229 - Learning from 900 fires with Björn Maiworm

Transcript

Why Real Fires Matter; Designing For Firefighters’ Capabilities; From Gut Feeling To Data; What The Questionnaire Captures; Stable Patterns In Outcomes; Smoke Spread Paths And Failures; Fire Spread Is Rare, Speed Is Not; Timber’s Fast Propagation Risk; Batteries, EVs, And Real Risk; Scooters, Social Factors, Common Sense; Rethinking Extinguishers And Behavior; When Firefighting Really Starts;

WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:02.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show. 00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:09.759 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you want to do a good work, you have to do the work and then you have to figure it out if it works or not. 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's how you find out the job has been done well. 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:26.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now as a fire safety engineer, the second part finding out if stuff that we've done worked or has not worked is actually quite difficult and to some extent stressful. 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:39.119 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because when stuff works we don't really know or we rarely find out, and when they don't work it's usually with a big media attention that we do not necessarily want. 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:44.880 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>However, there are fires happening, hundreds of fires happening every day. 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:53.359 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And through those fires we could learn a lot about what was done in a building and did it work or not. 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:59.520 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The only issue is that someone would have to capture those statistics and process that data. 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:06.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And as you may figure out, this is exactly what we're talking about in this podcast episode. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:19.040 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I have invited Björn Maiworm from the Munich Fabricate, who has run an exercise like this for years in Munich and other fire stations across Germany, and it actually still continues. 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:27.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And a year ago, Bjorn published a paper in fire technology where he summarized 900 potentially harming fires in Germany. 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:35.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Today he told me he has 2,000 in his database, and his database is something we will discuss in deep. 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.879 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How is he gathering the statistics from the fires? 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:40.640 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What is he looking for? 00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:45.280 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And most important, what are the lessons from those those fires? 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:49.920 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We will talk about some general problems with uh gathering statistics. 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:55.200 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We'll we'll talk about collective experience on code writing and law and prescriptions. 00:01:55.200 --> 00:02:05.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We'll discuss smoke spread, fire spread, and in the end of the podcast we actually this have a very interesting discussion about time to uh start uh firefighting in a building, which is a very, very interesting discussion. 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:08.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I think it's a very nice one. 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.719 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I had the chance to record this live because Bjorn was visiting Warsaw for a risk conference that I have attended. 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So let's spin the intro and jump into the episode. 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:24.080 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the Firescience Show. 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:27.759 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My name is Wojciech Wegrzynski, and I will be your host. 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:57.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The Firescience Show is into its third year of continued support from its sponsor OFR consultants, who are an independent multi-award-winning fire engineering consultancy with a reputation for delivering innovative safety-driven solutions. 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:10.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>As the UK leading independent fire consultancy, OFR's globally established team have developed a reputation for preeminent fire engineering expertise with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property, and the planet. 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:27.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business by two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business continues to grow at a phenomenal rate with offices across the country in eight locations, from Edinburgh to Bath, and plans for future expansions. 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:35.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you're keen to find out more or join OFR consultants during this exciting period of growth, visit their website at OFRConsultants.com. 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.680 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And now back to the episode. 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:38.639 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody. 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:43.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I am joined today by Björn Maiworm from Munich Phi Department. 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:43.919 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>High level officer. 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.240 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hey Bjorn, uh good to good to have you in Warsaw. 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:46.639 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome. 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:48.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, thank you very much for having me. 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:49.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's uh it's been a long time. 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've seen your talk, I think it was at SFP Copenhagen, I think. 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:53.520 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In Copenhagen, yes, yeah. 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.439 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's when we agreed to do an interview. 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.240 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're a few SFP events later, but I'm glad you found your way to Warsaw. 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.439 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not the greatest weather, so we can at least do a podcast episode. 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:17.600 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I remember back then you've shown a very impressive study studying the statistics of fires from the perspective of firefighters and trying to make sense out of it of how the measures are effective. 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:19.360 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Do I remember correctly? 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:31.519 <v Björn Maiworm>In the end, the idea is well, if you draw a fire safety design of a building, it's a theoretical idea, it's a planning idea, but we don't have any data about the outcome. 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.720 <v Björn Maiworm>We don't know that what you designed actually worked out. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:45.199 <v Björn Maiworm>So the core question is not how did the firewall fighters work, how was the planning or design, something like that, but did the building and its design work out in real life? 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:50.319 <v Björn Maiworm>It's like buying a car, and some fancy engineer told you it's a very safe car. 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:51.839 <v Björn Maiworm>We put this and that in. 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:53.600 <v Björn Maiworm>We said, Well, how was a crash test? 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:54.720 <v Björn Maiworm>We didn't do any crash test. 00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:01.439 <v Björn Maiworm>So this is actually the summary of many crash tests where the people were to introduce a fire test. 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:06.240 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, it's a very rare perspective when I talk with uh firefighter colleagues. 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.120 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a common thing, actually, the the issue with data. 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:12.560 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I had uh Eurostat project people in the podcast. 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:18.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh I'm due to do one with uh FSRI where they revamped the statistics in North America. 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:25.120 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But it's quite challenging to get meaningful engineering related data out of uh fire statistics. 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:26.959 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What was it the trouble for you before? 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:42.800 <v Björn Maiworm>The system the statistics we have from the fire department's perspective is how many fire alarms were there, how many false alarms, how long did it take to go there, maybe if they collected that data, how many hoses did we use, how many engines and trucks? 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:44.000 <v Björn Maiworm>How many little little stuff? 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.920 <v Björn Maiworm>How many so what i if if they even guessed it somehow, but usually they don't have any accurate data. 00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:56.000 <v Björn Maiworm>But in the end, with that data, you can't do anything concerning building safety and building design. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:08.399 <v Björn Maiworm>So we you must connect the systems because from our point of view, as German fire departments, the building regulations and the building design resembles the ability of the fire department's work. 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:09.759 <v Björn Maiworm>So they're interconnected. 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:16.560 <v Björn Maiworm>If you don't have a fire department, having a system with, for example, a second escape route wire ladder is helpless. 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:22.720 <v Björn Maiworm>You can see that, for example, I was in New Zealand, every smaller hotel has an escape ladder on the outside. 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:23.920 <v Björn Maiworm>On the outside. 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:31.279 <v Björn Maiworm>In Germany, it's standardized to have a second escape route via the ladders we bring as fire departments. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.839 <v Björn Maiworm>But that means you need to have a very powerful fire department everywhere. 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:44.160 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, so this resembles in all the metrics we have in our German building law, resemble the abilities of the fire department. 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:52.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wonder to what extent the technical regulations in Germany were driven by the capabilities of our brigade. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I think all safety regulations are written by blood. 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:57.279 <v Björn Maiworm>Yes. 00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:58.240 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And with blood. 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:00.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Due to the experience of loss. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:09.920 <v Björn Maiworm>Middle ages fire, huge city fires, we invented firewalls, non-flammable materials, and all this stuff that's taken for granted now. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:19.279 <v Björn Maiworm>In the time when fire departments developed, like in the late 1890s, 1900s, something, where was the time when the building code was developed. 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:27.839 <v Björn Maiworm>So these two systems interacted, and of course, fire safety or fire offices, high-level offices were part of the regulations group. 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:49.439 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In Poland, it's kind of like as you say, it it had to be there had to be a tragic event or something that uh issued a big revamp in the system, and basically the system would adjust itself to respond to whatever happened, or perhaps there was a broad big event that happened and we just imported some knowledge, that's arguably the better way. 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:56.720 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But um, I'm not sure to what extent they reflect the capability of the fire brigade, you know. 00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:09.360 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If we had an event where we had a big uh spillover of an oil tank in a refinery, Czechovice Jijitse fire, they've implemented a special uh you know industrial fire protection around tanks, etc. 