The Photographer's Brand: Rediscovering the World Through the Lens with Giovanna Aryafara, E019

In this episode of the Mood Podcast, I sat down with Giovanna Arefara.
In terms of photography, giovanna and I have a lot in common, so it was fascinating to hear her philosophies and experiences behind her wonderful imagery.
We discussed her evolution as a photographer from an art, design and craft background, having been the owner of a successful home living decor brand in Bali for the last decade.
Furthermore, we talked about her business skills, her process behind photography and her thoughts on things like the future of visual arts, photography, etiquette and how to give back with one's craft.
I'm excited to follow on my conversations with Giovanna, especially at her book launch in just a few months time, so please watch out for that on her profiles.
And so, without further ado, here is Giovanna Arefara.
Yeah, you're, I mean the craft side of your.
I guess artwork came first, right?
Is that where photography emanated from, and you're definitely interested in humanities?
Well, it's been a sort of a long process for photography.
My first job, when I was, you know, 17, was in a photography studio in New Zealand.
I was brought up in Australia but I went to New Zealand.
So that was black and white, very, and at the beginning stages.
And then I became a school photographer because I love photography, but it was black and white photography.
And then I was there when it changed to color, which was a really big deal.
It's like oh, this is the end of photography.
Now you know it's going to color.
Ansel Adams would be, you know so upset.
But so I went through that stage that gave me a lot of insight into photographing children, because I did that for about seven years and then I went into homewares photography.
Then I worked with a company in Australia, which I still work with, called Spirit Publishing.
We do cards together and I've been doing that with them for 20 years.
So it's always been there, you know, and doing something a little bit different, a little bit exotic, thinking outside the box a little bit for photography.
So when we came to Bali I've been here for about 15 years we opened up the homeware stores and the photography.
I was putting the photography in the stores and I could see that there's a market for, you know, interior designers and that was fairly new.
I think that's only started, maybe about that time where people are using photography, pieces of photography.
On cushions and no, not on cushions in their house.
Okay, so prints.
Yeah, yeah, like black and white or some sort of feature piece.
So that's sort of how I think my niche market is working with interior designers, with homewares and photography, and a lot of photographers that want to sell their work know to sell it.
It's either in galleries, which they don't like doing because they can't pick where it's going to go in the gallery and also they pay too much.
So the best place is actually homeware stores, because people are doing their own interior design now, not like before you get into a designer.
So a lot of women are really interested in that, want to do it themselves.
So with me designing cushions and throws and being inspired by where travel, bringing that out in the photography, that's where it sort of stem from.
And where did, going back 30 years when you first picked up a camera?
Why?
Why did you pick up camera?
What was the interest that sparked?
I think I actually think it went back to, you know, cartier, brisson, ansel Adams.
Seeing that photography, it was so different to what I'd seen.
So I think that interest was there.
And then when I was in New Zealand, this job offer came to work in a studio and I just thought it was sort of like magical really.
I remember that feeling.
When you're younger, you know your senses are heightened a lot more than when you're older.
But I remember at the time that feeling of like this is so incredible, or printing them, you know, it's sort of like magic.
So I've always loved photography.
But there's been so many changes, you know, even now it's changing so much.
You have to be aware of what's going on and embrace it really.
Otherwise you sort of get left behind.
How do you see the changes that are happening?
with AI, you mean.
AI, mainly AI.
I mean, that's the biggest thing.
That's just impacting our industry, right?
What is your view?
I don't know.
I mean, I changed my camera to an R5, canon R5 mirrorless, and the reason I changed that from the MAP4 was because of, you know, the eye tracking and things like that.
And then I, through a friend, through Mitty actually, she told me I probably should change all my equipment or my gear for a Sony, which I did.
Actually, I changed the Sony R5 mirrorless, but the AI and that's mind blowing.
Yeah, you know, like they actually work out where people, what people are doing, you know if you're walking behind you know a tree, the AI actually works, what they're going to do, where they're going to come back, what they're going to do, and it's sort of.
I found that in my last trip mind blowing and I kept on saying that the whole time.
Like this is amazing.
I just hope it's in focus because it just seems so much easier.
Yeah, like before, I was always sort of trying to get the eye and make it really clear, and with the Sony it was slightly bizarre.
Actually, I couldn't quite get over it.
So we're just looking at the photos now from my last trip, it's sort of like, are they in focus?
Because it was sort of incredible really how it tracked.
But yeah, they said, yeah, it's, you know, they're really really clear.
So I had to look at them.
You know the eyes and but it was just tracking them.
So I think that's pretty major.
That's a big jump.
Is that a?
I mean?
Is it a good thing?
Yeah, good thing or bad thing is maybe we don't have to put a label on it, we don't have to judge it so much.
Feel that you have to keep judging it.
Yeah, that was my first experience, because it was the new camera and I kept on thinking I think I've changed in the way I'm taking photos, Whereas before I spent a little bit more time with people because I was trying to get the focus right in their eye, Whereas I found this time it was just very quick.
You know, I'd just be talking to them and it's like oh, got that one.
So I think it'll take time for me to understand this new system.
Yeah, and whether that will take time away from the connection you have with people or the opposite, exactly.
Because if you don't have to worry so much on the technical aspect and the AI is automated for you, it's taken a task away.
Maybe you can have more.
Maybe, or the other.
You take a shot after the next one.
It depends entirely on your, and I think I have to get used to that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah so people why.
You know you obviously had an interest in photographing children score.
And then now you know, as a portrait photographer, a lot of your work is based out of Africa.
