird to have to be one voice
 on Instagram and then have a completely different personality on Snapchat or, or TikTok or whatever,
 right? These, uh, these things where, and I think the consistency idea extends to nowadays,
 we could argue whether that's valid or not, but it extends to, you know, the political parties
 a company donates to the, uh, where it shows up in society, like if I'm, if I'm sort of
 blocking voting rights bills in Georgia and then putting a black square on my Instagram to say,
 you know, I support all, you know, you can't, you can't kind of do that anymore. You can't
 sort of do one thing on one hand. You can, I mean, obviously companies do, but I think it's
 unless you're more visible than ever before, so I think that consistency across all the platforms
 and just company behavior, how it treats its employees, there's nowhere, there's not a lot of places
 to hide. And so that sort of consistency of behavior and, and, and, and knowing who you are is,
 is something that we're seeing a lot more of. I have, I totally unscripted, not most of this is
 unscripted, but I have a, you know, I know you cover these things. I want to see if you'll play along
 with me because you cover them. So I know you're probably forming somewhat of an opinion on,
 his platform, right? You know, can I do a speed round of platforms and what seems to be
 overriding perspective and you give, you know, either one or five words or less kind of responses.
 Yeah, you game, are you game? Yes. All right, here we go. I'm going to start with platform and then
 I'm going to give you kind of a yin and yang of what seems to be the prevalence. Clubhouse.
 Fad or rad? You know what? I'm going to say rad fad in the sneak notes because I'll say
 that I'll say that because there's more than five words, but I'll say I'll say I'll say the other
 reason I want to, I think you can handle some contiant text on clubhouse. Okay, this is all I'd
 say. This is all say about clubhouse. I think that it is super interesting, but I think that it could
 be a bridge app to, I mean, you look at just in the short time since it's become sort of a fad
 a rad fad that Twitter comes out with spaces. Right. Discord this week last week came out with stages
 discovery or whatever it's called. Yeah, basically an audio, basically a clubhouse
 challenger. So, so what happens to clubhouse when you have these other platforms that already have
 a scaled user base that is much bigger. And I think that the idea that clubhouse brings or
 that the idea that audio live audio connection is super interesting. And I don't think that
 I don't go away necessarily. I do think it'll be interesting to see what happens to clubhouse
 itself. Now, people said the same thing about SNAP. So, yeah, all bets are off, but I think that
 if to pragmatically, if all these bigger players are recreating your product, you could be in trouble.
 All right. So, it's a gateway drug. It's marijuana and you might do some heroin. I get it. All right.
 Um, not what you said. That was just my interpretation. Um, Facebook
 on the way out or still growing.
 Still evolving. How about that? Evolve on the way out or evolving.
 Um, too big to fail. I'll throw a third one at you. Yeah.
 I think maybe the, the third one, unfortunately, I'm not a fan. Yeah. I think that,
 yeah, it's too, it's so prevalent. It's hard to see. And I don't mean this from a major brand
 perspective. I think you go anywhere. You're in South Carolina. I'm on the East Coast of Canada.