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.120 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It had a lot involved. 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.439 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I you you told me the story of a firehouse. 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:20.720 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe it's worth it to uh repeat it, how firefighters implement influenced the regulations themselves. 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:23.759 <v Björn Maiworm>First, let me call it on your tank fire. 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.519 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, this is a very unique thing from a societal point of view. 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:28.079 <v Björn Maiworm>Yes. 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:32.240 <v Björn Maiworm>So, first of all, in a building regulation, you want to regulate a standard building. 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:33.679 <v Björn Maiworm>What is a standard building? 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.519 <v Björn Maiworm>It's an apartment, it's an apartment building. 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:36.480 <v Björn Maiworm>It's where people live. 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.200 <v Björn Maiworm>This is the majority of buildings we need. 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Then you maybe need an assembly hall, you need a hotel, you need a shopping center. 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:45.919 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is how the regulations are focused on. 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:52.399 <v Björn Maiworm>And in in the end, as we we talked about before, let's talk about the escape route length. 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.799 <v Björn Maiworm>You can do some fancy calculations. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:03.679 <v Björn Maiworm>What's the visibility and the FED model something we heard on the uh conference today, and and and all these aspects. 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:23.200 <v Björn Maiworm>But in the end, from our point of view, in as far as what I could find in any historical document, the 35 meters distance between the very end of an apartment towards the door to the stairwell, and doesn't necessarily have to be the door of the apartment, the maximum travel distance is 35 meters. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:23.519 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:29.279 <v Björn Maiworm>Because in the stairwell you can retreat to the next floor below if there's a huge fire as a firefighter. 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:30.240 <v Björn Maiworm>So you need to enter. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:37.360 <v Björn Maiworm>And every firefighter, Second World War Time and after and up to today, the length is 15 meters for one hose. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:50.320 <v Björn Maiworm>So there are two guys going up there, every one of them has a hose, and you connect your hose there from this door, and then you enter, crawling under the fire, plus a five-meter distance of spraying the water. 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:56.320 <v Björn Maiworm>So the 35 meters in the end resemble the depth of attacking the fire. 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.879 <v Björn Maiworm>And if you did you ever extinguish a fire, or did you do the training? 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:01.600 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, you did. 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.639 <v Björn Maiworm>So you know that a hose is quite heavy to pull. 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.879 <v Björn Maiworm>And if you connect them endlessly, it won't be possible to move. 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:13.919 <v Björn Maiworm>So from a practical point of view, craftsmanship, it makes sense. 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:20.799 <v Björn Maiworm>And then if you have some guy calculating that you can install an early smoke alarm detection system and everyone runs. 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.360 <v Björn Maiworm>It takes you 27 seconds to move 35 meters. 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:28.639 <v Björn Maiworm>Something like that, so we can extend the length towards to 100 meters. 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:36.240 <v Björn Maiworm>No one would ever expect a firefighter to enter a room 100 meters with a house without the possibility of retreat. 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:37.840 <v Björn Maiworm>It's far too dangerous. 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.919 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is what the safety or rescue teams must be taken into consideration. 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:48.879 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Don't quote me on this, dear listeners, but uh I I once was very um intrigued by the concept. 00:10:48.879 --> 00:11:02.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm not sure if you have it in Germany, but if you have a wall that separates rooms in an office building in Poland, let's say you would have an one-hour rated wall, the doors would be 30 minutes, like half the fire resistance of the wall. 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:14.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it was quite funny in Poland because people started installing sliding walls and they were basically just giant doors without any wall component, and suddenly they were like 30 minutes all of them, you know. 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That has obvious business implications, right? 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:24.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I was I was desperate to find where the hell did it come that we do half of fire resistance of the door versus the wall. 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:29.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I found one thing from the 70s, I believe that was in Sweden. 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:40.159 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like I cannot recall the name or any details, but it basically said that on a door opening, it's so much easier to stop the fire than on a firewall. 00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:51.279 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That if you have just half the fire resistance of the wall, you'll be good because a firefighter uh standing like a few meters away from the door with a spray hose and a spray pattern can hold the fire on there. 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:55.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I was like, oh my god, this is like not how we use it today. 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:57.120 <v Björn Maiworm>This may be one aspect. 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:05.279 <v Björn Maiworm>In the end, you could have a practical explanation, like on top of the room it's hotter, and then why don't you impact that long and all this stuff? 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:19.679 <v Björn Maiworm>But in the end, the cop compartmentation of a system, of a unit, and introducing a door allows us to defend as a tactical term, to defend the neighboring rooms and to defend it from spreading. 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.000 <v Björn Maiworm>And it's ensures our safety. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:27.360 <v Björn Maiworm>Because if you can retreat behind a wall, you can attack out of coverage, out of colour. 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:31.759 <v Björn Maiworm>And then we have the same discussion with large office buildings in Germany. 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.360 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, you need 30 minutes of fire resistance and all this stuff. 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.840 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, we do know that it can burn through, but we can defend it. 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:44.960 <v Björn Maiworm>And in the timeline where we actually can do work, it works out. 00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:46.320 <v Björn Maiworm>It makes sense. 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:51.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Of course, from an engineering or scientific point of view, we don't have any proof. 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:56.399 <v Björn Maiworm>It's just a very good gut feeling, a very good engineering judgment, how we call it. 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:58.399 <v Björn Maiworm>But in the end, we must trust that. 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:06.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now that that brought us, that segued us beautifully to the subject of this interview because it's about replacing gut gut feeling with data. 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:20.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And while a fire engineer, you can spend all the time doing your CFD analysis, doing your finite element model analysis of a wall, how well it will behave in a fire, in what kind of fire, in what circumstances. 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:25.200 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the end, life kind of verifies this by a real-world fire experiment. 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:32.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If a fire happens in that place, and this is an opportunity to figure out how it actually worked. 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.159 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, actually, it just started that for decades. 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:42.960 <v Björn Maiworm>It was totally accepted when the fire department's representative said, well, this works and this won't. 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Just by the power of authority? 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:48.480 <v Björn Maiworm>No, no, by the power of summarized experience. 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:48.879 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.399 <v Björn Maiworm>And by trusting in the expert you have there. 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:57.919 <v Björn Maiworm>Not just by his own experience, but by the summarized experience of the organization. 00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.039 <v Björn Maiworm>It's not just me. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:03.120 <v Björn Maiworm>I'm representing German fire departments in a lot of committees. 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.919 <v Björn Maiworm>It's not me talking there, it's a summarized experience and now based on data. 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:20.559 <v Björn Maiworm>And then in the last like 10 to 15 years, more 15 years, we had scientists that said, Well, you don't have any scientific proof for that, so we don't need that requirement. 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:25.840 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is when my boss and I we said, Well, we we need to collect data, we need to collect the knowledge. 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:26.960 <v Björn Maiworm>How do we do that? 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:37.279 <v Björn Maiworm>So we developed a questionnaire for the fire departments, and after a fire, with the allowance of the landlords and with the allowance of the police, we go there and we collect the data. 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:38.639 <v Björn Maiworm>What kind of building is it? 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:42.080 <v Björn Maiworm>Is this a special construction, like a hospital or things like that? 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:50.480 <v Björn Maiworm>And then we go through the safety objectives by law, like people's safety, um firefighter safety, and all these aspects. 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:55.120 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>By design objectives, you mean you go through what was designed in the building? 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.240 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How was it built? 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.279 <v Björn Maiworm>No, what is the general requirement by law? 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:09.840 <v Björn Maiworm>By building it construction products regulation, heritage protection, environmental protection, which are the objectives we have as a fire department by law. 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:24.159 <v Björn Maiworm>Our job is to rescue you, get you out, survive the attack and not lose any firefighters there, minimize the damage, take care of the environment and cultural heritage. 00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:25.120 <v Björn Maiworm>That's in the end. 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:38.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I I like a lot of places do save statistics, but it's it would be very rare to like have a detailed description of what was the building status, like what technical systems did it had, what were they in operation? 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:42.320 <v Björn Maiworm>We don't look at the fire def design or the the the building permit. 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.960 <v Björn Maiworm>It's what's really interesting in this research program, it's non-scientific. 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:49.679 <v Björn Maiworm>There are not any scientists going on scene. 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:54.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Asking you what was the heat release rate and how do you define what is a significant fire, something like that? 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.840 <v Björn Maiworm>Because we use the German phrase for significant fire. 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:05.600 <v Björn Maiworm>It's a fire that is at least so developed that it can ask the question toward the objectives. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:10.480 <v Björn Maiworm>So a small bin fire is too small to ask a firewall, are you strong enough? 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:12.720 <v Björn Maiworm>Or a fire door, 30 minutes resistance. 