Should we say you know the majority of your work.
Yeah, it used to be India because of the company I was working with in Australia, the card company, so most of it was from India and I used to travel to India.
I used to do all our sourcing in India for the homewares.
So it sort of worked, but they wanted a new collection of cards.
So that's why I went to Africa.
But when I went to Africa and went to the Omo Valley, I was just blown away how incredible they were how artistic.
They are yeah.
In what way?
Well, with their body paint.
That they've been doing for hundreds of years and they're so talented, so creative, but not using anything.
Like you don't see iPhones or iPads with the kids, you know they're sort of very much in nature, inspired by nature, and I just absolutely love that.
What do they use to paint their faces with?
You know the white.
Yeah, it's sort of clay.
It's from the stone.
They grind the stone down, so the stones are different colours.
Okay.
And then they mix it with a little bit of water, maybe some animal fat, just a thing, design it, and often people say, oh, do you do it?
And it's like no way, I couldn't do it like that.
I want to see you doing it, yeah.
And also if you go up to them and sort of change it, they don't like it.
You know, they're the artists you know.
So I find that really incredible and I've got to know them a lot because I've been going back for about six years.
Okay.
And sort of I've known them for when they're quite young.
So when I come back I know the mums and so you go to the same place each time.
I go to different tribes but I've got a connection with one particular tribe With the family.
That's a bit of a long story, but yeah, it's just incredibly inspiring.
Yeah.
But it's a bit difficult.
It's getting more difficult now, I think.
Because of the dangers and the fighting.
There's a bit of danger.
But also now there's a big road that's been built through and they're building, you know, sugarcane factories and they're giving work to the tribes and you see them sort of coming back from the sugarcane plantations and you know they're in old t-shirts, holds in the t-shirt and you see them.
You sort of feel sorry for them.
They look really poor.
But when you go to the tribes with the flowers they just seem so proud of themselves and they're so happy and I just like supporting that actually.
Yeah, so that's why it's changing.
And so where was your last trip over there?
The last trip was Kenya, and then I went through Lamu Island on the way back Okay, which was fantastic.
You didn't want to leave.
And do you normally go with groups or yourself, or mix of both?
Yeah, I've mixed of both.
Yeah, it depends.
If it's very difficult to get to a particular tribe and you can't go on your own, I'll go with a group, but I think, and then I've gone on my own where I've actually hired, you know, drivers and things like that, and that's quite challenging, you know, if a truck breaks down and things like that.
So I think it's getting to the point where I'll end up just doing it on my own, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
And so then, when you have a selection of photos, you do a tour.
Yeah, what then do you do with your photos?
How do you kind of so I just bring them back to.
I've got a little team that I have here and they we've worked together very closely.
They know exactly what I like.
In fact, before I leave, we have a little meeting about what I should shoot, because we know pretty much what my followers are wanting.
Like I've got quite a big following and I've spoken to other photographers and they've said, oh, you shouldn't take any notice of Instagram.
You know, like you put a picture of a cat on there and you can get so many likes.
I don't find that.
I find that they actually direct me quite clearly into the direction I should be going into.
So we discuss that before I leave.
So when I go, I sort of know what I'm looking for.
I know the shots that I'm looking for, yeah.
Can you give me an example, so you?
Know, if people so, how do they direct they?
Just, you know, commenting on a post, or do you reach out to a lot of your followers, or do they DM you or what?
How does the yeah, I get a lot of direct messages and also by the amount of likes, like sometimes you know, 18,000 likes.
And then you know you get 300 comments, yeah, and then direct messages and then they will tell you what they like about that particular photo, what moved them about that photograph.
So I think you get quite directed.
And then I've gone off track a little bit, like I've gone to a country to like I went to the Camargue for the white horses in the Camargue.
I don't know about that, so tell us about it.
Well, there it's an island, it's in the south of France, and they're all white horses and they're all wild horses.
Okay.
And you can actually you take photos of them.
They're super friendly.
It's really incredible because they're not tame, they're wild and they just they have people that sort of look after them, but you get these really amazing photos.
So I decided that I would.
That could work for my genre as well.
You know that feeling of freedom and horses and all the rest of it.
So when I started posting them, you know I was losing my followers at the same time.
And so, yeah, we discuss this a lot.
Sometimes I'll say I want to go to Tibet, take photographs of Tibet, and we'll sit down and they go?
Not really.
That's not really why people want to follow you or even buy your photography.
They've put you into a genre.
Your followers have said this is where we like you to be, and I'm happy about that.
I'm really happy where they want me to be because that's probably the direction that I personally want to go in.
Anyway, it's quite interesting, but you have to take notice, I think.
Yeah, otherwise you'd.
You know, like when people say oh, you know, you can post a cat and everyone will like it.
I don't see it like that.
I feel that I get quite close to a lot of my followers as well.
They've been following me for years and they'll often say to me as well, you know, you go back to what that style and oh, yeah, okay, and they're right.
Do you think you can exhaust that style in that genre, or is it just an endless?
No, no, I try and go out of that a little bit.
Yeah, I test out little things, yeah, like that's why the last trip I wanted to go to the Polkot tribe because it's very difficult to photograph because they're nomads, and when I've come back, they're the shots that I really know because I really wanted to photograph them.
Yeah, they're amazing.
Beautiful.
Can you tell us about the tribe?
Yeah, they're.
Well, they're nomads for a start, so you don't quite know where they are.
So they're not tourists, don't really see them at all.
So they're very traditional.
