Andy Paul - Author of Sell Without Selling

 Let's just say 5 million sales people in the United States, there are 5 million distinct
 unique ways to sell. The goal should be for a manager is to say how can I help this
 person that's selling become the best, the best version of themselves. Here's the reality,
 a beer and sales and there was a study that came out 82% of fires will look at a sales
 person's LinkedIn profile before they speak to him first time. What are they looking for?
 You're listening to the Radcast. If it's radical, we cover it. Here's your host, Ryan
 Alford. Hey guys, welcome to the latest in the Radcast. Ryan Alford, your host, the
 talking sales today, talking humans, talking 80 Paul. What's up, Andy? Hey, Ryan, thank you
 for having me on the show. Hey, my pleasure. Sell without selling out. I love the name. I'm digging
 the book. I know you can help a lot of people today with sales enablement.
 Yeah, well, thank you for having me on. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, books are a particular passion
 project. Mine is, is, um, something I asked you once, why did you write this book at this time?
 And I said, look, it's based on all the work I do with companies and salespeople and the
 conversations I've on my podcast as sad fact is we're just not getting any better at this whole
 business of selling. And this was, yeah, my, my book on why that is the case and what we can do
 about it. People still want to talk to people and they still buy from people, people buy from
 people. And I think a lot of that sort got lost in some of the hollow bloom of this great technology
 in middle, which we use in sales, but we saw in the too far down this curve of thinking could
 replace the human as opposed to helping the human do a better job.
 Yes, exactly. I mean, because I don't know, it's funny. Andy, I mean, I consider myself a modern
 marketer and a modern guy and in technology and all that. But all the, you know, AI, VR,
 like, and all the stuff that is interesting, but like, I don't know, it's like sometimes it's,
 it's helpful in certain ways. And then in other ways, it seems to dehumanize certain things. And
 it makes us kind of forget at the end of the day. If we think about what impacts us,
 there's someone on the other end and two robots are doing absolutely everything on the other end
 of that. If we preach all the time like this B to H thing, you know, business to human, like,
 it's another human on the other end.
 Yeah, well, I think one of the lessons that's just sort of gotten lost and it's not
 bleeding specifically marketing and sales and technology, but which is that, okay, we have
 these tools that enable us to send out, you know, mask one is email and make, you know, easily make
 more and more calls we made in the past as like, and the lesson being is just because we can do more
 of these things doesn't mean that we should. And that's, yeah, I think it's hard lesson people
 are actually coming to grips with, especially as the economy perhaps slows down here in the next
 year or two. That's, you know, the idea of just sort of more and more and more being the answer
 to marketing and sales is going to get challenged and it's going to be doing better, not more.
 That's really the key. Yeah. And hey, I knew I liked you, but you're already using one of my favorite
 quotes. I mean, like three minutes in just because you can, does it mean you should?
 I have some isms and some quotes. And if my team heard you say that, they go,
 all right, it's going to like this guy. That's one of my favorite things.
 It's one of mine too. And it's you just see the damage that's done from it. And
 yeah, it's, we're going to hit for a lot of companies as times I said, as we get a little bit leaner
 perhaps in the next couple of years, and it seems like the building consensus on economists,
 they'll have some form of economic slowdown, what's the full recession or even into a stagnation
 period? Companies have been able to say, look, God, we're just really gotten good at filling
 the top of the funnel. And we don't need to be that good at sales because we know we're going to,
 we're just, okay, we'll win a certain percentage of those opportunities.
 They're going to find that's going to get challenged in the next couple of years because
 not going to be as easy to fill the top of the funnel. And there's going to be
 the same number of competitors that exist today competing for a smaller pool of prospects.
 How are you going to win? We got to learn how to actually sell.
 Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. And you know, I see it, it's interesting to hear you frame it
 that way is I see the same challenge being I haven't filled the top. And I think I'm going
 to pull them through the bottom without any of the what's needed to the marketing that gets
 some in the top awareness consideration intent. You know, what I see is, you know, in marketing,
 there's this battle brewing or it's been brewing for years of performance marketing versus branding.
 And, you know, there's been a push the last five years because again, you want to make sale them
 in some way to ROI. And as a lifelong marketer, I understand that. But you do have to build a
 connection at the top of the funnel to get the sale at the bottom. A lot of the times,
 unless you're selling a highly differentiated product that has no competition in others. And
 what is that these days? I don't know. Tell me what it is. And I'll buy. Yeah, I know. You tell me.
 And so I have a little bit of this debate with clients sometimes that, you know, I know you
 want to make the sale or you want to make we've got to make transactions happen. But don't they
 have to be aware of you and consider you and want to do business with you first?
 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in my book, I deal not so much with, yeah, heavily really transactional
 business is something a little more complex selling. But it's the same thing at the top of the funnel
 is as you talk about awareness, interest, intent. And then you start building that connection
 again, right? You make a certain level of connection from the marketing and get some in the funnel.
 And then when they actually talk to a salesperson, I'll start that again. See I build the connection.
 You got to build the trust. You got to use your curiosity to really understand what's really
 important to the buyer to help them make a good decision. Yeah. And I love that. So I'm going to
 tee this up for you, Andy. Author of sell without selling four pillars. I like these. Let's talk
 about them. What are those four key pillars? Yeah. So in the book, I set up this this contrast between
 selling out and selling in. So selling out is the way most of us have experienced salespeople at
 one time or another, which is a salesperson who's purely focused on their own interests, not
 yours as a buyer, right? That, you know, the legendary expression of sale,
 seller with commission breath. They're just there for suede you to buy their product.
 They don't really care what's really important to you because their job is just to persuade you
 to buy their products. On the other hand, I talk about selling in, which is where your job is not
 to persuade somebody to buy your product, but just to listen to your buyers, really understand what's
 most important to them in terms of the things they want to accomplish and then help them get that.
 So it's it's a very different approach to the whole business. And it starts with this idea that
 yeah, these four pillars are selling and are based on innate human behaviors.
 We want to be connected to people. So it's connection, curiosity, understanding,
 generosity of the four pillars. We are wired to want to connect with other people. This is who we
 are as human beings, right? We are wired to be curious from the day we're born and we, you know,
 pop into the light and we see all these people around us we're learning. We're using our curiosity
 navigate this unfamiliar world that we're in. We continue to use that as we grew up. We're wired
 to want to understand other people. And we're wired to be generous. We're wired to want to give
 to help others. It makes us feel good to do that. So what I write about in the book is based on,
 my own experience, experience of many, many, many others and researches. You really have to master
 these four attributes, human attributes. That's sort of it in order to really be successful at selling.
 Yeah. How do you, I'm going to jump around a bit here because I'm going to come back to that.
 But I really like the post that you made on Instagram yesterday. It was about the connection points
 of all of these things and where there were things that dropped off like the tactics that you
 take and how things are connected to other things. How do you, how, within your kind of your
 framework, how do you help others kind of know what all those connection points are or what they
 are or what they aren't? Well, I mean, it's, the pillars aren't meant to be sequential necessarily,
 right? I mean, right. One of the things that you see in sales training all the time is,
 look, well, you've got these, this is your sales process. That's these linear stages that,
 you know, the buyer is going to march through with you, which they don't, right? We know from research,
 we're talking or enforced or another analyst firms that, you know, the buying journeys actually
 is fairly complex, non-linear process that takes place. So the vast majority of sales training says,
 well, hey, you use your discovery, IA your curiosity at this point. And then in the sales process,
 then you start put it away and then we move on to the next stage. It's like, oh, no. I mean,
 you need to be discovering and, you know, continuing to deepen your connection and your understanding
 the buyer up until the point where they sign, right? Otherwise, you're going to miss something.