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:19.919 <v Björn Maiworm>So it needs to be at least bigger than a small burned food kitchen fire, which is done a thing at noon you go there. 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.600 <v Björn Maiworm>And then we spread the news 10 years ago, it's now our anniversary. 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:25.600 <v Björn Maiworm>10 years, thank you. 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:27.600 <v Björn Maiworm>It's a long, long last long journey. 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, long, long journey. 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:36.399 <v Björn Maiworm>And now we cover with the participating fire departments more than a third of the population in Germany. 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:36.879 <v Björn Maiworm>Wow. 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:44.240 <v Björn Maiworm>So with the area where they are responsible, of course, their data set grew in the last four years, five years enormously. 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.320 <v Björn Maiworm>Because it's about trust too. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:55.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Because the fire departments need to trust us as the association of the fire departments, that we don't have a look at the fire department's work. 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:55.360 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.759 <v Björn Maiworm>That we only focus on the building. 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:11.599 <v Björn Maiworm>So when my colleagues go on a scene, for example, in Munich, where the majority of the data set is coming from, like 30 something percent, I always tell them never ever, never say anything about the fire department's work. 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:12.160 <v Björn Maiworm>Don't. 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:13.279 <v Björn Maiworm>That's not the point. 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:14.240 <v Björn Maiworm>It's not the point. 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:15.279 <v Björn Maiworm>Focus on the building. 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:20.240 <v Björn Maiworm>And it even led to a situation where the police officers ask us, what happened here? 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:23.599 <v Björn Maiworm>And then we explained to him, well, the building's design was poor. 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:27.680 <v Björn Maiworm>The landlord's efforts to keep it going were very poor. 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:33.279 <v Björn Maiworm>So, from our point of view, the three people died because of the landlord's failure. 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:35.680 <v Björn Maiworm>And in the end, he was convicted. 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.720 <v Björn Maiworm>So this is another focus that can be an outcome. 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:41.599 <v Björn Maiworm>But now we have more than 2,000 data sets. 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:42.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, that's a lot. 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:43.839 <v Björn Maiworm>That's that really a lot. 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:44.880 <v Björn Maiworm>He can do a lot of things with it. 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:51.359 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>By data sets, you mean you're like real-world fire accidents from which you have the questionnaire filled out by the fire becomes fully full. 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:53.359 <v Björn Maiworm>Uh I just drew a missingness map. 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:54.960 <v Björn Maiworm>So where's data missing? 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:56.319 <v Björn Maiworm>Something that it's really cool. 00:17:56.319 --> 00:18:01.599 <v Björn Maiworm>It's more than 97% of all the questionnaire parts for the listeners. 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:09.279 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The earlier version of the database, which I'm looking at it right now, it had 900 uh data sets, uh, was published in fire technology. 00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:14.640 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I assume it's it's an ongoing, we'll probably discuss about if this evolves and and how. 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.279 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, can you give me like an example? 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like people going into let's say warehouse fire. 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.119 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What kind of data are they supposed to leave you? 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:24.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What are you looking into? 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:28.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like maybe you can maybe have some examples of how a questionnaire looks like a model one. 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:35.680 <v Björn Maiworm>A model one would be an apartment, a fully developed apartment file in a residential building. 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:36.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:37.200 <v Björn Maiworm>In an urban area. 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:37.519 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:43.920 <v Björn Maiworm>It's a very urban data set because the smaller rural departments are not that big represented. 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.519 <v Björn Maiworm>But I will come to that later. 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:53.440 <v Björn Maiworm>But you have this apartment fire and then it's um did you see any or did we have any injured fatalities? 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.599 <v Björn Maiworm>Um what were the means of rescue? 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:57.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So did they escape on their own? 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:00.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Were they rescued by the fire department? 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.720 <v Björn Maiworm>Did we see any smoke spreading? 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.400 <v Björn Maiworm>Because by law it must be pre prevented that smoke spreads. 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:07.839 <v Björn Maiworm>Did we see fire spreading? 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.799 <v Björn Maiworm>Did we see fire spreading towards the neighboring building? 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:11.839 <v Björn Maiworm>Firewall? 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:13.279 <v Björn Maiworm>Middle-aged knowledge? 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:15.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Uh yes, don't laugh, that's it. 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.759 <v Björn Maiworm>Did we have any injured firefighters? 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.319 <v Björn Maiworm>Were there was there a smoke alarm installed? 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:22.640 <v Björn Maiworm>Were then automatic fire some sprinter system all? 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.720 <v Björn Maiworm>But it's not in an apartment building, you don't have any sprinter systems in Germany. 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.359 <v Björn Maiworm>So this is more in the special construction branch. 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:30.880 <v Björn Maiworm>But you still save the data. 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:32.160 <v Björn Maiworm>We saved the data. 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.759 <v Björn Maiworm>And did you did we have any environmental impact and all this stuff? 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:40.960 <v Björn Maiworm>And from the very beginning, like we had 150 to 200 data sets. 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.200 <v Björn Maiworm>The numbers kept being the same. 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.079 <v Björn Maiworm>And I was very surprised that they didn't change anymore. 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:53.759 <v Björn Maiworm>And even if I have a look at sub-datasets from other states in Germany, maybe from Bavaria, from Northern Westphalia, and everywhere. 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:55.359 <v Björn Maiworm>I see the same numbers. 00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:05.920 <v Björn Maiworm>I see the same numbers and the same percentages if the data is coming from Berlin or from a small rural fire department who sent me like 10 questionnaires. 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.319 <v Björn Maiworm>That's really an interesting aspect. 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.400 <v Björn Maiworm>How stable the data set is. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:19.680 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>By stable you mean in terms of uh the likelihood of the fires, like how many times they happened in different times, or no, no, I don't have a look at the likelihood. 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:20.079 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:24.640 <v Björn Maiworm>Because the questionnaire focus if there is a fire, what happened? 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.000 <v Björn Maiworm>And it's kind of biased because I don't look at the small fires. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:42.079 <v Björn Maiworm>So the likeliness, I don't I don't care for the probability about the probability because from a fire department's point of view, I only come to your home, to your apartment, if this probability is summarized in a fire. 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:51.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So then you but by similarities you mean the outcomes, the numbers of injured per residential would it's always the same pattern. 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:56.640 <v Björn Maiworm>So the the likelihood that we see a spreading of smoke is always the same. 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:57.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:00.559 <v Björn Maiworm>About 60% of the cases, two-thirds. 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:01.759 <v Björn Maiworm>I see a smoke. 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:08.400 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, so we we can see a smoke spreading that violates the objective by building law. 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:13.920 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Are you capable of distinguishing this by the age of the building or oh yes, we did that. 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:14.880 <v Björn Maiworm>Very interesting. 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.640 <v Björn Maiworm>This was one of the few results where we were surprised. 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.359 <v Björn Maiworm>So you usually you have a very good gut feeling. 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:25.119 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, let's have a look at the numbers, for example, for injured people of fatalities. 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:32.400 <v Björn Maiworm>Injured people, if there is really a developed fire and you regularly see smoke spreading, as we learned, you will see injured people. 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.000 <v Björn Maiworm>And injured means coughing. 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.000 <v Björn Maiworm>You inhale smoke, and they were injured, they were transported to the hospital. 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:44.240 <v Björn Maiworm>It's not a very sophisticated ICD 10 something medical evaluation, but they were injured. 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.839 <v Björn Maiworm>30% in the cases. 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:53.599 <v Björn Maiworm>If there is a fire, the number of fatalities is from my experience comparatively high at approximately six to seven percent. 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:55.839 <v Björn Maiworm>I think six or seven percent of events. 00:21:55.839 --> 00:22:00.640 <v Björn Maiworm>If there are 100 fires with six or seven fires, you will see a fatality. 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:01.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:05.200 <v Björn Maiworm>That's very high compared to the low fatality numbers we have. 00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:12.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Because we have a lot of small fires that will never ever be big enough to ask the question toward the building. 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:13.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So they are not in our data set. 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:15.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, you're guys, yeah, of course. 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.359 <v Björn Maiworm>So and we see a lot of rescue efforts by the fire departments. 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>As in the fire department has to rescue people. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:29.279 <v Björn Maiworm>We have to rescue they are in the apartment, maybe standing at the windows, and then they can't escape on their own. 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.839 <v Björn Maiworm>So in 40% of the cases. 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:32.960 <v Björn Maiworm>That's quite high. 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.000 <v Björn Maiworm>And then we did just the last master thesis. 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:44.480 <v Björn Maiworm>We work closely together with the Technical University of Munich, and we now have 30 thesis, 13 evaluating the data set. 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:45.359 <v Björn Maiworm>And that that's it. 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:51.519 <v Björn Maiworm>And then, of course, what we always see is smoke spreading, rarely fire spreading towards another unit. 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:56.880 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, but the the the statistics you said, like six percent fatalities, 30% injured. 