 The amount of small businesses that rely on Facebook as their
 like public window to the world is, is, is, is staggering. So, uh, I do think that I'll say,
 I'll go with the evolved one because I think I'm not from their own volition. I think it's still
 going to be around and it will evolve, but it will evolve because hopefully it will be forced to
 evolve by regulation and because it's not going to evolve on its own in the, in the, in the, in the,
 in the sort of right way. Would you lump because they're owned by them Instagram in with that
 same thing? Or would you hold them a little bit of it outlier at least being just a different
 platform from a business behavior and like sort of data privacy and all that. I would lump
 what's happened Instagram in with them as a consumer product. I think, uh, Instagram's
 much healthier, particularly with the young Ryan, so though I was just reading this morning that,
 you know, Jen's, Jen's, he's disproportionately on TikTok, like TikTok's the thing Instagram
 is much less, less, less popular. But, uh, yeah, I mean, as a, as a, as a product, I think Instagram
 is, is, is, is, is, is cooler, but yeah, but it's all part of the same problem as a company. So,
 yeah, yeah, it's, it's a complicated one. Since you just brought them up, TikTok,
 the next YouTube or always somewhat niche. Oh, no, not niche, whatever. Whether it's the next
 YouTube or not, it's, it's a monster. Yeah. It's a monster. I think, and just now I think it was
 last week, they just introduced, they're introducing shoppable posts. So that'll be really interesting
 to watch. Uh, and there's a super, I don't know, I just think that it's, it's such an interesting
 thing that they, uh, there's a really great story who wrote it. That was in Bloomberg. And, uh, it was,
 oh, she'll, uh, Shelley Banjo at, at, at Bloomberg wrote a story called How TikTok Chooses
 which songs go viral. I recommend to everyone read it. Uh, it's, it's, it's basically tracks, uh,
 Megan the salient, uh, track and how savage sort of became this massive thing. And spoiler alert,
 it wasn't organic. Uh, yeah. Uh, but, but it's fascinating. Just how much, how, how, how vast
 and how tenacious their ground game is in, in, in promotion and, and manipulating the, uh, the,
 the feeds. It's, uh, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy. So, yeah, and, and just the fact that
 everyone from, you know, middle school and up is like obsessed with it. Now, do you, I think
 it'll be a monster. Do you get, do you get into vortex? I called the vortex, the TikTok vortex.
 Do you get stuck in it? Sometimes you get out of the rabbit hole and actually use it that
 often because I know I'm going to, it's going to be like, time is, time's up. You thought it was
 two and it's 27 minutes later. No, exactly, exactly. And that should tell you right there, right?
 Is it, is it, is it, is it niche? Is that niche? No way. No, it's not.
 I, some of these are leading. Hey, and I, uh, what else? Uh, what am I leaving out? Any other good ones?
 What else is hitting your radar? A clubhouse has just been like, at least in my genre of,
 you know, I do a ton of personal branding and everyone that seems to does that. Like,
 and the big brands are coming. You're starting to see more of the transition, but it's,
 you know, every coach and marketing guru and, you know, everything else is kind of all over
 clubhouse or has been the last six months and, you know, but it's just, it's a fascinating
 platform to me. For sure. I would, I would throw discord in there. Yeah, discord and more.
 I think it's, I think what, what makes it really interesting to me is how it's,
 there's no like, there's no feed or likes or the familiar, say, metrics or behavior of other,
 social platforms. Um, and, you know, they don't have advertising, but I think that's,
 that's, that's coming or some, in some form, um, especially with those, the new audio and,
 and video features. They certainly work with brands about like their presence on that platform,
 but, um, I, I, I think, well, for this audience, I think it's also one of the more interesting ones
 because I think it's going to be super, one of the toughest ones for brands to, to, to, to break
 through, uh, or, and use effectively, uh, probably in a lot of the same ways that Reddit was
 challenging, um, because you have this really like the complexity of that, the complexity and the
 sort of, say, passion of the, of the, of the, of the communities there. And, and the, in this sort of
 general, uh, vigilance against BS, you really got to like, I like that. I need to write that down.
 That's much more eloquent that I've been able to come up with, uh, yeah.
 You got a, you got to be there. I mean, I think, I mean, and again, look, I'll, I'll go back to
 something. I, I say, I don't want to talk in all broad strokes, but I think that actually, it
 actually, this, this, this, the idea of discordant and how you show up there is, comes back to just
 that idea of, of, of who your brand is and how you want to show up in the world. And I think you
 can't just jump in to something, whether that's a social app or, uh, social cause, uh, without
 putting in the work or having the ground game first and like having sort of that cultural
 permission to be there. Um, I talked a lot of, uh, CMOs that, that talk about that, like, uh, not
 long ago, I was chatting with, um, someone had been in juries. Yeah. And you know, you have this,
 like, you know, this ice cream brand from like the whitest state in the US, maybe not the lawyers,
 but one of them definitely up there. And, you know, they are, you know, doing things that you
 would not necessarily expect from, from that company. It's ice cream. It's fun. It's, you know,
 but, you know, they're tweeting about, you know, anti-racism, but at the same time, they're not just
 tweeting about anti-racism. I mean, this is a company that, you know, has teamed with organizations.