But they wear these really amazing neck pieces and all the beads mean different colors.
The feathers identify, you know, if the elders or how much they're respected.
So everything is very symbolic of what they wear.
And they wear them all the time, you know, day and night.
And just thinking of taking those photos now, it was just so amazing.
I think it's because they're untouched as well.
But in the black and white photos, when I and the respect they have for the elders, I really like that as well.
What are the challenges that you have when you, other than obviously finding them if they're nomadic, but once you've, once you're there, and especially if it's a new tribe that you haven't been with before, what do you, you know?
Do you get nervous, do you?
What do you make mistakes on?
What do you find that you are really comfortable with?
Yeah, what I feel now not so much before, but what I feel now is that I need to spend more time with them, and if you're traveling in a group which makes it easier, right, because they've got the drivers they'll take you there.
They know where the tribes are, but you really have to get to know them.
You really have to spend more time with them, and that is difficult on your own, but there are some photographers that do that and I really admire them for it.
But maybe being a female could be a little bit challenging as well, but really that's what you need to do, I think, now.
I think that's the art of portraiture to be honest Is not just snapping a photo of a human.
It's building a connection with them before you even pick up a camera Exactly.
So when you do go in these little groups, you don't have time to do that.
Yeah, give me some of your inspirations.
I know you met Mittie, who is one of your heroes.
Who else in the kind of?
In the photography world.
In the photography world that you look up to or have tried to admire.
I've always loved Steve McCurry, even though he's a bit controversial now, but I remember seeing his photography as a travel photographer.
When I first saw it I just I wanted to be like that, I wanted to produce the magic, you know.
And then people say, oh, he set it up.
Well, it's not that easy even to set up shots, but I love his photography.
Yeah, he'd probably be the most influential.
I think and now I do follow other photographers that I enjoy looking at them and what they're doing and how they travel, and I've met some of the photographers as well that I really enjoy.
But I think generally I'm pretty much doing my own sort of thing now.
Yeah, my own genre.
Yeah, yeah, my own brand.
Yeah, that's how I feel, like I'm a bit of a brand now yeah, yeah, well, it's wonderful work.
Absolutely love it.
Thanks.
I hope to see you in Africa at some point.
I need to get back there.
Yeah, well, it'd be great to travel with someone like you.
I think that that's what I was saying before.
I think now you have to think about if you travel with not just a group.
Yeah, you have to think and I think now, if I traveled with someone, it would have to be another photographer who sees the same sort of things and the same sort of energy.
I think that would be really amazing.
Yeah, I totally understand.
Even in a studio, if I have friends who are shooting a studio and here with it's difficult, you know.
You might have different ideas of things and then you might end up copying each other if you're using the same kind of set up right, or you just get in each other's way, or it's just.
You know photography as much as I like and don't like this fact, but it is an individual sport.
Yeah, it is individual pursuit.
So to go and do it with someone else is always actually.
It can be amazing, you can be inspired and you can kind of work for them.
If it's the right person, but it's very, very difficult, yeah.
And I noticed that, coming from the last trip in Kenya and then I went to Lamu Island, and when I went to Lamu I went on my own and, because I'd heard so much about it, for interior designers as well.
Have you heard about Lamu Island?
Yes, I have 13th century Swahili style and yeah, and so I went there just to be inspired, mainly for the architecture, but of course, you know, spotted the mass size as I got there.
And then there was some camels that I think there's like four or five camels on the island and they're beautiful camels.
Like in India, they always have, you know, the spikes through their nose, and you know that's how it is, whereas these camels were really relaxed.
They just sort of like dogs, following the people, you know, on the beach.
So then there's dow boats.
Dow boats is mass size.
There's camels.
So much.
Swahili.
I was in heaven.
I didn't want to leave.
So I just sat and talked to the guys first of all, probably for about an hour.
They were amazed that I was actually so interested in them, because I do follow their journey, what's happening now and how they're losing their land rights, and you know it's a very difficult time for them.
But I'm very interested in that.
So I got to talk to them and then I asked them, you know, whether I could do a little bit of a photo shoot and we'd exchange some of their jewelry.
And so we sort of set this up so this is on my own and we sort of met in the morning and walked on the sand dunes and then I took some photos and then I said oh, come on, let's just go and sit down and talk.
And then I said I took some photos.
And then I said and we're talking about what's happening.
And I said can you express to me how you feel, what's happening to your tribe, what's happening to you and your family?
And he did this incredible position like this and I snapped that photo.
I've shown that photo to people here.
They've been in tears.
I feel like crying now.
Yeah, and what is?
so if I was with other photographers, I'd never have got a shot like that.
No because it's too intimidating.
You know you might be talking to them, the other photographers trying to take the photo, or you know it's all disjointed.
So I think to get that really personal feel, you have to be on your own or another photographer that allows you to have that time on your own, not sort of thinking, oh my God, I better get in there and get that photo because that's a great one, you know.
So you'd have to have a big understanding between each other, which would be magic.
Or you come back to that in a minute, yeah, or you go together, but you are doing separate things.
And then come together and say this is what I experienced today and that is so incredible to experience that these days, in this lifestyle that we have.
Yeah, that's what I would prefer, because I know exactly how you feel and the magic of it you have to feel it first.
You have to experience that right before you get to this point.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
But obviously you got to that point earlier than I did.
Well, I'm less of a.
I guess I'm probably less nice than you.
I'm certainly less agreeable.
And my time is because I don't.
I'd say that's right.
I think that's where I'm getting there now.
My, because I don't do photography full time, so when I do, do it, I'm like nothing.