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.279 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This is for the entire dataset. 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How about when you look by occupation? 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.640 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's all residential. 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:15.119 <v Björn Maiworm>What's really interesting is that we only see three types of buildings where where we have an elevated level of injured and fatalities. 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.559 <v Björn Maiworm>And by gut feeling we knew that, but we couldn't prove it. 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:18.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.720 <v Björn Maiworm>It's jail. 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:21.279 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:24.880 <v Björn Maiworm>Of course, they have that's a challenging evacuation system. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:27.599 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, they don't have an escape plan, actually. 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.319 <v Björn Maiworm>Some of them have, but obviously, yeah, some of them have, but not in that case. 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:37.680 <v Björn Maiworm>So jail has higher values, not a hospital, what you would expect. 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.839 <v Björn Maiworm>I would expect retirement house. 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:40.559 <v Björn Maiworm>It is. 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:42.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, it exactly is. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:48.400 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we see in the data, and we try to prove that with the next thesis, it's a social aspect. 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:48.880 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:55.440 <v Björn Maiworm>Because if you put a lot of people, poor people, regularly, call the poorer, in. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:06.640 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we can see in the data set with another PhD thesis, if you are married, the likeness that you die from a fire is half even less likely than if you're a widow. 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:07.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So widows rise. 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:08.240 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:18.319 <v Björn Maiworm>And that's very interesting because it gives us a perspective of a social aspect and a residential building like student apartments and all this where a lot of people pull people up put together. 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.000 <v Björn Maiworm>We see more likeness of being injured or four fatalities. 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:34.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, this is well, this is challenging that I I keeps popping out, and by common sense, I think it's it's reasonable that you're most likely to be injured in a fire in your own house or or in general in a residential building. 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.119 <v Björn Maiworm>But on a scale where you see that many fires, yeah. 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:49.119 <v Björn Maiworm>What I think it's what is really reasonable as a system of explanation is that if you don't pay that much rent, your landlord can't put that much money in the building. 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:57.359 <v Björn Maiworm>And if you're rich, you have a very thick door towards the stable, for example, because you don't want the noise from the neighbor, don't you? 00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:58.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, yeah. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.519 <v Björn Maiworm>You have modern windows. 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:05.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, so our So in an old building you have the thin doors and the thin windows. 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:12.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, so you want to say that within the residential subset, you have also full subsets that are socially linked. 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:12.480 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:13.359 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, to the risk. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.599 <v Björn Maiworm>So this is one one of the explanations. 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.559 <v Björn Maiworm>And what was really interesting, now I'm coming back to the surprise. 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:23.920 <v Björn Maiworm>We thought the older the building, the more likely it will be that you see smoke spreading. 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:25.359 <v Björn Maiworm>That's what I would say as well. 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.160 <v Björn Maiworm>None really, absolutely no correlation. 00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:29.839 <v Björn Maiworm>Lock it, regression. 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:38.720 <v Björn Maiworm>So we really did some math on it, some statistical doings, and in the end, we saw it connect with the how many floors are there. 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:39.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:48.640 <v Björn Maiworm>And the bigger buildings in urban areas. 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.720 <v Björn Maiworm>Usually poorer people live there. 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:51.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:25:51.200 --> 00:26:03.039 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we saw is in in in the last thesis, if there's a fire in your kitchen or your uh bedroom and all this, 40 to 50 percent likeliness that we see smoke in the stairwell. 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.480 <v Björn Maiworm>If there is a fire in the cellar, more than 80%. 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:07.759 <v Björn Maiworm>But guess what? 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:13.440 <v Björn Maiworm>By German building law, you need a self-closing 30 minutes fire resistor towards the cellar. 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:14.799 <v Björn Maiworm>But usually, what is it? 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:16.799 <v Björn Maiworm>Kept open because it's annoying. 00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:17.359 <v Björn Maiworm>Yes, yes. 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:18.319 <v Björn Maiworm>If you go down the center. 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:19.920 <v Björn Maiworm>Mine is all also open. 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:21.599 <v Björn Maiworm>And we see that in the data. 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Uh we see this common sense. 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:24.880 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're moving to smoke spreading. 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:40.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, could you define what does the firefighter who's doing your inquiry, your your uh questionnaire, when do they say it's the smoke is any proof of smoke outside of the compartment of origin is it's very obvious. 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:45.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, it's very it's not about some well now it smells in the neighboring unit. 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:49.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Usually if we say it's smoke spreading, it's dark. 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:50.319 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, so you can see it. 00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:55.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So this is one of the things when I say it's not very scientific, and we're doing science with it. 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:56.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah. 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:58.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Because it just what is obvious. 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:04.799 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you found smoke spread in um more than half of all your cases. 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:11.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said you're it's it's a contradiction of the German code which explicitly gives you measure to prevent. 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:13.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Do you know what failed? 00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like was it mostly the doors kept open manually? 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:18.559 <v Björn Maiworm>No, it's not keeping the doors open. 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.319 <v Björn Maiworm>It's it's generally the apartment door. 00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:28.559 <v Björn Maiworm>If you don't have a self, if you don't have a self-closing mechanism applied to your door, and you try to get out, you leave the door. 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:40.960 <v Björn Maiworm>What we regularly see is if someone's trying to flee and and and he comes to the border between hot and cold, his system, his body collapses and he's lying right in the door, even though it's, for example, self-clothing. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:47.279 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we saw in a subset very new data is like almost 20 years ago, they introduced self-closing doors. 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:49.039 <v Björn Maiworm>No, 30 years ago in Bavaria. 00:27:49.039 --> 00:28:02.480 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we now see to compare to the state that don't have that, that the preding likeness reduced to the stairwell, but not down to the level what would be expected from a technical point of view. 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:07.279 <v Björn Maiworm>Like a self-closing mechanism fails in 1% of the case, something like that. 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:08.240 <v Björn Maiworm>Why is that? 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:09.920 <v Björn Maiworm>Multitude of explanations. 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:14.720 <v Björn Maiworm>But one could be they disengage the self-closing mechanism because it's annoying. 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:20.880 <v Björn Maiworm>You have your baby on your arm, you shoot in your in the back, and you try to get in, and the door is self-closing, all this crap. 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:22.799 <v Björn Maiworm>So it doesn't work. 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:24.559 <v Björn Maiworm>And it needs maintenance, of course. 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:29.680 <v Björn Maiworm>And it's not checked like any other fire-resistant door at another place in the building. 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.200 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What about the pathways like the building ventilation system? 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:35.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like I'm a smoke control engineer. 00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:40.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>A lot of my work is towards smoke control, which is obviously a ventilation system. 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:53.200 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But the the first step of successful smoke control is to shut down the HVC in the building, which means I have to turn everything off and close in the big building a thousand fire dampers. 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:57.680 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Have you seen any uh signs of that system? 00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:02.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, what we see is apartment door, most likely, then the window, obviously. 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:07.440 <v Björn Maiworm>You mean true exterior, so the smoke exits and enters towards another unit. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:07.839 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:14.559 <v Björn Maiworm>So if I talk about smoke spreading, I mean violating the border of the very apartment or the so-called unit. 00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:18.960 <v Björn Maiworm>So you're fine with the fire being in one unit and if it goes to another unit. 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:23.599 <v Björn Maiworm>If you have a fire in your kitchen, we expect there to be smoke in your bedroom. 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:23.839 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:24.720 <v Björn Maiworm>I don't care. 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.119 <v Björn Maiworm>Questionnaire we say smoke spreading, no. 00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:31.680 <v Björn Maiworm>But if your neighbor so building law is mainly protecting you from your neighbor. 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:38.160 <v Björn Maiworm>So there we see the window, and what we see are shafts inside the apartment building. 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:41.279 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we see is the very experience we have. 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:50.319 <v Björn Maiworm>For example, you have a fire on the first floor, and then at the top floor, you regularly see smoke spreading by the shaft. 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:51.599 <v Björn Maiworm>This is very common sense. 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:56.960 <v Björn Maiworm>You have a kitchen shaft, for example, or from the bathroom, and then it tries to leave the building. 00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:58.799 <v Björn Maiworm>It draws back. 00:29:58.799 --> 00:29:59.599 <v Björn Maiworm>So it's double. 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:02.559 <v Björn Maiworm>The likeliness for the top floor. 