 There was one recently where they successfully lobbied to, uh,
 shutter, uh, it's like a dilapidated jail in, in, I think it was St. Louis that,
 that had been used to house people who couldn't afford bail. And like, like, they're basically,
 they're, they're doing the, they're sort of partnering with the, with organizations.
 They're doing sort of, like I say, like the grounds, the ground work before they're doing the
 broad media stuff of, like, hey, you know, supporting stuff. Anyway, I think that's, that's, that,
 that also plays into, uh, how you show up on some of these platforms. Like, don't be, uh, don't,
 it can't be superficial completely. You know, that brings up a good one, you know, for me,
 I have a lot of people on. We've talked a lot about purpose marketing,
 purpose branding, the importance of that. And then I've had the other side of that coin
 with other people that are in e-com and kind of the Amazon type base and those kind of things
 that there's an argument brewing, you know, amongst marketers, not in public with general public
 around if yes, you can't be a complete sleazeball brand. Of course not in this today,
 age, like you said, there's so much transparency in all these things. But the argument of the
 importance of having your purpose out there and having all those things and people aren't going
 to buy from you versus convenience and price. And, you know, that's kind of been the pervayance of,
 well, you know, when you're, and certainly I guess have considered the more considered the
 purchases, maybe the more it answers that question, but there's been this prevailing, you know,
 not argument, but you know, I'll have that perspective, you know,
 purpose, you have to have your purpose, you have to talk about your purpose, you have to have it
 out there. And then, but at the end of the day, they're in the line of the shop and sitting
 and they're buying that gum and they're not making sure that, you know, you, you know, are involved
 with BLM or something, you know, like, right, right. What's your perspective on that?
 100%. I hear you. And I think that is a completely valid discussion. I do think that it's not a
 zero sum game. Like, I think that, I think that, again, and I wouldn't even be going back to
 saying you need to have a purpose. I just think you need to know who you are. And if you're,
 if you're not about a social, a certain social issue, and that's not something you want to be
 publicly out there or tied publicly to your marketing or whatever, hey, that's fine. But I think
 your brand can have a purpose of, we want to give people the best damn gum they've ever had.
 We want to have the coolest packaging on that shelf that shows we're into, like, we're creative.
 And like, this is like, there's like one of those things where, and, and maybe that's just me,
 but like, if all things being equal, the convenience and the price, right, which is a lot of things
 are commodified that way, right? Sure. The price is the exact same.
 The company with the funniest, like me growing up, this is my, like, if there was a funny ad,
 something made me laugh, and I remembered it, or there was a, or maybe it is the packaging,
 but there's something that makes someone choose the one next to you over you or vice versa.
 And if it's, if, if the price and the convenience is the same, what,
 what is your deal? Like, what, what are you giving people that, and I think there are so many
 things that are commodified like that, generally speaking, obviously, there's going to be like
 specials and discounts, and you can pull the game, but, and you should. But like,
 when you're in those sort of commodified areas, like, part of this, part of it is,
 like, these are the, who you are, and how you show up, is, is, sometimes, is the only,
 I mean, if we're getting down to brass tax here, is the only thing that separates, you know,
 you from your competitor? Uh, so what is that? And it doesn't have to be, you know,
 yes, it doesn't have to be way up front with climate change or whatever the issue is. It could be,
 you know, if I knew a company treats its employees awesome, or like, you think it like a company
 like Chabani or something like they, you know, or, or, yeah, I don't know, like, things like,
 I mean, for me, a lot of that, those yogurts are priced basically the same. Or,
 yeah, I don't know. I just think that there's, there's so many areas where
 your price and convenience, and we can talk about that all day long, and work really hard to get it
 better. But I think that is, if that's the only thing, I mean, you're basically a private label.