 So, yeah, I think back to the diagram that the gardener put out in research, they call it their
 spaghetti diagram of the buyer's journey because it's really like this really complex flow chart that
 starts and stops and starts over and and so the connection points are all over.
 But to sort of simplify it is to think about it is the reason we start with connection is that
 connection is how we earn the trust of our buyer, right? We build some level of rapport,
 we find some common ground we can begin to begin to demonstrate our trustworthiness.
 The purpose of that trust is, at that point, it's not that they'll trust us off to buy from us,
 it's that they'll trust us enough to let us stick our noses into their business to really understand
 the challenges they face and the outcomes they want to achieve. And this is a part the sellers
 are, you know, skim over it because they think, oh, if I ask a question of a buyer, they have to
 answer it. It's like, no, they don't, right? I mean, it's like, how familiar to be with someone
 before you trust them enough with the information that's important to you, that's proprietary to you.
 So that trust becomes very important in terms of enabling your curiosity.
 It's your curiosity then that gets you to the stage of beginning to really understand
 what's important to the buyer, but only if this is a really hard part for many sellers is when
 you ask a question that you listen to truly understand the buyer, not listening to respond,
 but you're listening to understand and talk about this in the book. You have various stages of
 understanding the buyers go through, but that becomes a real source of value for your customers.
 You know, talking about B to H, one of the biggest second thing you could help your buyer with is
 make them feel understood, right? If you make the buyer feel like you understand the challenges
 in their objectives, cash, you got a big leg up in terms of ultimately getting their business.
 And then the last pillar is generosity. It's talked about how do you act in a very intentional way
 to help the buyer achieve these things that are most important to them. And so it's very simple
 framework. You listen, you'll understand what's most important to them. You help them get that
 you increase your odds of winning the business. What's your feeling about
 today's tactics, whether it's LinkedIn, whether it's email, whether it's calling,
 you know, I'm sure they all play a role in all four of those in some way, shape or form.
 But is there any formula in your mind or that you talk about the most within all of the tactics
 that are there? No. So I think that, and this is one of the key themes of the book, is I think
 that if there are, let's just say 5 million salespeople in the United States, there are 5 million
 distinct unique ways to sell that exist. And the goal should be for a manager or a business owner
 is to say, how can I help this person that's that selling or even myself, I can help myself if
 I'm doing selling, become the best version of themselves. That's what you want. That may be
 different than, you know, John will be different than Jennifer will be different than Sally and so on.
 And that's that's the goal you're trying to achieve as a sales leader is how can I help people
 become the best version of themselves. That's not just, hey, very formulaic because the same formula
 is not going to work for everybody. Yeah. And in my career, I was, you know, you described
 yourself as sort of the, you know, non salesy person. That was me to a tee. You know, it was right
 about in the book. I went to my first sales training class ages ago, my first professional sales
 job out of college. This is a huge tech company and I thought to myself, after watching videos
 of training, you know, sales trains, like what human being acts this way? I mean, what they were,
 what they were teaching was just so foreign to me in the way that I thought in the way that I
 acted and the way that I interacted with people. I thought it's either going to have the shortest
 career in sales possible or I had to find a way to make it work for me. And I think this is the
 challenge for the vast majority of people in sales is how do I find a way to make this work for me
 that's not so technique-laden, you know, sort of this falling into this or persuasion,
 manipulative type tactics that sellers oftentimes fall into. Interesting. The talk with Andy Paul,
 host of the sales and able to podcast and author of cell without selling out. Andy, like,
 Andy Paul.com, by the way, if you're listening, we'll hit all these at the end, but I like to give
 all the plugs midstream. Hey, it's the marketer in me. And the sales guy, I guess. I don't know.
 I don't love his marketing or sales, but yeah, I like to be a good host of nothing else. Andy,
 what inspires you today? What's your source of inspiration? You know, like, obviously,
 you've done it a long time, but what formulated this journey for you in this knowledge?