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:06.079 <v Björn Maiworm>So, from a firefighting perspective, that's interesting too. 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:08.640 <v Björn Maiworm>Because usually you would check the next floor. 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:16.640 <v Björn Maiworm>And I myself, knowing the data, I regularly send someone to look at the top floor in the bathroom, in the kitchen, if there's smoke. 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:18.480 <v Björn Maiworm>And I even have a fatality once. 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:23.200 <v Björn Maiworm>An ordinary kitchen fire on the first floor led to a fatality in the top floor. 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.839 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was not me, but my colleague from office, Jagosh. 00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:42.160 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, he was once investigating a case where there was a fatality in a building, and allegedly the wind conditions in that day were so that CO produced by someone else's heater was released through the chimney, and the wind pushed that CO into the chimney. 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:43.200 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, CO is bad. 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:53.200 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, we and we we have investigated this case uh through wind engineering for that particular day building to judge if it was scientifically possible or not. 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:54.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was possible. 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.359 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was very likely actually. 00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:00.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we were just discussing about the smoke spread, the doors, the shafts, the windows. 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:02.319 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And what about the ways of fire spread? 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:03.359 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What have you seen? 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.839 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, as as I said, fire spread doesn't occur that often. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:08.640 <v Björn Maiworm>15%. 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:09.440 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:16.160 <v Björn Maiworm>And then I thought, well, maybe we can see a focus as we saw with the smoke spreading. 00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.920 <v Björn Maiworm>We don't see any focus. 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:25.359 <v Björn Maiworm>It's like common sense, flat distribution of the categorized ways of fire spreading. 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:35.599 <v Björn Maiworm>That, from my point of view, leads to the assumption that all the civil engineers do a good job connecting walls and floors and ceilings. 00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:37.039 <v Björn Maiworm>That's mainly it. 00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:40.720 <v Björn Maiworm>And designing fire resistance in any capacity. 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:43.359 <v Björn Maiworm>So no task to talk about. 00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:44.400 <v Björn Maiworm>It's kind of boring. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:50.720 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you just got you just have the statistics, but it's well, still I I find quite a large number, 177. 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:58.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Was the it was is it again a majority in the residential buildings or I have a majority of data sets from the residential buildings. 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:03.359 <v Björn Maiworm>And I don't see, and I have looked in the sub data sets, I don't see any focus. 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:09.039 <v Björn Maiworm>I see nothing concerning anything where we'd say, well, oh, there we have something that could be better. 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:10.160 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, just stop it. 00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.279 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I mean if if there's a statistic that's boring, that's good. 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, if there's a fire statistic. 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.519 <v Björn Maiworm>It just shows that we know what we are doing. 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:20.400 <v Björn Maiworm>But we didn't talk about the elephant in the room. 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:22.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Do we need to get better? 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:22.400 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah? 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:24.319 <v Björn Maiworm>Do we need to change anything? 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:29.599 <v Björn Maiworm>And from our point of view, with the lowest numbers in fraternities in Germany ever. 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:30.319 <v Björn Maiworm>No. 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:41.359 <v Björn Maiworm>So as a society, if one person dies in a very unlikely event of a fire, lying in his bed, maybe an elderly person and couldn't escape. 00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:44.319 <v Björn Maiworm>That's very dramatic for the person, a tragedy, isn't it? 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:48.799 <v Björn Maiworm>But for us as a society, it's just a small news in the newspaper. 00:32:48.799 --> 00:33:02.079 <v Björn Maiworm>If we have a multitude of fatalities, like ten people dying in an elderly home fire, as we had in the last years in Germany regularly, then it makes nationwide news. 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:10.160 <v Björn Maiworm>And if you have a catastrophic fire like Düsseldorf Fairport or uh Grenfell Tower, it makes worldwide news and has an impact. 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:23.440 <v Björn Maiworm>If we go down to the number of like 100 fatalities in the magnitude of that, this is where we have look at so we don't need any better fire propagation measures, down to 15%, that's nothing. 00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:26.240 <v Björn Maiworm>And smoke, we just observe. 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:39.279 <v Björn Maiworm>But our conclusion is maybe we need don't just need a regulation for hospitals, maybe we could, it would be respectful toward the elderly to introduce a building regulation for the home for the elderly. 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:43.519 <v Björn Maiworm>But from a cost perspective, they decided no, we won't do that. 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:45.759 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, technically you see that. 00:33:45.759 --> 00:34:03.119 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I find it interesting in this data set that you can see, like for the Bavarian case and the fire doors, there is a measurable improvement in those statistics at this number of Was there anything else like that so obvious in the statistics that made a big difference? 00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:16.079 <v Björn Maiworm>Were you able to track any other cases of uh modifications in the No We didn't have a look at the modifications yet because the last modifications in the building code were introduced by us? 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:16.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay. 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:21.760 <v Björn Maiworm>So with the RD, and you need at least two decades to see that in the data set. 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:28.400 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But okay, but you must have a differences between lands, like different approaches to do, for example, an assembly hall. 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:31.760 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or it's not unified in general Germany, right, as far as I know. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:39.360 <v Björn Maiworm>Because we do have these model building regulations, and I'm part of several of these groups that write these um regulations. 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:46.960 <v Björn Maiworm>The deviation between the model and the actual one in the very of the 16 states, it's just a very small deviation. 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.280 <v Björn Maiworm>They are mainly the same. 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.960 <v Björn Maiworm>And we don't see fatalities in assembly halls and all this. 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:53.760 <v Björn Maiworm>And why is that? 00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:00.719 <v Björn Maiworm>Because in assembly halls, for example, in a football stadium, 60,000 fans yelling in a circus stadium. 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.079 <v Björn Maiworm>If there anything fails, it fails bad. 00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.719 <v Björn Maiworm>So this is why we don't see anything there. 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:13.039 <v Björn Maiworm>And it's like you you could say we have the fewest car crash fatalities ever in Germany. 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.840 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, we don't need a seatbelt anymore. 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.039 <v Björn Maiworm>No one would say that. 00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:18.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Yes, yes, yes. 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:32.480 <v Björn Maiworm>But this is a problem in from my point of view in the building regulations, because you have a social technical system, and any change needs a long time to really show what will happen in the system. 00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:33.840 <v Björn Maiworm>It takes decades. 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.639 <v Björn Maiworm>This is from my point of view very difficult to decide. 00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:42.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, let's get off rid, for example, of stairwell surfaces must be non-flammable. 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:48.960 <v Björn Maiworm>For every engineer, it was absolutely clear if they have a wooden stairwell, it's like a chimney. 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:50.079 <v Björn Maiworm>A wooden chimney. 00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:51.840 <v Björn Maiworm>So a very rapid fire spread. 00:35:51.840 --> 00:36:00.159 <v Björn Maiworm>But I've seen proof engineers stating, well, we install a fire alarm, a smoke alarm, and alarm the fire department early, they will cover that problem. 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.760 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we've seen now with wooden constructions, another paper, is that that doesn't work. 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:13.199 <v Björn Maiworm>The fire is that fast that even if you alarm the fire department earlier with a very rapid fire growth, that's great. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:14.559 <v Björn Maiworm>We you have no chance. 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:20.400 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You have kind of led me to another question I wanted to ask because the world is changing so fast. 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:25.360 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I see three technologies right now that could tremendously change all of this. 00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.639 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One is the timber, the return of timber to construction. 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You must see this in statistics. 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:31.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I I would assume you would see. 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:33.360 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, we did, we published a paper on that too. 00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.440 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In a second, we'll we'll talk about that. 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.880 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The second would be the energy storage in your buildings. 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:43.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In in terms of power, maybe we don't have power walls uh large enough. 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:46.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And and three would be immobility, something that FSRI shows. 00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:47.920 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>No, you haven't seen that in your statistics. 00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:48.639 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, we did. 00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:49.119 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You did. 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:50.639 <v Björn Maiworm>We did a lot of research on that. 00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:56.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, we had the largest fire test worldwide concerning Lypium iron batteries. 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:56.320 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:59.440 <v Björn Maiworm>Together with the Technical University of Porschweig, Professor Tsifus. 00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:03.039 <v Björn Maiworm>We had eighty tons of batteries. 00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:04.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Eighty tons. 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:04.800 <v Björn Maiworm>80 tons. 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:05.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's a little bit about it. 