I need to be so focused.
I can't waste any of my time yeah.
I can't have.
Even if I had my best mate with me, it's like just fuck off for a day.
Just leave me to get there.
And if I miss those types of moments that you're talking about, I'd regret it for the rest of my life.
Like, for me that's everything, and so I just don't ever want to risk that.
But I also want to share experiences with people.
Exactly, it's difficult.
Yeah, so that was my realization.
Actually, when I took that photo, I thought it was a bit of a turning point for me actually.
But now, as you say, you don't really want to do it on your own, you want to experience it with another photographer, but they have to be on the same wavelength.
Wavelength yeah.
And that would be incredible.
So tell me about his story.
So he gives you this reaction, obviously this visceral, emotional reaction.
What is the story behind that?
What is happening to his land?
To the Maasai.
Yeah yeah Well, the new Prime Minister, we're not getting into politics, but a lot of the land from the Maasai is now very valuable because it's got a lot of tigers and lions and there's a big market for trophy hunting.
Yeah.
Like they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to go there.
So what they're doing is they're trying to move the Maasai off the land, and it wasn't that long ago that they came with tear gas and machine guns and shot some of them, and there was 11 elders I mean, you can read about this yourselves that wanted to actually face and say you can't do this, this is our land.
And the 11 of them, all the elders, all got arrested and put in jail.
Wow, yeah, they just relocating them without any animals because cows and they're just losing everything, and that's why they're sort of moving to places like Lamu to try and make some money.
Yeah.
But yeah, it's just tragic yeah.
And purely because of trophy hunting.
So trophy hunting, oh God, that makes it even worse yeah.
Not even for commercial purposes like agriculture or setting up factories or you know, they're kind of modernization that you see with many other tribes.
It's fucking trophies.
Yeah, trophy hunting is a very big thing, and so, talking to them about what's happening, and they just feel that there is no help.
That's what they said to me that no one will help.
And the people that do want to help they just get arrested and taken away because they don't have any land rights.
And that's happened a lot with the tribes, though, even in the Omo.
They're losing a lot of them because they're not really well educated.
So you know how is education and they're not being educated.
So you know they just come in and sort of taking their land.
So that's why I think it's for me, when I talk to them about taking their photos, it's sort of like documenting them as well.
Yeah, yeah, timeless documentation, because, before you know it, they won't be around.
No, yeah, or there'll be sugar plantations and things like that to try and earn some money.
Yeah.
So that's my drive as well, for my genre of photography is to try and capture as many tribes that are being lost to either that which I didn't know.
It was because of trophy hunting.
I just thought it was just general modernization which we see across all kind of authentic tribes around the world.
It's just as the world gets bigger, as the world gets more modern and westernized or globalized, you end up seeing just a decline in these yeah ancient and fascinating cultures subcultures, yeah yeah, and they don't have IDs or passports, so they don't they actually don't have any rights at all.
Yeah.
They don't even know when they're born.
And they can't even say this is our land, because they've got no proof that it's their land or you know, especially if they're nomadic.
Yeah, yeah, what is so?
I think that photographers, the good photographers, are sort of keeping that understanding and going there and talking to them.
They really love it, if you're interested.
Yeah.
A lot of photographers are uninterested though.
No, a lot of photographers turn up with a camera in hand, going to like.
I mean it's.
I find that really upsetting.
It's awful yeah.
It's.
It's rude and obnoxious.
And another reason why I sort of like to go on my own.
Yeah, yeah.
I just did a video about this.
Actually, I don't think we've released it yet, but just just going into a scene or going on to especially especially portrait photography, I mean, yeah, do you have much like daily?
Hands on involvement with bungalow living.
You do.
Oh, bungalow living, Not as much as I used to.
Yeah, I used to be very involved.
I'm still involved, but I set up my own company as well, my own foreign investment company for the photography.
So that was a really good move because I can do a lot more.
Yeah.
But yeah, I'm still involved in, you know, designs and samples, but not as much.
I'm going to probably set up my own with the Giovanna photography.
I'll probably do a little collection for for myself now, spitting up a little bit.
But I always told my husband that when I got to a particular age, that I would be pursuing more of photography.
That's my future.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's why this year I've been traveling a lot to try and get a bank of photos.
More content.
So that next year I don't have to travel so much.
I'm going to concentrate more on Bali, ok.
Yeah, so when you're on location, and you're with a tribe or people that you know you want to photograph.
What is the technical process that you go through?
Do you, do you set much of it up, or is it?
Is it just kind of your snap?
While you can, or Probably both.
Yeah, yeah, because you've talked about Steve McCurry, who I think one of my biggest here.
I don't, I know he's controversial, not quite sure why.
I think he's a little bit, I don't know, I don't haven't seen much about him, but yeah.
People have said he sets stuff up, so what?
Like if you have that easy to set it up, I mean you have to have a vision.
He set it up looks ridiculous.
Yeah, yeah, you have to have a vision.
You're not copying anyone.
It's like no, I want, I want this.
Yeah, this idea, I think it's like, but also his lighting, you know, and he's using real people from that area or from that location.
It's not like he's getting models in and doing it's like people don't say that about fashion shoes.
So it's all set up.
Yeah.
Well, you know, most of photography is, unless you're a documentary photographer, right?
And then even then you're in deliberately in an environment which is, you know, contrived in itself.
So yeah, I like it when people say that, but yeah, so you kind of have to do your own thing, really Don't?
you have to do your own thing, and yeah, and he's.
He's amazing.