 Sir, at one level, it's just this continuous learning, right? It's is, yeah, I never really set my
 career goals based on geez, I want to have this job or make this amount of money. I had
 discovered pretty early on that I was really more motivated by doing something that was interesting
 and something where I'd learned something new. So I look at my own career and I've got
 sort of divided into these chapters, right? You know, my first four years in my career, I was
 selling, you know, good-sized big computer equipment, you know, roomfuls of computer equipment.
 To, you know, big companies. And then, sir, if I went to work for Apple in three early days of Apple,
 and I was doing channel sales, so that was a new challenge for me. And I'd never worked with retail
 distribution and so on. And then, got into large enterprise sales, selling satellite communications
 systems, which was, you know, completely brand new to me. But it was the challenge. So,
 so for me, as, and then, you know, later in my career, I started my own company, which I've had
 for 20 plus years, and then about 10 years ago, got the bug right a book, and something, again,
 a new chapter I thought. Pun intended. What about, what's that? Pun intended. Yeah. And yeah,
 I mean, it's something that opened a whole new avenue of things for me in terms of the book was
 popular, and I hadn't really considered the possibility that it could be. Start, you know,
 building a following online, start my podcast back to 2015, you know, 1100 episodes later,
 we're still, we're close to 1100, we're still at it. And we'd like to do a couple more books.
 So it's just for me, it's always like, what can I learn new, right? And dive into it. And in a way
 that, you know, I think helps my clients and helps customers and helps right now in the last 10
 years, only just trying to help the sales profession in general. What's your perspective on I'm
 gonna, I'm gonna lead the witness. I like to say I build, you build the court case, you lead the
 witness. You're, you're having into podcasting. You've, you know, invested, whether you call it this,
 and a lot of people like roll their eyes when I say personal branding, but obviously you've,
 you know, embraced that. What role do you see? Those types of things that are marketing activities,
 I would probably argue. I mean, marketing and sales as much as I do divide the line between them,
 their one feeds the other. How do you coach people on those, those channels for, you know,
 authority and other ways with which to kind of grow and sell?
 Yeah, actually, it's a growing part of our business to work with people on that because I think
 it's so important. This idea of personal branding. And I understand why people cringe at it,
 but here's the reality. If you're in sales and there was a study that came out about a year ago
 that found that 82% of buyers will look at a salesperson's LinkedIn profile before they speak to
 him first time. So at 82%, let's just assume it's 100% right? Because it's close enough. What are they
 looking for? Well, they want to see what you have to offer. They want to see who you are. They want
 to see if you can be able to add value to them. They want to see if you have a point of view about
 anything having to do with the conversation they want to have with you, right?
 About the industry you serve, the products you sell, whatever.
 Not to say you have to be on authority as the salesperson, but people want to know,
 is this person going to be worth my time? I think this is a part that alludes a lot of people.
 But you have to think about it, especially when you're sale, isn't just some degree of marketing
 too, is you're asking for somebody's time. I'm asking, if I'm talking to a potential buyer,
 I'm asking for their time. And so they're going to invest their time in me.
 So when people make an investment, what do they want? They want to return on that investment.
 So anytime as a seller that you're trying to perspective buyer, you have to look at
 from those perspectives, they've just invested some of their time and attention on me. Am I able to
 give them a return on that? And if not, they're not going to give me any more time.