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:08.320 <v Björn Maiworm>So just to go through all your three aspects. 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:08.719 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:11.119 <v Björn Maiworm>First of all, wooden constructions. 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.199 <v Björn Maiworm>It's not about the fire resistance. 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.920 <v Björn Maiworm>If you have a large thank you for saying that. 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:17.280 <v Björn Maiworm>I'm uh looking for that. 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:22.880 <v Björn Maiworm>Large piece of timber you can calculate by Euro code five the fire resistance. 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.000 <v Björn Maiworm>So it can be endlessly from that point of view. 00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:26.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's just a number. 00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:27.760 <v Björn Maiworm>It's just a number. 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:28.960 <v Björn Maiworm>But I don't care. 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:37.039 <v Björn Maiworm>I care from a topological point of view, from a system point of view, how often do we see a full loss of a building? 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So once a year in Germany, no one cares. 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:57.679 <v Björn Maiworm>But if there's a small fire in an apartment, a kitchen fire, yeah, and you regularly lose the whole building with a lot of fatalities because of the enormous speed, because you don't put plaster on the wall, the visibility of surfaces, wooden surfaces changes the game totally. 00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:05.760 <v Björn Maiworm>And I don't know any fire department in the world that could cope with a fire on three floors at the same time. 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:10.320 <v Björn Maiworm>Because you have that many flammable fumes on the outside of a window. 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:14.639 <v Björn Maiworm>We don't see a fire spread just into the next floor through a window. 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:19.360 <v Björn Maiworm>But the heat is so it goes to the third, second or third floor above. 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:21.760 <v Björn Maiworm>And I don't know any firewind that could cope with that. 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:32.320 <v Björn Maiworm>So it's more about speed and less about fire resistance, it's more about flammability than the problem if a wall burns to okay, Mr. 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:32.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Firefighter. 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:34.159 <v Björn Maiworm>But do you have a proof for that? 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:34.960 <v Björn Maiworm>I have. 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:44.719 <v Björn Maiworm>In the paper we just published in German in Bautechnik, regularly we see uh fire spread in approximately 15%, mainly through a window. 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:50.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Uh in wooden construction, it's a very small data set, of course, because we don't have that many buildings yet. 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:51.679 <v Björn Maiworm>More than 50%. 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:57.599 <v Björn Maiworm>And firewalls, for example, are really good middle-aged knowledge. 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:04.639 <v Björn Maiworm>We usually see like 2% of the cases, and regularly only in row in terraced houses. 00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.000 <v Björn Maiworm>So the small ones. 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:11.280 <v Björn Maiworm>In the bigger buildings, we don't see any fire spread crossing a firewall between buildings. 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:17.440 <v Björn Maiworm>But with timber construction regularly, like going up to 15%, 20%. 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.280 <v Björn Maiworm>We we don't know that. 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:19.840 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:25.280 <v Björn Maiworm>If there's a firewall, you can rely on it as from a tactical point of view. 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:26.559 <v Björn Maiworm>But now we have proof. 00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:33.119 <v Björn Maiworm>It's a small data set, but we have the first not proof, but maybe indicators proving our gut feeling. 00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:37.280 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a a small data set, but uh unfortunately growing. 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh so uh fast. 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:42.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Just got some pictures yesterday from a colleague of mine. 00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:46.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How about uh the batteries and uh how about okay about batteries? 00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:50.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Um tell you you have a canister of fuel at home. 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.239 <v Björn Maiworm>You would sell okay, this is flammable and no problem at all. 00:39:54.239 --> 00:40:00.960 <v Björn Maiworm>You have a car, ordinary car with fuel in your garage that could be on fire, couldn't it be? 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:05.760 <v Björn Maiworm>But we learned as a society that's so unlikely with the ordinary garage, this works out. 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.119 <v Björn Maiworm>Now coming to data. 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:08.480 <v Björn Maiworm>Let's do a mind trick. 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:21.519 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, you sell your fueled car, you buy an electrical car, you buy a home storage battery system in your cellar, and a PV system, a photovoltaic system. 00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:27.920 <v Björn Maiworm>And I asked the question towards the underwriters of all German insurance companies. 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:29.199 <v Björn Maiworm>They had an a meeting. 00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:33.760 <v Björn Maiworm>Said, what do you think will happen with the likeliness, the probability of a fire? 00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.599 <v Björn Maiworm>And they all wrote their hands, but plus 50%, plus 200%. 00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:41.920 <v Björn Maiworm>Um, there was a paper from the uh University of Aachen. 00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:48.320 <v Björn Maiworm>The actual data, a huge data set, shows minus minus 17%. 00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:49.760 <v Björn Maiworm>Minus. 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:50.639 <v Björn Maiworm>Minus. 00:40:50.639 --> 00:41:00.880 <v Björn Maiworm>So if you sell your car in your single family home and buy an e-cor, a battery, and a PV system, you lower your risk. 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:11.039 <v Björn Maiworm>The probability for a fire of the PV system or your battery storing the PV energy is as low as your tumble dryer or your washing machine. 00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:13.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Only the fridge is safer. 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:15.360 <v Björn Maiworm>Which allegedly was the case of Grandfall, by the way. 00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:16.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:19.760 <v Björn Maiworm>But in in the end, as a society, it's okay. 00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:27.039 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we see in Germany, if there's a fire, a house fire, it's not a technological problem, it's a product problem. 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:32.480 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, too many factor manufacturers had problems with their batteries, they had a huge recall. 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:41.920 <v Björn Maiworm>And what we see a lot are some guys that believe they could put their batteries themselves together by some fancy YouTube video. 00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:49.360 <v Björn Maiworm>And if I would tell you, well, I engineered at home my own gas heating. 00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.599 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, and gas is so dangerous, now my house exploded. 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:59.519 <v Björn Maiworm>You would never say, Oh, gas is uh the issue, the problem isn't the problem. 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:00.719 <v Björn Maiworm>You're an idiot. 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:01.280 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yes. 00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:05.199 <v Björn Maiworm>Buy a heater from a company and it won't be a problem. 00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:18.719 <v Björn Maiworm>But okay, but but coming to other aspects, what we see in the data, and we changed our model building code towards uh steel garages, is that the fires are more intense, but not due to batteries. 00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:22.400 <v Björn Maiworm>What we see is the cars got bigger, yeah SUVs and all that. 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:38.719 <v Björn Maiworm>A lot of papers going in the community around, it's about if we keep the parking spaces with the same size, so the cars are closer together, it takes not 50 minutes but seven minutes for fire spreading toward the next car, and we see these huge fires. 00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:44.800 <v Björn Maiworm>And the only thing we need to learn as a fire department is how to cope with the venting causes. 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:48.960 <v Björn Maiworm>If there's a problem with the venting and the batteries because of the thermal cause. 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:57.280 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But didn't don't you see in statistics the okay, we'll we just uh briefly touch the electric vehicles in terms of of scooters, etc. 00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Don't you scooters is another story. 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:08.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, but but don't you see those uh batteries be participants, not necessarily sources of the fire and making the outcomes measurably worse? 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:21.760 <v Björn Maiworm>Like all we know is, and we did I do a lot of research with batteries, and we got a lot of uh fire tests going on with about storing, and we will just publish next week a recommendation for storing batteries and production facilities. 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:28.480 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is like comparing it again to fuel if you have a huge tank of gasoline stored. 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:33.840 <v Björn Maiworm>Everyone will say, Well, there we need special regulations for storing this huge amount of fuel. 00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:35.679 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is the same with batteries. 00:43:35.679 --> 00:44:04.480 <v Björn Maiworm>So we will introduce a recommendation that states if you're above the level of five tons, was this a suggestion just to start somewhere, separate these areas approximately 150 square meters, but not separating with firewalls or resistance, but even stacked uh concrete stones, like playing that I don't know, I don't I'm not in the blocks, not let don't let's use the product name, these blocks. 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:26.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Like, and then you don't prevent the fire from spreading totally, but you give the fire department time to attack at a point at which they can well they still can act because if you have the model building regulation for industrial buildings in Germany, you would be allowed to put a storage facility 1200 square meters, a distance of three meters, another one thousand two hundred square meters. 00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:28.079 <v Björn Maiworm>That would be too big. 00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:30.079 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay, Bjorn, and and the scooters? 00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:33.679 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, I think we need more common sense. 00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:36.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Are you well but oh well let's put it another way. 00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:45.519 <v Björn Maiworm>If I told you I put my old cheap moped with fuel in the stairwell, now it's on fire, everyone was injured. 00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:46.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Or I put it in my apartment. 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:47.679 <v Björn Maiworm>You're an idiot. 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.639 <v Björn Maiworm>You're an idiot. 00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:57.360 <v Björn Maiworm>And what are we doing is we're putting these materials in our apartment, and usually a car battery doesn't fall down. 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:01.119 <v Björn Maiworm>It's one of the mechanisms to start a fire in a battery, in a failure in a fire. 00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:09.119 <v Björn Maiworm>And then we have these batteries, we let them fall down, it gets knocked down, we don't handle it carefully, and then we are surprised. 00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:12.239 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, oh, the bad battery night in my apartment. 00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:14.159 <v Björn Maiworm>Yes, why did it do so? 00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:20.