So you, you know you're obviously talking to these people very carefully.
Do you direct them much, Some of them, or you know you have an idea about how you want them to pose.
They're all different.
You know, different tribes are sort of different Some of them.
You just sort of follow them around.
There's a big gap between them and us and then there's other opportunities.
But you have to go back and know them.
You know, like I've, I've known them from before.
I've met, I've got to know the mothers and things like that.
They're the best ones when they recognize you.
Right.
You know sort of.
They even have a nickname for me, which is.
Nakalui.
What does that mean?
Nakalui being lost in the forest.
I'm always sort of wandering on my own away from the other photographers.
Nakalui.
Yeah, nakalui, so they're the best shots.
Yeah, the best shots.
But yeah, sometimes you'll see the lighting's nicer over there.
You need to spend more time.
Really, I need to spend probably two weeks camping with them in the future, because you get to know the lighting and to relax with them.
They're the best shots.
Yeah, I told you.
So it's a bit of both, I suppose Speaking of best shots do you have any like favorite shots of yourself?
Well, yeah, I do.
I do have quite a few favorites, because you did ask me that before.
There's probably quite a lot that I like, but I do bring them out.
This is only like a photocopy, so it's not a very good.
So these are two that I particularly liked.
We'll put these on the screen as well, for people watching and you probably wonder why it's one of my favorite photos, because I've got so many beautiful ones, but I particularly like this and this got a really incredible reach for me on Instagram because people seem to have picked up on what happened.
So on this photo it's a little girl.
I was at Lake Takana actually doing a little photo shoot and this old man came past with his daughter, this little girl, and she just was standing there.
She didn't want to keep walking, she kept on just staring at me and he came over and he said would you photograph my daughter?
He said she's never actually quite intrigued because she's never really seen a white like Westerner before, and she's sort of intrigued at what you're doing.
And I thought, oh my God, this is a pretty amazing opportunity.
So I said, yeah, you know, can I take a photo?
So I took this photo and one that I thought was so amazing is that she's dressed like this all the time, like with all this beadwork and this beautiful headdress.
But it's the expression on her face that it really inquiring as to who are you, and I'm looking at her and I just snapped that photo at that moment.
But I always remember that second I took that photo and how intrigued she was and I looked at her so and then I showed the father and he just absolutely loved that photo.
It's wonderful the thing that sticks out.
So she wears this every day.
Yeah, the thing that they don't take this off and that the parents make these, but they don't take them off, because that's part of their wealth.
Yeah, I mean, the thing that's that makes this photo is her expression.
It's her expression, not what she's wearing.
It's her expression is amazing and sometimes I'll post a photo and think most people probably won't pick up on that, but with this one, 18,000 people did and I thought that was amazing, that they actually picked up on that expression in her face.
I love it when you can see the photographer, but isn't it a really simple photo though?
I mean it's really simple, but it's capturing that second, that little, yeah, but humans aren't simple, and that's the beauty of portrait photography is that, like aesthetically it could be simple, like in terms of the technique or the whatever, but when you, when you have the eyes and you think about what, who that person is, what they thinking, what they go through, their emotions, their thoughts, intelligence, whatever their language, you know you have all of that in someone's eyes.
And the dead standing there.
You know, he was really old, but he was so proud, you know.
And you have your own experience surrounding this photo, so it's even more powerful.
Yes, exactly, and also it was lucky because it was actually near the lake, so I shot up a little bit, so the background, you know that's always perfect, isn't it?
Yeah?
And then this was the other one in the same area, but I remember taking this photo as well of her.
She really wanted me to take a photo because she's an artist here, and then I went over to move this because I thought, oh, that looks funny, sort of on her nose, and I went over just to move it and she stopped me and she looked at me like this is my art, just take it as it is, I love that bit.
I think that's what makes the photo.
I tried to move it.
Like hang on.
And she just sort of like, no, this, if you want to take my photo, you take it as it is.
You have all of these curves and these lines, and then you've got this, which is just and she's just stood so still for me to take that photo, take that, and then I showed her actually both of them.
What is in her head?
Is it my drawer?
Is it?
Yeah, yeah.
They put clay in there.
It's like a red clay.
Yeah, yeah, well, in that area there's no water.
It's pretty sad around that area actually, because all they eat is fish.
Nothing grows here.
It's one of the hottest places in the world it's sort of on the equator and so all they have for breakfast, lunch and dinner is boiled fish, so it's becoming a really big problem with the kids.
Yeah, like the kids.
Sorry, this is Omo Like Takana Takana.
Yeah, this is in Lake Takana and in these kids it's so incredible.
But when you think of the life that they live as well, and the parents, the way they put the beads and the decorations, it's quite humbling.
Yeah, so I enjoyed that.
And this is popular as well with your audience.
Well, I did this one and the other one I did of her where I saw her later, where they love the watch straps it's a real sort of fashion symbol and they trade beads but also if they can get a little watch strap, they love it.
And I saw her later and she had the watch strap there, the Rolex watch strap, and I took a photo straight on with that and that was another shot that I really loved.
Yeah, kids expressing their creativity is amazing.
You have two children of your own.
I do.
I have two children, yeah.
Do you photograph them much?
Well, no, they're a lot older now.
Like they're in their 30s and 40s, but they're also yeah, my daughter's very creative, she's an artist.
She actually came with me to the Omo and she set up little art classes for the kids, which was really nice.
Cool, yeah, awesome.
When you kind of get these photographs and you decide what to do with them.
I know you're doing a book at the moment.