 Well, part of their decision-making starts with looking at, in case of sales, it's going to be your
 LinkedIn profile. What's this person care about? What this person think about? How can they add value
 to the conversation we're about to have? And if you're just a cipher, then that's not going to
 work in your favor. And increasingly so, because increasing percentage of sellers are committing
 themselves, it's still small percentage, but are committing themselves to become more so
 frequent content creators on the platform. And that's I think is just essential. And it's starting
 to, you're starting to see some divide. We do see at least in our business with
 those people that have embraced that are beginning to see the benefits of it in terms of
 just results for themselves, right? Yeah, versus those who aren't. Yeah. So it's,
 it's just start small platforms out there. Yeah, it could be just going to, initially,
 you're just going to comment on other people's posts. It's great. You don't do that. Find out who
 your buyer's perspective of buyers are going to be, start before you need something from them,
 start commenting. But then what do you care about? You're in this business. What's your opinions on
 things? Put it out there. So I think it's just really essential. And it doesn't have to be this
 all-consuming thing that many leaders worry about. I was person's spending too much time on LinkedIn.
 I would make the argument that within a few years, maybe you'll spend most of your day on LinkedIn,
 because that's where your prospects are. Yeah. So not TikTok yet for your Andy Paul.
 We're looking at it. All right. I was going to lead you there if you didn't.
 And there's still a growing number of people in the sales community who are investing in TikTok.
 Sales talk is what people are calling it. Yeah. Yeah. We'll probably do some in that for sure.
 So I'll stat and I talked about it. I spoke at a FedEx e-commerce event.
 50% of US active users are over 30.
 Yeah. Not the teeny-bopper platform anymore.
 Well, no, then they'll be the same dynamic that's happening with Facebook.
 As the kids are going to start saying, well, just my parents are on TikTok.
 Yeah. Totally agree. I think it will definitely run the kids off, but it's a fascinating platform.
 And the one thing that I find real about it is we're so ADD now and our attention is so
 diverted. I do think that's where it's going to be interesting to see. You've seen it impact.
 You know, Instagram moving to Reels. You see, I think the way people cut content in certain things
 is like getting get to the point quicker. So it's been I think it'll be fascinating kind of the
 impact on on content and our attention spans as much as I hate it. I just think we have
 fleeting attention, don't we? Well, I think we're training generations to have shorter attention
 spans. Yeah. I mean, it's been just a feel like you know, movies and TV shows, the average time
 between cuts between perspectives has dropped over the years. I forget what the exact number is,
 but now it's like the number of cuts is like three times what I was 20 years ago, whatever.
 So yeah, we need that stimulation apparently. Yeah. I think I think the maybe the bigger insight
 here is the reality is these digital natives are getting in leadership positions and making decisions.
 And you know, that the 20, I don't know where it happens. I'm not sure. The decision maker
 could be a 25 year old now. I mean, you never know with some of these entrepreneurs, but you
 let's call it 25 to 40, you know, have grown up with digital and social media and these channels.
 And now they're becoming decision makers that it pretty large corporations. So yeah, you know,
 I think I guess just going where they've where they are and where they're used to being communicated
 with maybe. Yeah. Well, I think the challenge for a lot of people, especially
 let's say on sales were almost familiar with coming into sales is that for a lot of the digital
 natives is just viewpoint just grew up differently, right? Different environment.
 And so when they're thrust into environments, particularly in sales where they need to
 build this connection through a synchronous form of communications like telephone call,
 that's something they don't have a ton of experience in because they've grown up in a
 environment. It's primarily asynchronous messaging based. And so yeah, one of our challenges and
 sales is how do we help teach people to be comfortable in this environment where they have to
 communicate not their abandoning asynchronous messaging at all. But in addition to messaging,
 you have to learn how to build a rapport with another human being and a sort of face-to-face
 whether it's virtual or in person way that perhaps they're not real comfortable with.