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Because if you buy the cheap product and you don't take care of it, don't be surprised if it's on fire. 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:24.480 <v Björn Maiworm>Of course, we see that in the data that there are more fires of this kind. 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:33.440 <v Björn Maiworm>But we as a society learned don't take your fueled car, bike, motorbike in your apartment. 00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:38.400 <v Björn Maiworm>And they take their fuel, their battery, back in the apartment. 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:40.079 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is what we will learn. 00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:41.440 <v Björn Maiworm>By blood. 00:45:41.679 --> 00:45:49.280 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, it's a challenging topic because I I also as you said a lot of that is connected to social status. 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:55.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if you are rich enough to have a separate space to keep your mouth somewhere, it's safer. 00:45:55.199 --> 00:46:02.239 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But if you're just renting one bedroom for half of your wage and you have to keep it somewhere, it's not that you have much choice. 00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:03.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's very challenging. 00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:07.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So but it's interesting that you can see things like that in statistics later. 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:24.480 <v Björn Maiworm>We can see it, and what I think what is important to note is that from a regulator's point of view, from the elected representative's point of view, when will the problem be big enough that we need to introduce a regulation? 00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:26.480 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, and yeah, very interesting. 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.960 <v Björn Maiworm>From not from the point of view how to make it better, safer. 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:32.639 <v Björn Maiworm>I I don't like these phrases. 00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:36.480 <v Björn Maiworm>I I mean, is it really necessary to change anything? 00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:41.679 <v Björn Maiworm>Or is it just common sense in the society developing? 00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:47.519 <v Björn Maiworm>And we are really fast in getting better concerning this technology. 00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:54.960 <v Björn Maiworm>For example, the Chinese market will introduce a regulation in I think two years that the propagation in the battery is prohibited. 00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:56.079 <v Björn Maiworm>Is prohibited. 00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:01.199 <v Björn Maiworm>So I've seen the engineering in Germany, and you know I'm from Munich, and we have some smaller companies there. 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:03.599 <v Björn Maiworm>Some companies. 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:07.599 <v Björn Maiworm>And they showed me how they engineered a solution. 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:09.119 <v Björn Maiworm>I was really impressed. 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:22.159 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I was just on a conference on batteries in China, and you know, seeing hundreds and hundreds of researchers and each group working on some sort of a solution at the battery level, at the cell level. 00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:34.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, I'm not saying that I've seen the final greatest solution already there, but I just seen you, you know, those hundreds and hundreds of people working towards one and their accumulated effort will yield a good solution. 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.920 <v Björn Maiworm>And we are that fast, almost in less than a decade, we find solutions. 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:53.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Because if you compare to the ordinary car, when I became a voluntary firefighter in 1999, a few years ago, the elder, so the old firefighters told me, Well, if there's a car crash, you need to be prepared for a car on fire. 00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:54.320 <v Björn Maiworm>I've never seen that. 00:47:54.320 --> 00:48:00.000 <v Björn Maiworm>Because in the 1990s, we've seen an improvement in the technology itself. 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:05.039 <v Björn Maiworm>Airbags were invented, all the passive systems, the active systems. 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:08.320 <v Björn Maiworm>So the car knew, oh well, there's an impact. 00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:11.280 <v Björn Maiworm>Now I need to stop the pump from pumping fuel. 00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:11.679 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:13.840 <v Björn Maiworm>And we don't see any coal fires. 00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:18.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Just putting the the the fuel tank underneath the vehicle has seemed a Yes. 00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.480 <v Björn Maiworm>So and this took like 30, 40, 50 years. 00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:24.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Now we see it in just one decade. 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:29.679 <v Björn Maiworm>So please do stop arguing about we need to make it safer. 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.960 <v Björn Maiworm>I mean, yeah, you didn't from a building regulations perspective. 00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, uh you have to appreciate it's also politics, you know, and and of course. 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:44.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And and if it's a political decision, but if in here in this podcast we talk science and engineering, we don't do politics. 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.639 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, but I appreciate the fact that politics exists. 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:50.559 <v Björn Maiworm>But the ALAP principle is the common sense too. 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:50.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah. 00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:53.840 <v Björn Maiworm>Is it safe enough from that point of view? 00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:54.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Where do we start? 00:48:54.960 --> 00:49:06.719 <v Björn Maiworm>What and our idea is to put the finger in the wound where it is necessary, and to even introduce a deregulation where possible. 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:13.679 <v Björn Maiworm>For example, what was really interesting, the German regulations about fire extinguishers at work. 00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:14.719 <v Björn Maiworm>The necessity. 00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:20.159 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, they designed the amount of fire extinguishers by the fire load that is there. 00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:26.320 <v Björn Maiworm>I don't know if you've seen the video from the climate where they not very successful. 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:39.760 <v Björn Maiworm>Didn't use these very what we see in the data is if they use multiple fire extinguishers at one time, the likeliness, or what we assert, that someone will be injured doubles from 30 to 60 percent. 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:58.719 <v Björn Maiworm>And 23 years ago, my former boss, and he was also the chairman of this expert group for fire prevention of the fire departments, we published a recommendation stating put there one standardized fire extinguisher every half escape route length, so approximately 17 to 18 meters. 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:04.559 <v Björn Maiworm>And if this one fire extinguisher's extinguisher is empty, run, leave the building. 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:08.320 <v Björn Maiworm>Do you know why that was never introduced in our regulations? 00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:19.760 <v Björn Maiworm>Because we are not part of that group, because the manufacturers for fire extinguishers argued the fire departments don't know how to work and to fight a fire with a fire extinguisher. 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:26.400 <v Björn Maiworm>So we as the experts, as the producers, we want, of course, more fire extinguishers. 00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:31.440 <v Björn Maiworm>So by getting rid of fire extinguishers, we would enhance fire safety. 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:34.400 <v Björn Maiworm>Because you don't give a this promise of safety. 00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:44.719 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, never ever put three or four fire extinguishers side by side at one place, because in the event of a fire, it will lead people to stay too long. 00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:46.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's a very intriguing uh finding. 00:50:46.960 --> 00:51:01.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, it reminds me of a YouTube video where someone guy was talking about like he was an expert in industrial electrical uh power plants, and he was responding to a comment like, What uh steps would you take when there's a fire in a power plant? 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And he said those would be quite big ones and very fast ones. 00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:07.440 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's the types of steps I would be taking. 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:08.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Very good. 00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:10.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Um Bjorn, we're we're moving towards the end. 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:18.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, there's one more interest because it's it's like we we sidestepped into very interesting philosophical discussion, which I think was very, very needed. 00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:26.239 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One last final item for engineers because you also shown the time of intervention from your statistics. 00:51:26.239 --> 00:51:36.239 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I find this very, very interesting because it's a usable data point that fire engineers can actually argue with in their fire strategies. 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:44.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Oh, like when people discuss the safety of timber buildings, I have another colleague in the office who is an advocate for timber buildings. 00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:48.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm also kind of an advocate for timber buildings, just to do them reasonably. 00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And uh people all sometimes confront us. 00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:53.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Oh, he says that it's not a problem. 00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:55.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You say it's potentially a problem. 00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:57.039 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How how can you speak so differently? 00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:07.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I'm like, yeah, but he is dealing with like two-story tall residential buildings, and I am contemplating uh a hundred-meter-tall skyscraper out of timber as a completely different problem. 00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:16.400 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And the one of the main differences is how soon the fire brigade can start their operations because that's a timeline that competes with the fire growth timeline. 00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:17.440 <v Björn Maiworm>Oh, oh, oh. 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.320 <v Björn Maiworm>That that data is heavily discussed between the chiefs of the fire departments. 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:26.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, they like it because they like it and they dislike it at once. 00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:28.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Because let me let me help you. 00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:34.159 <v Björn Maiworm>We don't have data, but I I now have, but I didn't publish it yet because I must show the chiefs. 00:52:34.159 --> 00:52:40.400 <v Björn Maiworm>How long was the time frame between when the fire started and when you when it was discovered? 00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:46.400 <v Björn Maiworm>So when did they call in how how much it was in the hidden phase, let's say. 00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:48.320 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, so how long do we did it take? 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:49.360 <v Björn Maiworm>Approximately. 00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:54.079 <v Björn Maiworm>So, and because if you design a fire department, where to put the stations? 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:56.960 <v Björn Maiworm>In Germany, we have an isochronical model. 00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:01.599 <v Björn Maiworm>So somewhere between eight and ten minutes, we need to be on scene starting from the call. 00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:02.159 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:04.239 <v Björn Maiworm>So it's like circles around the fire station. 00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:06.159 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not that the call is not zero. 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:08.960 <v Björn Maiworm>Timestamp, you call. 