Is that correct?
Is that your?
first book?
It is a first book.
Yeah, tell us about it.
I've had three publishers ask to publish a book for me.
But I'm self publishing this one because I feel there's two more restrictions and they dictate you a lot and then you have to buy the book from them.
So it's sort of self published and it'll be.
We nearly finished it.
Images with soul tribes of Africa.
It's called.
Okay, so across different tribes, essentially, In Africa, my favorite ones yeah.
And talk to us about the process of doing, because there's a big task, right.
The book Doing a photo book.
Yeah, well, the main thing is to find someone who can publish it.
So we first of all looked at China, because that's what everyone recommended to go to China.
They're very cheap actually to get them from China, but I sort of always like to support where I live, but that was the recommendation.
But we found them a little bit difficult to communicate with.
And then, luckily, someone came into my gallery local Ted his name is, and he has published, I think, three books in Bali and he recommended a place in Jakarta.
Okay.
So two days later we went over there to Jakarta and met them and they were brilliant.
Oh my God, they were so amazing.
So professional.
Yeah, cheap, they specially no, not cheap.
They specialize in coffee table books and the paper we talked about, you know, the absorption on the paper and the cover and thickness, absolutely professional.
So much fun.
They were incredible.
So we basically came back.
They gave us a recommendation for a company to do all the layout for us.
Who's in Jakarta but also comes to Bali, so we met him professional, and so between them it's just been amazing.
Yeah, their guidelines, but you know I just choose the font.
The font's so important and sort of gave an example mainly of the style of the book and they've just gone with it.
It's amazing.
It's amazing living here yeah.
I had everyone to move here?
No, don't yeah.
So it's, and also to choose the photos.
I think it's about 210 pages, but they said oh, how long will it take you to choose the photos?
It was really easy.
Yeah, we just went through it, Cause we actually have on our website the most popular photos, so we just picked all those ones.
Oh, okay, because they're the ones that people had been asking.
Okay, and we had to keep on track a little bit with that.
It's not to write too much it's a coffee table book and not to get so much into all the you know the historical side of it, because there's people that are really good at that.
So we tried to keep it more to pretty much what people have been asking for.
Yeah, when is that released?
In October.
You'll be invited of course Awesome.
Yes.
We will definitely buy a copy.
I can't wait.
Yeah, are you going to do a book?
I would.
I would like to yeah, Cause I was thinking.
Cause I can give you all the recommendations.
Yeah, I was going to ask you.
I was interested when you talked about this company to Carthen.
How impressed you?
are of them.
Yes, very impressed.
I'd love that recommendation Cause.
cost is obviously important, but you usually pay for what you get.
Yeah so especially if you could go and if we live here and we can go to Jakarta and actually be with them.
Exactly, we were here one day.
We flew there in the morning and they're very hospitable, you know, and they bought a lot of their other stuff in.
I was amazed at how professional they were and great, and since then they've just, you know, been really helpful.
That's but when you're set coming back.
So we've been doing the writing, we send it to them and then they send it back with that font and the spaciousness and everything it's like oh my God, it looks so professional.
Oh it's exciting.
Yeah, yeah, but easy yeah.
So I'm sure you'll be bringing your book out soon.
Well, I love your photography actually.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, I like it a lot Working hard, working Kind of doing the same thing as you like, trying to get as much content, and doing as many trips as we can this year.
And where do you go?
All over.
Yeah, I'm focusing.
I got to a point where I was I want to go here and I want to go there, and but there was no cohesiveness to my images or the series of images.
Exactly, they were just individual series.
Yeah.
So now you know, you start thinking about okay, what is my work about, what am I trying, what is my voice here, what am I trying to do?
And so we've been doing more Indonesia, and because I love this country so much and there's so many like interesting subcultures here, so, yeah, I think this year, next year, we're just going to keep kind of exploring more and more of Indonesia.
And then, yeah, I'd love to do a book one day.
I'm curious as to when you get to a point that you know that you want to do a book or can successfully put a book together.
The one thing they ask is how many copies do you want?
Right, you know, because it's a different price.
Yeah.
So from 500, 700,000, 1500.
So I just asked the obvious question you know, what's the average book?
How many do sell?
What is the average?
And they said 500.
I thought, God, that's not many, that's not many at all.
So we just looked at the prices, so we just sort of went through our list of people who have been asking you know, when is your book coming out?
Are you going to do a?
book.
That's wonderful, yeah.
Yeah, and we could sell 500 pretty pretty much straight off the bat.
So that's why I decided to self publish it.
Yeah, yeah, because you've already got that market data right.
You've already got the followers and we know what they want.
Yeah, you know, they've actually, as I say, through Instagram, through private messages, we sort of know what they want in that book, so it's been quite easy to sort of put that together.
Why do you think your followers follow?
you Probably.
The key is that they mix it with interior design as well.
It's not just photography.
Okay.
And that's and I shoot for that as well Like I really love documentary photography and sometimes I take those shots.
You know, I'll get on the ground and the kids are running and I'm shooting up and I look at them and think, oh my God, that's such a great photo but no one would buy it.
Mm.
Yeah, so I shoot for people's homes.
Okay.
And they get inspiration from my photography for their homes.
Okay, because we get lots of like.
I'm honestly amazed that we get orders from all over the world, like from America and for Africa, and I always say to my staff every day, because we have a meeting every morning, that's amazing, you know.
That's just amazing that they're actually buying from me.
I'm in Bali and there's so many photographers out there, so why do they do that?