 Yeah. How do you feel about, you know, I saw this and I kind of chuckled. I mean, it's been
 a while on a year or two ago, but like sales over the phone is dead. And nothing, let's be honest,
 right? It's kind of like TV's dead. Okay. Well, TV's not dead. It's changed. But I don't know about
 that. I'm feeling you don't either. Yeah. No, it's saying there are any time of a says cold
 calling's dead. Yeah, it shows just how false it really is, right? Yeah. And the way we're doing
 it isn't necessarily great, right? But it doesn't mean it's dead. I mean, you still have this obligation
 to reach out. And as a seller, it has to be great. It'd be fantastic of every, every opportunity you
 had was the result of an inbound lead that's fully qualified. And you just pick up the phone,
 you're talking to somebody expecting to hear from you. Just doesn't work that way, right? It's
 just not the way of the world. And you know, that'd be a utopian environment. I wrote about that. My
 second book would be utopia. If you're a seller for me, it would have been, oh, all these highly
 qualified leads inbound perfect. But in the absence of utopia, you have to do what we have to do.
 And that involves reaching out to people. And yeah, sort of interrupting them in the flow of their
 day, whether it's, you know, phone or a message or email. Yeah. How do you? So it's just how we do
 that is, you know, makes the difference. But anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry. Let's, I'd love to give
 and I, and for everybody, um, listening again, author, Andy Paul, so without selling out the,
 give as we, as we kind of close out a bit here, what are some practical, like, let's give some
 people some real meat here that, you know, obviously reading the book is going to help lead them
 completely to the water and maybe drink a little. But what are some practical ways maybe for cold
 calling and cold warming up cold prospect is just difficult, you know, and, and, and seems
 overwhelming. What are some practical ways, whether calling, whether emailing, whether linked in,
 what are some practical ways that people can do that?
 Well, you got to find what works for you, right? There's some people are just perfectly comfortable,
 pick up the phone and calling people cold. And, and some develop a fair amount of expertise at that,
 what they typically do is they tend to lead with questions rather than, hey, you know,
 hey, that pick it, I get you a bad time, which is the red flag for every every every prospect out there
 is like, yeah, of course you have. But they become good at leading with questions and starting
 conversations that that are not pitch driven. And that's really your goal, right? When you're
 reaching out as, you know, how can I start a conversation with you that doesn't put you on the
 defensive? Now, some people say, I won't warm this person up with an email or I'm going to connect
 with this person, hey, maybe months in advance, I actually want to reach out to them on linked in,
 you know, I don't want to follow this trap that people do on linked in. It's like,
 it's kind of a connection request that I can send you a pitch, right? That's nothing more off
 putting than that. But being strategic about how you build your network and your your territory,
 let's say, quote unquote, territory, because it's not often geographic. But, you know, the list of
 accounts that you're dealing with is, are you going to be strategic? Are you going to start building
 those relationships before you need to call on them so that when you do reach out, maybe somebody's
 familiar with your name, you know, they've seen you, the connection requests I've seen, maybe you've
 commented on some of their posts and they looked at your profile and thought, yeah, when this person
 calls, this could be an interesting conversation to have. So, a couple of things, yeah, just boiling
 down as one is lead with questions, lead with curiosity. How do you make yourself interesting to
 someone else? Be interested in them. The number one way. So, if you want to sort of command,
 start commanding someone's attention, be interested in what they're interested in. And
 best way to start that is ask questions. In my book, I talked about chapter on curiosity,
 the curiosity pillars have six types of questions you can use that are conversation starters,
 or conversation triggers, I'd say. You know, one of them is what I call an insight question.
 And that is a question you're going to ask a perspective buyer about their business that they,
 yeah, reasonably should be expected to know, but possibly don't. And that's a great conversation
 starter. Yeah, for me, when I was, when I do stuff, but was more selling more consulting services
 than I do now is talking to CEOs. Yeah, my question usually was something on lines of, well,
 tell me, so how many hours of selling time does it take you to take a prospect from initial point
 of contact to an order? Probably a lot of blank stairs. A lot of blank stairs. But what they get
 from that question is, oh, I should probably know that. Why is that important? Let's have a conversation,
 then you get into the conversation. So it's just one example. And I'm numerous ones in the book
 about, you know, questions you can use to help people sort of stop and think. And when they stop
 and think, then they're not going to be as defensive in talking to you. Then if you just
 unload a pitch, you know, the shop and throw up approach to sales.