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:11.280 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah, and we arrive on scene. 00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:12.239 <v Björn Maiworm>Eight to ten minutes. 00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:14.800 <v Björn Maiworm>We have millions of data sets. 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:26.159 <v Björn Maiworm>But what we didn't have was how long does it take after arriving, after pushing the status button, I arrived on my radio until we start rescuing and firefighting. 00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:27.760 <v Björn Maiworm>This is this very data. 00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:28.079 <v Björn Maiworm>Yeah. 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:46.559 <v Björn Maiworm>And what's interesting, and I have a bet with my fire chief going because he introduced a new scientific project called Flash Blitzendurm, where he changed tactics, single attacking, like specialized, like special forces working on this to become faster in this aspect. 00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:51.440 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay because it was annoyed that it took us like eight minutes average in the fifth floor. 00:53:51.440 --> 00:54:03.199 <v Björn Maiworm>And I have a bet running that with my ideas, I can gain more time than he will do with his tactical technical approach, just but not because in this data they have two aspects. 00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:07.519 <v Björn Maiworm>We arrive on scene, and then you must look where to enter the building. 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:09.519 <v Björn Maiworm>Where's the entrance door? 00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:16.639 <v Björn Maiworm>And the second phase is ordering your attack trip to climb up the stairs and to enter the fire. 00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:27.840 <v Björn Maiworm>And if you arrive, for example, again at your single family home, well, it's a single family home, there's a door to walk the street, you enter, and on the left side there's a kitchen fire. 00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:29.599 <v Björn Maiworm>So in average, three minutes. 00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:38.880 <v Björn Maiworm>If you go in an urban area, like here in Warsaw, in Munich, and Hamburg and Berling, wherever, you have these buildings where what where's the house? 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:39.679 <v Björn Maiworm>What's the house then? 00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:40.480 <v Björn Maiworm>Bay in the street. 00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:41.440 <v Björn Maiworm>Well, where's the entry? 00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:42.079 <v Björn Maiworm>52. 00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:43.519 <v Björn Maiworm>Oh no, it's 55 to B. 00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:44.000 <v Björn Maiworm>B. 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:44.400 <v Björn Maiworm>Oh yeah. 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.039 <v Björn Maiworm>And then you're looking around and all this. 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:52.079 <v Björn Maiworm>And by experience, and a third of my job is being chief officer in charge. 00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:55.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So I have still have possibility to have the practical unit. 00:54:55.920 --> 00:55:00.800 <v Björn Maiworm>Usually it's like, oh damn, in midnight, maybe two o'clock in the morning. 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:02.559 <v Björn Maiworm>Where's the damn entrance? 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:03.920 <v Björn Maiworm>And there we lose a lot of time. 00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:12.480 <v Björn Maiworm>So the fire prevention department of the Munich Fire Department will introduce data in a fire app on a tablet for all trucks going there. 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:22.159 <v Björn Maiworm>Not pointing the place of the fire in the middle of the building, the dot on the map, but to point the dot where the entrance is. 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:23.920 <v Björn Maiworm>So I don't lose that time. 00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:30.480 <v Björn Maiworm>And the bet is, my very cheap thing to do will be more effective than his project. 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:30.880 <v Björn Maiworm>Okay. 00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:32.880 <v Björn Maiworm>And this is what I really do like about him. 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:33.920 <v Björn Maiworm>He's innovative. 00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:39.280 <v Björn Maiworm>And he says, Well, um Bjorn, you are an expensive firefighter, of course, as an officer I level. 00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:49.920 <v Björn Maiworm>But for us as a city, it's very important to have someone there looking around, getting the knowledge back to Munich and bringing it in the system. 00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.559 <v Björn Maiworm>This is why my job was invented, actually. 00:55:52.559 --> 00:56:02.400 <v Björn Maiworm>So because the Munich taxpayer could argue why is he in Warsaw at a conference and listening to really cool guys what they are doing? 00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:08.320 <v Björn Maiworm>Because in the end, I'm not just doing the work for the John Fire Department, but for the city of Munich. 00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:09.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic, Bjorn. 00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:16.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And uh thank you for doing this important job for the city of Munich, and I'm really grateful that we can learn along with you. 00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:22.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And uh big thanks for sharing those insights with the listeners of the fire science show. 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:28.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Any uh final words, how would you like to give your final uh call of wisdom to the listeners after this? 00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:30.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I I'll I'll rephrase. 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You you are continuing this. 00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:37.440 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What lessons do you hope to learn through this exercise? 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:38.719 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Continuing it. 00:56:39.039 --> 00:56:46.880 <v Björn Maiworm>I hope to learn what are the most important toppings to deal with that have the highest impact. 00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:56.480 <v Björn Maiworm>But in other words, from my point of view, and scientifically speaking, fire safety is not a complicated system like statics. 00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:57.920 <v Björn Maiworm>It's a complex system. 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:05.679 <v Björn Maiworm>And scientifically speaking, it's an probe sense response system, like we do as firefighting officers. 00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:10.000 <v Björn Maiworm>I don't have a standardized IKEA design plan how to fight a fire. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:11.920 <v Björn Maiworm>We learn as we walk. 00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:22.559 <v Björn Maiworm>This is I want to encourage engineers to think out of the complicated box and to allow themselves to enter the complex branch. 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:27.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think one thing that that that is that you're doing this exercise continuously. 00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:30.239 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You said those data points converge. 00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:38.960 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What would be very interesting, and you have to call me if that happens, when something goes out of convergence, when you see something has changed, you know? 00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:40.079 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Wooden constructions. 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:42.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, right enormously. 00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:43.119 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah. 00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:52.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But this is like by doing this exercise, you're also passively monitoring how how what's what's happening right now for for which it will take decades. 00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:52.400 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah. 00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:57.760 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But if you if you don't do it, if we don't have the questionnaires and we don't model that in decades we still will not know. 00:57:57.760 --> 00:57:58.400 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you, Bjorn. 00:57:58.639 --> 00:57:59.119 <v Björn Maiworm>Thank you very much. 00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:00.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's it, thank you for listening. 00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:14.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We went through 900 uh fires in Germany, but Bjorn has uh almost 2000 in the database, so many of the things he has said goes even beyond the fire technology paper, which I actually highly recommend to anyone. 00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:17.920 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The link to the paper is in the show notes. 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:28.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So if you would like to look at the source material, look into the tables, look into more detailed description of the failures of fire safety systems and regimes, please uh go and do that. 00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:38.239 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think Bjorn presented a quite an interesting viewpoint, philosophical viewpoint on on where the fire safety should go and how much should change. 00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:40.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it it's it's kind of interesting. 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:51.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, we we are able to narrow down the areas where the problems are, though I'm not so sure if the solutions are with us, if you know what I mean. 00:58:51.519 --> 00:59:00.000 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If the problems are in residential housing and they come from social status, you're not gonna solve them through fire detection. 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:12.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If the issues are with the retirement houses and you are incapable to get political will to issue new legislation and increase the safety there, it's it's not a fire safety engineering problem. 00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:15.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like we know the solution, it's just not embedded in the law. 00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:30.239 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And and contrary, if we know that something doesn't work, it's very difficult to remove it from the system to know to to to create some sort of fresh space where different measures could be installed instead of the the existing ones. 00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:45.280 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And and finally, some of the considerations of Bjorn about uh mass timber are very, very discouraging to be honest, if they increase the likelihood for floor to floor fire spread or compartment to compartment fire spread. 00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:53.519 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So tremendously that this really looks like a potential problem, and we know that it could work like that because of the additional fuel load. 00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:57.199 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I really appreciate how he said that it's not about fire resistance. 00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:59.840 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anyway, this task is ongoing, the German collision. 00:59:59.840 --> 01:00:02.400 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Are still collecting their statistics. 01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:10.880 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know there is a follow-up to the Eurostat project, so I hope we will get even better statistics in whole Europe already. 01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:14.719 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know there's a big project revamping the statistics in the US. 01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:19.599 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I will get in touch with people who are doing that because I also think it's interesting. 01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:36.480 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I hope we will continue this collective learning exercise from the data we can achieve because the best we can do for people who were harmed in those tragedies is to at least learn something from it to perhaps prevent them in the future. 01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:38.559 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's what I would like. 01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:40.800 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anyway, that would be it for today. 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:46.880 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope you have a great day, a great week, and I hope to see you here next Wednesday. 01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:48.320 <v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you, bye.

229 - Learning from 900 fires with Björn Maiworm

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