It's because they're inspired by interior design, their own home and the feeling and a certain look, and I've gone into that, tapped into it.
Interesting.
That's why I have to be careful when I go for photo shoots.
That's why we have a big discussion before I leave.
You know, we print them out like this actually, we just print them out and we go, yeah, and I go there.
So when I go to the photo shoots I know exactly what I want to shoot, and then you go off a little bit on spontaneous sort of photos.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah.
So, other than the photography book, what does-?
And then I've done my affirmation cards.
Ah yes, which is one of my biggest sellers.
Tell us more about those, and.
I sell them in Iceland.
I sell them all over the world.
Um, yeah, well, they're actually made here as well.
I could have got them made in China a lot cheaper, but I wanted to again support the cottage industry.
So each box is actually handmade in Bali, each card is printed and they actually they've got a little soft edge around them.
Well, that's cut by hand.
Wow.
And then there's a little stand, a little wooden one, that's all made and it goes in there Affirmation cards.
And then there's little quotes on the back, Like you are enough, you are good enough, you know that type of thing.
So, um, yeah, so they're little cards that you know we get orders from everywhere.
Again, I think that's amazing.
Just affirmation cards.
You know, they're quite a big thing now, Very new age, but people really love them.
And you sell those on through the the home where through bungalow living, or you sell it through Bungalow living.
Do sell them, okay, but we sell them online as well and in the gallery, yeah.
And.
I get a lot of messages from people who will actually say how much the cards have helped them and how they've given the cards to somebody else.
They've gifted them to somebody else, and then that person sent a message to me, and so it's quite beautiful.
I love that.
Yeah, yeah.
Are you proud of what you do?
Yes, I always say it's about sharing your joy, and I think that that's my life now is I want to just share my joy.
Yeah, and sharing what I do, bringing joy to people that put the photographs in their homes, and messages.
I get from people to say, when I wake up in the morning, I just want to see what photograph you put there and I just say thank you, it's a nice place to be.
That's what photography brings to you as well.
But you have to find your market.
You have to find your brand.
Do you give any of your photos back to the people that you photographed when you returned?
Do you do you?
Not really.
I know a lot of photographers do that.
I have gone back and produced little booklets and have shown them.
But I know that photographers will go back and show them all.
But there's a small group of people that I've shared with.
They're the ones that I've sold the photos.
I will go back and I'll also give them something as well to thank you, and I do sort of give back a percentage of my of what I sell.
There's a certain percentage that I use that I don't say too much about it, but there's a little bit on my website about how I do give back, but probably more than what I say.
So, speaking of giving back, what can you advise, like any kind of piece of advice for people who want to do what you want to do Butting photographers who look at you and go.
I want to do that.
Can you give any like?
Well, I think you have to be authentic, and I think you have to really have the passion to do that.
It's not that easy, though, because most people have to survive, right, they have to have a job, and I'm at a good time in my life where I can travel and I can spend some time.
It's a little bit of a luxury to be able to do, to have that freedom, to be able to travel.
You're at the same stage, I think.
But for young ones, it would be very difficult.
Yeah, because these types of trips cost money.
Yes, yes, they do.
And even when on your own, they cost a lot of money.
In fact, they could even cost more.
I mean, you're talking $20,000, $25,000, you know to go and do this.
And I must admit, I am always amazed when I do talk to other photographers and I say to them you know what are you doing with photos?
And they go oh, just friends, or flicker.
And I'm thinking you know that's.
Flickers are still around oh yeah, whereas I feel you know that my photography pays for my equipment, pays for my flights and also I can give back as well.
Yeah, that's important.
Absolutely.
Yeah, very important.
What can?
We the people say to you oh, how do you give back?
It's not that easy.
You can't just go.
You know these people don't have bank accounts.
You know you can't just send the money.
And if you do send the money that can cause problems.
There's a lot of psychology involved in that and what I have done to help them is actually worked.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's one of the best ways us, as photographers, can give back is a sharing your work.
Yeah.
So you know, increasing awareness out there of certain difficulties that these people are going through.
Yes, and helping certain charities that you know the money goes direct to the tribe or to the people.
Yeah, and as your audience, to help give back or to help you know these causes.
I think one of the good ones I really like is survival international, because they do.
They're very good at what they do and I do support them with tribal rights because they have lawyers and they have a very big setup and the money definitely goes to the tribes.
It's something that you have to look into.
Personally, I like to give the money direct into the hand as well, which I do, but yeah, I think tribal survival international probably be a really good one that I'd recommend.
Okay, We'll try and link that then at least when we post it, so people can give if they want to give or buy some of your stuff.
We'll wait for the book.
Yeah, Because then we know it's going into good hands.
Yeah, let's finish off.
I wanted to ask a question that actually I ask most people, and that's how do you define success as a photographer, or do you not even worry about that?
For me, success as a photographer is that well, you have to fund your photography, that's for sure.
I think, pretty much, yeah, that your photography can fund your travel and can fund your equipment.
Otherwise it's a very expensive hobby.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way of looking at it just maintenance of your passion.
Yes.
Yeah, well, we also have a tradition on the podcast where we get a guest to write a question for the next guest, and so our previous guests I've got a question from her here.
So I'm going to ask it to you.
I don't want to put you on the spot, but hopefully it's an easy question If you could collaborate with any artist on a photography project, who would it be and what skill set would they possess?
Who would it be?
Well, I could say Steve McCurry, but I know that he's probably too famous now.
No, it's just hypothetical.
Yeah, I'm hyper-phedic.
Why him?