 Everybody's favorite radio station, WIFM. What's in it for me?
 For me, yeah. And unfortunately, the guiding philosophy for many sellers is, yeah,
 what's in it for me? As opposed to, how can I help you get what's important to you?
 Now, is this too generic? Pete, you know, I'm reaching out to somebody. Pete,
 what keep you up at night with your business? No, worst question in the world.
 No, no offense. Absolutely. I'm leading the witness.
 The, the, the usual answer is, well, my kids, my business, my business doesn't keep me up at night.
 Yeah. Yeah. I don't. Unfortunately, it's hard to kill that old chestnut. Yeah.
 Yeah, it's, it's, it's very similar to the question about, you know, what are your pain points?
 What is the pain you're feeling? It's like, yeah, same thing. People aren't feeling pain. I mean,
 they've got challenges. What are the challenges you're facing? How can I help you with that?
 Yeah. Um, yes, is, yeah, we boil it down. The six, I believe the key to success and sales,
 if there is one or several, but one real key is being intentional, right? Don't be robotic. Don't,
 you've got a script, you've got a playbook, just don't follow it. Yeah. To the letter of law,
 what works for you? Why, you're talking to a human being and they've got concerns,
 they've got challenges, they've got aspirations. What are they? What are they? Ask.
 Anyway, find out by asking. Unfortunately, and this is not a ding against marketing, but yeah,
 marketing does a pretty good job. These days saying, look, here's your ICP, your ideal client profile,
 and you're going to call them this enterprise account and there's five key stakeholders we need to
 talk to. Here's the personas for each of those five. Here are the questions you ask. Here are
 the answers you should receive when you ask those questions. It's like, sure, you know, turn
 a salesperson loose and start robotically follow the script. And it's like, great, but now,
 what do you really understand about the buyer when you've done that? You don't understand a lot.
 You might have some information, but you don't understand why that information is important. And
 it's so you have to develop your own style and be guided by philosophy. How can I, how can I put
 myself in a position to help this buyer achieve what's most important to them?
 Do you think, you know, maybe making it topical like the talk of slowdown, talk of recession,
 you mentioned this at the beginning, that I would think that's going to change your approach,
 because I would think especially the larger corporations, the starting to see here and feel
 that maybe a bit. I mean, is that is that negative bringing up negatives and don't need to do that,
 don't need to go there or is it like, or is it you're being observational and you understand what
 they're thinking about? Yeah, I mean, I think you're going to help the buyer understand that you
 you have a sense of what they're going through. And you might even have a way to be able to help
 them navigate going forward. Then that's that's important to bring up. Andy, I can pick your brain
 all day. You've been very generous with your time. And I know everyone would, yeah. Tell everybody
 I've tried to to notate a few times, but let's give everybody, you know, where to keep up with you,
 where to get the book, all those things. All right. Yeah, to keep up with me, LinkedIn is the best place.
 So I post once or twice a day on LinkedIn. So that's real Andy Paul. This is my profile name.
 If you want to find that, you come down my website, Andypal.com. You can download a free chapter
 of my book. And if you want to buy the book, then Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere you buy
 online or in stores, actually, real bookstores, you can buy the book. Awesome. Yeah, listen to my
 podcast. Sales enabled with Andy Paul. Sales enablement. Andy, been very gracious and very insightful.
 I love your approach. It may be a blast to pass. And they seem whatever, but I think it's modern
 to me because I think people need to be more human. And there's a lot of truth there.
 Thank you, Ryan. Really appreciate it. Yeah. Hey guys, you ever to find us at radcast.com.
 Search for sales enablement. You'll find every highlight clip from today's episode with Andy Paul.
 Go to Andypal.com. Find out all the 80 has going on and orders book. You never find me. I'm at Ryan
 Alfred on all the platforms. Go follow me on TikTok blowing up over there. We'll see you next time on the radcast.