 That's right. If you have a built your brand, then it doesn't mean anything to anyone. And I
 mean, that's what it comes back to is the power of brand. That's true. Uh, and then I have this
 discussion. I'm not saying, you know, what, you know, Gen Zs and millennials are changing everything
 because they're not turning into our parents. They're gonna, they, they care about the purpose
 and all this. And then, you know, I see the progressive commercial that's like, don't become your
 parents. And I'm like, well, are they just going to become the parents? Are they really going to
 be care about it forever? I don't know. Yeah. That's a good question. I don't know what we tackle
 every day, you know, being, you know, consumer driven and working with brands and things like that.
 So it's always a, a fascinating discovery. You know, like, is it the mindset of today or is it
 the mindset for forever? You know? Yeah. No. Hey, if I had the answer, I'd be probably in a better
 tax bracket. Jeff, as we close out here, um, you know, what's, what's the future for Jeff and
 fast company and like, you know, any, uh, passion projects on the horizon or stories or things
 that did you want to mention? What's in the future? I was thinking that I'm like, uh, hopefully
 game employment. Yeah. I, most honestly, I like, look, I just want to like, uh, keep progressing
 and improving as a journalist and a writer, I think that a healthy, uh, imposter syndrome is, is,
 is, is good for, for, for self motivation. Um, you know, I've always been a printed word guy
 and over the last year, we've been sort of experimenting with a video series I do call
 brand hit miss of the week. And so that sort of pushed me out of my comfort zone. And so I'd,
 I'd like to keep, keep improving and pushing it there. Um, I like those. I watched them. I saw
 your, you, some of your most recent ones with Mountain Dew and talking about the merciless hitter.
 I was, I almost called it hotter now, but uh, hitter miss. I do enjoy it too. You're listening.
 You need to check out fast companies, Instagram page, hitter miss. Jeff does a great job with those.
 I actually did enjoy quite a few of those. I didn't know you did those and, and uh,
 my editor, my editor Lewis is the genius. He's, he's, he's always, he's great. Um,
 and then, uh, the only other thing I mentioned is we have, uh, upcoming issue in the fall, but
 we're, I'm working on it right now, uh, a series called brands that matter and looking to
 highlight brands big and small that, that succeed in sort of, uh, setting out like a lot of things
 we were talking about, setting out who they are, whether that's, you know, who they are in their
 values and embodying those through their, their products, policies and, and marketing. So
 that's, that'll be interesting. It's the first year for that. So this, that'll be, that'll be fun to do.
 And yeah, other than that, just, have you picked them all out? Yeah. No.
 Well, I might send you a couple. That means, uh, it's not even self-serving. More just, uh,
 you know, it might be helpful or not, you know, I'd be on your radar. Yeah. Great.
 Um, that's sweet. Well, uh, where can everybody keep up with all things? Jeff beer, fast company,
 et cetera. Oh, keep it easy. Fastcoming.com. And, uh, I'm on Twitter at Jeff C beer.
 Wait, Jeff C beer, you, you're funny on Twitter. I do. I have been, uh, reading some of your,
 your, your stuff and, you know, it's, uh, good, good, come, you, you fit in well with the Twitter
 crowd for sure. You got to, no, and I say that in a good way with the good side of the Twitter
 crowd, the trolls, kind of, the trolls drive me crazy. But, uh, no, uh, talking about the industry
 and perspective and things like that. So have enjoyed hit or miss and, and look, guys,
 if you haven't read fast company, just Google Jeff beer, fast company, you'll see all of his
 stories on advertising, marketing, branding, creativity, everything. It's really great work.
 And we really appreciate you coming on, Jeff. No, I appreciate you having me. Thanks. Thanks
 very much, Ryan. Hey guys, you know where to find us, the radcast.com, all of our content,
 all of the videos, all the highlights from this, you look it up, you find it there, anything
 and everything, Instagram marketing, fast company, you can find all the highlights there. And we're
 at Instagram, the.rad.cast. And you never find me on all the platforms at Ryan Offord. We'll see you
 next time on the radcast.