Why skill set would he give you?
Oh, I would just love to have conversations.
Right yeah.
And like I've seen some of his work from Myanmar, which I love, going there, yeah, just finding out, just having a conversation with them and talking to them and maybe photographing near him would be really fantastic.
I'd love to do that.
What else was the question?
Who would you want to collaborate with, and why, and what skill set would they possess?
Oh, okay, Collaborate with someone who's passionate about photography I think we sort of touched on that before that someone's sort of on the same wavelength and understands photography the same as me.
That's who I'd love to collaborate with.
Yeah, it's few and far between yeah.
Few and far between and also different countries.
So maybe it would be you let's do it.
I'm up for it.
Well, the kind of final question I had was from your big audience that you've garnered over your years and your amazing work.
Is there anything you think that they would want to ask you If they were present here today?
Is there any question that you think that you would answer or that you think that they would want to ask you?
Someone would want to ask me as an example.
Yeah, I mean, I know you get DMs and comments and stuff, but if they saw Giovanna on a podcast and go, you know.
I want to ask her this question face to face.
Well, I do get asked lots of questions Like how do I travel and you know how?
Yeah, a lot of people say I wish I had your lifestyle, you know.
So how do you do that?
Well, you have to be able to fund it, basically, yeah.
So I think you have to work through your brand, you have to work out yeah, it's definitely the difference between a hobby and actually being able to Be able to travel.
And also, it's important to me to have enough money there to give back as well.
It's not just about me.
The part of a lot of the joy for me, which you'll see in my book, who the book is dedicated to Is someone from the tribe that has changed my life and has explained a lot about what they go through, and that's where I'm giving back as well, and that's it complete joy as well.
You know that you have enough money to do that as well.
Yeah it's also a whole whole collection of things.
Yeah not just a small thing and it's, and it takes time to build that up right, Especially now.
Yeah, I think it's really difficult.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because people just snap off anything now because it's so easy.
So you can get very caught up in that, just taking photos of this and the other.
But, as you know, to get shots like this it takes time, it takes a lot of trust and and feeling and and that.
That.
That definitely, like you know when I'm saying you know you'd want to go and spend a week or two weeks with the tribe, we can't just go and sit there.
You have to have people that can drive you there, people that can cook for you vegetarian, you know.
So all of that's very expensive, but that's why I was thinking it.
You know, to collaborate with someone.
Now I think you sort of nailed it there.
Yeah, you can't really do it on your own.
No, and, but you can't really do it with other people that don't get it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think the.
Because I know, I know yeah, we have a lot in common terms of how we do projects and how we go and take photos.
So I know exactly what it's like.
Yeah, and wanting to just have that space.
Yes to, to create and to connect.
Yeah but also like share that experience, come, come together and they go.
What did you get today?
Or, you know, just share the whole, the whole project with someone else, yeah, who respects that process and understands it.
I mean, how many fixes and guides have you been with in like, oh, they don't quite get what I need to do here, and some that they just get it straight right.
I need to you know this, even just times of day, and what you need to say and just putting people at ease.
And so yeah, it's, it's takes time to kind of find those people and get that empathy and understanding, but it's.
I think that's part of the, the joy in the art as well.
No one ever sees right that your audience will never see that unless they're right there with you.
Yeah, but that's cool, that's.
That's nice bit about it.
It's just that that's the real joy of it for me as well, and the people they do it with or do it for or interact with Exactly.
Yeah, been wonderful to have you on.
Yeah, it's been really great to talk to you as well, and I've learned a lot about you and I do follow you, by the way.
Oh, great.
I love all your podcasts?
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Yeah, well, if you have any, Any recommendation for people or friend photography friends that would be interested in coming on in Bali?
In Bali, or actually I've started doing.
Well, you know, daniel Corden, yeah, but he's so busy like I've been trying to get he sees one of my Favorite photographers now Is he just as a person.
Yeah, I haven't met him, but he's, he seems he'd be one of the most generous photographers I've ever met.
Wow, just in knowledge and His whole way of being he just wants to share everything is amazing.
Yeah, I'm gonna get on he is Like.
I did a shoot with him and I got some really, really good shots, but he's just such a nice person, very interesting.
It's so incredible in his field.
Yeah, he would be the one you want to get in well.
I nearly got him in, and then we just, he's just always away and he's always just doing.
Very successful, how far?
And he's got three travels.
Yeah, so I don't know Shooting with him.
I think it was like last year or something.
He just had a baby Clearly loves.
His passion is is yeah, yeah.
What is the Giovanna in five years?
Like, what are you doing?
Same thing, or you do you have plans for longer term plans with the photography?
I next year.
I wanted to spend more time in Bali.
That's.
The next role was to to finish this book and then probably the next book would be on Bali.
Actually, images were sold, it'll be the same hitting but Indonesia or or Bali, and then I'll do one in India and then Myanmar, so it's a series of books wonderful.
So that's pretty much the next five years is what I'll do, and have my gallery and have coffee, if you yeah.
And if people are in Bali watching this have to go.
What is your gallery called again?
Is it Giovanna photography gallery?
Yeah, it's wonderful people need to go and you get a free, free coffee.
Yeah, yeah, free coffee.
Yeah, just say your name.
You just just to sit in there and yeah, decorate the mood podcast and you get a free coffee.
Yeah, yes, yeah we need, we will come and visit.
And even if it's not, before your book launch.
We would definitely be there for for whenever that comes out.
So thank you so much for coming on.
We've got you here and it's been an absolute pleasure very interesting for me as well.